Tales of You (Endgame)

[CarbonFiber]

Ffery, your reads are similar to mine but I think me, Nacho, and Titan are all super-obvtown.

[CarbonFiber]

And your scumpile is Mastin and AP? Why did we spend the entire game arguing with each other anyways?

[CarbonFiber]

TOWN (Strongest->Weakest)

:

1) Titan (Tammy + Ser Arthur Dayne)

- Titan is my strongest townread in the game and I actually think Tammy's distrust of our neighborhood and questioning BRO's meltdown is a

massive

towntell because it is not something she'd ever fake as scum or is capable of faking as scum at all. It's because I think she has a few similar tendencies to me as scum in that she'd feel incredibly guilty for questioning it and it is something she'd never do on purpose. Her read on Breakfast for viewing the gamestate similarly also occurred very organically and her asking me about my opinion on Nacho in 4418 and 4453 after hydra'ing with him as scum as well as her other interactions with me fits with the way I'd expect her to interact with me and also fits in with her "

find town to bounce thoughts off of

" philosophy that we've used in the past. It is the little things like wanting a second opinion about her recent townread on Nacho that I don't think she'd think to do as scum and the timing and context of it felt like it came off naturally. That's just out of the most recent posts. The earlier posts are incredibly town as well so overall, would throw my laptop out the window if she drew scum here. And I hate people for making me paranoid. Also, I'm chalking this up as a correct read and I'll keep my can-read-Tammy card if she flips town (she will) because I am at a point where it is

literally impossible

for me to see her being scum.

2) Yggdra Union (GIF + Pieguyn)

- This read is based off of Pieguyn's early posts after he immediately replaced in. The confidence in Post 2585 and the way in which he pursues his reads is impossible for Pie to fake as scum. I've played with Pie in two games before and read a bunch of his scum games and there is no way he is capable of faking genuine belief in his reads. Pie also isn't the type of player to lead lynches as scum or invest himself in the direction of the day's lynch as much as he did here. It heavily, heavily reflects NY169 where he showed many of the same tendencies. Other posts like 2603, and 2654 show the same level of unfakeable confidence and pursuit of suspects that a hallmark, unfakeable feature of Pie as town as does his pursuit of Mastin based on Mastin's reaction to BRO's meltdown. It is one thing to not be convinced by it (which is understandable), quite another to believe scum-Pie is actually capable of pursuing it the way he did (which is impossible for him to do because his scumgame lacks that depth and confidence and he is as good as scum).

3) Nachomamma8

- Nacho's push on Mastin felt incredibly town and very closely matches the way Nacho pursues his suspects when he is town. His later drunk posting and the way his emotions were showing through in Post 4855 isn't something Nacho would fake as scum. Not that he can't, but he

wouldn't

. This continues in the next three posts 4856, 4857, and 4859 where he launches an attack on Mastin for ignoring BRO's meltdown. The major difference I saw between his push on Sakura in NY169 and here was that he only used emotion to withdraw from the attack there whereas here, he used extremely deep emotions to launch an attack on Mastin and it goes against every bit of Nacho's scumplay that I am aware of. Reading those sequence of posts, I realize there is no way Nacho is in a scum QT talking about how brilliant his posts are because he wouldn't go to that level at all and Nacho isn't the type of player to marshall other hurt feelings to drive home a lynch as scum.

4) Just Sheep Us (Broseidon + Desperado)

- Their entrance into the game in Post 1145 mirrored a lot of my own feelings at the time because those were very similar to my reads at that point. BRO and Desp getting baited by RBD and going at it made a lot of sense from a town POV. I get that it happened around the time AP came in but I am not seeing it as very likely that BRO jumped into the game just so AP doesn't call him out. I also saw a lot of scumhunting from BRO feels like he is genuinely analyzing the game. For example, his differentiation between the core and the periphery of the game in Post 1500 and trying to figure things out from there. And then, there's the meltdown in Post 3020. I think most players are agreed that it was real regardless of his affiliation. I felt very townish to me because of why he had the meltdown. He says that RBD has been obvscum all game. He points his issues with Mastin. He talks about how Nacho saying he caused a carnival of lunacy got to him. Would he really be so upset at Nacho's words if he were scum? He'd be quite proud of it and gloating in the scum QT at causing a carnival of lunacy. He could be faking it of course which brings us back to whether he would "fake" an anxiety attack if he didn't actually have one. His pointing out Mastin's emotional harrassment of him and saying that Pie and I are his only allies also felt like it came from an incredibly genuine place.

5) Red Gyarados (Brian Skies + notscience)

- Brian's latest walls are incredibly well-thought out and his presentation closely matches what I expect from him as town. I liked his Post 4361 and the way he was townreading Pie matches up with my own reasoning and his explanation for the read going stale is what I expect from Brian considering he wasn't in the neighborhood and Pie's posting had faded out. I also really like that he picked up on the nuances of the weird interactions between MastinSSK and AP considering AP didn't. It was fairly obvious that I was talking about how odd it was that AP consistently defends MastinSSK despite the latter push on him which AP had oversimplified to "why should I suspect him just because he suspects me?" I also really like Brian's follow-up in Post 4489 and his reasoning for townreading me and PV resonates and is exactly the way I'd expect Brian to go about trying to get a read on me. His points about my meta-dive on him were things he brought up as town before and the overall level of effort and attention to detail is what I expect from Brian as town and I haven't seen them as much in his scumgames. This re-inforces my very early read on NotScience and I felt that the way he wanted to run up Titan to gauge their affiliation felt extremely genuine so putting both heads together, I am confident RG is town.

6) Breakfast With Stalin (Ffery + Beli)

- Their latest reads-list in Post 4950 and view of the gamestate aligns strongly with mine and I feel that we are about as in-sync as we

can

be given our playstyle differences. I felt the paranoia of Titan was somewhat odd but makes sense with what I'd expect out of Ffery and the one time I talked to Beli, he felt natural and unforced in his reads. I am not bet-my-laptop-on-it confident because of their positioning with regard to Mastin/Rancid/AP during D1 and lack of their help or vote on any of those wagons felt odd. However, it is still something I can see coming from Ffery considering the nature of her relationship with Natirasha. It is something I'll come back to when Rancid's affiliation is known BUT I'd be pretty surprised overall if they are scum here and the latest list of reads erased most of my frustration with them as to their complete lack of scumreads and oddly structured reads lists. I'd bet the game on my top five reads being town. I could maybe let Tammy's Breakfast read influence me and make it top six but I feel it'll be more apparent once I see some flips.

7) The Fox and the Hound (cephrir + DV)

- I walled about DeasVail in Post 1689 about how he is playing to his town meta. I like the way their suspicion on Rancid built up and I like the ostentatiousness of their vote. It matches up with what I expect DeasVail to do as town. Since then nothing about their posts gave me cause for alarm and I really liked that Ceph and DV decided to go back and read through everyone's ISO's again after they winded up with a lack of scumreads. The way they went through everyone and landed back with similar suspects resonates a lot and I agree with most of the reads they presented in Post 4947. I liked most of what DV posted and while the way Cephrir presents his posts make me paranoid, I've learned not to read too much into it.

8) PeregrineV

- I walled about PV in Post 3003. Important points are that the way he tracked down my read on Cupcake, enquired about it, and followed up on it felt very genuine and I liked most of his interactions with me. He doesn't come off well regarding his back-and-forth with Tammy because I disagree with his push and the points he made about her old meta. BUT, him asking me what I thought and making me explain my read on Titan felt incredibly town because it felt like he genuinely believed what he was saying about her and wanted me (as a strong townread of his) to discuss the read and explain my side. Him backing off because I have a strong townread on Titan also felt genuine and I'd be more suspicious if there was a hint of subtlety in there but it felt very blatant and transparent overall.

9) Cupcake Panda

- I explained this to PV in 1804. Nothing I've seen so far has made me doubt this read. What I didn't mention in it was a reference to Wicked mafia, a recent game I played with Katsuki as town. In it, the way he persued reads and his initial suspicion of players were very against the grain and independent. This sharply contrasts with the way he plays as scum where he either goes with the flow or predicts the flow and Anything Goes and Death Note are great games for reference. There were a couple of minor things that pinged where I felt he was going with the flow but overall, I am just not seeing the opportunistic manipulation and outguessing the town that Katsuki is well-equipped to do and often does as scum.

10) MagentaTheGreat (Orcinus + Mara)

- I'm not sure what to think of recent Mara posts asking for my read on Clyton of all people and the whole "

giving a summary to a replacement

" scumtell. I guess I can buy that she genuinely believes in it. I have 0% accuracy in reading Mara defending her hard when she was scum and accusing her when she was town. Orc's posts felt town. His role felt town. And as long as Orc posts more, it should help me solidify a read there. But if I am wrong about a townread somewhere and Penguin is town, it is either here or amongst the last few townreads above.

11) Penguin_Alien

- I'll give Penguin a fresh start and see what she comes with as I feel I know her well enough to read her. I don't feel that any of Clyton's posts made any sense overall and I was trying to figure out if it was based on playstyle or affiliation. I also think role-wise a bodyguard + watcher is rather OP but I'll wait to see what Penguin says and read her off of her play.

Scum (Strongest->Weakest)

:

12) MastinSSK (Mastin2 + MafiaSSK)

- I didn't like Mastin's initial attack on me and the way he went about it. Post 548 in particular felt incredibly manipulative and felt like he was agreeing with points that didn't make a lot of sense at all. For instance, agreeing with Rancid when they said "

this post, it blows

" in response to my analysis on Mac. The way he attacked Ceph also felt like he didn't really give Ceph a lot to refute which is sort of convenient because I felt the same way when he pointed out posts in a way that was mostly insubstantial and irrefutable. His points about me "raging" also felt like a disconnect from reality. His play towards the end of D1 was also scummy and I especially didn't like his portrayal of my play as bad. I didn't like the attack on Ceph saying that Ceph looked at him as a mislynch - Beli explains this in detail and I agree with it. I felt that his attack on Ffery D2 could be an attempt to manipulate people who had a growing frustration with Breakfast hoping that it would resonate with them. Overall, I feel like everyone is suspecting Mastin for the way he attacked them and interacted with them, and for my part, I certainly feel that his interactions with me were scummy and manipulative.

13) AngryPidgeon

- Mostly went over this in my back-and-forth with AP. I didn't like his interactions with MastinSSK. I didn't feel like his suspicion of me came from a genuine place. I don't like him interjecting himself into me and Tammy discussing the neighborhood last night to make himself look good with "reasonable" looking posts like "

this is all you were saying, weren't you?

" It feels like scum manipulating the gamestate to try and gain an advantage. I also feel like he is fishing for things to make look suspicious as opposed to genuinely trying to understand motivations and figure things out.

[CarbonFiber]

I feel like I should have a stronger read here if he's town

This bugs me. I feel like you copied Tammy's reasoning. She has reason to feel that way about me but why would you?

[CarbonFiber]

I feel like I should have a stronger read here if he's town

This bugs me. I feel like you copied Tammy's reasoning. She has reason to feel that way about me but why would you?

I can go into more detail when I get home. I feel like we've played enough games together now that by mid day 2 I should feel pretty confident you're town. I also feel your read of me has been hedgy. your recent reads list doesn't alleviate that. what flips would solidify your read on me and why?

I think you are unlikely to be scum with Mastin. I'll have to think about Rancid. You derailed their lynch but the way they were appealing to you constantly and you sending them hugs feels like you are unlikely to be scum with them either and it'll help clear my mind.

The one time you had to read me, you struggled to get a read although had me as leaning town so I don't know if you expected the same results or better.

Your read on me is one thing that bugs me about you because I feel like I've been quite obviously town. For example, leading a wagon on Rancid and putting this much effort into collaborating with the town. I'm also the most obviously town player from our neighborhood. I am not sure why you'd expect to be read as obviously town when you haven't been. Most of it D1 has been me and Pie leading the game and later Nacho and D2 has been entirely me, you and Tammy trying to get on the same page and figuring out where to go from there and Nacho's latest posts pushing everyone towards a Mastin lynch. You are aware that your meta falls under different categories and some are easier to read as town than others. For example, AA: MFA when you led the lynch on Brian, you were fairly obviously town. I've meta'd you enough that I can catch all of your towngames but I don't know why you wouldn't want me to be certain in a game where you are not obvtown.

Your hesitation in reading me is one of the things that make me hesitate in reading you as top-tier town which is weird because you are hesitating on me because of

my

read on you.

[CarbonFiber]

@ Cephrir

,

1) What's alarming? The post you quoted or the Mastin's narrative?

2) Are you questioning your townread on Yggdra? Or just saying that they are town but not as obvtown to you as they are to me?

3) So, you understood why I accused Mastin and AP of bussing. But you want to know when I did this? On D1 after their back-and-forth. Your posts are a little difficult to parse because I am not sure what your positions are i.e. you say you agree with something but also disagree.

4) Regarding AP townreading Mastin, I explain it in my list of reads. Brian caught it as well. It is that I thought their interactions are weird.

5) "

It would be easier to take this at face value if it weren't about yourself.

" - Not sure what you are trying to say here. I scumhunt attacks on me just like I scumhunt attacks on others. I think in general, it is easier for people to talk about attacks on themselves but it doesn't make it any less valid.

[CarbonFiber]

It's pathetically easy. Stay out of the spotlight. Keep townblocs from forming, and induce paranoia in them. For instance, if players are absolutely convinced that they have a townbloc, just with a Thor in it (oh gods, I'm actually using that)...emphasize the need to find the Thor, which induces enough paranoia to break the townbloc into smithereens. Keep the town divided into camps, and have scum on both sides of the camp. Keep cards spread out, so that when necessary, you can chose to stack the deck.

To your credit, you haven't been doing it although AP has been with the way he intercepted Titan/CF conversation.

---

I'm wondering if it makes sense to just lynch AP first. If Mastin is bussing, we'll help him bus. If he's town, then good.

[CarbonFiber]

I'm busy today so I don't have much time, but...

Mastin - when I say that it will clear up the distraction, I don't mean the amount of posting you're doing. I've been doing enough posting of my own, but you're posting doesn't really help to clear up your alignment. And the distraction is the fact that you are a central focus of concern in this game. You are what a lot of people are focused on. I don't see that changing at all.

When I said you were a craftier scum player than me it didn't mean that I thought you just couldn't be scum here if you were getting run up, it was referring to the conviction. I would have a hard time conveying that much conviction that I'm town if I were scum but I think that you are craftier that me in that regard so it's not as strong a town tell in your case.

Regarding the neighborhood and why des frustrated me so much last night. Apparently they're towning it up in the neighborhood and raising concerns there but not doing anything here and we're all just supposed to buy they're town from it. I think neighborhoods are wonderful and can really help people get reads on each other, but when you are in a neighborhood, you can focus on manipulating those people in the neighborhood. Your "mist" can be directed in a way it can't in the game thread because you're focusing on manipulating just a small set of people and when you're not posting in the thread it raises alarms. IF they're keeping up with the game, even if it's just to say that they're falling behind, why not post in the game too? Why stay in hiding. I can't see the obvtown towniness being displayed in the neighborhood and when it's not in the game thread too I'm not going to just buy it. You can get awesome reads in the neighborhood. In NY146, I realized that MOI was trying to manipulate me in the neighborhood in a way that pushed me towards the proper decision in lylo. Without that neighborhood and seeing his behavior in that context, I might have gotten it wrong. In The Wire, I was able to get a good town read on DV based on the way he claimed to us, and we made a pretty decent town case on him that unfortunately wasn't followed after we died, but DV was also posting in the game so we weren't like "take our words he's town". Incidentally I also claimed pretty early in that neighborhood even though I wasn't convinced of either DV or Kuribo being town at the time. /

And here, the inactivity in my neighborhood was matched by inactivity in the game thread. Neither of us are keeping things out of thread while being active in the neighborhood. Penguin and I have talked a little bit more since she replaced in but it's mostly been me giving her an update of the game and asking her to read a couple people and tell me what she thinks, and she's a bit paranoid (or acting paranoid >_>) because this is her fourth neighborhood this year and in each one of her neighborhoods there's been scum who've been able to manipulate her in that way. And in this one both falcon and nacho should understand where I'm coming from that people can manipulate people in neighborhoods, not only from Viscon but from Wicked as well as both nacho and falcon were able to manipulate people in the neighborhood and then that was used as a means of getting them town read by people who were suspicious of them beforehand.

I UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM TAMMY!

[CarbonFiber]

That's a big huge improvement over Clyton at least and I love that post.

Penguin, read my ISO as well. There's a lot of nice stuff in there and if we can solidify reads on each other, that would be a huge step towards solving the game.

[CarbonFiber]

Also, the one thing I most wish we could do right now is to take both of you and Tammy and conjoin both of our neighborhoods together so we can all be one big happy neighborhood but I am just dreaming.

AngryPidgeon: Look at that buddying!

[CarbonFiber]

Spoiler: Breakfast With Stalin

I feel like I should have a stronger read here if he's town

This bugs me. I feel like you copied Tammy's reasoning. She has reason to feel that way about me but why would you?

I can go into more detail when I get home. I feel like we've played enough games together now that by mid day 2 I should feel pretty confident you're town. I also feel your read of me has been hedgy. your recent reads list doesn't alleviate that. what flips would solidify your read on me and why?

I think you are unlikely to be scum with Mastin. I'll have to think about Rancid. You derailed their lynch but the way they were appealing to you constantly and you sending them hugs feels like you are unlikely to be scum with them either and it'll help clear my mind.

What will clear your mind? Rancid's flip? Why are you expecting that flip before end of game? Do you think someone has the info about their alignment?

The one time you had to read me, you struggled to get a read although had me as leaning town so I don't know if you expected the same results or better.

Valid or not, my assumption is that reads are more easily formed with greater exposure to someone's play. And I feel like I"m reaching a point where I should have a pretty strong opinion by the end of day 1.

And in fact I did have a strong opinion by the end of day 1. But from your stances and questions it apparently isn't mutual. And I don't understand why. So the lack of mutuality is troubling and I wonder if my strong opinion was premature.

Your read on me is one thing that bugs me about you because I feel like I've been quite obviously town.

So do I. I feel like anyone who actually understands what differentiates my town game from my scum game should have no trouble reading me this game. And I thought that you had such an understanding because if anyone on this site has troubled to meta me you have. Nacho, too, but with him it's mostly experiential meta and the occasional follow-along of a game he isn't playing.

For example, leading a wagon on Rancid and putting this much effort into collaborating with the town. I'm also the most obviously town player from our neighborhood.

Your Rancid wagon did no favors with me. Putting this much effort in has been somewhat targeted and tactical, and I think you would do that no matter what your alignment. I think the way you have gone about it looks town, but not god-tier town which you keep insisting you've reached.

I am not sure why you'd expect to be read as obviously town when you haven't been.

Because you expect me to see you as obviously town. You're not the final judge of your towniness. And you haven't gotten over yourself. you're still expecting me to just...change my read.

I was completely taken aback that some players, including you and Bro, didn't have me solidly town but I'm dealing with it. I'm not haranguing you for not townreading me.

It's like you think you can bludgeon people into townreading you. Maybe that works sometimes with some players. All it does is get my back up.

Most of it D1 has been me and Pie leading the game and later Nacho

That's your opinion. I felt like whether the effect was good or ill, I was a large factor in how day 1 resolved, particularly that it didn't end with Rancid's lynch.

and D2 has been entirely me, you and Tammy trying to get on the same page

No it hasn't. There has been a lot of other stuff going on.

and figuring out where to go from there and Nacho's latest posts pushing everyone towards a Mastin lynch.

But this is key and will probably determine how this game day ends.

You are aware that your meta falls under different categories and some are easier to read as town than others. For example, AA: MFA when you led the lynch on Brian, you were fairly obviously town. I've meta'd you enough that I can catch all of your towngames but I don't know why you wouldn't want me to be certain in a game where you are not obvtown.

I don't care that you aren't certain. I care that you've been undermining me and raising suspicions about me all of day 2 and I really think you ought to take a look at the company you're keeping.

I looked lynchable at least at one point this game day. I'm really surprised there wasn't a stronger push than there was. But some consideration of who took advantage of that, who distanced, and how that impacted other nascent wagons wouldn't be a bad thing no matter what my alignment.

Your hesitation in reading me is one of the things that make me hesitate in reading you as top-tier town which is weird because you are hesitating on me because of

my

read on you.

Aside from "omgwtf you don't have any scumreads" you've done precious little aside from try to get me to vote with you.

I'll respond to this in points:

1) I don't know if Rancid will flip before the end of the game. But I hope they will and I think they will. It would be a bit scum-sided to not let us know if we are in LYLO (I think it happened in a Bork game before though) or to hide their flip for good. I wonder if whoever killed them knows about it, or if there is a role that can access the flips (CSI agent? I definitely played games offsite with roles that can find out janitored flips), or as Nacho put forth, that the role is a scum role revealed upon Mastin's flip. I don't know how but I hope in some way, we find out.

2) Why I didn't have a strong opinion that you are town: for one, your defense of RBD and calling both of us town-town felt off. I counterclaimed them and was leading a lynch on them which sort of ticked me off. Your reads didn't make sense until I saw your latest one which aligns with my thoughts pretty closely and makes me feel a lot better. When you wonder if your strong opinion was premature, you are basically saying that I should townread you or you will re-evaluate which you said isn't what you are doing.

3) I think you are town but not 100% obvtown. That's what I gather from all the meta I have on you. I have you as borderline "will bank the game on you town" vs "weaker townread" and you are pretty much in the middle. So, you are nowhere close to being a "null" read or someone I can't get a read on (or borderline between town/scum like Clyton was). My read on you wasn't this strong before your posted your latest reads-list which actually helped me see your stances a lot more clearly. Your read on me was pretty much the only thing that bugged me.

4) I don't lead lynches as scum in the manner in which I pushed Rancid. I don't because it doesn't serve my wincon when I am scum. You don't either. You know that that is a difference in your town and scum play and you don't try to fix it because burning your town meta to the ground and playing exactly like you would as town might hinder a scum agenda. I think you said it after that newbie game that I watched where you fooled Cabd. Anyways, if I were scum, I probably wouldn't have flipped out at Nacho for derailing the Rancid lynch and those are the kind of things I can't fake even if I am fully aware of them.

5) I disagree that you were as large a factor in how D1 resolved as much as me or Pie (Nacho derailed the Rancid lynch) but I am not saying that makes you scum. I'm saying if you had been, then I'd have read you as obvtown without reservations. As of now, I read you as just town.

6) I disagree that I've been undermining you in any way. In fact, I felt that you have been. I recall you saying something like "F-16 is bitching about a compromise lynch" on D1, I can go find the quote if you want. I also recall you in general undermining my reads. I'm trying to work through all that and still see that you could do it as town but it is been a frustrating endeavor that I needed to get through when you make posts like that.

7) I've done a lot to get you to vote Mastin or Rancid yesterday. I pulled every card in the book and tried to snag those votes and I rarely tunnel as hard as I did. If it wasn't the reigning Don Corleone of the site that I was tunneling, I feel pretty sure, I'd have gotten them lynched D1. I only stepped back D2 because I wanted to get on the same page as everyone else and help build a more cohesive town and bounce thoughts off of other players which I have been doing with you, Tammy, Brian, PV, and in the neighborhood with Pie, Desp, and Nacho.

[CarbonFiber]

Mastin, chill out. I don't think Pie meant to say you were being unethical in any way. I can buy that you genuinely feel that way although I don't see it as alignment indicative.

[CarbonFiber]

Spoiler: Breakfast With Stalin

I feel like I should have a stronger read here if he's town

This bugs me. I feel like you copied Tammy's reasoning. She has reason to feel that way about me but why would you?

I can go into more detail when I get home. I feel like we've played enough games together now that by mid day 2 I should feel pretty confident you're town. I also feel your read of me has been hedgy. your recent reads list doesn't alleviate that. what flips would solidify your read on me and why?

I think you are unlikely to be scum with Mastin. I'll have to think about Rancid. You derailed their lynch but the way they were appealing to you constantly and you sending them hugs feels like you are unlikely to be scum with them either and it'll help clear my mind.

What will clear your mind? Rancid's flip? Why are you expecting that flip before end of game? Do you think someone has the info about their alignment?

The one time you had to read me, you struggled to get a read although had me as leaning town so I don't know if you expected the same results or better.

Valid or not, my assumption is that reads are more easily formed with greater exposure to someone's play. And I feel like I"m reaching a point where I should have a pretty strong opinion by the end of day 1.

And in fact I did have a strong opinion by the end of day 1. But from your stances and questions it apparently isn't mutual. And I don't understand why. So the lack of mutuality is troubling and I wonder if my strong opinion was premature.

Your read on me is one thing that bugs me about you because I feel like I've been quite obviously town.

So do I. I feel like anyone who actually understands what differentiates my town game from my scum game should have no trouble reading me this game. And I thought that you had such an understanding because if anyone on this site has troubled to meta me you have. Nacho, too, but with him it's mostly experiential meta and the occasional follow-along of a game he isn't playing.

For example, leading a wagon on Rancid and putting this much effort into collaborating with the town. I'm also the most obviously town player from our neighborhood.

Your Rancid wagon did no favors with me. Putting this much effort in has been somewhat targeted and tactical, and I think you would do that no matter what your alignment. I think the way you have gone about it looks town, but not god-tier town which you keep insisting you've reached.

I am not sure why you'd expect to be read as obviously town when you haven't been.

Because you expect me to see you as obviously town. You're not the final judge of your towniness. And you haven't gotten over yourself. you're still expecting me to just...change my read.

I was completely taken aback that some players, including you and Bro, didn't have me solidly town but I'm dealing with it. I'm not haranguing you for not townreading me.

It's like you think you can bludgeon people into townreading you. Maybe that works sometimes with some players. All it does is get my back up.

Most of it D1 has been me and Pie leading the game and later Nacho

That's your opinion. I felt like whether the effect was good or ill, I was a large factor in how day 1 resolved, particularly that it didn't end with Rancid's lynch.

and D2 has been entirely me, you and Tammy trying to get on the same page

No it hasn't. There has been a lot of other stuff going on.

and figuring out where to go from there and Nacho's latest posts pushing everyone towards a Mastin lynch.

But this is key and will probably determine how this game day ends.

You are aware that your meta falls under different categories and some are easier to read as town than others. For example, AA: MFA when you led the lynch on Brian, you were fairly obviously town. I've meta'd you enough that I can catch all of your towngames but I don't know why you wouldn't want me to be certain in a game where you are not obvtown.

I don't care that you aren't certain. I care that you've been undermining me and raising suspicions about me all of day 2 and I really think you ought to take a look at the company you're keeping.

I looked lynchable at least at one point this game day. I'm really surprised there wasn't a stronger push than there was. But some consideration of who took advantage of that, who distanced, and how that impacted other nascent wagons wouldn't be a bad thing no matter what my alignment.

Your hesitation in reading me is one of the things that make me hesitate in reading you as top-tier town which is weird because you are hesitating on me because of

my

read on you.

Aside from "omgwtf you don't have any scumreads" you've done precious little aside from try to get me to vote with you.

I'll respond to this in points:

1) I don't know if Rancid will flip before the end of the game. But I hope they will and I think they will. It would be a bit scum-sided to not let us know if we are in LYLO (I think it happened in a Bork game before though) or to hide their flip for good. I wonder if whoever killed them knows about it, or if there is a role that can access the flips (CSI agent? I definitely played games offsite with roles that can find out janitored flips), or as Nacho put forth, that the role is a scum role revealed upon Mastin's flip. I don't know how but I hope in some way, we find out.

2) Why I didn't have a strong opinion that you are town: for one, your defense of RBD and calling both of us town-town felt off. I counterclaimed them and was leading a lynch on them which sort of ticked me off. Your reads didn't make sense until I saw your latest one which aligns with my thoughts pretty closely and makes me feel a lot better. When you wonder if your strong opinion was premature, you are basically saying that I should townread you or you will re-evaluate which you said isn't what you are doing.

3) I think you are town but not 100% obvtown. That's what I gather from all the meta I have on you. I have you as borderline "will bank the game on you town" vs "weaker townread" and you are pretty much in the middle. So, you are nowhere close to being a "null" read or someone I can't get a read on (or borderline between town/scum like Clyton was). My read on you wasn't this strong before your posted your latest reads-list which actually helped me see your stances a lot more clearly. Your read on me was pretty much the only thing that bugged me.

4) I don't lead lynches as scum in the manner in which I pushed Rancid. I don't because it doesn't serve my wincon when I am scum. You don't either. You know that that is a difference in your town and scum play and you don't try to fix it because burning your town meta to the ground and playing exactly like you would as town might hinder a scum agenda. I think you said it after that newbie game that I watched where you fooled Cabd. Anyways, if I were scum, I probably wouldn't have flipped out at Nacho for derailing the Rancid lynch and those are the kind of things I can't fake even if I am fully aware of them.

5) I disagree that you were as large a factor in how D1 resolved as much as me or Pie (Nacho derailed the Rancid lynch) but I am not saying that makes you scum. I'm saying if you had been, then I'd have read you as obvtown without reservations. As of now, I read you as just town.

6) I disagree that I've been undermining you in any way. In fact, I felt that you have been. I recall you saying something like "F-16 is bitching about a compromise lynch" on D1, I can go find the quote if you want. I also recall you in general undermining my reads. I'm trying to work through all that and still see that you could do it as town but it is been a frustrating endeavor that I needed to get through when you make posts like that.

7) I've done a lot to get you to vote Mastin or Rancid yesterday. I pulled every card in the book and tried to snag those votes and I rarely tunnel as hard as I did. If it wasn't the reigning Don Corleone of the site that I was tunneling, I feel pretty sure, I'd have gotten them lynched D1. I only stepped back D2 because I wanted to get on the same page as everyone else and help build a more cohesive town and bounce thoughts off of other players which I have been doing with you, Tammy, Brian, PV, and in the neighborhood with Pie, Desp, and Nacho.

Edit: I misinterpreted the last point. I thought you were saying that I wasn't trying hard enough to get your vote on my scumreads but it turns out you are saying I am trying too hard which isn't a bad thing. But you say it is to the exclusion of everything else which isn't true. I probably spent more time delivering productive content into the thread, providing reads, questioning players, mediating, maybe leading lynches on scum (we'll have to see after Rancid flips), and most of all collaborating with other players and bouncing thoughts off of them so I disagree with almost everything you are saying.

[CarbonFiber]

I agree that people form better reads through interactions and I actually value it. I generally mediate disputes only if I feel it has gotten out of hand or counterproductive or if someone asks my opinion on the player they are interacting with barring one or two exceptions. That's when I think it is best.

I am not trying to "bludgeon you" into agreeing with me. No idea where you get that from. I felt like you were trying to undermine my efforts D1 in securing a lynch. For instance, with the "bitching about compromise lynches" line instead of telling me that you disagree with a Rancid lynch but would compromise on Mastin so let's work together on securing that lynch instead of just letting the wagon build up and then voting anyone and everyone to save Rancid. I get that you gave reasons for it that I can see coming from town and that's partly why I am reading you as town but I feel like it could have been better and that's why I wasn't as sure of you being town.

[CarbonFiber]

@ Ffery, regarding AP or Mastin lynch, I am still divided. Mastin is the stronger scumread but I can't see AP-town, Mastin-scum at all. It just doesn't make any sort of sense. But, I also want to follow Penguin even though she just joined in because she is certain about Mastin being scum. I see Pieguy's certainty about Mastin being scum. I see BRO's meltdown yelling that Mastin is scum from amongst all that. I see Nacho's certainty that Mastin is scum. I feel like this should happen and I don't want to disrupt what is a great wagon that has taken days and weeks of effort and collaboration from the town to form. I don't know. If I feel confident that I could divert all the votes to AP and assure his lynch without risking a good wagon falling apart, I'd do it. I'd rather not. What are you thinking?

@ Penguin, looking forward to hearing your case. I'd also like to see where you are at with the rest of your reads. Have you and Tammy discussed BRO's meltdown post yet? I was hoping to hear your thoughts on that too whenever you are caught up and get around to it.

[CarbonFiber]

Last I heard in the neighborhood, yeah. But I don't know how certain he is considering he said during that wall that he hesitates on scumreading people he likes that may have screwed up his AP read. I'll ask him for an updated read.

[CarbonFiber]

We have also passed 200 pages. Can we lynch someone before we hit 300?

I'm thinking we should lynch Mastin.

[CarbonFiber]

Just remembered why I wanted Mastin lynched that I forgot to add in earlier:

His reads changes are opportunistic as hell on a couple of levels:

1) It feels like he is trying too hard not to have "static" reads and is switching them around like crazy to feel as if they are changing.

2) The changes themselves feel opportunistic. He pushes PV but drops that suspicion when massive resistance occurs. He pushed Fox/Hound but switched after Beli gave him a load of crap for it. He pushed Ffery when some players were growing increasingly frustrated with trying to interact with her notably desp/pv/maybe me.

3) RG read actually doesn't make a ton of sense either since they were sitting on the Nacho wagon for a while and it doesn't look like scum v scum at all.

[CarbonFiber]

Also, @ ffery, I feel like he is a bigger threat than AP if they are scumpartners.

[CarbonFiber]

Also, @ ffery, I feel like he is a bigger threat than AP if they are scumpartners.

I want to see what beli thinks when he catches up with the weekend's worth of posting. He and I have flipped positions in terms of willingness to lynch Mastin, but I think the differences are pretty mild. I know he'd compromise on AP as of a couple of days ago.

I think the lynch is basically sealed, though.

So, you are saying you are the one that wants to lynch Mastin and Beli thinks he could be town?

[CarbonFiber]

@ Penguin, looking forward to hearing your case. I'd also like to see where you are at with the rest of your reads. Have you and Tammy discussed BRO's meltdown post yet? I was hoping to hear your thoughts on that too whenever you are caught up and get around to it.

Saw this in preview when posting my (partial) mastin thoughts. It's 3 AM, so this won't be comprehensive. Tammy and I haven't discussed it yet, except that she wants my read on BRO.

I'll say straight up that based on everything I know about BRO via playing Mafia with him here and offsite and hydraing, there's no way he fakes that. If (and that's a big if from reading 3020) he's scum, he's still genuinely upset at the way mastin is going after him. I will say that from my experience with scum-mastin, she can go after teammates in very unproductive ways (see: Open 541, where we almost blew LyLo because mastin thought it would be a good idea to push Mhork while ignoring all the planning in the scum QT).

HOWEVER.

Much as I know BRO shakes up his scum game and makes some strange plays as either alignment, this doesn't feel insincere at all, or to be more precise, coming from anything other than frustrated town. To be honest, I almost feel like just snipping this post out of my mental calculations, because it feels way intrusive for the game to have put him in a situation where he felt that he needed to share it. I won't, because it also feels wrong to disregard his forthrightness.

I'm sorry, there are some things in his ISO that I noticed while skimming for the 'meltdown' post (although I'm not really comfortable calling it a meltdown; heaven knows as someone who's dealt with issues that were hard to discuss I know exactly how painful it is to reveal that stuff, and calling it a meltdown feels condescending, to be frank) that made me think he could be scum and some things that made me think town. My very brief overall impression is that BRO came into the game excited about the player list and anticipating a fun game. There's some banter-type stuff that feels alignment-independent and so in my paranoia might make me think scum-BRO. But as he keeps posting, there's super-genuine sounding posts AND, more importantly, posts that read like the insightful BRO I'm used to watching work in-hydra when I darn well know his alignment.

I'm on the verge of conking out, but hopefully that gives you an idea of where I am. I may not be good at reading BRO as a mafia player, but I'd like to think I have a sense of his personality well enough that I know him hitting a limit wasn't staged. Maybe I'm presuming too much, given that we're more Mafia friends than 'dish about life' friends, but that's how my brain works. I'll read the other 300+ posts from the JSU hydra after I get some sleep and try to get a sense of their alignment here.

Because, F-16, as much as I respect your play and would like to work with you if you're town here, if we hadn't misread BRO in Wicked I'd have neighborized him over you-Ghatokaca in a heartbeat, and I know town-BRO can game-solve like a maniac.

P-edit: I'm sorry, I can't react to everything that's elapsed since I started writing this up...tomorrow.

Okay. Well, yeah I was reading BRO as strongly town too so glad to see you agree with that as well.

[CarbonFiber]

I was eagerly waiting for the day to start.

First off, sorry Mastin and Rancid if you are watching from the dead thread. My read on both of you guys was absolute crap. I know you probably hate me but I'll do the best to make it up to you and I want you to be able to chalk up another win. Mastin especially. You did everything you could. You left no stone unturned in trying to communicate with the town. More at endgame.

I have a few thoughts but I want answers to the following questions first:

AngryPidgeon, who did you investigate today and what were your results?

Penguin_Alien, we need to talk. It'll be awesome if you can provide your reads and catchup with the game. I want to hear your updated reads on everyone in the game, especially AP.

Tammy, why did you hammer AP so quickly when there were still a couple of days to deadline. It seems unlike you to vote before utilizing every second of the deadline clock. You waffled and waffled and waffled on Mastin and when he was brought to L-1, you checked with Breakfast, wanted the hammer, and hammered instantly. I want to see where you are coming from here.

[CarbonFiber]

Never mind AP.

As for the neighborhoods, I kinda want everyone to claim their title before figuring out which one to activate.

[CarbonFiber]

* Tammy, I meant hammer Mastin obviously.

[CarbonFiber]

Also, I strongly suspect Nacho to be scum.

Pie and I talked a lot in the neighborhood. We discussed reads, commiserated about our horribad reads on Mastin and Rancid, bounced thoughts off of each other about all living players and made some progress on solving the game. I even told Pie it was like having a faux-hydra partner as long as FourTrouble had been checked out. Speaking of which, he says he will be back soon now that his finals are over.

I suspect that someone in the neighborhood knew this and wanted to eliminate Pie because he was so useful to the town. And that someone I strongly believe is Nacho.

I asked Nacho for his reads and he sort of ignored me while responding to other non game relevant stuff (me apologizing to him for bringing up Touhou as well as venting at him) but he didn't respond to my questions about reads.

Speaking of which, ffery, you were right about Rancid all along! I should have listened to you on them.

[CarbonFiber]

It's nice to know my one and only certain town read is town, and not dead so thank iomedae for that!

So, you guys gonna come out of the neighborhood now and stop circle jerking about how right you are. I still feel like there's scum in that neighborhood.

Penguins pretty much going to bat for bro being town, depending on how he plays it today I guess, but she's talking me down fro
M my des/bro bloodthirst so it's up t you boys. Do something!

VOTE: carbon fiber

I'll answer you when I'm at my computer.

WHat the fuck tammy!

[CarbonFiber]

TAMMY IS CLAIMING SCUM.

[CarbonFiber]

I KNEW IT. YOU WERE SETTING ME UP WITH MASTIN BEIONG TIWN OI CANT PTYUEPOE ATGF AT FTYPE PROPERLYT

[CarbonFiber]

Fuck you tammy, fcuky you fuck you fuck you fuck you

[CarbonFiber]

I should have listened to Muffin and Nati when they said you were scujm.

I am so sorry mudffin, I deserve what's coming to me though

[CarbonFiber]

I KNEW YOU WERE SCUM AND I WAS TELLING EVERYONE IN THGE NEUIGHTBORHOOS ABOYUT UT

I told Nacho he was scum with yo.

[CarbonFiber]

She just gave me a heart attack. I can't tye rught noe,. I need to go use the restroom. I'll calm down and talk aboyt ut more in a little bnit

[CarbonFiber]

Tammy, your vote on me is absolute bullshit


I can't fucking type anything.

[CarbonFiber]

I want to explain why Titan is scum but I don;t hgave it in me. I can't do it. I thought I coulsd calm down in a bit but my heart is racing. I am in a computer lab right now eagerly awaitun for the game to start.

I talked in the neighborhood about how I thought the scum was PA/AP/NAcho/Tammy.

I told Nacho to bring it. I told him to tell Tammy in the scum QT to attack me (As a jkoke). I did not expect that at all. I reeally didn't

I messed shit up this game so badly. I let TAmy set me up forgfettng lynched after pushing so hard on Mastin and Rancid.

Mffin is probably laighing in the scum QT.

Nati as well. They warned me over and over not to collaborate with Tammy so mucj,.

I just went to restroom and tried to calm down and think of all the things why I thought Titan was scum but my mingf id blank I can't thing ruight now.

[CarbonFiber]

SCREW YOU TAMMY. YOU ACTUALLY THINK I AM SCUM IN THIS GAME?

[CarbonFiber]

I want to explain why Titan is scum but I don;t hgave it in me. I can't do it. I thought I coulsd calm down in a bit but my heart is racing. I am in a computer lab right now eagerly awaitun for the game to start.

I talked in the neighborhood about how I thought the scum was PA/AP/NAcho/Tammy.

I told Nacho to bring it. I told him to tell Tammy in the scum QT to attack me (As a jkoke). I did not expect that at all. I reeally didn't

I messed shit up this game so badly. I let TAmy set me up forgfettng lynched after pushing so hard on Mastin and Rancid.

Mffin is probably laighing in the scum QT.

Nati as well. They warned me over and over not to collaborate with Tammy so mucj,.

I just went to restroom and tried to calm down and think of all the things why I thought Titan was scum but my mingf id blank I can't thing ruight now.

This is fucking bullshit. On the off chance you're town and actually think there's a snails chance I'm scum, you should give up playing mafia.

Can you read the neighborhood topics you set up?

BULLSHIT. THAT's YOUR REACTION. I WAS DAMN NEAR BREAKING DOWN ABOUT THIS AND YOU JUST TOLD ME THAT I WAS BULLSHITTING. THERE IS NO FUCKING WAY YOU ARE TOWN.

[CarbonFiber]

JUST FUCK OFF> QUICKLYNCH ME NOW. I CANT BEAR THIS FOR FOURTEEN DAYS.

[CarbonFiber]

Tammy why did you vote CF?

Because he started setting me up fr the hammer in his first post f the day.

Holy crap, you actually believe this? You actually think that I'd set you up - you who is unlynchable when town. DO you think I am a fucking MORON.

[CarbonFiber]

Why'd you start setting me up for the hammer in your first post?

I didn't set you up. I asked you about it. I asked you why you hammered. It seemed odd to me.

This entire game, you were fucking with me. Everytime I ask you a question, you yell at me and tell me I'm not seeing where you are coming from. You've been making shit pushes all game. JSU? PV? Like what the actual fuck? They are town, town, town, town, town, and there is no way you can't see it unless you are fucking deluded. You are not.

[CarbonFiber]

I told Nacho to bring it. I told him to tell Tammy in the scum QT to attack me (As a jkoke). I did not expect that at all. I reeally didn't

You really think NAcho and Tammy are scum together and Nacho told Tammy to push you? Why would NAcho have to be involved in Tammy's decision to push you (assuming she is scum)?

Because he started setting me up fr the hammer in his first post f the day.

F-16: Why did you not vote at all Yesterday? IIRC, you never voted even once despite tryingto get mastin lynched from the sidelines pretty much all Day. Why no vote ever?

Okay, I am a little calmer now. I'll explain what I thought would happen and what actually hapenned:

I suspected the scumteam to be you, Penguin, Nacho, and Tammy.

I didn't expect Tammy to push me if she was scum at all. I expected her to continue to push BRO. I expected you to push me. You can read BRO 100% Pushing BRO might as well be a scumclaim. It is the same for Tammy and me. Neither of us failed to read each other correctly before.

So, you push me, Tammy pushes BRO-Desp. That's what I assumed the scumplan was. I expected to come into the game to see you vote me. I was ready for it. What I didn't expect was for Tammy to push me.

I can handle pushes from people that know me before. Nacho tried pushing me once in Micro 252, read it if you want. I responded fairly calmly and was able to get one of his scumbuddies lynched. The push went nowhere. I expected to be able to handle Nacho pushing me again. I told him to push me. I told him to show me that he was scum and to scumclaim to me if he was in jest. I even put up a show about how I am ready for him and told him to bring it on so I could see him for the scum he was.

What I didn't expect was for Tammy to open up with a vote on me. I was already feeling like absolute crap about pushing Mastin and Muffin-Nati's lynches and being a dick to ffery about how they were obvscum. I was about this close to breaking down completely. I did not expect her to vote me at all.

Her reaction is a total scumclaim after I responded to it. She didn't even ask me if I was okay although you did. I've played many more games with Tammy than I have with you. I've interacted with her a lot more than I have interacted with you. Heck, you don't even like me. And the only person who asked me if I was all right was you. Tammy just ignored it and continued attacking me which is as good as a scumclaim. As to why she wouldn't push me on her own, it is because she can read me and I can read her. She wouldn't push me unless she was sure she would win. And at this point, I think she knows that she would win. Pushing me is basically claiming scum to me.

Why I didn't vote yesterday: I was going to vote sometime before deadline. There weren't enough fucking spots on the wagon. Look at who didn't vote Mastin. Look at the non-voters. All these people wanted to vote but it only took 8 to lynch.

[CarbonFiber]

I can't imagine how happy zMuffin and Nati are to see this. I feel so sorry and feel like crap for pushing them.

[CarbonFiber]

He said maybe we were scum together and we were going to blow our cover and mislynch him today

: |

And then he freaked the fuck out

.....kay....
Fucking. There have been way too many meltdowns in this game and its all starting to blur together in the 'fuck it' part of my head.
Im not sure if him reportedly expecting this treachery from Tammy/Nacho makes the emotion make more sense "I knew this would happen!!" or not. My gut is really at ends with it since if he expected it (and apparently even taunted NAcho about it), why is he so emotional over it actually going down. Or maybe its something more specific that bothers me. Like hes frustrated, but more in a "I give up" when I'd expect more anger or raging? I'm really over trying to understand all the emotions in this game at this juncture :/

I didn't taunt Nacho about it. I challenged him. He pushed me when he was scum before and I knew what to expect.

[CarbonFiber]

I can't imagine how happy zMuffin and Nati are to see this. I feel so sorry and feel like crap for pushing them.

I can't imagine they're actually happy to see the town driving themselves into a hole because people are making irrational pushes. I'm sure pie's pissed that you're making an irrational push on Tammy and Tammy's making an irrational push on you. I'm sure Mastin isn't happy that you're repeating old mistakes. I'm sure even LORD BUSINESS doesn't want to see this happening for the third day in a row.

NO, they are happy because they wanted to see me punished in some way for pushing the crap out of them. They don't want town to win anymore because of me.

I know they were right all along. Nati called Tammy scum. Muffin called AP scum.

I KNEW Tammy was scum all along at some deep level and was partly kidding myself into townreading her because I didn't want to scumread anyone I like playing with. I never want to scumread you, and I never want to scumread Tammy.

Like this was the first game ever that I came into the game being unsure of Tammy as opposed to calling her obvtown. That's when I should have known. That was the differentiator between her town and scum games.

I spent HOURS reading every page of Stacking the Deck front to back and back to front. I read every word she wrote in the game. I didn't even ISO. I read it in context.

I watched as you took Syr down and how she went on to win the game. Her scumgame parallels yours and is truly spectacular to watch.

[CarbonFiber]

I am not sure what I want to do. I have a class at 5 and I was already super stressed out about finals because I was falling behind because I keep checking into this game whenever I need to study. I'll probably head home by about 7 so I think I should be able to think clearly then.

[CarbonFiber]

I'm not the running around calling Cassandra on him.

Is it wrong I'm feeling slightly amused that someone is declaring KNOWLEDGE I'm scum when I'm as town as I've ever been.

I mean for someone so attuned to my meta, it seems extraordinarily unlikely I'd get paranoid about someone over night. Shit how many times have I paranoid voted someone, then talked it out. For someone who knows I get paranoid?

Point out a game where you non-RVS voted me ever before?

[CarbonFiber]

Aka I'm pretty sure F-16 is half me, half you.

WHAT?

[CarbonFiber]

I wasn't setting you up. I asked you a question. Your hammer looked scummy. I wanted to know why you hammered. It is not like I voted you over it or even called you scum for it. I wanted to understand your thought process for why you hammered.

[CarbonFiber]

I should have explained my reads when Muffin asked for it.

[CarbonFiber]

I'm not the running around calling Cassandra on him.

Is it wrong I'm feeling slightly amused that someone is declaring KNOWLEDGE I'm scum when I'm as town as I've ever been.

I mean for someone so attuned to my meta, it seems extraordinarily unlikely I'd get paranoid about someone over night. Shit how many times have I paranoid voted someone, then talked it out. For someone who knows I get paranoid?

Point out a game where you non-RVS voted me ever before?

Point out a game where I was saying there was scum in your neighborhood, haven't had you strong town, and you looked like you were setting me up for something that I can't even imagine coming from scum you.

And just so you know this oh I knew it I knew it is completely wrong.

Like seriously, if you actually think I'm scum here, you've definitely lost the right to read me.

And nacho shut up. Yes, I'm suspicious but I'm hella far from ready to roast him over a pit.

I am not the one voting you, you are.

What the hell was up with the whole "he's not playing like AoT or Wicked but still could be scum because Nacho showed him shit?"

Nacho and I were hydra'ing in your modded game. It is not like we went to a far-off island where he taught me ninja tricks or something. It all happened right under your nose. You still said I was bad as scum in the dead QT while you watched. Like seriously, what did you expect that I supposedly learned that I didn't show right in your game?

[CarbonFiber]

I can't believe you of all people are asking me about that hammer. It was two days until deadline. The lynch wasn't going anywhere else. The games over 290 pages long, and the most of the discussion has been after mastin and then mastin making a fucktin of walls tha weren't giving anyone a clear read on him except more suspicions. What the hell do you think was going to happen in two days especially with the only person you trust to run the town and des/bro REFUSING to d anything else besides sit in that fucking neighborhood.

I personally would have hammered. I didn't expect you to hammer because it's not what you do. You wait and wait and wait until the very last second before you make a decision.

It looked like you didn't want the lynch to switch to AP and wanted to grab this lynch while you can and also not let Mastin react to your vote on him.

Why did you never, ever, ever vote for days and days and as soon as he was brought to L-1, immediately claimed the hammer?

[CarbonFiber]

You don't have to bully me

I've never?

Why are you only trying to tell me I'm wrong about falcon? I'm the one with suspicions and paranoia especially based on him setting me up for that hammer, which oh my gods was a mercy killing and the best damn thing for town at that point. I mean holy fuck.

Do you actually still think I'm scum at this point, like really?

[CarbonFiber]

YOU ARE SPENDING SO MUCH TIME LOOKING GOOD HERE. SO, THE FUCK IS SCUM, NACHO?

[CarbonFiber]

I can't believe you of all people are asking me about that hammer. It was two days until deadline. The lynch wasn't going anywhere else. The games over 290 pages long, and the most of the discussion has been after mastin and then mastin making a fucktin of walls tha weren't giving anyone a clear read on him except more suspicions. What the hell do you think was going to happen in two days especially with the only person you trust to run the town and des/bro REFUSING to d anything else besides sit in that fucking neighborhood.

I personally would have hammered. I didn't expect you to hammer because it's not what you do. You wait and wait and wait until the very last second before you make a decision.

It looked like you didn't want the lynch to switch to AP and wanted to grab this lynch while you can and also not let Mastin react to your vote on him.

Why did you never, ever, ever vote for days and days and as soon as he was brought to L-1, immediately claimed the hammer?

Um yeah I do. I once spent an entire game doing nothing but hammering. I think it's obvious if you read my posts, and my answer to this already. Was anything going anywhere? Would there have been another lynch? I was sick as shit and couldn't out up with another 50 pages of that crap. I was hoping that in the end he was scum and I'd get to hammer the scum who came after me early day one for bullshit. And holy shit I do hammer. Go read pick your power that I played with nacho. It's the one I linked that I said I wasn't so proud of. I hammered well before deadline when it was clear there would be nothing else. Someone I thought was town even.

For someone certain of my meta you sure are getting things wrong here. I just can't figure out why you of all people came after me about the hammer.

Then why the fuck are you not reading my posts where I explained to you why I asked that question?

[CarbonFiber]

Your pushes this whole game have been absolute shit Tammy. (And yes Mastin, Muffin, Nati I know this applies to me as well)

I posted a long ass wall explaining to you why BRO and Desp were town. You ignored it completely and continuous pushed them even though their alignment is obvious as fuck to anyone with two brain cells.

You kept pushing PV because he used old meta on you. Bullshit. You didn't stop for one second to consider why the fuck scum-PV would even bother pushing you.

You pushed Pie when he was the towniest he has ever been in his entire life of playing mafia.

Now you are voting me and the way you are attacking me still feels like you are not even trying to figure me out but just trying to justify your push and make yourself look good.

You "lean town" on Penguin which is absolute bullshit. Penguin has been scum, scum, scum. I analyzed her posts in the neihghborhood. Her push on Mastin was fake. Her role is not fucking town. There is not a bodyguard, bulletproof, commuter, and watcher in the same game. Her role if fake. Her push is fake. Her interactions with me fit scum-Penguin to a T.

You ignored her, you claim you can't get a read on AP. And you tunnel PV? and BRO-Desp and me? You are a better player than this as town.

[CarbonFiber]

I need to run to class but I'll get back to this later.

[CarbonFiber]

Ugh, just got back. Tammy as scum doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I'm going to respond to all of those posts in a bit.

[CarbonFiber]

It's nice to know my one and only certain town read is town, and not dead so thank iomedae for that!

So, you guys gonna come out of the neighborhood now and stop circle jerking about how right you are. I still feel like there's scum in that neighborhood.

Penguins pretty much going to bat for bro being town, depending on how he plays it today I guess, but she's talking me down fro
M my des/bro bloodthirst so it's up t you boys. Do something!

VOTE: carbon fiber

I'll answer you when I'm at my computer.

If there is scum in the neighborhood, it is probably Nacho.

I don't trust Penguin at all and I think she's scum defending town.

[CarbonFiber]

I don't trust any of the three. :/

Any of which three?

[CarbonFiber]

Dang, I was hoping for a scumflip.

I am Yuri Lowell, Town Lone Wolf (modified vig), Tales of Vesperia (you can guess the modification). I didn't shoot last night because I wanted to see Rancid's flip. I shot him night1 because he was total scum (even if he flipped green).

Going home, but want that out there for discussion. I'll try to check in tonight.

You shouldn't have claimed. Scum know to roleblock you now but at least that's one additional person we can eliminate as being scum.

Breakfast is probtown but I don't trust AP obviously so I'm not buying the "result."

[CarbonFiber]

I can't believe you of all people are asking me about that hammer. It was two days until deadline. The lynch wasn't going anywhere else. The games over 290 pages long, and the most of the discussion has been after mastin and then mastin making a fucktin of walls tha weren't giving anyone a clear read on him except more suspicions. What the hell do you think was going to happen in two days especially with the only person you trust to run the town and des/bro REFUSING to d anything else besides sit in that fucking neighborhood.

I was tired. I'd had enough. The distraction wasn't going to end and on top of that I'm fucking sick as shit and didn't have the patience for another 50 pages of the same damn thing.

I thought he might be scum and if you read any of m posts you'd know that I was a the pit that I thought his lynch would be the best thing regardless.

And your asking me why I hammered?

Spoiler: why I hammered

Penguin told me someone would be opportunistic and come after me for that hammer. What I'd like to know is why'd you unvote? After pushing him all day and then going we should lynch angry pigeon? And why did nacho never vote even whoe pushing the worlds largest case on him?

I laughed when penguin said someone would be opportunistic and come after me for the hammer, I just never in a million years thought it would be you.

Okay. I didn't read this post earlier but it makes more sense to vote me once I questioned you about it.

[CarbonFiber]

Wait so BOTH Stalin and RG are claiming that they are 100% sure they were blocked.
I was not blocked.
CF, you use your power any time during the day right?
Can everyone not yet in a hood claim their game? I need to look mine up...Tales of HEarts / Spir Maze.

I agree. Let's make a list first.

[CarbonFiber]

This is fucking bullshit. On the off chance you're town and actually think there's a snails chance I'm scum, you should give up playing mafia.

Can you read the neighborhood topics you set up?

No. Just the one I'm in.

[CarbonFiber]

I KNEW YOU WERE SCUM AND I WAS TELLING EVERYONE IN THGE NEUIGHTBORHOOS ABOYUT UT

I told Nacho he was scum with yo.

This is fucking bullshit by the way.

And I do believe you'd set me up. I watched what you did to Mina in wicked. a REMEMBER?

I was pushing her, sure but I never "set her up" for anything.

[CarbonFiber]

TAMMY: In the neighborhood last night, it was Desperado who was paranoid of you. F-16 had doubts in small bursts, but reread to reassure himself. That doesn't seem like he's "posturing against you", and I have no idea why he would posture against you in the first place as scum.

He literally said he knew I was scum and telling everyone in the neighborhood about it.

Okay, here's what actually happened in the neighborhood.

Desp said that you were scum setting us up. I kept insisting that you were town, that your play was town and that I would cry if you flipped scum.

But at some point, I realized that I had never played with scum-you and didn't know whether or not I'd be able to catch you because there's never been an instance of it in the past. So, I went and read Stacking the Deck of Power and saw your scumgame. I saw you and Tierce pushing mislynches and curbstomping your way to victory even after Nacho got Syryana lynched D1. It was at that point that the paranoia really intensified and I started to wonder if the scumteam were you, Nacho, PA, and AP. I jokingly said to Nacho "If you want to blow your cover today and go after my mislynch tomorrow, try it. And tell Tammy in the scum QT to do it as well." I wasn't actually serious but it was part of my imagination. And then, when you opened with a vote on me, I just fell apart completely.

I sort of fantasized about what a you/AP scumteam would do and figured that AP would push me and you would push BRO. It was still a part of my imagination.

[CarbonFiber]

Anyway, in case this bullshit goes somewhere

I'm milla maxwell a town determined warrior. I'm an anti-roleblocker. But I had to decide before the game started who I was going to attach myself to and I can't change it unless the person I chose first dies.

Guess who I chose? Guess you can't guess? Nacho is unroleblockable. That is why I started the game already paranoid about their slot and asked them to town themselves early. I thought that in a large there could be one of both and if I made scum unroleblockable I'd be screwing over town. The "I will stay with you" in my first post referred to that. I stay with the person and fight along their side.

If nacho dies, I can choose another person, and my action can't be roleblocked.

~~~

And what the fucktin fuck. I didn't even see your meltdown until quite a bit later. I'm on my fucking phone and didn't read the million edits. You're screaming at me that I'm scum when you felt to me like you were setting me up. I do hope you're okay, and now that's going to sound insincere but when I read it I thought you were trying to imitate bro's meltdown. I'm sick as fuck and barely able to keep up with shit as it is.

Anyway, I don't care if people get mad at me claiming but whatever.

And falcon I said I would answer you when I got to a computer, which I didn't do because I'm still on my damn phone why wouldn't you just wait. Also if we are both town then we irrationally got it into our heads we'd push each other. And since I waffled on you like crazy in the neighborhood last night going from a I'd be surprised if you flipped scum to a maybe the scum team is nacho/falcon/pere/Orcinus to a yeah I'd be surprised if he flipped scum to a wait nacho might be town here's why to a hold on I think I do actually like my town tell for pere to a you know what the only thing I feel good about in this game is that ffery's town and if she dies I don't know what to do because it's the only thing I feel solid on. No I wasn't planning on pushing anyone but you put my back up with that question about the hammer and of anyone to try to make me look bad for that I didn't think it would be you and then I thought maybe penguin was right about her suspicions.

You are sort of describing how I felt in my neighborhood oscillating between telling Desp that I know your play well enough that this is very blatantly your towngame to thinking "could she actually be scum? I mean she's good at it and downplays it a lot and if she is, we're all fucked." I didn't "know" all along that you were scum, I just feared it and made connections that I shouldn't have made because I was thinking so much about this game and driving myself into a paranoid spiral I wasn't even thinking clearly.

[CarbonFiber]

Make your full case on Tammy. Post it if you still believe in it by the time that it's over.

I don't. I am actually much more sure now. Sure enough that I've gotten rid of all the paranoia like a disease. At least now I feel good about my reads on Tammy, BRO-Desp, and Cupcake. I am not convinced that you are town though.

[CarbonFiber]

I -promised- myself Id do work and not look at this game, ugh.

Your hammer looked scummy.

Why did the hammer look scummy? You literally just pointed out to me that there were plenty of people off the wagon who would have done it when I asked about you. And you had lterally all Day to vote mastin who was reportedly your top suspect.

Also, someone is being ridiculously dead-pan about events in the thread and I think they are skyrocketing to my favorite lynch rather quickly.

I explained why I thought it was although I changed my mind now. As for voting, I'm just generally slow to vote. You'll have to deal with that.

Who are you referring to as "deadpan" about the events in thread?

[CarbonFiber]

I didn't ignore it. I read it. I worried you were being manipulated but didn't want to push it. I also worried you were scum doing the same thing for Bro as you did for Penguin in Wicked. I chose to try not to get overly paranoid about it. You have no understanding of my scum game if you think I, as scum, would ignore something like that. I, as town, get paranoid. I, as town, set things aside until I can make sense of them. I, as town, don't always address everything in thread.

PV's use of old meta when he had a perfectly good recent game to look at was and is bullshit. I didn't keep pushing PV, in fact, I even pointed out a reason I thought he was town. Did you ignore that?

Part of my read on Penguin comes from ffery declaring her town when she replaced in. I'm paranoid of Penguin and she knows I am. She's not a watcher though. What makes you think I'd recognize scum!Penguin anyway?

I ignored who? I don't know what to think about AP. Do you know how to get a clear read on AP? I don't. I didn't tunnel PV. I haven't tunneled anyone this damn game because I've been so freaking lost I don't know what's going on. I have one read I feel good about ONE. And that ONE just got confirmed so yay me the one thing I felt good about was right. I'm AWESOME!

But thank you very much for trashing my town game. I may not be on point this game but I couldn't be more town. I am trying to figure you out but it's kinda difficult when you're declaring a very town me is SCUMOHIKNEWITKNEWITKNEWITKNEWIT WHEN I'M FUCKING NOT.

Okay, a few things:

1) I disagree with Ffery's declaration of Penguin town for a couple of reasons: Penguin told me that she was trying to improve her scumgame and that the wall I wrote in Wicked gave her a lot of information about how she appears to an outside perspective. For instance, I point out that she pushes lynches harder and with more conviction as town. Most of what I wrote about her was genuine. That's why I felt that her push on Mastin was playing specifically to subvert that meta because it was overdone and it was too much. It felt unnatural. Her response to me about BRO was also hedgy and exactly the sort of things I look for in scum-Penguin.

2) I have AP as a clear scumread. For whatever reason, it became more clearer after Mastin and Rancid flipping town. They wanted AP's blood pretty badly and I think Mastin was right about him.

3) Worrying about me manipulating BRO was fair enough since it is analogous to my wall on Penguin. What I hoped for was you to work with me on a read that I was very, very certain about.

[CarbonFiber]

I KNEW IT. YOU WERE SETTING ME UP WITH MASTIN BEIONG TIWN OI CANT PTYUEPOE ATGF AT FTYPE PROPERLYT

How was I setting you up for Mastin being town again?

Also are you really calling me scum because I didn't rush in here and ask if you're all right? Didn't Pie use this accusation against Mastin already. He didn't appropriately respond to Bro's meltdown and therefore was scum.

Also, in the next post you repeatedly say "fuck you". You should go read the Reckoning and see how well I respond to people going fuck you when I haven't even done anything. I'm pretty sure that when mollie said she needed a break because of something, I told her fat chance for the way she'd talked to me, so yeah.

I did follow the Reckoning and I am sorry for saying "fuck you." I was stressed in real life and I had exams coming up and I was mostly unprepared for them and the pressure was building up. It just happened at a really bad time.

Nothing that happened earlier is your fault. All you did was vote for me which is to be expected in any mafia game. I am sorry I freaked out like I did. I don't even know at this point if it was based purely on in game events or if I was just so stressed, I completely freaked upon seeing a vote on me. I should not have taken it out on you. I am also sorry about trashing your pushes. My play here was if anything even worse. I don't think I've ever played a game this badly before and I most certainly shouldn't have said that you voting me was the cause of it because I imagined all this crap about how you and Nacho would unleash hell today and then I look back and see what you did, and it was, was a simple vote!

[CarbonFiber]

You are literally going from Tammy is my A+ town read will throw my laptop out the window if I'm wrong to I'm scum over night and you can't for one second understand that I might be paranoid about you when I've been talking about me being paranoid about you. You even responded to ffery yesterday that I had reason to not call you 100% town, so I really don't get this at all.

You think that Nacho told me to attack you in our scum qt and I did. Are you serious?

Like this doesn't even make sense and doesn't even flow with how I play scum. If you're mind is a blank on why i'm scum it's probably because I'm not.

I think the part you missed was me defending you in the neighborhood and then going full on paranoia mode.

What I last said in the neighborhood and what I was thinking to myself (I am paraphrasing): AP and Penguin are very likely scum. I don't see Tammy as scum. I don't understand the hammer but I am just going to talk to her about it and she'll have a good explanation for it and it'll work out fine because we can communicate with each other well.

What I said just before the day ended: "Go on Nacho, scumclaim to me by pushing me and tell Tammy to do is as well! I'll bring out my sword and shield and die fighting you." This last part was partly in jest obviously but I hope that explains why I reacted to your vote the way I did. It is not your fault and it is on me and you didn't have to ask if I was okay while I was being rude to you, but it was in the heat of the moment and other stuff going on with me. But this is on me.

[CarbonFiber]

I KNEW YOU WERE SCUM AND I WAS TELLING EVERYONE IN THGE NEUIGHTBORHOOS ABOYUT UT

I told Nacho he was scum with yo.

This is fucking bullshit by the way.

And I do believe you'd set me up. I watched what you did to Mina in wicked. a REMEMBER?

You also watched him experiencing a ton of trepidation and me being like "it's okay, she's not actually that town"? Why do you think all of his meta cases landed on him not being sure about her alignment?

But he pushed her, mocked her and attacked her playstyle.

I didn't mock her. I called her "waffles" because she named that as her hydra name and I didn't think it would offend her. I said this in game as well and when I realized she didn't like it, I dropped it. My attacks on her playstyle were lies. I actually liked her playstyle a lot.

[CarbonFiber]

I'm pretty damn town though and was from the start? You say you KNEW I was scum all along but then in an earlier post you say that us misreading each other is a scum claim.

Are you sure you want to stand by me being scum?

Thank you for the compliment on my scum game. I don't think it's spectacular at all, but I appreciate it. But, if you have paid attention to my scum game, you should see that when I'm at my best I'm actually trying to get town cred. A scum me would have loved to keep Mastin around. A scum me would have had a solid read on that. You only have to look at Red Wedding to see how a scum me championed Metal Sonic against my partner Generic. The noise was delicious, I took a side, and tried to get my partner lynched in the process because I would have had metal sonic on my side and would have looked good while doing it. That's how I treat noise and a volatile situation as scum. Maybe I wouldn't always bus my partner, but it would be easy to take a stand instead of waffle about the player for 200 fucking pages. And since town reads are what typically come easiest to me it wouldn't even be out of the ordinary for me to town read him. And I mean geeze how you can't see I was conflicted about his and rancid's alignment is just astounding.

I guess my issue was that we weren't on the same page. You were waffling on Mastin while I was certain. I think based on past experience, I expected you to have similar reads to me. Like in NY169, we were both scumreading MC Maraca even while we were wrong. In PYP, we were both scumreading KK, Iam, and GM, while townreading nearly everyone else. Some of the slight twinges of paranoia came from the fact that I thought we'd see the game similarly.

I mentioned before in this game how we weren't seeing it identically. So far, the only explanation I have for us not having similar reads is that my perspective is different. I formed townreads on my two neighborhood buddies and extrapolated from there. I pushed Mastin with complete confidence because Pie was also pushing him and everything he said struck me at a very relatable level. I pushed Mastin and RBD as hard as I did because I never once questioned BRO's alignment. When BRO pushed them, I took his word as the word of confirmed town. You didn't, and you questioned his alignment making you far more unsure of the pushes that BRO and Pie were making. That's part of the reason I didn't have absolute certainty that you were town like I did in PYP, NY169, and Z-mafia and also in the older games we played. I had different touchstones. You had Ffery. I had Pie, Desp, and BRO.

And yeah, I can see now why you would fluctuate on Mastin and Rancid. Rancid for whatever reason did not make it easy to townread them by being overly aggressive and hostile. Mastin, I just misread because his posts came across as manipulative which kinda sucks.

[CarbonFiber]

Quite frankly when you unvoted Mastin at the end of the day, it looked suspicious to me after Mastin flipped town. I thought you were trying to demonstrate fake uncertainty on the lynch you'd been pushing the entire time and that you decided that actually the noise would be more beneficial to have around than lose.

I never voted or unvoted Mastin actually. If you are referring to my saying that we should lynch AP, then yeah that was me wondering if Mastin was genuinely town that caught AP.

[CarbonFiber]

I want everyone to claim child/adult

Geriatrics have pretty fragile bones.

initial scumreads

AP, Mastin, Clayton, DV/Ceph

with mastin gone, I am unsure who teammember 4 would be, thoughts?

Weren't you saying I was scum just a few pages ago towards the end of D1?

Also, with your massclaim idea, I don't know. If you really think it will help, then sure I'll claim.

[CarbonFiber]

I'm sorry for flicking you off!

I hope your finals go well.

Thanks. I'll find a few minutes here and there to study in between mafia

[CarbonFiber]

Penguin, I explained why I reacted the way I did. My push on you in ETL's resistance didn't make any sort of sense whatsoever and I said that part of the reason for the push was to confuse people and create chaos.

I make "over-the-top" pushes as town too. Did you already forget the "tragic penguin pictures" from Cowardly Hider?

I explained why I freaked out over one vote because I was paranoid that it was part of a larger scum plan. I legitimately have finals and am really, really behind and that's making me irritable and prickly overall because I'm playing this game as I watch more time fly by instead of studying.

It feels like you suddenly reacted to me accusing you by pushing back on me. What scum motivation is there to accuse you when I learned from ETL's Resistance that you would prevail? I respect your abilities and if you are town in a game where I am scum, I target my game towards you and try my best to fool you because that's what works. Going after you never did and I wouldn't expect it to. I am not Mastin and the way I view you when I am scum couldn't be more different.

[CarbonFiber]

W/e, at least I know now Tammy is town, BRO-Desp is town, Cupcake is town, and PeregrineV is town so you are going to lose this game anyways.

[CarbonFiber]

Spoiler: Updated reads

DEAD

1 LordBusiness - Roleblocker with possibility of re-entry into the game
2 Mac - Paranoid Bodyguard that also rolestops target
3 Rancid Broderick Drake (zmuffinman + natirasha) - Sword Dancer, Town Battleseeker* *A modified gladiator
4 MastinSSK (Mastin2 + MafiaSSK) - Bulletproof Re-incarnated god
5 Yggdra Union (GIF + Pieguyn) - Town evolving JOAT

Town (Strongest->Weakest)

:

1 PeregrineV
2 Titan (Tammy + Ser Arthur Dane)
3 Just Sheep Us (Broseidon + Desperado)
4 Cupcake Panda
5 Breakfast With Stalin (Ffery + Beli)

Still to be sorted

:

6 Red Gyarados (Brian Skies + notscience)
7 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir + DV)
8 MagentaTheGreat (Orcinus + Mara)
9 Nachomamma8

Scum (Strongest->Weakest)

:

10 AngryPidgeon
11 Penguin_alien

Pedit: What are you referring to?

[CarbonFiber]

Your over the top push on Tammy comes from nothing reasonable I can see. And I did what you asked overnight and read through your ISO. Part of what I discussed with Tammy was that I wasn't seeing strong town-you in it, so while I can maybe see that my read on you comes out of thin air, rest assured that it's been building for the last couple of days.

I remember your tragic penguin pics (my soul hasn't recovered, TYVM) but even there you had an agenda with being OTT, like you did in Resistance. Trouble is I don't see the town agenda here for flipping out on Tammy. I'd say it's emotional, except let's face it, neither of your past OTT responses have been anything other than strategic, either trying to paint me as scum or figure out if I'm scum.

Although interesting that you posit that you wouldn't have changed aspects of your game post-Wicked whereas I would have.

On a side note, seriously, I know it's the end of the school year for semester people (yay quarter system) and there are important non-Mafia obligations. This is a game. It's been really intense from what I've read, and I think it feels ramped up with how high emotions have been running. If I'm wrong and you're town, and you're stressed enough to be helping generate a dozen pages of content in like eight hours from one vote, take a deep breath and step back. We have time. I'd much rather play with you when you're in a conducive place than have us death spiral tunnel each other for out of game stressors.

My past OTT responses didn't come at a time when I was behind on finals and being stressfully obsessed with a single game. I used sitechat to ask Cabd last night if we were planning to start the day 12 hours ahead. He said no. Then I asked him again this morning when he was going to start and he said he wasn't feeling well. This game has been in some ways unfun but it still draws me towards it. I'm never drawn to a game this much as scum. Most of the fun of mafia for me is in analysis and puzzle solving and that only happens when town. Anyways, I probably invested myself in this game too much and that's why I reacted that way. I also explained that I was waiting for Nacho and Tammy to come after me if they were scum and all of that combined was why I reacted that way. I didn't have a strategy. I also explained that I was wrong to expect anyone to react sympathetically when I was being rude myself. I wasn't thinking clearly at that time. You are trying to logically beat my posts at a time when I wasn't typing logically at all.

I hope I am wrong and that you are town too. It's what I would like. Clyton's post where he claimed watcher was a trigger that almost confirmed to me that the slot was scum after seeing Mastin flip town. I don't know why he claim it but in light of you saying it was fake, I'll think about it.

[CarbonFiber]

Spoiler: Responses to Deasvail

What's coming to you? If it's pressure/wagon/lynch you're talking about then you can't actually believe that, because you're assuming Tammy is scum for voting you, and a whole bunch of other people were wrong about Mastin (including me!).

Explained this already.

Why is this such a shock?

It is not a shock. I was just asking him what he meant.

So, you're allowed to call Tammy your strongest townread or whatever and go back on it, but no one can dare disagree with any of your other townreads? I don't think so!

That's not what I meant. I said I disagreed with most of Tammy's pushes and pointed out what they were.

Again, how is anyone that thought Mastin/RBD scum confident enough to use their scumreads as a basis for reading other people??? Even it wasn't for me thinking everyone was scum at the moment, there's no way I'm going to be confident in a scumread after that. Sure, I might pretend to be so that chances of people sheeping me rises from 0% to 2%, but actually having it influence a read either means you're insanely arrogant (posts today such as addressed to Nati/Muffin indicate otherwise) or it's a fake reason to suspect someone! So, what gives?

I found Mastin and AP individually scummy and when they went after each other, I assumed that they were bussing. I realize in hindsight it was kind of a stretch. It makes more sense that Mastin-town went after AP-scum and the puzzle pieces make more sense this way. I wasn't confident initially once I saw the flips but Pie and I talked a lot in the neighborhood about the various possible scumteams etc. I assumed Penguin claimed watcher which increased my confidence in her being scum.

Why now and not earlier?

Because I was able to calm down and think logically and the whole scenario I made up in my mind didn't make any sense and all of her responses seemed perfectly reasonable.

Why didn't you read it?

I was stressed out and skimming hard.

CF, given your explanation of the neighbourhood, why did you claim to have been calling Titan scum there, when that isn't really an accurate explanation of what happened?

I was joking about it to Nacho and talking about how him and Titan should blow their cover today to get a mislynch on me. I went wtf when Tammy voted me and thought that it actually happened.

[CarbonFiber]

Breakfast, what are your updated reads? Who do you think are the four most likely players to be scum?

[CarbonFiber]

No, they didn't role claim.

I don't have much of an opinion on AP's D3 posts, they are mostly null. Some of his questions are inquisitive sounding which could come from town or good scum. Nothing overwhelmingly alignment indicative. I haven't really played a lot with him before or read a lot of his games.

Talk to me about Penguin though. I have much stronger opinions there.

[CarbonFiber]

I was worried about the same thing i.e. if she was trying to hit her town markers. I do think that Mastin underestimates her abilities vastly often pegging her as an easy mislynch or as she says a "pawn" in Mastin's grandiose plans of scum victories in the scum QTs. I think Penguin would like nothing more than to teach Mastin a lesson for that and powering through a lynch on Mastin when Mastin was under pressure and about to get lynched fits in perfectly. I think we probably look for similar markers although I'm not sure. I sort of skimmed NY172, I didn't really read in depth.

[CarbonFiber]

Although I don't get why she'd go after me because my approach to her when scum is completely different and we both mutually respect each other's playstyles except a) opportunism and b) I pushed her first and she thought it was optimal to push back. But telling me to step back felt townish.

[CarbonFiber]

So, I read through the latest posts and I'll respond soon but I am starting to wonder if there was scum in the Abyss Neighborhood and Penguin is also scum and they relayed that I was going to question Tammy about the hammer and Penguin tried to plant that seed. I don't know why Penguin would think someone would push Tammy about the hammer. It seemed like a weird thing.

[CarbonFiber]

PV, take a break. Tammy is the towniest she's ever been in any game ever that I've played with her before. I strongly advise you against vigging her and since you think I'm so town, trust me on this.

Pedit: Hey Ceph, please read my follow up posts where I post explanations to my reaction at the beginning of the day. You are ignoring it. I said I had finals and I need to study and I am pressured and falling behind.

[CarbonFiber]

we are van grants, instructor master, even night tracker. ap visited stalin last night.

out ability will fail against replicas.

Wait, what? If your ability fails against replicas, you are also a cop. So, you are a cop and if your target is town, you can track them as well?

[CarbonFiber]

YOUR ACTION EITHER FAILED OR YOU'RE LYING BUDDY #1

CHELSEA TORN
TOWN DELAYER

N1 MASTIN
N2 AP

Explain what delayer means?

[CarbonFiber]

JSU, can you paraphrase your role in your own words? And tell me the name of your role.

[CarbonFiber]

we are van grants, instructor master, even night tracker. ap visited stalin last night.

out ability will fail against replicas.

Wait, what? If your ability fails against replicas, you are also a cop. So, you are a cop and if your target is town, you can track them as well?

yeah

panda why are you ignoring me also saying you are lying?

So, in a way you are cc'ing AP as well since you are both cops.

You are an even night cop (+ tracker if you check town)
AP is a cop that can only check one of three targets (the ones that would be most advantageous to scum)

I don't know. My role PM says that I appear as a replica to "all" cops so that implies more than one cop. But then you said you are an instruction master, not a cop.

I am not sure why Cupcake would fake a guilty on AP at this point. With Mastin telling us to lynch AP with his dying breath and some of us suspicious of him, if AP was town, scum could get the mislynch without any loss.

I am not buying Cupcake as scum.

[CarbonFiber]

kats scum fakeclaims here to remove another strong player at the cost of a scum slot that will never survive til lylo anyway

Nobody was really interested in lynching him though. Why wouldn't scum try to go for a perfect win? It is just not making sense for something scum-Katsuki would do. But you make no sense as scum either.

[CarbonFiber]

Falcon - how did I become the towniest you've ever seen me?

After you checked out last night, I went back and read through all of your responses to me a couple of times, saw the way in which you handled the situation, and it was really obvious that you were trying to figure out my alignment and the perspective from which you were speaking from made sense. You also had that reasonable tone that I hadn't seen in any of your scumgames, that is harder to quantify. I'll give a detailed explanation if you still want to get at how I formed the read but I feel refreshingly certain in a way I wasn't before in this game. I don't think you'd make some of the posts you made last night as scum.

[CarbonFiber]

Falcon - how did I become the towniest you've ever seen me?

After you checked out last night, I went back and read through all of your responses to me a couple of times, saw the way in which you handled the situation, and it was really obvious that you were trying to figure out my alignment and the perspective from which you were speaking from made sense. You also had that reasonable tone that I hadn't seen in any of your scumgames, that is harder to quantify. I'll give a detailed explanation if you still want to get at how I formed the read but I feel refreshingly certain in a way I wasn't before in this game. I don't think you'd make some of the posts you made last night as scum.

Hey uh, you do realize that JSU is claiming an INNOCENT result on me right?

And Katsuki is claiming that I LIED about my night actions.

Why are you waffling about Katsuki's motivation for this instead of actually addressing the elephant in the room?

Well, sorry for being paranoid about the guy who gloats about getting cop confirmed double self-targeting docs mislynched?

I am trying to figure shit out.

[CarbonFiber]

Well, sorry for being paranoid about the guy who gloats about getting cop confirmed double self-targeting docs mislynched?

I am trying to figure shit out.

Ok well the only way I can be scum is if BRO-desp is scum, so I'll let you resolve that cognitive dissonance then.

You could be scum that actually visited Stalin with BRO-Desp tracking you there. BRO-Desp's role is OP. There could potentially be some kind of GF-type role to counter it with yours being it. Like I appear guilty to all cops, perhaps scum have a role that appears innocent to all cops? As for Katsuki's actions on you, perhaps you or one of your buddies is immune from being delayed or scum have a counterpart to Tammy's rolestopper role and used it on before game start? That's a lot of speculation but I can't see a clear scum motive for Katsuki to up and claim "AP didn't visit Stalin" for no reason at all either. He's a good scum player as you know from Anything Goes. He'd expect to survive and win the game.

[CarbonFiber]

You could be scum that actually visited Stalin with BRO-Desp tracking you there. BRO-Desp's role is OP. There could potentially be some kind of GF-type role to counter it with yours being it. Like I appear guilty to all cops, perhaps scum have a role that appears innocent to all cops? As for Katsuki's actions on you, perhaps you or one of your buddies is immune from being delayed or scum have a counterpart to Tammy's rolestopper role and used it on before game start? That's a lot of speculation but I can't see a clear scum motive for Katsuki to up and claim "AP didn't visit Stalin" for no reason at all either. He's a good scum player as you know from Anything Goes. He'd expect to survive and win the game.

Vote: Cupcake

Explain why scum Katsuki pulls this off? Game mechanics-wise, he looks like the guilty one but I can't see why he would do it.

[CarbonFiber]

AP, there are plenty of days left and there is no need to rush. I just want us to think things through and think about all the possibilities before we proceed with a lynch.

Mastin was very certain you were scum and it is part of my hesitation in believing you. You both know each other really well and I doubt Mastin would misread you in that way - scumreading you as soon as you entered the game and saying that you were scum right up until the lynch with you as a top suspect.

I am getting paranoid as hell about Nacho as well. Just jumping in and voting Cupcake doesn't feel right.

[CarbonFiber]

Explain, please?

I thought it unlikely for there to be a bulletproof, a bodyguard, and a watcher all in the same game. That's a lot of restrictions on scum nightkill choices.

[CarbonFiber]

Mac, who was Ricardo Soldato, Town Paranoid Bodyguard*, was Killed Night 1
*A Paranoid Bodyguard also acts as a modified rolestop

@ Tammy, is this similar to your role? The modified rolestop part?

Here's the wiki link for rolestopper: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Rolestopper

@ Stalin, yeah if they all work. I guess we don't have the full picture yet.

[CarbonFiber]

Dang, I was hoping for a scumflip.

I am Yuri Lowell, Town Lone Wolf (modified vig), Tales of Vesperia (you can guess the modification).

I didn't shoot last night because I wanted to see Rancid's flip.

I shot him night1 because he was total scum (even if he flipped green).

Going home, but want that out there for discussion. I'll try to check in tonight.

How did you know Rancid was going to flip?

[CarbonFiber]

AP, there are plenty of days left and there is no need to rush. I just want us to think things through and think about all the possibilities before we proceed with a lynch.

Mastin was very certain you were scum and it is part of my hesitation in believing you. You both know each other really well and I doubt Mastin would misread you in that way - scumreading you as soon as you entered the game and saying that you were scum right up until the lynch with you as a top suspect.

I am getting paranoid as hell about Nacho as well. Just jumping in and voting Cupcake doesn't feel right.

> Cupcake is lying about my role. The longer we wait, the more useless shit we discuss. The only relevant information is that Panda is claiming a result on me that is confirmed false. JSU is claiming that I am innocent AND is confirming my action. Panda is lying. The more we delay, the more people try to outguess the setup wtih crap logic and the more bogged down and unmotivated we all get and the higher the chance that Panda is able to skate after entering a 1v1 with me.

> Well I can't really argue that. Except that mastin had zero posted reason for thinking I was scum and thats probably because she was playing terribly this game.

> Why not? Did you seriously not read what happened? Cupcake claimed a guilty on me. Cupcake got immediately counterclaimed by YOUR STRONG TOWNREAD JSU. This is not rocket science, why is getting people to actually realize the obvious in front of them like pulling teeth.

I am not asking you to wait till deadline, just until I can process everything that happened and considered all the possibilities. If you are town, it is probably clear to you that Kats is scum but it isn't clear to me. I don't get why you don't understand the hesitation though when you strongarmed that lynch on Baby Spice in that Large Normal. You just made more sense overall and the lynch somehow happened.

I am going to consider all the possibilities and I am not ruling out bussing either although it seems unlikely.

[CarbonFiber]

This requires way too much jumping through hoops and twisting to find a conclusion you're trying to find, I'm surprised you didn't realize it as you were doing it. I kinda think you just don't want to be wrong again and are trying too hard to convince yourself.

I just admitted that it was a lot of speculation. What surprised you?

[CarbonFiber]

This requires way too much jumping through hoops and twisting to find a conclusion you're trying to find, I'm surprised you didn't realize it as you were doing it. I kinda think you just don't want to be wrong again and are trying too hard to convince yourself.

I just admitted that it was a lot of speculation. What surprised you?

And yet you still seem to think it the most likely possibility? Or am I misreading?

No, I am not sure what to make of this whole thing right now.

I also don't understand the point of a lot of your recent posts. I especially don't like the "if you are town and I still think you are" which just felt off.

[CarbonFiber]

In order for AP to be the liar and DesBRO not additionally be a liar, AP needs to have orc's role from Vesperia (universal godfather) that not only decides what he gives results back as, but also who he targeted (and also have the foresight to say that he targeted Stalin, despite scum almost certainly blocking Stalin instead of just claiming an investigate on someone else). Do I think this is the case?

No. Not at all.

Nacho, this actually seems plausible. Why are you discounting it? If AP wanted anyone investigating him to think that he visited Stalin, of course he would make his role give back results as him targeting Stalin and then he'll claim it in the thread. Not sure what to make of scum blocking Stalin though.

Also, on night 1, I learned that "

AP did not do anything.

" Not sure how relevant this is but I thought I'd out.

[CarbonFiber]

@ Breakfast, regarding Penguin, this is going to be mostly based on semantics but that's how I read Penguin so if it isn't clear what I am getting at, I'll be happy to rephrase.

@ Penguin, looking forward to hearing your case. I'd also like to see where you are at with the rest of your reads. Have you and Tammy discussed BRO's meltdown post yet? I was hoping to hear your thoughts on that too whenever you are caught up and get around to it.

Saw this in preview when posting my (partial) mastin thoughts. It's 3 AM, so this won't be comprehensive. Tammy and I haven't discussed it yet, except that she wants my read on BRO.

I'll say straight up that based on everything I know about BRO via playing Mafia with him here and offsite and hydraing, there's no way he fakes that. If (and that's a big if from reading 3020) he's scum, he's still genuinely upset at the way mastin is going after him. I will say that from my experience with scum-mastin, she can go after teammates in very unproductive ways (see: Open 541, where we almost blew LyLo because mastin thought it would be a good idea to push Mhork while ignoring all the planning in the scum QT).

The scenarios that Penguin presents here are extremely implausible. It feels like she wants to call BRO-Desp scum but somehow needs to say that they are town. On the surface, she calls them town while still leaving wiggle room for others to consider the possibility that they are scum. It feels like a reluctant defense of someone she knows to be town.

HOWEVER.

Much as I know BRO shakes up his scum game and makes some strange plays as either alignment

, this doesn't feel insincere at all, or to be more precise, coming from anything other than frustrated town. To be honest, I almost feel like just snipping this post out of my mental calculations, because it feels way intrusive for the game to have put him in a situation where he felt that he needed to share it. I won't, because it also feels wrong to disregard his forthrightness.

The qualifiers she uses (the bolded) again show her reluctance to flat out defend BRO. It doesn't show uncertainty in a read but feels like hedging because of the way she phrases it. If she was genuinely uncertain, I think she would have phrased it differently saying that she thought he was town but express doubt but the way she undermines her credibility before she calls BRO town feels like she wants to intentionally present a weak case.

I'm sorry, there are some things in his ISO that I noticed while skimming for the 'meltdown' post

(although I'm not really comfortable calling it a meltdown; heaven knows as someone who's dealt with issues that were hard to discuss I know exactly how painful it is to reveal that stuff, and calling it a meltdown feels condescending, to be frank)

that made me think he could be scum and some things that made me think town.

My very brief overall impression is that BRO came into the game excited about the player list and anticipating a fun game. There's some banter-type stuff that feels alignment-independent and so in my paranoia might make me think scum-BRO. But as he keeps posting, there's super-genuine sounding posts AND, more importantly, posts that read like the insightful BRO I'm used to watching work in-hydra when I darn well know his alignment.

The bolded is quite blatant hedging that feels fake and unnatural. The rest of the paragraph looks like she is trying to provide a convincing narrative as opposed to honestly talking about her reads. She talks about how some things are scummy, how some things are town, she fluffs about how BRO was excited to join the game. Nothing she says is in the least bit convincing and read from a POV where I treat her as town to hear her opinion on BRO, I'm left uncertain about his alignment (if I didn't already have strong opinions about it).

I'm on the verge of conking out, but hopefully that gives you an idea of where I am.

I may not be good at reading BRO as a mafia player

, but I'd like to think I have a sense of his personality well enough that I know him hitting a limit wasn't staged. Maybe I'm presuming too much, given that we're more Mafia friends than 'dish about life' friends, but that's how my brain works. I'll read the other 300+ posts from the JSU hydra after I get some sleep and try to get a sense of their alignment here.

Because, F-16, as much as I respect your play and would like to work with you if you're town here, if we hadn't misread BRO in Wicked I'd have neighborized him over you-Ghatokaca in a heartbeat, and I know town-BRO can game-solve like a maniac.

P-edit: I'm sorry, I can't react to everything that's elapsed since I started writing this up...tomorrow.

The bolded is more of the intensity with which she discredits her own read. It is possible for town to say that they are not the best at reading a player but the way this seems to be the centerpiece of Penguin's read, it comes off as scum who want towncred for correctly reading a townie but don't want to derail a mislynch if one should occur.

[CarbonFiber]

In order for AP to be the liar and DesBRO not additionally be a liar, AP needs to have orc's role from Vesperia (universal godfather) that not only decides what he gives results back as, but also who he targeted (and also have the foresight to say that he targeted Stalin, despite scum almost certainly blocking Stalin instead of just claiming an investigate on someone else). Do I think this is the case?

No. Not at all.

Nacho, this actually seems plausible. Why are you discounting it? If AP wanted anyone investigating him to think that he visited Stalin, of course he would make his role give back results as him targeting Stalin and then he'll claim it in the thread. Not sure what to make of scum blocking Stalin though.

Also, on night 1, I learned that "

AP did not do anything.

" Not sure how relevant this is but I thought I'd out.

Whoa wait a second.

How does AP not doing anything connect to Bork's reaction when AP said his action failed?

If Nacho is an ascetic like we've assumed, his action would fail, but AP would still have visited him. Right? Or am I high or stupid or just plain tired?

I had clarified it with Cabd. If AP attempted to visit someone that is not present in the gamestate (a commuter), then it would show as him going nowhere.

[CarbonFiber]

I want to talk to F-16 more here before the day ends, but here's what I see.

Katsuki is on one side and AP-JSU are the other. We either have one scum and two town nailed here, or one town and two scum. If we lynch Katsuki, if he flips scum it's a 0:1 town:scum effect. If town, we get a 1:2 effect of known town:scum. Either way we get one more scum than town flip.

If we lynch one of {AP, JSU} in the event they're town we get a 1:1 town:scum result; if they're scum we get a 0:2 effect.

I personally like the guarantee of netting one more scum than town at this point. My best town read in the group is JSU. And the risk of losing one of a tracker and investigative role versus a delayer is pretty clear.

P-edit: F-16, it was 3 AM in the morning. I was trying to give a read on someone with hundreds of posts. The major post was the 'meltdown' and seemed to be key to people's reads. Whatever people might think, I'm not actually a bitch IRL, and my knee jerk reaction to seeing someone upset isn't to pick at them. So reading that post, it took a lot to remain as objective as possible. Yes, I hedged. I didn't have a good sense of his overall play. But if you stop damn well cherry picking it, you'll see that I'm leaning town on him even at that point. Overnight I read up more closely and concluded my instinct was right and he was town. I spent a decent bit of time talking to Tammy about that.

I've been suckered a lot the last six months by artificial words, and I'm trying to step back and not sidle off when something hits my positive emotions. So I considered all the angles. Why are you trying to act like my laying out the possibilities

before I drew my conclusions

is scummy while ignoring those conclusions?

Okay, you came into the game and started pushing Mastin making a case on him while he was about to be lynched. I question how you were so certain about it. There were a million pages to read and your focus was suddenly on Mastin rather than a more general view of the game. You seem too confident about your Mastin read and about your read on me.

I've posted a lot over the course of a few days and have over 400 posts which you never even talked about. You picked up on my back-and-forth with Tammy and focused on how I wasn't making any logical sense at a point where I was clearly not reacting logically and I can't refute any of your points.

I also fail to see how you came to the conclusion that "this is scum F-16" when I am clearly not scum and you are so certain about the read without even interacting with me or looking at my body of work beyond early D3.

Did Clyton claim his real role (not Watcher) in the neighborhood?

[CarbonFiber]

Ok so this is whats bothering me.

CF is claiming shit that I have no idea is fake or true about my N1 actions. Tammy is going "oooh shiny I wonder if this means something" when it really does not.
CF is creating a sideshow about Penguin_Alien who looks REALLY PRETTY TOWN and he is not really working towards the multiple claims that just came pouring out that need to be resolved Today. Instead I get some hedgy "Well there COULD be some godlike bullshit in the game that AP might be and might have played 100% perfectly to match with everyone's role results, including my own"

Magenta apparently hasn't read a singular post from Today.

Stalin is Stallin' which is pretty par for the course.

REMINDER: KATSUKI CLAIMED I LIED ABOUT MY ROLE. THAT IS A GUILTY.
I AM CONFIRMED TOWN AND BOTH OF MY NIGHT ACTIONS HAVE BEEN CONFIRMED BY DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

Hey AP, I get that you are impatient and if you are town, it makes sense to you but let the rest of us figure stuff out. The deadline isn't today.

My N1 action is not part of my role. It is part of someone else's role and they sent it to me (like a message). I am pretty sure who it is but I'll leave it to them to out.

My case on Penguin - I find it imperative to make progress on figuring her out. I am not interesting in the sole contribution this day phase being you and Kats.

[CarbonFiber]

Summary of the last thirty pages:

Tammy: falcons scum!
Fallcon: no you
Tammy: no you
Falcon how dare you?
Tammy how dare you!
Falcon: ommygodiknewit
Tammy: maybe you're not
Falcon: you're not either
*hugs* d'awwwwwwww

LOL. You are either going to be incredibly amused while reading the neighborhood QT after the game or slightly pissed off. I hope it is the former.

[CarbonFiber]

Falcon - Penguin's not hedging on her town read of Bro though. She pretty much keeps reemphasizing reasons why he's town including his reaction to her town reading him. She thinks scum him would have capitalized on it while his kind of paranoid reaction leans town.

Okay, just to be clear, Clyton claimed something other than watcher in the neighborhood, right?

Because that was part of the reason I got it into my head that Penguin is for sure scum because Nacho's commuter role, Mastin's bulletproof, Penguin's watcher role, and Mac's bodyguard felt like way too many townies the scum can't kill. But I was thinking about Stalin saying that they may not work on everyone which negates a lot of their power.

I am still not sure how the game makes any sense if Penguin is town. Assuming AP and BRO-Desp are also town, and Cupcake is scum. PV is confirmed as vig, and if he shoots again, that's pretty much a town confirmation as I doubt scum would have more than one extra kill. In any case, the janitoring seems like a good way to nerf the vig and his target made sense from a town POV. Also, I am assuming Breakfast is town. That leaves three more scum among RG, Fox, Magenta, and Nacho. I'm not entirely sure if the game makes sense that way. Sure, Nacho could be bussing Orc, and Cupcake is scum with them leaving the last scum to be Fox/RG. That is not entirely implausible actually.

[CarbonFiber]

Yes, F-16, I claimed my real role in the neighborhood. No, I'm not claiming it to you.

I was confident on mastin being scum. I'd just come off a game where I found scum-mastin and hedged too much. I took a lot of shit for it on both sides, both having my read undermined during the day phase and then being told that I wasn't firm enough about it after the scum flip. So yeah, I came in here determined not to make the same mistake. Ended up making a different mistake in the process, and I'll eat crow for it in post-game.

Do you seriously want me to do a PBPA of you? Because quite frankly that sounds like hell on earth. And I don't get to touch anything you've said on D3 because you weren't logical? The hell?

That's not what I was saying at all. I don't expect a post by post analysis of my ISO. I expected some sort of accusation based on why my body of work pointed to scum as opposed to "

the back and forth you had with Tammy looks scummy and here's why you've been illogical.

"

I've done a whole bunch of things I wouldn't be able to fake:

1) Counterclaim miller on the most notoriously difficult to lynch player on the site and push a wagon on them. Why the heck would I do that? And how would I know that they are not actually a miller? If I did that as scum, I would expect to be vigged immediately upon their miller flip because I would expect them to be telling the truth about their role.

2) Spend a ton of my effort pushing Mastin when as scum, I usually go with the flow and don't overextend myself - you've seen this in Wicked. Mostly, I let town dictate who they want to lynch and take the fall for it.

3) Most of my D1 analysis is nothing like my analysis as scum either and above the level I can convincingly fake as scum.

Your reaction to me was much different from your reaction in Cowardly Hider though where you immediately tried to placate me and get me change my mind and I'm not seeing that here at all which points to you being town. But I can't for the life of me figure out why you are shutting down all of my questions the way you are doing ("do you want me to do a PBPA?" "I can't bring up D3 because you weren't logical?" etc) because that's not what I meant at all.

[CarbonFiber]

The thing that pisses me off most about this day is that I can see AP gloating over getting me lynched despite a guilty.

Fuck after what I did to you and bro you guys enjoy it because its not gonna last.

If it wasn't for BRO-Desp, I'd be pushing pretty hard for an AP lynch right now. How do you explain their result on AP?

[CarbonFiber]

How would penguin being a watcher be someone scum can't kill?

Yes, she claimed her role to me, and part of it is confirmed to me.

I don't really want to talk about it anymore than that right now.

No, I mean whoever she watches is a player that scum can't kill (analogous to a doc).

[CarbonFiber]

YOUR ACTION EITHER FAILED OR YOU'RE LYING BUDDY #1

CHELSEA TORN
TOWN DELAYER

N1 MASTIN
N2 AP

Explain what delayer means?

ACTION DELAYED BY ONE DAY/NIGHT CYCLE

AKA, THERE IS NO WAY AP COULD HAVE POSSIBLY GOTTEN A RESULT LAST NIGHT. HIS ACTION LAST NIGHT SHOULD NOT HAVE RESOLVED UNTIL N3.

I'm not sure if this means the actual visiting action or the entire action results included.

Either way, I am not seeing why AP would fake a result on Stalin if he never got any results back even as scum because that would be an unnecessary lie.

[CarbonFiber]

despbro is tracker, and thus saw AP take the action, however Panda's delayer role gives AP the result the day after, instead day of. I think it's possible that AP is faking the results while still being truthful about who he targeted

He's saying he's a tracker who gets no result on replicas though and is confirming ap as town.

But it is still possible he is a GF type role that appears as "not a replica" to all cops just like I as a miller appear as a replica to all cops. And then if tracked, he chooses who he supposedly visited.

[CarbonFiber]

But then in order for him to know his night one action should fail, he'd have to be scum with nacho.

He probably is but putting that aside for the sake of hypotheticals: Maybe he also has a visiting role and he figured out that they are a commuter? Or one of his scumbuddies did? It actually makes sense that he would want to give a no result because it lessens the number of "confirmations" that he has to do.

Could he actually be town though? He spent the entire game trying to find new and interesting ways to paint me as scum and ignoring what's incredibly obvious. That, and Mastin was near 100% sure about it.

[CarbonFiber]

On tablet, sorry for massive quote.

I don't know about the miller part. You're right that that is pretty odd. I can think of scenarios that explain it without you being honest either. But I want to step back and think about them first.

Your analysis...I think we saw how well you fake analysis as scum, or don't fake it, as the case may be.

Frankly your not being on the mastin lynch looks exactly like you not overextending yourself.

I need to take a deep breath, calm down, and think things through.

The "not being on the Mastin lynch" part doesn't mean anything. I am often incredibly slow to vote and vote a lot close to deadline on a wagon I think will lead to a lynch. I don't generally vote for "pressure" or vote early. There are exceptions of course but me not voting someone I eventually want lynched is fairly routine for town-me.

[CarbonFiber]

WHY THE FUCK WOULD THERE BE A ROLE THAT'S STRONGER THAN COP ANYWAYS?! THINK ABOUT IT, IT ESSENTIALLY GIVES ALIGNMENT RESULT + ROLE CONFIRMATION OF TOWNIES
Actually the entire claim just seems wack.

While this is true, the way BRO-Desp acted in the neighborhood indicated they have an awesome role for all these reasons:

1) D1, they lurked. Then they voted Rancid and lurked some more. I asked them why and they said it is because they wanted Rancid to gladiate them and didn't want to be active and obvtown so that Rancid chooses someone else. I took this to mean that they had a confirmable or an overall awesome role. This was way back early D1.

2) D2, I asked Desp why he wouldn't just talk about his suspicions in thread and he responded by saying that he is amused at all the ways scum are trying to set them up and doesn't care to be transparent in thread. The way he said it felt like he had no fear at all about being set up and that he could claim and talk his way out of anything.

[CarbonFiber]

I am starting to think Penguin is town because this probably wouldn't be the way scum-her would interact with me. I doubt she would continue pushing the issue after I said I had finals etc if she knew it was true unless she wanted revenge for Wicked. BUT, if she thought I was BSing and thought she found a tell for me being OTT as scum, she'd push it for everything it's worth.

[CarbonFiber]

I actually have mild concerns that Katsuki and AP are scum together and this was done with the intent of "confirming" AP should Katsuki flip scum. That would be the best way for him to dodge the lynches after Mastin's dying words. BUT, it doesn't make sense to do that when they could just mislynch someone and get to MYLO and mislynch again for the win so that's pretty much really out there.

I have concerns Nacho and AP are scum together. This is almost entirely a tinfoil hat theory but it is possible they could have enjoyed creating a ton of chaos this game and Nacho asked AP to hydra with him. Then they talked about it in the game thread. It is possible they did it outside the game but it is entirely plausible this is the game they planned to take down Mastin in a grand fashion and talked about how well they worked together etc.

[CarbonFiber]

Mastin's reads aren't extremely helpful besides a few strong ones like AP and Nacho. At some point or the other, he accused nearly the entire living playerlist of being scum. Rancid wanted to lynch The Fox and The Hound as well as Clyton citing Cephrir as a "flow-busser" who would bus if the flow went against his teammates. That makes me wonder about Penguin/Fox team.

I don't think BRO-Desp would kill Pie. He was never going to change his mind about them. He had the air of certainty and I knew regardless of the Mastin/Rancid flips, he wasn't going to change his mind on me or BRO-Desp. Yggdra kill also points against JSU-scum. JSU had much better more "obvious" targets like Titan/Nacho to kill whose kills can be explained purely based on player skill and would get them no backlash. The last thing they'd want to do is kill PieInFreezer.

Nacho killing Pie makes perfect sense. He saw the interactions between me and Pie and I think he'd want to take away the player that I'm using as my touchstone/stake-in-the-ground/rock-solid-read as it fits in with a scum-Nacho style of thinking. Nacho's priority would be to take out Titan, Stalin, and me in that order based on NY169 but if he saw the emerging paranoia in the neighborhood, he might want to delay those kills so that a distraction can form and he would still vividly remember Pie leading the town to victory in Empire's large and would know that he can keep himself engaged and not become even as the game drags on. The most likely kill N1 was probably Titan with Mac dying as a result because Mac had Titan as one of his strongest townreads.

[CarbonFiber]

Supertown

RBD
Titan
Breakfast With Stalin
Kagura

Town

Clyton
RG
orcinus? would like your opinion on this

Fucked if I know

Mastin
AP
Just Sheep Us

Lol, who?

LordBusiness
Cupcake

Scumreads

CarbonFiber
Fox and the Hound

P5
Yukari

This was Mac's last reads list that I am going off of. We know he didn't protect RBD because PV shot him. Titan's next on the list followed by Stalin. Although it's possible that he wanted to protect Stalin because he was working closely with them despite the strength of his read (I'm not even sure if it is seriatim anyways). I still think scum would want to shoot you over Stalin because we were working together D1 while Stalin and I struggled a bit to work smoothly.

[CarbonFiber]

EDIT

Rancid wanted to lynch The Fox and The Hound as well as

AP

citing Cephrir as a "flow-busser" who would bus if the flow went against his teammates. That makes me wonder about

AP

/Fox team.

But they suspected Clyton as well although not associating him into a potential scumteam.

[CarbonFiber]

We're still close to the same page except I have Magenta and Cupcake switched around. But we're lynching either Cupcake or AP today and that should help clear things up.

[CarbonFiber]

Ffery, how does your read on AP change after seeing Mastin flip?

On D2, you had Mastin and AP as scumreads. Did you think they were scum together? I am assuming you didn't considering you said your mind was blown when I accused them of being scum together.

Oddly, despite my scumteam guess, I came away with more certainty on AP scum after seeing Mastin and Rancid flip town because it felt like they were town that legitimately had a scumread on AP and wanted him dead pretty badly.

[CarbonFiber]

Also, with regards to where Ceph placed his attention, I felt he gave me most of his attention.

[CarbonFiber]

Looking back, he spent quite a bit of time critisizing me in my interactions with Tammy for a conflict that was resolved by the time he came in as well as PV which makes me wonder if he was trying to buddy up to Titan. But then he said he wasn't fully caught up and that some of his posts don't have a point to them which made me wonder if it is just a playstyle issue. I had some of the same problems with reading him in NY169 where I didn't really think he was trying to get anywhere and some of his interactions with me felt incredibly scummy. I sort of let FourTrouble's read influence mine because he was fairly certain on them being town but a lot has happened since then. Also, FT has a tendency to occasionally reciprocate townreads and scumreads and Fox was townreading us at the time he was townreading them. BUT, I also linked Ceph's meta to him citing my inability to read Ceph and he was pretty sure that they were town as well.

Personally, I am focusing more on DV. I liked his Rancid vote at the time partly because I was assuming Rancid was scum. With his townflip, I am wondering how likely it is that scum-DV would make a grandiose statement and cast his vote there and deal with the intense OMGUS from Rancid. I didn't like his recent questions to me that I spoilered back to him as none of them felt thought provoking or something that I can't answer convincingly as scum. They were mostly mechanical and clarification questions that I responded to in 5363.

[CarbonFiber]

Falcon - Did you let the neighborhood know about ffery's track night one and where it came from?

I crumbed it but I didn't explicitly claim it.

[CarbonFiber]

Arthur had DV/Ceph as scum on day one due to his buddying of me. They're someone I wanted to reread as day one when I started to think that rancid and mastin were town, I thought that scum were town reading me. DV usually scum reads me when he's scum or throws up fake paranoia, but they seem a little too sure that I'm town.

Hi, I'm Cephrir, and this figuratively happens to me every single game. If it's any consolation I'm down to a mere ~95% at this point!

I don't understand this sentence.

I don't even know if I buy Falcon as scum. I just don't want to believe as scum he'd basically tell me knowing that I'm town that I've sucked this game, am deluded and can do better. I just don't think he'd go there. I just think that if he was scum, he'd know that when I say I'm lost I really mean that, and that he'd try to manipulate me in another way.

That doesn't seem particularly... anything?

Maybe not to you but it does to me. Falcon doesn't like being scum and though he'll definitely be aggressive when scum, I'm just not sure he'd say some of that. Falcon and I work well together in games and like playing together. And anyone who's played with me more than once knows that I'm rather sensitive at times, and have been especially so lately as I'm really needing a mafia break or to just be in one game or something right now and I've been pretty open about that. Not only that but anyone who has played town games with me knows that I put a lot of thought in games. Everything that I'm thinking doesn't even get posted in the thread but there's a lot that goes on away from the thread in terms of trying to figure the game out. So, a scum him would know all this and I'm just not sure a scum him would say that to me. He might mock me for waffling too much like he did Mina in Wicked, but I'm not even sure he'd do that considering it's so much of my play style and he's familiar with that. He might tell me I'm deluded for reading him as scum. He might even push me due to a perceived weakness he can exploit, but I'm just not sure he goes out of his way to say things to a town me that would cut a bit. Him thinking I'm scum and lashing out at me, I can see that, but him being scum I just think that he'd go about it differently.

[CarbonFiber]

Also, with regards to where Ceph placed his attention, I felt he gave me most of his attention.

And you think that was a good place for Ceph's attention given the game state?

Y'all attribute a lot more conscious decision making to me than I ever actually exhibit.

Rancid wanted to lynch The Fox and The Hound as well as AP citing Cephrir as a "flow-busser" who would bus if the flow went against his teammates. That makes me wonder about AP/Fox team.

You lost me pretty badly here.

Muffin claimed that your scum playstyle is similar to his meaning that you don't bus straight up but bus if the need arises which he termed as "flow-bussing." He said he voted for Hawk to see if you follow the vote and that you did and he concluded that you were scum from it. I'll pull the link in a bit.

[CarbonFiber]

I initially put the vote down on the Prohawk hydra for two reasons;

Partially because I thought they were scummy as fuck (which I'll get to in a minute) and partially because I had a scum read on FoxHound and I thought if I was right about Hawk being scum, FoxHound were going to bus them after I put my vote down on Hawk. Because Cephrir has a similar scum playstyle to mine in that he's not strictly a busser, but he's a flow-busser. When he senses weakness in a buddy and senses the flow of opinions tending towards a buddy, he jumps on the bus at an early venture for all the town cred it's worth. It's what I do as scum and I am fairly sure Cephrir is as adept as I am at reading flow since he does it as scum as well. I changed the flow of things slightly with my Hawk vote deliberately to see whether he was going to flow-bus Hawkie, and like clockwork, their vote came. I know it was DV who did it, but given he said Cephrir gave him the go-ahead, that's as good as Cephrir doing it.

When AP flips scum, FoxHound needs to be buried the next day.

And anyone who honestly thinks AP looks town from his entrance is either dumb or scum. Mastin is fucking right about AP. That wasn't a town entrance, and nothing he's done since then looks town.

Prohawk was scum. AP is scum.

The only reason NOT to lynch them today is because BRO is basically the most obvscum he's even been in a game.

Here's where he points it out.

[CarbonFiber]

Arthur had DV/Ceph as scum on day one due to his buddying of me. They're someone I wanted to reread as day one when I started to think that rancid and mastin were town, I thought that scum were town reading me. DV usually scum reads me when he's scum or throws up fake paranoia, but they seem a little too sure that I'm town.

Hi, I'm Cephrir, and this figuratively happens to me every single game. If it's any consolation I'm down to a mere ~95% at this point!

I don't understand this sentence.

I don't even know if I buy Falcon as scum. I just don't want to believe as scum he'd basically tell me knowing that I'm town that I've sucked this game, am deluded and can do better. I just don't think he'd go there. I just think that if he was scum, he'd know that when I say I'm lost I really mean that, and that he'd try to manipulate me in another way.

That doesn't seem particularly... anything?

Maybe not to you but it does to me. Falcon doesn't like being scum and though he'll definitely be aggressive when scum, I'm just not sure he'd say some of that. Falcon and I work well together in games and like playing together. And anyone who's played with me more than once knows that I'm rather sensitive at times, and have been especially so lately as I'm really needing a mafia break or to just be in one game or something right now and I've been pretty open about that. Not only that but anyone who has played town games with me knows that I put a lot of thought in games. Everything that I'm thinking doesn't even get posted in the thread but there's a lot that goes on away from the thread in terms of trying to figure the game out. So, a scum him would know all this and I'm just not sure a scum him would say that to me. He might mock me for waffling too much like he did Mina in Wicked, but I'm not even sure he'd do that considering it's so much of my play style and he's familiar with that. He might tell me I'm deluded for reading him as scum. He might even push me due to a perceived weakness he can exploit, but I'm just not sure he goes out of his way to say things to a town me that would cut a bit. Him thinking I'm scum and lashing out at me, I can see that, but him being scum I just think that he'd go about it differently.

I'm really, really sorry about this. I completely forgot that you needed a break from mafia at that time. And you are right that I wouldn't have said it as scum but said it as town because I thought you were scum and didn't think that it applied to the game at all because in a hypothetical world where you are scum, saying that your pushes sucked is irrelevant because they are supposed to. But thank you for understanding my thought process as opposed to saying I was scum because I was being hostile.

[CarbonFiber]

Falcon - Here's DV's iso in Gundam Seed

I thought the way he went after majiffy was pretty strong. It didn't have the flair, but it had a bit of certainty.

I'll check it out in a little bit and get back on it.

[CarbonFiber]

Nacho asked AP to hydra with him.

Oh well CF asked Tammy to hydra with him so they must also be scum together.

Tammy/CF/Ap/Nacho scumteam 2016, vote for it!! (that would be a swag scumteam though)

Re NK Spec: Did anybody in this game other than me (and maybe Tammy) NOT have a townread on Yggdra? I mean. The kill makes sense purely from a "this player is literally never getting lynched" vantage. And if they were rolecopped on N1, its totally plausible they were killed for being a PR of ??? magnitude.

I think that Mac would be far far more likely to protect Stalin or Kagura or even RBD over me.

He clearly did not protect RBD. If he targeted Kagura it would have failed.
Im pretty sure a ROLESTOPPER BODYGUARD would 9/10 times target the COP. I mean. am I the only one thinking about this? I was probably shot on N1. I wasnt on most people's shortlists until D2 for w/e reason.

Oddly, despite my scumteam guess, I came away with more certainty on AP scum after seeing Mastin and Rancid flip town because it felt like they were town that legitimately had a scumread on AP and wanted him dead pretty badly.

Speaking of a constant barrage of ever-changning reasons to scurmead AP opportunistically, this post is pretty goddamn opportunistic. repeatedly call me scum with RBD/mastin over connections and then after they flip town, appeal to authority over their reads? But only some of their reads. Ya fuck that.

You were the star scumread of Mastin though for most of the game. I'm not going to ignore that someone who knows you well and can read you was consistently convinced you were scum for the majority of the game.

[CarbonFiber]

You were the star scumread of Mastin though for most of the game. I'm not going to ignore that someone who knows you well and can read you was consistently convinced you were scum for the majority of the game.

...

Why are you ignoring most of the game? Who's town? Who's scum? Where's that awesome Nacho reads-list?

[CarbonFiber]

CF is claiming shit that I have no idea is fake or true about my N1 actions. Tammy is going "oooh shiny I wonder if this means something" when it really does not.

CF is confirming that every action you've taken this game matches up with your claim.

And is still calling you scum.

Nacho asked AP to hydra with him.

WTF Nacho? I accused you of being scum for your and AP's hydra discussions in thread which you didn't respond to. Why are acting surprised I brought this up?

[CarbonFiber]

Thoughts on Tammy's

disorganized rambling

awesome reads list:

Carbon fiber - *some* of his meta reasoning for reads on me doesn't feel right! and that niggles.

Can you elaborate on this? What were you referring to?

Magenta - I still like the way orci interacted with me day one. It had nothing of the feel of the way he interacted with me as scum in vesperia. Granted he could be changing up his scum techniques from that game like he did for others in that game, but I had some strong really valid reasons for him being scum in that game although this whole tempo of this game is different so. I *suppose* he could have voted me to provoke a reaction and when he didn't get one and after I said I thought he was town from vibes decided to drop it! but idk. Also I *do* like the way that he handled cage fight. I liked his interaction with me and he clearly thought he was going to be able to talk. Not exactly sure what to think about Maria's recent posts and having me as town though I'd really like to take her orci has you as town and I'd like to learn the markers for why I misread you thing at face value. Paranoia concerning a bussing nacho to make the self-govern thing and make them look town still skitters.

I actually liked Mara's initial interaction with you and the whole "I want to work together" felt town and I think she would be inclined to avoid you as scum. I didn't like her initial asking me about my Clyton read and it felt like a really odd thing to push but the later accusing me for giving a summary to Penguin felt town and like she genuinely believed it. I am concerned about Nacho bussing as well since it seems like too much of a co-incidence that the D1 governor got lynched D1 but then Nacho would know that it would look fishy. I also didn't like Nacho's lack of follow up after being certain.

How has AP been collaborative? He's funny which makes me think town but he's AP.

PA - lean town here. She feels unfiltered in the neighborhood, but I've been a bad neighbor the past couple days so I need to fix that to firm up this read. She's also part of claim dream state. I will say that if penguin is scum, she is scum with someone who knows me and gave Clyton advice for how to manipulate me. The role usage makes sense from a town perspective and part of it is confirmed to me, dream state is toying with how I can use that part in the most effective way. Anyway, I hope to have this firmed up a bit. Did I already say I'm a bad neighbor? I have some catching up in there to do.

I am really paranoid about the "unfiltered thoughts" and the pointing out things about me she doesn't like. Reminds me of how sure everyone was of Ghatokaca-town in Wicked based on the neighborhood. It feels like she is saying all these things in secret and the rest of us can't see what it is.

I need to revisit RG and The Fox and The Hound as well and I'll probably do that in a few days.

[CarbonFiber]

That leaves three more scum among RG, Fox, Magenta, and Nacho. I'm not entirely sure if the game makes sense that way. Sure, Nacho could be bussing Orc, and Cupcake is scum with them leaving the last scum to be Fox/RG. That is not entirely implausible actually.

Scum are probably among penguin/RG/Fox/Cupcake/Magenta.
I think Penguin currently looks the towniest out of that entire group.

And Cupcake decides to all of a sudden think "Hey, let me try to fake-claim results on AP to get him lynched!"

[CarbonFiber]

And is still calling you scum.

And you see this as town thought process?

Yes, I do. I see it more likely that CF would be unwilling to let go of his last major scumread from Day 1 as opposed to CF-scum trying to strongarm someone who is, for all intensive purposes, confirmed town.

It is not that he is my last major scumread. It is that Mastin and Rancid flipping town was a wake up call and I realized that they wanted AP dead all along. If one of Mastin/Rancid flipped town, I wouldn't have gone after the other because they said that the other was town. But BOTH flipping town and telling us to get AP dead? That only increased my suspicion rather than throw me off.

[CarbonFiber]

And is still calling you scum.

And you see this as town thought process?

Yes, I do. I see it more likely that CF would be unwilling to let go of his last major scumread from Day 1 as opposed to CF-scum trying to strongarm someone who is, for all intensive purposes, confirmed town.

It is not that he is my last major scumread. It is that Mastin and Rancid flipping town was a wake up call and I realized that they wanted AP dead all along. If one of Mastin/Rancid flipped town, I wouldn't have gone after the other because they said that the other was town. But BOTH flipping town and telling us to get AP dead? That only increased my suspicion rather than throw me off.

And all the corroboration of his claimed night actions/results fit where in this?

They are curently sitting in the lolcabdgame bin.

[CarbonFiber]

As in, the correct response when role information directly contradicts your reads isn't "oh, I guess my reads are right and lolcabdgame!"

But it seems so implausible that AP is acting the way he has been and is actually town. That and Mastin's read. Unless AP is doing a mega-troll on us and thought "hey, let me play to my scum-meta to troll Mastin and also spend a ton of time accusing obvtown of being scum, that should be fun, fun, fun!"

[CarbonFiber]

@ Tammy, still want to hear what those niggles on your meta are about.

[CarbonFiber]

As in, the correct response when role information directly contradicts your reads isn't "oh, I guess my reads are right and lolcabdgame!"

But it seems so implausible that AP is acting the way he has been and is actually town.

That and Mastin's read. Unless AP is doing a mega-troll on us and thought "hey, let me play to my scum-meta to troll Mastin and also spend a ton of time accusing obvtown of being scum, that should be fun, fun, fun!"

"But it's a really strong read!"

But it is so unlikely Mastin was wrong.

[CarbonFiber]

@ Tammy, still want to hear what those niggles on your meta are about.

Oh I don't want to tell you.

>_<

>_>

<_<

You got the tonal things right though! And that there are things I wouldn't have said as scum!

@ Tammy, still want to hear what those niggles on your meta are about.

Well, I am going to find out on my own anyways. I may occasionally think a null-tell is alignment indicative but I am pretty quick to re-adjust. I know for sure that you can twitch at people as scum for instance. I wonder how long it will take for me to figure you out if you draw scum in a game where I am town. I am betting 25 posts.

[CarbonFiber]

Why would you think she'd be inclined to ignore me as scum? She planned to push me do yo paranoia from previous games in vesperia.

Mara explicitly said something like "Dont worry, I'll not talk to you" until later on when she was addressed by tammy.

Everytime Mara faced off with Tammy, it didn't end well for her. Lynched D1 in Swagtown and Tales of Vesperia, fooled by scum-Tam in Stacking the Deck and Too Many Heads. I had the feeling that scum-her would want to avoid interactions so that Tammy's townread on Orc would stay. But, a town-her would want to work with Tammy in developing reads. While she did initially avoid her, I think what she actually wanted was to work with her and it felt really genuine.

---

WANT NACHO READS LIST NOW

[CarbonFiber]

And Cupcake decides to all of a sudden think "Hey, let me try to fake-claim results on AP to get him lynched!"

Remind me again why you aren't considering the possibility that Katsuki is bussing me? I recall (you?) someone bringing it up and TBH Im surprised you somehow actually believe KAtsuki is town out of all this. I just dont get how you are slicing the game state in such a way that you think Katsuki is anything other than lying at this point. Your resistance to thinking KAtsuki is scum is more mind-blowing than your blind insistence tha I am scum. I can almost see the confirmation bias on me. Almost. But Katsuki? Why the hell are you married to that townread?

It is not that he is my last major scumread. It is that Mastin and Rancid flipping town was a wake up call and I realized that they wanted AP dead all along. If one of Mastin/Rancid flipped town, I wouldn't have gone after the other because they said that the other was town. But BOTH flipping town and telling us to get AP dead? That only increased my suspicion rather than throw me off.

Really, it was? Lets see, you still think PA is scummy. You still think I a m scummy. You are still waffling on Nacho and/or think hes scum with me, I cant actually tell. Nothing about your posting suggests that you reanalyzed after those townflips. All that happened is your reads stayed the same but for different reasons.

p-edit: Oh. I saw he brought that up before and I cannot actually believe he asked Tammy to hydra with him in this same game and is calling me scum over this. Im seriously going to just heave-ho this laptop right out the window if he flips town. So

@Cabd: preemptive permanent V/LA for me if CF ever flips town, tia

I don't know what to make of Katsuki. You are talking to me like I should have all the answers when I really don't. I had a townread on Katsuki based on meta. You hate it, you want to shove it out the window, cool. But meta nearly always worked for me in the past so I'm going to use it.

The hydra thing: The way you were discussing it felt like you had talked about it before. I am speculating at this point but it isn't a major reason for thinking you or Nacho are scum.

[CarbonFiber]

Did you not care about CF doing exactly this? I mean sure CF wasn't AS waffly but he still kept wanting to lynch mastin literally the entire day but wouldnt actually do it. And simultaneously expressed fear that the clock would run out and we would wagon a lurker again.

This was explained already. VCA doesn't work on me and will only leave you frustrated. I am slow to vote and withhold my vote a lot of the time.

[CarbonFiber]

I felt like if Desperado's reads list was a woman (or a man), I would leave the life I have completely and elope with it.

I still don't see you calling anyone scum or giving any reasons why they are. For instance, why is Fox, or RG scum? You say Cupcake is scum and you seem to think Magenta is scum as well. With Penguin a potential fifth suspect if one of your scumreads are wrong.

[CarbonFiber]

Convince me? Seriously, convince me. Stalin is confirmed. PV is claiming vig so he gets a get out of lynch free card for the time being. Titan I buy. Falcon I really really need to be sold on. Nacho I really want to believe is town because everything hes saying matches my feelings, but I dont feel amazing about writing him off just yet.

This is where I am at today. I'm willing to put all of that group off the table. And I'm going to also put magenta off the table because that's one of our bet the farm reads. And I'm going to look at the other 5 and figure out which ones I am willing to lynch today.

I'll start over on day 4 if I'm around for it.

Who would you add to that list today? What strong town read of yours is missing?

I don't think we're going to lynch anyone other than Cupcake or AP today. Why would we?

While I am townreading Cupcake, I realize he's probably going to be the lynch unless something groundbreaking comes up considering Desp-BRO is contradicting his claimed night action.

[CarbonFiber]

We're not lynching AP today, sorry Falcon.

I feel like Im just being a voice lost in the wind about him.

---

I get that we probably won't lynch him over Cupcake considering Desp-BRO seemingly confirming him.

I am talking more about the fact that no one besides AP/Cupcake is going to be lynched today - at all. I find it unlikely this day will end in anything other than Cupcake being lynched.

[CarbonFiber]

I don't think we're going to lynch anyone other than Cupcake or AP today. Why would we?

If you truly believe this, then for the love of god, why are you spending so much effort making connection cases to me on Nacho, PA, Fox(, did I miss one?). Why are you spending so much effort posing hypotheticals on something that is going to end up obvious shortly. You've spent as much time talking about Penguin and trying to rolefish her today than actually talking about Panda other than "I dont see the scum motivation for Kats faking this guilty" and "I dont see the scum motivation for AP faking this innocent result"

I am trying to figure out Penguin's alignment as well as yours and Kats. If I find anything groundbreaking, sure the direction of the day will change.

I was just curious about Ffery pulling up a POE list and trying to figure out who to lynch when that question of who to lynch has already been decided.

The difference is that I am not considering Penguin or anyone else as an actual viable lynch.

[CarbonFiber]

Desp-BRO seemingly confirming him.

And this is something you need to resolve if you are going to keep posturing about my scumcard in literally every post and case you make.

DespBRO did not SEEMINGLY confirm me. Its not like "Oh Ya we can confirm that AP visited Stalin". Its not "Ya we followed AP and he used an investigative role"

The are ACTUALLY confirming me as town in their claim. Its not even like "we got a not-replica on AP, he could be a GF". Its even deeper because they are claiming that their role FAILS on replicas. Like. I dont know, maybe since

Ive never been in a Cabd game before

I dont understand the paranoia of some bizarre gamebreakingly godlike scum role existing, but REALLY. From my perspective, I just read the posts trying to speculate on how I could be scum despite all the neon signs around me indicating that I am town and that my night actions 100% match what everyone would expect.

Yet you just kinda ignore all that and paint an absurd role on me that could maybe justify like several different things indicating that Im town to match what your agenda of pushing me as scum and making endless connection cases on other people to me despite me being confirmed town by someone who you are SUPER CONFIDENT about being town. I just..."seemingly? SEEMINGLY? Get out.

Bolded is the problem. Cabd had a GF type role that could choose what results it wants to give out to investigators.

[CarbonFiber]

Your attitude towards ending the day feels anti-town as well. You did get a cop confirmed double self-targeting doc mislynched while hurrying along the day phase just like you are doing now. Why are you acting like everything is so clear-cut and expecting no one to be paranoid? The paranoia may not be justified if you are town, but you acting like you don't inspire paranoia feels off.

[CarbonFiber]

@ PV, I am not seeing how role results confirm me either tbh (although I'm obvtown so).

I am assuming the players you want to lynch are in: Penguin, RG, Fox, Nacho?

[CarbonFiber]

I just asked Cabd if a Tracker would be able to see an action if that action were successfully Delayed on the same night. The answer was no.

Katsuki is confirmed to have not Delayed me

Okay. Let's work out all the other possible ways that his action could have failed.

[CarbonFiber]

Katsuki, full claim everything about your role: who it works on, who it doesn't, what its restrictions are, and whether you are male/female, or child/adult.

[CarbonFiber]

F-16, have you found a situation where it makes sense for you to have the reads you currently have?
Or are you still looking?

I don't know. I have a project due in 5 hours that I need to work on. Can you do me a favor and ignore all of my posting until then? It'll encourage me to not play mafia when I ought not to be.

[CarbonFiber]

F-16, have you found a situation where it makes sense for you to have the reads you currently have?
Or are you still looking?

Also, quit discrediting me. It seems like instead of letting me figure stuff out, you are creating a massive distraction by making fun of the notion of figuring stuff out.

[CarbonFiber]

Are you scum-claiming?

[CarbonFiber]

I am with you but unless we can figure out why/how JSU is confirming AP, you are probably going to wind up lynched.

[CarbonFiber]

What are you frustrated about? Katsuki is about to get lynched. You are getting what you want regardless of my doubts about your affiliation.

[CarbonFiber]

CF, my outstanding issue is you acting all high and mighty on the JSU read (the two brain cells quote) when Tammy was an even stronger read the day previously which you were going back on at the time. I don't understand how one can claim that only stupidity could lead to not townreading a certain player after legitimately having an experience such as that with someone who was previously your strongest townread.

This is something I already explained a ton of times. I didn't literally mean most of what I initially wrote early D3 and I certainly don't think not townreading JSU is stupid. If you caught up like you say you did, you'd realize that because I explained about a dozen times that I reacted irrationally because I was stressed at that time irl and was also making up scumteam possibilities in the neighborhood.

[CarbonFiber]

Penguin, no two non-AP players have claimed to be in the same neighborhood so I probably won't activate one. But it is compulsive and I have to pick a title each day so I'll probably pick a random one that AP isn't in.

You said in your post before the previous one that you wanted to talk to me. What did you want to discuss?

[CarbonFiber]

Penguin, no two non-AP players have claimed to be in the same neighborhood so I probably won't activate one. But it is compulsive and I have to pick a title each day so I'll probably pick a random one that AP isn't in.

You said in your post before the previous one that you wanted to talk to me. What did you want to discuss?

[CarbonFiber]

No, just don't want to give you the chance to manipulate people in neighborhoods.

[CarbonFiber]

Maybe not. But, his points are no reason to townread him either, and I would kinda like it if there were some decent and recent reasons to think you guys are town.

DV's points are part of the reason why I don't feel confident about reading him. It was a relief that you are part of the hydra, despite your scum game. :/

This is a read I'd totally defer to someone I think is town who has a track record of reading preferably both of you accurately.

If F-16 ever comes up for air I'd like his thoughts about this interaction.

I am focusing mostly on DV since I'm pretty bad at reading Cephrir and am deferring the read to FT.

What I initially found concerning about DV was that his take on the interaction between Titan and I wasn't really illuminating or helpful. I tend to scumhunt questions other players ask me and seeing how they are making me respond, and my responses to DV pretty much amounted to "no, I meant this, not that" which felt like very surface level questioning. I also didn't like the focus on a long-resolved conflict and it gave off the air of wanting to continue the conflict by bringing up quotes said in the heat of the moment as opposed to asking what my current thoughts are.

As for the interaction with you, I liked the scumhunting of you when seen in a vacuum and I like the push as to why you were accusing him of not having a presence when he didn't have it in previous games as well. But, what I didn't like was the focus on scumhunting you in the first place considering you were confirmed by one of Fox's townreads (AP). I get JSU confirmed AP, and I didn't buy it either even though JSU is a strong townread but I feel that the circumstances are different and given Fox's view of the gamestate, he should be treating you as near-confirmed town and looking elsewhere.

I am not exactly sure what you are referring to with the noise benefiting The Fox and the Hound. I certainly didn't feel that the interaction between me and Titan was noise except for my initial shocked reaction and a few more posts after that. But once I returned and started interacting with Tammy more smoothly, I was able to solidify a read more firmly and I think she was able to as well and I wouldn't classify my later posts or any of Tammy's posts as noise but rather as productive and useful discussion. So, I am not sure why you consider it noise in the first place (save my initial reaction which I admit was noisy), let alone discuss how Ceph and DV are using it. I don't get your definition of "noise" since I feel like you enjoyed a lot of the noise in the game from Rancid while calling out other players on being noisy.

I do think that the interactions between Mastin, Rancid, AP created a lot of noise and inflated the size of the day and FoxHound sort of flew under the radar there. However, I also like DV's latest catchup walls and it feels like he is genuinely trying to figure out the game. I've scheduled a more extensive meta-dive on DV that should hopefully make things clearer.

----

@ DV, if you have info that there are multiple roleblockers in the game, I think that makes a crucial difference in whether or not Katsuki is lynched today so you should definitely out it.

[CarbonFiber]

I am focusing mostly on DV since I'm pretty bad at reading Cephrir and am deferring the read to FT.

This seems like a hasty generalization after one game, in which you were reading me correctly at first and then switched.

The thing that seems kind of like information here, that you asked for at the end, is that we can't be roleblocked by players with a certain attribute. Admittedly, blah blah Cabd blah, but that suggests multiple roleblockers. I'd be more sympathetic if it didn't seem like there were two around already.

NY169 was probably one of the worse tunnels I've gotten into on your slot lynching the player that replaced you after multiple days worth of tunneling and thinking that a lot of what you said couldn't come from town.

A lot of your posts here pinged me oddly for some reason or the other but I'm mostly ignoring those pings because I got similar ones to your posts in NY169. I don't know if it is way you phrase things or how you arrive at your conclusions, or the tone of your questions that inspires paranoia in me but I am setting it aside this game because you are in a hydra and I can still try to get a read on your partner.

[CarbonFiber]

Okay, the neighborhood discussion isn't really going anywhere so I'll post this here. Nacho, I've been thinking about your play for a while and I feel quite sure that you are scum based on how you are approaching this game:

1) You as town generally have solid suspects and a direction to go to in a game. You are fairly certain in your scumreads and find scummy things about them as opposed to mere POE which you have been doing in this game.

2) Your passion comes in bursts when you are scum. It peaks and falls because even though you can replicate it, you can't consistently keep it up for extended periods of time as scum. As town, it comes much more naturally and your pushes also feel a lot more genuine and forceful like you really believe in your scumreads. This happened only once so far in this game with your push on Mastin but once Mastin flipped town, your passion evaporated and you fell back onto POE. You push Cupcake with little conviction simply being logical and reasonable about it rather than show true passion. You show no aggression elsewhere or genuinely attempt to solve the game beyond saying that these people are town and POEing the rest. There is no real push or scumhunting into the people you think are scum.

3) Your contribution to the game has been sorely lacking even accounting for time constraints. Your most memorable part in this game has been to show up mid-D1, call Mastin town, show up at deadline and derail a wagon on Rancid driving it onto Orc. Your contribution D2 has been the Mastin push. I remember you saying that you wouldn't blow your cover on someone that you can read unless you were sure about winning the 1v1. The timing of your Mastin attack definitely came at a time when you were assured victory.

[CarbonFiber]

Well, you can always decide to trust me if it makes things easier for you!

Also, I have serious concerns about Nacho. Not paranoia but feeling that he is more likely scum than not.

[CarbonFiber]

I mean where's the Nacho from Z-Mafia who persistently pushed Wisdom, defended Baldeagle and RedCoyote, and pushed JasonT1981?

Where's the Nacho from Too Many Heads where he pushed the crap out of Tammy/Fish D1.

Where's the obvtown Nacho from BB:HoH who stampeded through the scumteam like a beast on steroids?

All I am seeing is controlled aggression, convenient and safe pushes and massive use of POE. He can't even find reasons to call Ceph and DV scum besides "everyone else is townier than you, so you could be scum."

[CarbonFiber]

There isn't a player who has shown significant aggression in this game day towards solving anything else, with possible exceptions in you and Tammy (because you had what you thought were incredible revelations of a strong townread being scum) and Fox (who hasn't done shit this game for years in a half and is finally, finally getting invested). DV knows what I'm saying when I tell him he needs to post more if he wants to become a strong townread: his lack of posting isn't scummy, but it leaves gaping holes in understanding his thought process when it happens whereas the strong townreads I have contain a full picture of their thoughts on the entire gamestate at any time.

I am talking about you, not other players. Everytime I've seen you be obvtown, it is always the sheer

excitement

at catching scum that I feel is lacking here. There is no energy or enthusiasm coming from you. You really never showed any inclination to sort Penguin who seems to be somewhat null to you. You didn't interact with Mara at all when her slot is supposedly a scumread to see where she is coming from and talking to her. I don't see you talking to Fox waiting to see if it is a push you want to see through or if they can convince you that they are town.

[CarbonFiber]

I let bork take the reins for most of Day 1. This was when I was in my swing of serious time restraints, decided to dedicate a majority of my time elsewhere in games. Since I've shown up mid-Day 1, I've been fully invested and I don't think anyone can argue otherwise. Even today, where there's an obvious lynch that probably should have happened 5 days ago (but we're dragging out for the benefit of you, Tammy, Fox), I've still been a major player in the game day. I defused your hilarious paranoia slap fest, and I knock down whatever fucked up conspiracy theories that people bring up for Cupcake-scum.

You always play the mediator as scum too so you didn't really have any other choice on how to approach Tammy's and my mutual paranoia. You knew it would end the way it did and if you had reacted in any other way (by pushing one of us for instance), it would have exposed you as scum. I am not seeing it as alignment indicative although I did like you getting me into the neighborhood to talk about it.

Where's the Nacho reads list with reasons attached by the way? I want to know why you are reading players the way you are beyond agreeing with Desp.

[CarbonFiber]

And this is actually hilarious because I've been anything but controlled this game? You've seen my "controlled aggression" as scum from the type of view that comes very, very rarely: I haven't really let anyone in to a view of my scumgame like that with the sole exception of mastin (who got an extremely close look at my old scumgame). The differences aren't in consistency: I'm not a consistent person. I work long hours, I get drunk a lot, I act pretty fucking crazy at times. I can also put out a more detailed case on Fox and Hound tomorrow, since I'm going to be alive then and will be more willing to spend time actually sorting out the game?

I can see the differences between your pushes on Mina in Wicked and Mastin here but your push on me in the Mentor-Mentee game was pretty no-holds barred as well as your push on Bulbazak in There is No Doctor.

You waited a really long time to push on Mastin and it came at a time when the lynch was very, very likely and just needed a little extra push to see it through. You cited Mastin's posts reminding you of your own in NY169 for you changing your mind in the neighborhood which isn't really a strong reason. Your early posts D3 also had no pushes, no scumreads until the issue of Katsuki vs AP came up.

[CarbonFiber]

I find it odd that there are basically two claimed cops in the game. One full cop (+tracker on town) and one limited cop (where scum choose one of three suspects to give back). My role PM confirms that there is more than one cop because it says that we appear as a replica to "all" cops.

If both the claimed cops are town and sane (which I wonder if they are), then the scum need to have some serious power to counter them.

[CarbonFiber]

Asthetic.

Are you saying Orc or Katsuki could have been untargetable? I actually think it is plausible that scum could have made certain townies untargetable and if others used their role on them, the role would fail.

Did you use your role on one of them?

[CarbonFiber]

CF...I think I'm tabling my read on you pending how today goes down. Yes, it's wussy on my part,

Look at that! You are chickening out of reading me. After playing several games with me now, I thought you'd claim some sort of ability to read me but this is too awesome and funny to pass up.

but given that when I was reading last night I went into full-blown paranoia mode that you had read-access to our neighborhood that you were concealing, I think I'm past being very rational in reading you. I'll recalibrate with Tammy, since she's currently the cool-headed part of the neighborhood.

Sure. I'll mentally keep track of which one of you comes out ahead on a read of me.

Right now, Tammy has 85 points with 100 being a perfect read. You have 2.

[CarbonFiber]

My role PM confirms that there is more than one cop because it says that we appear as a replica to "all" cops.

If both the claimed cops are town and sane (which I wonder if they are), then the scum need to have some serious power to counter them.

I imagine this isn't something confirmed from Cabd, right? Because although I agree that description suggests more than one cop, I wouldn't consider it confirmed.

Is insanity a possibility in this game? I haven't actually considered it up to now and just assumed it wasn't, but I usually play in normal or theme-light games.

PEdit: to be fair notscience it's not unreasonable to think that you'd be able to town it up temporarily as scum, at least imo.

No, it isn't confirmed from Cabd but it is likely. What I found odd was from a game design perspective - putting two cops in suggests sufficient counters for the scum. If not, then it is too OP.

[CarbonFiber]

F-16, this isn't fitting into my understanding of your town play. You're always really logical and fact-based, where even your 'emotional' reactions are designed as means to an end. But that's obviously not happening here, so I have to decide if it's an aberration as you say or if you have a motive I'm not seeing.

When you bounce all over with stuff like saying that your role PM implies multiple cops and being suspicious that we have multiple cop-like roles claimed, I get worried.

Let's look at our games: town-town in HP: CoS, and you misread me enough that I couldn't really work with you. scum-town in Resistance and you went OTT strategically. town-scum in 295; I don't tend to take notes on people's town play when I'm scum; I'm too busy trying to screw them over. scum-town in Wicked where I massively misread you.

So I don't think I'm any great shakes at reading you, and I'm sure as hell not going to be arrogant enough to think I can after being crushed in Wicked.

I am willing to step back, listen to whatever Tammy's thinking, and reevaluate. That's my best offer.

About the cops: I think I was unclear what I was saying. I am not suspicious of there being multiple cops - that's to be expected. Rather I found it an odd game design decision on Cabd's part if he didn't also stack the scumteam with multiple ways to get around them.

I think I addressed the emotions vs logic part. I wasn't being strategic, I just happened to be stressed at that time. I guess my frustration was that you weren't really engaging me to figure me out beyond "I won't talk to you now but I'll go talk to Tammy some more in my secret thread." I guess I at least understand now why Tammy was so pissed off at all of us in the neighborhood. Need to see it from the other side to really feel it.

[CarbonFiber]

I find it odd that there are basically two claimed cops in the game. One full cop (+tracker on town) and one limited cop (where scum choose one of three suspects to give back). My role PM confirms that there is more than one cop because it says that we appear as a replica to "all" cops.

If both the claimed cops are town and sane (which I wonder if they are), then the scum need to have some serious power to counter them.

if your role pm confirms there is more than one cop why do you find it out that there are basically two claimed cops???

I misspoke. I am not suspicious of there being multiple cops as in by question their alignment. I think it would be unbalanced from a game design POV if the scumteam doesn't have adequate counters. (I suspect AP but that's more play-based).

[CarbonFiber]

Look, PA.

I'm sorry.

I am really, truly, sorry.

But it did bug the shit out of me you weren't townreading me, and I do agree fully I should have read that game however I promise you (I don't think you'll believe me but I'm telling the truth) the last time I posted in that game was post 97. The rest of it was bert. I'm a shitty hydra partner, I get it. I get that we ended up voting a town tracker or whatever and it was bad and I should have been there the whole time trying to do shit but I wasn't and I can't change that.

All I want is to be townread because then I can actually start working shit out with you and Tammy and Fox because there's no way in hell I'm trusting nacho. GIF/pie are dead, natimuffin are dead. I want to sheep bro but that doesn't mean I'm not uberly paranoid of him.

I'm sorry I'm being really obstinate but I'm trying to come back in and do shit but my first and foremost goal in every game is to be townread and not being townread here just... yeah.

You missed me. I am obvtown.

[CarbonFiber]

NotScience feels really town.

[CarbonFiber]

I've had ENOUGH of the noise and the same thing over again. Part of me wants to quickhammer Katsuki.

[CarbonFiber]

The game does have too many investigative roles though. Something is off.

[CarbonFiber]

The game does have too many investigative roles though. Something is off.

A cop that the mafia team controls.

An even night 'cop' that cannot actually get reliable guilties.

VERY INVESTIGATION. SO OP.

Oh and there are like 3 RBs floaiting around apparently.

1+1 is tstill 2 people.

I must have missed something. Why can't he get reliable guilties? Apparently his role fails on scum, but if town, then he can track them as well.

[CarbonFiber]

Never mind. Just figured it out.

[CarbonFiber]

and again, this is a discussion that is better suited for d6 when there are two mafia goons flipped and ap and us are still alive

falcon, why the fuck are you dithering about with this bullshit right now? it's baffling.

What do you want me to do? Hammer him? I am tempted just to see what happens next. Someone unvote just in case because sitting here with my finger on the trigger.

[CarbonFiber]

there's scum hiding in the clusterfuck of dickwaggling btw

It's why people like Mac and RBD and PieGIF are dying, they aren't liable to go loco after someone like whats been going on here.

Hey CF what do you think of the nks so far

I posted my thoughts on the nk's earlier. Tl;dr:

My guess is that Mac probably protected Titan and they were the first NK. Mac's townreads were Titan, Nacho, Breakfast, and Rancid. He didn't protect Rancid because PV killed him. He didn't protect Nacho because Nacho is a commuter. That leaves Titan and Breakfast as potential nk's that were saved by Mac. I think Titan because we were working together much more easily than I was with Stalin.

Pie-GIF were nk'd possibly due to their contribution in the neighborhood and how well Pie and I were working together. We went over possible scumteams, outlined a plan of action and still 100% trusted each other even with Mastin/Rancid flipping town.

I think the most likely person in the neighborhood that is scum is Nacho. Trying to get Tammy/Pie out of the game also fits with a Nacho-type kill but at this point, I'm just conf-biasing.

[CarbonFiber]

and again, this is a discussion that is better suited for d6 when there are two mafia goons flipped and ap and us are still alive

falcon, why the fuck are you dithering about with this bullshit right now? it's baffling.

What do you want me to do? Hammer him? I am tempted just to see what happens next. Someone unvote just in case because sitting here with my finger on the trigger.

Didn't you yell at me at the start of day for this???

Yeah, but you are you and I am me. I've decided against quickhammering though.

[CarbonFiber]

and again, this is a discussion that is better suited for d6 when there are two mafia goons flipped and ap and us are still alive

falcon, why the fuck are you dithering about with this bullshit right now? it's baffling.

What do you want me to do? Hammer him? I am tempted just to see what happens next. Someone unvote just in case because sitting here with my finger on the trigger.

Didn't you yell at me at the start of day for this???

Yeah, but you are you and I am me. I've decided against quickhammering though.

What for?

[CarbonFiber]

I guess it's because I wasn't aware of that aspect of your playstyle before you pointed it out to me. For whatever reason, I pegged you as an extremely cautious player who would use every second of the deadline clock. I think your play in Swagtown was what inspired Yabbaguy's MD article on whether using all the time till deadline was optimal.

[CarbonFiber]

I changed my mind. I have intent to hammer. RG is probably not going to die and can still catch up tomorrow.

[CarbonFiber]

Anything you want to talk about before I hammer?

[CarbonFiber]

You actually

want

me to hammer?

I was sort of expecting a different response.

[CarbonFiber]

Meh, I'll hold off. Idk, I felt like the discussion wasn't going to turn anywhere other than lynching Katsuki and seeing 10 more pages of the same stuff of the past few pages wasn't helping anyone and it didn't feel like we could derail the lynch off of Kats.

[CarbonFiber]

Part of me wants to because I just want to shut this game down and study and I can't do that while it is still going on but if you are the nk tonight, I'd regret not getting all your thoughts out there so.

[CarbonFiber]

Further reminders that we have a JOAT whatever pwoers they may have had,.

I should add in now that I never bothered claiming I have a one-shot magnet which in hindsight would suggest that we already have a town redirecting power.... Didn't think this was important earlier OH WELL

Why a town redirecting power as opposed to scum redirecting?

What is a magnet anyways?

[CarbonFiber]

You know what, you are right. I decided I am not hammering. If someone hammers and we end up losing, it's on them.

[CarbonFiber]

Why didn't you say this before?

[CarbonFiber]

Why PA?

[CarbonFiber]

I don't want to lynch Katsuki. I am trying to figure out whether he is more adorable than your kitten, Tammy. And meanwhile he is concerned about the same people that I am: AP, Nacho, Penguin.

Nacho continues to be a scumbucket.

[CarbonFiber]

As for AP: fuck all the role confirmations. MASTIN said you are scum.