Consulmaker - Carthage wins!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Apologies for my absence. I've been quite ill lately, and in the hustle and bustle of all my other games and staying alive IRL, I failed to notice this game had started.

Public Announcement:

I just wanted to let everyone know that I do

not

plan on having a repeat performance from another similar game which I cannot directly reference because it is ongoing and no one knows my alignment anyways. My intent in this game is not to defy the establishment and be generally obstinate and even downright unhelpful at times (although it is rather amusing ). Should I be elected Tribune, I promise that I will do my best to act in the best interests of the town. While it is true that I often encounter troubles when attempting to convince other players of my successful scum finding in game, this does not mean that I will just go off on my own and protect people randomly. I will listen to the input of the town, just as I would with any game where I would try to discern the scum, and I will attempt to provide solid reasoning to explain my choices each day, should I be reelected. I thank you all for your support, and I look forward to ridding this town of horrible scumbags.

-=Paid for by Townies for Mastermind of Sin '07=-

[Mastermind of Sin]

indeed.

[Mastermind of Sin]

you mean Forum?

[Mastermind of Sin]

If Panzer has vetoes of his own, he doesn't need to be Tribune. We can elect someone else Tribune and have 3 vetoes available.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Exactly. Panzer doesn't need to be Tribune to have a veto.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hmm, good point, Kison. I checked back and he did say that. Panzer, is this a reusable ability, or can it only happen once?

[Mastermind of Sin]

But can you get two vetoes every time you are Tribune? Ask the mod for clarification if you don't know. If we can eventually confirm you are protown, it makes sense for you to be Tribune EVERY day, since that'll give us an extra veto each day.

Tribunal Vote Count

Mastermind of Sin - 4(Zindaras, Primate, TheEyeOfMordor, ~N9V~)
Raffles - 4(Raffles, Cephrir, Battle Mage, Panzerjager)
Kison - 1(mole)
Cheesefan - 1(Kison)
Rand Althor - 1(Rand Althor)
mole - 1(AndrewS)
Panzerjager - 1(livingod)

[Mastermind of Sin]

But can you get two vetoes every time you are Tribune? Ask the mod for clarification if you don't know. If we can eventually confirm you are protown, it makes sense for you to be Tribune EVERY day, since that'll give us an extra veto each day.

Now let's not jump to conclusions here...Even if Panzer has this ability, it's not necessarily wise to let the same player have it repeatedly.

Hence me saying that "If we can eventually confirm you protown, it makes sense for you to be Tribune EVERY day". Until then, I see no reason to elect him every day, since we can't necessarily trust him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You're so linear, BM.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Let me put it this way, you're begging the question, so to speak.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What are your parameters?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Don't compare apples to oranges, Zindaras. In terms of relevance, the cessation of BM's awareness calls for a concrete analysis vis-a-vis our Consuls, as referred to in Jeep's "Mafia Principles" article, circa 2003.

[Mastermind of Sin]

As it were, AndrewS, vis a vis origin of WIFOM, according to Mack McKaun's article in the latest issue of Fallibility, an argumentative conscuascious of such a WIFOM argument is virtually nonexistant, and therefore entirely irrelevant.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Your use of the term WIFOM is quite wrong, so to speak.

[Mastermind of Sin]

On a contray, an unclutured one might say "You' re talking a load of crap".

Sine qua non

[Mastermind of Sin]

Don't compare apples to oranges, Zindaras. In terms of relevance, the cessation of BM's awareness calls for a concrete analysis vis-a-vis our Consuls, as referred to in Jeep's "Mafia Principles" article, circa 2003.

You're begging the question. Mith's "Better Mafia Principles" article, circa 2008, clearly suggests that we should verily cessate Battle Mage's awareness in terms of this game, i.e. compel him to expire.

Your use of logical fallacy combined with inescapably false factualizations astounds me, Zindaras. Mith, having yet to write said article, cannot yet have supplanted the established principles set forth by Jeep and amended by Pheobus in his "Mafia Principles Redux" article, circa 2005. These guidelines,

a fortiori

, provide us with the materials needed to prove that our Consuls have given us substance to work with

ab absurdo

, per se.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's pretty much what I wanted to say.

[Mastermind of Sin]

It did contribute

ad libitum

, indeed.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thanks

[Mastermind of Sin]

Except for the fact that even if I am scum, I wouldn't want to do something so blatant as make an antitown move as Tribune on Day 1, now would I? Even as scum, I would clearly do my best to veto in the interests of the town, at least on Day 1.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not being picky on you, MoS. I'm just curious why you had something like 4 votes (2 from Consuls) even before you made a single post.

And that last post is WIFOM-debatable. It's basically a twisted version of saying, "if I was a scum, I would make sure I'm not acting scummy"

Yes it is. It's circular logic in a sense, but when you think about it, what reason WOULD I have to try to act scummy if I'm scum?

I believe the reason I had 4 votes was already explained by nearly everyone who voted me, especially AndrewS and Zindaras.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What other criterium do you suggest we use when he have virtually nothing to go on?

As I have tried to push (and failed) so many times, we have a week to elect a tribune. In a normal mafia game, a week might be enough to get some way through discussion. It might give an insight into who could more likely be a scum, and who could less likely be a scum. And I can't see how consulmaker would be any different. I would have preferred to have some discussion with the person in question before voting on someone other than myself.

You are having some discussion with the person in question, are you not?

[Mastermind of Sin]

In fact, with the exception of Zindaras, I have the most posts of anyone in this game. (Raffles and I have the same number of posts atm) So you can hardly say that there is not at least some substance for you to make a preliminary judgement as to my alignment.

[Mastermind of Sin]

meh-ill believe it when i see it. So far all he is done is go off-topic and confuse me (and CES by the looks of it). I am very dubious of the amount of support he acquired before he even made a post-especially from both tribunes. Toaster Strudel voted for him without any reason whatsoever.
FOS: Toaster Strudel, Zindaras, Primate

MoS has a better track record than any other non-Consul in this game (and maybe even better than any Consul, too). MoS has experience and skill, and those two variables are most important.

Also, regarding the confusion thing, I think it was actually good for the town and that it was a bit of a shame that Cessy broke it so harshly.

*speechless*

<3 Zindybuns ^_^

BM, if you want to know how I play, just read through my games. There are 85 finished ones on this site documenting my abilities at various levels of activity.

I, too, was looking forward to continuing that blessed argument.

[Mastermind of Sin]

i originally voted for Twito because i thought he was a genuine sorta guy who would play the game honestly if he was town. He didnt turn up, and Raffles did, so i changed my vote to him. Evidently Raffles is active, and from his posts i would say he is perceptive. given a choice between someone who looks like clever scum (MoS) and someone who i feel will play the game properly, i chose Raffles. I still think he is the best candidate we have at the moment.
i will ask the same question about the MoS wagon. Why vote for him? i dont want the same old answer- "hes really good". How do you know he isnt scum?, and most of all, why has no-one picked up on the fact that BOTH consuls have voted for him?
BM

Raffles - the question wasn't

whether or not you could make substantial posts,

it was

whether you actually

had

. In other words - there is absolutely no reason for you to have such following - yet you do. Why? Is this inexperienced scum attempting to support one of their own, not realizing that they were giving themselves away? Newbies blindly following the person that they see the most? Quite frankly, I'd like to hear explanations from everyone who voted for Raffles as to why. It makes no logical sense.

BM, isn't the fact that both Consuls voted me generally a point in my favor? The consulmaker picked fairly experienced and reliable players, and the chances of both being scum are slim to none. The fact that both of them would trust me with Tribune is just a monument to my perceived experience by other good players.

Also, if you bothered to read my other games, you'd notice that I look scummy in most every game, regardless of alignment. I think it has something to do with the fact that I don't really care about looking protown. My priorities are not to protect myself, but to protect the town and search out all the scum. If the town lynches me because of my methods (which are tried and true), so be it. At least after I'm dead they'll know I was protown and can lynch the scumbags I found.

If you want an example of my playing ability, check out Himalayan Mafia. With a mountainous setup (no power roles, just scum and townies), I helped lead lynches on scum Day 1 and Day 2, then opposed the Day 3 lynch where the town mislynched. I was killed Night 3, the same night that I figured out both of the remaining scum. This is verifiable by asking several of the people I told my suspicions to when I died, including LML, the scum that everyone else considered cleared except me and Lloyd. Ironicly enough, I think that was one of the games where no one thought me particularly scummy. Of course, part of the reason I don't mind looking scummy is that no scum bothers to kill me since they figure they can get me lynched. Games like Himalayan where I manage to look protown, the scum get all scared and kill me off (I was told that the scum actually tried to kill me Night 2, but missed the deadline and had a random kill instead).

Does that answer your question, BM, or are you still unsure of your parameters?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh yeah, forgot to

Vote For Tribune: AndrewS

Raffles, Tribunes can't kill people. They are on the same footing as all other non-consuls when it comes to arguing for a person's death. Making AndrewS Tribune isn't going to make you more likely to die, except that if he does want you dead he won't veto your death if it happens. Personally, I don't think that's a big enough issue to prevent you from voting him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

but lets just say the consulmaker picked one or BOTH scum as consuls. What does that make you? well, either scum, or someone easy to manipulate. From your claims you obviously do not consider yourself to be the latter, so odds are that you are scum if either of them are.
The idea of a tribune is someone to keep the balance between the consuls and the ordinary people. Personally i would rather put my faith in someone who was a little less 'under the thumb' as they say.
i do not have the time to go through all 85 of your games, and i do not see the relevance. I agree that you are almost certainly an EXPERIENCED player, but whether or not you are a good one remains to be seen. Everyone can have lucky guesses at who is scum. if 1 success out of 85 games is all you can offer, i have to express some doubt at your skill. However i think the best thing to do would be to wait and see for myself

Im also very concerned at the way in which Zindaras and AndrewS (the latter a little more subtly) seem to be sucking up to Raffles. this is probably not a scum tell-more of a greed-tell, but i still think it should be noted.

BM

ROFL. Just, roflmao.

Ok, I'm calmer now. That was a pretty funny post.

Again, even if both Consuls are scum, do you think they are dumb enough to associate themselves with a scumpartner on Day 1? We've already established that our Consuls are experienced players. It does not make sense for them to associate themselves with me if I am their scumpartners, because that blows our cover on Day 1. Don't even try to call WIFOM, either, because it's not really. Chances are, even after this argument, if both Consuls come up scum down the line, I'm likely to get killed because of it. It's not a logical play for scum. There is no good reason to take such a risk on Day 1.

I fail to see how you think I am "under the thumb". If you think at all that I'm going to show favoritism towards the people that elected me, you can think again. One of the main points in my "campaign" post was that I would do my best to represent the town as a whole and act in its best interests. This point would be counteracted if I acted on the wishes of the Consuls. I do things my own way, and everyone who is voting me for Tribune knows this. I believe that's part of the reason I'm being elected. I operate on my own and often find scum through my methods. The people voting me realize this, and they don't expect any favoritism by voting me, because they're not going to get any.

Now we get to the funny part.

a) I did not ask you to read all 85 finished games. You claimed that you could not judge my skill since you hadn't played with me, so I offered you a selection to choose from. It is entirely your option how many you read. The fact that you refuse to read any merely proves to me that you don't REALLY care about determining my level of skill at the game, despite the amount of ruckus you caused over it.

b) Don't even start with me about examples. You don't want me to list out every success I've had. The post would be too long, and you'd complain that you don't have time to go through them all, just like you did when I gave you 85 games to choose from. I merely chose Himalayan because it was a solid example that definitely did not involve any blind luck, since I had good reasons for the scum I narrowed down, especially LML and Mr. Flay, the two that were alive still when I died.

c) I suggest that you cut the attitude, BM. I don't particularly

like

to talk about my achievements, because I find it to be very self-conceited. The fact that you are pressing the issue as if you are some supreme judge of skill (like you have so much experience at mafia, with your, what, 9 games so far?) is a really bad attitude to come into a game with. I don't believe I'd be alone in saying that I don't appreciate the way you are coming into the Mafiascum community with these snide comments about people, especially when you're ultimately wrong in those statements. It just makes you look ridiculous, and it's not appreciated.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I am voting for MoS because I can reasonably trust him not to blunder as a Tribune and his play has been proper so far.
I also support AndrewS for Tribune, he also has experiance and I feel similar about his play and MoS's play.
However AndrewS did not nominate himself, he chose to nominate mole instead. That will be an interesting point later in the game.

Did you mean to say MoS instead of mole?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yeah, I agree with AndrewS' point 2. I hate self-voting and try to avoid it unless I feel it's truly necessary.

[Mastermind of Sin]

please reference me to these snide comments that have you so worked up. i dont see any reason why you should be upset, as i dont believe i have insulted you.

ROFL. For someone who doesnt think of themselves as conceited, you do like to talk about yourself alot dont you?

I didn't have to search very hard. I can come up with more examples, if need be.

Ive merely expressed a doubt that you are trustworthy. If you find this offensive, im very surprised you lasted 85 games of Mafia.

I'm not offended, but I don't believe I'm alone in saying it's not appreciated. Your comments are not only counterproductive, but they're just outright useless.

[Mastermind of Sin]

lol at the little dialogue. Really productive. Im sure a career in script writing awaits.

Yea, it was pretty productive. Let me put it this way, BM. Without begging the question, here's what you did, and what Zindybuns did a pretty effective representation of.

You came into this game and asked me about me. You asked why people were voting me and why they thought I was a skilled player. I answered you, and you further goaded me into providing specific examples, since you were too lazy to do your own research. Then, you turned around and said "Well, you sure like to talk about yourself, don't you, you conceited little person?". This was done AFTER specifically requesting reasons why I was considered a skilled player. Zindaras' "little dialogue" showed this quite well, I must say. I'm surprised someone with such self-proclaimed prowess failed to understand what he was getting at. It must be your linear tendencies.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Indeed.

[Mastermind of Sin]

*not a member*

[Mastermind of Sin]

how is confusing the town good?
As i say, ill personally assess his skill based on how he plays. So far he looks pretty scummy, but its not vote time yet. I havent been in a game with him (as far as i remember) so i will reserve judgement until this one has continued.

Just thought I'd point out that if you think looking scummy is a good basis for how skillful a player is, you've gotta rethink your strategy. While some skill is based off looking protown (and ironically, I seem to look more protown the scummier I actually am, in most cases), this is more important for scum to master than townies. The most important thing to measure skill is the ability to find scum, so I find it hard to believe that you can logically believe you can relate me looking scummy to how good I am at the game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Problem is, even if he's town, he's not likely to be useful. If the consuls do find a decent reason to want to execute him, I'd be surprised if anyone wasted their only veto on him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

please reference me to these snide comments that have you so worked up. i dont see any reason why you should be upset, as i dont believe i have insulted you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I am amused the BM is berating someone else for insulting people. How ironic.

Tribunal Vote Count

Mastermind of Sin - 6(Zindaras, Primate, TheEyeOfMordor, ~N9V~, Toaster Strudel, Kison)
AndrewS - 3(Mastermind of Sin, Panzerjager, Raffles)
Raffles - 2(Cephrir, Battle Mage)
Kison - 1(mole)
Rand Althor - 1(Rand Althor)
mole - 1(AndrewS)
Panzerjager - 1(livingod)

[Mastermind of Sin]

indeed, who hasn't posted lately? Do we need any prods?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ubertimmy has yet to post in this thread. I suggest that the mod start looking for a replacement, since he clearly has no intention of participating, over a week into the game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Instead of just not posting at all...

[Mastermind of Sin]

yes.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sounds like a solid plan to start with.

[Mastermind of Sin]

BM, it takes a lot to be the "easiest Day 1 lynch on the entire site". I don't think you're there yet, you have the likes of Max and Masterchief to live up to, not even counting those who came before them.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Lucky you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

yay for replacements.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yea, I agree with HH. livingod needs to contribute or hang.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I am withholding my opinion for now until I gather further information.

[Mastermind of Sin]

lol

[Mastermind of Sin]

O Rly?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Shame, it should've been allowed.

[Mastermind of Sin]

TEOM is right.

[Mastermind of Sin]

no i didnt. is your comprehension ok, or are you deliberately being faciscious?
You obviously have no intention of helping the town, courtesy of your last sentence. your desperation to argue with me is also rather scummy.

Did you just say your own argument was WIFOM? I totally agree, but that sort of defeats the purpose of arguing. The sad thing is, I'm going to keep my vote on you just because I don't want to listen to you anymore.

Hypocrit.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yup, I'm cool with that execution, he hasn't done anything protown yet, that I can see.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh god, BM as consulmaker...we'd be so screwed...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote for Tribune: Twito

I figure it's the only way to get him to actually contribute something. I would support Zindie as the other Tribune.

[Mastermind of Sin]

indeed he does. I doubt anyone who will be replacing him would've made the moves he did Day 1, so now we're going to have to deal with a totally different person who has no clue why he claimed Day 1. Great. Thanks a lot.

[Mastermind of Sin]

After midterms I'll make an LOE of sorts.

[Mastermind of Sin]

actually it was because i knew i was protown, but was confused at coming up scum. The go town bit was genuine, but i was unsure of the reasoning behind my role coming up different.
As for voting Twito tribune, its hardly surprising for me, seeing as he is one of the few people i expect to make a good decision in a game like this. Surprisingly im quite hopeful today. With MoS as Consul, i figure that i cant lose. If he chooses to lynch me, it will be funny because he is wrong. If he doesnt choose to lynch me, i get to live another day.
i still feel that Primate/Zindy are pretty scummy. At least 1 of them is scum imo, though obviously those views dont do alot of good today.
BM

What in my posts makes you think I would want to execute you?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I would like the following players to give me their extensive opinions on certain players:

Player Name - Players I want them to analyze:

Zindaras - livingod, Primate
TheEyeOfMordor - Twito, Zindaras
TheJiveMachine - Zindaras, Battle Mage
ubertimmy - HackerHuck, Cephrir
Primate - Kison, Rand Althor
Rand Althor - Shanba, Mastermind of Sin
Twito - ubertimmy, Shanba
Kison - Battle Mage, Raffles
HackerHuck - Rand Althor, Raffles
Battle Mage - Kison, TheEyeOfMordor
Shanba - Primate, The EyeOfMordor
Raffles - HackerHuck, Kison
Cephrir - ubertimmy, Primate
livingod - Rand Althor, Cephrir

[Mastermind of Sin]

A little of each, HH.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thanks to those who have been on the ball so far.

[Mastermind of Sin]

now we're getting somewhere Don't forget TEOM, Battle Mage. ^_^

[Mastermind of Sin]

No, Zindie is right. You only really responded to his first point. I think you should respond to the last part of his post.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Zindie is clearly cross-gender awesomeness

[Mastermind of Sin]

I would like to request a longer deadline extension than that. I will be gone for the next 3 days.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm just giving you 5 days to make up for the downtime. I see no reason to extend it further.

I'll give you a reason. At least one of your consuls wasn't even

around

during the so-called "generous" extension.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Initial LoE: Battle Mage, Kison, Raffles, Zindaras

This is

VERY

subject to change, but unless our mod sees common sense, we're in a bit of a rush, so that's what I've got so far. I had them marked down in my notes as possible executions, but I didn't actually have my reasoning written down, and having lost a lot from the crash isn't going to help. I'll try to see what I can do tomorrow, but we'll see. Perhaps my illustrious Co-Consul would like to post his own LoE and/or comment on mine?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Someone's a little overanxious about a preliminary LoE that was explained upfront to be subject to change and was rushed, hence the lack of reasoning list. Wonder what that means...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Because I didn't even consider Zindie's list when I made it...duh. I made my list based on observed interactions between players, which is the same reason I asked people to do their little assignments.

[Mastermind of Sin]

im concerned because if such a list is of such little value, why did you bother posting it in the first place?
And i believe we have a deadline at some point which means a decision needs to be made soon...

Someone's a little overanxious about a preliminary LoE that was explained upfront to be subject to change and was rushed, hence the lack of reasoning list. Wonder what that means...

Would you prefer that I just execute someone out of the blue without giving any advance warning?

That's what I thought.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Initial LoE: Battle Mage, Kison, Raffles, Zindaras

This is

VERY

subject to change, but unless our mod sees common sense, we're in a bit of a rush, so that's what I've got so far. I had them marked down in my notes as possible executions, but I didn't actually have my reasoning written down, and having lost a lot from the crash isn't going to help.

I'll try to see what I can do tomorrow, but we'll see.

Perhaps my illustrious Co-Consul would like to post his own LoE and/or comment on mine?

You don't have very good reading comprehension, do you? I've already told you that I'm going to go through and give my reasoning before I execute anyone, yet you accuse me of doing something I outright stated I wouldn't.

[Mastermind of Sin]

and my point is that you should have reasoned arguments, BEFORE you make a LoE. Otherwise it is basically useless, as has already been said.
@HH-did u get a chance to read TEOM? if not, please can you do so now?

Initial LoE: Battle Mage, Kison, Raffles, Zindaras

This is

VERY

subject to change, but unless our mod sees common sense, we're in a bit of a rush, so that's what I've got so far. I had them marked down in my notes as possible executions, but I didn't actually have my reasoning written down, and having lost a lot from the crash isn't going to help.

I'll try to see what I can do tomorrow, but we'll see.

Perhaps my illustrious Co-Consul would like to post his own LoE and/or comment on mine?

You don't have very good reading comprehension, do you? I've already told you that I'm going to go through and give my reasoning before I execute anyone, yet you accuse me of doing something I outright stated I wouldn't.

You are really getting on my nerves. Is there some sort of epidemic where you live that prevents you from being logical?

[Mastermind of Sin]

After rereading Kison's posts, I don't find his posts as lacking in content as I originally thought.

What a fluke!

but I would have preferred to see him take a stand against someone, rather than fob it off to the consuls.

Oh yeah, because, you know, asking for the opinion of the Consuls as a means to start the day is quite the scumminess. Or perhaps you didn't like the fact that I didn't allow you verbally abuse the proposed tactic and instead showed you my point of view. Sorry, but if that's the best you can come up with, then I'll be happy to be executed, because hell, mate, who wants to live in Soviet Rome?

I'd prefer Soviet Rome to Monarchy Rome. There's a hell of a lot more wrong with a system where everyone expects to lay down and take whatever the guys on top give them than a system that's based on everyone playing their part and contributing to the greater good.

Execute: Kison

[Mastermind of Sin]

I wasn't going to kill Livingod. I want him replaced, not killed. I'm not some scumbag that goes after easy targets who aren't even playing in the game right now. Nice try.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You're not dead yet, you know. You can always claim. You never know, we might save your life. ^_^

[Mastermind of Sin]

Zindaras - Zindie was on the LoE because I didn't like his campy attitude towards Primate. I also didn't like how he completely failed to comment on livingod during the entirety of Day 2 until I asked him to. It was almost as if he was avoiding having to take a stance on that issue

Battle Mage - He's probably the lowest of the 4 I listed(perhaps tied with Raffles), but he's on there because his free pass I gave him yesterday is starting to wear thin. There's only so much bad playstyle I can stand before it just means that you're scum in my eyes. There's a limit, and BM is tiptoeing the line.

Raffles/Kison - I've been feeling a strange Raffles/Kison pairing on Day 2, and I don't like it. Dispite both players being in the forfront, fairly active, and under suspicion, they completely avoided each other Day 2, not making a single post that voiced an upon about the other. Then, when given my assignment, I see that Kison not only feels that Raffles is town, but feels this

quite

strongly. This sets off alarm bells in my head.

Kison - I

really

don't like how he is trying to shunt all responsibility onto the Consuls. That's a horrible plan of action. The town does not need to be "led" by the Consuls. In fact, it's in our favor to lead the Consuls, because if we let the Consuls dominate the game, a scum consul can quite easily execute someone and then blame the town for not taking the initiative and discussing who they think is scum. That's a horrible path to take, and Kison seems to be advocating it rather strongly. The consuls are not needed to start things off, and if the town gets their opinions out there before the consuls take control of things, we'll be in a good position. I also don't like that he's advocating a livingod lynch as the premier lynch over anyone else in the game, considering that a truly protown player would prefer to have the mega-lurker replaced rather than executed. The only scummy thing livingod has done is not doing anything, which isn't really a strong indication of alignment. He's clearly gone and not going to participate, so we replace him. We shouldn't take potshots at random roles just because their players crapped out on us.

[Mastermind of Sin]

says the consul who just went for the easiest lynch of all?
im not the sort of person who would naturally defend Kison, but you are lynching him without bringing any points against him. dont get me wrong,

I

think he is a bit scummy, but you have thrown away your authority without a seconds though, basically to try and be friendly with HH. Today has opened my eyes about you MoS. I genuinely think you could be scum now.

BM

I thought you were always the easy lynch, BM .

You really haven't thought things through, have you? Has it ever occurred to you that my entire thought process is not openly posted in this thread? If it was, I wouldn't be a very effective player. In addition, how am I trying to "be friendly with HH"? I posted my LoE before him, AND I've given plenty of reason for my execution. HH has nothing to do with it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Seriously, man, that's a pretty tangential reason to put me on your LoE. You do not feel the N9V execution makes me look more towny? Because even if you felt that reasoning was enough of a reason to put me on the LoE, you ignore other aspects of my play.

Let alone the fact that I did comment on livingod Day 1. See post 406. And I don't see any reason to update my opinions on everyone every time I turn around.

Actually, Zindie, your execution

doesn't

make you look better in my eyes. I'm not sure what to think about it yet, but it seems awfully lucky that you hit scum D1. Either way, I didn't execute you, so I clearly decided that the reasoning against you wasn't worth a lynch atm.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I wasn't going to kill Livingod. I want him replaced, not killed. I'm not some scumbag that goes after easy targets who aren't even playing in the game right now. Nice try.

And yet, you have failed to specify how going after someone who has NOT contributed is a worse option than going after someone who has. What is so scummy about me? Nothing, if what you've so far specified are your only reasons for going after me. Yet, tomorrow, you will need to wait until Livingod is replaced before you make up for the potential loss of my death, and you are thus short one man until that point.

Actually, I already DID specify how it's a worse option. Just going after lurkers is something that scum want to do, because they're an easy lynch. I would much rather see a lurker replaced than killed, because they're more useful. The only way I would go after a lurker is if no one else seemed like scum, and at this point in the game, that's not going to happen. Lurking alone is a terrible justification for killing someone, and I'm not concerned about the activity in this game, so losing an active scum isn't going to bother me at all, Kison.

Kison - I really don't like how he is trying to shunt all responsibility onto the Consuls. That's a horrible plan of action.

This is the single most pathetic argument I have heard this entire game. I never tried to "shunt" anything.

I asked for an opinion

. Want me to say it again?

I asked for an opinion.

Perhaps that wasn't good enough?

I asked for a bloody opinion.

Let's go back and look JUST to make sure.

I'd like to hear what our two Tribunes and Consuls have to say, since they're ultimately the decision makers.

I asked for the the opinions of those in power, so that we can have somewhere to

begin

.

Maybe it's just me, or maybe you cannot comprehend the deep, magically encrypted meaning of the word "begin", but the last time I checked, that doesn't mean the end of the line and therefore "shunting" all work at one group of people. Or perhaps you hold yourself at high enough of a point where you feel the lack of obligation to contribute, and thus, the suggestion of such a request justifies and sort of means of execution. Whether or not you disagree with my suggestion on how to begin the day, it does not change the fact that it was a simple request that you have turned into some imaginary crime. Personally, though, I think it's more the fact that you dislike my outspokenness, but that simple aspect of my character will never change, and you'll have to get over that.

Actually, I find your outspokenness refreshing, most of the time. I rather like your playstyle, in general. As for your semantics, my point still stands. You were relying on the Consuls to start off the day, and that's not a good strategy. You don't need to Consuls to get started, and I've already explained why it's beneficial for the town to get started without the Consuls.

Also, Kison, the longer you wait with claiming, the less likely that I will veto your execution.

I don't have full-time access to this site, unfortunately. Since we're on a deadline anyways, I may as well do this now.

I am a

Roman Citizen "Townie"

. I have no name. My role is to help protect the Roman Republic by helping to cast out and identify the enemies, while potentially serving term as a Consul or Tribune. That's about the bulk of it, ladies and gentlemen.

My guess is that this claim will do me no good. Vanilla claims normally never do. I'm not about to make up a role and a Roman name just to save my own ass, though. Doesn't change the fact that the points raised against me are idiotic at best.

riiiiiight....

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS-please try not to be so condescending to me. Its not particularly nice, and rather ironic at this point

Sorry, but there's only so much illogical reasoning I can stand, and it's happening in about 8 different games right now, so I'm a little ticked off about it.

i dont think so much you have the authority to give someone a 'free pass'.
You are a consul for a day, not the entire game.

I didn't require everyone else to give you a free pass. However, it is my decision and my decision

alone

whether I, as a player, decide to give you a chance to redeem yourself after the horrible start you had. By all rights, I could've advocated your lynch on Day 1 and probably not gotten into trouble for it, at all. That's how scummy you were being. However, I felt that this was a trend you were setting in many of your games, so I decided to give you a chance to at least be logical with your posts. That didn't happen, so your free pass is over.

Its even more concerning that Protown MoS would openly execute someone for 'bad playstyle'.

It's more than just bad playstyle. You are openly making statements that are at best obviously illogical and pointless, and at worst, misleading and manipulative for those protown players that aren't as keenly able to sort out the bullshit.

Frankly MoS, im wearing a tad thin of you (no offence). As a consul i expected you to be far more proactive, with good reasons for everyone. I genuinely hoped, and expected, you to be hot on the trail of scum immediately. Instead, you seem to be looking for easy solutions to the days choice of victim. im not sure whether it is scumminess or just laziness on your part, but you havent been putting as much effort into this game as i would expect a consul to do. Dont get me wrong, you have provided more opinion than HH, but he hasnt posted an LoE with such little justification. even now i think your reasons are very weak on some people. the only person who i feel perhaps deserves a lynch is Kison, but the other 3 just seem like random choices on your part. The fact that, of your 4, HH made it quite clear that he would only kill 1 of them, and then you went along and EXECUTED THAT EXACT PERSON makes me feel like you are going along with him, in an attempt not to cause any conflict.
oh and btw-HH: You get a choice on who you execute aswell. if you are ok with a Kison execution, u have to say so in the same way MoS did.

Actually, BM, I spent a lot of time before the crash going through everyone's posts and analyzing them and making connections between them. How do you think I came up with the choices for my little assignment? Those choices were the result of my analysis. Wherever I found holes that I needed more information on, I used the assignment to fill them. As I was making my list, I jotted down some players that were clearly choices for possible Execution, or people that I would not kill today. You and Kison were the first two to go on the possible execution list. When we came back from the crash, the mod gave us a mere 5 days extension. During those 5 days, I was gone for three of them at a convention, and I had no reliable access to the site. This gave me two days to come up with an execution. Given that all of the new information I would've had was lost by the crash, I went back to my analysis and looked at the people I had jotted down as possible executions. I did a brief sweep through the thread when I had time, and between those two things, came up with my LoE. I didn't

have

time to give you reasoning for it, because the mod's deadline rushed things. I'm very interested that you think all of the people on my LoE were "easy" choices for execution today. If I was looking to have "easy" choices, why did I list Zindaras on my LoE? I can't actually execute him, because he's a tribune (something I didn't want to happen, unfortunately), so all that can happen by me putting him on the list is bring me under fire from anyone that thinks he's protown. If I'm scum, why would I want to do that? That's hardly a logical course of action if you're trying to stay alive and take the easy way out. As for HH, you can believe me or not, I don't really care. I didn't give a shit whether or not he was going to veto my execution. I'm not trying to "cooperate" with him or the tribunes, because I don't know if they are protown. I'm doing my own thing, and Kison was the top of my list when I posted my LoE. His further comments after the LoE was posted only served to strengthen my suspicion of him, hence his execution. It had nothing to do with HH.

Back to MoS:
I also find that your willingness to keep your opinions secret, is suspicious. what exactly are you hiding? assuming you dont have any investigation info etc, what harm could revealing your opinions actually do?
as Consul, i feel it is your duty to do so.
the fact is MoS, as a protown player, you will find that i speak my mind-whatever the situation.If you dont like it, NK me.

Let me refer you back to what I said earlier.

Has it ever occurred to you that my entire thought process is not openly posted in this thread? If it was, I wouldn't be a very effective player.

Let's see now. Who here is generally a more effective player? Myself, or Battle Mage, the person who gets himself lynched and can't seem to actually work things out logically most of the time. If you want to know what harm revealing your opinions can do, you only need to look to yourself, BM. I would rather think before I post, because it not only makes me look better in the long run, but it keeps me from saying things I will later regret. You should try it sometime. You might actually live to endgame.

I find your actions today rather scummy. Its ok-rarely do people ever listen to me. Im just making a point that not everyone is oblivious to your mistakes.

I don't particularly care if you think I'm scum. People don't listen to you because you rarely present a logical case. No one is oblivious to my "mistakes", because I haven't made any mistakes to be oblivious to. That would require me to not only be scum, but bad scum at that, neither of which is true. The fact that you have somehow conjured in your head these miraculous "mistakes" that I've made is just further proof why no one ever listens to you.

Im not saying i would exactly oppose a Kison execution, as i find him relatively scummy, but i would certainly oppose a quick lynch, before you have responded to everyones questions, not least of which is:
Why the hell isnt TEOM on your LoE? there is a MUCH stronger case against him than the one on me. did you even read him?

BM

I read him before the crash, and I found him neutral, leaning towards slightly scummy. I've hardly had time to do much reading since then, but you know that. We've gone over this already, haven't we?

[Mastermind of Sin]

You were relying on the Consuls to start off the day, and that's not a good strategy.

You twist my words when you say that I

relied

on you to start the day, when in fact, it was simply a suggestion.

You're just trying to play semantics here, and it's not going to work. Let's take a look at what you've said, shall we?

I'd like to hear what our two Tribunes and Consuls have to say, since they're ultimately the decision makers.

I, personally, am at a loss right now. On one hand, I could go with a Livingod or Rand al'Thor vote because they seem to be posting just for the sake of posting. However, I've noticed the same trend in other games(less so for Livingod), so it's not necessarily indicative of their alignment.

You want to hear from the Consuls/Tribunes.

I don't see how my lack of theories is any worse than the fact that we lynched a lurker because it was day one and there were no

plausible

theories to go on. I'm not going to lie, even at this point I am at a loss of where to turn next. That is why I asked for the the opinions of those in power, so that we can have somewhere to begin. However, only Zindaras has responded, and he just listed three names with no reasons provided.

Additionally, the fact that the targets for the day are people who are lurking kind of emphasizes the fact that we as a town are a bit direction-less at the moment.

You want the Consuls/Tribunes to offer up their opinions first because you don't have any to give. In addition, note the fact that you feel that going for a lurker lynch is not that great of an option, yet throughout the day you still advocate his lynch over others.

I asked the Tribunes and Consuls what they think about today, and I never got a solid answer. It's a double standard to accuse me of lurking when they're the ones we

depend on

to get anywhere today.

You say we

depend on

the Consuls to get things going, then say I twisted your words when I say you were relying on the Consuls to start the day? Right...

I never said you should be

leading

the town. To attempt to downplay your role as Consul is what is absurd. You are hardly "just" a hammer vote. It is

your

opinion which matters most, because you are the final deciders. If you disagree with our judgements, you, and the Tribunes, have the ability to prevent any such executions from happening. At the same time, you, as Consul, have the ability to initiate such executions. You are hardly "just" anything. Cooperation between Tribunes, Consuls, and the town is the most important thing, and that is why I asked for your opinions, because it would be best to start with the suspicions of those in power, as they are the final deciders.

Saying that we depend on the Consuls and that they should start the day because the town is "a bit direction-less at the moment" is pretty much the same as saying you want them to lead the town, Kison.

Ummm... that's exactly what I'm talking about. It's not just down to the consuls: it's up to us as a town to draw attention to things we think are scummy. In the end, the decision is the conuls but we can't just sit here waiting for them, as that's counterproductive. Do some digging yourself, instead of sitting there waiting for the consuls, as that's a sure way to stall the game.

How is asking a

question

as a means to

start

the day saying that

everything

is up to them?

May I refer back to your previous posts where you said, and I quote, "they're the ones we

depend on

to get anywhere today." Need I say more?

[Mastermind of Sin]

So, if by some odd chance I wound up being Consul tomorrow, and you a simple Roman whatever you are, and Little Johnny suggested the same thing I did today, being that the Consuls state their suspicions and we build off of that, and I happen to agree with him over your protests of how it's a bad strategy, my proposal for your execution over that simple disagreement would be justified as that is what your execution proposal

today

comes down to : A disagreement that you will win because you have the power today.

No, because that's not the only reason I have for your execution. I also feel that you were advocating a lurker lynch far too hard, even after admitting that it wasn't a great option. I'm also very suspicious of your interaction with Raffles, hence my assignment. My reason for executing you does not at all boil down to just your reliance on the consuls to get anything done today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sorry, I got you confused with Primate. He was the one I was more suspicious of at the beginning of the day. My bad, I'm running low on sleep.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sorry, I got you confused with Primate. He was the one I was more suspicious of at the beginning of the day. My bad, I'm running low on sleep.

And then? You wanted Primate on the LoE?

No, I just got confused as to which person I had wanted as tribune. It's your actions today after you became tribune that got you on the LoE.

[Mastermind of Sin]

hell MoS-if i can put up with you acting scummy in every game, im damn sure you can deal with a bit of newbieness.
i agree that your 'assignment' as you call it, was a good idea, but after that your contributions have been lacking. I know that time might have been an issue, but i have repeatedly asked you to comment on particular other players-in an attempt to do the town the same courtesy it has done to you.
oh and yes, I do consider Zindaras to be an easy lynch choice at this stage, considering some controversial comments he has made. early scummy behaviour and his successful day 1 have thrust him into the limelight. Unfortunately for you, you forgot he was a tribune eh?

another home truth MoS, good player as you may be, Mafia isnt about 'surviving till endgame'. Any old lurker can do that just by keeping out of the limelight. In truth, its significantly better to get killed erly on in the game, if you can make a valid contribution to the town beforehand. dont forget, you dont have to be alive to win as protown. I will probably die soon in this game, but as long as the townies outlive the scum, i can still call it a victory. Ill call things how i see them. If scum want to kill me for that, at least im taking the bullet for another player-perhaps one like yourself, who doesnt care so much about the result, but more about his own personal survival.

Ah, but if I can survive until endgame, I have the chance to win the game for the town. Too many times have I been killed early on and had the town fail, despite significant contributions on my part, including pointing out multiple scum for them before my death (hence the reason for my demise). The reason I would like to live until endgame is not about personal survival, it's about wanting the town to actually win. I don't trust our endgame to players like yourself, who constantly make moves that will either get them lynched or just simply get another townie lynched, neither of which help us find the scum.

havent had time to read?
thats odd, coz as soon as you came under the slightest bit of suspicion, you have been back here defending yourself like mad. maybe if you spent less time splitting my posts up into chunks and then fail to answer them, you might be able to salvage enough time to RE-read TEOM. I'd just like confirmation that that is your stance.

BM

If you bothered to read the V/LA thread, I was gone for Friday/Saturday/Sunday, and when I came back on Monday I started posting again and being active. However, given the fact that I am currently engaged in several heated discussions in many mafia games, those take far more precedence over indulging you by rereading someone who I can't do anything about until tomorrow anyways, since I've already found a scum for today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

No shit!? Damn, that makes me wish I'd had more time to choose an execution. Oh well, one does what one can. At least he's dead.

Umm, well this sucks. I don't really see many good candidates for Tribune.

3. TheEyeOfMordor - I reread his posts, I don't see anything scum about him. BM is just spouting crap, especially when he refuses to extrapolate for us.
4. Yosarian2(replacing TheJiveMachine(replacing Cheesefan)) - Nothing but lurking, I'm not about to elect a new replacement
5. ubertimmy - Lurker
7. Rand Althor - Slight Lurker, just hasn't contributed much
8. Twito - Lurker, bad access
13. Battle Mage - Horrible logic all game, I wouldn't trust him with any sort of power role even if everyone else in the game was scum
14. Mastermind of Sin - unlikely to get elected just because Kison wasn't scum, lol
18. Raffles - Possible tribune
19. Cephrir - Lurker, not much contribution
20. Occult(replacing livingod) - New replacements

Of everyone in the game, I would only support myself, TEOM, and Raffles as Tribunes right now. The other players aren't even possibilities at this point. Electing any of them would be highly illogical.

Vote: ThyEyeOfMordor for Tribune

[Mastermind of Sin]

LoL, where did I try hard to become Tribune? I posted an "election speech" for the hell of it, and that was it. After that, I spent most of Day 1 defending myself against BM's ridiculous logic. As for yesterday, the crash caused me to not have enough time to finish out the day the way I'd wanted to. I don't see what's "odd" about that, since it was entirely external influences that caused Day 2 to go the way it did.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Like I said, I ran out of time.

[Mastermind of Sin]

ROFL.

Battle Mage, you do realize that no self-respecting scum is going to kill the guy that executed a townie on Day 2 while under fire from several members of the town, right? Do you think they're stupid?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, I'm still waiting for you to explain how TEOM is scum. I even went back and reread his posts, just like I said I would.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, BM, I would've also elected Shanba Tribune if he wasn't consul. I imagine that's why he WAS made consul. You're just grasping at straws, here. Try again, please.

[Mastermind of Sin]

ill analyse him again later. currently we are trying to find a protown player to act as a tribune. care to help, or do you intend to keep your vote on TEOM?

Also, I'm still waiting for you to explain how TEOM is scum. I even went back and reread his posts, just like I said I would.

I've given my opinion on everyone in the game (minus the Consuls) regarding a possible Tribune vote. You however, have not. Let's let everyone else decide who's being more helpful in this instance, shall we?

[Mastermind of Sin]

go on then, give your reasons for such a decision.

@Raffles-he only hates me coz i always know when he is scum.

Actually, BM, I would've also elected Shanba Tribune if he wasn't consul. I imagine that's why he WAS made consul. You're just grasping at straws, here. Try again, please.

I feel no reason to point out why Shanba looks protown. You could just read his posts, you know. [/BM]

[Mastermind of Sin]

A. I agree here, although your logic is dodgy.
B. Are you serious? last night the elephant did us a big favour. im not expecting it to be like that every night, but i wonder why you pick up on the 2nd kill today, rather than yesterday. Upset that your scumbuddy died?
C. probably but im not entirely sure.
D. WHAT?? You want a mass claim at this stage? on the assumption that most of us will be townies, how the hell do you expect us to weed out the scum with counter claims?
E. You could try getting them replaced...
F. I wouldnt agree with that. if you are town, you would feel happier knowing that a townie was in power, than an unknown.
G. I know that was what you wanted, but unfortunately its not hard to see through it.

Clearly he picked up on the second kill today because we have two dead Carthiginians, and no dead scum from the other group. This means that we need to start killing the other group before we lose too many more protown players.

[Mastermind of Sin]

thats really really weak.
and your sarcasm fails, because i DO provide reasons when i say someone is scum.
You seriously gotta get over your general problem with me, as it seems to be clouding your judgement in games. I cant believe you are scum in ALL of them lol.

ROFL, you're so blind to your own mistakes.

[Mastermind of Sin]

B. True enough, but your timing seems odd.
D. Obviously they will claim townie now you have brought this to everyones attention.
E. As i said, how about REPLACING THEM. That will sure as hell get somthing out of them, rather than lynching them for the hell of it.

BM, are you really this dense, or are you just trying to make a mockery out of this game? Clearly TEOM was referring to voting as in voting someone for tribune. He saw no point in voting a lurker for Tribune unless they speak up and prove themselves.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why is there all this support for the eye of morder? He didn't really stand out to me in my initial read-though. Can someone explain?

Because he's not a lurker, not a replacement, and not scummy. Everyone else falls under one or more of those categories. Raffles is the only other exception, for the most part.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yeah, I could support that.

vote:Raffles

. However, if MOS would like to clarify exactally why he thought Raffles was scummy enough to be on his LOE yesterday, that might be helpful; the only argument he made was he suggested a possible Raffles/Kirson link, which is obveously now irrelvent. Any other reasons for your suspicions on Raffles yesterday, MOS?

Most of the suspicion I saw was based on a connection between the two, which is why I went with Kison instead.

Tribunal Vote Count

Raffles - 3(Cephrir, Shanba, Yosarian2)
TheEyeOfMordor - 1(Mastermind of Sin)
Yosarian2 - 1(Battle Mage)

[Mastermind of Sin]

I understand why I didn't self-vote Day 1, but when there are no other options for Tribune, there is no good reason NOT to self-vote.

[Mastermind of Sin]

unvote

[Mastermind of Sin]

I have something to say about what people are saying about me, but I'd like to wait until we get everyone's opinion so I can catch as many people in the rebuttal as possible. I don't want people to change what they're going to say and act like they didn't think about it before I pointed it out. Zindy, remind me about this when you get everyone's response.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Cephrir - Not a lot of content from him, most posts are not overly scummy. He's not very committal to anything, which makes it hard to get a read on him. In my notes, I had him marked down as having a possible connection with Primate (for those of you that would try to accuse me of copying this logic from someone else or anything, note that I asked Cephrir to comment on Primate yesterday when I was giving my assignments, and BEFORE we knew Primate was scum), and knowing now that Primate was scum only makes this possibility stronger to me.

I'd give him a 7/9 on being scum.

Battle Mage - I think I've already made my opinion of Battle Mage pretty clear so far this game and have commented on most of his actions as they happened.

6/9 as scum

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yos2, would you mind doing an analysis of Zindaras while you're at it? That'd be greatly appreciated if we could see your opinion of him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Occult, would you also mind giving your opinion of Zindaras?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Alright, thanks.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ok, thanks for the input.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Well, Shanba, I gotta thank you for putting in the time for this analysis. You've only strengthened my suspicions of Zindaras, catching quite a few things I hadn't noticed. I think your Elephant theory is spot on.

PART 2:

MoS... I indicated I thought he was pro-town earlier, but upon re-reading I no longer do. First off, there's the vote count Zindaras referenced earlier in his execution post day 1. This is what I meant when I said I would come back to that post later

Mastermind of Sin - 4(Zindaras, Primate, TheEyeOfMordor, ~N9V~)
Raffles - 4(Raffles, Cephrir, Battle Mage, Panzerjager)

Right. Look at the players on the MoS wagon at that point: Zindaras, TheEyeOfMordor,

Primate, ~N9V~.

Isn't that interesting. Two scum out of four on his wagon, plus Zindie and TEOM. Now, shall we look at MoS' interactions with TEOM?

TEOM is right.

Ok, nothing there, he's simply supporting TEOM against Battle Mage.

now we're getting somewhere *edit out smiley* Don't forget TEOM, Battle Mage. ^_^

This is after BM analyzes Kison, nothing useful.

read him before the crash, and I found him neutral, leaning towards slightly scummy. I've hardly had time to do much reading since then, but you know that. We've gone over this already, haven't we?

Boom. Now this is interesting. and this is why:

Of everyone in the game, I would only support myself, TEOM, and Raffles as Tribunes right now. The other players aren't even possibilities at this point. Electing any of them would be highly illogical.

and then he votes TEOM for tribune.

And? I read TEOM again in more detail today, going through the list of everyon that was alive, and I came to the conclusion that he wasn't as scummy as I'd thought he was before (which was hardly at all, to be fair).

BM, are you really this dense, or are you just trying to make a mockery out of this game? Clearly TEOM was referring to voting as in voting someone for tribune. He saw no point in voting a lurker for Tribune unless they speak up and prove themselves.

Let TEOM talk for himself.

I fail to see how I was saying anything new that TEOM would've had to say for himself. It was pretty clear by TEOM's post what he meant, so what's the problem with me correcting BM's ridiculous assumptions?

Clearly he picked up on the second kill today because we have two dead Carthiginians, and no dead scum from the other group. This means that we need to start killing the other group before we lose too many more protown players.

And again. But then: TEOM makes his weird post about not self voting, and MoS drops him like a wet fish. Dodgy. So where were we? We had Primatescum, N9Vscum and TEOM dodgy interactions voting MoS for tribune day 1. This does not look good.

Wait. So, TEOM does something very scummy, and I'm scummy for thinking that he's now scummy because of it? WTF?

uhh, missed these first time round

Did you mean to say MoS instead of mole?

I reread his posts, I don't see anything scum about him. BM is just spouting crap, especially when he refuses to extrapolate for us.

This is interesting given he said a few posts before that TEOM was neutral leaning scummy.

Now, MoS has also been on BM's case the whole game. In his case, I have seen him do it elsewhere, but I do not understand why this makes him scum this game. Noone has provided a real case against BM except his poor logic, which with BM is a given. So I find this opportunistic too.

BM's poor logic is more than enough reason to execute him, to be honest, in any game. If he's scum, he does a damn good job of distracting and disorienting the town, and if he's protown, then he does a horrible job of helping the town get anywhere useful, and does the scum's work for them. As a result, no scum would ever want to kill him, so we have to lynch him if we're ever going to have peace of mind and be able to concentrate on actually finding scum. That's not to mention the fact that he COULD very well be scum.

Initial LoE: Battle Mage, Kison, Raffles, Zindaras

This has been said before, but this is identical to Zindaras simply with him added. I don't get the logic there, does he think Zindaras is throwing all his buddies under the bus in one fell swoop? However, more importantly, I would like to know the connection MoS felt he saw between Kison and Raffles, as Raffles has been in my pro-town camp for a long while and I haven't seen any reason to move him from it.

Where did I say that I felt everyone on my LoE was scum together? Kison and Raffles were the only two people on the LoE that I felt a connection from, giving the way that they had avoided talking about each other on Day 2 even though others were talking about them individually, especially Kison. Obviously, I was wrong, which is why I no longer feel that Raffles is particularly scummy. Which reminds me:

Vote: Raffles for Tribune

, as I had previously mentioned.

There's almost certainly more that I've missed about MoS, but one thing I would note is:

Yeah, I agree with AndrewS' point 2. I hate self-voting and try to avoid it unless I feel it's truly necessary.

I understand why I didn't self-vote Day 1, but when there are no other options for Tribune, there is no good reason NOT to self-vote.

I don't, please elaborate.

Sure. Why vote myself for Tribune when I can support a perfectly good candidate that is not myself? I DO hate self-voting, but that only really applies when there are other candidates worth voting for, which TEOM didn't feel was the case today. I felt that AndrewS would do a great job as Tribune, so after saving my vote and looking at my options, I voted for him instead of myself.

Anything else?

[Mastermind of Sin]

i agree that the case for Zindy being the elephant is strong, but i dont want to lynch based on that alone. If we are only going to lynch someone based on an inkling they might be an SK, id frankly much rather kill more certain scum.
BM

Wait, if the case is "strong", then how is it just an "inkling" that he might be an SK?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thanks.

[Mastermind of Sin]

As i read through the last few posts, just wanted to pick this out:

BM's poor logic is more than enough reason to execute him, to be honest, in any game. If he's scum, he does a damn good job of distracting and disorienting the town, and if he's protown, then he does a horrible job of helping the town get anywhere useful, and does the scum's work for them. As a result, no scum would ever want to kill him, so we have to lynch him if we're ever going to have peace of mind and be able to concentrate on actually finding scum. That's not to mention the fact that he COULD very well be scum.

The irony here, as always with MoS, is hilarious. Note that, whilst criticising my poor logic, he simultaneously declares that he will lynch me, based on the fact that i MIGHT be scum. He doesnt even say im more likely than anyone else.

Way to twist my words, BM. I said that your poor logic is

enough

to lynch you, not that I wanted you lynched right now, i.e. there is good reasoning for you to be killed, whether or not you are the top suspect. Had you paid attention to my posts, you would know that I rated Cephrir as more likely scum than yourself, so you're NOT the one I want to lynch today.

His suspicions seem to be solely based on the fact that i suspect him to be scum, and are thus OMGUS. Make a note, all players who think that experience makes for a better player. MoS, you really need to think about the basics of Mafia before you start influencing the gameplay of others.

This coming from the person who thinks I'm scum in just about every game and never stopped to wonder how the hell I could be scum THAT often.

Also, you should get your facts straight first. I am far more often NKed than lynched.[/quote[

Yes, vigs are an amazing invention, aren't they?

[Mastermind of Sin]

bah, stupid quotes.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So are you denying that you repeatedly said that I should be executed in Kingmaker and told your replacement to get me killed, or that you, until quite recently, were heavily advocating lynching me in Mafia vs. Wolves? Not to mention that you were not advocating that I was scum in RFM until you came up with a guilty investigation on me. I don't know your alignment in either game, so I won't speculate on it (plus, we can't do that anyways), but regardless of alignment, it still stands that you have repeatedly thought I was scum in most of the games I'm in with you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

*Eats Popcorn*

I got a question....

I'm finding BM quite scummy from all of this, yet he really isn't considered to be anti-town by most of the players it seems. Why is that? Is this just the way he happens to play?

I've tried SO hard to give him benefit of the doubt...

Tribunal Vote Count

Raffles - 4(Cephrir, Shanba, Yosarian2, Mastermind of Sin)
Yosarian2 - 2(Battle Mage, Raffles)

[Mastermind of Sin]

note that my affiliation in both those games is unknown, thus such analyses cannot be made accurately. note that in neither did i ever make a strong case against you. I would go into more detail, but the last time i did that, i got warned for talking about games currently in progress.
note also that YOUR affiliation in those games is not necessarily known to me either.

So are you denying that you repeatedly said that I should be executed in Kingmaker and told your replacement to get me killed, or that you, until quite recently, were heavily advocating lynching me in Mafia vs. Wolves? Not to mention that you were not advocating that I was scum in RFM until you came up with a guilty investigation on me. I don't know your alignment in either game, so I won't speculate on it (plus, we can't do that anyways), but regardless of alignment, it still stands that you have repeatedly thought I was scum in most of the games I'm in with you.

ROFL. Did you even READ my post, or did you just assume that I didn't think it through? Had you read my post, you would notice that I already addressed the fact that our alignments are unknown. What your alignment in those games is is irrelevant, which is the only reason I CAN refer to those ongoing games in passing. The fact that you do not know my alignment in those games is also irrelevant, since the original point was asking if you truly believed that I could be scum in all those games at once. In addition, you have not made a strong case against me in ANY game, including this one (RFM excluded, for obvious reasons), so that's why I pointed out that you think I'm scum in almost every game. You repeatedly try to build suspicion against me in games we play together, without actually putting together a decent set of logic to show that I'm scum. So, your post was pretty much completely irrelevant, BM. Please try to read my posts before bringing up points that I've responded to in advance.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Will you stop discussing who has the bigger penis and get back to the task at hand, finding second tribune.

Yos seems fine to me, I suppose.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Where have I made any assumption as to your alignment? Saying that you said I was scum does NOT presume you to be of a particular alignment. It merely points out the fact that there is a recurring theme in your posts concerning your apparent views on my own alignment throughout most of our games.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Remind me that I have something else to say about Cephrir once everyone posts their input.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ok, now I'm scared. that was probably the most coherent and cohesive post I've ever seen from BM.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yea, I don't think the N9V lynch is any real indication that Zindie is scum. I believe that, whatever his alignment is, he genuinely figured out that N9V was scum. However, that still doesnt't preclude him from being an elephant...

"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse." Vote Count

No votes yet.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's the whole TEOM section. The basic premise of this section was this: there was a vote count showing two scum voting you for tribune. I remembered that I had been suspicious of your interactions with TEOM already, so I went through and isolated what I thought was suspicious. I saw two scum and one person who I feel has a connection to you voting for you.

TEOM had lurked a bit during the game and hadn't really said anything I felt was pro-town so I found your vote for him interesting. I don't understand that you can be that sure enough of his pro-townness to vote him tribune and then be swayed in your opinion by one odd action. In fact, I reckon it's more likely that he is your scumbuddy and that you changed your mind on him when it became apparent that he wasn't going to live up to the pro-town ideal you needed from him.

Did you then fail to notice that the only reason I supported TEOM as a tribune candidate was because everyone else was either a lurker, replacement, Consul, or completely scummy to me? TEOM and Raffles were the only two people at the time that did not fall into any of those categories. Even though TEOM was slightly scummy (not anywhere near the top of my list enough to worry about, though), he was the best choice I had. I gave him a chance with my vote, and he acted even scummier, so I don't trust him with it anymore.

Besides all that, you failed to even acknowledge the original point: two out of four people voting you for tribune mid day 1 were scum.

And your theory is that Day 1 is so important to scum that they decided to risk it and all vote scumbuddy MoS for tribune? And if I was one of their scumbuddies, why didn't I try to come up with a reason to veto the N9V execution?

Now, MoS has also been on BM's case the whole game. In his case, I have seen him do it elsewhere, but I do not understand why this makes him scum this game. Noone has provided a real case against BM except his poor logic, which with BM is a given. So I find this opportunistic too.

BM's poor logic is more than enough reason to execute him, to be honest, in any game. If he's scum, he does a damn good job of distracting and disorienting the town, and if he's protown, then he does a horrible job of helping the town get anywhere useful, and does the scum's work for them. As a result, no scum would ever want to kill him, so we have to lynch him if we're ever going to have peace of mind and be able to concentrate on actually finding scum. That's not to mention the fact that he COULD very well be scum.

Day 1 you indicated that you didn't think BM should be executed simply because his logic was crap. I don't believe he should be executed simply because his logic is crap, because I believe him to be pro-town and every pro-town player is an extra warm body.

On Day 1, no. I've given BM leeway for his craplogic, but he's far too detrimental to the town's operation in general to leave alive for too long like this. I don't want to get to endgame and have a protowner execute a townie BM because he's been acting so goddamned scummy all game and we gave him a free ride because that's how he always acts. But on Day 1, I'm willing to give him a chance to make things right.

[Mastermind of Sin]

And your theory is that Day 1 is so important to scum that they decided to risk it and all vote scumbuddy MoS for tribune? And if I was one of their scumbuddies, why didn't I try to come up with a reason to veto the N9V execution?

Primate says hi. This is not an argument.

The second part of that quote is not an argument. Point taken, but the rest still stands. I forgot that Primate was scumtribune with veto. Oh well, sucks for me.

"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse." Vote Count

Battle Mage - 2(Occult, TheEyeOfMordor)
TheEyeOfMordor - 1(Battle Mage)

[Mastermind of Sin]

The first part of the argument is nothing more than "It cannot be true, so it isn't true." Simply saying it does not make it impossible to be true. There must be reasoning.

Though, to be fairly honest, it is not a very strong argument against you anyway, because the scum already had a scum Consul, and thus didn't need a scum Tribune as well. Regardless, they could've just planted you there to be impossible to execute.

The point is, however, whatever way you see it, WIFOM (at least up to a certain level).

Actually, the first part of my argument is wanting to know if he

actually

finds that a plausible and likely thing to happen. As for it being WIFOM, pretty much EVERY defense can be argued as WIFOM of some kind. That doesn't make it WIFOM worth mentioning as a point against it. This was not a case where there were advanatages to making me tribune that were at least close to equal or outweighed what would happen when they were found out as scum. It's not like me and my scumbuddies discussed this before the game and decided that we should try to elect me tribune, because then if the rest of us die, MoS can argue that no scumgroup would ever risk themselves to make a buddy tribune Day 1. Or is that what you think DID happen?

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's the whole TEOM section. The basic premise of this section was this: there was a vote count showing two scum voting you for tribune. I remembered that I had been suspicious of your interactions with TEOM already, so I went through and isolated what I thought was suspicious. I saw two scum and one person who I feel has a connection to you voting for you.

TEOM had lurked a bit during the game and hadn't really said anything I felt was pro-town so I found your vote for him interesting. I don't understand that you can be that sure enough of his pro-townness to vote him tribune and then be swayed in your opinion by one odd action. In fact, I reckon it's more likely that he is your scumbuddy and that you changed your mind on him when it became apparent that he wasn't going to live up to the pro-town ideal you needed from him.

Did you then fail to notice that the only reason I supported TEOM as a tribune candidate was because everyone else was either a lurker, replacement, Consul, or completely scummy to me? TEOM and Raffles were the only two people at the time that did not fall into any of those categories. Even though TEOM was slightly scummy (not anywhere near the top of my list enough to worry about, though), he was the best choice I had. I gave him a chance with my vote, and he acted even scummier, so I don't trust him with it anymore.

I didn't fail to notice that. I think it's a crap argument though. How does someone being a replacement make them a worse choice for tribune? In fact, you even said that you would have voted me for tribune had I not been consul. Also, tribune is hardly such a crucial position that a lurker can't be trusted with it.

You had been around and participated. I felt I had a read on you and feel you are protown. The others were replacements that had not posted or been tested yet. Until I get a read on them, a replacement is no better than a lurker. For example, now that Yos has been around and contributed to the game, I don't have a problem with him being Tribune.

If tribune is hardly a crucial position, why would the mafia risk themselves to put a scumbuddy in the position when they already had a Consul that could protect them if needed?

Besides all that, you failed to even acknowledge the original point: two out of four people voting you for tribune mid day 1 were scum.

And your theory is that Day 1 is so important to scum that they decided to risk it and all vote scumbuddy MoS for tribune? And if I was one of their scumbuddies, why didn't I try to come up with a reason to veto the N9V execution?

I can see scum supporting a scum wagon, no matter what day it is.

See my question above. You are assuming that the scum will not consider the risk factors. Your statement is the equivalent of saying that you think scum will always say their partners are protown, no matter what day it is. If they did, that would make things a lot easier, but you and I both know that no scumgroup would be that obvious about it.

Now, MoS has also been on BM's case the whole game. In his case, I have seen him do it elsewhere, but I do not understand why this makes him scum this game. Noone has provided a real case against BM except his poor logic, which with BM is a given. So I find this opportunistic too.

BM's poor logic is more than enough reason to execute him, to be honest, in any game. If he's scum, he does a damn good job of distracting and disorienting the town, and if he's protown, then he does a horrible job of helping the town get anywhere useful, and does the scum's work for them. As a result, no scum would ever want to kill him, so we have to lynch him if we're ever going to have peace of mind and be able to concentrate on actually finding scum. That's not to mention the fact that he COULD very well be scum.

Day 1 you indicated that you didn't think BM should be executed simply because his logic was crap. I don't believe he should be executed simply because his logic is crap, because I believe him to be pro-town and every pro-town player is an extra warm body.

On Day 1, no. I've given BM leeway for his craplogic, but he's far too detrimental to the town's operation in general to leave alive for too long like this. I don't want to get to endgame and have a protowner execute a townie BM because he's been acting so goddamned scummy all game and we gave him a free ride because that's how he always acts. But on Day 1, I'm willing to give him a chance to make things right.

Geh. I'm not comfortable executing someone just because if I don't he might be executed later on. I'd much rather execute someone I think is scum.

As would I, which is why I have not and am not advocating him as the preferred lynch for today. That doesn't change the fact that I wouldn't raise much of a fuss if someone decided to execute him, other than to be miffed that the more obvious scum weren't killed first.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, the first part of my argument is wanting to know if he

actually

finds that a plausible and likely thing to happen. As for it being WIFOM, pretty much EVERY defense can be argued as WIFOM of some kind. That doesn't make it WIFOM worth mentioning as a point against it. This was not a case where there were advanatages to making me tribune that were at least close to equal or outweighed what would happen when they were found out as scum. It's not like me and my scumbuddies discussed this before the game and decided that we should try to elect me tribune, because then if the rest of us die, MoS can argue that no scumgroup would ever risk themselves to make a buddy tribune Day 1. Or is that what you think DID happen?

There is indeed a trade-off between the alternatives. It is indeed an unlikely trade-off to be made. However, we cannot gaze into the minds of scumbags. I have often seen scumbags do things that they shouldn't have done. Often, when scum does something no one expects scum to do, it is because scum have a different point of view (which stands to reason). For all we know, you had to be Tribune Day 1 or die or something like that.

LoL! That's gotta be some of the worst reasoning ever. Using that sort of logic, I could argue that every person in this game is scum, because of some fabricated little thing that the scum might've had to do on Day 1.

[Mastermind of Sin]

One worth risking it all Day 1?

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: Gaining an extra veto wasn't that strong of an ability...

[Mastermind of Sin]

One worth risking it all Day 1?

So, are you actually trying to argue that scum are less likely to vote one of their partners for tribune on day 1? I don't see how that follows. It's not a huge advantage for the scum, sure, but I can't see how having one of the scum as tribune could be considered a disadvantage for the scum, unless he uses the tribune powers in a really stupid way.

And that being said, I also can't really see you as scum sticking your neck out to protect N9V; N9V's one of those players that tends to get lynched early and often no matter what his role is, so vetoing his execution on day 1 would be a pretty silly risk for a scum to take, especally as N9V'd probably end up executed on day 2 or 3 anyway, no experenced scum would want to make a link between you and him that obveous that early in the game. Too high risk, too low payoff.

So if you're trying to argue that you becoming tribune and not vetoing N9V day 1 is evidence you're town, I don't buy it. I tend to think you would have done that no matter what your alignment is.

Actually, Zindaras already made a similar point, and I conceded, so I'm not trying to argue that it's evidence that I'm protown. However, I would point out that as far as I can remember, this is the first game I've ever played with N9V, so I wouldn't know that he was likely to be killed early. Just sayin'. Still doesn't make me more protown.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What Cephrir case? All you did was link to all his posts and call them irrelevant. You haven't explained why you find him scummy. Now, that's not saying I don't agree that he's scummy, since if you had read my posts in the past, you would know that I already posted a case against Cephrir myself in response to you asking me to share my thoughts about him. This request seems rather redundant.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What Cephrir case? All you did was link to all his posts and call them irrelevant. You haven't explained why you find him scummy. Now, that's not saying I don't agree that he's scummy, since if you had read my posts in the past, you would know that I already posted a case against Cephrir myself in response to you asking me to share my thoughts about him. This request seems rather redundant.

Seriously?

-Relation with Primate, as stated before.
-Odd relation with AndrewS.
-Votes BM, doesn't want him executed, then he does want him executed, then he doesn't. There is no reason to vote someone you don't want executed. Very flip-floppy.
-End of Day One, he wants timmy, livingod or AndrewS (town) gone. Not BM, who he is still voting. As said before, livingod was the popular wagon Day One. Plus, livingod and timmy were on the list purely for lurking, while there were (many) other lurkers, like N9V-scum. Day Two, his suspicions change completely. Now it's Raffles, Kison and BM. He thinks BM is just being BM, which has suddenly become a reason to execute him. livingod and timmy have disappeared completely from the radar, and now it's the new popular choices (Kison and Raffles) that need to go.
-Relation with Raffles. In his second post, he votes Raffles for Tribune, becaues he's getting a pro-town vibe on him that he's not getting on other people. After that, he tries to get off the whole subject. In Post 17, he agrees with a Raffles execution but also slightly defends him, putting the other subjects ahead. Classic scumbuddy behaviour. And in Post 22, he suddenly thinks Raffles should be Tribune.

Ceprhir-Raffles-MoS. That's the way to go.


Also, BM, who are the alternatives you desire?

Erm, why am I on your LoE?

[Mastermind of Sin]

You're not on my LoE. There is only one person in my LoE and that's Cephrir.

Now, tomorrow, I want Raffles executed. Again, not you. Then, only the day after tomorrow, if Cephrir and Raffles both turn up scum, I think you should die. And that's because I'm getting odd vibes from you, connecting you to Cephrir and Raffles.

How am I connected to Cephrir and Raffles?

[Mastermind of Sin]

im not sure your choices make sense. I mean, you have said i was scum since the start of Day 1. if you were town, you would have killed me by now. Im not believing your claim atm, though if Zindy says that the role name makes sense, maybe it is true...

Rofl, so...staying his hand to give you a chance to prove yourself makes him scum?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I actually think his claim makes a lot of sense. The fact that he messed up his night choices and then immediately corrected them makes me more positive that he's genuine about it, too.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Makes sense.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I actually think his claim makes a lot of sense. The fact that he messed up his night choices and then immediately corrected them makes me more positive that he's genuine about it, too.

So what about this, Mossydear?

I didn't find it likely that he would mess up a fake claim like that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You agreed with his targets? Because, if I'm looking at that post, it looks a whole lot like you don't want Cephrir to die.

I hadn't considered the targets at that point in time. I was merely acting on the fact that he had messed up in reporting his targets. I don't remember anything about TS. I don't have a problem with Cephrir dying. You might recall, I did my own analysis where I recommended a Cephrir execution earlier. I wavered on this due to the way he acted, but your recent revelation was more concrete evidence than the gut feeling I was acting on.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hmm, I totally didn't notice that HackerHuck was an RBer...*sigh*...

Did Cephrir ever give a reason for killing TS, or is he just focusing on convincing us to let him live another day? If he hasn't, that's not gonna cut it. It's a common scum ploy to try and just live another day by claiming a confirmable role. Unless he can back up his night actions, it's not worth the risk from our end, especially since we don't have any viable backup candidates right now (they'd get Veto'd).

[Mastermind of Sin]

Not really. Tribune or not, if Yos was Cephrir's scumbuddy, it's way too late to defend him. He can't veto the execution, because there's no good reason to. His comment had nothing to do with defending Cephrir. You're just overanxious because he supported killing you, and of course, anyone who wants to kill Battle Mage is probably scum, right?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't see why "easily confimable role" fails to persuade anyone though. Why does it matter if I'm a mafiate trying to live an extra day? I'd just be executed tomorrow. As I'm writing this post, it occurs to me how scummy it sounds, but I'm so dead it doesn't really matter. Feel free to execute BM when I turn up town.

Because having you kill another (possibly protown) person just to prove your own innocence (and it wouldn't prove you innocent, just that you could be an SK or a Vig) doesn't really help.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Zindaras

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh. Whoops. I forgot we were voting for Tribunes. Ain't no way I want Zindaras as Tribune. I was voting him for being scum

unvote, Vote For Tribune: Shanba

[Mastermind of Sin]

Aww. You don't trust the Mossy?

[Mastermind of Sin]

But I do agree that there aren't really any good choices.

[Mastermind of Sin]

:'(

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hmm. I still object to giving scum power, but if there's no way our consuls will consider executing him, we don't really have a choice. I'd be really mad at our consulmaker if they elected such consuls, though.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Occult, care to chip in?

[Mastermind of Sin]

*sigh*

Another reason I would suggest not making Zindaras a Tribune is that he's been lurking in most of his games lately, so he's not very active right now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I hate our Consuls.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Shanba is the best candidate for Tribune right now. Zindaras is a very bad candidate.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: So it makes sense that BM would vote Shanba.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sure you can. Refusing to execute or consider executing Zindaras is worse.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Even Twito agrees

[Mastermind of Sin]

hmm, not a bad point. I was ignoring BM in MAD mafia, so I didn't notice

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wow, do I even need to point out how useless that argument of BM's was?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Did I say you weren't town?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I was sure you were scum yesterday, as well. Shanba convinced me of that, but there's no use going after you on a day you can't die, other than just saying I believed you were scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Please say exactly where you put them in your scum-range, on a 1 to 9 scale. (1-3 being town, 4-6 being unsure, 7-9 being scum. (1 to 9 to make the gradations nicer)

Ok. Battle mage: Seems about normal behavior for him; lots of activity, some weak logic and a few weird, but I don't think that's really a scum tell for him. His pro-town play, from what I've seen, is so odd it's hard applying any normal standards to him, I don't really know how to read him personally yet, so let's just say that I see no clear read on him at the moment. I'd say about a 4 or 5.

Cephir: Don't really like his voting history, and he's used little logic for his posts and his votes. Nothing in his posting history makes me think he's a pro-town player looking for scum. 7

MOS: Getting some mixed signals from him, but definatly suspicious of him. Really don't like his LOE yesterday; he says he "didn't have time" to do better, but he was console for the whole day, he should have had time to put more thought into his suspicions then that post showed. 8

I'm pretty sure that post you quoted was in response to this post by Yos2, but I can't remember what it was I wanted to say about it. I guess I should've written it down or something :/. Oh well...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Zindaras, your post 912 was just the argument devolving into "You did something scummy!"..."No I didn't, your reasoning is bonkers!"..."Yes you did!"..."No I didn't!"..."Ya-huh!"..."Nu-uh!"...

I don't fault Shanba for not responding to that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I feel that it's strong enough that he shouldn't be entrusted with the Tribune position.

[Mastermind of Sin]

1. Zindaras - I've already explained why I don't want him to be tribune
4. Yosarian2(replacing TheJiveMachine(replacing Cheesefan)) - I would trust Yos2 as a tribune
5. ubertimmy - lurker
7. Rand Althor - lurker
8. Twito - lurker
13. Battle Mage - can't be trusted with the position
14. Mastermind of Sin - I won't nominate myself
15. Shanba(replacing Panzerjager) - Should definitely be a tribune, most protown person in the game
18. Raffles - Could perhaps be a tribune, but is a Consul right now
20. Occult(replacing livingod) - Consul

So I would suggest Shanba (who I am already voting, that should have been obvious) and Yosarian2 as the Tribunes for today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Occult, would you also mind giving your opinion of Zindaras?

I would put him in a 3-6 range.

I don't know exactly how to take him. He nailed N9V, for lurking, but I recall that livingod had more "votes" on him. He could've executed a carthaginian to make himself look good and solidfy a townie feel.
The range is kinda big but I don't find him perticularly scummy neither do I find him town though.

Occult, has this changed at all?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Can we get a

replacement for ubertimmy

? He has not posted in over a month. In fact, his last post was to say that he wouldn't lurk Day 3, and it's already Day 4 and he hasn't made another post yet.

Twito also needs to contribute something to the game, all his posts have been contentless for a while.

Rand Althor needs to contribute as well.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I feel that it's strong enough that he shouldn't be entrusted with the Tribune position.

Orly?

TEOM (I believe it was him) specifically asked a question about second scum teams. I simply answered the question. Now, I answered this question, saying the elephants could be a second Mafia (not even an SK).

Now, what is your point? You'd have a point, if the elephants weren't the

only friggin' possibility

. As I've said before, there is no real surprise in answering a multiple-choice question correctly if there is only one possible answer.

Your reasoning for finding me scummy cannot lie in the fact that I answered the question. It lies in the fact that I answered the question correctly. But the fact that I answered the question correctly says nothing.

There is no other answer

. What should I have said, according to you? Nothing? How would

you

have answered that question?

I would not have expected Elephants to be a suggestion, nor would I have been able to come up with an answer to that question.

Also, I really really like how you pull out only a specific part of the post to respond to and not the whole post.

[Mastermind of Sin]

a bit of advice MoS. Considering how no tribune so far in this game has actually done their job to any extent, how do you suppose it is

I

who cannot be trusted with the position?

@BM, I wouldn't trust you with the tribune position even if there wasn't anybody playing.

QFT

<3 Occult

[Mastermind of Sin]

Occult, would you also mind giving your opinion of Zindaras?

I would put him in a 3-6 range.

I don't know exactly how to take him. He nailed N9V, for lurking, but I recall that livingod had more "votes" on him. He could've executed a carthaginian to make himself look good and solidfy a townie feel.
The range is kinda big but I don't find him perticularly scummy neither do I find him town though.

Occult, has this changed at all?

Not really, Im on the fence with Zindaras right now.

Also it seems that currently there arn't many people too suspicious of him right now.

If this is true, then why did you make this post:

I believe zindaras is a definite for tribune.

I looked over the game and he seems to be our best choice at this up right now. I think we should look at our next tribune now. I would post more but I'm off to graduation and won't be able to post until much later (which I will).

It seems to me that if you are still unsure of Zindaras' alignment, you wouldn't consider him to be an

obvious

tribune.

[Mastermind of Sin]

thats really not very helpful. are you 2 scum?

That's rich, coming from the Prince of "not helpful".





(Note: Baby Jesus is the King of Not Helpful, obviously)

[Mastermind of Sin]

<3 Shanba, too.

By they way, I drop my suspicion of Zindaras. I was wrong, but I like being stubborn =P. You defended yourself very admirably, congrats. ^_^

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, Occult, I think Shanba has the most support for Tribune right now. I don't think Zindaras has more than 1 or 2 votes, but a vote count could prove me wrong.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Shanba, what do you think of a Yos-Tribune?

[Mastermind of Sin]

lol, same here.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You better, ho.

<3

[Mastermind of Sin]

So, Consuls, who do you think we should execute?

[/omgz]

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thanks, BM.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Of course.

[Mastermind of Sin]

1. Zindaras - Tribune
4. Yosarian2(replacing TheJiveMachine(replacing Cheesefan))
5. ubertimmy - Being Replaced
7. Rand Althor - He's in the game? Oh yeah. I think he's town.
8. Twito - Inactive, still not back into the game yet
13. Battle Mage - BM
15. Shanba(replacing Panzerjager) - Tribune
18. Raffles - Consul
20. Occult(replacing livingod) - Consul

This is bad. I don't really know who to suggest. My tentative suggestions for execution would be Yos2 or Battle Mage. For Yos2, I just have an ugly feeling that he's playing us, but it's completely gut :/. For BM, he's scummy, but iunno. He's my second choice on a bad list of possible executions.

[Mastermind of Sin]

BM, what do you think of your predictions that MoS and Yos2 were scum for "defending" Cephrir? How does this compare to your prediction that TEOM was definitely scum? Why is Zindie a Tribune? Why are there no viable suspects for today?

[Mastermind of Sin]

FoS: Occult

Not that it matters... :/

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'd like to hear what our other Consul's plans for today are before I go any further.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: Not being a pain in the ass, def a reason for it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Shit, I'm not getting drunk until tonight...

"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse" Vote Count

No votes yet.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Shit, I'm not getting drunk until tonight...

Hehe...

So, I guess that means you just got the games confused then?

Now that I've gotten drunk and slept since then, I have no clue whether I got the games confused or had a reason for it. Shit.

[Mastermind of Sin]

well Yos has spent the last day and a bit chasing shadows. he's playing aggressively, which i have known him to do as scum. If he was town, id expect him to be far more perceptive. I mean Yos, you witnessed my play as scum first hand in MAD Mafia. im sure you will remember that my play was fairly cagey, and i wasnt atall aggressive. You also saw me as town, in Hell on Earth, in which i spent 2 days trying my damn hardest to get you (scum) lynched. So, please explain why you feel i am scum here, because i dont get it.

MoS has decided to take a laid back approach to the game, which i also find odd from him. his play earlier on was scummy, and the fact that he hasnt been killed, or been particularly proactive, are indications that something is wrong.

Please link to a game where you have "known" Yos to play aggressively as scum. Also, please link to a game where you have seen Yos play non-aggressively as town. If you cannot do these two things, you are just blowing smoke to try and disqualify Yos' arguments.

Do you have anything else to contribute about players other than the two who are attacking you, or do you just like to auto-OMGUS people without looking at anyone else?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yea that's not helping

[Mastermind of Sin]

1. Zindaras - Tribune
4. Yosarian2(replacing TheJiveMachine(replacing Cheesefan))
5. ubertimmy - Being Replaced
7. Rand Althor - He's in the game? Oh yeah. I think he's town.
8. Twito - Inactive, still not back into the game yet
13. Battle Mage - BM
15. Shanba(replacing Panzerjager) - Tribune
18. Raffles - Consul
20. Occult(replacing livingod) - Consul

This is bad. I don't really know who to suggest. My tentative suggestions for execution would be Yos2 or Battle Mage. For Yos2, I just have an ugly feeling that he's playing us, but it's completely gut :/. For BM, he's scummy, but iunno. He's my second choice on a bad list of possible executions.

i already have MoS. see Kelly Chen's Hell on Earth Mafia for aggressive-scum Yos. im not sure about Yos as town, but im sure he can direct you to something, if he wishes to prove his innocence.

fyi-i wasnt under the impression that YOU were attacking me. rather, i suggested that you could be a scum candidate DAYS ago, and since you have been attacking me.

@Yos-true, but i think you will find i WAS leading the case against Cephrir. i admit i was prehaps a little over-confident in him coming up scum.
still, thats a pretty sound explanation.

Quote(post 1096) removed to allow for Vote County goodness.

"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse" Vote Count

No votes yet.

Giving your name as one of my top 2 execution candidates did not give you the impression that I was suggesting you were scum?

Yos, can you link to a completed game where you were aggressive town?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yos: 1, BM: 0

BM, do you have a counter-argument to the example of Lights Out II? Can you argue logically that Yos did

not

play aggressively in that game?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yos: 1, BM: 0

BM, do you have a counter-argument to the example of Lights Out II? Can you argue logically that Yos did

not

play aggressively in that game?

this seems awful like a setup. until i have read the entirety of Lights Out 2 (which conveniently i did not play, and is an awesomely long game) Yos's comments mean very little.
I reccommend that you too MoS, read Light Out 2, and comment on whether you feel Yos is telling the truth. the fact you have not done so ALREADY is odd...

Town 1 - 0 MoS

It is not my responsibility to argue your case for you, BM. Nice try sluffing off the responsibility, though.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, I'm asking you and Yos these questions in order to find out whether one or both of you are scum. It is your interesting reactions that give me insight to your alignment.

Now, if you would, please continue proving that Yos is scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hardly. I don't need to read LO2 to find out if you are scum. You, however, do, because you are basing your argument against Yos on the fact that he behaved aggressively in another game, and was scum. This argument is only valid if you can prove that he does NOT play aggressively as town, so when Yos provided a counter-example, it is up to you to prove him wrong.

I, on the other hand, am not attacking Yos on the basis that his play in this game compares to his play in other games, so it is not necessary for me to read said games.

Although nice try moving responsibility off of yourself again. This is becoming a pattern. Can't handle a little questioning? I find it hard to believe that you are protown when you can't even back up your own attacks with proof that the "facts" you have presented are actually true.

[Mastermind of Sin]

well Yos has spent the last day and a bit chasing shadows. he's playing aggressively, which i have known him to do as scum. If he was town, id expect him to be far more perceptive. I mean Yos, you witnessed my play as scum first hand in MAD Mafia. im sure you will remember that my play was fairly cagey, and i wasnt atall aggressive. You also saw me as town, in Hell on Earth, in which i spent 2 days trying my damn hardest to get you (scum) lynched. So, please explain why you feel i am scum here, because i dont get it.

MoS has decided to take a laid back approach to the game, which i also find odd from him. his play earlier on was scummy, and the fact that he hasnt been killed, or been particularly proactive, are indications that something is wrong.

No, I wasn't lying. Your argument was based on his aggressiveness and the fact that you believe it to be his scum playstyle.

[Mastermind of Sin]

lies.

1. If you are town, you want to find out whether people are scum right?
so, why the hell would you be placing all your scumhunting on the shoulders of someone else, who's affiliation is uncertain. If you really cared about winning at this game, you would bother to make your own judgements, rather than sitting back and letting the game work itself out.
Just for this:

FOS: MoS

I'm not placing my scumhunting on anyone else's shoulders, but you apparently don't understand that, or at least are pretending not to. I am scumhunting by seeing your (and others') reactions to the questions I ask. What I'm doing is forcing you to support your own attacks on other people, something you are very forcefully trying to avoid doing by changing the subject back to me every time I bring it up. Well, it's not going to work. You *still* need to explain why your argument against Yos is correct, or at least admit that you were wrong about him being scum, if that is the case. You cannot both believe you are right and be unable to explain why he's scum at the same time, unless you are playing by gut, and you haven't said you are, so that's not an option here.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Where did I say that Yos's word about LO2 is gold? I didn't say I believed he was right, I asked for you to prove him wrong. Once again, your refusal to address this subject speaks for you. You can't prove him wrong, can you?

What case is there to review against Yos? You're the one who provided the case against him, and you haven't been willing to support your own case so far...

"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse" Vote Count

Rand Althor - 1(Sarcastro)

[Mastermind of Sin]

Rand, do you believe BM and Raffles are scumbuddies?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Rand Althor

[Mastermind of Sin]

just interesting that MoS wont practice what he preaches.

I am indeed practicing what I preach. I'm not making accusations against people that I can't back up if needed.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The fact that he has nothing else to say other than push the execution of the scummy-by-popular opinion BM sorta says something about him, wouldn't you think?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Occult has other contributions than that. Also, he is a consul. Not that I don't agree that he is scummy, though.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote: Rand Althor

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't see RandScum as pushing something so obviously wrong. I think he was being a stupid townie. Does anyone know of a game where Rand was scum?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ok yea, not seeing Rand as scum right now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Do you have a reason, or are you just having second thoughts about bussing him?

What are you talking about? It's not like this is the first post where I said I felt Rand was town. I just read the game he linked me to and reaffirmed my position on Rand's alignment.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Do you have a reason, or are you just having second thoughts about bussing him?

What are you talking about? It's not like this is the first post where I said I felt Rand was town. I just read the game he linked me to and reaffirmed my position on Rand's alignment.

Well, considering you were recently voting him, I would have expecting something in the way of a specific reason. What changed your mind?

I don't see RandScum as pushing something so obviously wrong. I think he was being a stupid townie. Does anyone know of a game where Rand was scum?