Mafia v. Wolves Redux: Finally Over!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Original Roll String: 1d21

1 21-Sided Dice: (11) = 11

[Mastermind of Sin]

vote: Mr. Flay

[Mastermind of Sin]

OK, I now have a reason for voting Kison: His avatar is frighteningly ugly.

This coming from a scarecrow...

[Mastermind of Sin]

lol, I think that is the question of the day.

[Mastermind of Sin]

unvote, vote: OverTheUnder

I think Raffles was just wagoning Reyo for fun and is trying to take credit for the "trap". He's not scum for it, just dumb. I know, I've tried it before. Regardless, OTU's vote was still way opportunistic.

[Mastermind of Sin]

FoS: remussaidow

for ridiculous reasoning.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I received role for this game yet it's not saying who am I replacing or something like that and I don't appear in the player list so I guess I'm not in..

Try pming the mod...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Right.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mr. Flay, I've answered both of your questions. I'm not trying to avoid anything. :/

I take it you acknowledged the answer to question 1

Answer to question 2:

Probably the most crucial. 6 (or 4) scums do not know who each other are. They know their scum buddies, but they have no knowleddge of the other group. This makes it far more likely that a scum is going to turn up and push the wagon, especially if it is half way through (i.e. false sense of security that it would be okay to vote since it is not putting Reyo on lynch -1 or 2 or whatever).

It's simple, it's a halfway house. In a big game like this, if someone has got half the vote required then the person's orbiting on event horizon. Not many would question a possibility of lynch of someone who has built that many votes. This creates an ideal situation for scum who hasn't voted on that person yet. The lynchee has clearly done something questionable so placing a vote wouldn't look suspicious, but it's not placing the person on lynch -1 or 2. A safe vote.

Looking back, I concede that these takes a fair amount of assumption. But I do honestly believe that a scum would prefer this timing rather than beginning or the end. For that reason.

The funny thing about this is, if putting an early or late vote on someone is scummy, why would town want to do it? And if the middle is the most protown place, and therefore the most likely place for scum, what's to prevent scum from WIFOMing back into the beginning and end of the wagon?

[Mastermind of Sin]

LoL, that's the best way to express a QFT that I've ever seen. Kison gets awesome points for that. (Note: These points cannot be redeemed in relation to the game at hand)

[Mastermind of Sin]

FoS: remussaidow

for having shoddy reasoning to FoS someone.

[Mastermind of Sin]

yes, because his explanation was fairly reasonable, and you brought up that you think he might be a mason, which is information that should NOT be speculated on publicly if you're protown.

[Mastermind of Sin]

BM, stop fishing please. If we could tell you what else the scum could learn, that would defeat the purpose of hoping the scum don't find it.

FoS: BM

[Mastermind of Sin]

after your play this game, i think the frying pan should be wielded by me.

@BM: if you are a town, I would like to bash you with a frying pan for stupidity.
quote]

So you admit to being a hardened kitchen killer? =O

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm sure they're pretty good at killing townies, though...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yea I'd like Al4kx or w/e his name is to explain himself

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm finding it quite hard to believe BM's claims that he's an accomplished scumhunter, after posts like these...

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm still here, sorry. Been busy with spring break. In my quick reread, it doesn't look like OTU has done anything to convince us that he's not scum. Vote stays.

[Mastermind of Sin]

lol, prodded.

[Mastermind of Sin]

He should still claim. Lynch -2 isn't much in a game this size.

[Mastermind of Sin]

the "Uncle" should be someone al4 was expecting. No clue about whether he one who has killed him was the person he wanted to meet tho. I believe that he was targetted for the NK. The chance of both NK failing on the first day is very small.

Erm, what!?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle

Read the second listed definition. It's quite obvious that that's how it was used in this death scene.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not particularly reading that deep into the night scene. I've been told it's dangerous to do so. Strangle? Uncle? Naaah.

As far as I see, there's a group called ESE. One of it's members had been NKed. There was only one nightkill. I'm using these three solid facts as a basis of my investigation.

I don't know what colour cults turn up in. Does anyone actually know? I've been looking around and there's not a single game where it's colour coded and there is a cult. This is probably the last piece of information I could get to determine if ESE is a scum or (still) could be a scum.

If he's a scum, he was very likely killed by canine group. And role block/doc prevented the mafia kill. If he's a cult, then he could have been killed by either canine or mafioso, and the other group has been blocked of NK by some way. That's how I see it.

Vote: Raffles

Whoever said it first was right. When I first read this post, my thought was "he doth protest too much".

Wolves do not strangle, the mod would not put information THAT misleading in the nightscene. Even if it wouldn't be as blatant as having his throat ripped out, our mod is clever enough to find a way to differentiate between the deaths.

[Mastermind of Sin]

BM, insane can apply to just about any role. An insane doc can kill instead of protect, an insane roleblocker might accidentally block someone else, etc. There are all sorts of ways to implement it. I think it might have more to do with the flavor of his role, making me believe him to be more likely as cult. I still don't believe he was a wolf, it just doesn't fit.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I protest too too much? I'm not sure I understand. Does that mean I should ignore and lurk? Or I should put aside what I think and just go with the flow? I don't like either of the option.

There used to be a wiki article explaining it, but i can't find it. Bah.

As previously explained, you don't seem to want people to investigate the night scene too closely. There is something to be said for taking it with a grain of salt, and many of the theories are pretty bad, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't explore the possibilities. I agree with the theory that you are probably ESE and want people to assume that ESE is mafia instead of some third scum group we have to worry about.

Everyone needs to remember that just because this is Mafia VS Wolves doesn't mean that we are limited to two scum groups...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Three scum groups is easily feasible, and I'm not even counting SKs. How many large games have you playing on MS so far?

[Mastermind of Sin]

For example, read WoT mafia, where there were 2 mafia groups, a cult, a mini cult, and at least two SKs.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, a stalling wagon is usually the sign of a scumbuddy that their partners don't want to throw under the bus, so assuming that lack of lynch = town was either bad reasoning on your part, or a bad attempt to deceive us by making shit up to cover your tracks.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't know what WoT stand for, but I'll take your word for it. I can imagine how analyzing night actions for that one would be a right mess though.

If you looked in the Theme Park for more than 2 seconds, you'd see a thread labelled "WoT Mafia" I abbreviated it to make it easier for you to find the thread... -_-

[Mastermind of Sin]

And? Hindsight is 20/20, my friend. You can't use something that happened later as justification for your earlier actions. It doesn't change the fact that your assumption was bad.

[Mastermind of Sin]

No. There is another way I could have known, and that is because surprise surprise, our rather hated retired cop is

dead

! Deader than a dodo. MoS's theory suggests that I'm a scumbuddy. But the lynch result proves

there is no scum to be buddied with!

Besides, even if it looks bad, my assumption was right. Another point for gut, nothing for logic.

My theory suggests that you are an ESE member, not a scumbuddy. You're making shit up in a bad attempt to discredit the points against you. GG, yo.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Fine. It might have been a bad decision. But what you said proves nothing in terms of my alignment. I can't be seen as scummy through what you said, since OTU didn't turn out to be a scum.

And MoS, you seem to be unable to point out the obvious for a last couple of pages. Shall I tell you why ESE is unlikely to be the 3rd scum group? Same reason al4xz is unlikely to be a cult. Two failed mafia kills in a night.

See: Committee Mafia. Night 4, five killing groups, 1 nightkill. You lose.

[Mastermind of Sin]

In addition, I don't think there were two failed kills. I think al4xz was killed by the mafia, as I've previously said, and the wolves missed their kill for some reason or another.

[Mastermind of Sin]

ESE = cult. Jeez, didn't we already cover this? Please work on your reading retention.

No, I'm not going to speculate on

why

there was a missed kill. That would be stupid, because there are far too many factors that we don't know about, including roleblockers, doctors, redirectors, kill overlaps, and other mechanics that we may not have seen before or considered.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wrong. See Mafia vs. Wolves Redux. N1. You lose.

It was not a bad reasoning, it was a good gut. And what's all this about making shit up to cover my tracks? You are leaving me confused in wake here.

Once again you are trying to use results to justify a previous action. Logic doesn't work that way. The only way you could've known that he wasn't scum

before

he was lynched was to be scum yourself, as BM pointed out. He gave off every indication of a scum who felt pressured and gave up, disappearing from the thread. There was no indication that he could be town, certainly not enough to justify this "gut" of yours.

[Mastermind of Sin]

red = antitown. cult = antitown. 'nuff said.

There isn't difinitive proof that there is a cult, but there also is no reason to assume that there isn't. The fact that you are so hellbent on dismissing the possibility altogether only

reinforces

this, further supporting the theory that there is a cult.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What I find more interesting than the target of the kill is the target's role and the amount of kills we've seen. ESE Member can really be anything. The fact that he came up red implicates scum. I'd say that Cult would be purple...that's the Cult's colour (or, well, it's what I think the Cult's colour is...). He can't be SK, because a Member implies that there are other people in this ESE-crap. So my guess would be that he's Mafia, because Werewolves aren't, well, human, and al4xz was. So he'd be the Werewolves' kill, and the Mafia's probably failed.

MoS, who says cult can't be different colour?

They can be, but they don't have to be.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Has anyone played in a game where there is a cult and the alignments colour coded?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3189
scum = red. cult=green

THANK YOU! Cult theory suck my credentials.

armlx != this game's mod. All you've done is shown that a mod once gave the cult a different color. That doesn't mean anything, especially since we don't know what color the mod is giving "regular" scum, or if he's even using different colors. For example, when I mod a game, blue usually means protown, red means antitown, and green means neutral. Cults are not neutral, so dead cults would be red in any game I modded.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Raffles, it's not so much that you weren't sure OTU wasn't scum as that you

still wanted him lynched by somebody

(but not you) despite that doubt. I think you're panicking today, which makes me think we're right. This is orthagonal to the ESE/Mafia/Cult discussion, which is highly speculative, except for the part where you've opposed vehemently the possibility until now.

No, I'm getting irate because everyone is getting me wrong. Including you. I would have hammered him. But due to my schedule (believe it or not, MS is not the first priority in my life) I could not place hammer on OTU, so told someone else to do it to ensure that D1 didn't end in no lynch.

I've opposed the idea because for now until someone tells me the colour of the cult, it is more plausible to think that ESE is a mafia. I've repeatedly asked someone to give me the colour. If the colour of cult is red, only then the theory of cult is just as likely as theory of mafia. This is why I stuck with mafia theory.

what is with you and your obssession of colors? Color coding

rarely

has any significance to the game, other than a convenient distinction between protown and antitown. Without further evidence, the color coding means nothing to us, except that we know he was scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

... and MoS

Replacements:
3. MoS (days 1 and 2 only)

Is it possible that you could have known about this game?

Why don't you got back to that thread and quote some posts of mine there. I'm sure you'll find your answer.

[Mastermind of Sin]

No, because you're trying to quote past games to prove to me that something is

true

. I'm quoting past games to prove that your assertion that something can't/won't happen in a game is

false

. Since not all mods do things the same way, past games can't be used to predict what the mod will and will not do (except sometimes past games by the same mod). However, they can be used to show what is

possible

, because saying something is possible is not asserting that it

has

to be true in that particular case, just merely stating that you can't rule it out without specific evidence pointing to the contrary.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wrong. See Mafia vs. Wolves Redux. N1. You lose.

It was not a bad reasoning, it was a good gut. And what's all this about making shit up to cover my tracks? You are leaving me confused in wake here.

Once again you are trying to use results to justify a previous action. Logic doesn't work that way. The only way you could've known that he wasn't scum

before

he was lynched was to be scum yourself, as BM pointed out. He gave off every indication of a scum who felt pressured and gave up, disappearing from the thread. There was no indication that he could be town, certainly not enough to justify this "gut" of yours.

That's rubbish. A pressured scum gives up? I can understand a pressured townie giving up. How could you know that he was

scum

that gave up? There is certainly no "overwhelming" evidence to justify that he was a scum. A scum giving up makes much less sense. Given a townie or scum, townie is much more likely to give up in face of death due to their lack of powers.

The only way I could've known - yea right. Did I ever say this? "I definitely knew for sure that OTU wasn't a scum. Try this.

I didn't know

. But I had a bad feeling about it. Okay?

Newbie players are quite likely to give up as scum and stop posting under pressure. Happens all the time. His actions before he disappeared are what made him seem more like newbie scum than newbie town. Everything pointed

in favor

of him being scum, with what little evidence there was. We could not be

sure

that he was scum, but there was no reason to suddenly get a "feeling" that he was protown.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, Reyo, yes. Scum = know more than protown player. You know, that's sortof the basis behind mafia in general? Informed minority vs. Uninformed majority? You

do

know what "informed" means, right?

[Mastermind of Sin]

It depends on what information you're talking about.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't know, I didn't say I agreed with his statement. I was just pointing out that, yes, scum DO know more than protown players, in general.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Newbie players are quite likely to give up as scum and stop posting under pressure. Happens all the time.

But you see - I'm not even going to pretend I knew this. I didn't. So this factor was not in my calculation. And even then, why? If someone gave me this as a reason for lynching a newb scum, I would never go with it.

And why didn't you mention it on D1, if this was a tell?

I was busy with RL and inactive at the time, in nearly all my games. I could barely keep up with the thread, much less point out everything and explain it for you.

His actions before he disappeared are what made him seem more like newbie scum than newbie town. Everything pointed

in favor

of him being scum, with what little evidence there was.

So why did such a little evidence gather so many votes? Make up your mind, was he very scummy? Or not very? And if the latter, why did you not try to dissuade others from the deadline before it was in place?

By "little evidence", I was referring to the fact that it was Day 1, and there is rarely much evidence to lynch someone. However, the evidence against him was better than anything else I had seen presented, and I didn't see anyone else scummier at the time.

We could not be

sure

that he was scum, but there was no reason to suddenly get a "feeling" that he was protown.

There was for me and that was stalling votes. We must have completed this cycle a few times now.

stalling votes != protown player. What could possibly convince you that stalling votes means he's protown? The uninformed majority suddenly gets told that he's not scum? Or did the informed minority (scum) suddenly decide that they didn't want to lynch a protown player?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Just another thought. A cult wouldn't want to lynch the town because it means they would have less chance to win because a) fewer people to recruit, b) more chance for the leader to hit a scum and die). However, al4 looks quite opportunistic to lynch OTU. This doesn't agree with the theory that al4 is a cult.

I'm not sure if this is right.

That's a valid strategy later in the game, but not as important early in the game. Also, it would require al4 to be experienced enough to think of something like that. I've never heard of the guy before, so I don't think he's that experienced. I wouldn't bet on him having thought about it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Because later in the game, there are less people overall to recruit from, and if you kill too many townies, the scum will just NK all the cult and win the game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Newbie players are quite likely to give up as scum and stop posting under pressure. Happens all the time.

But you see - I'm not even going to pretend I knew this. I didn't. So this factor was not in my calculation.

And even then, why?

If someone gave me this as a reason for lynching a newb scum, I would never go with it.*snip*

*snip*

Unanswered question bolded.

If I knew why this happened, I would have a Professor Mafia award for writing some sort of dissertation on why newbies do what they do. I just know that it's a common pattern to look for in newbies. Having not done something like that before myself, I wouldn't know why they do it. Perhaps they just can't think of anything good to say to defend themselves.

By "little evidence", I was referring to the fact that it was Day 1, and there is rarely much evidence to lynch someone. However, the evidence against him was better than anything else I had seen presented, and I didn't see anyone else scummier at the time.

Actually there were few other very decent alternatives, including me. Except you've seem to have lost steam in pursuing me for reasons unfounded. And I think Akbar mentioned something about kison + remus. So I call bullshit on that. This put together with your policy of lynching rather than replace those who lost interest in the game, I find inconsistency.

Lost steam? Wtf?

I don't have a policy of lynching rather than replacing those who disappear. However, the last part of the day was during a busy time in RL, and I was barely around in the thread. I knew he was lurking somewhat, but the last time I'd been truly active in the thread he was at least posting every once in a while, so I couldn't ask for his replacement.

stalling votes != protown player. What could possibly convince you that stalling votes means he's protown? The uninformed majority suddenly gets told that he's not scum? Or did the informed minority (scum) suddenly decide that they didn't want to lynch a protown player?

In reverse chronogical order:

Well wouldn't you think that if there really was a convincing case against him, he would have been lynched already, no? I looked back and

whilst there was no convincing case that he is a town, there was not very much for scum either.

I decided at the time that he didn't warrant a lynch. Hence I unvoted. We lynched more because of the deadline rather than a case against him. Don't kid yourself of that.

And if he was protown, why had he not been lynched yet? No one was speaking out

against

the lynch (at least not as far as I noticed), so why didn't the scum just off him?

OTU on verge of lynch for very long time.
Maybe he is not worth the lynch?

I unvoted because of the following:

He was teeteering on lynch -2/1 for a very long time.
----> A sign that he was not worth the lynch?
----------> If he is not worth the lynch, why do I still have my vote on him?

He was disinterested in the game even near the lynch.
----> Cannot be bothered to stay in game? A boring role maybe?

All these gives me a bad gut feeling that OTU is a townie about to be lynched.


So I investigate further...

True there wasn't much to suggest he was a town in his post. But then there wasn't much to suggest he is a scum from his post

, apart from his opportunistic vote.
----> Not particularly a strong reason as I first thought it might be.
--------> Then I shouldn't have my vote on him. Unvote

When did I

ever

say "I am convinced that OTU is town"? Look at the first quote. You aren't even bothering to twist my words anymore, you are stating the opposite to suit your argument.

Vote: MoS

. Either that or someone is having a reading retention problems. Ironic.

Now you're just twisting

my

words, hypocrit. I'm really tired of your semantic games, they aren't getting us anywhere. Whether or not you thought he was protown or just thought he wasn't scum, that doesn't matter. What does matter is that you are claiming that the circumstances surrounding his wagon convinced you that he was

not

a good lynch for the day, when by most logic it should've done the opposite. I'm not buying it.

what is with you and your obssession of colors? Color coding rarely has any significance to the game, other than a convenient distinction between protown and antitown. Without further evidence, the color coding means nothing to us, except that we know he was scum.

Because if there is some consistency for colour coding, then it would shed us light on what ESE could be. There’s consistent colour coding for scum, for townie, why shouldn’t there be one for the cult?

And how do you expect to find out if there is a color coding consistency until more than one scum is dead? Something like that has no bearing on today, because we don't have enough information to make a reasonable assumption based on coloring. There is no good reason for you to have been that concerned about color right now.

Actually, a stalling wagon is usually the sign of a scumbuddy that their partners don't want to throw under the bus, so assuming that lack of lynch = town was either bad reasoning on your part, or a bad attempt to deceive us by making shit up to cover your tracks.

Wrong. See Mafia vs. Wolves Redux. N1. You lose.

It was not a bad reasoning, it was a good gut. And what's all this about making shit up to cover my tracks? You are leaving me confused in wake here.

I'm thinking this is where the jumped conclusion (or so it appears to me) that I'm an ESE member. But I'm not getting how it works. Shed any light please?

You still have to explain to me your warped theory.

Unanswered question bolded.

What? How do your actions on day 1 have any basis in my theory that you are an ESE member? Your day 1 actions merely strength my suspicion that you are scum. Your repeated denial of any possiblity of there being a cult is what makes me think you are an ESE member. This has been said multiple times before, so you should start paying more attention, please.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The town as a whole is still a thread to the cult. The scum kills townies for them at night. Since the cult is usually the smallest group to start with, they have the least chance of getting hit by a nightkill. Therefore, near the beginning of the game, it's nice to keep some scum around to nightkill townies and power roles. Otherwise, the scum die off too early and the town realizes there is a cult and starts searching for them. One of the main advantages of a cult is the element of surprise, although it looks like you lost it this game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

WTF, DGB? How am I "hounding" XReyoX? I haven't even said that I think he's scummy! In fact, Reyo and I have been having a rather mild conversation, so I'm having trouble seeing how you think I'm going after him...I'd like you to try and explain that to me, please.

Also, why am I suddenly scummy just because I was away when the game restarted after the crash? That's pretty much what you are suggesting, DGB, since the only reason this is "Flay's argument" is that he got to it first. I've done more than my share in providing my own reasoning, so it's not like I'm just jumping on the bandwagon. I think you need to reevaluate your logic there, DGB.

[Mastermind of Sin]

*snip-snip*
If I knew why this happened, I would have a Professor Mafia award for writing some sort of dissertation on why newbies do what they do. I just know that it's a common pattern to look for in newbies. Having not done something like that before myself, I wouldn't know why they do it. Perhaps they just can't think of anything good to say to defend themselves.

So there is no reasonable explanation - then I hope you don't take it hard on yourself when I say I don't buy it.

(BTW the suggestion you given there is crap - a scum, newbie or not, it doesn't hurt for them to try if their life is on the line)

Of course it doesn't hurt for them to try if their life is on the line. I know that, you know that. That's because we actually know what we are doing. However, I have seen people literally say that they can't think of any way to defend themselves when they get attacked, so they just go for the turtle-shell approach and hope it'll go away. Obviously, it's not a good strategy. That's why only the newbies actually use it, because they haven't realized what to do, yet.

Lost steam? Wtf?

I don't have a policy of lynching rather than replacing those who disappear. However, the last part of the day was during a busy time in RL, and I was barely around in the thread. I knew he was lurking somewhat, but the last time I'd been truly active in the thread he was at least posting every once in a while, so I couldn't ask for his replacement.

That was miswording on my part - sorry about that. It is meant to read "you have a policy of replacing those lost interest rather than lynching". Still you had the opportunity to ask replace when he dissapeared after repeated requests for a claim. Why did you go for OTU rather than active targets, like me?

Were you scummy for most of Day 1? That seems to be what you're implying. It's not about going after an active/inactive target. I don't factor activity into deciding whether or not to go after someone. If they seem scummy, I'll go after them. OTU seemed scummy, and his lurking reinforced this. I saw no one as a better choice for Day 1.

*snippy-di-snip*

Now you're just twisting

my

words, hypocrit. I'm really tired of your semantic games, they aren't getting us anywhere.

I'm not sure I understand. Without evidence, sounds like you are firing blank rounds.

You didn't read far enough. In fact, if you look just a few centimeters down, you'll find that you quoted the "evidence" you're asking me for. Fancy that, I actually explained myself in the same post that I made a statement? Who would've thought?

Whether or not you thought he was protown or just thought he wasn't scum, that doesn't matter. What does matter is that you are claiming that the circumstances surrounding his wagon convinced you that he was

not

a good lynch for the day, when by most logic it should've done the opposite. I'm not buying it.

That makes the two of us then (referring to the beginning).

And how do you expect to find out if there is a color coding consistency until more than one scum is dead? Something like that has no bearing on today, because we don't have enough information to make a reasonable assumption based on coloring. There is no good reason for you to have been that concerned about color right now.

Okay... what are you suggesting? Let's see... the red colour might be a mason? Oh and let's make the scum blue. And werewolves green. In fact, why not make the protagonist group red? (Except I know this doesn't work because OTU was black). So could red be something neutral? I can go on forever making stuff up with colours if there are 0 conformity.

Are you

trying

to make it look like you have an IQ of 50, or is it natural?

What? How do your actions on day 1 have any basis in my theory that you are an ESE member? Your day 1 actions merely strength my suspicion that you are scum. Your repeated denial of any possiblity of there being a cult is what makes me think you are an ESE member. This has been said multiple times before, so you should start paying more attention, please.

So which one am I? Cult? Scum? Which do you think is ESE? You know it's kinda hard to defend myself when I don't know what I am being accused for.

Wow, you sure are thickheaded. How many repititions does it take to get it through your head that Cult = scum? Scum != mafia in particular. Scum is a generic word for any antitown role. Hence, calling you scum meant that the evidence pointed to you being antitown. Calling you Cult means that further evidence has narrowed you down to not only being scum, but being cult, specifically.

[Mastermind of Sin]

WTF, DGB? [...] [blah] [blah] [blah] [...] I think you need to reevaluate your logic there, DGB.

Defensive much?

Nope. Lack of reading skills much?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Reyo, town power roles such as vigs and cops can skew the game in the town's favor when it's just town vs cult. Like I said, lynching mafia is still generally preferrable, but it's not something that cults usually have to worry about early in the game. There is a fine line between lynching the mafia quickly enough and getting rid of them

too

early, which puts things in the town's advantage. Either way, though, I have to agree with other people that talking about optimal cult strategy is probably not a good idea right now. There's no need to coach them any more than you have already.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mr. Flay, Reyo, what do you think of DGB's arguments against me?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Nope, but if you leave things to fester, even baseless arguments such as yours can become a bandwagon. I asked Mr. Flay and Reyo what they thought because they are some of the few people that are actually posting right now. Since they hadn't commented on you yet, I asked for their opinion. I'm not sure if you're scum or not right now, but if Raffles is scum, that's definitely a point in favor of you being scum as well.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Nope, but if you leave things to fester, even baseless arguments such as yours can become a bandwagon.

There was one post against you (mine) and one vote against you (mine). If my argument is baseless, what are the chances that it swells into a full-blown bandwagon? Pretty remote, don't you think? So I have to wonder about the over-reaction. You really took me aback. Like, whoa! Did I touch a raw nerve? A scummy raw nerve?

You haven't played with me much if you think I just ignore baseless arguments against me. Nice try, though.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@MoS. How does raffles being a scum makes DGB oneas well?

Because DGB is trying to stir up suspicion against the person that is most proactively attacking Raffles. If Raffles is scum, this makes DGB look pretty bad tomorrow.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS is not scummy, and DGB's case is rubbish, frankly.

That's a pretty "definitive" statement, isn't it? It's getter curiouser and curiouser. MoS is not even a little bit scummy for his alarmed reaction to my "rubbish" case?

I'm hardly alarmed. Taken aback is more like it. I'm completely taken aback that someone could possibly believe the arguments you posted against me, being that they are indeed rubbish. It seems to be a trend in all my games right now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

LoL, how could I be trying to trip him up? We were discussing theoretical cult strategy, he posted a theory, i gave him my opinion on it, etc. What exactly made you think I was trying to trip him up?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Not spouting bullshit is not being a mindless townie, Raffles...

[Mastermind of Sin]

lol.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thanks for letting us know.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Akbar, are you Shanba?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I would be at least a little unsure about my investigative prowess if I was in the same spot.

If you are not Shanba, then I don't care what you would've done in the same spot. If you

are

Shanba, then why are you playing two roles in a single game?

[Mastermind of Sin]

@MoS
Ok, 1st off, I only have 1 account.

2nd off, your obviously not paying attention to what I'm saying because I just told you how we lost a game, with both of us town and Shanba voting against me. That would be a pretty strange way to cheat don't ya think?

Are YOU even paying attention? Had you read my last post, I made it rather clear what I meant by my earlier question. It had nothing to do with accusing you of cheating.

[Mastermind of Sin]

OMG! READ MY FUCKING POSTS. YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED SELECTIVE READING RETENTION.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Excuse me, I'm going to go beat my head against a wall.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Kison i suggest you dont use other games that are still being played. i think i know which one you are talking about, but it really means very little when neither of our affiliations are known...

a) Raffles didn't say which game, so he's more than allowed to make a comment like this
b) Raffles comment had nothing to do with alignment. It's bad logic regardless of your alignment. He was just pointing out that you have a history of bad logic, since you've done it to him before.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Err, yea. Sorry.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Indeed.

[Mastermind of Sin]

as for the comment itself, it is pretty obvious what game he is talking about-if i know, anyone in that game (a few people here) will also know.
BM

BM, the point is, he didn't specify which game it was, so there's nothing wrong with that. Even if you can figure out which game it is, because you're in it (obviously), he still didn't mention it, so it's fine. Also, like I already explained, his comment is true

regardless

of your alignment, so it doesn't matter that the game isn't over yet. If you are scum in that game, it'd be further evidence against you in this game. If you are town in that game, it's be further reason to take everything you say with a grain of salt...more like a

shaker

of salt, or perhaps a box.

[Mastermind of Sin]

what does Raffles have to do with this?
you seem pretty over-protective of him, especially considering I DIDNT EVEN MENTION HIM.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think he's making it his mission in life.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Right now, I'm worried about where my vote is because Shanba placed his on DGB as well. It doesn't mean both of them can't be scum. It's just less likely. I also didn't like being accused of Role-Fishing XReyoX and would like an explaination.

This is just plain outright not true. Distancing/Bussing ftw.

If you are not Shanba, then I don't care what you would've done in the same spot. If you are Shanba, then why are you playing two roles in a single game?

MoS, he just finished a game with Shanba. I believe he's metagaming.

FoS:MoS

I didn't like how in his posts about Shanba and Akbar, he seemed to defend Shanba in a more roundabout way than I really thought was necessay.

Is it a crime to be creative in your responses to people?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yea, Kison's got you on this one. You can't put this on him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You

tried

to do it...and failed miserably

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, I think I'm right on topic. Your constant attempts at craplogic and trying to bulldoze error and responsbility off of yourself and onto other people is starting to get really counterproductive. You're not helping the town at all, so why should we keep you around?

FoS: Battle Mage

[Mastermind of Sin]

you criticise me for error, yet it was your errors that started the whole conversation.
you criticise me for crap logic, yet you are the one who professes lynching a player based on their ability, not their affiliation.
The irony is killing me!

Actually, I think I'm right on topic. Your constant attempts at craplogic and trying to bulldoze error and responsbility off of yourself and onto other people is starting to get really counterproductive. You're not helping the town at all, so why should we keep you around?

FoS: Battle Mage

I took responsbility for my error and apologized. You continually try to shift responsibility off yourself to make it look like someone else is at fault.

To be honest, regardless of alignment, you are being detrimental to the town. We're getting nothing done because we have to deal with your idiotic comments. Even

if

you are protown, we have a better chance of winning the game if you're dead. The scum can take advantage of you and use you as a distraction to hide from the town and keep us from lynching correctly. We're better of lynching you now instead of leaving you alive to lose the game for us later. And that's only

if

you are protown, which I'm starting to doubt. I find it hard to believe that a person can be this illogical without having some sort of agenda.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not finding BM annoying. The guy is fine.

But more to the point, despite the fact that Flay's argument is convincing, Raffles' response to me leads to be believe that in this particular instance, a particularly clever argument may lead to the wrong decision being taken. Raffles wasn't overly defensive, and he struck me as earnest. I dunno. Maybe he's a good actor.

Because scum

have

to be overly defensive, right?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I hope you appreciate the WIFOM-ness of that statement.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I still heavily suspect Raffles, but I find Battle Mage to be deliberately disrupting the natural flow of the game, thus distracting us from finding scum. People who do that, if they aren't scum, might as well be.

Exactly.

[Mastermind of Sin]

It seems DGB has taken a liking to defending scum today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I do have to agree about your comments on Akbar/Shanba. I can't put my finger on it. Perhaps it's the cross-references? Repeated cross-references, not a single instance. MoS even thought they were the same person. It's very weird. I am not sure if it means they are a scum pair; but they're something going on. They keep refering to each other, in the absence of provocation.

Why is it that everyone seems intent on purposely misrepresenting my posts even after they've been fully explained, multiple times?

I think this wall is starting to become very brain-hued.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote, Vote: PBug

possibly the worst escuse for joining a wagon EVER.
also, why do you post in this game, yet in others you have had to be replaced due to inactivity?
BM

Actually, there are much worse excuses for votes. See your latest vote, for example.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Would you like to join the MoS-Raffles painting crew?

[Mastermind of Sin]

This coming from the person who provided such shoddy reasoning for a vote on me...the hypocrisy is killing me...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Erm, how is that an excellent point, PBug? You're making the same mistake that Raffles made. You're assuming that the result of OTU being town justifies the conclusions he made before knowing OTU's real alignment. He did not KNOW OTU was town, and there was no logical reason for a wagon to stall on a protown player without a counterwagon springing up.

[Mastermind of Sin]

^^Voice of Reason

[Mastermind of Sin]

Interesting...

[Mastermind of Sin]

LoL, because no one posted after it for 24 hours.

[Mastermind of Sin]

DGB's strategy stinks. If DGB was really interested in finding scum, she would suggest that people look to MORE than just BM, PBuG, and Raffles, so that we can get information on everyone. Her vote on Kison is just an opportunistic jump to the first person to oppose her ridiculous plan. There is no reason to spread votes around unless there is equally good logic for all the candidates being wagoned, and the logic against Raffles is far better than the weak suspicions on the other two. As it is, if I were to be convinced that Raffles was not the play today, I would probably switch my vote to DGB as a competing wagon. The chances that I will find time to go through and look at other players and analyze them by deadline are slim, considering this is finals week for me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

DGB's strategy stinks.

If DGB was really interested in finding scum, she would suggest that people look to MORE than just BM, PBuG, and Raffles, so that we can get information on everyone.

Her vote on Kison is just an opportunistic jump to the first person to oppose her ridiculous plan. There is no reason to spread votes around unless there is equally good logic for all the candidates being wagoned, and the logic against Raffles is far better than the weak suspicions on the other two. As it is, if I were to be convinced that Raffles was not the play today, I would probably switch my vote to DGB as a competing wagon. The chances that I will find time to go through and look at other players and analyze them by deadline are slim, considering this is finals week for me.

Bolded for emphasis. Nice try at making me look bad, DGB, but I already said it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Exactly. Your vote on Kison isn't because of any suspicion that he's scum. You're just trying to stir up the waters and cause confusion.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Let me refer you back to this post once again.

DGB's strategy stinks. If DGB was really interested in finding scum, she would suggest that people look to MORE than just BM, PBuG, and Raffles, so that we can get information on everyone. Her vote on Kison is just an opportunistic jump to the first person to oppose her ridiculous plan. There is no reason to spread votes around unless there is equally good logic for all the candidates being wagoned, and the logic against Raffles is far better than the weak suspicions on the other two. As it is, if I were to be convinced that Raffles was not the play today, I would probably switch my vote to DGB as a competing wagon.

The chances that I will find time to go through and look at other players and analyze them by deadline are slim, considering this is finals week for me.

In addition, DGB is the one who decided that there needed to be competing wagons for Raffles, not me. Not to mention that I

have

made note of the scumminess of other players besides Raffles in thread, so I'm hardly guilty of anything, Raffles.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Nice try at making me look bad, DGB, but I already said it.

in general you dont need any help to do this...

Only to you and your army of clowns.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Except that your switching to me was based on my pointing out the same thing MoS just did, which you happen to claim you're also in agreement with. As a result, your motive contradicts its action.

Your vote on Kison isn't because of any suspicion that he's scum.

Incorrect. MoS's poorly thought out support of Kison's fallacy is noted.

================

My vote on Kison is based on this post:

Is this some kind of slick attempt of yours, DGB, to break the Raffles wagon? I don't see much of a reason to go for the other two of your candidates. In fact, you are second on my list, just based on earlier developments, but even you are a weak case.

I have already explained that I am not hugely keen on the Raffles wagon. In light of his continued good behavior today, I do believe that he might be a townie worth keeping. Since I hold this opinion, it is not surprising that I find value in competing wagons. Whether Raffles turns up scum or town later, it will make this day a more informative one.

Kison's post raised the possibility that he might be a scum frustrated with my efforts. He would only be frustrated if one of PBuG and BM were scum. I know this is ironic, but Kison's post could be interpreted as a slick attempt to break a PBuG or BM wagon before it really got started, and re-ignite the Raffles wagon at the same time. Add to that a declaration that I am now "second" on his "list,"the paucity of logic, and prominent lack of insight leads me to believe that he might not be a townie.

You seem to be far more concerned with creating

any

competing bandwagon than actually lynching scum today, DGB. That's the difference. You are concerned about Raffles in particular being the leading bandwagon, which insinuates that there is a connection between you two. Instead of going about looking for scum and posting analysis and trying to find a better lynch for today, you concerned yourself with telling us that we need to just start beefing up the other bandwagons, without much reason for choosing them in particular except for the fact that they're the next 2 vote-getters. You seem far more intent on saving Raffles from lynch than actually finding scum today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Not necessarily unhelpful, but her professed reasons for doing what she did do not match up with the actions taken, to say the least.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Try just picking a random person and reading through their posts in isolation, mneme. It takes less time, and it's less daunting of a task than reading the whole thread and analyzing it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You are contradicting yourself. At least means "minimum of". This means you

know

there are three scum groups. I can say there are at least two antagonist groups, with possibility of three.


At this moment, I am pretty convinced that mneme is an antagonist, if SK, mafia, wolf, ESE, whatever.

Vote: mneme

Am I the only one noticing the irony of Raffles voting someone because he thinks they're a member of a third scum group?

[Mastermind of Sin]

So you think it's highly unlikely that there is a third scum group, but it's highly likely that Mneme is a member of this unlikely third scum group? Right.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So you think it's highly unlikely that there is a third scum group, but it's highly likely that Mneme is a member of this unlikely third scum group? Right.

Would you like to stop twisting my words into a knot size of the universe? Thanks.

I said he is likely that he is an

antagonist

. I couldn't careless what scum group he is. He could be a 2321st scum group for all I could care.

But if he's scum, how else could he "know" there are three scum groups unless he is NOT mafia or a wolf? Hence, your accusation that he

knows

there are at least 3 groups because he is scum directly implies that you think he is a member of a third scum group, which you have quite adamantly insisted was not a very likely possibility at all.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@mneme - Where am I WIFOMing? I'm pretty sure what I wrote down was pretty straight forward in my head.

@MoS: So? I said it was not a likely possibility. Big deal. Just because it's not likely that I will end up in Australia through quantum fluctuation, it doesn't mean it's not gonna happen. You are adamant that I'm a scum, so at the end of this day, you can stuff those words up your ass.

I hope everyone is noting what I'm being accused of. So far to my knowledge, I've been accused of high probability of: scum, mason and ESE. Mr. Flay has publicly announced he would commit game suicide if I don't turn out antagonist. Any more pledges? Keep them coming, I can start making some money for charity here...

added point to MoS: Plus, aren't you missing a bigger picture here? I would quite happily die today, make no mistake on that. But mneme may have made a slip there you might want to investigate. What do you think about that?

Hardly, Raffles. Your logic regarding mneme contradicts itself, that's my point. You can't say that we don't have a third scum group then turn around and vote mneme for being a member of the third scum group. Using your analogy, that's like saying you're not likely to end up in Australia through quantum fluctuation, but then turning around and buying tickets to the Sydney Opera House anyways. Until you can explain the discrepancies in your attack on mneme or withdraw your reasoning, I see no reason to believe he made a "slip", especially since the conclusion he came to about us having at least three scum groups is not only a reasonable one, but one that I have also considered to be the most likely scenario, and we're not alone in this.

[Mastermind of Sin]

No, just showing that you're easily changing your colors when it suits your purpose, especially when you smell a chance to derail your wagon onto someone else.

[Mastermind of Sin]

And yet here you are trying to derail your wagon when you see the opportunity to jump on mneme...fancy that...

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think Raffles is town. I vote to remove deadline for now. I really like how the vote is fragmented too. It means we've finally woken up. And yes I realize if Raffles comes up scum, it will make me look bad. But, the whole case on Raffles appears to stem from his estimation of scum in game and the unlikelihood of a Cult. Well, I'm town, and I don't think there's a Cult either. So, I'm not convinced.

What do you think Al4x was? Do you think there are more than two scum groups? If not, do you think ESE are wolves or mafia, and what in his death scene makes you think that fit flavor-wise? Why do you think there isn't a cult?

Erm, how is that an excellent point, PBug? You're making the same mistake that Raffles made. You're assuming that the result of OTU being town justifies the conclusions he made before knowing OTU's real alignment. He did not KNOW OTU was town, and there was no logical reason for a wagon to stall on a protown player without a counterwagon springing up.

In this post, you clearly stated Raffles did not know OTU's alignment. If your believe Raffles to be ignorant of alignments, how can you be so easily convinced he's scum based on his theory of ESE? More importantly, how do YOU know he didn't know what OTU's alignment was?

Since there are most likely 3 or more scum groups, Raffles would not know if OTU was mafia, wolf, or otherwise. Whether he's town or scum, he would not have

known

OTU was protown. If he had, he would've said something more than unvoting and saying he'd hammer if he was around. That's hardly the conviction of someone who

knows

someone is protown, don't you think?

A deadline lynch featuring a single contender means we'll almost certainly be unable to derive any conclusions from today, if Raffles turns up town.

Why would you say it that way? Why no mention of conclusions we may gather if Raffles is scum? Do you know Raffles is town? Also, why wouldn't we be able to draw any conclusions if he's town? Are we going to ignore the fact that 4 out of the 6 people voting Raffles were on OTU's wagon as well? Of course you could just ignore these questions like the way you ignored xReyox asking you why you voted OTU.

Good questions, Akbar. I'll be interested in DGB's answer.

Justified? Maybe. I'm not feeling all too optimistic about the outcome from this, but guess what? It's the closest we've got, and there's a deadline.

Yet, another disclaimer moving towards a possible townie lynch. Which is typically followed up the next day by blaming the accused for not defending himself well enough.

Actually, I think that Raffles has made an admirable effort towards defending himself. Anyone that tries to make that sort of accusation tomorrow if we lynch Raffles and he comes up town will receive a vote from me, because that's hardly the case. I think we just caught Raffles, and it's hard to argue your way out of being scum. He's still done a pretty damn good job of making sure we had all the angles covered, though. Unfortunately for him, we do.

There is no reason to spread votes around unless there is equally good logic for all the candidates being wagoned, and the logic against Raffles is far better than the weak suspicions on the other two. As it is, if I were to be convinced that Raffles was not the play today, I would probably switch my vote to DGB as a competing wagon. The chances that I will find time to go through and look at other players and analyze them by deadline are slim, considering this is finals week for me.

Am I the only 1 here that missed the "logic that is far better than other weak suspicions?" Someone please catch me up. And if Finals is preventing anyone from analyzing players, they probably shouldn't be voting until after finals.

Go back and read nearer the beginning of the day, I believe Mr. Flay first spotted the arguments against Raffles. They're not that hard to find, they've been repeated several times as we've gone over them.

Also, since I'm convinced Raffles is scum, there's no problem with me voting him during finals. I just won't have much time to analyze other players in addition yet.

The only connection is that I believe there is a greater chance Raffles may be town, than scum. Incidentally, I think a Raffles lynch would be most informative, especially if he is town, because I am challenging it, and people are reacting differently to the challenge to Raffles' wagon.

To me this looks like scum latching on to a townie. If Raffles gets lynched and comes up town, DGB can use this as a shield later.

It looks to me like DGB is just setting up every angle. If Raffles comes up scum, she would refer back to this post where she says his lynch would be informative and try to look good off of it, even though she's trying to derail his wagon. If he comes up town, she'd use this post for the same reason. The only thing I'm having trouble deciding right now is whether DGB is a scumbuddy or Raffles or whether DGB is scum independant of Raffles...

the conclusion he came to about us having at least three scum groups is not only a reasonable one, but one that I have also considered to be the most likely scenario, and we're not alone in this.

What do you believe is the cause for the missing nightkills?

Have you ever heard of the role "Doctor", or perhaps "Roleblocker"? That's a good place to start, not to mention that I think Al4x was probably nightkilled, so that takes care of one kill. Plus, there could be mechanics we know nothing about, or other roles that stopped the kills from happening. This IS a theme game, after all.

Mod: Retract Deadline, please

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not...I'm covering all the bases, of whether you're scum or not...

[Mastermind of Sin]

The only thing I'm having trouble deciding right now is whether DGB is a scumbuddy or Raffles or whether DGB is scum independant of Raffles...

Which of course means that DGB could be scum without you being scum...

Thank you for quoting something that directly disproves the claim you just made.

[Mastermind of Sin]

independant of your alignment means could be any alignment not her own, which includes different scum groups and protown

[Mastermind of Sin]

Not technically, but I study maths. So I feel the need to rigorously enforce the definition of "independent" and "at least", which are words often comes up in statistics.

I grew up with a mathematics professor...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, is Pbug the only person who is going to respond to my analysis of him? Am I to understand that there are so many scumbuddies of Pbug?

Why should we speak for Pbug? I'd rather let him speak for himself.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why do I care...?

To be honest, if he's town, he should be able to answer for himself. If he's scum, we want to make him answer for himself, so he might mess up or get caught in an inconsistency. Letting him answer for himself is a good way to determine his alignment.

Why would you want someone else to answer for him?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh. Miscommunication then.

[Mastermind of Sin]

lol Raffles, are you seriously suggesting that because some people didnt ask for a deadline retraction, they are scum. LMAO.
Thats some serious BM Logic u got there...

There's no good reason to not want a deadline retraction when the game is moving along with such heated discussion. We're gaining a lot of information right now, even though a lot of people need to be prodded, probably. Those of us that are here are being active and we're getting somewhere. I feel that I'm learning a lot about people's possible alignments the longer this day goes on.

[Mastermind of Sin]

im not trying to convince anyone of anything.
I dont really think Raffles is scum, and as such, i can see that scum could well be pushing his wagon. to this end, there is little reason why scum would decline a deadline retraction, when they know a Raffles lynch is likely anyway.
my vote is on PBug because i think he could be scum. genius eh?

So you think PBug is scum and Raffles is not, but you don't want to convince people to vote someone other than Raffles, since you claim he's the only true contender for today's lynch? Am I getting this right?

[Mastermind of Sin]

He's got no basis to accuse me of such thing. It's totally an off-hand comment. It doesn't help anyone in anyway. Recipent took it as an insult, so even if it wasn't intended to be, it still is. Frankly any dipshit with dozen brain cells can figure it out, and I'm not having my intelligence insulted by some asshole who I don't even know that "I'm going to figure one out later". I have all the reason not to take that kind of shit from him.

Actually, his comment was a legitimate in-game response, even if I don't agree with it. It's pretty clear that he's insinuating that you might've been talking out of your ass and didn't actually have a method so you were stalling in order to not have to explain it after you claimed it exists. I don't agree with this, but I can see where they're coming from, and it's no more of an insult than saying someone is scum for using WIFOM or that they're scum for repeatedly pushing to have a cop lynched, etc.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Don't get your panties in a ruffle. I never said you wanted a raffles lynch, just that you think he's the one that's going to be lynched. Other than that, am I understanding you correctly?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Over time, I've become increasingly uncomfortable with the Raffles vote, and his responses have seemed incredibly genuine, so I am afraid I must

unvote

and accept the consquences. You have my apologies, Raffles.

On the other hand, I have been increasingly MORE comfortable with the DGB vote, and her more recent actions have been scummy independant of Raffles' alignment, so I have no problem with a

vote: DGB

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't believe that DGB's response was appropriate for any protown player. If someone is lurking and completely not posting, the first response should be to try and prod them and see if they even remember the game exists, rather than accusing them of tactical lurking.

Mod: Prod Mr. Flay

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'd ask "which point" but I bet you can find 100 reasons to find me scummy, even without looking too hard. Don't worry, you'll find out my alignment tomorrow morning, after I am nighkilled, haha. Do you think the scum will suffer me to live one more day after pulling all the stunts I have pulled today?

yes.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't believe that DGB's response was appropriate for any protown player.

ORLY???

C'mon, MoS, you are showing your hand a little too much, maybe. You know me. You know I am never "appropriate."

SV sure didn't need to be prodded, she recently showed up and then resumed ignoring this game. Even you wouldn't bring up a "prod" of SV. Your so-called "point" is confined to the attention I am suddenly paying to Flay.

Am I getting this right?

I tried to RIGHTLY draw attention to SV's and Flay's lurking. Your reaction is to divert this attention back to me, because I voted Flay instead of merely requesting a prod. Well sorry MoS, but it looks like tactical lurking to me, and no amount of prodding will erase the appearance that tactical lurking was ocurring up to the moment the player receives his prod.

I wonder who you are protecting. Spectrumvoid, or Flay? I can't decide.

See, you're telling me that accusing some players of tactical lurking is not pro-town. Uh? Since when? So your comment is cock'n'bull. You have requested the mod to prod Flay. Are you worried your scumbuddy might gather some flak for lurking? Do you want him to defend himself NOW before it's too late, a tactic you claimed to employ for yourself in this very game? Or are your seeking reinforcement against me?

no.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Cute "yes/no" answers. I'd prefer if you elaborated on your responses. Especially when answering "no" to a post with more than one question, you vaseline-covered slippery scumbuddy of Flay's.

Let me break it up for you.

I don't believe that DGB's response was appropriate for any protown player.

ORLY???

C'mon, MoS, you are showing your hand a little too much, maybe. You know me. You know I am never "appropriate."

SV sure didn't need to be prodded, she recently showed up and then resumed ignoring this game. Even you wouldn't bring up a "prod" of SV. Your so-called "point" is confined to the attention I am suddenly paying to Flay.

Am I getting this right?

no.

I tried to RIGHTLY draw attention to SV's and Flay's lurking. Your reaction is to divert this attention back to me, because I voted Flay instead of merely requesting a prod. Well sorry MoS, but it looks like tactical lurking to me, and no amount of prodding will erase the appearance that tactical lurking was ocurring up to the moment the player receives his prod.

I wonder who you are protecting. Spectrumvoid, or Flay? I can't decide.

no.

[/quote]See, you're telling me that accusing some players of tactical lurking is not pro-town. Uh? Since when? So your comment is cock'n'bull. You have requested the mod to prod Flay. Are you worried your scumbuddy might gather some flak for lurking?[/quote]

no.

Do you want him to defend himself NOW before it's too late, a tactic you claimed to employ for yourself in this very game?

no. Where did I claim such a thing?

Or are your seeking reinforcement against me?

no.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Do you want him to defend himself NOW before it's too late, a tactic you claimed to employ for yourself in this very game?

no. Where did I claim such a thing?

Soon after I replaced, and started to suspect you. You waaaaay over-reacted, remember?

no.

You explained your surprising explosion by saying something to the effect that you wanted to nip it inthe bud before it snowballed.

Yea, I just didn't catch the reference from your wording. I was interpreting it differently.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yea. Which people picked up their prods, and which haven't had replacements found yet?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why Raffles?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Okay, let's try this:

Unvote; vote: Raffles

As individual players, regardless of the game's flow, Raffles has been exceptionally scummy through this entire game. He brilliantly distracted with the argument abou XReyoX's noobishness on Day 1, which became oh so much longer than it ever needed to be. When the discussion is not going his way, he attempts the change the subject. When things

still

don't go his way, he quotes his post in which he attempts to change the subject several times, bolding and enlarging various parts of it, using sledgehammer and wrecking ball analogies along the way. Then a metagame post, making assumptions about the number of scum, not at all considering the balance of the game in terms of pro-town power roles. He actively lurks when he isn't acting out, his vote on OTU floating along unnoticed without any ascertainable reasoning. Oh so often he appears to post because he

can

. Once he actually posts reasoning, there is the giant hypocrisy of 'I can't really extract any useful contribution to the town from him, despite the number of posts he may have made more than most.' His vote does come off next post, I'll give him that. He gets stuck on ESE for a little while. Then a very long period of no real contribution. He does make the stunning point against MoS that despite the long stall on OTU's wagon, OTu was town. Now some bickering with MoS. His more recent actions have content, but only because he's arguing against a particular player.

I don't find anything scummy about his interaction with XReyoX. If there's any connection between them, I think it's because they know each other IRL. His sledgehammer posts, while annoying, seemed genuine frustration and I somewhat agreed with them. I agree his voting on OTU wasn't the most protown. I'm not really seeing where you have a case for him being scum, though. Right now it looks like you're saying he's scum because he tried to change the subject and got frustrated when it didn't happen, made metagame posts, made a vote without reasoning, and did a bit of active lurking. That hardly seems like a strong enough case to want to vote him over it, PBuG.

[Mastermind of Sin]

DGB, what's your explanation for Flay's continued silence?

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, you didn't ask me, but my vote remains on Raffles because I still find his response to discussion of ESE to be highly suspect. Many of his posts at the beginning of today seem desperate to suggest that ESE isn't a cult (or, later, that it doesn't matter what ESE is) and a couple of them try in both direct and indirect ways to produce speculation on why there was only one kill last night, something that generally only serves to out power roles. All this subsequent noise with DGB and Flay has been interesting, but neither of them seems to me to have proven scummy enough to move me away from Raffles. DGB is perhaps worth pursuing if Raffles is scum and Flay is perhaps worth pursuing if Raffles isn't scum. But either way, I think Raffles is a better bet than either of them.

I was hoping to get an answer like this from PBuG, because these ARE reasons to vote for Raffles. However, the only reasons he was able to give me were pretty much crap.

You make a convincing argument, Fuldu, except that I think DGB is likely to be scum regardless of Raffles' alignment. Her actions can be both indicative of scumbuddy-ness, opposing scum, or scum playing off a townie, depending on the way you look at it. The last two are exactly the same from her end, because she wouldn't know if he was scum or not. It's true that lynching Raffles is likely to give us the most information at this point, but I'm hesitant to give up on lynching scum just to get more information. There is some information to be gained froma DGB lynch, but not nearly as much as a Raffles lynch. However, I believe her more likely to be scum than Raffles, so my vote is staying here for the time being. Were we to near deadline or the lynch of another player that I am less suspicious of, I would be willing to vote Raffles as a second-choice, but I would much prefer DGB right now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, of all the players here, I would venture to say that you best know my playstyle. Therefore, your comment above is, too me, uber-scummy. I don't think the newbies players are going to see through it, unfortunately. You know what you're doing. You know that I am ALWAYS an easy lynch for the scum to orchestrate, and a desirable one, for two reasons; the first being that I am unpredictable and will shake every and any tree for rotten apples, and impossible to manipulate. Why don't you guys wait, and nightkill me? I am not going to be here tomorrow morning. I've attacked too many people, and some of these people ARE scum. And if none are... I will attack way more people tomorrow when the list is shorter. I will not be suffered to live.

Your question asking for me to speculate on Flay's disappearance is you making an excuse for Flay. That two players covering Flay. You (and you've been trying to save Flay's buttski a few times previously) and mememe. There is no excuse - he is absent on purpose.

Right now, my favorite scum candidates are Flay, MoS, and memne. You guys are making it too easy, like shooting fish in a barrel.

DGB, the fact that you are so desperate to pull out the "this is how I always play" card is just one more mark against you. You're a good enough player that you should know that doesn't mean anything, so I can only assume that you're trying to pull this ploy in an attempt to get everyone else who doesn't know better to fall for it.

And don't give me this bullshit about you being an easy lynch. If you were an easy lynch, you'd be dead by now. This day has been going on for quite a long time, and you haven't been lynched yet. This game right here is proof that you are not an easy lynch.

As for you being nightkilled, I'd be surprised if any scum killed you if we let you live, for a number of reasons:

a) If you're scum, and you probably are, your team isn't going to kill you.
b) Your flailing around is so helpful to scum it's not even funny. You claim you're going to die because you've attacked scum. You've attacked so many people in the game, it's not even funny. If you go around saying everyone is scum at one point or another, no one's going to believe you when you actually hit on scum. Therefore, scum has no reason to want to kill you, regardless of your alignment. All you do is help them.

MoS's attempt to tie his wagon to Fuldu is noted.

Case in point, DGB. You're flailing around, putting out every single ludicrous theory you can think of, even if they don't make any sense. I in no way attempted to "tie" the Raffles wagon to Fuldu. Fuldu's listed reasons were nearly the same as the ones I'd given so many pages ago. They merely showed that he had read and understood why Raffles could be scum, something that PBuG didn't seem to know. He did remind me of the fact that a Raffles lynch gives us more information than anything else, and I agreed with that. I'd be interested to see you justify your statement that I tried to "tie" the wagon to Fuldu.

It's also interesting that the wagon is now

my

wagon, since just a while ago DGB was calling it

Flay's

wagon, talking about how he created this wagon and then disappeared, making him scum. Make up your mind, DGB. Whose wagon is it?

[Mastermind of Sin]

You're now suggesting that Flay might be a cop??? With you making excuses for him, he doesn't need to show up!

What's to say he isn't? You don't know his role, and neither do we.

[Mastermind of Sin]

We have a deadline? When? This game is hardly inactive enough for a deadline, even with so many players not posting. The rest of us are keeping it going.

Deadline extension, please

[Mastermind of Sin]

Akbar do you have anything to back up your comments, or do you find it satisfactory to defend your scumbuddies in broad daylight?

In regards to you personally or your whole team? Because several people already talked about how your acting different. It just never stuck because Mos was busy leading the charge on Raffles.
Course then MoS changed his position on Raffles and decided to bash PBuG for voting the same person. Now Raffles is "the most informative lynch" which I guess is a quiet way of keeping the vote hop going without appearing too scummy.
DGB is right about Memne's posts. I think there intentionally being written to confuse the readers. I still can't figure out how Memne got the pass on role fishing and then blamed it on the target for "volunteering" information.
Shanba's feigned attack on Memne, followed by the hand shake later, reeks of distancing.
MoS's response to my posts kinda clued me into his partner though. When I mentioned how Shanba was scummy, he jumped down my throat saying he didn't give a f*** what I thought. But, I post suspicions about DGB and it changes to, oh good point, I can see that.
About Flay, I think he's doing it on purpose for Out of Game reasons. He threatened to leave the game if activity didn't pick up. Of course I just gave him an out to use, but if we're hemming up folks lurking, as xReyox pointed out, there's plenty to choose from.

Interesting. You've got it all worked out, don't you? I look forward to making you eat your words.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Good thinking, Fuldu

[Mastermind of Sin]

did they? i dont recall that. please explain how my behaviour here is different, and im sure i can reference you to multiple games in which i have acted exactly the same.

You want me to convince you that your scum? I don't think that will be useful considering you won't be voting yourself.

Interesting. You've got it all worked out, don't you? I look forward to making you eat your words.

Yes, tonight in fact, right? That's what you'd like to say. At least when my corpse is examined tomorrow, it will show how Shanba showed up and went straight after a townie when no suspicion was on me. Flay's support of Shanba's attack was noted, though I'm not convinced he's scum yet.

@SV Hate to see ya leave, your one of the few people I trusted around here.

I really, really hate the "when I turn up townie, you'll see!" argument...

[Mastermind of Sin]

I really, really hate the "when I turn up townie, you'll see!" argument...

I really, really hate the "I'm gonna lynch a bunch of townies and claim its for information purposes." argument.....

Rofl, where did I say that?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I really, really hate the "when I turn up townie, you'll see!" argument...

I really, really hate the "I'm gonna lynch a bunch of townies and claim its for information purposes." argument.....

Rofl, where did I say that?

OverTheUnder (11): Battle Mage, DrippingGoofball, Fuldu,

Mastermind of Sin

, Mr Flay, remussaidow, PBuG, Scarecrow, al4x, theopor_COD, IH

He did remind me of the fact that a Raffles lynch gives us more information than anything else, and I agreed with that.

Where did I say that lynching OTU was to give us information? I believed him to be scum. In addition, I said that the Raffles lynch would give us the most information of the three main wagons, but do you see me voting Raffles? No. I'm voting DGB, who I believe to be scum, because lynching scum is more important than gaining more information. I think Raffles is protown, so I'm not going to "lynch him for information". You need to work on your misrepresentation, Akbar. That was way off.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Interesting

[Mastermind of Sin]

DGB, now that we know Flay was town, are you done derailing the Raffles wagon?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Do you have proof of your sanity?

*sigh* You'd better...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Who is that addressed to, Kison? N9V?

[Mastermind of Sin]

N9V, until the person you got innocent on dies to confirm they are protown, we don't know if you are sane or insane. Right now, I think the best option here would be to reveal who you got the innocent on, for several reasons:

1) If you get killed any time soon, we would have no way to check your sanity to know whether or not to lynch IH

2) Even if you reveal an innocent investigation, it will help us. The wolves won't kill the innocent person, because they don't want to confirm IH's guilt (or vice versa, depending on your sanity). Other scum *might* target the innocent person, but that just means that we're trading one innocent for a guaranteed guilty. Since we don't know your sanity, we might even get lucky by having scum kill the guilty person, so we don't even have to waste a lynch.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm willing to trade one protown person to make sure that we get a scum. Your plan has too many wholes.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Changed my mind. I'm not reading through this whole thing yet. I'd be pissed as hell if I did and then was NKed. Tomorrow (game tomorrow, not RL) I will read.

I'll add an

FOS MoS

, but only if IH turns up scum. I read his and IH's posts in isolation, and they sorta make me think they're a team.

Huh?

[Mastermind of Sin]

And even if i told who the innocent is, it doesn't mean that they arn't wolf.

All the better if they are a wolf. The point of revealing your innocent result is NOT to confirm someone innocent, but to guarantee that we lynch a scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I already did explain it in detail.

N9V, until the person you got innocent on dies to confirm they are protown, we don't know if you are sane or insane. Right now, I think the best option here would be to reveal who you got the innocent on, for several reasons:

1) If you get killed any time soon, we would have no way to check your sanity to know whether or not to lynch IH

2) Even if you reveal an innocent investigation, it will help us. The wolves won't kill the innocent person, because they don't want to confirm IH's guilt (or vice versa, depending on your sanity). Other scum *might* target the innocent person, but that just means that we're trading one innocent for a guaranteed guilty. Since we don't know your sanity, we might even get lucky by having scum kill the guilty person, so we don't even have to waste a lynch.

[Mastermind of Sin]

It looks even better for us, since we might be trading an scum for a scum, rather than an innocent for a scum. Either way, it's a good deal, though.

[Mastermind of Sin]

This is exactly why revealing the innocent isn't harmful, XReyoX. The "innocent" person isn't guaranteed innocent, just non-mafia (N9V corrected himself that he finds mafia, not wolves, remember?). IH *should* be lynched, but we should know who the other person is before the day ends. Even if we have docs living that doesn't guarantee that N9V will live through the night, and I'm not taking any chances in a theme game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

This is more perfect than I could've imagined. Mafia can kill Raffles all they please, they'll just get rid of likely scum for us.

Vote: IH

He's still two away, I believe, so we'll wait for Akbar before adding more.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I have no information to base a guess on what happened to Flay, so I'm not going to try.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Indeed

[Mastermind of Sin]

Do we need to get prods on them?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thanks, Fuldu. I was reading the thread and going "ohshit" when I saw he was one away, but you got to the unvote before I did, so I feel better now.

BM, I'm pretty sure DGB is referring to recent comments of yours in this game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Very interesting...

[Mastermind of Sin]

It's not like I have role information to share. What are you expecting?

[Mastermind of Sin]

For the record, IH is around and posting in other threads, but ignoring this one.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: IH

[Mastermind of Sin]

psych

[Mastermind of Sin]

????

[Mastermind of Sin]

Damnit. I was doing well, too. Go errmm...wolfies!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Bleh, the game was pretty much stacked against us. The mafia had 4 people with 3 abilities and guys that could take over those abilities. We (wolves) had 2 abilities that we couldn't use every night, AND we had only the

possibility

of recruiting 2 people, since not everyone was recruitable. AND we were forced to kill the night after recruiting someone, because they needed food to gain strength again, so our night choices were restricted. And that's not even getting started on the town roles...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Err, 2 abilities for the mafia, not 3. Godfather immunity (inheritable) and the gardener's ability to mess up kill methods.

[Mastermind of Sin]

and the gardener's ability to mess up kill methods.

I had the ability to mess up kills? That's news to me...

didn't you say something about messing with how the mafia kills showed up?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Out of curiousity can any of the mafia say why they killed me? I was kinda sad, I didn't expect to die that soon.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I refuse to let you win that game, Tar...

[Mastermind of Sin]

True. But I don't like to rely on small chances...