Song Contest U-Pick - GAME OVER

[Mastermind of Sin]

This is for all you new people: I only have one rule. Everyone fights. No one quits. You don't do your job, I'll shoot you myself. You get me?

Vote: evilpacman18

Ninja-edit: Parama, your #2 doesn't make much sense to me. Why are you attributing not paying attention to the thread as a scummy action? It's obviously WIFOM either way, but scum do have inherently more motive to pay close attention to what they say in the thread, because they're trying not to look scummy. Town have the same motive in a way, but it's not as prominent.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I really disagree that scum will want to pay attention more to the thread than town. Town needs to be constantly looking out for scummy posts to play to their win condition. I personally think the motivation is equal but if one is more likely than the other it would be town.

~Agent Minnesota

I'm not saying there isn't motivation for town, but I do think the motivation is stronger for scum. Both town and scum have to read the thread to find scummy posts, because scum have to fake scumhunting just as much as town have to do real scumhunting. However, scum have the additional onus of needing to make sure that their posts don't look scummy, whereas that is less of a concern for town. Some will argue that town should make an active effort to look town because it helps us (and they're not necessarily wrong), but scum have a very strong and obvious reason to watch what they say and how it might look, which on a basic level means that they will probably pay more attention to the thread than the average town player. This will all eventually devolve into WIFOM, though, but at the most basic level it prompted me to question why Parama thought that particular facet of Garruk's play was scummy.

P-Edit: Parama is doing good things, and I agree that site meta for the beginning of a game is stupid. However, that meta has not really changed at all for the 8+ years I've been on this site. People have always fucked around for no reason at the start of a game, it's just how they do it that changes over time.

Also, pecanpie is making absolutely no sense and I'm pretty sure they sucked his brains out.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I need a corporal. You're it until you're dead or I find someone better.

Unvote, Vote: Garruk Relentless

[Mastermind of Sin]

Dat bandwagon vote... We must meet this threat with our valor, our blood, indeed with our very lives to ensure that human civilization, not insect, dominates this galaxy now and always!

Unvote, Vote: Porkens

Also, Garruk is pretty town. We can move on to more important things like lynching scum now, rather than continuing to flood the thread with pointless back-and-forth wall posts between town. K?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Prana, I'm pretty sure that vote only counts if you actually bold the name of the person you want to vote.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Porkens so far. But you? Wagon hopping like crazy. Definitely nothing authentic in Garruk vote. It's absolutely as much a bandwagon vote as you accuse Porkens of. Moreso, really. So, bad votes and calling someone out (inaccurately) for doing something you're doing.

VOTE: Mastermind of Sin

50 Shades, Desperado, Formerfish, Sajin, Pacman, and Generic haven't even posted yet.

Wait, wait...let me get this straight. I've made three votes so far this game:

1) evilpacman (no one was voting him)
2) Garruk (5 people voting him)
3) Porkens (1 person voting him)

...and you accuse me of "Wagon hopping"? What wagons did I hop between?

Let's not even forget to mention that there were 5 people voting Garruk when I voted EPM, and there were still just the same 5 people voting him when I changed my vote a page later (literally no shift in momentum whatsoever), so I'd be very interested to see you justify that as a "bandwagon vote".

LOL. If we lynch people based on your twisted logick, mankind just became an endangered species.

I like Pasch too.

Yo MoS what makes Porkens more of a wagon vote than, ohh, me?

Isn't it obvious? Porkens tried way harder to justify his bandwagon vote than any of the rest of you. No one else up to that point had really tried to hide the fact that they were just wagonning, and my vote was more for reaction than anything else. Porkens, on the other hand, stretched to try to find multiple reasons to vote for Garruk (who is looking pretty town), so that he could get on the wagon.

A verdict of scum has yet to be rendered, but the suspect is charged with the following crimes:

1. Wriggling like a fish in the first degree.
2. Meta defense AKA "You would trust me if you

knrew

Internet."
3. Why me = Fry me
4. Multiple counts of misdemeanor AtE
5. At least three counts of OMGUS

Now, I'm willing to settle out of court if the defense can show signs of rehabilitation. Otherwise, The state will proceed with indictment and seek the death penalty.

This kind of post is classic scum. Everything comes full circle...

[Mastermind of Sin]

I agree mostly with MoS right now with regards to the gentleman who was my primary source of entertainment this evening.

Everybody needs a friend like me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wow, is there anyone in this game i know?

We got reinforced. Most of them are fresh out of newbies.

...

We're the old men, Spy.

[Mastermind of Sin]

This style of bashing the person voting you tends to come from your scum game MoS. Also lots of noise from your posts. Why even post troopers flavor?

Vote: MoS

When you vote, you are exercising political authority, you're using force. And force, my friends, is violence. The supreme authority from which all other authorities are derived.

My mother always told me that violence doesn't solve anything.

V/LA 11/22-12/1, very unlikely to be able to post except maybe Monday/Tuesday.

Also, Porkenscum is loving the counterattack that's being mounted for him while he hides out without posting for over 24 hours.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Nacho: Porkens was making a classic scum post because of the way he tried to wrap up his accusations in a light-hearted feel. Going with the whole "lawyer" gimmick is a form of the AtE fallacy; he's hoping the "amusement" of his attack will make the rest of the town like it better. This form of AtE is pretty common from scum.

For example, this reaction is a perfect example of why PorkenScum did what he did.

In post 87, Porkens wrote:
A verdict of scum has yet to be rendered, but the suspect is charged with the following crimes:

1. Wriggling like a fish in the first degree.
2. Meta defense AKA "You would trust me if you knrew Internet."
3. Why me = Fry me
4. Multiple counts of misdemeanor AtE
5. At least three counts of OMGUS

Now, I'm willing to settle out of court if the defense can show signs of rehabilitation. Otherwise, The state will proceed with indictment and seek the death penalty.

The case is really bad but the roleplaying is entertaining and feels way too comfortable to be put-on. Who else is scum Porkens?

I want to see more content from EPM, Maenara, and Messiah Complex.

I've liked Agent Minnesota so far, but something in the back of my head keeps nagging at me that he's playing me. IGMEOY.

Porkens can wait for now, especially since he's decided to try flattering me by calling me tunneling town.

V/LA 11/22-12/1, very unlikely to be able to post except maybe Monday/Tuesday.

VOTE: PranaDevil

MoS can wait for now, especially since he's decided to just clam up.

You're 0-for-Everything right now, but sure, keep trying to take cheap shots at me after your attempt to get me lynched failed.

Unvote, Vote: Paschendale

The only good bug is a dead bug.

[Mastermind of Sin]

nono

we are trying to help you bus porkens so you can get town cred don't wimp out now

I expect the best and I give the best. Here's the beer. Here's the entertainment. Now have fun. That's an order.

Also, I don't need town cred. I'm me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Well, this is boring. The guy who's on V/LA is making more of an effort to be here than the people who are supposed to be here. I'm from Buenos Aires and I say, KILL 'EM ALL!

Mod, it probably doesn't make much sense to even bother with replacements until Saturday at the earliest, what with the holiday and all. It's going to be hard enough for us to keep people posting, but imagine trying to find a replacement while everyone's off on holiday...what's the point?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Now, I'd like to grow to not suck at this game, which I evidently do 'cause I get five votes in two pages, but by the gods below, give me a chance.

Figuring things out for yourself is practically the only freedom anyone really has nowadays. Use that freedom.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I like to sheep them because it tends to make good things happen

Figuring things out for yourself is practically the only freedom anyone really has nowadays. Use that freedom.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh look, Desperado is wagon hopping again. Guy's just full of conviction. He's one of the lazy or scum crowd. Either way, a detriment to town. Notscience is apparently taking the same route. This is not out of character for either of them.

Don't worry baby, you're still scum.

Also: "A detriment to town" are you fucking high son? If there is one thing I am not when I roll town, it is a detriment to the town. The sooner you understand this the better it's going to be for you, regardless of your alignment.

I wouldn't worry about it. We've already established pretty thoroughly that Pasch doesn't know the meaning of the term "wagon hopping". If he insists on continuing to be scum, I only have one piece of advice, Desp:

Forget the insecticide, bring on the nukes!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Spyrex's case on Generic is pretty juicy. I want to see where this goes. (Don't worry Pasch, I won't forget about your scum-ass. Or PorkenScum, for that matter)

Unvote, Vote: Generic

Young people from all over the globe are joining up to fight for the future. If you're doing your part, say the following in your next post:

"I'm doing my part."

Then vote Generic.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Generic

notscience

caledfwitch

(

VIGPLZ

)

Those vigs calls are AWFUL. Picking people whose deaths would give us the least information possible...not to mention not wanting ANY of his top lynch bait vigged? That's what scum do.

Unvote, Vote: Porkens

Put your hand on that wall, trooper. PUT YOUR HAND ON THAT WALL!

[Mastermind of Sin]

You like to follow the hot wagon at the time don't you pasch...

NS was an RVS vote. No one else was voting for MoS. Prana's wagon certainly wasn't hot. And I'm the third vote on you.

If that's the best you've got, then I feel even better about voting for you.

To the rest of the town -

Here's a tip: Aim for the nerve stem, and put it down for good.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The only good scum is a dead scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Scum say things like this to extend their lifespan, because it puts us on the hook to leave them alive for another day:

I said I would do a full analysis of the players left day 2 because I don't see any point in putting my back out if I'm lynched or vigged.

If you were really town, you'd have the opposite stance. The best thing a townsperson can do before they die is give the town as much information as they can about their thoughts on the game, because after they die, they become the only people whose posts we can actually trust to be 100% town-motivated.

Tell me the moral difference, if any, between pro-town and town-aligned?

Answer:

The difference lies in the field of civic virtue. A pro-town player accepts personal responsibility for the safety of the body politic, of which he is a member, defending it, if need be, with his life. The town-aligned does not.

Generic is claiming to be town-aligned, but he is not embodying the truly pro-town.

Unvote, Vote: Generic

At this point, I don't care which one of my top three scumreads gets lynched. This game is stalling like a motherfucker and I'm starting to get bored.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Closest he comes is sheeping Spyrex' case and "seeing where it goes."

Then he said

If you were really town, you'd have the opposite stance. The best thing a townsperson can do before they die is give the town as much information as they can about their thoughts on the game, because after they die, they become the only people whose posts we can actually trust to be 100% town-motivated.

Tell me the moral difference, if any, between pro-town and town-aligned?

Answer: The difference lies in the field of civic virtue. A pro-town player accepts personal responsibility for the safety of the body politic, of which he is a member, defending it, if need be, with his life. The town-aligned does not.

Generic is claiming to be town-aligned, but he is not embodying the truly pro-town.

Unvote, Vote: Generic

Which reads PL to me

PL is just a small part of my vote. I think Generic is just trying to survive another day because he can see the momentum of the game...but instead of trying to help the town, he's being purely self-interested. That reeks of scum (or SK), not town. Also, I'm compromising on my #3 scumread because there aren't enough votes on Porkens or Pasch right now. I'd gladly switch to either of them if it seemed like we could get it done before deadline.

As for my wording, c'mon...has no one here seen Starship Troopers? Jeez...

MoS is still a good vote. He's two-faced.

I don't think you even know what that means...



This game is quickly reminding me why I retired. There are a handful of people actually playing, several more derping around being dumbasses, and everyone else is just jacking off in a corner and not participating. Come on you apes, you wanna live forever? Start posting, and not just prod-dodge bullshit.

People who might as well not be in the game right now:

- Formerfish
- EPM
- Garruk

As far as I'm concerned, only Garruk out of that list has left any impression at all on this game, and they basically stopped contributing anything as soon as the Garruk-wagon moved on. Plus, we've already had 4 replacements on Day 1. WTF is that shit?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Not so Town

8. Paschendale - Nacho's 274 is a good summary of why.
11. Hiraki

Sajin

- need to re-ISO, but not liking him at all atm
14. evilpacman18* - mostly due to long periods with no posting. The out-of-synchness of some of his opinions could be due to periods of inactivity but I don't like some of his stances.
15. Porkens - lots of scumposts
19. Micc

Maenara

- maenera looked terrible for the most part. Micc hasn't done much since replacing in. I want to understand why this wagon dissipated.

Hey morph wanna reboot the Porkens or Pasch wagons with me? I need a corporal. You're it until you're dead or I find someone better.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm slightly less than ambivalent toward an EPM flashlynch. I'm not townreading him, but he's not in my top 3 either. Would only switch to prevent NL at this point...Porkens/Pasch/Generic are still better votes. We must meet this threat with our valor, our blood, indeed with our very lives to ensure that townie civilization, not scum, dominates this song contest now and always!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Porkens

Duh.

In other news:

- morph looks weird today. His interactions with Nachomollie seem off
- Nachomollie is townposting today. Pretty much agreed on the not liking Majiffy's posts
- pecanpie's early posting today leaves bad feelings in my gut
- T-Bone wanting to go back and dissect the Hiraki lynch sounds like scum who knows it was a clusterfuck that will work out in favor of his team if he gets the town to focus on it
- Garruk and notsci continuing to derp through this game and be generally useless
- SpyreX, where is that Micc vote coming from? I don't care that you're continuing your vote from yesterday. You didn't justify it then and you didn't do so now. So what gives?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Fuck.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If I was "derping" This game would probably be >20 pages longer btw

If this is you not derping then uhhhhh...

...

They sucked his brains out.

[Mastermind of Sin]

VOTE: mosy

Nacho, you once asked me for advice. You want some now?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sure.

Never

pass up a good thing!

[Mastermind of Sin]

mosy why not micc?

I don't recall having much of an opinion either way. Pretty sure they were on my shitlist for doing absolutely nothing this game, but as a result I don't have much of anything to base a read off of. So I'm pretty ambivalent. Feel free to make a case, but I'm pretty happy with my scumreads atm.

Can someone remind me why we aren't wagoning EPM

He's quicky moving into the top of my scumreads based on yesterday, and his posting today looks shitty to me.

Alright, so I finally got to talk to SSK.

We're claiming.

We're Poe--Haunted. Roleblocker. We blocked SpyreX last night. I assume you guys can do the math.

You're dumb. Like...seriously. Why the fuck would you think that claim makes sense right now? I have some more thoughts/questions on this, but I think it's best to hold off for now. I've had a townread on you for a while, so this can wait I think.

Porkens' 1357 has so many things wrong with it:

1) Why would anyone put Formerfish in a townbloc? Or Fake-mastin, for that matter?
2) You've been here since 2008 and you've never seen a town RB? You're shitting me right? Town was the original alignment for RB...it only became a common scum role in very recent years because of its inclusion in one of the newbie setups.

My only hesitation is that I don’t think I’ve ever seen a town role blocker. Anyone?

You are Hannah Hart, Town Post Restricted 2-shot Roleblocker!
Image
As the host of My Drunk Kitchen, you... mostly drink a lot. Also, you make tons of puns! (Punderful ones!) Oh yeah, and you cook. You’re actually getting better at that, too, I guess.
Cheese Pleasin’ Me: You must include a pun in every post. If you forget 3 or more times during a day phase, you lose your vote for that phase.
Hello!: Twice in the game, you may visit someone and give them alcohol, which will roleblock them.
BOOP-BOOP!: You have a vote.

Win Condition: You win when no threats to the town remain in the game.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by PMing me your rolename, alignment, and brief description of your abilities.

Lawl. They sucked his brains out.

3) That vigbucket is still and always will be completely retarded. Why don't you want anyone you think is actually scum to be vigged? For that matter, why are you calling for vig kills and speculating about SKs on Day 2 when there were no kills last night?

Watching people completely ignore how scummy Porkens is being is so frustrating. Genocide doesn't compare to this.

I was totally feeling morph's responses re:Roleblock, until this:

Roleblocker's chances of hitting scum night 1 in a 20 player game is pretty small.

...as if a Doctor's chances of protecting the kill target night 1 weren't equally small. This is a huge statistical fallacy that confuses a priori probability of a specific event with a fortiori probability of a specific class of events. It serves absolutely no purpose in advancing any logical argument, but it does help morph make it seem more improbable that Garruk correctly blocked SpyreX.

FoS: morph, SpyreX

Nachomollie, I will love you forever if you help me lynch PorkenScum. We can deal with the Garruk-SpyreX clusterfuck tomorrow, I think. No later than that, though. We need to get some more information first, but we shouldn't let it fester.

Here's a quick off-the-cuff snapshot of my reads:

Scummy

Porkens
Paschendale
evilpacman18
Generic

morph/SpyreX (they are somewhat intertwined)
Agent Minnesota
T-Bone

Micc
Formerfish
pieceofpecanpie
fake-mastin

caledfwitch
notscience
Majiffy

Garruk Relentless
Desperado
Nachomollie

Townie

[Mastermind of Sin]

Nachomollie, I will love you forever if you help me lynch PorkenScum. We can deal with the Garruk-SpyreX clusterfuck tomorrow, I think. No later than that, though. We need to get some more information first, but we shouldn't let it fester.

No, really.

My vote isn't moving.

They'll learn, They messed, With the wrong species.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Prepare for Battle!

Where the fuck are these people:

caledfwitch
Agent Minnesota
Micc

Pasch's most recent post is actually pretty reasonable. Not sure how I feel about that.

EPM's 1406 was also mostly reasonable. Not that scum can't sound reasonable from time to time, but I'm noting the change because EPM hasn't been doing or saying much that seems useful or logical so far this game. My gut feeling is scum that's trying harder to head off the potential wagon on him that seems plausible based on various grumblings throughout the game.

Porkens is scum for any/all of the following (not all-inclusive):

1) Trying to make a serious attack in a lighthearted manner so that he positions himself easily to either back out of it (oh, couldn't you tell I was just having fun?) or push it harder, depending on how people react.
2) Calling for vig kills on people he thinks are town (coincidentally trying to tie up the vig kill so that it doesn't get aimed at his scumbuddies that he's probably bussing). Continuing to call for vig kills after a N1 with no kills is just a way to add fluff to his posting and talk about things that don't actually matter (as much as calling for vig kills ever matters...)
3) Claiming that the Micc slot has "reeked" of scum (right along there with SpyreX, neither of them giving a case for it)
4) Trying to cast doubt on Garruk's claim at the same time that he calls them town, AND while he ties morph to SpyreX in "defending so hard" (any of the above would be fine in isolation, but this reeks of scum not committing to a stance so that they have options depending on game momentum, yet again)

I don't understand the point of Generic speculating publicly on whether or not SpyreX would be a NK target.

fake-mastin, why don't you believe SpyreX is scum?

notsci, how do you feel about Agent Minnesota, fake-mastin, and Paschendale?

[Mastermind of Sin]

FYI I actually am HERE for at least a few hours while everyone is asleep

Since you're here for a few hours, give us your cases on Micc and EPM, SpyreX. In every age there is a cause worth fighting for, so why don't you put in that "waste of time" you mentioned and actually help us understand why you have those suspicions?

[Mastermind of Sin]

That said, I'm not seeing much reason to believe Spy's claim at all. That's the one argument Jiffy doesn't make. Yeah, maybe it's better to leave it soft, but it doesn't seem particularly true.

I haven't claimed anything and you already don't believe it? Thats a pretty neat trick.

If you really need the claim from me, I will but I'd rather not. The one thing I will say I'm pretty damn positive Garruk is telling the truth and town.

Are you denying that the intent of this post was to claim that you are a PR? Why would anyone be reluctant to claim VT?

I still can't tell if you are scum or just stupid. You only wrote two sentences and still somehow managed to convey that you don't understand mafia AT ALL.

Sometimes I come back from retirement for a game and it feels like I'm on the front lines of the next frontier; encountering alien species that have not evolved to the point where they can understand universal communication standards. So frustrating...Nacho please save me

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why would he bring up claiming at all? No one asked him for one.

Really?

I say we force Spyrex to hard claim. If he is town, #2 is probably true and he will have protection.

Unvote, Vote: SpyreX

Hmmm...

oh it just occurred to me Porkens is also scum for wasting time talking about a vigbucket/defending his choices for it when there was no kills tonight

Is there an echo in here?

3) That vigbucket is still and always will be completely retarded. Why don't you want anyone you think is actually scum to be vigged? For that matter, why are you calling for vig kills and speculating about SKs on Day 2 when there were no kills last night?

Porkens is scum for any/all of the following (not all-inclusive):

[snip]

Continuing to call for vig kills after a N1 with no kills is just a way to add fluff to his posting and talk about things that don't actually matter (as much as calling for vig kills ever matters...)

EPM acting like he just had an independent revelation that hadn't already been fed to him multiple times in-thread really makes me consider giving up on my conviction to lynch Porkens today...grrrrr...

That said, I certainly agree with this potshot:

Porkens, vote pecan, she's

obvscum

to you isn't she?

Put your hand on that wall, trooper. PUT YOUR HAND ON THAT WALL!

[Mastermind of Sin]

morph, why are you not lynching Porkens with us? When you vote, you are exercising political authority, you're using force. Let's use that force to lynch us some scum!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Uhhh,,,,what?

My mother always told me that violence doesn't solve anything.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I keep forgetting that you are not BBmolla...keep getting molla confused with mollie (esp cuz you're playing with Nacho) and think that you know me. Then I remember that we've basically never played together and you know jack shit about me.

*sigh*

Genocide doesn't compare to this.

Although I have to say that you seem awfully quick to accuse me of trying to set up "another" mislynch. Who, exactly, pushed through Hiraki's lynch? Please, enlighten us all, oh wise one.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I want to lynch Porkens.

Hurry up and bus him already, then!

Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes. Of all the so-called natural human rights that have ever been invented, liberty is least likely to be cheap and is never free of cost.

ie GET THE FUCK OFF YOUR ASS AND DO SOMETHING USEFUL FOR ONCE!

God I am this close to voting EPM...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Porkens play today is a complete 180 on day 1.

Is it enough to see him lynched? Since spyrex dangled the bait of his role porkens has begun to panic.

Aside from hitting the panic button, how is his play different from Day 1? It's been consistent, albeit consistently not very good.

I'm pretty sure Generic is just mudslinging random stuff to give him the chance to bus his scumbuddy when we finally get this wagon moving.

Not liking morph's responses to T-Bone

at all

.

Then again, T-Bone's responses to Nachomollie don't fill me ith confidence either.

I'm from Buenos Aries and I say, KILL 'EM ALL!

like right now you are voting epm...why exactly? after mosy whom you were supposed to be looking at fosed him?

morph obviously thinks that everyone I call scum is a buddy I'm bussing. For that matter, mollie seems to think that way, too.

Hmm...

Porkens/EPM/Paschendale/morph/T-Bone/Generic for scumteam? Probably not 6 scum, but I think if we lynch from this group we'll hit a lot of them.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Formerfish reminds me of myself when I much younger and far more headstrong...ah, the good times.

Which is why I keep going "hey so and so, tell me about my scumreads" but then no one is giving me what I need so

Did you just admit to fishing for other people to make your cases for you? This is exactly what scum try to do...

Vote: Formerfish

Vote Porkens instead.

Never

pass up a good thing.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm still not sure where the DV hate is coming from. I haven't gotten any bad vibes from his posts, and his entrance to the game seems genuine. Combine this with the fact that everyone who's posting is either ganging up on him or content to sit on the sidelines, and that leads me to believe he doesn't have anybody in the game (ie scumbuddies) looking out for his well-being. I obviously don't agree with all of his reads, but for the most part they're not bad. You can't step on these ones, at least. My main concern at this point is that he didn't have *anything* at all to say about the two scummiest players in the game (Porkens & EPM). That makes my spidey sense tingle a bit, but otherwise I'd tentatively lean town on DV at this point, so I the only reason I can think of for his wagon is that people got tired of pushing their scumreads and took the easy path instead (and scum are more than willing to let that happen and/or be there to help it along).

[Mastermind of Sin]

Not liking morph's responses to T-Bone

at all

.

What don't you like about them?

If it was explainable beyond just the feeling I got from it, I would have explained it already, duh.

Then again, T-Bone's responses to Nachomollie don't fill me ith confidence either.

So what is this suggesting to you about our respective alignments?

Why are you asking useless questions that you already know the answer to?

like right now you are voting epm...why exactly? after mosy whom you were supposed to be looking at fosed him?

morph obviously thinks that everyone I call scum is a buddy I'm bussing. For that matter, mollie seems to think that way, too.

Hmm...

I'm not thinking much about associative stuff until I see a scum flip. Right now, I'm trying to figure out which is my strongest scum read. You're not doing a lot to make me feel better about you while I go through that process. It's like you totally missed that I've been scumreading you since not long after we replaced in. You've exhorted me to vote with you multiple times. Finally when there are a few pages worth of posts with Mollie badgering us for an analysis on you, NOW you seem to suddenly notice what we think of your alignment

Some scum pay a lot of attention to thread details. Some don't.

I'm wondering where you fall on that continuum and if this is alignment indicative either way.

I've always known you were scumreading me...what gave you the impression that I didn't? Do you honestly think that I'm just going to be petty and refuse to interact with people who scumread me as if it was impossible that they might actually be town and capable of logical thought?

I gave you benefit of the doubt on both counts at one point. You've already lost one, and you're doing a great job of making me lose faith in the other.

I'm still not sure where the DV hate is coming from. I haven't gotten any bad vibes from his posts, and his entrance to the game seems genuine. Combine this with the fact that everyone who's posting is either ganging up on him or content to sit on the sidelines, and that leads me to believe he doesn't have anybody in the game (ie scumbuddies) looking out for his well-being. I obviously don't agree with all of his reads, but for the most part they're not bad. You can't step on these ones, at least. My main concern at this point is that he didn't have *anything* at all to say about the two scummiest players in the game (Porkens & EPM). That makes my spidey sense tingle a bit, but otherwise I'd tentatively lean town on DV at this point, so I the only reason I can think of for his wagon is that people got tired of pushing their scumreads and took the easy path instead (and scum are more than willing to let that happen and/or be there to help it along).

DV's been in the game for about five seconds and it's the holidays. I think it's premature to suggest he's town because no one is defending him.

You're being too short-sighted. I feel like this has been going on throughout all 3 incarnations of that slot. People have been calling them scum, no one's seen fit to take any opposite stance, and they've all just been waiting for an active player to finally step into the slot so they could justify voting someone who was present rather than getting called out for lynching an AFK player. I don't think this is an inherently scummy tactic (just good strategy for getting someone lynched, regardless of your reasons), but I think it's telling that the stance on this slot has been very one-sided throughout the game from what I remember.

The way that people continue to sheep onto DV without much of a case (it's not like we're in danger of deadline) just reaffirms the point I was making. Come on you

apes

sheep, you wanna live forever? Try thinking for yourself. At least EPM is helping bus his scumbuddy, that's better than most of you fuckers.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, please answer my question. I appreciate you defending me, but as I'm sure you can understand it doesn't really make you any more town to me.

DV, there wasn't enough momentum against you that I would believe that NONE of your scumbuddies would even make an attempt at defending you in any way. This has been a wagon of apathy, and I don't believe scum get lynched apathetically, especially with no one townreading them at all. That's not to say it's never happened in the long history of this site, but I'm very skeptical of a wagon that forms this way, to say the least.

That's conveniently non-specific. Which responses? T-Bone and I have been interacting practically since I replaced in.

Call it convenient if you want; I don't really give a fuck. I was referring to your most recent back and forth before I made that comment, and it doesn't feel like your interaction with him is coming from town. That's all I have on that, or I'd have pushed it harder.

Because I don't. I'm trying to figure out how this relates to your nachomollie read. Because understanding where a player is coming from is the first step to being able to find a potential town motivation for what they are doing.

You already know my reads on you, T-Bone, and Nachomollie, so you have already admitted to know the answer to the question even if you continue professing not to. Please stop wasting my time.

Until this post, you haven't really interacted with me. "Yo, vote my scumread" didn't give me anything useful about your thoughts on my stances - in fact it appeared you were blissfully unaware of my stances, and suggested you weren't actually paying attention to my post content.

I was calling for you to help me vote people you claimed to be scumreading; in what way did that make you think I was "blissfully unaware" of your stances? I don't even...wut?

I gave you benefit of the doubt on both counts at one point. You've already lost one, and you're doing a great job of making me lose faith in the other.

I thought you had already lost faith. Aren't you scumreading me? Aren't I T-Bone's scumbuddy?

Scumreading you and believing you incapable of logical deduction are two very different things. However, I'm glad to report that you've successfully convinced me that both are quite possible.

They sucked his brains out, folks.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ok, now I'm pretty sure DV is town; can we get back to something more productive? I'm doing my part. Are you? Join the Porkens wagon and save the world. Service guarantees

citizenship

townieness!

Would compromise on: EPM, morph, T-Bone, Paschendale, Generic

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't have a particularly townish read on SpyreX. However, I don't have much evidence that he's scum, either. He's in my "leaning scum" category mainly due to lack of looking protown. He's not in my top scumreads, though, so I don't know why I'd ever consider him even as a compromise today, when there are much scummier players to lynch. You can't step on these ones.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Of all my compromise options, SpyreX is the one I'm most ok with so

vote:SpyreX

50, why aren't you trying to lynch DV, you very clearly called him scum after one of his first posts.

We've still got a week. Why are you compromising already? It's almost like you didn't actually want to lynch your scumbuddy Porkens.

Unvote, Vote: EPM

Pasch needs to die.

You're just now realizing this? I've been saying that for a while... -_-

As for SpyreX, a few things really bug me. First of all, after Garruk’s claim, SpyreX said he would be willing to claim if necessary. However, when I (essentially) said it was necessary, he replied I should be murdered. I think he read the tide of opinion and switched his stance accordingly. Many of you have said that SpyreX shouldn’t claim in order to WIFOM the mafia. In a vacuum, I agree. However, with the roleblock, and the NK, I think pinning SpyreX to a claim will be much more valuable to the town in the long run. Finally, again, sure: a million things could have happened last night. However, the scenarios I posited earlier, I maintain, are, by far, the most likely, and, therefore, it is safe for SpyreX to claim. I say that it is important for the town to understand whether SpyreX was involved in the NK or not.

What? Why would one person who is very likely to be scum calling for SpyreX to claim making it "necessary"? How are you so arrogant as to think that your influence is so strong that SpyreX refusing to claim because you asked for it is him somehow going back on his word?

Can we please lynch Porkens? I already want to switch my vote back, but the only person who would vote me with him is EPM (who was only doing it half-heartedly because they're scumbuddies).

I'm from Buenos Aries and I say, KILL 'EM ALL!

[Mastermind of Sin]

I was just about to post this when the site went down. Stupid tigers.

I'm here now.

Mollie, I decided to try for some actual interaction with MoS before doing a static analysis. I was a little surprised that what I got back was as venomous as it was.

First game with him. Was that interaction typical of town-him interacting with a scumread?

I have never played with him before! I will have to reread that exchange cos tbh I skimmed I didn't understand what you were trying to do there.

what info did you gather from that exchange?

morph, I've only played with a few people in this game: T-Bone, Nacho, MafiaSSK (maybe...I know he's played in games I've modded but can't remember if we've actually played together), and SpyreX

Only SpyreX has played a significant number of games with me, as far as I can recall. I've maybe done a handful or less each with T-Bone and Nacho.

I'm not going to bother to self-meta because I get the feeling you wouldn't give me any credence even if I quoted you past games myself. Plus, anyone who puts much stock in meta or past behavior is deluding themselves. Either way, it's more fun to watch you try to get the information from people who have absolutely no idea.

Figuring things out for yourself is practically the only freedom anyone really has nowadays. Use that freedom.

mosy what song did you pick? cos your posts continue to give the impression that you have to post in starship troopers speak and I can't really think of a song that would go with that

No comment.

How are you so arrogant as to think that your influence is so strong that SpyreX refusing to claim because you asked for it is him somehow going back on his word?

Don't you think this is not very scummy and in fact more likely from town?

You think arrogance is more likely from town than scum? The arrogance itself is a null-tell. I'm just frustrated with the fact that he's still scummy and no one seems to see it.

Also, scum so vehemently trying to out the claim makes me actually doubt my "leaning scum" read on SpyreX.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I did tell you what I've got so far. The exchange isn't over and I'm intrigued by something atm. I wish MoS would post more frequently. I don't want to explain what I'm seeing until I have a better feel about something I'm picking up in his playstyle.

I'm not gonna start posting more frequently just to make you happy. I'm well past the golden days where I could afford to just sit around the computer refreshing...heck, I used to be that kid that would make sure that every forum on the site listed me as the most recent poster (as if that was a worthwhile pursuit, LOL). No more, though. Plus, I'm tiring of coming up with new quotes every time, and I'm having to recycle a lot. So I'm definitely not going to engage in any quick back-and-forth two-liner exchanges.

You think arrogance is more likely from town than scum? The arrogance itself is a null-tell. I'm just frustrated with the fact that he's still scummy and no one seems to see it.

I don't mean arrogance in general, but that specific feeling, where you believe that what you think should be what happens, and expect it to be what happens. I think this is much more of a townie attitude than a scum one. If town, he honestly believes that it's the right course of action, so it's not a huge leap for him to expect it to happen. Scum are less likely to expect town to do what they say because they know that their posts are motivated by self-interest rather than helping the town.

You haven't met Internet Stranger, have you? =P

Whoever made all those posts about previous games (probably mollie) is going off topic and deserves a bullet to the head. USE CONTENT FROM THE GAME PLEASE, I OFFER ACTUAL CONTENT IN EXCHANGE.

This! We must meet this threat with our valor, our blood, indeed with our very lives to ensure that human civilization, not

insect

meta-freak, dominates this galaxy now and always!

LOL did Pecan just claim scum?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I just want to point out that of the 6 "wagons" listed in that VC, the two with the most votes (DV/SpyreX) are the least likely to be scum (SpyreX/AMinn is probably a tossup, but whatever). That makes me incredibly sad. What the actual fuck are you dumbshits doing?

P.S. - morph I have no idea wtf you're on about. Nachomollie is correct in that you're being fucking weird. You act like you expect me to respond to something... *NEWSFLASH* nobody has any clue what you're saying! Stop being cryptic and fucking man up and explain yourself, because everyone's just sitting here looking at you like you're rain man or something. They're doing their part. Are you?

[Mastermind of Sin]

P.S. - morph I have no idea wtf you're on about. Nachomollie is correct in that you're being fucking weird. You act like you expect me to respond to something... *NEWSFLASH* nobody has any clue what you're saying! Stop being cryptic and fucking man up and explain yourself, because everyone's just sitting here looking at you like you're rain man or something. They're doing their part. Are you?

Well then.

What I thought I might be seeing in your post wasn't there, and what is there appears to be garden variety knowledge of alignment.

I expect the best and I give the best. Here's the beer. Here's the entertainment. Now have fun. That's an order.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EPM and Porkens are blatantly bussing each other and nobody will help me lynch EITHER of them. Like, seriously, WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK?

I need a corporal.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What isn't going to happen is me getting run up claiming and then watching it dissolve. So, if you're committed you better actually be committed for the ride.

Yea I get the feeling that scum are hoping to run you up for a claim right before deadline and then get a mislynch as people kneejerk off your wagon and have to find something before the day ends. It's what I'd do, after all.

The problem is, the rest of the town are all dumbshits who seem content to let this happen. When you vote, you are exercising political authority, you're using force. And force, my friends, is violence. The supreme authority from which all other authorities are derived. So let's get fucking violent! (and lynch Porkens/EPM)

[Mastermind of Sin]

this is a weird post. 6 shades of dumb is an allusion to our hydra and yet...we are voting for the same person he is?

VOTE: spyrella

Stop being dumb.

MoS... I think he's town. I like the fact hes willing to look at other things. I REALLY dont like the fact nowhe brought up Porkens again instead of crusading hard on EPM if he doesn't like either of us for a lynch.

He's part of the special epidemic that is personal crusades + delicious butternuts + lazy that is this game, but more likely town than a few of the morass.

It's not a personal crusade to want to lynch scum...and I'm not going to stop reminding people that Porkens is scum just because I have my vote on his scumbuddy. Life's tough, ain't it? Seriously though...you and DV both look WAAAAAY more town than EPM/Porkens. We should lynch one of them instead.

What the fuck are fake-mastin and caled doing? They're the ones who aren't making good use of their votes.

Mod: Can we get prods on fake-mastin and caled? Neither have posted in 2014.

I'm willing to entertain the possibility that MoS simply rubs me the wrong way to the nth power.

Newsflash: You being a dipshit and pissing me off isn't indicative of me being scum. Shocker.

Naked force has resolved more issues throughout world history than any other factor. The contrary opinion that violence never solves anything is wishful thinking at its worst. So, nut up and deal with it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If ffery and cabd look into Scummer of Love Invitational and Balto Invitational (I think?), they might see what I'm talking about. Hint, hint.

Wow...just...wow. If you had actually read Scummer of Love, you'd know that it could not be used as a meta reference on me at all.

...and I wasn't even in Balto...wtf?

Your ability to build meta cases is absolutely terrible, mollie. You decided to use Always On (a game which occurred 90% outside the thread and thus has no record for you to meta from), Scummer of Love (a game in which I got myself lynched D1 because shit got personal; why exactly would I want to repeat that type of play?), and Balto (a game I WASN'T EVEN IN).

That's some epic fail, brah.

As Neil Patrick Harris would say... Your basic Arachnid warrior isn't too smart, but you can blow off a limb...

As for the rest of your case, you claim that I've had static reads for the entire game and then berate me for switching onto Paschendale...nice contradiction. If my reads have been so static all game, then why am I voting EPM now? How did morph move from being a town read to a scum read? Hell, I'm not even sure Generic is scum anymore...he's certainly not at the top of my list right now.

And if you think I don't have a case on EPM simply because I didn't compile it all into one post, you're fucking blind. Hell, I had a case on Porkens far before I did that, too. My "compiled" case was just a reiteration of all the things I'd already said. I don't do that very often, but you dumbshits pissed me off because you weren't getting it.

Voting EPM isn't a compromise lynch. I'm voting him because I'm now equally confident in his scumminess as I am Porkens'. What made you think it would be for any other reason, seriously?

Oh good, I didn't miss anything important while I was gone yesterday. I'm losing interest in the Spy wagon. He's not really acting all that scummy and the night result alone really shouldn't be sufficient. Everyone on it seems complacent and I feel similarly and I don't think that's a sign of a good wagon. EMP's detractors, meanwhile, are full of passion. That's a good indicator to me at the moment, but then I looked him over. I think he's right about the general consensus against Porkens. Why aren't there more votes there? Most of his posts are weak, and there are so few of them. A lot of his talk is about PRs, and sure he gives lists, but he doesn't back most of his reads up with any thoroughness. I find myself agreeing with EPM a lot more than agreeing with his detractors.

VOTE: Porkens

This is fucking rich as hell. You're agreeing with EPM but you think I'm scummy? You do realize that EPM copied all of his points against Porkens from me, right? That means you're agreeing with the case made on Porkens by someone you also think is scum. Why won't you just admit that? Why hide behind this facade of sheeping EPM?

T-Bone one was a better case, though he doesn't feel particularly scummy to me. MoS one was nitpicky and weak, and I lean scummier on MoS.

I feel the strongest bits I have against MoS are his weird Porkens interactions (an important point because you're voting Porkens right now), and meta of him putting on a personality and showing a hell of a lot of confidence but no game solving early on (while his town game is usually a bit of confidence --> lots of game solving --> lots of confidence). If ffery and cabd look into Scummer of Love Invitational and Balto Invitational (I think?), they might see what I'm talking about. Hint, hint.

In case you haven't been paying attention, we're still basically in Day 1 in terms of useful information with which to do any "game solving". Come back and bitch at me once we have more to work with. You know as well as I do that there aren't any useful conclusions we can make about the game yet (other than that you and morph are fucking retarded).

Nacho, one of the things that worries me about deas is how ready he is to move his vote, though it seems like he always has someone scummier he'd rather vote.

I remember in the Dr Who game thinking that deas seemed to often take a good while to percolate on his votes. The lack of will to push his own top reads does remind me a little of Dr Who, though. He repeatedly FoSed me, and was approving anytime someone else FoSed or voted me, but never made any real effort to get me run up, much less lynched.

Would you rather he kept his vote solo on a wagon that isn't gaining any steam, when deadline is in two days? He made it clear that he'd gladly switch back to T-Bone in an instant if the wagon went anywhere.

Compromising a week ago would have been idiotic. Finding the best place for your vote now? That's just business.

[Mastermind of Sin]

This is for all you new people: I only have one rule. Everyone fights. No one quits. You don't do your job, I'll shoot you myself. You get me?

Why are we not auto-lynching Porkens?

No, seriously.

Vote: Porkens

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why are we not auto-lynching Porkens?

Is there a reason why we should be auto-lynching Porkens (as opposed to your standard lynching)?

He's been obvscum for two whole days now...what more do you need? Have you

read

his ISO?

When you come right to it, it is easier to

die

than it is to use your head. I'd like more people in this game to do something other than die.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I am in this position where my role actually supports a lurking disposition so scum can't play around my reads too much.

I didn't block Morph(my other scumread) because I know they wouldn't submit kill with my eye on them.

There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Aj, the most noble fate a man can endure is to place his own mortal body between his loved home and the war's desolation. Which players in this game do you believe are town for having challenged Nachomollie?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why are our three most prolific posters the only ones not voting anyone? That seems really odd right now...When you vote, you are exercising political authority, you're using force. And the three people who have been the most active in this game aren't exercising that authority right now. Why?

(Note: Yes, I know there are people with more posts than DeasVail, but consider that he has ~120 votes in less than half the time that most people have been in this game.)

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why the fuck is everyone voting Pecan over Porkens? Porkens is so obviously the scumbag out of that pair. I mean, just look at the entirety of his behavior surrounding Pecan:

Piece: Yeah.

I dislike pieceofpecanpie’s “do you always play like this?” question. What is that? Why is he calling out T-Bone for making the same votes he wants to make?

I liked Fish’s intro post. Good points on Pecan.

[snip]

Yeah, pecan can be scum.

Note that this comes within 1-2 pages of Porkens getting suspicions noted from the likes of M45tin, Maenara, Parama, Desperado, and Nachomollie.

Pecan is so god damn scummy, jesus.

(In this post he lists Pecan as one of his top three suspects, along with Maenara and PranaDevil)

Deciding between Micc and Pieceofpecanpie is hard, because while PoPP has been more scummy by volume, what little I've seen from the Maneara/Micc slot has simply reeked.

Vote: Pieceofpecanpie

But more evidence is more evidence.

Pieceofpecanpie is still scum, but as needs must...

Unvote

Vote: evilpacman

Hiraki’s lynch, color coded, for your convenience:

Desperado

,

Generic

,

notscience

,

morph the cat*

,

M45t1n

,

Garruk Relentless

,

Formerfish

,

evilpacman18

,

pieceofpecanpie

,

50 Shades of Purple

,

Hiraki

(LYNCH)

[snip]

Piece is

obvscum

to me.

[snip]

Vote: pieceofpecanpie

(He now lists Piece along with EPM, MoS, Micc/Maenara and Paschendale as his top 5 suspects)

@World:

I'm more than happy to lynch Pecan after we run SpyreX up the ladder and see what shakes out.

of course I'm fine with lynching pecan, mos, or any other of the BRIGHT RED SCUMBAGS on my scum list.

Why do I somehow feel that this game, even with all the new people, is going to be so much more of the same.

Once more into the breach. Ho.

Vote: Pecan

There goes pecan, Jesus.

I'm for it.

Vote: Pecan

If reading this isn't enough for you to vote PorkenScum, I honestly don't know what is. The timing of his #354 seems to me like scum trying to capitalize on momentum against Pecan to try and get a mislynch. However, he's obviously not actually worried about scumhunting him, because he's spent a LOT of time proclaiming Pecan as scum and next to zero time actually presenting reasons for Pecan to be scum (probably because he knows it's not true). By the numbers, he's spent 9 posts talking about how Pecan is scum and he'd like to lynch him. He's spent exactly ONE post (#354) presenting anything that could remotely be construed as a reason to think Pecan might be scum.

I mean, seriously, how retarded are you people? Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you wanna live forever?

[Mastermind of Sin]

What the fuck just happened?

I seriously have no idea how to process all of this information...I feel like half the PRs in the game are probably lying right now.

Like, seriously, I don't trust ANY of the claims that have been made. The question "but why would the claim what they did at that time?" is moot, because it doesn't make sense for scum to make any of the claims that have been made so far, but there's no way that all of you are telling the truth.

Can someone please compile a player list with claims so we can try to sort this out?

The most noble fate a man can endure is to place his own mortal body between his loved home and the war's desolation.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS who's your vote on right now?

You seriously have to ask that? Have you paid attention to this game

at all

?

To permit irresponsible authority is to sow disaster; to hold a man responsible for anything he does not control is to behave with blind idiocy.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Plus I never got to gloat because I got the best song

Pretty sure I did. =P

I don't agree with 50s self-appraisal, but I have no fricken clue what T-Bone's claim is about. Balance wise, would you expect to see more or less PR's in a multiball large game? I have no experience of playing in one with multiple scum factions.

Are these all the current claims/info we have?

Garruk

- Roleblocker

Morph

- Multishot Bulletproof

pecan

- 1-Shot Cop

Porkens

- Doc

T-Bone

- Seer

Spyrex

- soft-claim something?

FormerFish

- CC'd Porkens?

Majiffy

- confirmed Watcher

I don't believe Porkens' claim at all. Garruk is looking more and more like a scumfuck as well. Dunno wtf to think about T-Bone's claim...the timing is all wrong for scum to claim, but the whole thing is kinda fucked so...

What worries me the most is that even if a couple of these PR claims are scum, (two at most, probably?), it indicates that the scum team(s) have some serious power on their side. With the ridiculous number of ways to stop kills that have already been claimed, I'm wondering if they have a Strongman (or whatever the kids are calling it these days)...

I haven't seen a multiball game with this few kills ever.

Agreed.

It doesn't make sense for one team to have to dodge a full Seer and another team to have to dodge a one-shot cop. It does make sense for T-Bone to fake a Seer claim when a townie's already ruined his normal cop gambit.

Not so agreed. I could come up with a lot of ways to balance that. For example, the "werewolf" team could have a Godfather-type role that comes up as innocent. Also, the second team might have more people than the werewolf team. There are other reasons I can think of that I won't mention because doing so only helps the scum team(s).

The moral of the story is, don't assume parity in a well-designed multiball setup.

My question is this: why are you so insistent on assuming there IS parity? Even worse, how is it that you couldn't think of any of these quite obvious counterexamples to your assertion that two different types of cops doesn't make sense?

When you come right to it, it is easier to die than it is to use your head. Why are you trying to die, Nachomollie?

People I'd be most inclined to vote

notscience

Wat.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I am the doctor, I protected Desp n1 because he's my bro and was acting town as fuck to just about everyone, last night I protected Garruk, you know the guy who claimed to be a town role blocker.

Porken, you fucked up so badly here and I see why. I saw the few times someone crumbed the fact that a doc in this set up was not likely, and you figured that they were right. Score free safe fakeclaim, and even if there was a chance that there was a doc in the set up you would draw them out with your fake claim. As you sacrifice yourself because you are weak fucking sauce in this game to A. Get a free ride as an uncc'ed doc, or B. Draw me out of hiding to nk.

Does that satisfy everyone for my claim? Porkens, that about sum up your thought process?

Seriously, wtf?

1) We were going to lynch Porkens anyway today...that claim was totally unnecessary.
2) Your logic behind Porkens' thought process doesn't make any sense. If Porkens is scum, he KNOWS his kill didn't go through (on at least one night, possibly both if multiball), so why would he think a doc is unlikely? Hell, for that matter, why would ANYBODY think it's unlikely? Anyone who crumbed that a doc isn't likely is an idiot, as is anyone who believed them.

Seriously...why is everyone in this game derping so hard? Figuring things out for yourself is practically the only freedom anyone really has nowadays. Use that freedom.

P-Edit: I'm just going to assume I'm talking to mollie here, because I know for a fact that Nacho isn't this stupid. Mollie, your statements about the cops were LITERALLY predicated on the assumption of multiple scumteams. Don't play dumb and try to change the discussion.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm starting to think Nachomollie and Porkens are scumbuddies. It would explain a lot about how Nachomollie has been willing to call Porkens scum all game, keeps trying to line up other people as his scumbuddies, but continually ends up pushing mislynches instead.

If it has to be done, a man — a real man — shoots his own dog himself; he doesn't hire a proxy who may bungle it.

I'm done letting you dipshits bungle this game.

P-Edit: WTF SpyreX!? This game...I don't know who I hate most right now: the mods or all of you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

We believe SpyreX.

That makes 2 docs we believe.

Maybe we really are looking at some sort of oddly balanced multiball craziness.

How many more things are we going to blow up today? I mean, seriously, does every fucking person in this game have a bombshell to drop?

A citizen has the courage to make the safety of the human race their personal responsibility.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The only people I remotely trust right now are the ones who haven't yet claimed a PR.

Desp, you're the only unclaimed person in this game who I think is both town and not a total dubmshit. What do you make of this clusterfuck? I'd bet a hell of a lot that the rest of us unclaimed aren't all VTs, because that'd be too damned convenient. We *already* have too many PRs, and that's with ~1/2 the game still unclaimed. So what the fuck is this setup? How many of these PR claims are outright lies vs scum claiming their ability and hoping we'll buy it as town? After all, there are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men. If we have a lot of PRs, it stands to reason that the scum must have their fair share for balance reasons.

I really don't trust Garruk right now, but there's nothing we can do about it today with the T-Bone/Shades mess and the Triple Doc Debacle.

At what point do we start hurting ourselves more by holding information back from the town than revealing it to the scum (and everyone else)?

[Mastermind of Sin]

@MoS

Interesting choice to look outside the pool of claims rather than within it. That's you literally staring at a group of claimed town PRs and - undoubtedly - a number of scum gambits and saying "hmmm, nothing to see here guess I'll cast my net of questions elsewhere". And you choose a player who's been increasingly distant and flaky of late and place your trust in that opinion? None of that makes sense.

So question for you MoS, of everyone who's claimed something thus far, with whom would you place your trust in and why aren't you setting up a dialogue with them based on that feeling? After all, they have a PR and if town they have a much shorter time to converse with you than a VT/unclaimed ninny/flaky scum scum from the shadows.

What part of -

I don't trust none of you fuckers

- didn't you understand?

Also, are you really going to complain about me forcing a player that you claim has been distant and flaky to commit to a position on the prime topics of the day? Are you for real?

That old saw about "to understand all is to forgive all" is a lot of tripe. Some things, the more you understand the more you loathe them. That's how I feel about this game right now.

P-Edit: I'll believe (I guess) that we have multiple protective roles that are not exactly the same. That means you're the lying scumbag, Porkens, not Formerfish. Thanks for helping us further explain why you're scum, though.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Did we ever get clarification about whether the no-result on SpyreX used Pecan's 1-shot ability?

I am willing to entertain the idea that Formerfish stopped the obvkill on SpyreX due to WIFOM fail by scum. After all, the most noble fate a man can endure is to place his own mortal body between his loved home and the war's desolation. However, that's not the only way that a kill could have failed. Keep in mind that both Garruk and SpyreX (and maybe more things that we don't know of) are in play here, so I wouldn't go counting our chickens just yet.

I think we need to resolve this 50 Shades/T-Bone thing today. Desp, would you like to explain why you said you believed BOTH of them yesterday?

We need to randomize a claim order for night actions from Garruk, Pecan, SpyreX, and T-Bone. I don't particularly trust any of them right now more than the others, so I don't know what the best claim order would be.

Lowest goes first, re-roll on ties.

Garruk:

Original Roll String: 1d12

1 12-Sided Dice: (9) = 9

Pecan:

Original Roll String: 1d12

1 12-Sided Dice: (1) = 1

SpyreX:

Original Roll String: 1d12

1 12-Sided Dice: (10) = 10

T-Bone:

Original Roll String: 1d12

1 12-Sided Dice: (7) = 7

[Mastermind of Sin]

Garruk, you're claiming first because nobody trusts you and the dice said so. Stop being a baby and deal with it. We don't have time to indulge your idiocy, the more you delay the more it's going to distract from the T-Bone/Shades thing. I already find myself itching to lynch you for being a scumfuck today, but I'd rather deal with this werewolf thing.

I'm starting to think Nachomollie and Porkens are scumbuddies. It would explain a lot about how Nachomollie has been willing to call Porkens scum all game, keeps trying to line up other people as his scumbuddies, but continually ends up pushing mislynches instead.

If it has to be done, a man — a real man — shoots his own dog himself; he doesn't hire a proxy who may bungle it.

I'm done letting you dipshits bungle this game.

P-Edit: WTF SpyreX!? This game...I don't know who I hate most right now: the mods or all of you.

Oh look, this is magically now impossible! I'm sure dumb shit arguments for it being multiball with 1 kill in three nights are gonna come up full force, but let them come as long as the focus is on T-Bone and I and no one else.

What does you being a likely scumbuddy of Porkens have to do with whether or not it's multiball? Stop talking out of your ass, mollie. After all, we've got one of their Brains now. Pretty soon we'll know how they think.

[Mastermind of Sin]

For every juvenile criminal there are always one or more adult delinquents—people of mature years who either do not know their duty, or who, knowing it, fail. Garruk, you are an adult delinquent. Or scum. Please do something helpful to prove me wrong on both counts.

Hey MoS, do you think that I'm a scumbuddy of Porkens when I have a WEREWOLF GUILTY on me and he flipped MAFIA? This seriously isn't that difficult to figure out.

Touche. That's what I get for posting right after waking up. =P

We need to set the record straight so that there are no false assumptions about the night results, particularly the night 1 results.

1. We are town x-shot bp
2. We don't get notification when a vest is used

Prior to the day 3 claims and seeing how many different (and very plausible) protections as well as our bp might have accounted for the lack of a night 1 kill, we thought that we were pretty likely to have been targeted on night 1. After those claims, not so much. And I am concerned that the possibility of nachomollie being targeted on night 1 has been discounted due to our claim.

You forgot to follow this up with any actual substance. What effect does this information have on your read of the Shades/T-Bone situation?

The existence of a second scumteam has like a <10% probability at this point, but still I'm worried. There are way too many roles that can stop kills in this game. Something still isn't adding up.

Still, lynching T-Bone seems like the right play here. The way nights have played out is completely ridiculous otherwise.

Those voting Shades; what makes you think the multiball scenario is more likely?

[Mastermind of Sin]

We've got one of their Brains now. Pretty soon we'll know how they think. I hope so, anyway, because this game is still not making a lot of sense.

morph the cat [X-shot BP] - Probs town, not sure what to make of the claim-changing though. On one hand their claim is nebulous and adds to the epic kill-stopping power we seem to have as a town, but on the other hand I don't see scum claiming to know the shot was used and then backpedaling on that claim. What would be the goal?
AJ the Epic [Mason] - Both predecessors were really crappy, only town by association with Desp.
Desperado [Mason] - Probs town, mason claim was timed really strangely for either alignment, but I'm not about to start doubting a mason claim unless we suddenly stop being able to find scum.
Paschendale [UNCLAIMED] - Thought he was scum earlier, stopped paying attention to him as I had to focus more and more effort on getting people to see Porkens as scum. Coming back to him now, I don't remember seeing anything to alleviate my read on him. Could totally go for lynching him.
Empking [UNCLAIMED] - I thought AM was town really early on D1, then thought they were scummish, but some of that might have been the flaking. Empking, on the other hand, has done absolutely nothing to instill confidence in him. Unfortunately, that's pretty much par for the course with Empking. I've been bitten more than once by mislynching him for being useless, and he's a favorite target for scum to push. I'm going to have to re-read him, especially in light of him getting so many votes to open the day after virtually no attention up to this point.
Formerfish [Doctor] - Counterclaimed Porkens, and the vibe I've gotten from his play this game jives with how I'd play a protective role (I get the feeling that he and I have similar temperments). Reasonably comfortable reading him as town for now.
Garruk Relentless [Roleblocker] - Claiming timing seemed pretty town, but follow-up play was pretty scummy. Countering T-Bone's claim looks good on the surface, but I'm not discounting the possibility of a bus. If they were partners, it was pretty obvious T-Bone was going down after suiciding a VT, so it'd be easy to set up the block claim to grab some town-points as his scumbuddy goes down in flames. If he's town, I don't know why the scumteam is continuing to let him live, especially after helping take down one of their buddies. IGMEOY
pieceofpecanpie [1-shot Cop] - Timing of claim makes me think town, and it's especially unlikely that he's scum after T-Bone fakeclaimed an investigative role already. Still, I don't like that he hasn't managed to get a result yet. However, if Garruk is a scum-RB (or if the scumteam have someone else as an RB), maybe they're blocking him to prevent the result. That brings up the point about why they haven't broken up the uber-doc combo yet, though.
mykonian [UNCLAIMED] - I keep forgetting he's there. Fake-mastin wasn't particularly impressive or particularly scummy. The completely lack of impression I have on this slot overall is what worries me more than anything else.
Generic [VT] - I don't even fucking know with this guy anymore.
SpyreX [Doctor/Lover] - The events of the last few days had me pretty ready to accept SpyreX was town, until tonight's kill. 50 Shades was pretty clearly not Spy's lover, after they tried to get him lynched early on. So I'm trying to figure out why the scumteam killed them over trying to hunt down the lover. Unless the scum *know* there isn't a lover...
notscience [UNCLAIMED] - Too dumb to be scum.

What are the chances that the scumteam fakeclaimed more than 2 PRs all at once? We already had Porkens fake Doc and T-Bone fake Cop...if we've got another liar out there, here's the order I'd suspect them in:

Garruk
morph
SpyreX
pecan
AJ/Desp
Formerfish

However, I don't think we should necessarily go around lynching more PRs today. Every night we get to sort out that situation helps, yes? So here's what I'm looking at:

Paschendale
Empking
Generic/mykonian
notscience

If we've got 3 scum left (seems likely given player numbers and the amount of town power), here's who I'd look at first:

Paschendale
Garruk/Empking

I haven't had time to read through and do analysis on buddy connections, this is just a PoE list right now on individual merits.

Vote: Paschendale

[Mastermind of Sin]

I missed DeasVail in my earlier list...thought he was already dead for some reason. Anyway, I've already made my thoughts clear on him, I think. His wagon rubbed me the wrong way, and so I'd put him on my probs town list...probably right above notscience.

Desp and Pecan need to put their panties away and stop snapping them at each other. You're big girls now, act like it.

morph the cat [X-shot BP] - Probs town, not sure what to make of the claim-changing though. On one hand their claim is nebulous and adds to the epic kill-stopping power we seem to have as a town, but on the other hand I don't see scum claiming to know the shot was used and then backpedaling on that claim. What would be the goal?

I can explain the town motivated goal of the earlier claim if you're curious.

Please do.

I don't like that some people are just throwing votes around without saying much about them or commenting on the game state. There is an old song which asserts that "the best things in life are free". Not true! Utterly false! This was the tragic fallacy which brought on the decadence and collapse of the democracies of the twentieth century; those noble experiments failed because the people had been led to believe that they could simply vote for whatever they wanted… and get it, without toil, without sweat, without tears. So if you're going to vote, put your back into it! You won't get what you want unless you earn it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

We were hoping to provoke some reactions that would indicate knowledge that we were right about being targeted, or that we were wrong.

History of prior games suggested there was a reasonable chance that we'd have been targeted for NK that early.

"The exact words of the book. But do you understand it? Do you believe it?"

Translation: Ok, I'll accept that. What did you learn from the reactions to your claim?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Spoiler: Breakdown of Paschendale wrt Porkens & T-Bone

ISO 2 - Tries to start a push against me with bad reasoning in an attempt to deflect for his scumbuddy Porkens.

ISO 32 - Backs Porkens' ridiculous move to force SpyreX to hard claim after Garruk's RB claim and the soft claim from Spy.

ISO 46 - After EPM and I build momentum against Porkens, jumps on his wagon while echoing our cases.

ISO 47 - When asked by 50 Shades what Pasch thought of Shades' cases against myself and T-Bone:

T-Bone one was a better case, though he doesn't feel particularly scummy to me. MoS one was nitpicky and weak, and I lean scummier on MoS.

Wut?

ISO 49 - Places his vote back on Porkens after a V/LA

ISO 50 - Likes T-Bone better than DeasVail after their back-and-forth when T-Bone claimed DV was scum.

ISO 52 - Asks T-Bone and Pecan to explain their solo votes on DV and Formerfish, respectively.

ISO 54 - After the massclaim shenanigans, says there is a scum each in the pairs of Porkens/Spy and T-Bone/Pecan. Easy enough to predict if one were their scumbuddies...

There's actually very minimal interaction at all...despite having voted Porkens a few times and seeming relatively certain he was scum, Pasch did very little to present a case against him and actually help the lynch get accomplished. His mentions of T-Bone were mostly in passing and no strong interaction there. I'll have to see how the reverse went...

Spoiler: Porkens & T-Bone wrt Pasch

Note: I did this as a combined ISO of both, so for ease of reading I'll use the actual post numbers so no one gets confused.

T-Bone Post 38 - Agrees with Pasch that nameclaiming is a bad idea.

This is a pretty easy way to create basic engagement with a scumbuddy, actually. Interactions on seemingly important topics that don't actually involve any scumhunting are fairly classic scum strategies.

Porkens Post 71 - Doesn't think Pasch is scummy for challenging NS

Porkens Post 227 - Townreading Pasch

T-Bone Post 254 - Questions votes against Pasch

Porkens Post 354 - Still not seeing Pasch as scum

Porkens Post 528 - Lists Pasch as #4 top scum suspect

WHAT? 200 posts later and with no mention of Pasch in between, and suddenly PorkenScum thinks Pasch is scummy? Note that Pasch had just lost the momentum from his wagon as several people had just switched votes off of him.

T-Bone Post 651 - Asks Generic to explain why people are/were voting Pasch

Porkens Post 1357 - Dislike's a post of Pasch's without explaining why, sticks him at the bottom of his top 5 scum list.

Porkens Post 1892 - Willing to move on to voting Pecan/MoS/Pasch if SpyreX hard claims and it makes sense

Porkens Post 2009 - Votes EPM, would also lynch Pasch/Pecan/MoS

Porkens Post 2277 - Calls Pasch a good place to put a vote (while voting MoS himself, lol...)

So here's what I see. I see two scumbuddies who were "townreading" and strongly defending Pasch while he was under fire and looked like a possible D1 lynch. I think they freaked out that one of the weaker players on their scumteam had attracted so much attention early in the game and moved to try and diffuse his wagon. After all, one can lead a child to knowledge but one cannot make him think. They then lightly distanced from him once the danger had passed and largely ignored him for the rest of the game beyond that.

Combined with Pasch's own mentions of those two above, it paints a pretty scummy picture if you ask me.

When I have time, I'll do the same analysis on Empking and Garruk. However, SUPERBOWL...

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, how often do you see experienced players panic while the weak player gets lynched d1? Some people get lynched. Pasch falls squarely in that category.

Would you attach the fate of your scumteam to that, running the risk of being found out with unnatural interactions, or would you cut the dead weight and try to make the best out of it.

two scum defending pasch sounds like a pretty decent towntell. He's a weak player, scum want to keep him away from a lynch: he's town who's being buddied.

Asking me what I'd do and asking me what I think Porkens/T-Bone would do are two very different questions. I don't really doubt that they didn't think that far ahead...have you seen their play this game?

If you wanted to teach a baby a lesson, would you cut its head off? Of course not. You'd paddle it. There can be circumstances when it's just as foolish to hit an enemy city with an H-bomb as it would be to spank a baby with an axe. Not everyone is like you and I, they don't always cut the dead weight immediately on Day 1. Plus, we have no idea what Pasch's role is, it might've been one worth keeping alive.

Also, if your theory is that they were buddying Pasch, then why would Porkens start distancing from him literally as soon as the heat was off? Pasch then went from townreading Porkens to wanting to lynch him, supposedly. If you're crediting the scumteam with not being dumb enough to link themselves to scumbuddies *and* being smart enough to buddy weak players to keep them alive, then why did Porkens throw away everything he'd supposedly worked for in that context before Day 1 even ended? Heck, why did they make such outlandish (T-Bone) and obviously bad (Porkens) claims?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yo morph

You know what I realize?

Yesterday it sounded like the consensus was (Pasch, Empking, MoS)

Yet wagons can't seem to form on these three

Yea keep telling yourself there was a consensus on me...you're so delusional LOL

You're calling me scum with Pasch and at the same time implying that the inability to build a wagon on Pasch is because scum are killing the wagon...yet I'm the one trying to build the wagon on him in the first place.

Don't worry though, I'm not making fun of you personally; I'm just heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea — a practice I shall always follow.

Bzzt. Try again, kthxbai.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I apologize for derailing things when I'm the subject of discussion, but let's be honest, I'm a terrible wagon.

But on to derailing. I'm moving tomorrow and will be V/LA for a bit. Probably until at least the weekend.

So let's say

V/LA until Sunday

. I'll be back by then, assuming that my internet gets hooked up on time.

Have fun moving.

Obligatory:

I'm from Buenos Aries and I say, KILL 'EM ALL!

[Mastermind of Sin]

I had a lot to say in favor of lynching Porkens, didn't I?

Also, you know, I tend to get mad and condemn wagons on me because they're wrong. You've seen me get mislynched. Ever seen me get lynched as scum? It hasn't happened many times. I can think of two times, and once was because I was found out with night actions, and the other I was hard bussed by a teammate. As you say, I get mislynched a lot. So what about me don't people get that they keep reading me wrong? It's obviously playstyle, not actions. So what about my actions bothers you? I'd be happy to address them when I get back.

...he says while completely disregarding the case that has already been posted against him. Funny how it's supposedly so easy to mislynch Pasch and yet we couldn't get him lynched D1 because he was protected by two flipped scum and it's like pulling teeth to get votes on him today. Yea, that feels a LOT like an easy mislynch...

No relation, but this quote is just cool:

Ah yes, [life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness]... Life? What 'right' to life has a man who is drowning in the Pacific? The ocean will not hearken to his cries. What 'right' to life has a man who must die to save his children? If he chooses to save his own life, does he do so as a matter of 'right'? If two men are starving and cannibalism is the only alternative to death, which man's right is 'unalienable'? And is it 'right'? As to liberty, the heroes who signed the great document pledged themselves to buy liberty with their lives. Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes. Of all the so-called natural human rights that have ever been invented, liberty is least likely to be cheap and is never free of cost. The third 'right'?—the 'pursuit of happiness'? It is indeed unalienable but it is not a right; it is simply a universal condition which tyrants cannot take away nor patriots restore. Cast me into a dungeon, burn me at the stake, crown me king of kings, I can 'pursue happiness' as long as my brain lives—but neither gods nor saints, wise men nor subtle drugs, can ensure that I will catch it.

Something something life, voting, and the pursuit of scum something something something...

P-Edit: Yes with the rope and the lynching already.

[Mastermind of Sin]

This page...I don't even...

Come on you apes, you wanna live forever?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'd vote morph before Pie, too.

Um, but, I'm also thinking Desp and AJ are faking masons.

You think 80% of the scumteam fakeclaimed on d3? And that two of them chose MASONS???

zzzzzzzz

Exactly this. Porkens was already getting crushed, and another scum member went off and fake claimed, one that immediately fell under heavy pressure. Why would we multiply all those issues by adding even MORE fake claims? It's not like overloading fake claims makes for an effective strategy or allows anyone to live.

Aren't you voting for the claimed cop right now?

...

...

...

I expect the best and I give the best. Here's the beer. Here's the entertainment. Now have fun. That's an order.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Aren't you voting for the claimed cop right now?

you can't be serious right now

Are you really so drunk that you don't see the irony in you and AJ arguing that there's NO way the scumteam compounded the fakeclaims of Porkens and T-Bone by adding more fakeclaims into the mix while AJ is simultaneously trying to lynch another player who claimed at the same time?

I was simply heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea — a practice I shall always follow.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Claimed one shot who was supposedly blocked once or twice and then finally investigated a townie player who died that night. Pecan is scum at best, and not useful anymore at worst.

Claiming masons is different from claiming 1-shot cop.

What exactly do you think was Pecan's grand strategy here? Why claim 2 blocks and then an investigation on a person who already died? Why wouldn't he simply say that he used his shot and claim an innocent result on one of the semi-iffy PR claims that he probably wouldn't have been able to mislynch but totally would have been believable to investigate? Why not have claimed his shot was already used up when he made his initial claim? He could have made a relatively safe clear on pretty much anyone who was semi-scummy but unlikely to be a great loss as a potential mislynch target and simultaneously avoided all of this.

We know from T-Bone's role that the scum had Daytalk during the whole mass claim thing. What exactly do you think was their plan to claim Doc/Seer/1-shot Cop all at once? Where does Pecan's claim fit into this so-called scumteam?

I'm really curious, because I don't know the answer to any of these questions. I'm not completely discounting there being another fakeclaimed PR out there right now, but Pecan's would maybe be third or fourth on my list if I went looking for claims that would make sense coming from scum. If there's something here I'm missing to explain what this Pecan-included scumteam was doing, please enlighten me.

I'm doing my part. Are you? Join the Mobile Infantry and save the world. Service guarantees citizenship.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Stop half-assing it

Based on his responses on this page I think that's the only way he knows. He doesn't appear to have a good grasp on anything right now.

I'm trying to figure out if myko is just clueless or if he's actually being willfully ignorant in an attempt to push some sort of agenda. He's definitely more on my radar now than he was before.

...maybe they sucked his brains out?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why is all of this coming out now? Pecan has been pushing for your lynch since before your 2915 in which you definitively state "pecan is not scum." So what's up?

Scum trying to push one of the counterwagons in the hope that it takes pressure off his own lynch, obviously.

Put your hand on that wall, trooper. PUT YOUR HAND ON THAT WALL!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why the fuck is it so hard to get a wagon going on Pasch when there's so much reason to think he's scum and very little reason to think otherwise? Why are so many people voting Empking for reasons that also apply to Pasch, especially when there are meta reasons that indicate this is just Empking's playstyle? I mean, if I didn't know Empking I might think he was scummier than Pasch, but I can't be the only person here who has played with him before. His position on my list is mainly PoE, and honestly myko's play today has moved him into my #2 suspect slot.

I'm really worried that people see Empking's playstyle as an easy target and are using it as a screen to derail the Pasch lynch here. Some things, the more you understand the more you loathe them. Empking's playstyle is one of those things. So can someone please make a case for Empking being scum that doesn't involve anything about lurking or lack of content?

I am equally unimpressed by this push to lynch yet another claimed PR (Pecan) today. While we've been lucky so far in ferreting out bad claims by scum, lynching PR after PR until we eventually hit a town one is not a winning strategy. I'm confused by the fact that pretty much everyone who has responded to my post #2896 has said that they agree with it in large part, and no one has come out in strong opposition of it, yet several people in this game are taking actions that indicate they are at odds with the ideas I espoused in that post. Either these people did not see my post (possible, but unlikely, given that it was rather long), or they are willfully ignoring it to the town's detriment. I challenge those people to actually stop and take time to explain themselves rather than continuing to dig a hole for the town to kill themselves in.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I saw you post that before. Thanks for making it bigger though, easier to see with my old eyes. Spy can post if he wants to, hammer comes at midnight eastern.

Why are you in such a rush to end the day with a week left until deadline? On a weekend, no less, when people are less likely to be around to give their thoughts before the lynch goes through?

To vote is to wield authority; it is the supreme authority from which all other authority derives—such as mine to make your lives miserable once a day. Force if you will!—the franchise is force, naked and raw, the Power of the Rods and the Ax. Whether it is exerted by ten men or by ten billion, political authority is force.

Wield that force wisely, young padawan.

[Mastermind of Sin]

As if it wasn't completely obvious, my song is Sarah Brightman - I Lost My Heart To A Starship Trooper

VT. morph, I assume you two know what I was angling for by now. I'm doing my part.

Can you explain your definition of a playstyle lynch? Because Pasch is pretty much the textbook definition and makes this diatribe feel hollow.

1) How is Pasch any more of a playstyle lynch than Empking?
2) What in all my multitudes of case posting against Pasch makes you think this is just a playstyle lynch? Playstyle alone does not a scum make, which is why I can't for the life of me understand how the Empking wagon beat out the Pasch wagon. Pasch actually has ties and links to deceased scum IN THIS GAME. He's being lynched for his actions IN THIS GAME that indicate he is working from a scum agenda. He's not being lynched solely on the basis of playstyle, unless you're going to argue somehow that Pasch's playstyle is to act in the scum's best interest and subsequently have scummy interactions with scum. I'd love to see that reasoning, truly.

There's the real formerfish. Nice to see you drop the act.

Vendettas, can't hide them.

Come on then, let's see some more.

You're a dumbass.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sorry. I think I'm good now.

Emp is off the table for now. If he survives tonight then we can sort him tomorrow. I feel like scum does not have a role blocker or Spy or myself would be dead by now.

Just look at the lack of NKs. Unless they're not even submitting targets, then they've certainly been trying something.

Another option being that one of Fish/SpyreX is scum, not wanting to kill the other one. Or Empking is scum for the same reason.

I'm Chester See & Ryan Higa - Bromance

This song is the best <3

Unvote
Vote: Mykonian

Empking's alignment will be resolved for us eventually
There isn't enough support for PoPP
I don't want to lynch Pasch

You're wrong about Pasch, but his wagon is literally going nowhere, so fuck it. I'm not so overly convinced that I wouldn't vote for my #2 suspect if there was a shot at a lynch going through on someone who is actually scummy as fuck.

Vote: myko

[Mastermind of Sin]

I did have concerns about garruk, but there were some solid arguments made against me there relating to timing and lack of pressure on them.

It would be ballsy... Not unheard of, but still ballsy.

Garruk being scum is kinda the only way T-Bone's claim makes sense?

Porkens is getting run. T-Bone claims a ridiculous fake guilty to try and take attention away from Porkens--either we lynch his guilty or we lynch him is likely the thought there.

But it fails. We lynch Porkens anyway. T-Bone gets lynched the next day on the back of Garruk's claiming a successful roleblock on them--but why would T-Bone even perform the kill? Surely there's someone with a lower profile.

On the face it looks like T-Bone was just a moron and cost his team both himself and Porkens, but as we can see that was a pretty spectacularly bad scum plan. So was there an unforeseen positive consequence? Conf-towning Garruk?

I actually think Garruk's having claimed d1 makes it even more likely that they are scum. They were not accepted as town because of their claim and couldn't get their "guilty" lynched, and then started lurking for a while. I can see a plan forming N2, when Porkens was looking like a likely lynch candidate, for T-Bone to have a fakeclaim ready to distract from a potential Porkens wagon, with the built in caveat that if it goes bad, they can sacrifice a night kill so that Garruk can claim a guilty on T-Bone.

So best case they give Porkens a stay of execution and get a townie lynched at the price of T-Bone. Worst case, T-Bone and Porkens both die but Garruk comes out conf-town.

Up to now I've just been assuming that the scum were acting suboptimally because the play doesn't make any sense if Garruk is just town who caught scumBone.

This is EXACTLY why I've been worried about Garruk lately.

What point did you just notice, Generic?

It's been mentioned plenty of times that if Garruk is a town-aligned roleblocker than there's more than likely a scum-aligned one out there as well. I talked about it as recently as post 3065.

I think it's actually more likely that Garruk is simply a scum RB than that there are two RBs.

Porkens pushed the hell out of the SpyreX wagon on day 2. He wanted to force a claim at first but later just wanted him to die. This is him pushing SpyreX over DV. The DV wagon had started to crumble by then, but there were a couple dozen Porkens posts prior to this pushing a SpyreX lynch.

My question is whether this makes sense if SpyreX' lover is scum.

Shit, this is a good point. If either of the lovers were scum, what would motivate Porkens to try and out that fact and thus make it really obvious when neither of the lovers died night after night?

[Mastermind of Sin]

have fun people.

Nice scumclaim.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Empking (Because I believe that he and Spyrex are lovers, and cross-faction lovers makes little sense to me. Unless there are 4 scum and it's a ploy to keep us from lynching them.)

This makes no sense. Scum having a lover is a liability, not a benefit. If one of the lovers were scum, I'd expect the rest of the scum team to be numerous or more powerful than if not.

[Mastermind of Sin]

We blocked MoS again. Doubling down or something like that.

Also, you guys got fucking told.

Garruk again with the usual fucking contributions to this game. Why does anyone even give you the benefit of the doubt anymore? It's becoming more and more likely that you're scum.

But, I still don't feel it's time to kill off more PRs, not when there's a *chance* that you might be town *and* do something fucking useful with your role, as ridiculously miniscule as that chance may be.

Vote: Pasch

No major regrets on the myko lynch, except that it should have been Pasch and the difficulty we've had building a Pasch-wagon TWICE now compared to the relative ease with which the myko wagon came to a lynch makes it PRETTY FUCKING OBVIOUS what we should be doing today.

Can we please stop being dumb here? It took me three days to get you fuckers onboard with obvPorkenScum, and it was only after he literally shot himself in the foot that we finally got a lynch to go through. Can we PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE not repeat that same mistake again with Pasch?

[Mastermind of Sin]

It's almost like you're blatantly ignoring the cases that were already posted against you...wonder why. Why the fuck would I waste time regurgitating the case that has already been made, unrefuted, when anyone with half a brain can see it for themselves where it was originally posted?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Another rush vote? The last didn't work out too well.

I have pasch as a good vote option, but I think we need all to check in before we start tossing out these votes.

I'm not rushing shit.

1) Pasch is at L-4. It's not like he's in any danger of getting quicklynched.
2) This is anything BUT a rush. It's not like these votes came out of nowhere, and it's not like multiple cases haven't been posted against him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

It's almost like you're blatantly ignoring the cases that were already posted against you...wonder why. Why the fuck would I waste time regurgitating the case that has already been made, unrefuted, when anyone with half a brain can see it for themselves where it was originally posted?

So no, no case. Just jumping on Pecan's bullshit. You his scumbuddy?

Are you dumb or blind? I'm the one who posted the case on Pasch, not Pecan. Stop fucking bullshitting me and pay the fuck attention, you twat.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Seems like a good place to park a vote for the time being, at least as a sign post for me to pay attention to this slot and figure out where it's been at all this time.

While I don't think we're in danger of a quicklynch (See my previous post), I don't see the point in "parking" a vote unless that person is your top scum suspect. What are you trying to accomplish?

What the shit guys.

How did that end on a speed lynch on mykonian?

#YOLO

(aka myko was being a bitch, acting weird and scummy + the Pasch wagon wasn't going anywhere)

But I do endorse the death of spyrex and empking. And probably better before we hit anything near lylo.

Either you think one of SpyreX/Empking is scum and should be lynched, or you think they are town and should not be lynched. LYLO has nothing to do with it. We should keep people who are likely town alive and lynch people who are likely scum. The only point here to be made is that our LYLO calculations should include the possibility of a double-lover death via NK so that we do not accidentally slip into a loss.

The WRONG play would be to lynch them just because it makes the LYLO math more difficult.

Anyone believe formerfish is scum? He won't be getting a Christmas card from me but he certainly hasn't been playing scummy.
So my question is how do both docs and the lover of a doc survive the night?

I love how people stated openly the WIFOM about Empking surviving the night YESTERDAY and then when he miraculously DOES survive the night, they're like "omg how did that happen!?"...I mean, really? Are you that naive?

I really hate having to be the voice of reason here, but this shit is common sense. There are far scummier people to deal with right now than Empking.

Let's hear who each protected.

Let's not, unless you'd like to explain what you hope to gain from it other than giving scum information about the thought-processes behind two of our most useful roles.

Quotes like that last one are why Generic keeps creeping back into my scumread pile.

Scum->Town:

Paschendale
Garruk Relentless
Generic
Empking/DeasVail (Empking was on his way down, DV is on his way up, can't decide atm)

===I'd be surprised if there were more than one scum (if that) below this line, although I have my paranoia about each of them (except Desp)===

morph the cat
pieceofpecanpie
notscience
SpyreX
Formerfish
Desperado

[Mastermind of Sin]

And Deas' slot is one that can easily be forgotten, wouldn't you say?

So true =P

[Mastermind of Sin]

Generic selectively remembering things that perpetuate his fiction of how events in this game have gone...I wonder why?

It's amusing as hell to watch him dig, though.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Is mod even voting for me?

If you are gonna push my wagon together at least both be voting for me. Why do I have to encourage people to vote for me in this game, you all enjoy trying to make a case out of belittling me yet you fear the vote. Go for it.

It's almost like you think people are not allowed to suspect or make cases against anyone other than the person they're voting. Do you think there is only one scum alive in this game?

I've spent plenty of time making my case against Pasch, it stands for itself. Just because he's lurking and trying to avoid attention doesn't mean I'm going to disengage from the game and not comment on everything else that's happening.

Ok, I'm going to be honest and say I have no idea right now who I want to lynch, but I still think MoS may be scum because his reasons for townreading me is

still

complete crap.

I will try and get a better idea of things when I can, but I could easily see it being something like MoS/Garruk/other.

I'm not townreading you?

Because I don't see how two docs and a supposed lover connected to the doc all survive the night. Simple as that. Hearing who they aimed at clarifies a few things to me.

Do you really not see how this looks like a scum ploy? Let me recap some events for you:

- Formerfish claims doc
- SpyreX claims lover/doc
- SpyreX claims Empking as his lover
- Multiple people say that if Empking is alive the next day, they're going to lynch him
- Miraculously, Empking is not nightkilled
- Generic starts vehemently pushing for the death of Empking

This is like the most obvious WIFOM in the history of WIFOM. It's not nearly the slam dunk that you seem to think it is, and asking the docs to reveal who they protected not only doesn't help the town AT ALL, but it helps the scum have a better chance at avoiding the docs in the future. We don't need that information, and it screws with the scum to have to continually second-guess their protection strategies. So you're going to have to do a lot better than "clarifies a few things to me" before we're going to start helping scum at your behest.

But you will see when I flip. Come one , three more votes I think needed. Mos pussied out initially but hd might feel braver now I have three votes. And formerfish will vote for me don't you fish.

Do you really only need up convince one more person morph, and then ready the back peddle.

Every time someone expresses suspicion of you today, you're implying that they're scum, as if it's unthinkable that anyone could find you scummy. Why? Do you honestly think that SpyreX, morph, and I are all scum together, or are you just lashing out blindly in an attempt to get people to back off?

That game is actually the weakest one I've had. The rest of the team carried he win in the end. All the rest I've end gamed I think.

So, you're saying that you tend to survive well into the game when you're scum, eh? That's not a particularly convincing argument.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why am I the epitome of obvtown? Because I have absolutely 0 scum motivation in anything I have done this game. It's been all town motivation, I've made it BLATANTLY obvious I'm town.

Generic's obviously town as well based on how he sounds which has been hit on by about everyone who isn't losing their minds this game (Except Desp because he thinks I could be scum)

Being a generally useless slot is town-motivated?

Also, Pecan is looking really good in this interaction vs Pasch. Definitely liking him even more as town now.

I so want to play "follow-the-conf-town", because this game is getting frustrated. However, seeing as I'm the only one alive right now who has caught any scum (in all the mess of the T-Bone thing, I'm giving that one to Nachomollie more than anyone else), I'm going to stick to my guns on this. Enough compromise, let's actually lynch the scummiest player here.

(Hint: It's PASCH)

[Mastermind of Sin]

@MoS Not into Deas?

Scum->Town:

Paschendale
Garruk Relentless
Generic
Empking/DeasVail (Empking was on his way down, DV is on his way up, can't decide atm)
===I'd be surprised if there were more than one scum (if that) below this line, although I have my paranoia about each of them (except Desp)===
morph the cat
pieceofpecanpie
notscience
SpyreX
Formerfish
Desperado

At best, he's the fourth scummiest player. Even if I agree that it's not time to lynch another PR yet, he's third. That's not a compromise lynch, when there are two better candidates. Unless he does something scummy (which could very well include continuing to avoid doing anything of note in this game like it's the plague) or my top 2 somehow convince me they're more likely as town, I don't see why I would switch at this time.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think that actually is what a compromise lynch is. He is third on your list, and the first two aren't getting the support for a lynch right now.

Compromising would be agreeing to help lynch Generic.

[Mastermind of Sin]

It's the only one I'm willing to entertain at this stage in the game. The case against DeasVail seems to be pretty light compared to what we have against Pasch and Generic. There's not nearly enough there to make me confident about dropping my top suspects today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Is it pretty much common knowledge that there are probably 3 non town members left? So if your top 3 are right and we knock off number 3 then we are still hitting scum. Why are you resistant to voting DV?

DV's not in my top 3. I think Garruk is way scummier than DV, I'm just not pursuing his lynch today because I recognize the need to leave the PR situation alone for now.

Also, Generic seems oddly certain that there are only 2 scum left. Misdirection, maybe?

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS the vote by Spy puts DV at l-1. If you would compromise here I'll proxy my vote to you tomorrow and we can lead the lynch on Pasch.

Actually tempting, but no.

I'm just hoping to hit a lucky night action and carry us on home.

This doesn't jibe at all with you supposedly blocking me two nights in a row for no good reason.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think the wagon on you sucks, DV, but you're not helping.

Disinterest is not a stumtell, though, and I do not think this wagon is on the level.

If you don't think the DV-wagon is town-driven, then who from that wagon do you think is scum?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Fuck it. If DV is just going to give up and not even try to leave the town with information to work with, that's as good as a scum claim. I resisted getting on this wagon in favor of voting scummier people, but I may just have to accept that I was wrong on this one. He's had plenty of chances to step up, and it didn't happen.

Unvote, Vote: DV

[Mastermind of Sin]

I wish we had lynched Pasch.

[Mastermind of Sin]

God, I want to lynch Pasch so bad right now, but with Formerfish's information, I think Garruk has to be the play. Much of this game makes way more sense if I work from the conclusion that Garruk is a scum RB.

Garruk blocking me two nights in a row, voting me the the end of yesterday in the face of several other options that were actually viable lynches, and then turning around to call me town right after Formerfish drops the bomb that he was blocked last night? I hadn't even posted yet today, what the fuck happened to make his read do a complete 180 on me? Sounds to me like scum scrambling to cover their own ass.

Vote: Garruk

Formerfish, I know you offered to help me lynch Pasch today, but I think your own night action info takes precedence. Heck, I wouldn't put it past Pasch to be bussing Garruk now that it looks fairly certain that he's going to flip scum, but we'll deal with that tomorrow. He's not getting off the hook that easy, I promise.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So why was it scummy for me to ask fish and spyrex their night targets the day before and yet it's perfectly alright for spyrex to ask it?

Mos can answer that one.


Spyrex, how about you drclare your night actions too?

God you're such a fucking crybaby. Asking that question is like asking why it's scummy to ask for mass claim on Day 2 but not on Day 8. Timing is everything.

It's obvious...yesterday you were fishing for information about the power roles, which helps the scum predict their night choices. Today, we're dealing with a situation where scum

already

managed to fuck with the PRs last night, and we need as much information as possible to sort things out, because we're at the point where we need to start looking at PRs as viable lynch targets again.

[Mastermind of Sin]

because it appears the question is being asked WHY DIDNT THE LOVERS GET TARGETED?

That's not the question at all. Regardless of whether the lovers are town or scum, they're not going to get nightkilled.

If they're both town:

- Scum can afford to leave them alive until LYLO and then kill them off. The race is whether we can lynch another scum before we run out of time. Killing the lovers early doesn't accelerate our clock at all, and it distracts us from finding scum by having to deal with the speculation about whether they're scum every single fucking day since they claimed.

If either of them is scum:

- Then they're scum, obviously, and didn't get targeted.

As such, there are only 3 reasons the lovers will die:

1) We decide one of them is scum and lynch them.
2) We can't find scum and get to LYLO and scum kills them to end the game
3) Scum run out of obvtown targets to nightkill and choose to kill the lovers over killing players that they see as potential lynch targets

Quite obviously, none of those 3 conditions have been fulfilled yet, and thus the lovers are still alive. So why, exactly, are you acting like it's such a mystery?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, SpyreX has town points in his favor, and that's why he was given the benefit of the doubt when he asked for action claims (I personally would have liked to get more info from SpyreX before the claims came out, but that cat's out of the bag so w/e). He's claimed that he has an idea and is working it out, and if he doesn't follow through, that's going to look very bad on him. That would be a terrible ploy for scum to pull just to get that information out in the open.

You, on the other hand, have been scummy off and on all game, and when asked REPEATEDLY how you thought revealing the docs' night actions could help, you were unable to give a single reason that would benefit the town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wait, you're claiming that the CONFIRMED TOWN MASONS were killed to somehow set you up for a lynch? LOLOLOLOLOLOL

[Mastermind of Sin]

And you still say how scummy I am yet I still see no vote for me. You instead follow the crowd. No independent thought of your own.

Pay the fuck attention. You're my #3 suspect behind Garruk and Pasch right now, and since there are likely 2-3 scum left alive at this point, why would it make ANY sense for me to vote you over either of them? If you seriously think I'm "following the crowd", you literally have not paid attention to this game AT ALL.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hell, even if I did do that, I'd claim something more definitive than a fucking roleblock! Come fucking on.

Wait, weren't you the one who was SOOOOO fucking convinced on Day 2 that he'd solved the game by being a roleblocker on a night when there were no kills?

If you think morph is town, why role block him last night?

This. It's becoming more and more obvious that Garruk is full of shit.

3.) 50 got hit and got protected by me - this would require Garruk-scum OR (and if this actually happened I can't help but laugh) Garruk-town RB got RB'd by scum RB and my protect went through. @Pie - did you get a blocked message? The only reason I come back to this AT all is that niggling Majiffy D2 start with 50 - if he watched 50 (likely) and saw me he may have been trying to get out "did you get fucked with with your PR"?

Wouldn't Majiffy have just called bullshit on Garruk's claim, then? Or do you think he didn't want to risk his claim that early? Did Majiffy protect you at all after Garruk's claim?

So, the million dollar question: is Empking town. I..don't know. The play isn't good and I absolutely dislike that vote on GR. However, town-Empking explains leaving the lovers alive as well because, frankly, its a easy sell. Also, the flipside of Empking-town is: why is this brought to a head today by scum instead of the power play at lylo and bet your ass it is:

SpyreX (3) - Garruk Relentless, morph the cat, Generic
Garruk Relentless (3) - notscience, Paschendale, Mastermind of Sin
Paschendale (2) - Empking, Formerfish

You don't ride the fine line of leaving a doc alive to give up before the race is done unless its a partner on the line. Which, based on how today started is gigantic fingers at pasch and garruk having a scum there. This is super especially true if Garruk is a scum RB (which is doubtful) because then you're forced to try to kill lovers at night and one fuckup is game (with a 66% chance to fuck up). The pasch-scum scenario isn't as strong UNLESS he's the scum RB because then whooo nelly its a horde of problems moving forward.

I'm really worried by the fact that 3 people I don't trust all that much (morph far more than the others, but I'm paranoid about the BP claim) are the ones voting SpyreX...that really lends credence to your theory that scum are forcing the lover issue to a head to save a scumlynch from happening today.

So now we have to get to the nitty gritty:

2. morph the cat (Cabd + Fferyllt hydra) - Town. The only paranoia is the fact we're now in a situation where they can't be lynched and they've said so - but, unless empking is scum there is ZERO reason for them to claim the shot and kill the wagoneers on me.
4. Mastermind of Sin - Town. Unrelenting on Porkens and bringing him back to the forefront and making sense is town.
8. Paschendale - Likely Scum. The more I look the more I dislike the timing of the switches and come at me bro is always a huge red flag.
9. Empking - Fuck. Who knows gabby jay. This read is pretty much the single most important thing to figure out. The only definite is Empking is NOT scum with Garruk.
10. Formerfish - Town. Tooown. In fact I'll put hard money on regardless of what happens today you're probably sleeping with the fishes tonight.
12. Garruk Relentless (Natirasha + MafiaSSK hybrid) - God in heaven I wish I knew. If scum, NOT the scum RB.
13. pieceofpecanpie - With Fish's RB claim AND another 1x I feel a lot better about this slot. Town.
17. Generic - Townhahahaha just kidding you know the song and dance here. The caveat to scum pushing for this today is if Generic is scum and lynched before me then the hopes of lovers-gate get bashed against the wall. Considering how much brotection he's had a good chance for scum RB.
20. notscience - If generic is scum, this goes waay up in the chances land. So, with whats left AND DV not being scum, I'm not stoked. I also don't like the whatevs in regards to the wagons today.

It comes down to:
Empking needs to be dealt with today. If Empking is town, this is literally the last chance to lynch there and not lose.

I've been trying to think about it as a function of balance and double-doc/lover scum kind of makes sense. However, with scum-rb, rolecop and encryptor and watcher/1 shot cop putting the town power heavy protective makes more sense to me. It looks like in the setup-pen this was almost assumed scum are losing NK's and town-town lover is there to make up for it.

This is pretty much where I stand right now, except I'm a bit more paranoid about morph. I really, *really* want to lynch Pasch, but I don't see how we get out of today without lynching one of Garruk/Empking, and I'm increasingly reluctant to consider taking the lover lynch-bait.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If this goes to deadline and we're stalled at lovers v me, can we just take a third option on this dude?

God yes

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh please, can we lynch Pasch? Please please please?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Garruk is at L-1. Do it for great justice!

[Mastermind of Sin]

No I suppose it doesn't need to be exclusive. I just find it odd that no one gives a shit that our "town" role blocker picked such a shitty target last night.

I give a shit. It stinks like hell. Why didn't you give a shit when I pointed out that GR claimed to block me the last two nights in a row, voted me most of the day yesterday, and then called me town before I even posted today? =P Answer that question for yourself, and you'll probably have the answer to your own question as well.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wut.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP:

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ok, initial thoughts:

morph the cat - Still paranoid about them, but I don't think they're our best bet for catching scum today.
Paschendale - This slot has needed to die for SOOOO long. He's such an obviously cheeky scumfuck, I don't know how people keep agreeing that he's scum and yet he's not lynched yet.
Empking - Maybe my meta on him let him slide a bit too far down my suspect list. Either way, we need to make a final decision on the lovers TODAY.
pieceofpecanpie - The most protown player left in the game (yea, PaschenScum, keep up the conspiracy theories and see who's buying it), after Formerfish's confirmation of a scum RB his own claims of having been repeatedly blocked earlier in the game make a lot of sense.
Generic - Still scummy, and at this point a good bet even on PoE alone. However, I'm not sure if there is anything tying him to Paschendale, and I'm certainly not making any more compromises away from my top suspect without having a damn good reason.
SpyreX - Night action speculation leaves him as probably town, but it's irrelevant if Empking is scum, because he'd need to die anyway. See above about dealing with this today.
notscience - Thought he was dumb town this whole time, but PoE moves him up the list. I'd say there's about equal chance between morph and notsci being scum at this point. Neither would be a play today, imo.

I think it comes down to us correctly picking scum out of Paschendale, Generic, and the lovers. I wouldn't trust us definitively hitting scum by lynching anyone else today.

...and I will bitchslap the first person who suggests we just lynch the lovers because that's a 2-for-1 chance of hitting scum. Don't be stupid, we can't afford any retarded lynches today.

BBL with more in-depth thoughts.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Night 3 is the crucial night to decipher, I think.

Claimed Actions:

Garruk - Blocked T-Bone
Formerfish - Protected SpyreX
SpyreX - Protected Formerfish
Pecan - Blocked

There are 5 possibilities for the lack of kill:

1) Garruk blocked T-Bone, who was making the kill.

I think SpyreX already covered why this was unlikely, but if you're unsure, look at the remaining playerlist. Someone still alive is scum, and I'm pretty sure ALL of us were less likely to be blocked than T-Bone at that point. It would make no sense for scum to choose him to make the kill, unless you're assuming a lack of skill on the scumteam's part.

2) Formerfish protected SpyreX from being killed.

This scenario pretty much guarantees the lovers are not scum, unless you want to make the argument that Empking tried to off his lover partner and commit suicide just to take out a doc.

3) SpyreX protected Formerfish from being killed.

This scenario is predicated on SpyreX being town, but doesn't necessarily say anything about Empking.

SpyreX, did you tell Empking who you were targeting N3?

Was there any hint that he could have used to divine what choice you were making?

4) morph stopped the kill with their BP vest.

Again, predicated on the assumption they are town. Also dependent on them not having been targeted N1, which is much more plausible. Also, let's not forget that morph had already claimed at this point, which means scum would have been throwing a kill away just to get rid of the BP shot, right after losing momentum with a scum lynch.

5) Scum chose to no-kill for WIFOM reasons.

Conclusion:

I find #1 and #5 to be equally unlikely, as they would be highly suboptimal choices for the scumteam to make.

#4 is almost as unlikely due to the reasons outlined above.

The Pecan block works slightly in favor #4, because if scum knew they were throwing their kill away, that would explain why they blocked the investigative role. It's also possible that they just made a suboptimal play and tried to out-WIFOM the docs while keeping the investigative role useless. Maybe they tried to kill Formerfish, thinking that SpyreX would protect his lover? However, in that case it's less likely that Empking is scum, because I think the proper conclusion there would have been that SpyreX wouldn't bother protecting someone so low-profile when he wasn't even outed yet. Empking is the kind of player that scum like to leave alive, so there wasn't really any risk to the lovers as long as he wasn't outed.

I can't conclude much on that front until SpyreX fills in the blanks I asked for above, though.

Ultimately, I believe the most reasonable explanation is either scenario #2 or #3, which means

SpyreX is almost definitely town

. The real question, though, is what this means about Empking's alignment.

I'd appreciate someone looking this over very closely to make sure I didn't miss something, because proper analysis is very critical at this point. We *have* to conclude whether the lovers are town or scum, and we have to do it today.

More to come tomorrow...I need to dive deep and start doing some relational analysis. We can't just lynch the scummiest player at this point, we have to see if there are any scumbuddies that make sense for them as well.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why didn't they target the lovers?

If there isn't a scum player amongst he lovers, why kill formerfish? The choice of risking formerfish is being protected by spyrex vs a 50:50 on a lover that formerfish isn't targeting (and was unlikely to be protecting any of them given he thought one of them was scum)...

And they aimed for formerfish?

Bullshit. One of the lovers is almost certainly scum.

vote spyrex

Did you forget that we have 3 PRs (two of whom are dead and confirmed town) that all claimed there is a scum RB? Did you already forget why we lynched Garruk yesterday? There's no risk at all to the scum targeting Formerfish. Also, let's pretend we're stupid for a second and assume that the scum DIDN'T simply block SpyreX to assure their kill went through: why is the 50:50 on Formerfish protecting SpyreX or Empking any more risky than the 50:50 on SpyreX protecting Formerfish or Empking? If anything, wouldn't SpyreX have been *more* likely to wifom-protect his lover to keep himself alive than Formerfish would be to take a flier protection out on someone he thought might be scum?

You really need to stop throwing bullshit out there and hoping it sticks. We can all see right through it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't think we can afford to go for . There's no room for error.

Church.

[Mastermind of Sin]

LOL the forum ate your quote, morph.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What does Church mean?

Preaching to the choir. Amen, brotha. Damn right!

...etc.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That said, I *do* think it comes down to at least one of Pasch, Generic, and Empking being scum. I wouldn't feel confident lynching anyone else today. The key though, as you said, is to dig deeper and delve past the surface to see which of them fits most plausibly into a scumteam here.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Please, Generic, enlighten me. Show me where Formerfish was "under suspicion" by anyone other than yourself.

Just because you're scummy doesn't mean that you (if town) would be a better lynch scapegoat than a pair of lovers who lived for several days after claiming. I mean, really, are you shitting me? The fact that you are pushing them so hard is PROOF that leaving them alive was the right play for scum if they are town. Do you not understand how much more uncertainty and WIFOM we've had to deal with as a town with them still alive and how that helps scum? Why do you make the assumption that this situation could only occur if the lovers were scum?

I'm not trying to sell you as anything. I don't have any prejudice toward you, it's not like we've ever had a game together before, as far as I can remember, so stop being a whiny baby and man up to the situation. You're so busy trying to play the martyr and complain about how you're being treated that you haven't stopped to consider the fact that you've fully earned the way people are reacting to you through your own actions in this game alone. You're either an idiot or playing to that role as scum, because I honestly don't see any thought process behind your posts that makes ANY sense unless you are purposefully trying to obfuscate the issues and win the game for scum.

[/rant]

Fuck this shit, seriously. I'll be back to try and do some serious analysis tomorrow, but if I try to stick around this thread any longer tonight and continue dealing with this bullshit, I'm probably going to end up doing something we're all going to regret. Cya tomorrow.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh, for fuck's sake, Generic.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Shit, I'm wondering if BOTH Paschendale and Empking are scum. If I try to think of how Porkens & T-Bone completely fucked up claimgate while having daytalk, it makes me highly doubt that any of the really experienced players were in on that. That makes morph and SpyreX even less likely than they were before, which leaves Pasch, Empking, pecan, Generic, and notscience. Of those 5, 2-3 would be scum.

Pasch, Empking, and...?

I'm not sure what to make of Generic throwing a hissyfit, as I don't really know his meta. I hesitate to go to the assumption that ragequit = town, because I know it's something I've done as scum before. I don't really have the experience with him to make a call on that. That said, looking at the PoE this way makes me suspicious of pecan again, if only because all the other PRs seem to be checking out. Then again, if pecan is scum, what the fuck was up with his and T-Bone's claims? ...and why would pecan-scum volunteer the information that there is a scum RB?

Ugh, this is a mess. I'm becoming more and more confident that lynching Pasch or Empking will net us a scum today, though. It's just a matter of which one is more likely...I think it's probably both, and there isn't even reason for us to keep SpyreX around anymore, since they'll just block him. Maybe Empking is the right play, then?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Then what do you suggest we do, SpyreX? What do you think the play is?

[Mastermind of Sin]

How are you defining "really experienced"?

Actually, I'll admit I don't know how long you two have been around...I think I just assumed from your seeming competence that you were more experienced. However, my experience with you in this game leaves me to conclude that you probably would not have let claimgate go down the way it did if you were involved in scum's daytalk.

[Mastermind of Sin]

LOL @ Paschendale claiming that if he wasn't scummy as fuck, he'd have had a higher chance of being killed than a PR. Self-delusion is a helluva drug. Or...he's scum.

...and yea SpyreX, I'm a little worried about that as well. But you're not interested in helping lynch Empking, which means that if he's scum we basically have no way to lynch him unless there are only two scum left. You're not leaving us with a lot of options. Scum aren't bussing today, which means we need everybody who is town to be on board with the SAME lynch.

Let's also keep in mind that the only thing scum can do today is *act* like they might be willing to lynch their buddies, since they're obviously not going to truly help. It may be that the willingness to consider Pasch as scum is a deliberate play by scum not wanting to tip their hand too soon by trying to save him. Then again, as you said, it may be that we're wrong and scum are hoping we go through with it. It's hard to really divine which it is without any votes on the table to weed out who's actually serious about it. At that point, though, we run the risk of a quicklynch from scum if we're wrong. Welcome to the thrills of potential MYLO, SpyreX. You know all of this already, though, so instead of lamenting it, let's instead try to figure out how we can walk away with a scum lynch today.

More incoming in a bit, going to try to go back through and do some of that analysis I'd planned to do on Sunday.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Spoiler: Sporadic comments on posts I ran across while doing ISOs

Why should we ignore meta arguments in your mind? You call MoS a good vote, and Generic a good vote. Is MoS bussing his partner on day 1?

We shouldn't ignore them. We just shouldn't hyperfocus on them. They're useful to help an argument, but when they're the crux of one, the arguments tend to be wrong. MoS might be bussing Generic. I don't know.

I try to avoid associative tells before anyone has flipped.

I'm not seeing scum from Hiraki. Want to expound on your reasons?

Bolding is mine. Where are you associative tells now, Pasch? Surely there have been enough flips for you to start coming to some conclusions, yet you seem hell-bent on continuing to call people scum without bothering to build much of a case against them, much less show any sort of associative scum-hunting.

I'm hesitant to join a wagon that no one is actually making an argument in support of.

Majiffy asks for feels. I don't want feels. I want facts, analysis, and conclusions.

Loving the hypocrisy here...facts, analysis, and conclusions have not been the hallmark of your play this game, Pasch.

Pecan, I'm not relying on associative tells. Scum don't always act in concert. It's often a good tactic not to. Hell, it would be a good tactic for you and I to both be scum and be attacking each other. One of us flipping scum would lend a lot of town cred to the other. I'm evaluating each slot individually and not relying on assumption of what scum would or would not do towards one another.

Wait...first you say that you wait for associative tells until after people have flipped, now when Pecan presses you, you're saying you don't use associative tells at all? Also, what's with the insinuation that scum distancing isn't an associative tell?

Note: The following is off-the-cuff commentary, and it only constitutes my thoughts as I go through checking people against my top scumread. I fully intend to dive deeper and compare the top assocations against our flipped scum afterward.

(My commentary in italics for the ISO summaries below)

Spoiler: Pasch interactions with Agent Minnesota/Empking

Post 37 (AM) - Votes Pasch for questioning notscience's RVS vote on Pasch

Interesting to note here is that Pasch basically ignored AM's vote, even though he went out of his way to question an RVS vote on him right before that. In fact, they don't interact for nearly another 400 posts after that AM votes him.

Post 409 (Pasch) - Tells AM that both the Pasch and Maenara wagons are bad.

Post 479 (Pasch) - Asks EPM why he's voting AM, says that he's baffled why people have been suggesting their lynch all game.

No actual reasoning for thinking AM is town, especially puzzling since Pasch has made a point to call people scum for trying to lynch him this game.

Post 2894 (Pasch) - Votes Empking because it "looks right".

Really? I thought you weren't interested in feels, Pasch?

Post 2908 (Empking) - Votes Pasch, no reason, whole rest of the post talks about MoS.

This looks like possible distancing to me.

Post 2915 (Pasch) - Calls Empking a lurker slot, says that maybe a lurker lynch is a good idea after the "inane wagons" the game has had.

Please note that Pasch speculates a lurker lynch because of bad wagons the day after we lynch two scum in a row. Not a point in favor of bussing, but he doesn't look to be trying very hard to get the lynch, either. Null on that front.

Post 3119 (Empking) - Reiterates that he'd like to lynch Pasch, no reasoning.

Post 3327 (Pasch) - Puts Empking in his town bucket after lover claim.

Post 3347 (Empking) - Votes Pasch, no reasoning (new gameday)

Post 3458 (Pasch) - More inclined to believe SpyreX and Empking are town than Formerfish.

Wat.

Post 3472 (Pasch) - Reiterates that he thinks Formerfish's claim is less credible than the lovers'.

Post 3481 (Pasch) - Claims that pecan is trying to discredit him over the Formerfish/lover comments

Post 3545 (Empking) Votes Pasch (new gameday)

Post 3666 (Pasch) Says that Garruk is a "vastly superior lynch to Spy".

Not a direct comment about Empking, but I think taking a stance on the lover lynch counts in this case.

Conclusion: Despite the relative inactivity of Empking's slot throughout this game, there's a surprising number of reasons to think he and Pasch might be linked. I'm definitely more confident in thinking they might both be scum after looking closely at their ISOs.

Spoiler: Pasch - Generic Interactions

Post 88 (Pasch) - Notes that Generic (as well as 5 others) hasn't posted yet.

Post 175 (Pasch) - Disparage's Generic's claim that "fast and loose" experience players are a towntell, saying it's null instead, possibly even a scumtell.

Post 203 (Pasch) - Not a fan of Generic's fatalist attitude and early VT claim.

Posts 217/220 (Generic) Asks PranaDevil why he voted Pasch, barely mentioned him after that, and then switched his vote to Generic and completely changed focus away from Pasch.

Post 225 (Pasch) - Lists Generic among his top 3 suspects along with PranaDevil and MoS.

Post 249 (Generic) - When asked by Desp, says that of the people pushing him, Pasch and Prana are scum.

Post 276 (Generic) - Willing to consider switching his vote from Prana to Pasch, since the "wagon has legs".

Waiting to bus until the wagon already has momentum? Maybe a bit too blatant, though...

Post 279 (Pasch) - Tells Nachomollie that they should be pushing Generic, Prana, or MoS

Post 297 (Pasch) - Votes Prana, says MoS can wait.

I only noted this one because I think it's curious that he only mentioned 2 of his suspects here, even though he pretty consistently listed 3 suspects without even noting a preference among them previously.

Post 525 (Pasch) - Votes Generic, says he doesn't like SpyreX's case but still think he's scum for "being unfocused, having weak reads, and doing a lot of yapping".

Hypocrite, much?

Post 527 (Generic) - Accuses Pasch of opportunistic bandwagoning, quotes notsci, MoS, Prana, and Generic wagons as evidence.

Post 537 (Pasch) - Refutes Generic's weak attack and says he feels even better now about voting him.

Posts 538/539 (Generic) - Continued back-and-forth with Pasch, votes Pasch.

Post 641 (Generic) - Says that Pasch is either a bad mafia player trying to help a teammate or a deluded townie for having voted Generic.

Post 695 (Pasch) - Says Generic is still a good vote, and that notsci seems to be trying to buddy Generic rather than truly defend him.

What? If you think Generic is scum, why would you think notsci was trying to buddy up to him? o.O

Post 978 (Generic) - Calls Pasch a hypocrite for saying Hiraki is a pain in the ass all the time.

I'm amused at the double-hypocrisy here...

Post 997 (Paschendale) - Says MoS might be bussing Generic, but doesn't want to come to any associative conclusions until someone has flipped.

Yea, still not understanding why Pasch has made no attempt to draw associative tells from the flipped scum.

Post 1272/1277 (Generic) - Calls Pasch a hypocrite again, this time for accusing Majiffy of not making a proper case with a vote. Backs it up with quoted evidence of votes on notsci, MoS, Prana, and Generic.

Post 1409 (Generic) -

8. Paschendale - scum. Hypocritical scum. Non analysis scum. Scum.

Post 1434 (Pasch) - Says Generic is just waffling over Garruk's RB claim.

Post 1486 (Generic) - Votes Pasch

Post 1971 (Generic) - Unvotes Pasch

Post 2909 (Generic) - Says that two of Pecan/Pasch/Empking are the remaining scum.

Post 2919 (Generic) - Votes Pasch for "playing the emo tantrum card", calling it a policy lynch.

o.O Wat.

Post 2925 (Pasch) - Claims he's not throwing an emo tantrum, says Generic was misrepping him and sheeping other people onto his wagon.

Post 2931 (Generic) - Unvotes Pasch, says he'll hammer the first of his 3 suspects to get to L-1 (Pecan/Pasch/Empking)

Point in favor of them being scumbuddies here...takes his own vote out of the equation and gives himself a 2/3rds chance of not having to hammer Pasch...also insulates himself from the guilt/responsibility of whatever lynch might happen.

Post 2977 (Generic) - Wonders why two of the top 3 wagons are voting the third wagon...says Pasch is town or being bussed.

Post 3002 (Generic) - Votes Pasch (had been voting myko previously)

Post 3187 (Generic) - Lists Pecan/Empking/Pasch still as his top 3 suspects, leaning Empking or Pasch

Post 3327 (Pasch) - Lists Generic (twice?) in his reads list of people who he's unsure about.

Possible slip? Trying too hard to make sure he put Generic in the right list? May mean nothing...

Post 3540 (Generic) - Says he's down for a Pasch wagon the next game day

Post 3541 (Pasch) - Says he's disappointed in everyone (presumably in part as a response to 3540).

Post 3686 (Generic) - Votes Pasch to "get some closure there"

Post 3737 (Generic) - Says Pasch and MoS are scumbuddies, possibly with Empking

LOL that's rich...apparently I'm trying to bus BOTH of my scumbuddies now!? Am I just trying to win by lynching all of my scumbuddies now?

(Not an actual question to Generic, obviously, but...LOL)

Post 3803 (Pasch) - Agrees with Generic that Formerfish seems like an odd NK, but also disagrees and says that leaving the lovers alive for a double kill to end the game makes sense.

Post 3819 (PA) - Agrees with his previous self that Pasch and MoS might be scum together.

Double LOL!

Conclusion: Actually...I'm not really feeling a connection here. There were a few small tidbits here and there, but you can always find *something* if you dig hard enough. Overall, the interactions here felt genuine, and I'm not all that confident that they could be scum together.

Spoiler: Pasch-notsci Interactions

Post 32 (Pasch) - Votes notsci for rolefishing in RVS stage

Post 33 (notsci) - OMGUS votes Pasch

Post 34 (Pasch) - Asks notsci if his vote is serious or pissy OMGUS

Post 286 (notsci) - Agrees with Nacho's read on Pasch

Post 298 (notsci) - Challenges EPM's assertion that Pasch is town/easy D1 lynch

Post 443 (notsci) - Questions notsci's vote on caled (later AJ)

Post 599 (notsci) - Would consider joining wagons on Pasch/Caled(AJ)/Prana/AM(Empking)

Post 622 (Pasch) - Tells notsci not to rely on a meta case to conclude that Generic is town

Post 647 (notsci) - Calls out Pasch for chainsaw-defending Generic against attacks from MoS

Post 695 (Pasch) - Says NS is buddying but not really trying to defend Generic

Post 696 (notsci) - Defers to Desp's defense of Generic and claims that Pasch wouldn't listen to him anyway

Post 884 (notsci) - Would vote Porkens/Pasch/SpyreX/Pecan/caled(AJ)/T-Bone/Hiraki

Post 986 (notsci) - Thinks scum is Hiraki and one of MoS/Pasch

Post 1188 (notsci) -

We're giving Pasch time to adapt to the setup because of a post he claimed isn't AtE (which kinda was)

I didn't really know how to summarize that.

Post 1462 (notsci) - Leaning scum on Pasch but giving him "time to adjust" at mollie's request

Post 2612 (notsci) -

8. Paschendale- NULL, one of my better picks for scum. Asked for time to get accustomed to the game D1, really hasn't shown up at all in recent times, more has faded into the background. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Nachomollie and morph thoughts on him plox

Post 2616 (notsci) - Most inclined to vote T-Bone/Pasch/notsci/MoS/AJ/Garruk/SpyreX/Micc

Avoided each other for quite some time and then throws Pasch up as a possible suspect without really following up on it. Possible tell here.

Post 2734 (notsci) - Asks morph if we can quicklynch Pasch or Empking the next gameday

Post 2735 (Pasch) - Assumes notsci wants to lynch him for missing one of the doc claims

Post 2736 (notsci) - Denies it and says he already posted his reasons for suspecting Pasch (which he had)

Post 2807 (notsci) - Lists Pasch/MoS/Empking as top 3 suspects

Post 2809 (notsci) - Claims the scumteam is Porkens/MoS/T-Bone/Pasch/Empking

WTF...again with someone thinking Pasch & I are scumbuddies...where is this coming from?

Post 2891 (notsci) - Votes Empking, wants to lynch MoS then Pasch after.

Post 2961 (notsci) - Asks why wagons can't seem to form on Pasch/Empking/MoS

This is getting really old.

Post 3327 (Pasch) - Lists notsci among null reads

Post 3534 (notsci) - Agrees with morph in wishing we had lynched Pasch

Post 3765 (notsci) - Thinks remaining scum are in Empking/SpyreX/Pasch/MoS

Post 3789/3790 (notsci) - Wants to lynch Pasch, says he's only here because mollie saved him D1

Conclusion: Not a lot here indicating much either way. I don't like that Pasch basically ignored notsci in the latter half of the game, even though he's made a point to yell and scream about people calling him scum. Also, I don't get why notsci has a hard-on for me and Pasch as scumbuddies...could be a deflection against his own connection to Pasch? Definitely not anywhere near as likely as Empking, but it's possible, maybe even moreso than Generic.

Fuck, this has been way too much work. I'm going for the abridged versions from here on out, especially since morph/Pecan/SpyreX are farther down my scumlist anyway (and morph has waaaaay too many posts).

Spoiler: Pasch-morph Interaction

Prana votes Pasch early, Pasch takes a strong dislike to Prana and goes after him in return. morph replaces in and lists Pasch among his scumreads, along with Hiraki, EPM, Porkens, and Micc(DV). They don't interact for a long while, but morph seems to still suspect Pasch when questioned about it much later. Pasch responds with AtE by saying he's just not very good at large games and he's an easy D1 lynch and claiming he's not AtE'ing (lol). Moves Pasch down to null list based on Nacho's read.

Later, morph says he'd be really surprised if there was more than two scum max in Porkens/EPM/Pasch/morph/T-Bone/Generic in response to MoS' speculation about the scumteam. Lists Pasch among scumreads much later, along with T-Bone, Empking, Porkens, and DeasVail. Seems amenable to Pasch being scum when asked by notsci if they could quicklynch him or Empking. Leans toward voting Pasch but seems hesitant to pull the trigger, asking Desp why he's townreading him. Doesn't make a decision, but many posts later says they are still leaning toward a Pasch lynch. Then says they're ok with a myko lynch and places him at L-2 without so much as having had a reason to suspect him, as far as I can tell.

Later asks Desp why he changed his townread on Pasch into a scumread. Meanwhile, Pasch seems to be super-townreading morph, the first time that I can tell where he actually said anything much about them since they replaced PranaDevil, who he had thought was super scummy. Then, after myko gets lynched, morph laments and says they wish we'd lynch Pasch, who they had plenty of chances to vote when he had 5+ votes on him. Later says they kinda want to lynch Pasch and have "wanted Pasch lynched since forever".

Conclusion: Prana and Pasch tussled a bit early on, both suspecting each other. morph also read Pasch as scum when they replaced in and then pulled back on it based on Nacho's insistence. Overall, their interaction was VERY minimal after morph replaced in, until much later in the game, when the Pasch wagon came to a head again. That's where things get fishy. They seem to want to lynch Pasch, but they are VERY reluctant to pull the trigger on a vote. They hem and haw, looking for any reason to be convinced to change their minds, finally putting a vote on the myko wagon without actually saying why they thought myko was scum. They did a lot of posturing about semi-kinda-scumreading Pasch and never actually did anything about it, jumping at any opportunity to find an excuse not to lynch Pasch (Nacho's townread & attack on them, then later Desp's townread...).

At the risk of alienating possibly-town morph, I have to say that this doesn't look good at all. They have been really bad about making decisions this game, and in retrospect they've done a lot of deferring their reads to those of other players such as Nacho and Desp. Maybe this is my paranoia about the BP claim coming back full circle, but fuck if I don't think we might have a Pasch/Empking/morph scumteam...I'd say it's more likely than Generic or notsci being a third partner. We might only be looking at two scum left, but might as well assume the worst because it seems to make sense at this point. I still have yet to look at the associations with pecan and SpyreX, but I'd be surprised if I find anything indicating either of them are scum at this point.

Then again, I would have not expected to see this kind of heavy association between morph and Pasch... Either way, we must trudge on and see what we find.

Spoiler: Pasch-pecan Interactions

Pecan thinks the D1 Pasch wagon seems suspect, going so far as to vote people on the wagon and listing it as one of his reasons. He later votes Pasch without justification, subsequently claiming that it was a deadline lynch vote. Pecan and Pasch argue over a few things later (after Pecan was already voting someone else) without calling each other scummy.

Pasch & Pecan both consider lynching DV if it's contingent on lynching 50 Shades after DV flips town. Pasch doesn't ever seem to doubt pecan's claim. Pecan wants to lynch Pasch after he jumps on the Empking wagon for no reason, then follows up with a vote. He lists Pasch and Empking at the top of his lynch list. Pasch is still townreading Pecan. Then Pasch and Pecan start tussling, with Pecan throwing a lot of attacks at Pasch and Pasch lashing out at him and saying that he should know better than to think Pasch is scum. Pecan pushes hard for Pasch's lynch, but then switches to be the L-1 vote on myko when the Pasch-wagon loses steam. Pasch now has Pecan at the top of his scumlist with Garruk. They continue throwing attacks at each other for much the rest of the game so far.

Conclusion: I could actually see this as a committed distancing, perhaps, but it could also just be Pasch lashing out and OMGUSing to try and save his ass. The fact that they both townread each other and then Pecan flipped his read for a fairly poor reason and Pasch OMGUS'd doesn't really sit well with me, though. All things considered, probably a higher chance of Pecan-buddy than notsci, but not as much there as with Empking or morph. There's definitely more potential here than I thought I'd see...maybe I need to revisit my Pecan read?

Not even sure why I'm considering SpyreX as scum at this point, but I might as well be complete.

Spoiler: Pasch-SpyreX Interactions

SpyreX likes Pasch in RVS stage, but his first set of real reads lists Pasch as a top suspect alongside EPM, Generic, and Maenara (though the lowest in that group). They both vote Generic but can't agree on why he's scummy. Pasch votes SpyreX after Garruk's RB claim. Pasch then attacks Formerfish for not wanting Spy to fullclaim but also agrees with Majiffy's reasons not to claim. He follows that by saying he still doesn't believe Spy is town at all. After the DV wagon, Pasch keeps trying to lynch Spy.

After claimgate, Pasch expects one scum in each pair of Porkens/Spy and T-Bone/Pecan, concluding that Porkens & T-Bone are the most likely. (whaddaya know, he called it?) Spy now wants to lynch Pasch for following along with the RB claim and wagoning him.

Moving later into the game, Spy now has a solid scumread on Pasch and Pasch thinks Spy is town. Pasch even believes the lovers are more credible as town than Formerfish.

You don't ride the fine line of leaving a doc alive to give up before the race is done unless its a partner on the line. Which, based on how today started is gigantic fingers at pasch and garruk having a scum there. This is super especially true if Garruk is a scum RB (which is doubtful) because then you're forced to try to kill lovers at night and one fuckup is game (with a 66% chance to fuck up). The pasch-scum scenario isn't as strong UNLESS he's the scum RB because then whooo nelly its a horde of problems moving forward.

8. Paschendale - Likely Scum. The more I look the more I dislike the timing of the switches and come at me bro is always a huge red flag.

Spy now feels that it might be Pasch/Pecan/Empking after Generic's ragequit.

Conclusion: I'm not seeing much here that would be buddying...especially because SpyreX's reactions to Pasch seem genuine. The only weirdness is around Garruk's claim and Pasch not seeming to make up his mind whether he wanted to kill Spy or protect him. That, combined with Pasch later becoming very sure the lovers were more town that Formerfish...it would explain a lot of Pasch and Empking were buddies. Pasch's indecision would come from knowing Spy was a mislynch but that it would kill Empking as well, which is probably why he didn't push it very hard and then tried to drum up suspicion against the OTHER doc claim instead.

I'd really like SpyreX to explain his Pasch-scum RB scenario, now that we know it wasn't Garruk.

Super Mega Conclusion:

I'm strongly thinking Pasch/Empking as scumbuddies, with one of morph/Pecan as the likely third, a small chance of it being notscience, and relatively no chance that it's SpyreX.

Spy, I'd really like your thoughts on the morph & Pecan connections especially, to get another perspective. I need to look at how Empking/morph/Pecan all compare to Porkens & T-Bone, but I've already spent 4 hours straight on writing this post, so it'll have to come tomorrow. Wow, that took way too long...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh, and Generic fits somewhere between notsci and SpyreX on the scale of possible Pasch-buddies.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ok thanks...staring at posts too long made me misread the context on that one.

In other news, I *really* want morph to explain their behavior around Pasch this game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The weird thing is that Pecan & morph's claims implicitly lend credence to each other, being the only 1-shot PRs claimed. I don't think they're both scum, but only one of them being scum kinda shoots that in the foot. I don't really know what to make of that. Maybe they're both town, but then who's the third scum, if there is one? notsci?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Let's take a look at how our most likely Pasch-buddies stack up the associative tells with the flipped scum.

Spoiler: Pasch-Porkens-T-Bone

See Post 2955

Conclusion: You already know. He's a cheeky scumfuck.

Spoiler: Agent Minnesota/Empking-Porkens-T-Bone

AM calls Generic, Pecan, and T-Bone town early on. Porkens lists Prana, Generic, and AM as his top 3 suspects, in that order. 300 or so posts later, AM had moved down to his null list without any further interaction. After Empking replaces in, he discusses with Porkens the merits of lynching one or both of Porkens/MoS until scum is found. Later, Empking lists his reads as Porkens-scum, MoS-town, and SpyreX-town, then votes Porkens. After claimgate, Empking says he'll wait for a VC before voting T-Bone. The lynch goes through without Empking placing his vote.

Conclusion: T-Bone doesn't seem to have so much as mentioned either Empking or his predecessor even once in this game. Porkens had very minimal interaction, expressing minor suspicion early on and the moving him into the middle of his reads. Agent Minnesota didn't mention Porkens at all and called T-Bone town in the only time he brought him up. Empking jumped on the Porkens wagon after Porkens was obvscum and never actually voted T-Bone despite expressing willingness to do so. Overall, I'd have no trouble believing they're scumbuddies based on his association to both flipped scum and to Pasch.

I'm pretty solidly sold on those 4 as the core scumteam, now. I gave Empking benefit of the doubt because I've played with him before and so I know this is his playstyle, but the facts point to him being scum irrespective of his lurking. The main question is whether there's a 5th scumbuddy (likely) and who it is...which is where things become trickier. There are no obvious candidates, though I come back to the thought that we have another fake PR claim out there after the associative analysis I did yesterday, since morph and Pecan seemed more likely to be tied to Pasch than anyone else in the game.

Spoiler: Prana/morph-Porkens-T-Bone

Early on, Porkens lists Prana as his top suspect, followed by Generic and Agent Minnesota, then votes him. T-Bone says he understands why people are voting for Garruk and Prana, but also attacks Porkens in the same post for not explaining his vote on Prana. Porkens continues to say he can't see why people are townreading Prana, but has never provided reasoning of his own. He later lists Prana as his #3 suspect after pecan and Maenara while still voting him. He now claims it's because Prana was lurking under pressure, and he can't let that go even though there are scummier players.

morph's first reads list has T-Bone in his null list and Porkens as scum. Porkens unvotes with morph replacing in, saying that his actions seem much more believably town than his predecessor's. morph breaks down why he finds several of Porkens' posts scummy. morph discusses voting/case-making playstyles briefly in response to T-Bone. morph says (near the end of D1) they'd be surprised if scum T-Bone goes after hard targets like Nacho/Desp when there are easier people to push and says that his play may be based on vintage site meta. They also promise to meta Porkens and Pecan during the Night phase.

morph says that the thing bothering them most about Porkens was disparity between his reads and theirs. Their next updated reads list puts both Porkens & T-Bone in the Null list. After Garruk's claim, Porkens questions why morph is defending SpyreX so strongly, and puts them together in the "tinfoilhat" category of his reads list. morph explains why it's plenty feasible for SpyreX to be town. They also provide evidence of a town RB in a past quadz game when Porkens tries to push that route instead.

T-Bone interacts with morph for the first time by asking them what their Majiffy read is and questioning it after they say they're sheeping mollie's townread. T-Bone then asks them to give a read on 50 Shades, which they give as town as well. morph questions T-Bone's stance on meta, trying to see what makes his play different in this game, and they go back and forth on that. They further discuss why T-Bone has been reaching out to morph to get their reads when he seems to disagree with them on major reads.

After morph lays town their first claim, their reads list has both T-Bone and Porkens in the scum pile. After T-Bone's claim, morph asks T-Bone if his results are "wolf"/"not wolf". (

possible coaching? No, they have daytalk...and T-Bone made the worse decision in answering that question after morph gave him an out

)

morph claims willingness to hammer Porkens, gets beaten to the punch. They also put T-Bone at L-2.

Conclusion: I actually don't see a lot tying them to the scum. I don't particularly like that Porkens was scumreading Prana and then used morph's replacement as an excuse to switch to a new vote, but the main sticking point to me is that morph asks T-Bone about the wording of his investigation results and T-Bone gives a worse answer than the one morph offered him, which indicates strongly that morph was not involved in behind-the-scenes scum Daytalk. So that leaves Pecan and notsci as the next best options for a 5th buddy.

Spoiler: Pecan-Porkens-T-Bone

Porkens goes after Pecan early, claiming he chainsaw'd Garruk and then backpedal'd...but then votes Garruk himself. Pecan defends himself by saying Porkens was overstating what happened. Pecan questions Fake-mastin's flip-flopping read on Porkens. Later concludes that he's leaning town on Porkens because he seems too genuine in how he's posting. Questions why Nachomollie is voting Porkens as well. Pecan starts getting bad feelings about how T-Bone is playing with his opportunistic voting plays, and they go back and forth on this a bit.

Porkens comes out of the Pecan/T-Bone exchange thinking Pecan is likely scum, and Pecan thinks Porkens is just wrongtown. Porkens lists Pecan as his #2 suspect after Maenara and above Prana(morph), saying he's "so god damn scummy". Pecan feels like some of Porkens more recent posts have felt forced, but he's still not willing to give up on his null/town read. Porkens switches his vote to Pecan after morph replaces in (he'd been voting morph's predecessor).

Pecan and T-Bone tussle over whether to discuss the No Kill or Hiraki's flip or both, Pecan pointing out how T-Bone seems inconsistent in what he wants to do. Porkens calls Pecan obvscum and continues pushing for his lynch. When Pecan's speedwagon comes up, T-Bone questions why it formed so easily when other wagons have been difficult in this game.

After I give a big case on Porkens over Pecan in 2332, Pecan agrees with it and votes Porkens, saying that his latest posting has been much worse than early game. Porkens calls MoS and Pecan scum together. The next day, pecan votes T-Bone for having a bad flavor text claim for his results.

Conclusion: I'm not seeing a lot here, either. Pecan's general dismissal of Porkens doesn't seem like a scumbuddy interaction, but I don't feel nearly as strongly about that as I do about morph's flavor text comment to T-Bone. I'd still say he's a possible buddy, there's just not much definitively to support it in the way of associative tells to the flipped scum.

Spoiler: notscience-Porkens-T-Bone

Porkens and notsci discuss the merits of songs being tied to game mechanics/roles and a possible songclaim. Porkens later declares a townread on notsci. Porkens' next big reads list has notsci as null and asks for a vigkill on him. Much later, notsci says he'd potentially vote for any of Porkens/Pasch/SpyreX/Pecan/caled/T-Bone/Hiraki. notsci's next reads list wants to lynch Hiraki or EPM, no mention of Porkens/T-Bone at all. Porkens continues keeping notsci in his vigbucket with Generic. notsci speculates that the scumteam is Porkens/EPM/SpyreX and one of MoS or MAYBE T-Bone. notsci questions Generic's scumread on T-Bone and his townread on Porkens.

ALT GIRL.

notsci asks Jiffy, Nachomollie, and Generic if we can wagon Porkens. Does not actually vote him.

During claimgate, notsci says that Porkens' claim makes the existence of a scum RB/Ninja very likely and explains why when Porkens asks him. When Garruk votes Porkens, notsci tells him not to and that Porkens is probably town. Continues to defend Porkens after Formerfish's claim. Lists him as "NULLTOWN" in his reads list, and T-Bone as null as well (has nobody listed as scum). notsci would be willing to vote T-Bone/Pasch/notsci/MoS/AJ/Garruk/SpyreX/Micc. notsci speculates claimgate is lylo based on T-Bone trying to save Porkens. notsci eventually votes Porkens near the end of the day.

notsci speculates that scumteam is Porkens/MoS/T-Bone/Pasch/Empking and votes T-Bone.

Conclusion: I don't really like how notsci would occasionally talk about lynching someone, but every time he gave a solid reads list, he wouldn't have anybody listed above "NULL". However, I'm not sure that two scum would have put their necks out so far to defend Porkens, especially after the CC from Formerfish.

[Mastermind of Sin]

TLDR:

Rankings on individual scumminess -

Pasch
Generic/PA
Empking
notsci
morph
Pecan
SpyreX

Rankings on ties to Pasch -

Empking
morph
Pecan
notsci
Generic
SpyreX

Rankings on ties to flipped scum -

Pasch
Empking
Pecan
notsci
morph

Didn't feel like going through the motions on Generic and SpyreX with the last bit, although it'd be useful if someone did a close re-read on Generic against the flipped scum. I've already done enough, and it's not like anybody else besides SpyreX is contributing anything useful right now. Somebody else can do the legwork for once.

Conclusion:

Pretty damn sure it's Pasch and Empking. 5th scumbuddy is a tossup, probably one of Pecan, notsci, morph, in that order. Generic/PA is still scummy, but he doesn't fit into a scumteam that I can see, so I'm willing to accept that I might have been wrong about him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, you make a point about DV coming in and having no advocates to help against the scum reads. Who do you see as Paschendale's advocates?

Pasch actually got saved hard by Nachomollie when he was wagoned Day 1, so I don't necessarily think his scumbuddies felt the need to advocate on his behalf. Since then, it's been incredibly hard to build a wagon against him; people are not so much defending him as seemingly unwilling to take action against him, which is why morph pinged my radar so hard when I looked closely at their interactions with each other. The difference with DV is that his wagon was incredibly easy to build *and* he didn't have ANY advocates in his favor. The situation with Pasch has been different, because building momentum against him has been very difficult.

If anything, I'd compare it to Porkens, not DV. The Porkens situation actually bears a striking resemblance; most people generally agreed that Porkens was scummy, but it took me three whole days of constantly pushing people to vote for him, give reads on him, etc, before we got any sort of momentum on his lynch. In the meantime we compromise-lynched both Hiraki and EPM, who were town. The same thing has happened here...Pasch has been a top suspect ever since the Porkens & T-Bone lynches, but inability to create momentum on his wagon led to compromise lynches on mykonian and DeasVail. Pasch probably would have been lynched yesterday if not for Formerfish revealing evidence that we thought implicated Garruk as scum.

The patterns are almost exactly the same, and I'm honestly shocked that Pasch has not been lynched yet in this game. If I wasn't waiting for you to finish catching up and present your final thoughts, I'd already be voting him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The only thing I want you to address now that you're fully caught up is who you think the scumteam is. If you disagree strongly with my thoughts on our remaining scum, I'd like to know why.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Pasch

[Mastermind of Sin]

Still need this reminder?

Nope, its the everyone in seeming agreement on Pasch problem.

So as discussed above, do you think that him not being lynched for days on end is a matter of scum sneakily saving him for an endgame mislynch or him being scum whose teammates have stopped trying to rescue him? Because for me the problem with the latter theory is that Empking can hardly be said to have exerted much influence on the game state, and popp was actually pushing for Paschendale at various points. Which tanks my scum team theory.

I think it's neither. There isn't a defensible position for Pasch being town, so there has been nothing that his scumbuddies could overtly latch onto to call him town. Instead, I think scum's strategy has been to try and kill momentum in the game, helping to introduce a level of apathy that makes lynches hard to accomplish. This subtly pushes the town toward deadline compromise lynches, which somehow never seemed to be pointed at Pasch.

Both Pecan and morph can be said to have expressed suspicion of Pasch, but what has either done to really help get him closer to lynch? Hell, most of the time I feel like I've been the only one really willing to put in the legwork to do any serious analysis of his play and actually make a case against him rather than simply asserting that he's scummy or agreeing with the general consensus. This is exactly what I think the scumteam has been counting on, a lone voice getting lost in waves of apathetic play from both scum and town.

P.S. - You're welcome for un-tanking your scum team.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Spoiler: Day 5 voting analysis

- Day opens with 4 votes on Empking (Desp, notsci, Garruk, Pasch, in that order)
- MoS posts analysis of claims and reads, ending in a vote on Pasch
- Pecan agrees with MoS
- Desp switches vote to Pecan, then joined by Formerfish
- Pecan immediately follows MoS onto Pasch, joined by Empking in the next post

At this point, here's the VC:

Empking (3) - notscience, Garruk Relentless, Paschendale
pieceofpecanpie (2) - Desperado, Formerfish
Paschendale (3) - Mastermind of Sin, pieceofpecanpie, Empking

- I have to actually credit Generic for calling the scumteam at this point: Pecan, Pasch, Empking were his list, although he thought there were only two scum left
- Pecan then says he'd also be willing to lynch Empking
- myko votes Pecan
- Generic votes Pasch
- Generic unvotes and says he'll hammer the first of the three to reach L-1
- myko and DV derp around and vote MoS, SpyreX joins the Pasch wagon, Generic votes myko
- AJ and myko vote Pecan
- Generic votes Pasch
- Desp unvotes Pecan and votes Empking
- Generic votes Empking
- Pasch votes pecan, bringing the VC to:

Paschendale (4) - Mastermind of Sin, pieceofpecanpie, Empking, SpyreX
Empking (4) - notscience, Garruk Relentless, Desperado, Generic
pieceofpecanpie (4) - Formerfish, Aj the Epic, mykonian, Paschendale
Mastermind of Sin (1) - DeasVail

- notsci and AJ vote Empking
- Formerfish votes Generic
- Generic votes SpyreX
- Desp, Formerfish, MoS, Morph, and Generic all vote myko in a span of 7 posts
- Pecan votes myko and Garruk hammers

So here's what I think happened. I would not be at all surprised to see that all three scum had leading competing wagons. We had just come off of two scum lynches, we had good momentum and lots of information. I think that Pasch tried to slide on to bus his scumbuddy in the wake of the first three votes to open the day. Then, when I made my post and voted Pasch, Pecan agreed with me but didn't place a vote anywhere and drew two votes on himself. At this point, Pecan and Empking decided to further spread things by following me onto Pasch. This effectively split the entire town three ways, because everyone suspected at least one person who was actually scum, but we couldn't agree on which one was most likely and should be lynched. It also meant that none of the scum had to take a strong stance or put their necks out trying to push a mislynch, since they were following the lead of town players and getting distancing cred at the same time. This ended up with all three wagons feeling like they stalled out, leaving us with a compromise lynch on mykonian to end the day.

I also can't say that I'm super happy with Generic's voting pattern in Day 5...if I wasn't already having trouble coming up with scumbuddies for him, I'd be really curious about his derpy opportunistic voting.

[Mastermind of Sin]

if that was a scum move I'm talking to mods on high

Yea I hear you, but at the same time if we start punishing scum for replacing out under pressure, then town will start confirming themselves by exploiting those situations... :/

[Mastermind of Sin]

The problem with lynching Empking is that if you think there are three scum ad one of the lovers is town, we literally cannot lynch him today. SpyreX refuses to consider lynching his lover and offing himself today, so we have to take out one of Empking's buddies instead. It takes five to lynch, and we only have four town votes available to vote Empking.

I am not confident enough in any other read besides Pasch to consider voting them today.

SpyreX: You're going to need to deal with the fact that Empking is almost definitely scum. If not today, soon.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So you think pasch and pecan have been double-bussing all game?

Why is this the question you asked Empking? Why not ask him why he thinks Pasch & Generic/Penguin are buddies?

[Mastermind of Sin]

So you think pasch and pecan have been double-bussing all game?

Why is this the question you asked Empking? Why not ask him why he thinks Pasch & Generic/Penguin are buddies?

Both questions need asking. Conversational mode is a thing.

Pasch/Generic buddy is a more complicated question to process. Pasch and Pecan have been sniping at each other since forever. It's been a constant feature of every gameday since Day 2. Maybe day 1.

It started right after DV almost got lynched, which I think was D2 or D3?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't really have anything more to say for that convo atm. I've already given my thoughts on scum interactions, I just wondered why morph chose that particular line of questioning to focus. Empking doesn't seem interested in expounding much, which doesn't surprise me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I am utterly clueless as to why one question vs the other is of concern.

Because you're still not 100% cleared in my mind, your choice didn't make sense to me, and I'm trying to make sure I watch all the angles. Choosing one question vs the other could potentially be an indicator of your motivation in questioning him in the first place. I wanted to see how you responded so that it was on record for future days in case I needed to come back to it or if I was dead and someone else needed to address it but wouldn't have thought to do so if I hadn't pointed it out.

[Mastermind of Sin]

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think Empking is the pretty obvious bus here, after SpyreX and I baited the shit out of it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Given the theme of this game, I think it's only appropriate that I say the following now:

Rabble.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I've been fighting the plague - is there anything else that needs to be done, or can we get to night?

Nope, although it's amusing to see Empking and Pasch try to do some last-minute distancing lol...

Just waiting on penguin or notscience to hammer.

Pecan is mega-lurking and hoping we'll forget about him, I think.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The only way penguin is scum is as Pasch's buddy at this point. That is highly unlikely, as I noted previously.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ok seriously, though, this lynch should have been done two days ago. What the actual fuck? I know it's potentially MYLO and all, but we've talked this through to death. Make a goddamn decision already and stop being part of the fucking apathy problem that has caused so many potential scum lynches to fizzle in this game. I'm fucking tired of that shit.

Hammer or GTFO.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Pasch's response doesn't actually address the question directly...he dodged the point entirely and deflected it into another opportunity to bitch and moan about how he's getting lynched.

[Mastermind of Sin]

[Mastermind of Sin]

..

Yea, because you've been such a bastion of townieness this game, Pasch. You've done sooooo much to help the town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

All I hear is "boo hoo I'm a Cassandra". Well, too bad, that's my title. You can't have it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

More serious thoughts in a bit.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Scum QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/KPZzcgn8kK4f

Scumteam actions:

N1 - SpyreX kills Nachomollie, MoS blocks Desperado, Porkens rolecops Majiffy
N2 - SpyreX kills Majiffy, MoS blocks Garruk, Porkens rolecops Desperado
N3 - Pecan kills SpyreX, MoS blocks Garruk
N4 - SpyreX kills Nachomollie, MoS blocks Formerfish
N5 - SpyreX kills AJ the Epic, MoS blocks Generic
N6 - SpyreX kills Desperado, MoS blocks Formerfish
N7 - SpyreX kills Formerfish, MoS blocks notscience
N8 - SpyreX kills notscience, MoS blocks penguin_alien

- So yea...SpyreX *was* actually blocked from killing Nachomollie N1. Thank you morph for claiming BP and taking the heat off of him. Garruk blocking SpyreX N1 actually turned into one of the best things that could happen for our team, because it allowed SpyreX to perform the NK with impunity every night after that (except N3, obviously), since we could read Garruk and figure out if they needed to be blocked or not in the future. After SpyreX got semi-confirmed by counterclaiming Porkens, we could just ignore Garruk and block Formerfish instead, since he wasn't going to block the claimed docs and stop their cross-protects from working.
- The mods allowed us to gambit by killing SpyreX on N3 solely because we were playing to our win condition. Our plan was to either "confirm" SpyreX by having a Formerfish protection occur or to "confirm" T-Bone by having a nightkill show up on a mafia member, thereby making it look like there might be a werewolf team. It would also have the side effect of taking out the other lover for us.
- My song was actually "Street Corner Symphony - Voodoo". I lied about my song just to fake the Starship Troopers PR, and because it made things more interesting if there was a small chance that I got counterclaimed on my song.
- I don't know what Porkens or T-Bone were thinking with their claims...the entirety of claimgate went horribly, horribly wrong, definitely not what I'd wanted to see. We really failed to take advantage of our daytalk to plan it out better.
- Mad props to pecan and SpyreX for working with me to get us through that endgame. That took a lot of legwork to pull off, especially after claimgate blew up in our faces.
- I don't understand how I was able to fake a post restriction for half the game and then completely drop it after claiming VT and have NO ONE push me about it. I ended up using it as a change of behavior to make people subconsciously suspect me less because they were no longer being annoyed by my Starship Troopers quotes.
- I'd been planning to claim a PR (probably limited-shot bodyguard that couldn't target if I broke my PR during the previous day), but after my ENTIRE team decided to steal my thunder and claim PRs themselves, I had to go with VT.
- I'm so, so sorry, morph. I really wanted to be on your team this game, and it broke my heart to have to play you like that. I think your indecisiveness as a pair helped out the scum a lot in this game, perhaps.
- Paschendale, don't you dare come in here and try to be all high and mighty. You were as much to blame for this loss as anyone else on the town, because you let yourself get put in a position where your arguments held absolutely no weight. We set that up on purpose, too, so don't go around calling the town idiots just for falling for it.

This was a pretty fun game, but the general town apathy definitely hurt both the game and the town overall...still, I think after claimgate there was a very good chance that we would have lost if our team hadn't played the resulting days perfectly. I had to work my ass off to pull this one out, especially on the last day or two.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Generic was a possible mislynch because I knew I could push him into screwing himself over and getting lynched if I needed to. I didn't expect him to rage-quit, though. I fully believe that the arguments I was making were not terribly off the mark, and Generic had to know that either I was scum and getting under his skin on purpose or that I was town and making my arguments from a place of sincerity. It's unfortunate that he chose to leave the game when he did, and that nearly screwed over our plan for the final day.

[Mastermind of Sin]

welp

- Paschendale, don't you dare come in here and try to be all high and mighty. You were as much to blame for this loss as anyone else on the town, because you let yourself get put in a position where your arguments held absolutely no weight. We set that up on purpose, too, so don't go around calling the town idiots just for falling for it.

I think that this is unfair. pasch looked objectively less scummy than the scum players left in the game, you said you set him up, why are you as scum going "oh hai it was your own fault you got lynched even tho that is how we set it up!". like I don't get this <--- I am just trying to understand

anyways ty for the game

When I say that we set up his lynch, I mean that we took advantage of the way that Pasch's playstyle is completely detrimental to town to get him lynched. His "come at me bro" attitude, combined with incessant whining every time someone accused him of being scum...that's all on him. Pasch went around saying that the town was stupid not for seeing him as town when he's arguing from a standpoint of knowing his own alignment. That kind of self-righteous indignation is not at all helpful to town play, and I capitalized the hell out of it to take the win. If Pasch or Generic had been willing to reevaluate their own behavior and actually act in a manner that could benefit the town, I'd have been stuck treading in deep water and we wouldn't have been able to manipulate the town like we did. They were as much part of the problem as anyone else.

All things considered, I actually think morph played a better town game than anyone else (excepting perhaps the masons) who lived past the claimgate fiasco (which culminated in T-Bone's lynch and Nachomollie's death). I worked my ass off specifically because morph was in the game...if not for morph and the masons, we'd have steamrolled even after dropping two of our own to back-to-back lynches. No one else who was left in the game mattered to us except those 3, really. notsci, myko, Empking, DV, pasch, and Generic were not putting forth the strength of presence or logic to have been a threat to us, Formerfish and Garruk were handled once we survived D2 with SpyreX and his subsequent doc claim, and Generic/Pasch were also easily used to distract the town from actually being able to effectively hunt scum. Essentially, everything I did after Day 4 was for the benefit of a very small group of town players who held all the meaningful power when it came to getting town momentum in the proper direction.

There's also the fact that the people who misread a townie are almost always to blame over the person who gets mislynched.

That's categorically untrue. Town players have a duty to act in the town's best interests as much as possible. Getting mislynched for not doing so is as much (if not more) on the shoulders of the person who got lynched as those who voted them.

[Mastermind of Sin]

so how do you think town could have played better? cos I am really interested.

- I am shocked that I got away with not only faking a PR, but also pretending to BREAK it on Day 2 and then completely stopping it altogether on Day 5 or so. I should have been called on that, and the person who came the closest to making a deal out of it was my own scumbuddy (pecan, I think).
- Porkens should have been lynched way before he was. Like, I know I was bussing him and I was also actively trying to bus him in a way that drew out his lynch as long as possible, but I don't think he should have made it past D2 tbh.
- Lovers should not have lived as long as they did. I'd have lynched the shit out of SpyreX after claimgate. I mean, really? A doc/lover combo role in a game where every other role is very basic? Not to mention the balance of doc/doc/bp/rb/watcher/cop is incredibly strong even with the lover as a weakness.
- Pecan's cop claim shouldn't have stood as long as it did. Honestly, that was a gambit we made after morph's botched BP claim. When they claimed X-shot BP that *knew* they'd been hit, we knew that either there was a second killer out there (unlikely) or they were lying. We also knew that based on our setup information, X-shot really meant 1-shot (or morph was lying about their role altogether in some sort of town gambit to save SpyreX from a bad lynch). So we managed to get the 1-shot part into the fakeclaim before morph claimed it for their role, which lent it some credence. I still don't think the claim should have been allowed to stand, though.
- Town apathy and compromise lynches really hurt them this game. I feel like I, as scum, fought the hardest to avoid compromise lynches, and that's a bad sign.
- The fact that I was able to rail against compromise lynches and then repeatedly jump off my top suspect for a compromise lynch should never have been allowed. I lynched both EPM and myko as compromise lynches WHILE my top suspects were voting them both times. I have no idea how I got away with that.

Also, fuck site meta. Bad town play is still bad town play, and it always will be. I'm not going to compromise that just because people refuse to learn better game strategy.

I was following the game too but very perfunctorily. I think it is natural for scum to side with the people they manipulated at endgame because no scum wants to say at endgame (Ha, look at how well we fooled you!) because that sort of meta will cause them to be suspected even more in future games and given less of a benefit of the doubt. They would much rather blame it on the players they got lynched. I still think saying that it was Pasch's fault that town lost is a bit of a stretch. This is coming from a mostly uninformed perspective and I haven't verified the truth of Pasch's statements that he "opposed" town wagons and pushed scum. It looked from his votes that his scumhunting was average at best and he did defend Spyrex. But if what he says is true (his implication that he called out all the scum and town didn't listen to him), then everyone is at fault for not re-evaluating although I actually doubt the truth of the statement and I am not sure where exactly Pasch seemingly played so well. Point is, I think everyone (inluding Pasch) share the blame equally for the town loss and the scum played well. I felt Spyrex was scummy while reading the thread but wasn't sure about anything or anyone else.

I don't think Pasch is responsible for losing the game at all. I wouldn't blame anyone for the loss, and I think it's equally shared between poor town play and scum capitalizing on any advantages we could create. I do, however, believe that Pasch's playstyle directly contributed to his own lynch (which by chance happened to end the game, but that was not the point I was making), and I think his comments at the end of that day simply refused to recognize that. Additionally, randomly saying people are scum and actually making a case to argue for them to be scum are two VERY different things. Pasch did way more of the former than the latter, and it was a strong point that I used against him in trying to get him lynched.

Also, I'm not sure who you think I'm "siding" with. I've already readily called out where I think the town could have improved, and I've made specific comments about morph's play (because I think they're the kind of players who will take constructive feedback in stride and use it to improve their game).

I played about average, but this game continued a long trend where most people seem to simply suck at reading me, and I'm wrongly run up quite often. People don't like my style. Big games like this one are a lot less fun than smaller (12-13 player) games. Everything is way too chaotic in the beginning.

It's weird how badly MoS wants to defend this, though. Town mislynched and lost. It happens. Why do you want to make this personal?

I made one comment in response to your comments before you were lynched (which I obviously couldn't respond to candidly because the game wasn't over yet), and a bunch of people (some of which didn't even play in this game) jumped out to defend you and question my statement. Everything after that has just been fallout. So no, it's not personal, I just think you need to reevaluate how to use your playstyle in a way that actually benefits the town rather than hurting it.

Nice play, scum team. Really wouldn't have gotten you at all, MoS.

<3.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's categorically untrue. Town players have

a duty to act in the town's best interests as much as possible. Getting mislynched for not doing so

is as much (if not more) on the shoulders of the person who got lynched as those who voted them.

Resisting urge to be a dick...

People don't get mislynched for not acting in town's best interests. "Town's best interest" is already a nebulous concept that we could spend a lot of time discussing, but it's ultimately a moot point because if you fill a town with players with 10/10 scumhunting 1/10 "looking town," they'll still win every time, whereas a town full of 1/10 scumhunting 10/10 looking town will win by RNG.

If you approach the game with an attitude of "oh, I mislynched him. He shouldn't have been so scummy," you're gonna be a shit player forever because you aren't taking it on yourself to figure out how to actually catch scum. Which is your job. You can't count on other people to do that for you.

I don't think you've been around here long enough to give me a lecture about what it takes to be a good player.

Seriously, though, I'm saying this as someone who has been where Pasch has been. I understand EXACTLY what's wrong about what he's doing, because that used to be me. There is a very real reason I earned my "Cassandra Complex" title...

While I would put the onus of Pasch's lynch more on him than the town, I would say that most other lynches this game were on town(myko, epm, hiraki). The other main offender was my lynch--which was my fault, although I maintain my position that I don't think formerfish was interested in being convinced.

Yea, that and I worked REALLY hard to discredit you all game...as your RB counterpart, I felt it was my solemn duty to see you lynched for my sins at some point.

[Mastermind of Sin]

No, what I'm saying is that there is a point where you have to stop blaming everyone else for not just going along with what you're saying and start looking at why nobody gives any credence to what you're saying. In this case it was directly correlated to why Pasch got lynched.

Why do you care so much, anyway?

[Mastermind of Sin]

You realize I was scum, right? ..and that none of the town players have said anything like that?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not claiming that not making a case is inherently scummy. I'm saying that it helps get people lynched. Paschendale didn't get lynched because a lot of players had incorrect reads, he got lynched because I used his playstyle against him and he didn't do anything to stop it. The other players were manipulated, but you can't blame them for wanting to be rid of him.

I was scum, so I knew he was town the whole time. I'm not sure exactly what "reads" you think I need to fix.

Meta is bullshit, malleable, and just as easy to manipulate as anything else. Only a very strong pattern bears any true weight in deciding a person's alignment, and even then it's very minimal and outweighed by most anything else that actually happens in the game.

Also, for the record, plenty of people tried to engage Paschendale on his reads. Heck, the fact that he had nothing of substance to say about his reads was a primary factor in the case I built against him when I got him mislynched.

For someone who wasn't in the game and only "skimmed" it, you have an awful lot of opinions about what everyone but Pasch did wrong.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I called you out on it.

Well, you did question whether it was real, but it seemed more like you were first working from your scumread on me and then concluding that it was possibly fake. I was more just commenting on the tells I made that should have been called out (most of which happened after you died).

I don't understand why you are saying "fuck site meta" when it largely agrees with what you are saying and to me, that is the problem. mebbe I just have a different view on what bad town play is.

I'm not saying that the current site meta is wrong or right, just that I think the entire concept of site meta is dumb.

it seemed like it took forever to get nacho to see that you were scum but I kind of blame myself for that cos I kept getting distracted by shiny things. I don't think any1 is going to argue that scum played a kick-ass game and sincerely hope that you do not think that I am trying to take that away from you (lol, as if I could).

I don't get why people thought that you were town to me it looked like you were obviously bussing porkens and the way you ramped up activity after we were dead seemed obvious to me. I had hope when majiffy subbed in and we zeroed in on pecan right away but no1 was willing to go against morph's town read on them (except notty). or their town read on you.

Yea, I was counting on that backfiring on you when it turned out that Porkens was the mafia rolecop, because it wouldn't have made sense for me to try bussing our most valuable role D1. That, and we just decided to kill you N1 anyway. =P

I think you have a GREAT point about town apathy and compromise lynches. I know I checked out for a good bit until nacho gave me a head's up about tbone's claim and I was like wat. I think we only got him lynched cos you guys helped.

He deserved it, the scumbag! =P

I thought pasch was pretty transparent with his thought processes. they might not have made sense to other people but they made sense to me. <--- this is why I addressed you in the first place. I felt it was unfair to blame pasch for his mislynch when scum had moved him in that position in the first place. it seems like the town you are applauding are the people who helped you win.

Well, just about everyone on the town helped us win, if you want to look at it that way. Pasch spent plenty of time helping me lynch people, too. What I meant when I called out certain town members were the people who we were most worried about as a scumteam, the people who we felt had the greatest chance of bringing out a town win (you/Nacho, morph, AJ, Desp, etc). They're often the people we manipulated the most, but that's because we specifically made an effort to tailor our play against the town players who were the greatest danger to us. It didn't matter if someone like Pasch or notscience thought we were scum, because they weren't doing anything to convince anyone else.

Anyway, I thought it was a fun game, and we definitely had to work hard for that win, especially after claimgate fucked us. At one point it looked like we were going to lose Porkens/T-Bone/SpyreX/Pecan in back-to-back lynches, so we worked on trying to set me up to survive and carry the game for scum. Step #1 in making that remotely possible was killing you, mollie. =P

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yea, that was pretty awesome.

For those who want to follow the Scum QT when we decided to kill SpyreX, it's posts 398-426. Pretty fun read.