Tales of You (Endgame)

[CarbonFiber]

Ceph, where did Nacho push me in this game?

[CarbonFiber]

Sorry, I meant DV.

Anyway, I agree that his push on CF isn't amazing, but I know my degree of passion varies quite significantly as town, and ime it's similar with Nacho (I think it's especially hard after getting really invested in what turns out to be a mislynch so this makes sense as town for me)

Nacho hasn't pushed me anywhere and no one else said that it wasn't an amazing push (because it didn't exist), so who are you agreeing with?

[CarbonFiber]

Okay, Cabd's online. I am going to do it in 5 minutes.

[CarbonFiber]

Where do I rank?

[CarbonFiber]

^ That was at Tammy.

DV, I'm fine with you hammering if you want. Tammy taking a stand against lynching Cupcake inspires me as well.

[CarbonFiber]

Okay, Cabd's online. I am going to do it in 5 minutes.

Congrats scum team!

Gah, you are not trolling me like you did with Bert in Chosen Mafia, are you?

*Take a deep breath.*
*Tammy is town.*
*Ditch that paranoia.*
*Breathe out*

[CarbonFiber]

^ That was at Tammy.

DV, I'm fine with you hammering if you want. Tammy taking a stand against lynching Cupcake inspires me as well.

???

I was asking where I ranked compared to Nacho at reading you.

[CarbonFiber]

Do it now, DV.

[CarbonFiber]

I want to stay off the wagon for moral/personal purposes basically.

[CarbonFiber]

Falcon - Why were you advocating and practically goading DV into voting for a wagon you wanted to stay off of for moral/personal reasons? Especially if you didn't think cupcake was scum?

Moreover why haven't you been voting this game at all? I get that you are slow to vote, but I looked back at NY169 and you still voted there and argued for wagons. I realize with my voting record I'm the last person who should be asking this but it feels like you're overemphasizing your slowness to vote and your behavior.

I didn't think that anything besides a Cupcake wagon was going to happen yesterday no matter what. I thought he was going to flip town and people were on the wrong track. But I was also tired enough of the noise. It reached a point where I realized there was only going to be one direction in which the lynch would go so I thought I'd hammer and end it already. BUT, I didn't want to contribute to yet another crap lynch. I genuinely believed he was going to flip town, I just wanted to move on, see the flip, and get to the next day. So, I was waffling hard on whether or not to hammer. DV came in and said he wanted to hammer. I'd rather someone who actually wanted to hammer and thought that he would flip scum do it so I at least don't feel like I contributed to the shit state of the game. DV thought Cupcake would flip scum so he hammered. I didn't "goad" him, how the heck did I do that? I only okayed his decision to hammer.

I have been arguing for wagons here. I talked about how I was slow to vote because people asked me why I didn't have my vote on MastinSSK. There weren't enough spots on the wagon. Nacho didn't get one and neither did Stalin. The only person off the wagon who didn't want to vote MastinSSK was AP.

[CarbonFiber]

*sigh* I would just love it if once just once when a set of claims don't really point to obvscum and I try to slow it down people don't just forge ahead while ignoring me in the process.

Oh Tammy you so silly.

I did expect this game to be over though. I thought with the way yesterday went down and the annoying as fuck way that lynch happened, falcon looking at you, that scum had a way to end this game.

I pretty much feel like town is doomed here and were just gasping for breath waiting to be lead about either by scum or foolhardy town again. I don't even know how to parse through the mess.

My activity *might* be a bit less for the next few days. It's finals week.

In other news, I now suspect everyone.

I tried to slow things down as well. AP and Nacho were the ones rushing.

[CarbonFiber]

I came up with something but I'm not sure whether to talk about it yet. We didn't really talk in the neighborhood because I didn't trust Nacho. I asked him who his last partner was besides AP and Penguin. He didn't tell me. I asked after daystart him why he didn't kill you since you'd make it harder for him to blow his cover and get me mislynched. He didn't respond to that either.

[CarbonFiber]

Regarding the lynch:

I

was the one that was annoyed. I was right up there with you trying to argue that it was a bad choice of a lynch but at some point it hit me that it was a foregone conclusion so I decided better sooner rather than later. I was happy with DV hammering when he did. In an ideal scenario, we didn't lynch Cupcake. But lynching him then was better than lynching him at deadline with the way the day was going.

[CarbonFiber]

Yeah, I don't see where I goaded him other than a do it now in response to him saying he wants to.

I have you, JSU, PV, and RG as strong town with AP, Nacho, and Penguin as scum. Fox and Magenta are null.

[CarbonFiber]

You did though. You were like, uh I'm just gonna hammer. Okay you do it. I'll do it, no I wanna stay off for moral and personal reasons.

That was after katsuki finally showed up and started talking about the too many investigative claims, which by the way is the only person to actually notice that too even though I brought it up.

Notscience had shown up and was voting for Nacho.

I just don't get your behavior at all.

If DV didn't want to hammer, he wouldn't have.

I think I mentioned too that there were too many investigative claims as well. More than once I think.

If you had said not to hammer as opposed to being passive about it, I think I would have waited too. I just didn't see what else was going to come out of D3 other than the same old thing. Yeah, NotScience had shown up and wanted to wait a bit but I thought the chances of him getting killed were so miniscule that it didn't matter.

Idk, I was just frustrated enough that I wanted to see D3 end. I've kinda been like that this whole game which turned out to be a pretty huge mess.

[CarbonFiber]

If you have JSU as strong town are you arguing AP is the godfather?

Yeah, some variant of Orc's role in Vesperia.

[CarbonFiber]

The only other person I remember really trying to suggest that Cupcake was still town is Peregrine.

Falcon was too but mostly by a very complicated version in which AP was scum without JSU being scum.

Look, I am just as pissed off as you are about no one listening that Cupcake was town. I just didn't feel that anything would change. I am not sure if you think I as scum decided to burn all towncred from his townflip by deciding that I want to hammer instead of just shutting up and letting someone else do it. (Or, making a show of how I wouldn't hammer). I as town thought that Kats was town. I as town didn't want to vote him because I didn't want to contribute to yet another mislynch. I as town waffled on hammering him because if his lynch was a foregone conclusion, I want it to end sooner rather than later.

And I said plenty of times that there were too many investigative roles. I just happened to disagree with you on JSU, townreading them while scumreading AP.

[CarbonFiber]

CarbonFiber continues to pretend like he didnt shove a 3-way connection case between myself/rancid/mastin a lot of which occurred around the time PV used his janitor shot on RBD which is divey. Now that both of those have flipped town he just makes bullshit statements like "I just can't see AP being town here unless hes playing to his scummeta to troll mastin" and references mastins scumread on me as a reason for scumreading me. The thought proces sbehind all that is laden with cognitive dissonance and IDK Ive seen some people get that way as town (is F16 a MoI alt?) but his interactions with tammy are bad. He is overly calm and planned all game but goes into this OMH I CNT EVNE TPYE PRLOPELY rage at Tammy that I just dont even buy for a singular second. So I don't think Im just morphing my logic to fit what I WANT to see here, this slot is terrible and I dislike it. Is it terrible town though? Ehhhhhh? I sort of think hes been manipulating Tammy all game. I sort of think hes been casting doubt on the PA/Clyton slot for no real reason all game (called Clyton scum for the watcher claim but retracted it?) Fuck if I know what his read on that slot even is, he keeps waffling between "PA is PoE scum", "PA is scum" and "I want PA to be town maybe she is" like every other post.

I keep coming back to seeing PV/CF as scum but not feeling amazing about it. I could see PV just derpclaiming his role as town but I really dont get it. And if RBD was going to gladiate JSU that makes them a great target for scum if JSU is scum. I might be going to deep on spec here, god knows setup spec has done nothing but bite town at every turn this game.

Fake eidt: Ugh and FauxHound. I thought they looked really town on D1. Now I just have no idea whatsoever to make of them. Dv feels genuinely perplexed in people sumreading them I guess although that could just be good faked scumplay. Nothing they've done makes me want to call them town for sure except they seemed fairly town when getting wagoned on D1 but their lack of presence after getting wagoned is meh leaning towards "Are you guys a lurking Doctor or just scum?"

Will you stop pushing stuff that has already been explained? I don't feel like re-explaining.

[CarbonFiber]

I'm going to have to get to the remaining posts this evening.

[CarbonFiber]

Spoilering this shit because who wants to hear me rant about the same old thing for the tenth fucking time?

Spoiler: AngryPidgeon

CarbonFiber continues to pretend like he didnt shove a 3-way connection case between myself/rancid/mastin

I didn't "pretend" shit. I suspected you, Rancid, and Mastin. Now I suspect you. What am I pretending?

a lot of which occurred around the time PV used his janitor shot on RBD which is divey. Now that both of those have flipped town he just makes bullshit statements like "I just can't see AP being town here unless hes playing to his scummeta to troll mastin" and references mastins scumread on me as a reason for scumreading me.

Someone that knows your meta intimately was scumreading you. I am taking it into consideration.

The thought proces sbehind all that is laden with cognitive dissonance and IDK Ive seen some people get that way as town (is F16 a MoI alt?) but his interactions with tammy are bad. He is overly calm and planned all game but goes into this OMH I CNT EVNE TPYE PRLOPELY rage at Tammy that I just dont even buy for a singular second.

I not only explained it but Nacho explained this as well. It was illogical yes. But in the neighborhood, I was telling Nacho (as a joke), to blow his cover and come after me and to tell Tammy in the scum QT that the coast is clear that she should attack me as well. So, when Tammy voted me, I went "WTF, is it actually real." It is apparent to me now that I was imagining it and letting real life stressors affect me when I have no business playing mafia at a time like this.

So I don't think Im just morphing my logic to fit what I WANT to see here, this slot is terrible and I dislike it. Is it terrible town though? Ehhhhhh? I sort of think hes been manipulating Tammy all game.

Yeah, no shit I was playing badly. Two of my top suspects that I spent a mountain of effort pushing for a lynch flipped town. Who exactly is playing well in this game besides scum?

I sort of think hes been casting doubt on the PA/Clyton slot for no real reason all game (called Clyton scum for the watcher claim but retracted it?) Fuck if I know what his read on that slot even is, he keeps waffling between "PA is PoE scum", "PA is scum" and "I want PA to be town maybe she is" like every other post.

Have you never wanted people you like to play with to be town with you? I think PA is scum but hope that she is town and I am willing to work with her on that hope to sort her further. You are painting it like some sort of contradiction.[/quote]

[CarbonFiber]

You never addressed me or JSU pointing out that you claimed your role led you to believe there were multiple cop-esque roles but, in the same stride, you doubt the 2 claimed cop roles. Please do that.

Yes, I damn well did. Twice. Read my ISO.

[CarbonFiber]

Well then don't say you would have held off if I'd not been passive about it. I wasn't shy about how I felt about that lynch and the entire situation and didn't want the day to end there.

I gave up worrying because you looked like scum posturing around the wagon there at the end and the only reason I could figure out that you would do that was because you guys had some way to end the game through night actions.

And part of my problem is that you're not actually looking at everything. You're discounting some things because you have a *strong read* which is fine but coming up with new ways that AP is scum without for one second considering the possibility that JSU is scum is a whole metric fuckton of confirmation bias. I, for one, don't see how you can be so sure. I have postulated that you are so sure because you guys are partnered because it's really the only reason why you've been going on about AP but not really pushing him and then using the Mastin scum read AP so he's scum scum scum! When Mastin isn't all that great at reading AP; I mean in Anything Goes he was 100% certain AP was scum when he was town telling like crazy. The day two suggestion that it should be AP instead of Mastin after you declared that Pieguy was the only person you trusted to lead the town and Pieguy was tunneling on Mastin. Why did you all of a sudden decide to suggest the day should go away from where the leader was saying to go? In some instances you look like you're trying to tie your partner AP to people in a weird manner.

But you going yeah there are too many investigative roles, have a town read here and here, so this has to be the scum one doesn't really make sense to me. I can see leaning one way, but completely discounting everything else? It's just eh.

Regaeding the town leaded thing: you mentioned this several times now. When I said that Pie was the only person I trusted to lead the town, I was taking to Mastin. Mastin made a huge deal about how he has resurfaced from a bad game and has grown into a town leader. He talked extensively about how he would lead the town, how he would reach out to people, and how he was doing "leader-centric" reachouts and pretty much referring to himself as the town leader of the game. I responded to him by saying that I trust the guy tunneling him much more than I trusted him. It wasn't meant to take a dig at anyone else in the game nor was I trying to undermine any other player. I had a strong scum-read on Mastin and Pie was the only one who was really understanding (at that time) where I was coming from, defending my points against Mastin and speaking in a way that I could understand. His read never wavered and I could follow what he was doing at every point. It's why I trusted him. He was viewing the gamestate almost exactly as I was. Just like you trusted Ffery who waffled and waffled on Mastin, I trusted Pie who had a similar strong scumread on Mastin and was thinking about things exactly the way I was. I never meant to say that anyone else is unqualified to lead the town. If it means anything, the only person I trust to lead the town right now is you and I am dead serious about it because you are the only person keeping a cool head throughout this shitshow of a game. I should have trusted you earlier and you ended up being more right than I was but that's just the way the game went. I can't change the past but I can put more effort into seeing your side from now on.

You are talking about me confbiasing AP when AP has been confbiasing me since he entered the game. It is pretty obvious I am town here if you rethink everything I've done in this game. Day 1, I cc'd RBD when he fake-claimed miller. You know that my scumgame isn't at a level where I would do such a gambit. I don't care if people who don't know my playstyle think that I gambited but you know it is impossible coming from me. There's also not a chance I'd leave you alive over Pie who was townreading the absolute crap out of me because you are a massive threat to me as scum. I've played with you enough and read enough of your games that I know that if you truly want someone dead, it is highly unlikely that you'd be unable to drive the lynch through. There's no way, I'd let someone like that live on, least of all when they are very closely familiar with my game. Third, look at my activity level. I really shouldn't be posting in this game when I've been so busy - and yet I am. I've been trying really hard to figure this game out even amongst the chaos and the noise. Even, look at the tone of my posts for over 500 posts - walls and all. Look at my interactions with other players, with you etc. It is also really obvious that I genuinely believed in my suspicions of Mastin and Rancid wrong though they may be.

You are paranoid of me for a very similar thing that I was paranoid of you about. I found your hammer on Mastin worthy of questioning. You started today in a similar way to what I started D3 - by asking me about my end of day play and getting paranoid about it. I get it. I had the same feeling when you hammered Mastin. I should have known better that there is not a chance in hell this is your scum play. And you know as well that there is no chance I am scum here if you just look at everything that I've posted in this game.

[CarbonFiber]

I find it odd that there are basically two claimed cops.

My role PM confirms that there is more than one cop

F16, I dont think you ever responded to this when Deps and I brought t up.

What are you thinking here?

Please read my ISO. I talked about this twice. I could explain it a third time but I just don't feel like it.

[CarbonFiber]

i didn't even know it was 7v4 until Penguin said it was impossible. I still think it would be possible and part of that I'm not going to explain.

how did you not know it was 7v4

are you asking me why I don't run around keeping a tally of who is alive or isn't?

are you seriously asking me whether i expect you to know how many people are alive at any given time?!?!

Is this a question just to make fun of how little I pay attention to these things or is this relevant to my alignment in any way.

i'd say it's pretty relevant because your paranoia

doesn't make any fucking sense

and "i have no idea what the current state of the game is" is a pretty shitty reason to call yourself town

I mean because if you're going to argue me being paranoid the scum team has something up their sleeves and used yesterday to propel it is anything other than me freaking out as town that the game was over then I have no clue what world you live in. and since that should be the only conclusion you can come to then this line of questioning is just serving for you to appear arrogant and call me dumb which I don't think is very relevant to the game state.

your paranoia doesn't seem genuine because it doesn't make any fucking sense.

Look, a part of my annoyance with the game is that while I think you are town, you are not seeing the obvious with respect to Tammy. I know she is paranoid. Paranoia by definition is somewhat illogical. The point is that she is really, really obviously trying to figure the game out. I followed Too Many Heads. Her play here is

nothing

at all like her play there. Every single post she made here, she is obviously frustrated and trying to solve the game. She doesn't have any reads and that bothers her. Scum don't get bothered by not having reads. Scum don't wallow in paranoia trying to make sense of something that doesn't make sense. It would actually be pretty easy to pretend to have reads and the immense amount of frustration with this game only makes sense from town.

What do you think of the other players. Talk to me about Nacho.

[CarbonFiber]

NotScience, is it your theory that JSU and AP are scum together who tried to get Cupcake mislynched?

[CarbonFiber]

Why is Nacho scum?

[CarbonFiber]

Because I have no idea where his read flip on mastin came from

His read not only flipped but he championed the mastin lynch while not voting mastin at all

He was on that shit katsuki wagon so there's some BoP in this (same with AP and JSU)

I also don't trust him at all so of course this all should be taken with several grains of salt

Okay, I agree. This was mostly what I was concerned about as well although I wouldn't say not voting Mastin was significant.

[CarbonFiber]

The problem I had with the way you treated Pie and the he's the only one you trust to lead town, and I didn't realize it was in response to Mastin's town leader thing, is that you didn't vote Mastin with him though you were trusting Pie to lead all the way. If I would have realized that it was just you commenting on Mastin's town leader narrative, and I did remember that exists but he wrote so damn much it was hard to take some of it seriously and really focus, it probably wouldn't have stuck out as so odd to me. But what freaked me out was while at the same time going he's the only one you trust to lead town, you weren't voting for the person he was tunneling on though you were certain he was scum and then you suggested the AP lynch.

I'm not sure you can look at me and say I'm keeping a cool head with a straight face. I don't feel like I have a cool head. I felt like I was getting there at the start of day when the thing I was worried about all night long didn't happen, but ohmygods paranoia means your scum!!! That's such fucking bullshit and I don't think for one second either Broseidon or desperado can't see it for anything other than it is. They are full of shit and for EITHER of them to actually think this is anywhere near Too Many Heads is such crack pot pawow that no I'm not seeing it at all.

They are pulling this games strings. They can't even come up with a good reason for why scum me would say I thought the game was going to end or would expect that at all? I mean like seriously. They are not acting like town AT ALL.

The reason I got cold feet towards the end of the day was that I sensed movements in the game that made me feel like the actual scum (AP, Penguin) were setting us up with a Mastin townflip. I also thought it was so incredibly odd that everyone single player in the game suspected Mastin (besides AP). It just felt like something was off and I got paranoid about it. I wondered if there was a simpler explanation than the two of them being buddies: that town-Mastin had caught scum-AP and AP was townreading Mastin because Mastin was town.

Your coolheadedness I was referring to was your posts early D3 where I freaked out on you and you continued being reasonable and objective about everything even though you didn't have to be.

Yeah, Desp and BRO's suspicion of you is dumb and I don't think that your play is anything at all similar to Too Many Heads. But I don't know, I keep going back to BRO's meltdown post and I am wondering if he would use such a cheap tactic to win a scumgame. Like, let's say he is scum and wins, the rest of us at endgame are going to hate him for abusing their emotional side.

[CarbonFiber]

???????????
RG already heavily hinted at why he thinks that just now. And I know you think the same, so what is this question >.>

I wanted to see why RG suspected him to see whether it matches up with my own thought processes.

[CarbonFiber]

Tammy, what are your thoughts on the way Penguin immediately went after MastinSSK after she replaced in? Did you help her catch up or clue her into anything in particular and did her understanding of the game so far feel reasonable based on how much she caught up/how much you helped bring her up to date in the neighborhood?

[CarbonFiber]

Tammy, what are your thoughts on the way Penguin immediately went after MastinSSK after she replaced in? Did you help her catch up or clue her into anything in particular and did her understanding of the game so far feel reasonable based on how much she caught up/how much you helped bring her up to date in the neighborhood?

IDK

As far as how the neighborhood went at the beginning. I did give her a summer of what had happened so far. I mentioned the day one stuff between mastin and rancid and how especially verbose mastin had been. Told her about the Orci self-governing thing, told her about the janitoring thing. I said that mastin had been even more verbose but that I didn't have an idea to his alignment but told her that reading nacho and mastin's posts would probably be helpful in gaining a picture of the day, and then I asked her to read BRO because I had been scum reading them but then didn't know after the meltdown.

She said she'd try to read Bro but reminded me about how badly she read him in Wicked.

We had small talk, then she read my ISO and said I'm town unless I just learned how to really fake it after 541. She said she read out of my iso for context on some things then she got a leaning scum read on Mastin due to drowning things out in words but wanted to read better. And then like 7 hours later she came back and said that she thought for sure it was Mastin!scum based on tone. Later that night she said she'd work on her mastin case. She sounded pretty frustrated with herself when he came back town though.

I could actually see Penguin being town based on Clyton's fake watcher claim. If he was confident you were town, he'd want to try to give you another day by implying that he would be watching you.

I am completely undecided on what to do about her strong pushes. She seemed incredibly confident in Mastin-scum and me-scum both of which she is wrong about but it fits her town meta pretty closely. But, I know for a fact that we talked about how she pushes lynches with confidence as town and she said that my wall in Wicked was informative to her about the way she plays and that she's going to try to switch up her scum play because she felt so transparent when I analyzed her in Wicked. I was scum there but I was posting a lot of genuine tells and we both agreed that it was fairly accurate. IDK, if I hadn't posted that wall and she played like this, I'd be pretty confident she was town. Do you see any similarities between Penguin here and her play as your partner in Too Many Heads?

[CarbonFiber]

Okay, NotScience, here's what I think will help: you are most likely town and I need to solidify that read. Post your walls of analysis. Post all that massive amount of stuff that Brian said you had on the game.

Pedit: No, right now, it is 7-4. If we mislynch and scum kill a player tonight, we'll be at LYLO with 5-4.

[CarbonFiber]

you are most likely town

Because?

And no its not MyLo Tammy.....

The carefree way he is posting and interacting with people since he returned. It is hard for NotScience to emulate that in his scumgame. I still want to see his mountain of analysis before nailing down a read there though.

[CarbonFiber]

NACHO, JUST

BE

TOWN! YOU CAN DO IT. PLEASE BE TOWN.

[CarbonFiber]

NACHO, JUST

BE

TOWN! YOU CAN DO IT. PLEASE BE TOWN.

I am town.
You're in the doghouse because you're not seeing it and that isn't my fault.

Where's the Nacho that is lynching scum left and right? I am only seeing excuses about how it is not your fault but no actual performance. Where's the fuel and the fire and the charged up passion and desire to wreck the scum into a thousand tiny pieces?

[CarbonFiber]

Where's the Nacho that is lynching scum left and right? I am only seeing excuses about how it is not your fault but no actual performance. Where's the fuel and the fire and the charged up passion and desire to wreck the scum into a thousand tiny pieces?

Wsa his push on Panda and mastin something other than that?

I feel like you keep talking out of both sides of your mouth saying that Nacho's sudden passion on mastin made no sense and that he simultaneously saying that he HAS NO PASSION.

Or aybe thats RG arguing one of those, I get mixed up.

I outlined this D3 when I went back and forth with Nacho. I was accusing him of bringing up the passion only when people started wondering about him and sitting back whenever it wasn't necessary. I also said his push on Mastin came at an opportunistic time - at a point when a Mastin lynch was very likely and just needed a little push in that direction to ensure that he got lynched.

[CarbonFiber]

i think if scum there was no need for me to be on that wagon

What would you have done then? Sit back and let the town lynch Mastin? That'd be as good as a scumclaim. Town-you would save Mastin and derail his wagon if you had a townread on him. Scum-you would have to do the same thing. Only way out is to scumread him and push him. Who wouldn't scumread you if you sat back and did nothing? That's not very Nacho-like and isn't something you can afford to do as scum. Town or scum, you have to influence the lynch in some way.

[CarbonFiber]

in fact, as i pointed out to mastin together, the wagon is the opposite of opportunistic because of how timing with that push happened
i put my towncred in the neighborhood (there was a lot) in the grinder by hard defending mastin
then, immediately after towncred is in the grinder, i HARD pushed mastin (not nudged him to death like you seem to be implying) and grinded towncred everywhere else.

all for one mislynch?

you remember wicked, where we preserved two people tunneling each other until as late as possible and let ampersand completely take the shit for it AND was able to push an additional mislynch possibility on notscience who went weird on his strong townread? why wouldn't i just do that here and let mastin die with an unbelievably strong townread on me?

Not all for one mislynch. I think you knew that if you hard-pushed a player, people would be more inclined to townread you especially those that know your playstyle - like me for instance, or Tammy, or Ffery, or Pie/GIF.

How would you preserve Mastin? Would you have townread him? If you did, then you'd have to derail his lynch, right? A weak "I am reading Mastin as town" isn't going to go anywhere. You'd have to forcefully influence the outcome of the day if you don't want people to catch onto you - and that means derailing the lynch so that Mastin lives another day.

[CarbonFiber]

i think if scum there was no need for me to be on that wagon

What would you have done then? Sit back and let the town lynch Mastin? That'd be as good as a scumclaim. Town-you would save Mastin and derail his wagon if you had a townread on him. Scum-you would have to do the same thing. Only way out is to scumread him and push him. Who wouldn't scumread you if you sat back and did nothing? That's not very Nacho-like and isn't something you can afford to do as scum. Town or scum, you have to influence the lynch in some way.

Remember when I defended him earlier and everyone still wanted to lynch the shit out of him anyways?
I remember that.

Yes, same with Rancid. You defended him ergo the lynch didn't happen. Sure, some others might want it but a true Nacho defense ensures that the lynch doesn't happen and you know it. Mastin would expect nothing less and if your defense was insufficient, he would still scumread you.

[CarbonFiber]

How would you preserve Mastin? Would you have townread him? If you did, then you'd have to derail his lynch, right? A weak "I am reading Mastin as town" isn't going to go anywhere. You'd have to forcefully influence the outcome of the day if you don't want people to catch onto you - and that means derailing the lynch so that Mastin lives another day.

I would protect the hell out of mastin because mastin was god tier townreading me.
If she died, neighborhood gets slaps on the wrists galore, I gain cred with the neighborhood (and especially you) because you tunneled on a strong townread of mine and never let up.
If she lived... I have mastin very very very firmly in my pocket, neighborhood keeps pushing her and giving me an honest townread to protect, meaning I stay engaged, I can use that to keep you preoccupied and keep you from the position of having to reanalyze reads, push mislynches elsewhere.

Okay, you are right that the Mastin lynch got us to re-evaluate our reads and that didn't look favorable to you. And if you pushed a different mislynch, we'd still be tunneling Mastin today.

But that also means that if you don't take the opportunity to eliminate Mastin, she'd be bulletproof and a constant threat. You said before that Mastin was a threat to you. In Mentor-Mentee, you pointed out how she takes a day or two to nail down a good read on you.

[CarbonFiber]

No, but I think he lied about receiving a PM that confirmed it.

He is dead and flipped town. Why are you assuming he is lying?

[CarbonFiber]

No, but I think he lied about receiving a PM that confirmed it.

He is dead and flipped town. Why are you assuming he is lying?

That doesn't really answer my question.

[CarbonFiber]

if you don't take the opportunity to eliminate Mastin, she'd be bulletproof and a constant threat. You said before that Mastin was a threat to you. In Mentor-Mentee, you pointed out how she takes a day or two to nail down a good read on you.

She nailed down the good read on me.
The good read was "town, town, town, town, town, town, town".

It was obvious that it wasn't permanent considering she went back on it to "you lying, misrepping scumbag."

What if Mastin was accusing your scumbuddies of being scum?

[CarbonFiber]

And you don't think Mastin would recognize that an attack from town-Nacho is town-motivated?

[CarbonFiber]

Okay. But why so much inactivity D2? Why only tunnel Mastin? Why no focus on anyone else? You didn't even give that readslist I asked about.

[CarbonFiber]

Looking back, there were a few things that felt really town from Mastin on hindsight. You know Mastin better than I do - or anyone else. Why didn't you pick up on any of those things?

[CarbonFiber]

How were you so sure that Katsuki was the one that was fake-claiming?

[CarbonFiber]

What made you think that Katsuki had the ability to end the game?

[CarbonFiber]

Versus BRO?

No. Consideration that there was a GF in the game.

[CarbonFiber]

Looking back, there were a few things that felt really town from Mastin on hindsight. You know Mastin better than I do - or anyone else. Why didn't you pick up on any of those things?

There were things that felt really town from Mastin.
There were also things I didn't think could possibly come from Mastin as town, and something like that overrides really town parts unless those really town parts couldn't come from mastin-scum, which wasn't the case.

But any other game I've seen you, you give people that you know a really long rope when you are town and tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. I don't think you gave Mastin a chance (which I guess I didn't either), but it doesn't fit with the Nacho meta I'm aware of.

[CarbonFiber]

Are you going to do that reads list?

I don't want to write you off as town which is really tempting but I'll only end up being wrong if I do that. I want to

actually

believe that you are town and I am not there yet.

[CarbonFiber]

Never mind. I thought he was accusing me of distracting from the mastin scum lynch, which would have sounded really town in hindsight especially with him trying to nail down my mastin read, but I misread.

I'll just have to keep hoping that qt slip thing was a town tell.

What are your thoughts on my post saying that the neighborhood first started out as a QT and moved to the private thread and the assumption that scum similarly started out in a QT and moved to a private thread around the same time? If PV was scum, he'd have seen both.

[CarbonFiber]

Counterpoint

Too many heads - that merciless wagon on me

Charmed - mollie

But didn't he unvote you and reconsider when you said you cried?

I didn't really read Charmed (I skimmed once) so I don't know.

[CarbonFiber]

But any other game I've seen you, you give people that you know a really long rope when you are town and tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. I don't think you gave Mastin a chance (which I guess I didn't either), but it doesn't fit with the Nacho meta I'm aware of.

I give people long ropes when I have doubts on them, when I don't know them well enough to pull a hard meta read.
I don't give people long ropes when I'm >90% sure they're scum.

How did you end up misreading town-Mastin that badly? Is there a take-away you got from it? From what I know of your play, you are occasionally fooled by players you know but almost never mislynch them when you are both town which is part of the reason everyone loves you.

[CarbonFiber]

Tammy, how convinced are you that Nacho is town?

[CarbonFiber]

Counterpoint

Too many heads - that merciless wagon on me

Charmed - mollie

But didn't he unvote you and reconsider when you said you cried?

I didn't really read Charmed (I skimmed once) so I don't know.

He gave me room, but I doubt that would have lasted long. In fact, as long as he's telling the truth he was preparing to call me on my shit when he got hammered. And I don't know why he'd lie since getting outplayed isn't something that makes him want to cry and hold his blankie.

He told me I was wrong on mollie scum to give her some room but when she was still obvscum a few pages later, he didn't make me have to argue with him.

Yeah, he said in the dead thread that he was certain you were scum too and I definitely don't think he lied about it. I was referring more to the fact that even when convinced you were town, he gave you some space. I guess I'd have expected town-him to step back and let Mastin do his thing for a while and work with Mastin. Then if the towniness doesn't show, drive home the lynch. It just didn't match with Nacho's usual patterns and the way he pushes lynches as town. What does his push on you in Too Many Heads, his push on Wisdom in Z-mafia, his push on Syryana in Stacking the Deck, his push on Bulbazak in BB:HoH, and his push on TheFonz/Implosion in Swagtown all have in common? I didn't see that common factor here especially the commonalities amongst the first three games above.

IDK, the whole thing with Mastin just gave me weird vibes when looking at it from hindsight that I am trying hard to see from a town rationale. And the reaction around Katsuki as well.

[CarbonFiber]

I liked this post.

I sort of liked the emotions in it. I disliked that the passion only showed infrequently.

[CarbonFiber]

Okay, I am shutting off my comp because I need to study and quit being addicted to this game. I'll check back in late night for a bit.

Nacho, please be just

be

town. I see you addressing all of my concerns and I see what you say makes sense. I am still not at a point where I am absolutely convinced you are town. And I rarely suspected town-you in recent games.

[CarbonFiber]

This game feels completely fucked. I have no idea what to do that's actually going to be productive

NotScience, your lists are pretty but you can come up with better reasons for town/scumreading our slot than FourTrouble's paranoia and my end of D3 play that was already explained at the beginning of D4.

Also, can you explain your townread on Penguin in-depth? You were in the Wicked game. What are your thoughts regarding my explanation of how Penguin would want to switch her meta?

[CarbonFiber]

Nacho showing up earlier and not actually

doing

anything feels scummy. He responded to suspicion, interacted with a few people but made no attempt to sort players or move the game forward.

[CarbonFiber]

BRO never did VCA as scum.

[CarbonFiber]

So, I was thinking about this game and if I put aside my reads for a while, I could speculate on how scum wanted the game to go down. I think quite a few people (NotScience/Tammy speculated the first possibility). Especially going to get out my conviction that JSU is town and see if they work as scum.

1) JSU-AP scumteam

: Let's say for a second that BRO's end of D1 post was genuine (I won't use the M-word as per Penguin's request) except that he genuinely felt that way as scum because he cares about being lynched as scum. AP is his scumpartner as well as two other random people (let's say PV and Magenta). When Cupcake claims that AP didn't visit who he did, JSU decides that they want to save their partner AP and decide to contradict Cupcake's claim. Poor cupcake gets lynched sprinkles, cream, and all. So, the obvious problem here is that JSU/AP both tied themselves together and handed the town two scum lynches in order to get one town lynch which is massively and ridiculously sub-optimal. But is it? No one is really going after JSU/AP as a team hard enough and despite lynching Cupcake decided that now that his flip is known, he was probably blocked or lied so it fits in as a scum plan from them. But how would they have expected the town to believe it? BRO is a strategic scum player and he wouldn't risk two scum going down to nail one mislynch.

What would their day scum strategy be? Desp tries his best to piss off Tammy while buddying the fuck out of me in the neighborhood. AP tries his best to buddy Tammy while attacking me in an obviously scum way. That way, Tammy and I would disagree on both reads. She'd say BRO-Desp are scum for the way they attacked her but I wouldn't believe it because they seemed so nice and town to me. I'd say that AP was scum for his interactions with me but she'd call him "collaborative" and criticize my push as tunneling and we'd get nowhere and talk around in circles about why the other is not seeing AP or BRO-Desp as scum. BRO-Desp would know that as long as I townread them, they are unlikely to be lynched even if they piss someone off because I'd go to massive lengths to defend my townreads. Similarly, AP knows he's unlikely to get lynched if Tammy townreads him even if he pisses me off. Both slots play off of each other to increase discord amongst the town, sow apathy and fuel paranoia and conflict.

2) Fox/Penguin/Magenta/???? (Red Gyrados?)

- Let's say Nacho is right and town and he and AP are both town and the scumteam looks something of that sort. As the Mastin lynch drew closer, Fox and RG added their votes, Brian's read on Mastin was fairly ambiguous although he does eventually come around to voting him citing no other choice. Magenta did unvote after Mastin's walls so no idea what to make of that. Penguin went full steam against Mastin, maybe trying to get towncred for leading a lynch while Clyton spent a ton of time setting up the neighborhood for Mastin's townflip. Once Penguin achieves her objective, she then turns on me because I suspect her and with the same conviction tunnels me. HOWEVER, when the Katsuki thing comes up, she conveniently puts aside her read on me for another day like she's doing me a favor and votes Katsuki to ensure his lynch while planning to come back to me. All of this time, barely doing anything to interact with me or sort me out which I know she'd be pissed off if she was on the receiving end of someone pushing like that (Malakittens in Tales of Vesperia). I think I remember she being annoyed that Malakittens wasn't coming out to talk to her so no idea why I'm getting the same treatment here with the bulk of her suspicions seemingly done behind closed doors with Tammy.

3) JSU by themselves

- Let's say Tammy is right and JSU is scum by themselves all alone as the lone scum with no scumbuddies (I am kidding Tammy, I really need a break ). What's their strategy coming into the game? (Let's assume 3 other random people as scumbuddies just to be safe). Let's push the Mastin lynch as hard as we can. During that time, call out Titan/Stalin for "setting up" the neighborhood based on Mastin's townflip but be cagey about it so people aren't distracted from the lynch. Once that happens, we are one step closer to a win while other people are set up as setting us up so we have convenient scapegoats. Attack Titan, be a complete asshole and hope to hell that town buys that we are town. What's the strategy though? Tammy's unlynchable so maybe a similar strategy to what Prohawk and Orc pursued in Tales of Vesperia. Again, hope to hell that CF defends them enough to derail their lynch.

4) RG/Magenta/JSU/PV

- Let's say AP is town and right (besides his scumread of me) and that the scum are among the four people listed. Cupcake gets an incorrect result on AP (how?) and JSU decide to corroborate that result and buddy AP. RG fakes being blocked (wtf?) and PV is a 1X janitor vig for the scumteam. I am tired and rambling, AP finish this please.

[CarbonFiber]

Okay so, I'm trying to make sense of the claims.

What we know for sure:

1) MastinSSK

- Tree stump bulletproof

2) Rancid

- Gladiator

3) Mac

- Role stooping bodyguard

4) LordBusiness

- Roleblocker who can come back to life

5) Yggdra Union

- JOAT - powers unknown

6) Cupcake

- Delayer

---

7) Magenta

- Self-governing duel master

8) PeregrineV

- Janitoring VIG

9) Titan

- Anti-roleblocker

10) CarbonFiber

- Miller neighborizer

What's left as claimed:

11) AngryPidgeon

- Cop who submits three names for scum to choose from

(with a 1X JK?)

12) JSU

- Even night tracker with cop aspects

13) Stalin

- Amnesiac follower

14) Penguin - Inventor?
15) Nacho - Commuter?
16) Brian/Notty - claimed to be blocked/unclaimed role
17) The Fox and The Hound - Didn't claim

Night two: Brian and bello ffery claim to be blocked.

Now here's part of my problem. Does anyone think there's just a little too many investigative roles claimed? Also Brian says his role failed, which would suggest that it's also investigative of some sort, but one would think he'd be a bit wary of the investigative claims if he was, but I'm not too sure that he's been around during claim fest so I'd have to check. Also we apparently two roles who are unable to die, well apparently mastin couldn't die who knows what limitations are on nacho.

Let's say all the investigative roles are town, then I'd expect scum to have some pretty strong powers. No one has come forward to be a roleblocker, so I refuse to believe there's another town one.

Hmmm I don't think I've come to any conclusions, but something doesn't feel right. I mean I hope that cupcake is scum, I really do, or this town is screwed. Penguin keeps insisting he has to be, but it's not something I feel great about. Maybe if I could trust more people besides bellifery I'd be more confident in this and feel calmer but I don't. And so help me if the one person I trust turns out to be scum I just don't know what I'll do.

My role confirms that there are multiple cops so we definitely know that are multiple investigative roles. I am leaning more towards scum having the ability to mess with the roles that we do have. Multiple roleblockers is a possibility. If Katsuki, RG, and Stalin all had their roles fail, I dunno, crazy idea, maybe AP can roleblock three people each night?

Actually, roles could have restrictions: if certain people of certain ages/genders are untargetable by others, that would explain why so many roles failed. Maybe they weren't all roleblocked at all.

[CarbonFiber]

Woah... Tammy, this is EXACTLY EXACTLY EXACTLY something I've been thinking and worried about. I haven't even mentioned it to Ceph yet because I thought it was too out there, but I feel so irrationally happy right now.

Are you fucking kidding me? I responded to that post ages ago.

[CarbonFiber]

And part of my problem is that you're not actually looking at everything.

This is just wrong. The only person who has been looking at everything is me. It is also such a generic accusation and I am not even sure what it is reference to.

You're discounting some things because you have a *strong read* which is fine but coming up with new ways that AP is scum without for one second considering the possibility that JSU is scum is a whole metric fuckton of confirmation bias.

I don't get this way of looking at things at all. AP was the one who was coming up with new ways to scumread me and I've pointed this out several times.

I, for one, don't see how you can be so sure.

I explained it in my huge wall on BRO-Desp. I explained that their posting has been really town in the neighborhood. I can't see how that was missed. It is one thing to not be convinced but I don't get why you think

I'm

scum for townreading them other than my wall on Penguin in Wicked eliciting a similar reaction from her. It did because it was genuine. It means nothing for my affiliation if I can post genuine meta as scum.

I have postulated that you are so sure because you guys are partnered because it's really the only reason why you've been going on about AP but not really pushing him and then using the Mastin scum read AP so he's scum scum scum!

I think Nacho is scum so I am scum with Nacho. I think AP is scum so I am scum with AP. Either way, I am scum. I am apparently finding new ways that AP is scum but not actually pushing him.

When Mastin isn't all that great at reading AP; I mean in Anything Goes he was 100% certain AP was scum when he was town telling like crazy. The day two suggestion that it should be AP instead of Mastin after you declared that Pieguy was the only person you trusted to lead the town and Pieguy was tunneling on Mastin. Why did you all of a sudden decide to suggest the day should go away from where the leader was saying to go? In some instances you look like you're trying to tie your partner AP to people in a weird manner.

I explained this already. My "town leader" thing about Pie was referring to Mastin's posts about him being a town leader and me saying that I trust Pie more than Mastin.

Like, are you actually kidding me with the "

Woah... Tammy, this is EXACTLY EXACTLY EXACTLY something I've been thinking and worried about. I haven't even mentioned it to Ceph yet because I thought it was too out there, but I feel so irrationally happy right now.

" This is just... bad.

[CarbonFiber]

I was kidding with AP can roleblock three people comment but where did I say JSU is just scum without you?

[CarbonFiber]

I don't get this way of looking at things at all. AP was the one who was coming up with new ways to scumread me and I've pointed this out several times.

Please. please. PLEASE Do not pretend like you didn't move the goalposts on your scumread on me, that is just shameful regardless of your alignment.

I wont even deny that I have been doing the same. I expressed concern that I MIGHT BE DOING EXACTLY THIS AND AM BIASED not like 2 pages ago. I'm not the one SO TUNNELY that I am speculating that you must be a triple roleblocking Godfather. Like literally any possible thing you can think of that the scumteam might have is now part of my role so long as it justifies your worldview! Its actually absurd. You wanna know the truth? Im scumreading you because YOLOGUTLOL. You come off scummy to me. Your attitude feels way to focused/controlled and that makes the outbreak at Tammy look orchestrated. Your refusal to vote mastin

and then agreeing with RG and/oi simply outright stating that Nacho is scummy for doing this

is just WOW. I see nothing but cognitive dissonance when I read your posts and blatant interpretation of NEW EVENTS IN THE THREAD with a preset lens to interpret them to fit your worldview.

Okay, first off, I just said I was kidding about the triple roleblocking GF. I still suspect a GF though. My scumread on you is mostly based on how you approached your scumread of me + inability to see the big picture in my posting. It is really obvious that I am putting an intense amount of effort into solving the game and I think you are looking at things that a player of your caliber should understand aren't alignment indicative. I wouldn't mind so much if a less skilled player suspected me for stuff like that (like Mac's "

lol, you have no case, ergo you are scum

") but from someone like you, accusations of "buddying," not telling you that I am a miller when you said you would investigate me, calling you and Mastin a scumteam, pushing Mastin while suspecting you, initially ignoring posts should be recognized as not indicative of alignment. Whether or not any of those things are the optimal play as town is debatable but you are well aware that it is not actually indicative of scum. Certainly not more than counterclaiming miller D1 to push a lynch on a notoriously difficult to lynch player, massive activity level and trying to figure out the game, questioning people, trying to make sense of the game and being incredibly emotionally invested in it all of which make my posts transparent as all hell. I've seen the level at which you scumhunt in other games and I am just not seeing it here.

Also, I

disagreed

with RG that Nacho was scummy for not voting while agreeing with his other points. See bolded:

Because I have no idea where his read flip on mastin came from

His read not only flipped but he championed the mastin lynch while not voting mastin at all

He was on that shit katsuki wagon so there's some BoP in this (same with AP and JSU)

I also don't trust him at all so of course this all should be taken with several grains of salt

Okay, I agree. This was mostly what I was concerned about as well

although I wouldn't say not voting Mastin was significant.

Have I been doing this? I like to think not, but sure Im not going to claim to be flawless. I think you are scum. Im simply not hiding behind someone else's read and calling it infallible to hand-wave away a cop level clear on me. This is made especially egregious by your assertion that there are multiple cops in the game and I am one of the 2 claimed cops >.> <.< >.> <.<.

But no, you are right. Just keep doing your thing. Maybe later tonight I'll read some of the later RBD posts. I seem to recall them expressing similar sentiments to how I feel.

I'm trying to think of some way we can meet on the same ground and

duel to the death

,

play a children's card game....to the death

actually look at things on the same page without whatever it is that ....I cant even think of a word to explain myself. But you get my point. I guess we just have personality differences? Or something? I do intend to continue reading D1 until Im sort of understanding the dynamic that is going on between us.

--

Lets actually do some activity together so we dont just keep saying the same shit. Foxhound and Magenta seem to both be ??? for us (although I have Fox more as null and Magenta more as scum). Lets both make talking points for these players with an open mind and compare them and see if we feel similarly?

I intend to re-read the game as well tonight and I'll try to make sense of Foxhound and Magenta.

[CarbonFiber]

Are you getting after me here. If so beep beep.

I am not "getting after you." You basically said I am not scumhunting and not looking at things from a town POV when I obviously am. And then DV posts saying that somehow it all makes sense and agrees with it opportunistically.

You keep speculating about various scumteams with me in them etc but you are just wrong because

I'm

not scum. You are wrong about all of the stuff you posted about me.

[CarbonFiber]

I don't think I said that but boop boop

You said I'm not looking at everything, how I can be so sure about JSU, having conf-bias etc. My issue isn't with you but with DV agreeing with it.

[CarbonFiber]

Gah, okay. I guess I could see where you suspect me but you are still wrong and that's frustrating. I found DV's hop to be opportunistic and just overall scummy and that's why I refuted all the points to show why I disagreed with him.

[CarbonFiber]

I'm going to head out. I want to hear comments about DV's recent post.

[CarbonFiber]

I don't get what the issue with DV's post is. How is agreeing with someone about a concern opportunistic?

I was gonna say the same thing.
#irony

Sure you would.

[CarbonFiber]

I don't get what the issue with DV's post is. How is agreeing with someone about a concern opportunistic? I feel like a broken record but I feel like people *should* be reanalyzing/losing their shit, that is what you're supposed to do when you mislynch three times in a row is it not?

Because what he is agreeing with didn't make any sense.

I do think people should be re-analyzing and I don't find DV scummy for re-analyzing.

What DV quoted and agreed with was responded to and refuted. Most of DV's and your posting included agreeing with everything Tammy said in a really manipulative way including the posts that where there is nothing to agree with. Everytime DV sees a Tammy post, he goes "yeah, that's right!" It is like he came into the thread with an agenda as opposed to critically analyzing the players.

[CarbonFiber]

I don't get what the issue with DV's post is. How is agreeing with someone about a concern opportunistic? I feel like a broken record but I feel like people *should* be reanalyzing/losing their shit, that is what you're supposed to do when you mislynch three times in a row is it not?

Because what he is agreeing with didn't make any sense.

That's right! Tammy's a loon! Don't listen to her, bad bad.

I just finished writing all my finals and am super excited to have some free time and I'll pour time into playing mafia.

I am in an awesome mood right now!

You are awesome! Your posts make me smile! Don't break my heart!

[CarbonFiber]

YAY! I want to do the same thing!

[CarbonFiber]

I don't want to care about winning so much as having a good time.

AP is a fantastic scum player. I don't even care about beating him right now. I just plan to congratulate him at endgame for playing so well. Congrats AP!

[CarbonFiber]

Also, I didn't mean that you didn't make sense - you not making sense has to mean that your cat succeeded in killing you and is typing from your keyboard! I meant that DV agreeing with that post felt off because it doesn't make sense from DV's point of view to agree with that.

[CarbonFiber]

Nacho is another player I don't mind losing to by the way. He is awesome^100.

I'll happily lose this game to Nacho and congratulate him in the end! Nacho, the master manipulator who is so fun to play with, who taught me so much about mafia!

I am not even going to be butthurt about losing to Nacho.

[CarbonFiber]

I don't want to make it toxic. I know I have and if I continue along the same vein, I'll make this game incredibly unfun for everyone here including you and I don't want that. I love playing with you and with everyone else in the game and that's why I want to not care so much about it. I'd rather lose and maintain great relations with everyone than win and alienate a whole bunch of people.

[CarbonFiber]

Falcon though as I'm taking a tiny break. What is up with your jumping all over the place with regards to me? In the beginning you *hoped* I was town, then you said after reading my ISO I was definitely town, then day three I was part of scum team that was going to mislynch you and in the midst of that you paralleled my scum game to nacho's (LOL?) was that really what you meant because FMPOV I have one of the worst scum games onsite, to you saying you'd be able to catch me as scum if you were town within 25 posts, to getting paranoid of me trolling at the lynch yesterday, to then saying that my paranoia today is town.

I mean, I get waffling, cuz I mean hello Princess Waffles here, but there's a level of mental whiplash there that is part not quite making sense/I can't figure out.

(I just want mafia to be more fun, I think people have been making it too serious/toxic/hostile environment lately across the board. I play my part, and I just want to have fun and not have it affect *me* as much as it does.)

Here's my thought process tracked down with reasons attached.

1) Beginning

: I skimmed the game somewhat - my fault. It was obvious from reading your posts up until the time I entered that you were town. For whatever reason in the midst of my skimming, I missed some of the reasons why you were obviously town. There was also one specific thing I was looking for: I thought you'd claim that you could read me when FT's post was being discussed. Sort of like how ffery said she was going to wait for me to post. You later clarified that you were waiting for me to initiate interaction with you so it is a moot point. But I was actually hoping at that point that

you

would invite me to the ball.

2) First read-through of ISO

: And then you do something you never did before. You threw an IGMEOU emoticon my way! If I were scum, I'd be quaking in my boots, no better way to make me sweat. Even as town, the effect was fascinating. And so I ask you why. Why, oh why did you look at me that way? And then you say I ought to read you easily, why hadn't I taken you up in my arms and swept you away? And then I look into your ISO and see what I wanted to talk to you about - I pick up those little things that you are so unlikely to do as scum. I see your tone, I see the way you talk, the way you walk, the way you move. Not a chance you are scum, what the hell was I thinking? And so I backtrack. But the great knight Sir Arthur charges after me! Look at that backtrack, it is scum, scum, scummy! And then I realize the way you pushed on me would be incredibly unlikely from a scum-Tammy and I back the heck off and see you for the obvtown that you are. And this townread continued for upto night 2.

3) Deep in the forest, Desperado and I sit together

(Heavily paraphrased conversation):
Desperado: Did you see that Mastin post to Ffery? He's town! New theory: Mastin is town, Titan/Stalin are scum. They are setting us up for a Mastin townflip.
F-16: Come off it. No way Tammy is scum. Sure, Stalin maybe but not Tammy.
Desperado: Tammy's whole thing about a cabal forming to lynch Ffery is ridiculous.
F-16 (after some conversation): Hmm, well she

is

good as scum, I wouldn't discount her fooling me I guess. Will go ask her because we are best mates in this game and it'll go awesome and she'll reassure me that nothing is off and I'll come back and tell you what a wacko you are!

4) In the game thread D2

:
F-16: Tammy, explain this, why would your read on me be affected by Mastin's flip? Desp brought up a few points in the neigborhood.
Tammy!: Where's that coward Desp! Bring him out here and I'll duel him to the death! Your neighborhood blows! I'm coming around with cannonballs and an army of a thousand to lay your itty-bitty neighborhood to seige!

---
Neighborhood: We're under attack! Run! Women and children inside. Men, get your armor ready. Ready the battlements. Prepare for battle! IT'S TAMMYYYY!
F-16: That went well...

<a period of calm, peace amongst the bitter battle while

Mastin gets lynched and flips town

>

5) Back to the Forest

: F-16 lies alone in a crazy mood. Wouldn't it be hilarious if Nacho and Tammy are scum together and are pulling this stuff on me. Well, not Tammy but Nacho is definitely a possibility.

F-16: Hey Nacho, why didn't you answer my questions I asked you about your read on Orc and why you pushed him D1 only to never push again?
F-16: Nacho, Nacho, Nacho, why are you avoiding me?
F-16: You've gotta be scum, that's why? Who's scum with you Nacho? Is it AP? Is it Penguin? Heck is it Tammy? That can't be true.
F-16: Are you planning to blow your cover on me tomorrow to get me mislynched? Try it I dare you!
F-16: Come on, Nacho, try it, try it, try it. You know there is not fucking chance I am scum here. Scumclaim to me by pushing me at daystart! Even tell Tammy to attack me if she's scum with you! Is this the day you are both going to blow your cover and mislynch me? I know you'll probably kill Yggdra to take away one of my best allies.

6) Daystart

: PieInFreezer is dead!

F-16: (A little panicky that my worst fears came true but not genuinely believing it beyond some crazy, irrational part of my head, all this while morally sunk with Mastin's and Rancid's blood on his hands): Tammy, explain your hammer.

Tammy: Vote CF

(and you know the rest)

After that, I head off to class, bike back home, breathe some air and realize that I was being silly sitting in a dark lab in real life, sitting in a metaphorical room with paranoid Desp in the game, and venting about things that had nothing with you and little to do with the game.

As for your scum game, I think you are competent as scum, it is just that when you are town, your alignment is exceedingly obvious that someone who has played enough games with you would probably notice the lack of blatant towniness. I've played with you enough to know what your towngame looks like although whether or not I'll be able to catch you as scum is a mystery that remains to be seen.

7) End of D3: Cupcakes have been eaten

:
I wasn't seriously considering you being scum when you made that post about me being scum hammering and I didn't think you were either (unless you really were in which case you know where to turn in your can-read-F-16 card. From the point, I read your responses to me early D3, I had you as strong enough town that no one was going to convince me otherwise.

8) Today

, JSU came out attacking you and I told them to drop it since it was so obviously a distraction.

---

As far as my play, I was wrong about Mastin and Rancid and completely off-base but I felt like I've been really obviously town as well. I just disagree with a lot of your characterizations of my play. You say that I'm part of the undercurrents to lynch Ffery and have been asking "gotcha" questions to her. I don't see how and I was genuinely trying to understand her thought process all through the game. You said that I wasn't trying to figure out what happened with the game when Cupcake claimed that role. I was. Probably more than anyone else. I wondered about the number of investigative roles in the game. I considered why in the world scum-Kats would want to claim a guilty while Nacho quickly shut down that discussion. I was considering everything and mulling things over and you saying that you were the only one who did this and not me just isn't true. If you truly read my posts D3, you'd realize I brought this up plenty of times. I asked why would Cupcake-scum have any reason to fake-claim but was shut down by AP and Nacho. Then you came into D4 implying that I never did anything about it and that's just not true. At some point though, I'd had enough of the noise and thought that Cupcake's flip would help us all reset. I offered to hammer but waffled hard on it and DV did it instead. I still stand by the fact that the day ending when it did was good considering a Cupcake lynch was pretty much set in stone and we weren't going to change that.

Next day begins and you discounted how much I worried about Cupcake or how I was considering the possibility of too many investigative roles. I was more worried than you were! And why would I as scum do such a ridiculous thing as asking someone else to hammer while I stay off for moral reasons? It would be a lot less convoluted if I had just hammered. It was me as town not wanting to contribute to a crap lynch and my desire to have the day end quickly if the lynch was a foregone conclusion. I didn't want to hammer someone I thought was town. I was frustrated at the way the day was going. I was frustrated that no one was considering alternative possibilities (except you), and I was frustrated that Nacho was acting like everything was obvious that Cupcake was so obviously scum that he didn't need to list any of his other suspects as well.

To say that I wasn't considering everything and am confbiasing is a bit unfair. I very obviously was. I am not even sure if you are reading any of my latest posts. I'm genuinely concerned about DV's posts. They feel scummy. I didn't play this game optimally but I put in more time and effort into it than any other recent game and I can't even convince you that I am obviously town let alone random players that don't know me and it is probably my fault and the frustration was building up for a while. I just don't

care

this much as scum. Wicked was probably one of my better scumgames and how many times did you prod us? And that was a hydra with Nacho in it. I wondered if we were going to get replaced after three prods. I see you as being obviously town here but so am I and I think my contribution to the game and genuineness in my posting is just as obvious. I spent so much time and effort trying to sort Nacho and digging at every possible thing to see if I could get a definitive read. I spent a considerable amount of time pushing AP. During this time, you were trying to see if I fit in on a scumteam with Nacho and AP which just didn't make any sense because I am not scum in the first place.

[CarbonFiber]

Um, you actually have been making a big show of how you suspect AP without ever trying to get him lynched, so I'm not really understanding the sarcasm here!

How am I not trying to get AP lynched exactly? Would you rather I ignore everything and everyone else in the game and scream from the rooftops that AP is scum? I can't force people to vote him if they don't want to.

Like, are you actually kidding me with the "Woah... Tammy, this is EXACTLY EXACTLY EXACTLY something I've been thinking and worried about. I haven't even mentioned it to Ceph yet because I thought it was too out there, but I feel so irrationally happy right now." This is just... bad.

Yes I'm not allowed to even consider that you might be scum. Got it!

That's not what I was saying though. The way you agreed with it smacks of scum townreading a townie. Most of your posts towards Tammy were of the "woah, I love this post" type variety, even for the more null posts and I don't find your responses genuine. The post you quoted especially doesn't resonate. You never re-evaluate your read there especially for someone preaching a lot of re-evaluating reads.

Foxhound and Magenta seem to both be ??? for us (although I have Fox more as null and Magenta more as scum).

Ok I'm sick of this. You've happened to get me at a time when I don't care about the role stuff making you probably town and I'm not trying to pretend to understand why people wouldn't be townreading me (lucky you), so... WHY ARE WE NULL? (I've convinced myself the caps is actually because I don't want you to miss the question and not for any other reason). Both you and CF were previously townreading me/us for reasons I thought were pretty good! Now, even though I'm pretty sure I've been more transparent and more town than I've even been in my last ~10 town games (I mean, getting people to insult me as scum, seriously?), we get a nice, boring, inoffensive null. Problem for you two though is that I don't find it very inoffensive! If it was that we were pretty town but other people were just more town, then I'd think that was a bit odd, but I'd probably accept it (I actually feel the same way about a lot of people this game!), but I'm pretty sure scum view us as a scrumptious and juicy mislynch, and these nulls are exactly what I'd expect to happen (and CF grasping for reasons to scumread me too, how cute!)

You are null because neither your nor Cephrir's catch up posts were awesome. I disliked them quite a bit. They picked up on ridiculously irrelevant stuff. Nothing I saw in there felt like an attempt at scumhunting. They are massively positional. The points you picked up on seemed like they serve an agenda of laying down a trajectory of reads development so that you eventually wind up scumreading players that you want to scumread and townreading players that you want to townread. For example, 6570 is massively opportunistic. Defense of Tammy, questioning of RG and JSU, some pointless line about me that I don't even understand the purpose of. You've decided who you need to agree with and who you need to disagree with and it feels like you are tailoring your posts to that end. More positional junk in 6402. 6058 was just bad. 5606 is geared towards directing the lynch and a setup for your eventual vote. You disagree with Cupcake and agree with AP, never mind the strength of their respective points. 5360 was incredibly underwhelming and the mechanical questioning was awfully fluffly.

And then DV posts saying that somehow it all makes sense and agrees with it opportunistically.

Ok so to make it clear the big thing for me was the part about you having this really weird unfailingly strong read on AP but never actually trying to get him lynched (and I think the part I quoted was pretty mainly about that?). But no apparently I think you're not scumhunting and not looking at things from a town PoV. Ok then!

Which doesn't make sense because I've been trying to do it as much as possible while not losing sight of the game as a whole.

I found DV's hop to be opportunistic and just overall scummy and that's why I refuted all the points to show why I disagreed with him.

Ok, so let's take a look at your grand 'you're not allowed to scumread me ever after this' refute.

You are talking about me confbiasing AP when AP has been confbiasing me since he entered the game. It is pretty obvious I am town here if you rethink everything I've done in this game. Day 1, I cc'd RBD when he fake-claimed miller. You know that my scumgame isn't at a level where I would do such a gambit. I don't care if people who don't know my playstyle think that I gambited but you know it is impossible coming from me. There's also not a chance I'd leave you alive over Pie who was townreading the absolute crap out of me because you are a massive threat to me as scum. I've played with you enough and read enough of your games that I know that if you truly want someone dead, it is highly unlikely that you'd be unable to drive the lynch through. There's no way, I'd let someone like that live on, least of all when they are very closely familiar with my game. Third, look at my activity level. I really shouldn't be posting in this game when I've been so busy - and yet I am. I've been trying really hard to figure this game out even amongst the chaos and the noise. Even, look at the tone of my posts for over 500 posts - walls and all. Look at my interactions with other players, with you etc. It is also really obvious that I genuinely believed in my suspicions of Mastin and Rancid wrong though they may be.

1. 'My scumread is confbiasing so you can't call that a scumtell!' Oh wait...
2. 'I'll just ignore your other posts and talk about how town I am' Ok, I don't think that's scummy, but it's not really refuting anything, is it? (I'll probably say my thoughts on this when I actually decide what I think. Believe it or not I still don't know if you're a scumread yet!)

That's not what I was saying. I was talking about mindset. I pointed out several times that AP kept continuing to bring up new reasons to suspect me since the time he entered the game and I found it scummy and even pointed it out to Tammy several times and no reaction. And out of the blue she accuses me of conf-biasing a read on AP, and it is just wtf. Your "oh, just what I was thinking" in response to that felt really ridiculous. If you had posted something like "to be fair, AP was doing it too," it would have been easy to see you thinking critically about it. But I don't see any critical thinking at all especially when it came to Tammy's posts. Was there one you disagreed with?

[CarbonFiber]

If you've been reading the game, you'd have noticed that there was really no chance of anything other than a Cupcake lynch happening. I pushed AP against Cupcake but no one was listening and I just sort of gave up because some people seemed determine to push through the Cupcake lynch and not consider that AP was scum. And if the Cupcake lynch was happening, I wanted it to happen sooner rather than later. As for voting, please don't ask me why I am voting or not voting any particular player or when I choose to vote or not vote. You are not going to get anywhere.

Day 2, I suspected Mastin with AP as a second suspect. Mastin wagon was what was happening. That was the lynch that was going to go through - the one on my top suspect so naturally I pushed that lynch harder. I wondered if Mastin was town a few times before deadline and that's why I suggested lynching AP. I guess it is not impossible for scum to keep their buddies as their second/third suspects while pushing town lynches but the entire interaction between AP and me since he joined the game makes it unlikely that we are buddies and it should be fairly obvious to anyone. In any case, what is your read on AP? Are you scumreading him?

I suspect you =/= setting you up for a lynch. You've been doing this with nearly everyone that suspects you in this game. I said I liked DV's analysis and effort into the JSU/AP/Cupcake team but I didn't like a lot of the other posts that I linked above.

Also, if you suspect a me/AP team, quit being completely ridiculous and help me lynch him then.

[CarbonFiber]

That's not what I was saying. I was talking about mindset.

Also, my point was that there was nothing in that post that actually refuted what I was concerned about (probably not what Tammy was concerned about either), so you thinking like that was some big deal struck me as really odd and possibly struggling to find a reason to scumread us.

I think we are referring to different things. I was referring to more of Tammy's push on me about "coming up with new ways that AP is scum" while ignoring my multitude of posts pointing out that AP was doing the same thing so it felt odd that you went "oh, I agree" instead of "isn't AP doing it too?" I didn't realize your actual fear was both AP and I being scum.

Also, I take back what I wrote about helping me lynch AP in my previous post. I got serious again after swearing I'd let AP and Nacho win and congratulate them at endgame so. It if up to the town to figure shit out and I'm not going to push the town into lynching my scumspects.

[CarbonFiber]

1 Kagura (borkjerfkin + nachomamma8)
2 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir and DV)
4 Magenta_thegreat (mara and orci) 4 orcinus_theoriginal
5 Titan (Tammy + Sir Arthur Dane)
10 Carbon Fiber (FourTrouble and F16)
13 Red Gyarados (Brian Skies and notscience)
15 PeregrineV
16 Penguin_Alien16 Clyton

and if that were the case, that would mean all four scum would be somewhere in this list.

I don't think you are Arthur are scum, I don't think Gary is scum, and I know for sure that I'm not scum. Nacho doesn't seem to be scum this game, either but that's a read I'm not to sure on, which would mean the scum team is this


2 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir and DV)
10 Carbon Fiber (FourTrouble and F16)
15 PeregrineV
16 Penguin_Alien16 Clyton

this list is a little worrisome, though because it doesn't seem all to likely even as a PoE

Why doesn't Nacho seem to be scum this game? Can you elaborate on your townread on Red Gyarados?

[CarbonFiber]

Are you getting after me here.

Could you please stop posting this? It is irritating me. Nothing I'm doing this game has an attempt to "get at you" or at least not intentionally and I have no desire to do that.

You expect me to see you as obviously town and not question your affiliation and I am at that point right now in that I don't think anything will change my read. I half-wanted to respond to your question about my read on you with the same quote but that would have been immature so I wrote a long wall explaining stuff. There is nothing even new in there, just more graphic detail. I came into this game with high spirits and they've all sunk back down again - it is not to do with the players, in a different game, I'd be happier but this game has just been a downward spiral.

[CarbonFiber]

I think my AP read is as it was when I posted my reads list last night, and as indicated there, I currently think you more likely scum than him, but as I also said there, I feel that apart from JSU and Titan (and who actually knows with them really?) I don't have a good grasp on the game at all.

So, you think AP is town but think that I am scum because AP (your townread) was my secondary suspect? I don't see how your read on me changes from town to scum through agreement with Tammy saying we're scum together when you are not even sold on AP being scum. Elaborate on this.

Well of course you're going to say that you're not setting me up for a lynch. Even now you could go back on it and find me scummy enough to lynch or whatever.

Well, reads change - it is the reasoning for the change that matters. Why are acting like everyone that questions you is out there to lynch you and is scum setting you up? Like, it should be really obvious that I am trying to figure out your affiliation and it comes across as even wierder that your read changes from town to scum upon being questioned.

You said you liked my catch-up walls (I'm pretty sure this more accurately describes the posts you just said you don't like than JSU/Cupcake/AP but I plan on thinking about that as I ISO) and then you said you didn't, so obviously if you're scum that kind of thing is not beyond you.

I liked some of your catch up walls, didn't like others. I

just

explained this in my previous post. I even pointed out which ones I like and which ones I dislike.

I do worry about being too OMGUSy, but I feel like I've had good reason every time I have lashed out at someone for suspecting me, and it's not like I've ever relentlessly pushed a lynch because of it. With Stalin, ffery was using something as a scumtell that applied to the two main town games we shared. Nacho is nacho, and with you, it seems like you have contradicted yourself (although I am cautious about this) and I've explained why I think your response to my agreement with Tammy was kind of bad.

Is this something you routinely do in your town games?

There's also the fact that unless the scum are all among the top universal townreads (in which case we're all probably doomed anyway) they're probably running out of mislynches to procure, and even though I think we've been really town, we're obviously not townread strongly by anyone with a lot of influence, so it makes complete sense that scum would want us lynched, and we're probably one of the easier ones left to get. So even though I'm not going to get carried away with ranting about people suspecting me, I'm definitely going to consider it and pressure people where I can.

Okay, I can sort of see this as town. I guess it is just annoying when you react to questioning/suspicion by "you are suspecting me, ergo scum" because that sort of a response doesn't help me figure you out, and if you are town, it doesn't help me realize that.

See this is what confuses me. Everyone always goes on about how having good reads is only half the battle, and it has been mentioned many a time that my lack of confidence impedes me in this regard, but this kind of attitude surprises me from you and has me wondering whether you're only justifying it so that it fits with your play this game. And if you are town I'm really sorry for losing it earlier.

I am not exactly sure what you are talking about here. Mind rephrasing? What attitude from me surprises you, you seem to be implying that you expect a certain attitude from me?

As for why I am not pushing for lynches right now, it should be fairly obvious. Just look at the state of the game and look at how the majority of people are approaching the game and it should be obvious why I am trying to ease up (but failing so far).

[CarbonFiber]

-No, the possibility that you and AP were scum (and reasons for it) was the part of Tammy's post that I had also been worried about, but the reason why I've become concerned about you in particular is that I think you haven't exerted as much influence as I'd expect (with the AP thing being the best example of this). That's why I said in my reads post that my changed read on you was somewhat related to my comment on Tammy's post but not exactly. I haven't gone so far as to decide whether you being scum would make me more seriously consider AP-scum (although part of my reason for thinking AP-town was your miller claim so I suspect that I could).

Okay, so your initial issue was that I didn't exert influence to drive a lynch D3 like I did D1 and D2? And this had you concerned? Except that my push on AP wasn't any less than my push on Mastin or Rancid. With them, I helped build a wagon/lynch them because they didn't have someone claiming to back up their night action and apparently confirming them as town. With AP, JSU claimed to confirm him. So, it is not plausible to lynch AP even if he is scum and hunting for other scum takes priority. My push wasn't any less, just the effects were less and the reason is really obvious. What influence did you feel I didn't exert?

-But it is the reasoning that I have a problem with. Obviously town misread others all the time so I could very well be suspected by town here, but if I think the reasoning defies a player's previous experience with me, then I'm going to be concerned. Your initial posts in response to my Tammy comment were really flawed to me and because of that seemed like a read of convenience rather than a natural read change, especially since you had expressed little concern about my posts before that. I will admit that sometimes I go too far with this and I think self-centredness has something to do with it also, but I don't think there's too much harm if I react strongly as long as I'm not actually making lynch decisions out of it, and perhaps there's even value in being aggressive, I don't know.

I did express plenty of concerns over your slot fairly consistently before your response to Tammy's comment. ISO'ing me should make it clear. It is funny because I thought your read was the one that I worried was convenient because it came at a time when other people expressed suspicion. I like that you are on the lookout for convenient read changes but I am not seeing how you think mine was unless you didn't read my earlier posts and I'll wait for you to do that.

-If you mean considering people's reads of me when forming reads then yes. Best example I can think of is my town --> scum change in read of Titus in teen wolf mafia: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=775 (Pages 32-35), oh and also I think it was part of my AP scumread in NY 172 but finding it would be difficult.
-CF, changing my posting to help you read me as town is what I do when I'm scum (and also sometimes when I'm town and about to get lynched but shush don't tell anyone), so I don't think it's reasonable to expect that I do that... for now.

I don't expect you to change your posting, I expected you to interact with me so I could figure out your affiliation rather than essentially scumreading me for scumhunting. If you are as worried as you are about being mislynched when town, don't you think transparency would help and town finding other townies helps town overall so looking town isn't something you should only do as scum. But I'll look over your linked games and the Gundam Seed game to see if I can figure stuff out from there. I do think that a lot of your early posting felt really townish and I want to re-read those parts.

-The attitude of 'I can't make town vote for my scumread' (which I feel almost comes with the added on 'so I won't try too hard to convince them'). I expect that you'd be more involved in directing the town. This could be wrong of me, but your posting here does suggest a certain confidence in your abilities as town so I think I can assume you're not like me.

It depends on the game. I don't generally tunnel as hard as I do so this game is atypical but there have been games where I tunneled before. But this game is atypical as well in that I am not usually as frustrated with the gamestate but I think that can be said for everyone. I do think I was very involved in directing the town toward a Rancid lynch D1 although Nacho derailed it at the last moment and I was very involved doing it D2 with the Mastin lynch and I think Pie and I were the ones spending the most amount of time driving home the lynches and influencing who gets lynched so I am not sure what you are referring to with the not directing town. We were probably the only ones actually doing stuff and trying to get somewhere as opposed to sitting back and doing nothing. I actually don't usually do this. I am more of an analytical poster that tends to re-read the game multiple times and post analysis although I sort of gave up re-reading the game once the spam wars started.

The reason I gave up today is that I just got back from writing my last final and thought I wanted to enjoy this game more than win so there's that.

[CarbonFiber]

Beli, how are those townreads stale and not Nacho?

[CarbonFiber]

Yeah, I don't get Beli's POE on how any of those reads have gone stale. Fox/me going back and forth should give plenty of information to read us and NotScience's return does the same. Penguin, I can understand. In fact, if reads go stale, I'd expect it to be from the ones that faded out, like Nacho or Magenta.

I can buy townreads on JSU, Titan, and PV. Those are my three strongest townreads. I can buy not lynching AP because of JSU's result. That still leaves six people.

[CarbonFiber]

Scum are 4 out of these 6 players {AP, Nacho, Penguin, Magenta, FoxHound, RedGyarados}

Whichever of you are town, make it obvious please (looking at you, NotScience).

[CarbonFiber]

Can you explain your townread on Nacho? I am just not seeing what you are seeing.

[CarbonFiber]

I've had enough of this game. I am not sure why I keep checking it constantly. I am annoyed at town but I am going to try hard not to blame town for the state of the game but rather congratulate Nacho on being good scum.

Note to myself the next time I get irritated: It is not you and it is not the other townies. It is Nacho. He is a fantastic scum player. Don't rage at the town for being apathetic. Congratulate Nacho for sowing apathy this way. Nacho is going to win because he is brilliant, not because the town is bad and he fully deserves it!

Checking out of this game for good for a while. I've had enough, I'd much rather just play some other game.

[CarbonFiber]

Okay, out of the six players I listed I found you the most town so that's awesome. I was just hoping you'd something so obvtown that'll tip the scales into me banking the game on you being town so I can POE you out and focus on the others.

The thing I wanted to investigate further was Brian's read on Mastin. He said earlier that he townread Mastin but as the day went on, that he wouldn't be opposed to lynching him even though he was scumreading him in Post 4706 and he votes later on. Can you explain (or get him to explain) the thought process behind townreading Mastin to being okay with his lynch?

What do you think about my other reads so far: JSU, Titan, Stalin, PV as town with scum being among the remaining players?

[CarbonFiber]

NotScience, okay, I can buy Brian wanting to cut out the noise although I want to discuss it with him when he is here to make sure.

Tell me how you feel about these three players: The Fox and The Hound, MagentaTheGreat, Penguin_Alien. I'd like to hear what your reads on them are and reasoning why - more detail the better.

[CarbonFiber]

You could wagon Nacho regardless.

[CarbonFiber]

NotScience, what do you make of the fact that Orc wasn't really following the game at the time he was lynched? I figured town not engaged with the game would be more likely to put in a lurker instead of a scumread since they are not as invested in any particular player dying. Also, I am looking at his role as similar to a vengeful townie except he doesn't die but kills someone else. Also, did you notice his attempt to talk to Ffery during the cagefight? It felt like he put Stalin up there so he could talk to her, but it bothers me that he didn't really spend a lot of time talking to her D2 or sharing reads.

Penguin is on V/LA right now so I wouldn't say that her lack of activity is alignment indicative. I am really conflicted about whether to townread her attacks on me and Mastin because it fits her town meta and she has recently become aware of it. I also leaned town on her aggression with you when you showed up in the game and asked to be townread and part of her tone reads as townish to me. I want to wait to see what comes out of it though. The one thing I don't like is the way she pushed the hell out of Mastin while brushing aside concerns that Mastin and AP were partnered and focussed almost entirely on Mastin. The next day she comes back with a leaning scum on AP and a full out attack on me. Obviously, this is somewhat predicated on AP being scum. I guess I expected her to have better reads as well. Most times I've seen her, she's nailed the hell out of scumteams (Mini 1516 which I modded, and Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets and her reads made a lot more sense and were more inline with mine).

I do like the early FoxHound post you brought up and it resonated a lot with me when I still thought Mastin was scum. I don't know, they could be town. Something I'll re-evaluate later.

[CarbonFiber]

AP's blatant manipulation of Tammy makes me even more sure of my scumread there.

The whole rubbish suspicion on JSU when they are so incredibly obvtown it hurts.

[CarbonFiber]

AP is making logically sound statements while ignoring the context. Something that makes sense for good scum to do. He's right that it is theoretically possible for scum-BRO to have a meltdown but is ignoring that the overall circumstances point to it being much more likely town.

Secondly, BRO and Desp's reads list makes a lot of sense. They are genuinely working to solve the game, putting effort to see where I am coming from (especially with regards to my strong townread on Titan), and most of their analysis heavily resonates. It feels real and not opportunistically manipulative.

Thirdly, what they are saying makes sense. How they are approaching the game makes sense. It is true that PV is very likely town, that Stalin is town, and that Titan is town. It is true that me counterclaiming a slot with zMuffin in it is absurd. AP is continuing to ignore it creating all sorts of hypotheticals about how I could do it as scum when it just makes no fucking sense.

Fourth, Desp's turn-around and paranoia that they were being setup for a Mastin townflip makes so much sense and his attacks on Ffery and her reads list resonate vastly. Those were just the sort of things that bugged me about Ffery initially and Desp was vocalizing a lot of what I was worried about.

No one's play in this game has been more obviously town with the exception of Pieguyn's D1 and D2 play. So, sure, BRO's meltdown COULD come from scum, I just don't believe it to be the case.

[CarbonFiber]

Tammy, do you realize why I am so frustrated with this game?

[CarbonFiber]

Tammy, do you realize why I am so frustrated with this game?

Because I'm not blindly believing desbro is town when they refuse to act like it?

Well, no.

[CarbonFiber]

Tammy, BRO and Desp let me influence their read on you because I could see eye to eye with them for the most part. BRO even mentioned at the time of his end of D1 wallpost that Pieguy and I were his only allies. I'm also pretty sure that they don't have a massively strong scumread on your slot and possibly trust me to read you.

So, you are annoyed that BRO and Desp say that I can't play like this as scum while continuing to suspect you. Do you disagree with them about me? I don't think I've been more obvtown in any game as I have been here and am still astounded that you haven't come around to realizing that I am town here especially after I walled about my read on you hoping it would be more transparent. Yeah, I don't agree with their suspicion of you and I've made it blatantly obvious. I think they are way off base but at the same time, I see where they are coming from and recognize them as town as I see where your suspicion comes from and I am confident it is coming from a town place.

You spent so much time looking at my play through a microscope while not engaging me on my reads or thoughts beyond what it would take to sort me. I don't know, I guess it could be me - if the biggest reason I gave you to townread me was that I wouldn't trash your towngame, then my play must have been pretty crap but I do want to turn things around and I thought it was so obvious that I wouldn't spend this much time trying to sort Nacho, Fox, NotScience etc just looking at my most recent play even ignoring the whole miller stuff.

[CarbonFiber]

I get that. But you are expecting me or read you correctly (I am), you are expecting BRO to read you correctly (he's not) and using his incorrect read on you as at least a part of the reason for why he is scum. Looking at it from my POV, I'm just as surprised at your read on me as you are that BRO is reading you wrong because I have been BOPing you as you him (although I am not doubting that you are town). But his suspicion of you could come from town. It is really the only read I feel good about besides my read on you. I have weird paranoia of PV but I don't think he is scum either. I have a small amount of paranoia about Stalin but don't think they are scum either.

[CarbonFiber]

Who is scum with them?

Also, what happened to your Stalin townread?

[CarbonFiber]

I mean come on does anyone really believe even night tracker who doubles as a cop who just so happened to track ap to Stalin when katsuki claimed to block him?

I mean seriously, when there's already other investigative tropes out there?

Come on.

So, you are saying they are scum with AP and planned it all together?

Their role does seem somewhat OP but is neutered by being only even night. But, man if they fooled me here, I'll eat a thousand hats, then nominate them for a scummy.

What are your latest thoughts on The Fox and The Hound btw?

Also, I think you said somewhere that you are not as sure about your read on Stalin but I don't remember why.

[CarbonFiber]

Stalin or Fox?

[CarbonFiber]

Everyone's manipulating Tammy. It's a game wide adventure!

I don't see how jsu are so town it hurts. They've claimed they have to be read as town cuz breakdown, while ignoring other breakdowns. They've claimed you have to be town cuz sustainability while suspecting me. And when I point out the logical leap, des actually cites too many heads in which I got busted day one, did nothing, had two modkills, as evidence for my sustainability as scum while ignoring your wicked game.

Nope nope sorry not fucking buying it.

Bro fucking brags like a mother fucking bauss about his stellar fucking play, and I REFUSE REFUSE to believe he's not only a) reading me for such shit he should be ashamed of himself and b) deferring and actual "scum read" to someone else.

That's just nope nope sorry. Jsu is scum here.

Your scumgame

is

much better than mine and you said yourself that my posts were obviously scum in Wicked when viewed with knowledge of my affiliation. With regard to their read on me, they are picking up on things that no one else is bothering to look at with any real depth. I mentioned my miller cc earlier which as good as

confirms

me as town but I don't think anyone else (besides Nacho who I think is scum) has actually made an effort to realize how town it was (Rancid themselves did of course but there you go). I think Ffery did to a mild extent. PV did as well.

Fox (if they are town and I think they could be) have annoyingly been scumreading everyone that suspects them which makes it a nightmare to get a proper read.

Notty probably hasn't even read D1.

Penguin is completely ignoring it to push a ridiculously scum agenda.

AP of course has been spouting a theory about how I should expect to skate by which is a massive stretch.

Also, they are the only ones who accurately figured out that it would be impossible for me to play like this as scum. Pushing lynches with conviction D1 and D2 and spending such a ridiculous amount of time working with people and trying to organize the town, I just don't or can't do it as scum. And BRO-Desp being the only one to genuinely pin down why I am obviously town here - I liked the accuracy in their read.

Yeah, they are wrong about you, but I guess they can't read you? Comparing your scumgame to mine is rather modest on your part btw. I made a quick list of your scumgames and saw that almost all of the time, you survive and win the game and that's pretty damn good.

Spoiler: Tammy's amazing scumgames

1) Heterosexual Revolution Lovers Mafia -

Arthur was lynched, not you

2) Otherworld Mafia -

Screwed over by two scummy predecessors

3) Abarat: Days of Magic -

Committed suicide late game

4) NY 157 -

Lynched Day 4

5) American Revolution -

Survived and won

6) Rocky Horror Mafia Show -

Survived and won

7) TM 2012: Closed Normal -

Survived and won

8) Stacking the Deck -

Survived and won

9) The Red Wedding -

Investigated by cop

,

survived to lategame

10) Chosen Mafia -

Survived and won

11) Anything Goes Mafia -

Killed but screwed over by the traitor, would have won otherwise

12) Red Wine -

Survived and won

13) Too Many Heads -

Survived and won

14) Sleepy Hollow -

Recruited so don't count this

I color coded it. Blue is where something extraneous happens unrelated to the game. Green is where you survive and win. Red is where you are caught and lynched. The grand total of the number of times town lynches you without the aid of investigative results, traitors screwing you over, your lover getting lynched etc is: ONE time. Out of fourteen games. (And I'm glad I made this list because I'll bring it up whenever you downplay your scumgame. So, yeah, I wasn't bullshitting about the "Tammy has a spectacular scumgame" thing.

[CarbonFiber]

"Catching" is different from lynching. I'm sure there were quite a few people who "caught" you in all those amazing scumgames. They just didn't succeed in getting you lynched because of your rhetorical abilities. I understand and appreciate your playstyle (or so I think). I wouldn't expect someone who doesn't to be able to read you as well? Also, I'm pretty sure I caught Nacho in less than 25 posts in more than one game anyways. Like here and fairly quickly here.

[CarbonFiber]

And I think Nacho has just as amazing a scumgame.

[CarbonFiber]

I would really really love reasons besides anxiety attack that brodes is town. I don't mean to sound heartless because I believe that was real, and I hate to see people get that stressed, but it doesn't make it town or game related.

So, reasons other than that. Go!

Lalala!

STILL WAITING ON AN ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION! TIA!!!

Part of my response was in that post I wrote up (you've skipped straight to the section about your scumgame, I see. I knew you would!) I'll get to the rest of it soon.

[CarbonFiber]

Did you read Fall of Gondolin? Desp just lurkaderped and let Tierce and Shadoweh carry the team. Then he did sort of the same thing in the Reckoning, didn't he?

It's not just meltdown though. Their reads on Mastin and Rancid made sense to me and resonated. Their pushes made sense. I don't know how best to explain this. Remember how you said D2 that Ffery was your strongest townread because she viewed the game in a similar lens as you? That's how I feel about BRO-Desp and

that's

the biggest reason I am townreading them. I was townreading Pie even harder for the same reason and my read here isn't as strong as my read on Pie but it is still pretty strong.

I HATE THIS GAME TOO. I wish we could both teleport into some other game and have more fun there.

[CarbonFiber]

I don't know. I have a crazy paranoia they could be scum because I've never seen you so sure and wrong.

[CarbonFiber]

THEY'RE GOING TO FAKE CLAIM A GUILTY ON SOMEONE TOMORROW IN LYLO AND LAUGH AS YOU FUCKS HAVE LET THEM SLIDE BY ON SHIT AND SHIT.

This is what I was partly worried AP would do but then he'd have a hard time selling that scum let him view one of them.

Now that I think about it, I actually wonder why he would claim the role he claimed since scum-AP brags about fake-claiming guilities so IDK. If he is town, I'm not sure what a scumteam would look like.

Who do you think are their partnered with BRO-Desp though? I want to see your theory even if you are somewhat vague on scum/townreads at this point.

[CarbonFiber]

Nacho! Did you see the posts where I congratulate you?

[CarbonFiber]

Which game was it in and who was it?

[CarbonFiber]

Where's that reads list?

[CarbonFiber]

It's like people saying "oh you're playing a fantastic game if you're scum" and all you can do is look at them and be angry for their backhanded compliment, since I guess that's all it is. Do you think i still deserve compliments if town?

I didn't think of it that way

Of course you deserve compliments if you are town. You are the only person who has read me correctly.

Well, if you are town, this game is not all lost and we still have hope for a win.

[CarbonFiber]

So I think this is a pretty poor excuse to not get a read on us (especially considering 6860). It's also actually pretty unfair considering that Stalin suspects me and while I think I quite reasonably (you haven't given any good argument otherwise) pressured them on that earlier, my last reads list had them as town. And the third thing is that you've actually been behaving similarly this game. The times that you've come closer to scumreading us have been the times that I've been less sure of my read on you and pressured you accordingly. I don't actually think it has occurred anywhere else. The same thing happened with Tammy earlier, and you are similarly more responsive to those townreading you (e.g. JSU) than those not. So I don't think this quote actually applies to us any more than it applies to you, and so I wonder why you'd make a point of complaining about it if it's actually similar to your own play (and I'd actually wonder in any case because I don't think it makes any sense.)

My Stalin comment was a reference to Beli's read on the two of us going "stale" which I disagreed with because we had been quite active in the thread. My inability to get a read on you is me recognizing that I am getting biased into scumreading you when you respond the way you have instead of addressing the suspicion.

Just calling me scum for scumreading you isn't going to change my mind and that's bad if you are town and I'm trying to step back and look at it more objectively. And no, I don't think you OMGUSing me is scummy. It just is making me biased and clouding my judgment.

I am not townreading Titan who isn't townreading me, scumreading Nacho who is townreading me, scumread Rancid and Mastin even though they eventually townread me, townread Mac who scumread me etc. So, no I disagree that my play is similar. But you make a fair point in that you changed your read on Stalin back to town so that's good.

[CarbonFiber]

AP is making logically sound statements while ignoring the context. Something that makes sense for good scum to do. He's right that it is theoretically possible for scum-BRO to have a meltdown but is ignoring that the overall circumstances point to it being much more likely town.

Oh ffs. I haven't read that since it happened. The context isn't going to make one bit of difference in my opinion. BRO wanted to lynch RBD, he got votes, shit happened.

The fact that he 'wanted to lynch RBD so bad' is YOUR point for why this must be from town and TBH its pretty unrelated to the whole incident. I was tunneling on Grimgroove in Legends of the Hidden Temple and when I got wagoned I was having a shitty day and flipped out at everyone just flat out. And people called me town for it. Im not saying its a direct comparison, but your point is bad and you calling me scum for ignoring something irrelevant is terrible.

You agreed that it felt real here initially. What changed your mind?

Secondly, Tammy has said that she agrees with me on this stance but you are chosing to argue with me/call me scum instead of doing the same to Tammy over this. That is selective and shows you are trying to tread lightly around Tammy because your alliance with her is so fragile. Thats not town motivated.

I don't have an "alliance" with Tammy, she thinks I am probably scum at this point and isn't listening to me so no idea what you are talking about. I'm not accusing her of being scum because I am confident in my townread. I feel that you changed your mind from BRO-town to BRO-scum because of her read. Your and Tammy's reads are not exactly the same.

[CarbonFiber]

I dislike that he spent all of D1/2 shoving a 3 way connection case, just to defer to Appealing to Authority after mastin flipped town in order to justify scumreading me still. It looks opportunistic and does not look like someone whose world was rocked by having his top 2 scumreads that he was EXTREMELY CONFIDENT about flip town.

Except Mastin said with his dying breath that you were scum and his townflip made me suspect you more. I initially considered that you were scum together but also wondered if he was town and you were scum at some points.

I dont even know what to say. But the absolute certainty here which 180s at the drop of a hat is baffling. And I dont get how on earth he thinks hes being setup in the first place.

I explained this in my massive read wall about the flow of my read on Tammy.

Town aligned players generally take responsibility for their misplays because they have some sense of accountability. Instead of owning up to shoving mastin incorrectly, we get this ridiculous sideshow in which he implies that the mastin lynch was setup by Tammy?? despite him spending all of D2 talking about how scummy mastin was, how mastin was scum with RBD, and how mastin was scum with me in an effort to convince Stalin/Tammy to lynch mastin. On top of all that he has at at least on juncutre called you scum for not voting mastin despite pushing her, even though he is guilty of precisely that AND also trying to push the mastin lynch off on Tammy for HAMMERING AT DEADLINE.

1) I did own up to being wrong about Mastin which is more than most others can say.
2) There was no alternative - nobody provided any sort of alternative or did much to figure the game out.
3) I didn't call Nacho scum for voting Mastin. I explained it to you in my wall.

about how Tammy is confirmed scum for voting the lynch that he was shoving literally all game.

Also explained here. I won't even get into the typing thing, that's just ridiculous.

Just to be an ass: The CONTEXT of the miller CC is what makes me dislike it and its scummy of JSU/CF to ignore the context. The context of course being that he
1) withheld what he personally views as a GUILTY RESULT on someone until way late on in the Day. No reason for town to sit on its thumbs when thye are 100% convinced they have role related reasons for thinking someone is confscum
2) did not stop to consider that he could be wrong. Just kept shoving the case despite all of his townreads (and everyone) telling him it wasnt a good reason for a vote.

1) I was happy with wagoning Mastin earlier in the day. We assumed that RBD would gladiate JSU and lock themselves into a lynch of either them or JSU. Then, we'd counterclaim them. (This was explained already)
2) It was a good reason for a vote. They were all wrong. There aren't two millers in the game. The playerslot I was pushing were fake-claiming my role.

[CarbonFiber]

Except Mastin said with his dying breath that you were scum and his townflip made me suspect you more. I initially considered that you were scum together but also wondered if he was town and you were scum at some points.

I don't really see why this would be a change, she said it with every other breath too. She also called basically every player in the game both town and scum (hi).

The playerslot I was pushing were fake-claiming my role.

This still isn't logic, there is still no reason two millers would be totally farfetched.

1) Isn't it obvious? Because Mastin and AP know each other really well and I'll take a scumread from Mastin onto AP into consideration when Mastin is town.
2) It is.

Also, your stance on this issue is scummy.

[CarbonFiber]

Because I called you scummy?

[CarbonFiber]

Your response felt scummy because you are commenting on stuff that should be incredibly obvious. X knows Y very well, X died and flipped town and called Y scum. So, I take X's opinion into consideration. I don't get why you are acting like it is really far-fetched logic that you can't understand.

Secondly, there are several things in AP's post that are factually wrong. For example, saying that I called Nacho scum for not voting. I didn't. Saying that appeal to authority is scummy (it isn't). The fact that you didn't comment on anything or correct him shows you are either positioning yourself to scumread me by commenting negatively on my posts. Because you would either a) not comment at all and let it play out, or b) call out something that is blatantly wrong and don't mind inserting yourself into arguments.

The fact that you doing it selectively feels like you are not actually scumhunting.

[CarbonFiber]

No, I've been viewing you as more and more crazy as the game has progressed. I might take your opinions more into account if you stopped bouncing off the damn walls.

This feels like a massive discredit because I pushed you and DV earlier. Your reaction was just bad. You and RG were two of the slots I was unsure on and so interacted with both of you to try and sort you.

NotScience responded wonderfully. He addressed my concerns about his slot, explained Brian's reads, explained his other reads when asked and in general was incredibly transparent. You and DV on the other hand, scumread me for scumhunting you, throw in discredits, and try to position yourself against me. If you are town, I don't even know what to say.

[CarbonFiber]

Also, Tammy when you get around to reading this game, please, please explain to me why the fuck you are ignoring scummy players like AP and Fox to tunnel on the most townish player in the game.

[CarbonFiber]

Your response felt scummy because you are commenting on stuff that should be incredibly obvious. X knows Y very well, X died and flipped town and called Y scum. So, I take X's opinion into consideration. I don't get why you are acting like it is really far-fetched logic that you can't understand.

I guess it's just that I never see anyone actually doing this

Really? That's quite odd. You saw me in NY169 taking the opinions of dead players into account to various extents.

Secondly, there are several things in AP's post that are factually wrong. For example, saying that I called Nacho scum for not voting. I didn't. Saying that appeal to authority is scummy (it isn't). The fact that you didn't comment on anything or correct him shows you are either positioning yourself to scumread me by commenting negatively on my posts. Because you would either a) not comment at all and let it play out, or b) call out something that is blatantly wrong and don't mind inserting yourself into arguments.

The fact that you doing it selectively feels like you are not actually scumhunting.

You're assuming I have a clue. I wander into people's arguments all the time. I'd think the "let's wait and see what happens" approach is more one I'd take as scum.

You keep doing this thing where you attribute plans and trajectories to my posts. Like, "Ceph must be hating on this post because he plans on scumreading me later". I don't really work that way.

It is kinda hard to figure out your thought process when you respond with "I have no idea what I am doing and aimlessly wandering into arguments." It feels disarming. But it still relieves you of responsibility.

[CarbonFiber]

It is a massive discredit. I think everything you're currently saying needs to be taken with a grain of salt if we don't want to drive our paranoia bus into the ground.

This applies to every player in the game and is implied when playing mafia.

But, you trying to dismiss my suspicion of you as crazy doesn't bode well. And of course people should take any player's suspicion of another with a grain of salt but stating that as opposed to addressing said suspicion.

[CarbonFiber]

I still can't get over how many hoops you're jumping through to make AP scum. This is something that continually bugs me.

Why

doesn't

it make you suspicious that AP is jumping through a bunch of hoops to paint me as scum?

Instead of telling me two millers are unlikely, you should be telling AP that godfathers exist in the game. It is your take on the argument that I find scummy. If feel like you are spending time refuting the arguments of people you are positioning to scumread instead of looking at it objectively and then falling back on a "I have no idea what I am doing."

[CarbonFiber]

In any case, I kinda give up on following your thought process especially after NY169. I don't even know if it comes from scum or just someone wandering aimlessly and I'll wait for DV's analysis and content before trying to read your slot.

[CarbonFiber]

Because I can kinda see where he's coming from, and it's all based on inthread things anyway rather than cop results.

Of course they do. I am sure he is aware of this. The point does remain that you should be hesitating given the cop result rather than immediately jumping to the godfather conclusion. Overconfidence makes me wary, largely because of who I am.

I'm not positioning. I'm saying what I think about different posts. This is how I play mafia. Eventually it all, in theory, adds up to an opinion. If you look at every comment I've made towards you this game, in entirety I think it's pretty clear I still believe you are probably town. So does DV at present, and I imagine rereading you will probably lead him to affirm that opinion. D3 and 4 have been giving me more doubts than I had before, sure, and the game just generally going to shit is making more dubious of everything in general.

Assuming you are right is not the same as looking at something objectively, and it's kind of silly of you to claim such when you are clearly tunneling.

I explained why I thought you were positioning but the tl;dr is that you are not correcting AP when he says "scum cc'd the miller" and continuing to explore the possibility while not exploring an equally likely possibility of there being a scum GF especially considering the last Cabd game (which especially seems at odds with your townread on me) and it comes across like you are positioning. Then you backtrack saying that wander aimlessly into arguments. I just... I give up trying to read you.

[CarbonFiber]

Nacho - I think I'm going to call you town. This might only last ten minutes. It could last longer, but I need to feel the jazz. I just read you and borks iso before he left and there's a bunch I like, some of its a bit easy listening but there's some upbeat tempo in some parts that make me smile. I'd like to see more of that.

This was red.

Also if this was red, and if in that moment I was right, please help me stay red.

This fits and starts and promises thing you're doing isn't helping. I need something this game to help me make sense of stuff I can believe in who I understand and who understands me and won't jump my shit for being paranoid in the wrong way/not trusting people/not seeing the game the same way they are.

Are you talking about me?

[CarbonFiber]

Are you talking about me?

maybe with that last one about not seeing the game the same way, but the rest of that comment was likely directed towards us

Yeah, I am not sure I follow the whole jumping shit for being paranoid/not seeing the game similarly.

[CarbonFiber]

Thank god, someone that actually makes sense posted. You should have killed AP N2. Anyways, PV, give me a quick update on where your reads are at.

[CarbonFiber]

Nachomamma8 propose a scum team for me.

Orc/PV/penguin/fox

..................................................................................

Everyone, look at this very carefully and tell me what you see. Concentrate on it for 5 minutes.

[CarbonFiber]

Thank god, someone that actually makes sense posted. You should have killed AP N2. Anyways, PV, give me a quick update on where your reads are at.

Unless the last 30 pages contain mystical answers to as yet asked questions,

Town-me, you, JustSheep

Not first choice for scum -
Breakfast
FoxHound

Used to think was town before replacement
16 Penguin_Alien16 Clyton
4 Magenta_thegreat (mara and orci) 4 orcinus_theoriginal

Leaving 4 scum by PoE & play

1 Kagura (borkjerfkin + nachomamma8) <--most likely
5 Titan (Tammy + Sir Arthur Dane) <---I know this is unpopular, but I want empirical evidence of townhood, not circumstantial
9 AngryPidgeon 9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling) <----This may be switchable with the 2 categories above it.
13 Red Gyarados (Brian Skies and notscience) <-----because I still have a null-read 7000 posts into the game. Experience says that it's probably scum.

This makes a lot of sense and feels town as fuck.

[CarbonFiber]

Who did you shoot last night?

Good question!

Who SHOULD I have shot last night? And know it was not either townread I have left.

I love, love, LOVE this post.

[CarbonFiber]

Thank god, someone that actually makes sense posted. You should have killed AP N2. Anyways, PV, give me a quick update on where your reads are at.

Unless the last 30 pages contain mystical answers to as yet asked questions,

Town-me, you, JustSheep

Not first choice for scum -
Breakfast
FoxHound

Used to think was town before replacement
16 Penguin_Alien16 Clyton
4 Magenta_thegreat (mara and orci) 4 orcinus_theoriginal

Leaving 4 scum by PoE & play

1 Kagura (borkjerfkin + nachomamma8) <--most likely
5 Titan (Tammy + Sir Arthur Dane) <---I know this is unpopular, but I want empirical evidence of townhood, not circumstantial
9 AngryPidgeon 9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling) <----This may be switchable with the 2 categories above it.
13 Red Gyarados (Brian Skies and notscience) <-----because I still have a null-read 7000 posts into the game. Experience says that it's probably scum.

Thisthisthisthisthisthisthis. So fucking this.

Just look at this post, see how much sense it makes.

I was getting really confused and lost with all the latest posting but I'm glad PV jumped in and actually started making sense and looking at the game in a way that I can understand. Thank god you are in the game.

[CarbonFiber]

Who SHOULD I have shot last night? And know it was not either townread I have left.

Probably me since you are scum and all that.

Non-responsive answer. Noted.

AP is allergic to answering questions.

[CarbonFiber]

I'm not getting the whole idea about lynching yourself.

[CarbonFiber]

Okay, I can roll with that.

VOTE: Scum-Tam

[CarbonFiber]

Falcon - You've upped your scum game. I'm really proud of you!

Is this the same backhanded compliment I unwittingly gave Nacho?

[CarbonFiber]

Okay, so Tammy said she wanted to be lynched so what's the holdup?

[CarbonFiber]

Like really

If we want to lynch town who isn't worth shit lynch me (but save brian because he is :d)

Town-Tammy doesn't vote me. She scumclaimed. What do you make of that?

[CarbonFiber]

Who SHOULD I have shot last night? And know it was not either townread I have left.

Probably me since you are scum and all that.

Non-responsive answer. Noted.

NO. IM NOT PLAYING 20 QUESTIONS WITH YOU. EITHER CLAIM YOUR NIGHT ACTION OR GET DUNKED.

It wasn't 20 questions. You are asking questions to ask them, not with intent to use the answers to scumhunt. Pretty certain you've been doing that all game.

THIS. FUCKING THIS.

I don't see why no one else is commenting on it.

[CarbonFiber]

NotScience, have you ever voted for yourself as town or scum before? Can you link those games?

[CarbonFiber]

PV, what are your thoughts about my latest posts?

NotScience, can you explain why you prefer not to lynch Tammy when she asked to be lynched? That implies a certain role that benefits from being lynched, doesn't it?

[CarbonFiber]

Woah, what is going on?

Vote Tammy please or explain in detail why you won't.

[CarbonFiber]

Woah, what is going on?

Vote Tammy please or explain in detail why you won't.

I'm not voting Tammy because I have no idea why I should (I'll read up soon though).

Okay, let me know when you are ready?

[CarbonFiber]

Gah, pretending to suspect Tammy always ends in disaster.

UNVOTE:

[CarbonFiber]

So, I agreed with PV's reads-list because I was paranoid of him. I still had him as a fairly strong town read but some of his posts troubled me, especially with how certain he was that I was town - like without a shadow of a doubt and I wondered if I interacted with him in an overly scummy manner, he would call me out on it or get paranoid of me. He didn't. It should have been fairly obvious to everyone else that I was reaction testing him and others considering the "thisthisthisthisthis" was basically a copy of what Tammy wrote to AP. Also, me quoting a post and saying I loved it makes no fucking sense because PV didn't actually say anything in it besides snarkily attacking AP.

So, I don't know, I still think PV is town but my paranoia didn't subside.

I pretended to suspect Tammy because I wanted to see who opportunistically jumped on my wagon if they thought it was going to be a 1v1. NotScience's reaction felt blatantly town, his self-vote felt town, and the fact that he never jumped on my wagon but discussed it with Tammy about whether I could be scum with his other suspects felt town.

Tammy, I wasn't reaction testing. I am certain in this townread. I thought she was going to head out so I thought this was a nice time to get more reactions out of people while she's not present to get frustrated. But, that idea didn't go over very well.

What I get from this is that Notty is town and I didn't get rid of my PV paranoia. Fox's reaction was nullnullnull.

[CarbonFiber]

PV, what are your thoughts about my latest posts?

NotScience, can you explain why you prefer not to lynch Tammy when she asked to be lynched? That implies a certain role that benefits from being lynched, doesn't it?

Only kind of skimmed until last few pages.

Who are Tammy's other 3 choices for scum besides you?

I don't know. What I wanted to see was whether you would be bothered by me buddying you. I was getting paranoid of how sure you were that I was town.

[CarbonFiber]

Woah, what is going on?

Vote Tammy please or explain in detail why you won't.

I'm not voting Tammy because I have no idea why I should (I'll read up soon though).

Okay, let me know when you are ready?

I take it back.

I have no interest in hydraing with you.

Because apparently me as scum pushed you?

How is this not sarcasm??????????????????????????????????????

You recognized that I wasn't being serious?

I am actively searching for a reason you would deliberately antagonize Tammy AGAIN after apparently feeling bad about it before and I am coming up empty handed

I never antagonized but do you find it scummy?

[CarbonFiber]

Post 7193 was actually just a scum claim. PV, please PLEASE stop whtever you are doing. I dont get it.

Nothing CF posted is as town as you are implying. No one wnats to go on your freaking esater egg hunt.

Twon-CF did not just fake all this on Tammy for reactions. Its scum, just stop pandering to it and lynch it.

I just said I wasn't looking for her reaction, I was looking for other people's reactions.

[CarbonFiber]

Gah, pretending to suspect Tammy

always ends in disaster.

UNVOTE:

Also, this is a scumslip.

The last time this happened you claimed that it was REAL PARANOIA and that you had a REAL BREAKDOWN because Tammy voted you.

Now you are claiming to have faked it.

I was not referring to this game.

[CarbonFiber]

Eliminating RG out, that leaves 4 scum among {AP, Nacho, Penguin, Magenta, Fox}. This is assuming that PV will confirm his role again at some point.

[CarbonFiber]

And what exactly do you suppose is that scum motivation for making purposefully weird looking posts directed at PV to see how he would react?

The thing that bugged me about him was he never, ever doubted my affiliation in a way that bothered me. I acted strangely in front of him to see how he would react. I didn't expect Tammy and Fox to find me scummy and push me for it but when they did, I rolled with it to see how others would approach it.

The one solid read I got out of it was NotScience as town.

[CarbonFiber]

1) Why am I not voting the Nacho wagon is a stupid accusation. We are nowhere near deadline. We're not lynching right now. Who I am voting is irrelevant.

2) Tammy voted me in the middle of me testing PV. I voted her back to see how others would take it.

3) I thought she wouldn't be around because she said she wouldn't be:

But, I've got to get to graduation so I'm going to stop beating my head against this wall and hoping something starts making sense!

This is why I thought she wouldn't be around.

4) Your continued pursuit of this feels like scum who want to continue to push a mislynch without realizing that this was a reaction test.

So, AP why did you claim an innocent result on me D2? You are acting like you have never heard of reaction testing people.

I also said in the neighborhood that I wanted to see reactions so.

[CarbonFiber]

I need to head out as well actually.

Tammy, when you get back, please tell me you see the obvious pro-town motivation for me to test PV and continuing to test NotScience, Fox, and AP to see how they react to unexpected posts because if you don't see it, I give up and you should lynch me and it is probably for the best either because I don't want to make it to LYLO with the way things are going.

[CarbonFiber]

AP, are you actually reading my posts?

[CarbonFiber]

AP, I JUST explained it to you that the "again" wasn't referring to this game? What don't you get? It is like you are ignoring my posts to continue to harp on it.

[CarbonFiber]

Like you said my pretending to be suspicious had to do with early D3.

I pointed out that I wasn't referring to this game at all.

Then you are again saying that I am suspicious for it and can't grasp the mental gymnastics that I was referring to a different game? Like, are you five?

[CarbonFiber]

The one thing my reaction test did was ABSOLUTELY confirm beyond a doubt that AP is scum. I'll eat a hat if I'm wrong about this.

[CarbonFiber]

AP, did you ever vote yourself as town out of frustration?

[CarbonFiber]

How about in the past?

Because if you never did, this feels like theatrics.

[CarbonFiber]

I don't get why you'd vote yourself though besides wanting everyone to think that you are frustrated town?

[CarbonFiber]

BUT, I'd actually rather prefer I get lynched because if we lynch some other townie today, we lose for sure.

So, everyone please vote me in your next post.

Also, please realize that if we mislynch today and I get to LYLO, everyone will obviously vote me, so it is more strategic to lynch me today so town at least has a chance tomorrow. I don't want to be the auto-lynch in LYLO and I kinda want out anyways,

[CarbonFiber]

Fox is obvscum based on their last post. It is absolutely ridiculous. There is no way any of AP/Nacho/Fox are town in this game. The last scum has to be between Magenta, and Penguin although I am a little paranoid of PV.

[CarbonFiber]

Just Sheep Us, if the scumteam is Nacho/Fox/AP/Penguin, if we lynch Magenta today, we're screwed.

Think about what's optimal for town right now.

[CarbonFiber]

Carbon, I'd like to know where my thoughts on your reaction test are wrong and so obviously from scum.

Why do you think that'll help?

---

I'm not scumclaiming, I want you to vote me because I assessed the state of the town right now and realized that me getting lynched before LYLO gives us a better chance of a win.

[CarbonFiber]

I'm not scumclaiming, I want you to vote me because I assessed the state of the town right now and realized that me getting lynched before LYLO gives us a better chance of a win.

Are you off the wagon for moral/idealistic reasons?

No, it'll give town more info if I get six other people to vote me.

[CarbonFiber]

Okay, now I really need to head out.

While I prefer the day to end sooner rather than later, I still want to post a massive list of all of my reads so people have something to go off of tomorrow so don't hammer before then if I get to 5 votes. I'm cool with getting hammered sometime tonight. I really don't want to wake up tomorrow, open my laptop and realize that I am still in this game.

[CarbonFiber]

DV, isn't it really obvious that if we lynch some other townie today, someone's going to vote me in LYLO? We as good as lost this game unless we lynch AP/Nacho and the way things are going, it probably won't be the case. Lynching me now will provide town with much needed resets while going into LYLO and eliminates a supposedly "scummy" player which overall has benefits. If you are town, please see the obvious. If you are scum, quit the act, it is annoying.

[CarbonFiber]

CF, if there was going to be enough support to lynch another townie today, then what's stopping that townie from being lynched in LYLO instead?

Nothing.

PEdit: well yeah, but I'm kind of like that too, so...

I'm so bad at this.

Because a lot of people find me scummy and it allows them a much needed reset. If we deadline lynch another townie or lurker lynch, then it'll be the same thing over again tomorrow. I played crappily. I look justifiably scummy. I can't even convince the one person who can read me really well that I am town for actual pro-town actions. The only thing I'm doing this game is getting on everybody's nerves. I just want out out of this game because I can't concentrate on anything else while it is going on. I want to play some other game, revise and reset and learn from mistakes here. I just don't feel like playing this game and lynching me now will give much needed info and resets that let town still have a shot at winning.

[CarbonFiber]

Make up your mind DV. You are going to be annoying either way, aren't you? You don't believe I am town when I explained to you why; you won't believe that lynching me because I look scummy is a good idea either. Like the only thing you are doing is hedging.

[CarbonFiber]

EVERYTHING THAT THE FOX AND THE HOUND POSTED IS FAKE AS HELL.

All of it is inflammatory bullshit that is trying to serve the scum agenda. All of their comments are positioning and discrediting. It is a whole load of absolute crap.

[CarbonFiber]

I am talking about Post 7243 which is the last in a long line of faked crap.

Also, please vote me, I won't consider it a scumclaim because it is pro-town. I really want to get on with my life/play other mafia games and that's not hapenning until I'm lynched.

[CarbonFiber]

@ Tammy, I know he seems waay too certain in his read on me which is why I tried to gauge his reaction and my blatant sucking up to him didn't ruffle him in the slightest makes me really paranoid of a scum vig.

[CarbonFiber]

if you're town can we stop fighting?

also I did briefly skim, but VODKA and dancing happened tonight, and I haven't slept all week so thinking is not possible and I'm going to go play video games. Maybe I'll be back in a bit or maybe I'll pass out.

WHO KNOWS!

Yes, definitely. So, I told Nacho in the neighborhood earlier why I'm getting so frustrated with this game and he told me that I ought to give time and space to other players and not be as pushy which I was doing for nearly this entire game.

[CarbonFiber]

OK. Basically caught up (sorry, lots of IRL stuff to resolve), and we have a goddamn scum lynch for today.

VOTE: CarbonFiber

a) There is absolutely no way in hell town-F-16 was reaction testing obvtown-Titan for that long.

b) I completely believe that he's scum who wants town-Tammy dead via lynch today and no later.

I'd lynch magenta or JSU, but I think CF's the scum flip that's going to break the game open for us. And really, JSU would be for information to confirm AP and BWS.

Tammy, I'm assuming when it's not 2 AM your time and you have a minute we can chat, but for the love of absolutely everything that is holy, stop trying to get yourself lynched, FFS.

Also thinking this is town-Nacho. I want to think I'm seeing PV-town here in the way he's presenting his thoughts, but I'm not sold yet. And even though info from a JSU flip is a thing, I really still want to town read them, so I have zero problem lynching a supposed miller who spent absolutely ages trying to lynch Tammy while cheerleading other town mislynches and not voting them. There's a difference between being slow to vote and goading other people into voting in your stead.

So town reads on Nacho, BWS, AP, JSU, Tammy --> scum = CF, magenta, RG...PV/F&H? Not sure about the fourth slot, but I'd lynch any of the first three happily.

...and posting this, incoherent as it is, because I'm zonked and just glad to be done dealing with V/LA stuff.

P-edit: Tammy...talk to me when you're not toasted.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, thanks for scumclaiming so blatantly, Penguin because I was really unsure about who the scum were.

a) I was reaction testing PV, not Titan and possibly AP, Fox, and RG as well as I made it incredibly obvious in my later posts.

b) LOLOLOLOLOL. You are actually kidding, right? If I was scum wanting town-Tammy dead, I'd approach it so, so differently and try to fly under the radar, not make a spectacle of myself hoping I'd garner reactions from all the active players.

Also,

1) Why in the hell would you lynch JSU when you spent so much time saying that BRO was town and apparently convinced Tammy in the neighborhood to back off?

2) Please explain your townread on Nacho.

[CarbonFiber]

VOTE: Penguin_Alien

Bring it, bring it, bring it. You KNOW that I know you are scum. No backing off now.

[CarbonFiber]

Ceph's BS, I can write off as playstyle issues because of NY169 but yours are just blatantly scum.

[CarbonFiber]

Penguin, here are my guesses for who your buddies are: AngryPidgeon, The Fox and The Hound, Nacho8, Magenta. (three of those four obviously).

[CarbonFiber]

WHERE'D YOU GO PENGUIN?

[CarbonFiber]

Scum QT Posts:

Penguin

: I'm going to make a post voting F-16 but he might catch me.

Penguin

: Well, we're screwed.

Nacho

: Don't worry about it, no fear.

AP

: You are doing great Penguin, keep pushing him on it and we can get a mislynch. Then we push Fox or Magenta tomorrow for the win.

Penguin

: Should I lay off of F-16 and push an easier lynch.

Nacho

: Right now, F-16 is having the worst game of his life. He pushed the hell out of two mislynches/misvigs. He has the scumteam nailed now but won't be able to do anything about it because he lost so much towncred after D1 and D2. Make your push and make it hard and strong. 1v1 him and you will win. Remember, NO FEAR!

[CarbonFiber]

Well gee, after you so accurately nailed me to the wall I just set myself on an ice floe and consigned myself to a tragic death.

Or waiting for you to get a better fake freak-out posted.

Or flirting with the mod on Skype to see if I can get a day vig shot and save us all a lot of trouble.

Pick one.

I pick Option D. Telling your buddies that you feel scared about pushing me but them reassuring you that this is a battle that you can win.

[CarbonFiber]

Holy fuck, will you stop complaining about how I am supposedly not trying to get AP lynched and actually vote him or something? It is really ridiculous how you are complaining about me not wanting to lynch AP while supposedly townreading him. Either you think he is scum and I am avoiding lynching my buddy (fucking LOL), or you think he is town and your discussion is absolutely meaningless. I also addressed your point about AP several times so it feels now like you are being intentionally obtuse and repeating it like a broken record.

[CarbonFiber]

Nacho, help me lynch Fox.

[CarbonFiber]

Holy fuck, will you stop complaining about how I am supposedly not trying to get AP lynched and actually vote him or something? It is really ridiculous how you are complaining about me not wanting to lynch AP while supposedly townreading him. Either you think he is scum and I am avoiding lynching my buddy (fucking LOL), or you think he is town and your discussion is absolutely meaningless. I also addressed your point about AP several times so it feels now like you are being intentionally obtuse and repeating it like a broken record.

I'm not complaining, and as I think I've covered you not liking something I'm saying about you probably won't change me thinking it. I'm not sure if it means you're scum with him or if you're just scum that doesn't care about lynching your scumreads. I'm not even sure if I think you're scum yet!

Because you are not making any sort of sense. AP and I have mutually been scumreading each other for the vast majority of the time and I have spent possibly an insane amount of time trying to get him lynched so your whole "not trying to get AP lynched" as a scumtell is beyond absurd. It is like you are not even reading the thread but your analysis above shows that you have been which leaves the possibility that you are trying to connect me to one of your scumbuddies. Your complete non-responsiveness when I tell you to help me lynch AP shows that you are full of bullshit.

[CarbonFiber]

Then if AP is town, how do you figure that scum-me cared SO much about lynching Mastin and Rancid but suddenly stopped caring about lynching town-AP? It is not like my alignment could have changed midgame.

No, you are not being reasonable. You are hedging by pointing out towny and scummy posts so you can take whatever stance is convenient for you.

For example:

Believing with conviction that Rancid was scum isn't scummy. I truly believed that I was cc'ing him and we know now that I was right and that there aren't two millers in the game. The whole idea is a massive stretch and I don't buy it. Don't care if other people erroneously believed that there were two millers because AP once used them in a game of his.

[CarbonFiber]

Oh and early Day 3, but please do show me where you're trying to get him lynched there because I didn't see it.

PEdit: I'm not sure, but I think it's certainly possible that you lost steam, or didn't want to burn more towncred by strongly pushing another town lynch.

Conviction isn't scummy, but saying that you're happy being lynched/vig if he flips town is.

And why are you considering such an obscure possibility to be more likely than the really obvious one: That he got supposedly "cleared" by JSU and that I want to find his buddies first because he is a less viable lynch until a little later in the game?

[CarbonFiber]

VOTE: The Fox and The Hound

Confirmed scum.

[CarbonFiber]

Going over our back and forth will give you some of the reasoning but I can do a tl;dr summary as to why sometime later.

His spoilered posts are a good reason why he is town. Someone genuinely reading the thread doesn't post what he posted. If you are skimming, it is plausible to misunderstand but DV is implying he went through my ISO with a fine toothed comb so it makes no sense coming from town-him except by twisting the narrative to suit his purpose.

[CarbonFiber]

* why he is scum.

[CarbonFiber]

Also, people that are townreading Nacho are doing it wrong.

Seriously.

This is blatantly Nacho's scumgame. Nacho as town doesn't sit around doing nothing for the entire day and try to opportunistically push deadline lynches when the clock starts running out.

I think Nacho, AP, Fox, and Penguin are the scumteam. I am null on Magenta so they may be it if I am wrong on one of the four and I do have some slight paranoia about PV but I doubt it.

[CarbonFiber]

Penguin needs to get dunked in the water.

[CarbonFiber]

Like in this video: http://video.nationalgeographic.com/vid ... aining-lex

[CarbonFiber]

I don't get why you'd vote yourself though besides wanting everyone to think that you are frustrated town?

Falcon.

What about it?

Also, should we dunk Penguin in the water like a pair of killer whales? We'll leave Tammy in Seaworld obviously while we go about it.

[CarbonFiber]

Whenever I use your name as a sentence, it's a slap on the wrist.

It felt like you were implying I voted myself.

[CarbonFiber]

Whenever I use your name as a sentence, it's a slap on the wrist.

It felt like you were implying I voted myself.

I meant to imply that I was a nun and you were talking like Beli in Catholic school. Apologies for the confusion.

I didn't vote myself though. I still don't see the point you are trying to make. Apologies for missing it completely.

[CarbonFiber]

Penguin/Fox/Magenta... ran out of options here. NotScience? He looks pretty town though. PV? He used his role on the leading D1 wagon, why do that as scum?

[CarbonFiber]

also you and falcon should hydra for my mini theme and pre-in now
me and falcon hydra'ed for yours!

Falcon will you go out for me and do illicit substances in the mean time?

I swear I'm super fun!

I'll bring vodka.