Mgm's Egypt Mafia - Over

[The Fonz]

The only thing I'd want to say for definite is that if we have a cop claim (after D1) we shouldn't wait any longer than that day to use the revival ability. I wouldn't rule out multiple scumgroups to make the 'Revive a NK' plan less effective.

[The Fonz]

Oooh, the tension.

[The Fonz]

This is kinda hard. So people won't even know if they've been nightkilled until the translation is complete?

[The Fonz]

Hmmm. So I'm guessing those who were NKed were PMed to that effect.

[The Fonz]

ah, it's in the first post. Gotcha.

[The Fonz]

Don't see why we shouldn't play Mafia whilst we're translating.

Original Roll String: 1d18

1 18-Sided Dice: (4) = 4

[The Fonz]

Vote: inHimshallibe

[The Fonz]

Do you think it might mean Yos WAS the Pharoah? I mean, Mgm did say we'd be surprised. One death is not that surprising.

[The Fonz]

I think the Yos revival is an interesting one. He's definitely a good player, and the n1 death amkes me thik he's less likely to be scum. I think it might be an idea to wait one more day- if there's only one death tonight, that reduces the chance of him being a crosskill victim, which is useful info. Of course, there's always the chance Mgm made him some kind of scum role with an inbuilt N1 death to confuse us, but i don't think it's that likely.

[The Fonz]

That scum

can

fake an information role doesn't mean that it's the best move for a town role to full-claim, though.

[The Fonz]

Except that it looked like you were, in fact, rushing into what his information told him (if he's telling the truth) was the wrong decision. Do you really feel he ought to have waited until after you'd quickrevived?

[The Fonz]

I'm with RafK 100% on this one. It's not like we can't revive tonight's NK if need be. If we revive someone else, and then Yos comes up town, then we can lynch RafK.

Suspicious of those pushing for a quick revive, think at least one might be Yos' scumbuddy, have to do a re-read to see who's sincere but wrong, and who's scummy.

[The Fonz]

it is necessarily incriminating. People have different points of view. The thing that is incriminating is the fact that some people are not taking into consideration what RafK has to say. I'm not saying you have to believe he is telling the thruth, I'm just saying you have to loook into it.
.

Usually, when you find a head of steam building up behind a bad idea, there are a few people who for whatever reason genuinely think it'll be of benefit to the town, and one or two scum who are on it because it will actually benefit them.

With that in mind,

Vote: Nanook

. Niempie looks fairly genuine, Albert doesn't look any scummier than he normally does, Nanook looks like he's just kind of agreeing with everything Niempie says thus far.

Unvote, Vote Nanook

[The Fonz]

I don't think it's off at all.

[The Fonz]

FOS: Albert

for the mass OMGUS.

[The Fonz]

Because it's quite obvious what it is that they find scummy.

[The Fonz]

Confirmed, PM received, ready to go.

About that revive... Reviving someone nightkilled rather than someone lynched makes sense, obviously, and we can probably afford to wait until after there's been a couple of nightkills too.

Good points.

During pre-game, you appear to broadly agree with RafK about waiting until there's a couple of nightkills before deciding who to revive. Then day comes, and all of a sudden you seem desperate to revive Yos:

I think we should revive Yos. He's a good player, and he might have some abilities. Add in the fact that we won't know who dies until we use our revive ability. It's way too dangerous to revive a claimed cop when we aren't even sure there is a cop, or if the power role claim is even true.

Revive: Yosarian2

That he's a good player has nothing to do with his alignment. And why are you trying to suggest he might be a power role?

RafK breadcrumbs in 177 that he has some reason to not want Yos revived. As he notes, you come out with 'We've covered all that, we should definitely revive Yos,' which looks to me like an attempt to curtail discussion and press on with a quickrevive.

Then you rolefish blatantly.

RafK comes out with this:

No, you see, I can? It's called "I have secret information and the scum doesn't need to know exactly what it is". The roles of the dead will be revealed at some point, so my statement here is verifiable. When an information role says "I have information!" and someone's immediate reaction is to try and get more information out of them, that reaction to my mind is scummy. Spilling more info than necessary on day 1 is bad for the town.

QFT.

Nightson was clearly FOSing everyone who was pushing the quickrevive.
YogurtBandit voted you because your vote on Nightson (which you said was self-explanatory- pot, kettle, anyone?) was clearly OMGUS.
Zindy said your post 215 reeks of scum. Honestly, look at it. Are you telling me you don't see what's scummy about this?

This is wrong wrong wrong. You claim that we have nothing to gain from it because we won't gain any information. WRONG! If Yosarian is a power role, he might be the one to protect our necks tonight or investigate a player. Unless that is counter-productive to your agenda ?

Why do you keep harping on about the possibility of Yos being a power role? Why do you basically suggest that RafK is scum for not wanting to revive your scumbuddy, when it's exactly what I'd expect a pro-town player in his position to do?

[The Fonz]

unvote, vote Nightson

I'm actually fine with a cop with a guilty claiming day one in this setup. They can't exactly NK you night one with the revival still available, can they?

I'd suggest not claiming your name today.

[The Fonz]

Because you thought they might no-kill in that scenario? Or something else?

[The Fonz]

Like what? The point of discussion is to arrive at the correct lynch. Discussion for any other reason really doesn't help the town. Could you suggest a specific thing we ought to discuss that cannot wait until tomorrow?

[The Fonz]

I'm going to wait and see how Nightson responds before commenting on potential sanity issues.

[The Fonz]

RafK: Is your information Yosarian-specific, or Night 1-specific, or before-revive-specific, or some other thing? In other words, suppose the Night 1 death were let's say The Fonz, and nothing else changed; would you still be saying what you have been?

THis sounds a bit rolefishy to me. Why does that matter?

[The Fonz]

I'm egyptologist Howard Carter (the one who discovered King Tut's tomb) and Albert is either lying or insane (nonsane cop).

Albert. Flavor claim. Now.

I'd rather he didn't, at least not immediately. What's your actual role?

[The Fonz]

Pinky- he pretty much had to claim there. THere was a guilty cop investigation on him. There's also the possibility of safeclaims, though without wanting to give too much away, Howard Carter does not sound like a role that would be in this game to me.

[The Fonz]

I think we have a standoff here. Each gives the appearance of believing that the other will change his story based on what they themselves reveal.

[The Fonz]

I said your information will confirm my flavor. I didn't say it would confirm our alignment.

Look, Nightson, I'm not stalling, you are. You have a guilty investigation. You are on the chopping block. If you do not reveal your claimed information, you will be lynched regardless.

1) Don't try to threaten me into revealing my information, I'll do it when it's most beneficial for the town, which is

not

before you flavor claim

Why are you so adamant that it's to the town's benefit that he jump first? As far as I can see, it makes at best no difference- at worst, you can change your story to fit his flavour.

[The Fonz]

You don't know what your own role is called?

[The Fonz]

unvote

whilst I think this one thru. When Nightson claimed power role, especially with info on Albert, I was almost sure that indicated scum. But it's hard to see how he could have faked knowing Albert's flavour, unless they're both scum and co-ordinated this overnight. But I'm generally inclined to believe simple explanations over intricate conspiracies. If you're both scum, bravo, you played this one perfectly.

[The Fonz]

RafK, for one thing it would clarify whether you are saying, "We must not revive Yos today; tomorrow is a shiny new day and we can make a shiny new decision then," or, "We must never revive Yos, ever ever ever, for he is scum," or, "We must not revive Yos, ever ever ever, but not because he is necessarily scum; for some other reason."

You're right, it is worth clarifying that we must not revive Yos ever ever ever. Other details aren't worth worrying about at this stage. If I die you know you can trust me on that, and if I live and the exact reason becomes important, I'll be able to tell you why.

I actually think it would have been better had you just stuck to saying 'we shouldn't revive him today' today, then come out with 'we should never revive him' tomorrow. Seems to me you've given out more information than is necessary, though I suppose there was always the chance you got NKed tonight. But, then we could revive you.

[The Fonz]

Oh dear lord...
Can someone please help me understand why a god associated with rebirth would be a cop?
You could at least have claimed Necromancer or something...

To explain where the sun goes at night, such pushing was extended to the underworld, Khepri's pushing of the sun being ceaseless.

My guess would be that the flavour has Khepri checking up on the forces of death whilst rolling the sun through the underworld, or something.

[The Fonz]

Maybe, but we still have the revive, and as we don't know quite what RafK's role is, it may be that preventing Yos being revived might be the most useful thing he could do for the town, and hence worth hinting powerrole. We can also be reasonably confident that, if you're telling the truth, you're not sane, which is useful.

[The Fonz]

That was fast.


I'm Howard Carter, I found King tut's tomb. I send in a name and get a description of something in their home or tomb. [My win condition]

Wait, so your Win conditon is to find somthing in someones tomb? Basically a Cop?

No, it means:

First line, he's Howard Carter, he found King Tut's tomb.
Second, his role.
Third, [his win condition] which he's declining to state.

[The Fonz]

EBWOP: Whatever you may say, the role you have is a Burglar (or Thief). See the Flash file on roles.

[The Fonz]

That being said, I scorn at the theories of Carter "harming" Egypt and also that of assuming a burglar is a miller or even that he may be a miller.
The purpose of a miller is slightly defeated if the person in question knows his miller status.

I thought it was generally considered that millers ought to know they're millers?

[The Fonz]

Oh and in that case, I was a bastard mod before that precise term was ever coined

Haha. Basically, the reason I get that impression is that it's come up in several MD threads I've read, dating back a fair way (I get REALLY bored when more than one of my games is in night at the same time) and it seemed like every time most people thought they ought to know (I think it was KC who put it best: it's not like a miller claim's going to save you anyway).

I will bear this in mind for future Phoebus-modded games, though.

[The Fonz]

Because we, as a town, don't want him to disclose exactly what his role is. He's already said we should

never

resurrect him, any more info on the subject is of no use to the town, but potentially a lot of use to the scum.

[The Fonz]

It won't matter, since Yos will still be dead. Besides, his alignment will be revealed once no more revivals are possible.

[The Fonz]

By which I mean- if RafK comes up scum, we will

know

Yos' alignment, because it will mean the roles of dead players are revealed.

[The Fonz]

If he comes up as something like that, at least we get an immediate scum lynch.

[The Fonz]

If RafK comes up scum, we won't have the opportunity to revive Yos, since alignments won't be revealed until no more revivals are possible.

[The Fonz]

Received prod, still here, just lurking. I've said what I had to say.

Hmm, so you have, and The Fonz shrugged it off.

So I did.

IH: Claim. Once someone suggests they might claim, it is the only pro-town course to insist that they do.

[The Fonz]

I really can't see why you think Town power roles should always claim, IH. A town info role should reveal just enough information to achieve the end they need to by coming out, whilst keeping the scum guessing as much as possible. Fullclaims should only be employed if a) it's the only way to achieve the desired end or b) to save your own life.

If I may digress into hypotheticals here:
-------------------------
For instance, let's take a hypothetical case where a claimed cop declares an innocent on player X from last night. X says he knows the claimed cop is lying. The possibilities are:

X is actually the cop
X is a one-shot cop with a guilty on the claimed cop
X is a tracker, who followed the claimed cop to someone else, or no-one, last night
X is a watcher who knows the claimed cop did not do a night action that night
X is a gunsmith and knows the claimed cop does not have a gun
X is mason buddy of the real cop
X has an ability to know when he is targetted
X was untargettable that night
X is a Miller

The potential roles there range from the incredibly useful (cop) to the detrimental (miller). It is in the interests of the cop to have the scum think he might be a miller, and of the miller to have the scum think he is actually a cop.
-----------------------

Hence, RafK claims to have *some kind* of info that lets us know we shouldn't revive Yos. This is pretty much confirmable, since if, once roles of the dead are revealed, we find out Yos is a useful pro-town role, RafK is a dead man.

[The Fonz]

No. You still don't get it. He's not 'already dead-' for one, we have three other claimed power roles outed. If RafK doesn't fullclaim, it makes it harder for the scum to put them in kill priority order. What if RafK's ability is one-shot? Claiming that only lets the scum know they can safely ignore him. As for 'if he were a cop, he'd just have said he had a guilty?' NOT IF HE DIDN'T WANT THE SCUM TO KNOW FOR SURE HE'S A COP!

[The Fonz]

He wouldn't have spoken up at all? Even to prevent a potentially catastrophic mistake on the town's part? I fail to understand why you continue to speculate as to what his power role might be. It's not remotely helpful to the town.

[The Fonz]

The reason why Yos shouldn't be revived, duh.

Since you didn't actually say a reason why Yos shouldn't be revived, I take this as an admission that you lied.

HUGE craplogic here.

Vote stands, but if a votecount shows Nightson closer to a lynch, I will switch to make sure of one of the scum.

IE: I'll vote anyone, as long as they're a claimed power role.

Vote: TSS

[The Fonz]

I don't like how you've blindly opposed it, either.

[The Fonz]

I've explained why I'm in favour, I'n not doing THAT blindly, but you appear to be entirely ignoring my arguments. Town power roles should divulge the minimum necessary, unless their life is in danger. End of story.

[The Fonz]

I believe he's acted in exactly the way I would have were I a town power role. I also think when someone is willing to stake their own life on something day one, the optimal strategy is to go along with it. He's said he's willing to be lynched when Yos' role gets revealed if he turns out to have been a useful town role.

[The Fonz]

my vote is still on ABR.

Why? Why would you want to lynch the claimed cop day one?

[The Fonz]

A couple of impressions from my reread

:



The Fonz's posts regarding role flavor are

scummy.

How so? The less info the scum have, the better.

[The Fonz]

The cop claim ought to have been enough to keep him alive on its own. The only benefit of him flavour-claiming would have been to the scum, to help them formulate their fakeclaims. Once Nightson claimed what he did, of course, it then made more sense for ABR to fullclaim.

[The Fonz]

What he's saying is that you bought him a pass from revealing anymore flavor, which is a bad thing, which allows said player to keep all the info in his hand.

NO! IT'S NOT A BAD THING! At all. Claiming Cop should be sufficient to keep him alive. The more people who have claimed flavour, the easier it is for scum to formulate their safeclaims. So, it shouldn't be necessary, and doing so helps the scum. THIS is why I was against Albert revealing any more info than was strictly necessary.

Also: I find it deeply suspicious that Yogurt didn't

know

that Albert had claimed cop.

[The Fonz]

Ed: In this particular situation, I was particularly worried that if Albert claimed flavour, that would tip Nightson off as to plausible-sounding fakeclaims.

[The Fonz]

NO! IT'S NOT A BAD THING! At all. Claiming Cop should be sufficient to keep him alive. The more people who have claimed flavour, the easier it is for scum to formulate their safeclaims. So, it shouldn't be necessary, and doing so helps the scum. THIS is why I was against Albert revealing any more info than was strictly necessary.

Seriously I need to find a big red X

Have you never heard of FAKE CLAIMING, seriously. You don't get a free pass just becaused you claimed cop, ESPECIALLY in this game where you could possibly get away with fake investigations.

Of course I've heard of fake claiming, that's precisely WHY i didn't want Albert to claim flavour.

Ed: In this particular situation, I was particularly worried that if Albert claimed flavour, that would tip Nightson off as to plausible-sounding fakeclaims.

Which is a sucky reason, since Nightson asked first, and Albert danced around it for a good bit, knowing good well that Nightson had something against him. That was full of all kind of Jankery, and I really don't like how that went down. In the end, if we are to believe that he didn't decode the flavor, then it could have possibly went down alright, but still....

WRONG! Seriously, you have a claimed cop, and a guy who has a claimed guilty on him. Are you really telling me that in this situation, you think it is THE COP who should flavourclaim first? That's ludicrous.

[The Fonz]

I don't see the sense in trying to second-guess the mod like that. He's almost certainly telling the truth about his flavour. A better question is, would you expect Khepri to be scum?

[The Fonz]

Hmmmph. Lynch All Liars. In any case, it doesn't make sense: if you don't die, it is far more likely someone targetting you overnight is an investigation or protection role than a failed NK.

vote: Albert

[The Fonz]

I'm not unvoting you unless you

do

, since you've come as close to being a confirmed scum as is possible at this stage of a game. Work out whether you think your own lynch will be worse for the town than the chance of a 'very bad' consequence of the action which confirms you, then get back to me.

[The Fonz]

Eh? I didn't think we were deadlined? Mgm made no mention of it in his start of day post.

[The Fonz]

I take it you've decided that it's worth risking the 'bad consequence' then?

[The Fonz]

Oh, well, if that's the worst that can happen, there's no harm in trying. Your ability is useless if we can't trust you, anyway.

unvote

[The Fonz]

Hmmm. I've had an idea.

I am not an anti-town role.

I think everyone should state explicitly as such, this will then turn RafK into a normal cop.

I checked out Thoth and Phoebus, and neither said anything which would automatically be a lie if they are scum.

[The Fonz]

Vote to revive: Thoth

in the possibility that RafK was lying.

He said he had role information that something you said was a lie. You then admitted it was a lie. Why would you think he is lying?

[The Fonz]

That would be incredibly risky, no? Had you been telling the truth, it would have guaranteed his death when roles were revealed.

[The Fonz]

The only situation in which Yos comes up town and RafK is telling the truth, is if Phoebus took 'we don't want to revive scum' as meaning 'no-one wants to revive scum.'

[The Fonz]

Let me get back to you on that one. Full re-read coming up.

[The Fonz]

I'm still on Nanook, I think. A few things:

I don't want to revive Thoth, at least. His suggestion that Set killed Yos and that therefore Yos was almost certainly good makes me think there's enough chance that he was Yos' scumbuddy to make it a bad idea.

In which case of course, Thoth's defence of Nanook catches my eye. Add in Nanook's 'I think we need to get the revive out the way no matter what.'

Niempie has been pretty lurkish. Want something substantial from her.

RolandoftheWhite needs replacing.

The Silent Speaker's Bullheaded attack on RafK is also pretty scummy.

So, my suspects in order would be Nanook, YB, TSS.

YB's not knowing Albert had claimed cop is still unsettling.

[The Fonz]

vote: Albert

I should have been paying better attention to what you said at the beginning of the day. You've lied multiple times, if you are town your play has been atrocious.

If he's telling the truth about ending the day, that vote doesn't matter.

Okay here we go.

Vote PBuG/DeliciousGoldfish

I am Khepri, like I have said earlier. Every even days, I have the option of speeding up a bandwagon and push the sun to make day go into night. This will result in the lynch of the player with the most votes on him(it doesn't work if there are two players with equal votes). This ability comes with increasing risks the more I use it. I assume that the first time around, I will use my ability to see who targeted me, and the second time might result in my death. Or maybe the first time is free, who knows..

If I understand correctly, by activating this ability, we are now in twilight, ladies and gentlemen. DG has left this world with one vote on her.

And this involves the mod saying that you are pro-town how?

[The Fonz]

My night 1 check of Yosarian was pretty much by default. There was almost nothing I could ask about... except Yos said something like "We don't want to revive a scum", so I asked if that was true. That was a lie- Yosarian did want to revive a scum. My assumption is that he probably got SK'd.

I am pro-town.

I figured you might wanted to know that. I also suggest everyone else says that particular sentence, so we can turn RafK into a full-blown Cop.

Hmmm... someone hasn't been reading the thread...

As for the ambiguity, I'd say anything that's remotely ambiguous comes up not a lie.

[The Fonz]

Hmmm... someone hasn't been reading the thread...

Someone has, but someone sees no problem in repeating an earlier stated idea (also,

I typed that sentence before anyone else suggested it

*shrugs*).

Not a big deal, but that's simply untrue.

[The Fonz]

Not a big deal, but that's simply untrue.

No, it's not. There's a difference between typing and posting. I

typed

the line when I read RafK's post, and I

posted

it after I read the rest of the thread.[/quote]

WHAT RafK posts? Vandamien and I posted these

yesterday:

Hmmm. I've had an idea.

I am not an anti-town role.

I think everyone should state explicitly as such, this will then turn RafK into a normal cop.

.

I am a pro-town role.

Just in case there's some neutrals out there trying to get around lying by the wording everyone else is using.

[The Fonz]

If your power is to cause a quicklynch, it's not that useful anyway.

[The Fonz]

I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack!

And I don't think we should lynch Albert.

[The Fonz]

To my mind, it's more that I absolutely believe Albert is Khepri, and that his power is exactly as he described it. I can't see that being a scum role.

(Though the claim that 'the mod would confirm him as town' when he used the ability has been shown to be false).

[The Fonz]

Wasn't Imhotep the bad guy in the film 'the mummy' though?

[The Fonz]

TBh, I'm kind of surprised no-one even mentioned the possibility of reviving the claimed tracker.

[The Fonz]

I actually didn't see your message and didn't get to send in a night choice even though I was actually on right when the thread closed. Annoying, but oh well.

Yeah, I was kinda hoping the hammer would be co-ordinated with Nightson, VD, and RafK so that the town could co-ordinate all four actions. I'm
a bit annoyed with Blight for that.

[The Fonz]

I know, but I mean, I'd at least wait to ensure VD was around, wouldn't you? There was no pressing need to hammer Albert there. OR even better, invite VD to unvote, and then hammer himself.

[The Fonz]

I don't think we should throw around blame here, I'm guessing that over half the town hadn't read Damien's post.

That's pretty damning, if true. I mean- not knowing the claim situation in a game?

[The Fonz]

Well, we know VD was telling the truth about his power. Also, I can't see how you don't think it's beneficial to have a night where no-one died. With the mafia RB out there, we couldn't have gained that much anyway.

[The Fonz]

MOS, we don't gain information. Our profit is in restoration of the balance between scum and town. The nightkills push that balance in favor of scum, and lynching pushes it back in favor of town. Albert gave it a nudge in the wrong direction and Van Damien gave it a corrective nudge. If it helps, like RafK said, visualize it as if it's just a long day 3 with a dayvig in the middle. This shouldn't be blamed for the activity levels.

I don't know why I'm bothering to explain this to you, since you're so clearly scum.

Did you miss the fact where I agreed that we profit from having Van Damien end the night quickly? The only thing I did was question whether or not we gained

information

from ending the night quickly, something you have claimed to agree with. So, I fail to see how you are explaining anything new to me. In fact, it looks very much like you are just agreeing with me and then turning around to call me scum.

The thing I don't get here, MoS, it is you, and no-one else, who brought up the subject of us gaining information from the short night in the first place. Thoth stated that it was beneficial to the town to skip a night, and nothing more.

[The Fonz]

Great, can we move on, then?

[The Fonz]

Vote: Sacred

Nightson made a pretty strong RC, and there is evidence (his investigation on Albert) to back it up. Had you forgotten his claim, do you think it is a lie, or did you just vote with the intention of stirring things up?

[The Fonz]

We're not ignoring MoS' vote. We just only have one vote each, and Sacred is the one who's contributed less to this point, so more worth pressuring.

[The Fonz]

We're not ignoring MoS' vote.

ig·nore
1.

to refrain from noticing or recognizing

: to ignore insulting remarks.

Exactly. I did in fact, notice and recognise MoS' vote- I chose not to comment on it at this point. I

do

have only one vote, and I dislike FOSing one player whilst voting another, I find it scummy.

We just only have one vote each, and Sacred is the one who's contributed less to this point, so more worth pressuring.

Sacred replaced an inactive and had a vacation of a week and a half. Why expect her to contribute a lot? And, to be honest, Mossy has made a boatload of one- and two-liners.

We have more contributions from MoS than Sacred to go on. Whether MOS has a history of making one-line posts, or a history of making posts that look like War & Peace, he nonetheless has a history we examine.

On Sacred we have nothing, zip, nada, no information by which we can judge her. Hence, it is necessary that we force something out of her, to make her contribute (whether her previous non-contribution was her fault or not is 100% irrelevant).

[The Fonz]

Exactly. I did in fact, notice and recognise MoS' vote- I chose not to comment on it at this point.

Oh, and how should I know that? Use telepathy?

You shouldn't know that. Nor should you make accusations you can't possibly prove.

You use a specific train of thought to say Sacred is scum. However, following

the exact same train of thought

, Mossy is scum. You failed to acknowledge this until someone else pointed it out. You (and everyone else who jumped on Sacred) used double standards to vote Sacred but ignore Mossy.[/quote]

LIAR. DIRTY STINKING LIAR.

Vote: Zindaras

Nowhere did I say Sacred is scum.

[The Fonz]

No, I voted you because you outright lied, which is a scumtell.

Let me ask you this: do you not think an OMGUS vote on a virtually-confirmed town power role is worthy of comment?

[The Fonz]

Zindie's arguments are correct, imo. Voting someone is to be taken as thinking they are scum, unless you do something that generally makes it clear you have another purpose behind it.

No, voting someone indicates you think someone is worth wagonning. Obviously I think she's possibly scum- but it's more that I want answers, and the best way to get them is to use the pressure I can bring by placing my vote there.

No, I voted you because you outright lied, which is a scumtell.

Note, once again, how Mr. Fonz fails to address my argument.

I did not lie. Mossy stated it quite well:

Zindie's arguments are correct, imo. Voting someone is to be taken as thinking they are scum, unless you do something that generally makes it clear you have another purpose behind it. The Fonz's vote had nothing to indicate that he did not think her scummy for her vote.

At worst, my statement there was a slight misrepresentation of your post. You're just flat-out reaching here, and ignoring my arguments to boot.

You said I was calling her scum. At no point did I call her scum.

Let me ask you this: do you not think an OMGUS vote on a virtually-confirmed town power role is worthy of comment?

This is not what I'm arguing, again. What I'm arguing is that if you think it's worthy to comment on

Sacred

's vote, then you

must

also comment on

Mossy

's vote.

Why? Sacred's vote and MoS' vote were pretty much the same. Anything that goes for one, goes for the other. That ought to be obvious.

As an aside, I personally did not see Sacred's vote as being that serious. Nightson just said that votes speak for themselves. Then Sacred votes Nightson and says "Interpret". Which, I daresay, gives enough of a hint that it's a statement, not necessarily a push for a lynch.

So Sacred can vote and not be pushing for a lynch/calling someone scum, but when I do it, you attack me for it?

For the last time, I did not ignore MoS' vote. I thought, 'Hmmm... these votes are disturbing. Which of the two should I vote? I've already got more of a read on MoS, and the last few pages have mainly been people arguing with him. Don't have very much on Sacred, so that is the more productive wagon to pursue at this point.' Had only MoS and not Sacred voted Nightson, I'd obviously have voted MoS. It's really not hard.

[The Fonz]

Emphasis mine. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Sorry, this is the kinda post that's so dumb it makes me want to bang my head against a wall. I think she's possibly scum, but I'm not calling her scum. Ergo, I am not ruling out the possibility of Sacred being scum, but I am not yet at the stage when I would have any certainty that she is, hence it would be premature to

call

her scum.

Actually, I would say that there is a fundamental difference between our votes. Sacred made it clear that there was a reason behind her vote (ie, resulting from the conversation directly preceding it). I did not include a reason at all, rather I made it clear that my vote was a joke vote that I could afford to make, being only the second vote cast on him.

How does offering no rationale at all make it clear it was a joke? Sacred's looked more likely a joke to me than yours did, if anything. Not that I think joking with a deadline looming is that great an idea anyhow.

The Fonz, you *do* realize that we can't read your mind, right? I could say that it was obvious from my vote on Nightson that I didn't know he had claimed, but while it's a reasonable conclusion, you aren't me, and therefore you don't *know* for sure. You

say that it was obvious that you felt we were both scum,

but you didn't even bother to mention my name or make any comments that included my vote in your suspicions. It was hardly obvious, and making demeaning comments about it isn't going to help your case.

I said nothing of the sort. I very much didn't feel that 'It was obvious you were both scum.' I felt that both Nightson votes were equally disturbing, but, I cannot stress this enough:

JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE DOES

ONE

QUESTIONABLE THING DOES NOT MAKE THEM AUTOMATICALLY SCUM IN MY EYES!

It does, however, make them worthy of a vote at this stage.

I'd have thought it was obvious that if two people do exactly the same thing, anything you say in reaction to one of the two doing it, applies equally to the other. Basic principle, surely?

[The Fonz]

Whoa, I totally just stumbled across this.

Well, we know VD was telling the truth about his power. Also, I can't see how you don't think it's beneficial to have a night where no-one died. With the mafia RB out there, we couldn't have gained that much anyway.

Perhaps I missed or forgot something, but when exactly did we become knowledgeable of a mafia RB?

Rafk has been blocked every night since he claimed.

What he said. Since when do town RBs roleblock claimed cops?

Sacred's looked more likely a joke to me than yours did, if anything.

Well, I think that this is the third thing you've said about my vote and your reasoning for voting me. So now I'm a bit confused.
The reasons you stated in the post where you voted me had nothing to do with my activity and contribution. But that's what you later brought up as explanation for your vote. That you're pressuring me to say more.
And now you come and say that you viewed my vote as more joke-like than the one MoS cast. Yet I was first in line when it came to voting.
A bit of a mish-mash of reasons if you ask me.

Unvote

Look, it's really not that hard, OK? I voted

one of you and MOS

because voting for a pretty-much confirmed town power role is at best not helpful. I voted

you

rather than

him

because we'd just spent several pages on MoS-scrutiny, and had very little to go on vis-a-vis you.

Actually, some people did voice the possibility of Albert being mafia, when he argued that mafia wouldn't have such a powerful role and someone (I think it was Zindaras but I could be wrong) countered this theory.

It was me, and it wasn't the power, it was the flavour. Khepri is a pretty unambiguously good character.

Kilroy is REALLY pissing me off, but he's not the lynch.

And who's to say Nightson will be alive tomorrow? Or that he really is Papyrus but Mafia? The fact that Imhotep, a celebrated inventor who the Egyptians even turned into a god, came up scum would hint at the fact that it is not as clear as it seems.

The same Imhotep who's the main villain in 'The Mummy?' THAT Imhotep?

It still does not explain Nanook's vote to revive Yos.

It does, actually. Did you read his claim? He puts in two names on odd-numbered nights, getting the alignment of the first on that night, and the other on the following night. So he got the alignment of Yos the night AFTER the revive-movement day.

[The Fonz]

I really don't see why I needed a poke there. *Grumbles*

[The Fonz]

@Fonz: You can blame me. I asked that everyone be poked to make sure we're all aware that a deadline is looming. If you're ok with a no lynch day, feel free to leave your vote on Zindaras.

I'm not 'OK' with it. Way to create a false dichotomy. I don't see an existing wagon with a) a particularly solid case behind it or b) that could be gotten within lynch range whilst still giving the target time to claim if need be.

[The Fonz]

@Fonz: You can blame me. I asked that everyone be poked to make sure we're all aware that a deadline is looming. If you're ok with a no lynch day, feel free to leave your vote on Zindaras.

I'm not 'OK' with it. Way to create a false dichotomy. I don't see an existing wagon with a) a particularly solid case behind it or b) that could be gotten within lynch range whilst still giving the target time to claim if need be.

At deadline it's half votes for lynch, so Blight has enough at the moment.

You're correct. I could have sworn this game was no majority, no lynch. Think I must have gotten muddled with another ongoing game.

However that begs the question, why is Setael accusing me of contributing to a non-lynch by not voting for the most popular wagon?

I find MoS' last coupla arguments against Setael kinda compelling. Imho, 'OMG there is a deadline, we must lynch SOMEONE!' is often a scum tactic to force through an ill-considered and rushed town lynch. Also, that whole massprod request screamed 'trying to appear helpful.'

Unvote, largely symbolic Vote: Setael

[The Fonz]

True, but said people are often opportunistic scum. I don't find the Blight wagon particularly compelling- and I always prefer not lynching to lynching someone I think is pretty town. I only really regard allowing no-lynch to happen to be a scum trait when there are several potential wagons (and not always then. In the recently-completed Ready SAlted Mafia, there was a period in the middle when there were decent wagons on three town players, and the three scum, BM, Jalyn and I, were pushing really hard to avoid a no-lynch under the cover that, well, we oughta lynch someone).

[The Fonz]

*sigh*

This puts me at -1 if I'm not mistaken which forces me to role claim as well before anyone else throws their vote on me for no reason like Blight did.

I am Ptolemy V. Epiphanes and whoever is responsible for my death will also die. So if a Townie hammers me we will lose two Townies. I don't mind claiming because now that you know, the worst thing that can happen is scum kills me tonight, and we trade one for one because one of the scum will also die.

However, let me emphasize this: if I am lynched and it is a Townie that hammers, we lose two Townies which is unacceptable.

I see London, I see safeclaims...

[The Fonz]

I'm already voting Setael.

[The Fonz]

You know full well, Zindy, that my telling you that would give you information on how highly I value my own role, whether I'd risk it or not, and therefore your question constitutes rolefishing.

[The Fonz]

To re-iterate, here's why I think it's a fakeclaim:

Unlikely to be counterclaimed. Bomb is a pretty rare role.

Doesn't produce any results, or in any way help the town- means he can't be caught out later. The only way he can be proven a liar is in death.

Complete disconnect between flavour and role- there is no reason to think Ptolemy V Epiphanes would be a bomb, and indeed, there is decent reason to think he might be scum- the RL pharoah was regarded as something of a tyrant. If ptolemy V were in the game, I would expect it to be as a Ptolemy/Cleopatra mason group.

Finally, whilst there was some suggestion he was poisoned, no-one knows if this is true, who did it, or what became of them.

Zindy, MoS and Kilroy have shown why your insistence that I hammer is scummy. Look at it this way: if I am a vanilla townie, or a doctor, my willingness to risk my own life on whether or not Setael is lying is going to be different, right?

[The Fonz]

Only problem with that plan, MoS, is he said 'whoever is responsible for killing him' will commit suicide, meaning if he gets vigged and is telling the truth, we lose our vig.

[The Fonz]

Because it's in the interests of the town that the scum not know where the doc's protection will go.

[The Fonz]

It's worth noting that, at present, one of our claimed cops appears willing to stake his own life on you being scum.

[The Fonz]

TSS or maybe Mossy would also be good alternatives to a Niempie lynch.

TSS is a possibility. MoS is not the play for today.

[The Fonz]

Actually, now you mention it Zindy, you wouldn't make such a bad lynch yourself...

[The Fonz]

Hmmm... still think Setael is the scummiest, but far from happy about staking a claimed cop's life on it.

[The Fonz]

@Fonz: You say you're not happy about staking a claimed cop's life on it, and yet you DO. Why don't you unvote and then re-vote me if you're so sure I'm scum and don't want to risk killing a claimed cop? The only reason I can see that you didn't do that is if you are scum.

Or, I have a equally or more important role than the claimed cop. Or, I don't want anyone to know WHETHER OR NOT I have a more important role than cop, and therefore, I'm waiting until the last possible moment before deciding whether or not to unvote and re-vote to put myself between Kilroy and the claimed bomb. I see no reason to reward the rolefishing you and Zindy are doing right now.

Also, Thoth is also voting Setael. Zindy- why are you not applying the same criterion to him as to me? Why is it particularly me that has to put myself in harm's way?

I will say one thing- if I do switch and Setael is really the bomb, PLEASE lynch Zindaras. He's so scummy it's not even funny.

[The Fonz]

Oh, something I just noticed on a re-read: Niempie, why did it take you two months to express your first opinion of the game? (You didn't vote day one, and though you said you found Albert scummy, didn't actually do anything about it).

[The Fonz]

Zindy, seriously, if you still think I'm scum, given that I was one of the first to oppose the Yos revival, the ONLY ONE to oppose the (town) Albert lynch, the one to first suggest the idea of all of us stating explicitly we weren't scum in order to turn RafK into a regular cop, the feather Nightson found and the fact I've ALREADY BEEN NIGHTKILLED ONCE, frankly, you're not half the mafia player I thought you were. If you're scum, of course, it all fits.

It's quite obvious you're attacking me (and indeed, Niempie) for voting your scumbuddy Sacred. Nothing else makes sense.

[The Fonz]

The fact that you were NK'd says nothing. There have been two nightkills in most nights, one likely SK (since we've already had a Vig claim, it's either likely that Blight really is a Vig or that we don't have one. And if Blight isn't a Vig, we're going to have a really amusing situation where we keep getting two nightkills, so that's not a real problem. But I'm digressing) and one Mafia kill. So this clears you of nothing. I'd like to remind you that Yosarian was killed in a Night where there was only one kill and was still Mafia.

You're being incredibly thick. Since Blight would have claimed the kill if he offed me, I was either killed by scum or SK. If I was killed by the SK, that tells you nothing about my alignment: but if I were killed by the mafia, that makes it impossible for me to be scum. Since it's an either/or, that makes me half as likely as any given player taken at random to be scum, right?

As for your opposition to the Yosarion revival:

I think the Yos revival is an interesting one. He's definitely a good player, and the n1 death amkes me thik he's less likely to be scum. I think it might be an idea to wait one more day- if there's only one death tonight, that reduces the chance of him being a crosskill victim, which is useful info. Of course, there's always the chance Mgm made him some kind of scum role with an inbuilt N1 death to confuse us, but i don't think it's that likely.

Is this opposition, Fonzy? Because it doesn't look like it. You didn't oppose a Yos revival until RafK said we shouldn't revive Yos. Distancing is an elementary concept of Mafia.

No, clearly, that wasn't opposition. But as soon as RafK came out with his info, I backed him up, whilst others were still pushing the Yos revival, and attacking RafK.

You've voted and attacked Albert for quite a bit.

I voted him because he was pushing the Yos revival, and trying to throw doubt on RafK, and at the same time rolefishing him. Should I not have done that?

Your logic to clear him was horrible.

I actually think if someone has been demonstrated to have a role that is unambiguously a 'good guy,' like Khepri, that's a damn fine reason not to lynch them.

And, to be honest, the Albert-lynch was pretty much decided by the time you opposed it. And, seriously, opposition? All you said was "We shouldn't lynch Albert". You didn't provide an alternative, you didn't actively try to get someone else lynched. Again, this is a very weak point.

Because no-one listened to me.

Turning RafK into a real Cop? That is something anyone could've thought of (in fact, I did when I came to it).

And you tried to take credit for something I'd already suggested, in fact, another reason to suspect you. Sure, it wasn't that hard to think of- but it was beneficial to the town, and scum don't tend to suggest unprompted things that are to the town's benefit.

The feather is not relevant either. We do not know the link between flavour and alignment. There may even just not be one.

Yes, because Thoth didn't come up town or anything... Anubis appears to be a town power role, Khepri of course came up town. All the obviously-good names thus far have come up town. I know you want to reserve the ability to cast doubt on any claim, however strong, but I'm not buying it. If someone has an unambiguously good name, which is confirmed by the flavour cop, it is entirely relevant.

And, of course:

Imhotep is usually shown as a bad guy in basically any book/movie in which he appears.

Add to that your massive overreaction when I accused you and we get a nice little case.

You flat-out LIED, Zindy. That's not an overreaction. You also tried to state as fact grossly untrue things about my thought process, like I 'ignored' MoS when I simply chose to use my ONE vote on Sacred and not him.

[The Fonz]

I'm starting to grow somewhat suspicious of Nightson. He's been out of the spotlight for most of the game, mostly seen as likely town, but a Burglar is most definitely not an unthinkable scum-role (especially not with a dead Inventor). I would expect him to be dead long before now if he was town.

Why Nightson in particular and not RafK? Seems they both claimed early, and RafK has the more useful power.

[The Fonz]

The same pinky who was replaced by Pooky and now Setael, you mean?

[The Fonz]

I'm guessing if the cultists won't reveal themselves, it's safe to guess they are a) still in the cult, and b) anti-town.

[The Fonz]

I love how the heiroglyphs have just brought this game to a standstill.

QFT.

[The Fonz]

After one page? Hardly.

[The Fonz]

Howdy...

[The Fonz]

Because I'm still debating whether my earlier suspicion of TSS from the first two days, or Zindie's crap attack on me coupled with the obvious Sacred ties, is more worthy of a vote.

[The Fonz]

I'm very uncomfortable with Setael's last post. For starters, if we assumed TSS was scum, RafK not being part of the same scumgroup is not conclusive proof that TSS knew him to be telling the truth. TSS' post to me looked like hardcore rolefishing to me.

Secondly, do you really not think it's possible there were people on the Yos wagon for scummy reasons? Just because it's

plausible

that a pro-town player could support a Yos revival does not mean his scumbuddies wouldn't also be doing so, using precisely that as cover. I'm pretty certain that there was at least one scumbuddy in the revive Yos camp, and TSS strikes me as the most likely.

[The Fonz]

I did forget to address Fonz's post. I get scum vibes from Fonz every time he posts, and until kilroy is proven to be telling the truth I don't think he's Town.

It's mutual. I'm still holding open the possibility of scum-Ptolemy, since you've been so ridiculously scummy.

I'm very uncomfortable with Setael's last post. For starters, if we assumed TSS was scum, RafK not being part of the same scumgroup is not conclusive proof that TSS knew him to be telling the truth. TSS' post to me looked like hardcore rolefishing to me.

It didn't look like rolefishing to me. It looks like a Townie who is confused because all Rafk was doing was dropping very vague hints. I would have reacted the same as TSS.[/quote]

The hints didn't seem too bloody vague to me. I mean, how vague is 'Don't revive Yos,' really?

Secondly, do you really not think it's possible there were people on the Yos wagon for scummy reasons? Just because it's plausible that a pro-town player could support a Yos revival does not mean his scumbuddies wouldn't also be doing so, using precisely that as cover. I'm pretty certain that there was at least one scumbuddy in the revive Yos camp, and TSS strikes me as the most likely.

You could be right, but you also could be wrong. This whole post sounded just like MoS's case on TSS - a push to take down a Townie. I just don't buy it.

[/quote]

Way to say nothing, apart from a blanket assertion that you think TSS is town. If you don't think it's reasonable to find TSS' behaviour vis-a-vis RafK and Yos scummy, please explain

why

. Hint: he

could

be town is not an acceptable reason.

[The Fonz]

Vote: TSS

The 'let's not lynch ANYONE active' seems a desperate attempt to save his own skin. Replacement, not lynching, is the way to deal with inactives. That's enough to tip the balance for me.

[The Fonz]

So, uh, anyone like stuff?

[The Fonz]

Your predecessor claimed.
Nightson claimed flavour cop, which was pretty much confirmed.
Setael claimed bomb, with flavour confirmed by Nightson.
Kilroy claimed cop, submitting two names every other night, and receiving the investigation on the second-named the following night.

The game is currently polarised, with MoS and I suspecting The Silent Speaker, and The Silent Speaker and Setael suspecting MoS.

Cult? Your guess is as good as mine.

[The Fonz]

You replaced RafK.

The biggest scum points vis-a-vis Kilroy seem to revolve around the fact he appears to believe nearly everyone else in the game to be retarded.

[The Fonz]

*Tumbleweed drifts across the dusty Egyptian desert*

[The Fonz]

I don't have 'nothing' to say. I have nothing NEW to say, since basically nothing has happened since i laid out my case on TSS.

[The Fonz]

s.

The Fonz: Let's try the direct approach. Who is your cult buddy?

You answer me: Who's your scumbuddy?

But seriously, a couple of people have accused me of being cult, and not one has given a single reason. BS.

[The Fonz]

I think I'm going to start a meta of locking on anyone who ever accuses anyone else of overreacting.

[The Fonz]

First, The Fonz, I just said that I have a feeling, a hunch that you're cult. I have no evidence that would really show that, it's just a useless hunch. As I already said it was, so saying it's "BS" seems almost like you're getting overly defensive; seeing how there's no way for me to prove that, this is just my thought at the moment subject to change like some of the others.

Except that this is how wagons on me as town always seem to start. Someone makes an assertion they can't possibly back up. I point out that it is ridiculous. I get accused of overreacting. I state that I have every right to point out how BS this is. Etc.

[The Fonz]

Nightson, explain?

[The Fonz]

I interpreted Jester's post as him claiming to be Tutankhamun and bulletproof. Jester, please clarify - were you talking about my claim, or were you claiming?

mod: can we get a VC please?

Oh you're in this game? Lolz. I thought Jester had replaced you.

That's why I have such a thing as an opening post.
(That also means, no one should ask for a replacement of YogurtBandit, since he's already replaced -- and I've also replaced his replacement.)

Any chance of the requested vote count while we're at it?

[The Fonz]

BUT WE MUST HAVE A COP WHO INVESTIGATES IN THE NORMAL WAY, Y'KNOW, WITH INNOCENTS AND GUILTIES AND EVERYTHING! Otherwise a framer would be pointless!

[The Fonz]

Oh yes. That's a good point. I suggest everyone who stated they were town way back do so again, so that we know we can rely on Rafk if not roleblocked.

I am not, nor have I ever been, a member of any cult or scumgroup, nor am I a serial killer.

[The Fonz]

This does us no good if Rafk keeps getting blocked, but maybe we'll luck out and lynch the mafia RB today.

True. But I want rid of the outside possibility that we kill the RB, and he investigates someone, then they come up truthful but have been culted since they made the statement (which would make it not a lie, since it was true at the time)

[The Fonz]

I really don't understand the claim that he found me scummy enough to vig, then the following morning was willing to revive me, despite the fact that a claimed tracker had been NKed the same night. However, since TSS was my number one suspect day one, the kill does make a lot of sense from a scum perspective.

TSS did say this when RafK claimed:

he heart weighery is, sad to say, entirely plausible with my role.

So I have no doubt that he IS the crocodile God. That says, that's no reason to not think he's an SK either. Then again, I don't believe anyone's come up vanilla townie yet- if the vast majority of players have some kind of power role, vig is a fairly plausible one to duplicate- since it is only mildly positive for the town anyway, and as soon as one claimed, the other would vig them. Only one NK night one supports TSS' claim- but night two there were also two kills, which have been claimed by neither 'vig' so there must be an SK somewhere.

[The Fonz]

THat's defeatist, TSS. If you'd raised the 'shouldn't we revive the claimed tracker' point, people would have listened.

[The Fonz]

You're trying to have your cake and eat it, TSS. You're trying to argue that you're not an SK, and even if you were we shouldn't kill you.

[The Fonz]

So Kilroy, Nightson and Dusk all survived, and only one of them could have been roleblocked. Any results to share?

[The Fonz]

Kilroy claimed an innocent on me, DGB.

[The Fonz]

A few thoughts. One, I don't see why Nightson is on Kilroy's list. WEll, I do, but I don't think it has anything to do with him being likely scum.

Two,

mod

, are you acting on MoS' list of replacements?

Three, we are pretty much certainly going to have to lynch The Jester at some point. Bulletproof is too easy a scum claim.

Four, since my top suspects going into today were Setael/Zindy, I'm favouring a Zindy lynch right now.

[The Fonz]

One thing: Goofy, why are you clearing Kilroy?

More or less, he hasn't been counterclaimed, right?

The existence of a framer indicates the existence of a cop who receives guilty/innocent results. Since no-one else has claimed such a role, for now we ought to believe Kilroy.

And massclaim is a very bad idea.

[The Fonz]

[

C'mon, seriously, you're assuming too much. For one, counterclaiming says squat. Never did. Not in an open setup. For two, there was no job description given for the Framer role. It could be a different role entirely.

Are you serious? Mafia framer might be a completely different role to how it has appeared every time it's been used in the past? And, no, the lack of counterclaim is useful information.

Confirming should never be done lightly. And I think both of you are doing just that.

And I call bullshit. I'm not confirming him for a second. I'm arguing that the balance of the following- claimed investigation role, combined with the existence of a mafia role which suggests the existence of a role with that kind of mechanic, and no obvious connections to dead scum, make him a poor lynch choice today.

One thing: Goofy, why are you clearing Kilroy?

More or less, he hasn't been counterclaimed, right?

The existence of a framer indicates the existence of a cop who receives guilty/innocent results. Since no-one else has claimed such a role, for now we ought to believe Kilroy.

And massclaim is a very bad idea.

Why do you think that? I think there are some very good reasons to mass claim atm. Any of the completely confirmed players can set the order.

I also agree with DFG that lynching the claimed bomb makes sense. Did he also claim flavor?

DGB didn't suggest lynching the claimed bomb. In case you hadn't noticed, said claimed bomb has an innocent investigation on her. DGB was previously advocating lynching the claimed bulletproof. Who's also got an innocent on him.

If you think there are advantages in massclaim, let's hear them. Since it seems like most players have power roles of some kind, and the scum roles are likely not hugely obvious, the only consequence i see is the outing of powers, some of which might work considerably better if the scum don't know about them.

[The Fonz]

Dusk, last night.

[The Fonz]

My apologies, I got Jester mixed up with a claimed bulletproof in another game.

[The Fonz]

So are you saying that the players who are likely to be cultists are less likely to be NK'd? Does the mafia not have to get rid of the cult to win?

The mafia needs to get to the stage where it represents half of the living. It doesn't matter who else is alive at that point.

[The Fonz]

Cuts the other way too. You'd expect scum to play up the cult angle.

[The Fonz]

Setael: who would have been better investigation choices and why? I'm asking you because you know the game more intimately than I do, since I'm a relatively recent replacement.

Well, I have to admit that from my POV the choice she made is especially unhelpful since I know my alignment. So I'm biased. However, as I said earlier, I can see wanting to confirm a player whose claim protects them from NKs. You're saying a bomb can confirm herself - we went over this earlier. No one was willing to hammer me to test the claim and scum, knowing I was telling the truth, would never NK me unless they were sick of the game and wanted to suicide. I was an odd investigation choice because I don't think this argument would have been brought back up, I was not under anyone's suspicion (so it's odd Dusk says I was at the center of yesterday.

Oh no? My recollection is that you spent most of yesterday attacking me and MoS, and defending The Silent Speaker. The support for your claim was some non-conclusive flavour (since Ptolemy was actually a tyrant, and your claim doesn't mention some of the most important points of his life). I would absolutely have gone after you today if not for the investigation.

I wasn't ever voted or even accused. Jester would be the #1 obvious choice and kilroy or MoS were also much more in the center of suspicion than I was).

Again, this is disengenuous. There were two camps yesterday. Yours, which suspected no1 MoS along with Kilroy and myself. And mine, which suspected no1 TSS and no2, you. We didn't vote you because TSS was our first choice. That doesn't mean there wasn't anyone who found you suspicious.

Jester would have been a helpful investigation since he also won't be NK'd by virtue of his claim. The only way we have to test his claim is either investigation or lynching him.

This is true. Jester would have been a good investigation. Not the only one, though. I think all those you present are good investigatees- but so were you.

RE: your little list, I very strongly doubt that Zindaras is cult: he was the prime pusher of the Niempie lynch. I could very much see him as scum, though, for several reasons.

In addition, though I remain uber-sceptical of Zindy, the likelihood of both a pro-town bomb and a pro-town bulletproof has to be extremely low, since it's potentially game-breaking.

Why?

Psychologically speaking, the fact that you asked "why" rather than provide factual evidence that may suggest that you are not a cult member increases my suspicion.

I don't like this. You're asking him to prove a negative. There's not really anything anyone can say that will constitute factual evidence that a cult recruiter did not visit them secretly at night.

[The Fonz]

I would absolutely have gone after you today if not for the investigation.

Maybe you should rethink your scum hunting method then, eh? Why would you have gone after me? Because I didn't know TSS' alignment?

Because you defended a known scum, and suggested that MoS, confirmed town, and me, who i know to be town, (and has pretty strong external evidence suggesting my townieness) were scum for attacking him. At one point you even said that you felt yourself and TSS were the only townies. Can you not see that TSS coming up scum, and Mos town, makes you look really bad?

[The Fonz]

You realise how utterly wifom that is, right?

[The Fonz]

I have never heard of cult being unable to recruit power roles - where have you seen that?

In certain games, specific power roles were made uncultable to avoid overpowering the cult.

However, since it seems like virtually everyone is a power role, i can't see that being the case.

[The Fonz]

To find out who is scum, don't you need some...information?

You get information from behaviour, and it is automatically yielded by lynching. However, it's a result from a lynch, not a reason for one.

For the first time in a while, i agree with Zindy.

The information you get from lynches is primarily who pushed it, who defended it, etc, and why, and what arguments they used. If someone is lynched under the rationale of providing information, all we find is that someone was lynched for information. If 'it was for information' is an acceptable reason for wagonning, it becomes self-defeating.

[The Fonz]

I believe he's likely scum. I thought that was clear, and if not, i apologise.

I'm still trying to get my head around whether scumhunting or culthunting is the better play for today, though.

Also, when one player suggests lynching another player for a given reason, it is not a red herring to refute it. You do not have the power to frame the discussion here.

[The Fonz]

unvote, vote: Jester

[The Fonz]

Zindaras led the lynch of the CR, Goof.

[The Fonz]

Before the hammer, I'd like EVERYONE to make the 'i'm not cult, nor scum, nor SK or any of kind of antitown or neutral role' declaration.

[The Fonz]

I made it yesterday, as did you, Setael. It only needs to be made once. You may recall one of the reasons Dusk cited for not investigating Jester was that he never made a comparable statement.

[The Fonz]

Thoth hasn't been cop-cleared and hasn't made the statement. Although... I believe that he's the player that can shorten the nights, and since he's used that power already, and prevented scum night kills that night, he's likely town.

I think it's likely he began as town. I see no reason to think he hasn't been culted. Your playing up of the cult at certain points, and seeming to forget it exists at others, has raised you up my likely-to-be-cult league table.

[The Fonz]

Dear Lord, I agree with Zindy almost entirely.

[The Fonz]

I'd need to look back for the when as well. Now that I think about it, both revived players were likely cult recruits (especially the one revived by the town) since the town chose to revive them and were generally in agreement that they were protown. They were therefore nearly as unlikely to be lynched as a claimed power role.

Me by town. Bear in mind, I was killed night three (and I believe killing occurs before recruitment, though it might be necessary to clarify this) so either i was already recruited (imho unlikely with claimed PR around) or the recruiter would only have one night in which to get to me.

[The Fonz]

Dusk who claims to tell the truth with a FEATHER when Nightson found a feather with FONZ, not Dusk. Did you guys confuse who fakeclaimed what?

I haven't got a clue what's up with that one, but it doesn't add up.

My role doesn't contradict Dusk's, nor does the feather showing up with me. I don't want to say any more than that, though frankly anyone who really cared has probably worked out my role by now.

[The Fonz]

DGB, I firmly disagree.

Setael is 'confirmed' as not being part of any antitown faction by Dusk. I'm not lynching her unless and until Dusk is proven untrustworthy.

I noticed all the same problems you did with the claim (Ptolemy was a tyrant, no mention of his more-famous-than-him wife) but they point scum, not cult. If Setael is cult, she is probably telling the truth about her role, because that's the thing with cultists, they start off with pro-town roles, don't they?

So to argue that apparent weakness in Setael's claim = cult is pure craplogic, i'm afraid.

[The Fonz]

So you think that Dusk, who is very likely not scum but quite likely culted, would clear someone she knew to be scum (either way, a rival faction?) That's quite a leap of faith.

[The Fonz]

So Fonz... what do you think?

Could Setael be the Godfather??? We haven't killed a Godfather yet, and with such an overpowering town, there has to be one.

A Godfather with a Bomb claim, what a diabolical plan. I tip my hat.

Again. Cleared by dusk. Shouldn't die whilst dusk lives.

However, frankly I'd like to know why we seem to have moved away from Jester.

[The Fonz]

Godfathers tend to show up as innocent to cop results. Not show up as 'not lying' rather than 'lying' when their hearts are weighed.

[The Fonz]

I think you're clutching at straws, and building up a wildly improbable conspiracy theory based on evidence that is weak at best.

[The Fonz]

Except that Ammit was regarded as a divine creature, of sorts, whilst we also have a claimed non-God in Howard Carter. Also, since Jester appears to have been given Tut as a safeclaim, how likely is it that Mgm gave the scum safeclaims that had completely different flavour to all the town roles? Rock solid? I think not.

Also, if Dusk's role works as RafK described it, the investigation target is not a player but a sentence, so any protection that might apply to the person of Setael is unlikely to apply to her words.

[The Fonz]

DGB-

The scum had a framer to deal (presumably) with Kilroy-cop.
The flavour results on them are likely to be inconclusive- see the big pile of gold in Jester's house.
That only leaves the truth-verifier.
They also presumably had a roleblocker of some kind, unless Dusk is lying scum.

That's plenty. There is no need for the Fairy Godfather.

[The Fonz]

That's plenty. There is no need for the Fairy Godfather.

Really. You don't think there is a Godfather in this game. You sound pretty convinced of this.

I think it's near impossible that we wouldn't have a Godfather. We'll have to agree to disagree.

What's your explanation of what happened with the roleblocking?

Is inventor/goon/framer/RB really such a weak scumgroup?

[The Fonz]

DGB: Hella FOS for the 'I would expect townies to agree with me, and cultists to support the alternative.'

[The Fonz]

DGB, your Godfather speculation is utterly ludicrous. I don't believe any kind of hyperpowered GF with the ability to subvert any town power that goes near it exists.

You're wrong, you're ridiculous, and I'd sooner lynch you than Setael. I will not support a Setael lynch today under any circumstances whatsoever. I will not support a Setael lynch so long as Dusk lives.

[The Fonz]

I don't accept that what you're suggesting is even possible.

We lynch Jester today.

We basically have to lynch Dusk tomorrow, but by that point she should have another investigation, so that if she turns out to still be town then we can at that point clear two players. Which, if Jester is the last scum, is all we need to ensure that cult doesn't win.

If Dusk turns up cult, then we look at Setael. Not before.

[The Fonz]

***why do I I feel like I am the last townie in this game***

Setael tried a similar line with regard to herself and The Silent Speaker. Look how that one turned out. Lo and behold, Mastermind of Sin and myself were, in fact, correct.

I DO NOT BELIEVE SETAEL TO BE SCUM. I DON'T THINK IT'S POSSIBLE. I BELIEVE HER ROLECLAIM.

[The Fonz]

Actually, I have, and your response boils down to 'I believe it's entirely plausible that this game has some kind of Godfather role that works completely differently to any Godfather that's gone before.' I don't, and anything else is just window-dressing for that one basic disagreement.

Like I said, it's a fairy Godfather argument imho.

[The Fonz]

DGB, to refresh your memory, here's some of my actual arguments against your proposal:

DGB, I firmly disagree.

Setael is 'confirmed' as not being part of any antitown faction by Dusk. I'm not lynching her unless and until Dusk is proven untrustworthy.

I noticed all the same problems you did with the claim (Ptolemy was a tyrant, no mention of his more-famous-than-him wife) but they point scum, not cult. If Setael is cult, she is probably telling the truth about her role, because that's the thing with cultists, they start off with pro-town roles, don't they?

So to argue that apparent weakness in Setael's claim = cult is pure craplogic, i'm afraid.

Godfathers tend to show up as innocent to cop results. Not show up as 'not lying' rather than 'lying' when their hearts are weighed.

I think you're clutching at straws, and building up a wildly improbable conspiracy theory based on evidence that is weak at best.

Except that Ammit was regarded as a divine creature, of sorts, whilst we also have a claimed non-God in Howard Carter. Also, since Jester appears to have been given Tut as a safeclaim, how likely is it that Mgm gave the scum safeclaims that had completely different flavour to all the town roles? Rock solid? I think not.

Also, if Dusk's role works as RafK described it, the investigation target is not a player but a sentence, so any protection that might apply to the person of Setael is unlikely to apply to her words.

DGB-

The scum had a framer to deal (presumably) with Kilroy-cop.
The flavour results on them are likely to be inconclusive- see the big pile of gold in Jester's house.
That only leaves the truth-verifier.
They also presumably had a roleblocker of some kind, unless Dusk is lying scum.

That's plenty. There is no need for the Fairy Godfather.

[The Fonz]

DGB, to refresh your memory, here's some of my actual arguments against your proposal

None of these arguments hold water.

You can't simply claim there's no counterargument, then go 'this doesn't hold water' when presented with one. Though, if you can:

Read RafK's role description:

The way it works is I can ask the mod if a particular sentence in someone's post

is true from that person's point of view (to the best of the mod's knowledge).

Plenty of room for a Godfather to slip through. In fact - it looks to be like that sentence was written specifically by the Mod to alert RafK that the results are not infaillible. Probably Godfather-immune IMO. Plus I *believe* that it makes sense in this game to have a Godfather.

This argument does not hold water.

[The Fonz]

I am only willing to lynch Jester or DGB today, for the record.

QFT.

I'm also so frustrated by DGB's play I'm not going to post again today.

[The Fonz]

OK, a plan occurred to me, so I've decided to post again after all.

We should lynch Jester today, and if no-one dies tonight, we need not lynch again, until every claimed powerrole has investigated every single player, or another kill occurs. Then, we will have the maximum possible amount of information to hand in order to ascertain who might and might not be cult.

(Also, the lack of an RB last night indicates to me that there is only one mafioso left, and that person is a roleblocker, not a GF).

[The Fonz]

Ether is correct, now I think about it. If Setael is genuinely a bomb, and has not been culted, Jester hammering Setael means instant cult win.

[The Fonz]

What she said.

[The Fonz]

*Sigh*

Is it to be another game-killingly long wait?

[The Fonz]

Dusk was not cult.

This means that Setael is a confirmed innocent, unless cultists don't show up at all upon death.

DGB, I've reserved a table for you at Kentucky Fried Crow.

[The Fonz]

Yep.

Trying to think what it could be.

Another member of the scumgroup doesn't make a ton of sense, since you'd have thought the scum would have had said player kill and used The Jester to roleblock.

Another SK is basically impossible, given the number of kills on previous nights.

The cult gaining killing powers when it became the last remaining antitown faction? I suppose it's possible.

[The Fonz]

I'm fine with that role when there's no conceivable way that role could have been antitown in any way, yes.

It occurs to me that, had Niempie successfully recruited every night, the cult would have won by now. Must have targetted someone who died, or there's some additional really funky mechanic going on.

I suppose it's also possible we had a cult-recruited one-shot vig in addition to Sobek.

[The Fonz]

It's a really, really stupid protown killing if so. Like, potentially one bad enough to lose the game singlehandedly. We could have basically locked the game up by no-lynching a couple of timesand having Dusk investigate, then lynching her. Even having Dusk claim her results today and THEN lynching her would have given us either a certain cultist via a guilty result, a dead cultist in dusk, or another confirmed innocent.

[The Fonz]

Scumday, not birthday.

Secondly, I thought we'd established that your investigations did not clear people of being cult?

[The Fonz]

In other news, today i think we should lynch Ether, or possibly Flameaxe.

[The Fonz]

I'm starting to suspect that Thoth (now Ether) was actually revived by cult-related elements.

[The Fonz]

Another member of the scumgroup doesn't make a ton of sense, since you'd have thought the scum would have had said player kill and used The Jester to roleblock.

Wait, what?

The Jester was a scum roleblocker. Therefore, it makes little sense for the Jester to kill rather than roleblock, if there was another member of that scumgroup alive at that point who could have killed in his stead. That Dusk was, in fact, not roleblocked that night and allowed to investigate suggests that he was the only mafioso remaining.

Or she was inactive and failed to send in 4 choices (one of which, I believe, would have to be during the super-short night), or, like I've said before, Cults aren't actually able to just flat-out recruit everyone.

Good point on the super-short night. I do feel like Niempie was lurkish, rather than actually inactive, though she could have missed a night or two i suppose.

[The Fonz]

That Dusk was, in fact, not roleblocked that night and allowed to investigate suggests that he was the only mafioso remaining.

If that's true, why did we have a kill last night?

That's what I'm trying to figure out, hence wondering about potentially-culted one shot vigs, and so on.

The Jester was a scum roleblocker. Therefore, it makes little sense for the Jester to kill rather than roleblock, if there was another member of that scumgroup alive at that point who could have killed in his stead. That Dusk was, in fact, not roleblocked that night and allowed to investigate suggests that he was the only mafioso remaining.

It just wasn't what came to my mind at first, it seems like a fairly uncommon and newish rule to me.

Come to think of it, it does make sense, but it seemed like you knew something you shouldn't. And I always look out for those.

Rule?

I'm really not sure I understand what you're getting at here. What did I appear to know that I shouldn't?

[The Fonz]

Rule?

I'm really not sure I understand what you're getting at here. What did I appear to know that I shouldn't?

That a Mafiate killing would make that Mafia unable to use his personal role.

That's just generally true, in my experience. Also, could you think of another reason for a scum roleblocker not to use his power when he knows there's a town cop or several out there?

[The Fonz]

I can't remember a game that didn't, to be honest.

[The Fonz]

I find it hard to see why he's not contributing, if not. After all, he does have a claimed power role, with evidence to back it up. He was the first player to claim, and was virtually 'cleared' due to the ABR business.

[The Fonz]

To be honest, I'd probably be OK with a lurkerlynch of nightson here. That said, neither Ether nor Flameaxe have contributed at all today either (and, frustratingly, that's my top 3 suspects).

He isn't confirmed, like Setael, he didn't push the lynch of the CR like Zindie did, he's a far more likely recruit target than YogurtBandit was, and Kilroy is at least contributing.

When your number one suspect disappears, I don't think it's productive to hang around.

[The Fonz]

*Tumbleweed*

[The Fonz]

*Sighs*

Vote: Nightson

L-1

[The Fonz]

I'd be tempted to finish the day, but between a borderline useful investigative role and an Evil Bloodthirsty Pharaoh Ptolemy fake claiming Bomb, I'd vote the latter.

What if Nightson had the good sense to investigate Setael?

No I'm not voting Nightson. It's a long game, but I'm sure someone would be willing to step into end game.

Nightson

already

claimed to have investigated Setael.

[The Fonz]

Nightson just posted in Gd...

[The Fonz]

Kilroy, investigation, since it seems we might still have a mafia.

So far, the following have been investigated as 'not mafia' by one 'cop' or other, I believe:

Me
DGB
Setael

Kilroy should have an investigation on either Zindie or Ether (unless he claims to have investigated Flameaxe, which would be a pisser).

I stand by my 'Zindie is not cult' statement earlier.

So, that leaves us with, from my perspective

Potential cult:

DGB
Ether
Kilroy

Potential scum:

Zindie
Ether
Kilroy

[The Fonz]

We should massclaim.

Strongly disagree.

[The Fonz]

It seems, re: kilroy, we have one of the following positions:

1. Kilroy is scum
2. Zindie, as the only person not to have an innocent from one or other 'cop' is scum.
3. Kilroy is naive.

[The Fonz]

We should definitely not massclaim.

[The Fonz]

I'll even go first, if it makes you feel better, Fonz dude.

NO. NEVER EVER AT ALL SHOULD WE MASSCLAIM.

[The Fonz]

Yeah, scum never likes to claim. They might get caught when they make things up.

Scum does, however, always want to know about any town power roles that might throw a spanner in the works of their nefarious plans.

I will die sooner than claim.

FOS: Anyone supporting massclaim

[The Fonz]

You're assuming that the town role I am afraid of revealing is my own. The same goes for your role, and Ether's.

Massclaims, in general, are bad. A good mod should construct his game so at best they don't benefit the town, and often should hurt.

They're especially bad when all but one player has an innocent investigation on them, so either that player or the claimed cop has to be the last scum. Culted players, of course, have town roles to begin with. So there is no possible scenario in which a massclaim here can help, and it can certainly hurt by revealing information the scum will have. Hence, i want no part of a massclaim, (REGARDLESS OF WHAT MY OWN ROLE IS).

In fact, I'm considering a never massclaim meta.