I love the 90's Cartoons - Game over all hail The Brain!

[Jal]

VOTE: PM
He asked for an early role claim and backed out of the vote when pressure was on him. Doesn't give a concrete answer as to why suddenly he's convinced.
Refers to lynches as proper/"safe" - instead of to catch scum.

Arugula

:

and probably a Baby alt

What?

[Jal]

Sorry for the wallishness of this post. Trying to catch-up.

Seanald

:

Nice opportunism Jal, jump on the popular wagon in your first post and only talking about PM. and I didnt even really understand what you wrote here. Do you have any reads on anyone else the game?

If I think someone is scum I'm going to vote for them, regardless of the popularity of the wagon.

I'm curious in why you pinpoint

my

vote and "opportunism" on PM, yet you entirely ignored PeregrineV's post above mine wherein that it also

his

first post in the game and he voted for PM as well.

Your lucky i love pokemon however Pokemon came out in 1999 hardly to be considered a cartoon popularized in the 90's. So is it more likely to be a fakeclaim? or actual claim. Idk I'll need some others to weight in on that.

Why would you need others to weigh in to make a decision for you? Unsure if others will stay on the bandwagon?

Your playing so bad Its almost like I have to believe you....

This is an incredibly fake back-off. You are just trying to find any excuse to prepare yourself to get of this wagon which was at the time starting to look like it might have fallen apart due to PM's claim. Your sudden attacking of a few people who voted for PM, reeks of trying to get town points if either PM flips town or the bandwagon falls apart.

The PM lynch is in no way a bad choice. He has played Anti-town this entire time, If he is town then we are just getting someone who will just be a distraction out of the way. He should be ashamed of himself for signing up on this game or the mod should have checked how qualified he was.

he back-tracks and is now just saying anything to stay alive. He has caused about 6 of the pages of conversation so far. Anyone who thinks his wagon is stupid, mind as well claim his scum buddy.

Now you're just waffling here. Is he so bad he must be town or is he scum? You're attaching yourself to ideas here and then excusing yourself from liability if PM flips town. OH HE WAS SO BAD IT WAS BENEFICIAL TO THE TOWN TO LYNCH HIM. NO WORRY GUYS. Also, nice touch on designating anyone who disagrees with his wagon. People who vote for PM are suspect and people who think the wagon is bad are suspect. You have all of your bases covered, don't you?

Seanaldo, why exactly do you believe PM is scum? Why were/are you willing to believe his claim and yet keep your vote on him?

VOTE: Seanald

Question: You believe PM and I are scum together then?

[Jal]

A few thoughts

Guy_Named_Rigg's post 100 was awful and rather scummish due to his excuses. He also entirely ignores BabyBlue's correcting him. They probably aren't scum together.

BabyBlue is leaning slightly townie to me - seems most votes she's gotten are for personal reasons instead of her being scummy.

Arugula is doing some decent scum hunting with his questioning and is looking rather townie to me. I think I'm finally in a game where I don't lynch you!

I'm here and there on PM, currently. He does things which seem scummy, but I'm getting mixed messages in his motivations from his posts after the bandwagon grew fairly large. Claim is bleh. I understand why people are both on or off this wagon. I want to see more from him when not under pressure.

iDanny seems town who may be trying too hard. His posts don't come across as fake to me.

PM

: What is your experience in playing online mafia?

iDanny

: How does saying "Pika" is Pm's attempt at faking a post restriction? I thought it was a bit jokish regarding the talking on post restrictions.

[Jal]

@Agent_Ireland: I'll try to translate what you are saying.

"Restrictions Apply, PM should be lynched for false restriction" Is that correct?

If so, there are way better scum out there.

Besides, I'm probably not going to live Night 1 because of my role-reveal . (Yes, it is a VG for one cost.

$13579

. Hope you can figure that out)

So you are scum?

P-edit - I saw that too.

[Jal]

Seanaldo

: Accusing others of being overeager scum eh?

This is the same person who said:

Found scum guys, Cool were done for the day.


I already told you guys, now stack the votes and sheep.

Which you said earlier in regard to PM. Yes, I do believe

you are

overeager scum. You're next.

Matt: That's a lynch

[Jal]

It's always better to keep a townie alive today and lynch a potential scum regardless, BabyBlue.

[Jal]

PeregrineV

:

It seems obvious both BabyBlue and PMysterious were so new their paint hadn't even dried

If it was so obvious, why did you vote for PM?

Riceballtail

Unvote; Vote:PereV

Pushing hard on new players gets reliable scumtells, even if it gets a bit harsh.

The reasoning you wrote after your vote seems to imply you're voting for PereV due to disagreeing with him, rather than finding him scummy. Can you better clarify what gives your scumdar going with this post or him in general?

MattP

Yes.

If I didn't come in and defend PM I bet he would have been hammered, and I'd bet a lot of money on that.

PM's dramatic self-perceived hammering post saved PM from being further voted on and possibly hammered. I don't see anyone coming in afterward to vote him. I'm failing to see how you had any part in this. I'm also dubious as to why you feel the need to to proclaim yourself as PM's savior of sorts.

Seanaldo

:

First, I was the only one to bring about the topic of it being a possible fakeclaim and im still the only one, dont know why exactly.

You weren't. See pages 8-10 of the thread. Do you think all those votes on PM afterward are by people truly thinking they were voting a vig off?

Also, if you still think PM is possibly fake-claiming, why aren't you still voting for him?

[Jal]

@Riceballtail

As I posted pointed out and asked you earlier:

The reasoning you wrote after your vote seems to imply you're voting for PereV due to disagreeing with him, rather than finding him scummy. Can you better clarify what gives your scumdar going with this post or him in general?

[Jal]

Meant that to read as, "As I pointed out and asked you earlier."

[Jal]

Curious I share your feelings about seanald and have been planning to ISO him at some point today to rip him a new one

Will do chief on the Seanald ISO, which will have to come tonight.

No, I don't have a completed scum game with Baby.

So, when is this long foretold ISO of Seanaldo going to come?

[Jal]

Amrun

: Are PV and Riceballtail scumbuddies together then? Nothing you've written prior indicates you think PV is less scummy - or do you agree with Rice?

[Jal]

Amrun

: Fair answer.

MattP is just defending himself and not doing nothing else. Trying to brush off his accusations with humour isn't impressing me either. Not a big fan of either MattP or Seanaldo at the moment.

[Jal]

My post somehow disappeared.

Lastsurvivor

:

@Jal: Who's worst? MattP or Seanald?

Seanaldo. I do agree with you, in that MattP's ISO of Seanald was "unconvincing." But why?

I'll delve a bit more into Seanald, MattP, and a few others later tonight or tomorrow. There's been a few people who have definitely been flying under my radar and I want to take a closer look at them. Maybe update my reads list a bit.

[Jal]

Although I agree with you that RBT's refusal to explain their vote is not protown motivated, I don't find it scum motivated either. I think it's more indicative of a poor choice both in just voting without any other content, as well as not responding to others asking for a case, than of their alignment.

-
I'll continue a tad where I left off.

I still think Seanaldo is the scummiest of the bunch. I feel as though people are excusing him due to his bad attitude. Disregard his attitude and look at what Seanaldo says, and what possible town motivation someone could have for his play.

I already made a few posts detailing what's suspicious about his behavior, with this post in particular being the main one. Sword_of_Omens (post) and CKD also thoroughly go into detail about what of Seanald's play is suspect if you want other's P.O.V.

[Jal]

Continuing my thoughts on MattP:

MattP is scummy, I agree. Attributing Seanald's scumminess to being part of his "persona" just doesn't agree with me. It felt like MattP couldn't come up with a good read and just threw a few quotes together and tried to make something of it. This seems more associative-scummy though, as I feel if MattP were a lone scum, he'd give a scummier read than "null-scum" on Seanald - the next biggest bandwagon. However, if you look at it that way, this also may indicate MattP is town.

As things stand, I don't think I'm comfortable with a MattP lynch until a Seanaldo flip at this time.

Also, I'm totally not seeing what others are seeing about kdowns.

[Jal]

Nero Cain

: Just about none of this post makes sense. Pray tell, how is Lowman scum?

MichelSableheart

:

Jal, why didn't you take into account MattP's reaction to PM's selfhammer into account in your analysis of him? That's by far the biggest scumtell in the game, IMO.

Because I wasn't doing an analysis of him - I was continuing my (slow and incremental) response to LS as to who I think was worse between Seanald and MattP. I've already stated my disliking of MattP's dubious behavior in regard to his reaction to PM's self-hammer and declaring himself as some sort of savior afterwards. It's scummy, but how do you find it a "scumtell?"

[Jal]

Lowman

:

1.

The RiceBall wagon is awful, it's being composed of awfully suspicious players and voting her for withholding reasoning is awful because usually that stubbornness only comes from town. In fact her entire ISO reads as town and I get way too nervous thinking about the primary pushers of a Rice lynch. Basically what I'm saying is that you should NOT lynch Rice today.

*PING PING PING* Attempting to save a scumbuddy.

Unvote, Vote: projectmatt

Your vote for RBT looks like it was for pressure. Now you conclude RBT is scummy and you're changing your vote to a scummy association? This doesn't make sense and looks scummy within itself.

MichelSableheart

:

I would have expected that comparing who is worse would involve analysing them both.

The reason that behaviour is a strong scumtell is that if he truly believed the PM "lynch" was bad (which he is complaining about there), he would have unvoted a couple of minutes earlier, thereby preventing PM from hammering. He doesn't, yet starts complaining 3 minutes after the "hammer". His actions don't match his stated beliefs, which probably means his stated beliefs are fake. And the only ones faking beliefs are scum.

Isn't that assuming he was even around and hovering over the thread and waiting prior to PM's "lynch?" Anyway, I do agree with you in that his actions don't match his beliefs. It was made clearish in the thread prior to the PM "lynch," that he had a vig sort of power and MattP could have stepped up and suggested directing PM's power

then

. Instead he suggested it after, in a way that seems to place the blame on other people. One scum tell doesn't make for a scum, however.

I have mixed feelings about MattP's slot. Maybe I am WIFOMing his Seanald read hardcore, though.

Nero Cain

:

Why are you more concerned with my scum read on lowman and not you?

Lowman is scum b/c his vote on RBT looks very opportunistic. I had no issue with him voting kdowns but he had no reason to get off kdowns.

What am I to gain by asking you why you have a scum read on me? You're not going to convince me of being something I'm not, and I doubt what I say in direct reply to your reasons is going to change your mind either. I feel my actions will eventually clear me. If you want to state your reasons though, go ahead.

RBT's minimal vote on GNR looked like it was for reactions, whereas yours didn't. I wanted a clearer answer as to why Lowman was scum. Compared to others votes on RBT, and his sudden switch to projectmatt, I'm starting to see things from your point of view.

[Jal]

Sorry guy - late heads up. Going v/LA until Sunday July 8th. However, I'll make a catch up post by late tonight. I am using someone else's phone right now to post and it sucks. Apologies for my lack of recent posts.

[Jal]

I can only make a brief post, actually.

Nero - Why would Lucky and Low man claiming mason make you sad? If it is true, then that's two confirmed town we don't need to worry about. Given their claimed roles, I am going to believe their claim. Why do you keep pushing your doubts? It's not happening today.

I really dislike people voting for themselves, but Seanald doing that is a very null tell in my books. I agree with LS here, I believe the PMS were inconsistent, or at least very dependent on cartoon character. That is not much of a tell to me and I hope no one gets lynched down the road because they don't have a full name either. I really liked Seanald's post 775 though, especially in regard to his interaction with CKD and in that he doesn't totally ignore him and does respond to the case CKD brought against him in the next post. When I have more time tomorrow or Monday, I want to look more into his responses in depth. Right now, I am keeping my vote on him until I have caught myself fully up to speed.

LS - Why is Idany a much better lynch for today?

Also, people need to get their votes off of RBT. There is absolutely nothing scummy about RBT. What the hell?

This post was much longer than I anticipated.

[Jal]

Why are you so concerned with the votes on RBT? He's not even the leading wagon.

Why are you so concerned with whom I'm "concerned" about in this game?

@LS - Thanks for the case. I'm going to look more into those posts when I have more time tonight to read and post.

@Agent Ireland: I don't really care for the excuse, especially since it looks like you weren't restricted from telling everyone about your PR irregularities. Why suddenly come out with it now? Not as though you were under much pressure. What are some of your reads?

Also, we're going to have to start thinking about directing PM's vig shot tonight.

[Jal]

Arugula

:

Why are you so concerned with the votes on RBT? He's not even the leading wagon.

Why are you so concerned with whom I'm "concerned" about in this game?

Really? +scumpoints

Are you so tunnel visioned up iDany's ass that you don't pay attention to the rest of the game? He currently has an unsubstantiated scum claim on me and this is his second time he's pestered me over my "concerns" over other players (one of whom turned out to be mason), which has resulted in nothingness. It's

starting

to feel like he's just searching for something to find me scummy on and it's grating on my nerves.

Regardless,

he's not even in danger of getting lynched so I don't see a reason for you to tell folks not to vote him.

I don't think RBT is scummy - at least not enough to justify a vote at this point in time.

But - Let's put aside my feelings here that RBT is not scummy. Just for a moment. It's starting to get down to the wire and no one is clearly jumping on that wagon. Surely the people on there have more than one scum read? Either start convincing us RBT is scummy or hop onto a wagon with more than one or two people on it instead of stalling the game.

I've decided my vote is staying on Seanald. The claim means nothing at all to me. I don't know what exactly people were expecting when they were asking for him to claim, especially a vt claim.

I've looked at the iDany case and I find it to be meh. Does anyone have an accurate vote count on him? I seem to be failing at counting in my games as of late. I don't want an accidental lynch.

[Jal]

@jal: I don't think trying to direct PM is a good idea. We're having trouble enough getting to agree on a lynch already. Just let PM decide carefully about who she is going to shoot and why, and let her explain her decission tomorrow. Less chance of scum manipulation that way.

Why would you let someone whom you think is a VI choose for themselves who to kill? Wasn't that a big worry earlier in the game?

Also, PM is a guy.

[Jal]

That's fine by me.

[Jal]

Nero Cain

:

OH NOES!!! JAL IZ GETTIN' ANGRY. Honestly dude, you have a town read on RBT. Awesome. He's in no danger of getting lynched so what do you do? Tell people to not vote RBT in case the big bad 11 man scum team comes in and quickhammers.Its doing something for the sake of doing something and it serves no purpose what so ever.

Snarky, aren't you? It's quite obvious by my last big post that I wasn't particularly worried about people suddenly getting on that wagon. Still not.

It's just a bad wagon.

He was not sheparding people to join one of the three leading wagons (idany, Sean, Kdowns) He singled out two people while there were 8 others not on one of the big wagons. So I fail to see his point and I fail to see why you are defending him.

Probem 1: I don't have a town read on any of those people except RBT. The rest are null or scummy to me. The exception is maybe PM, whose only vote on him was by someone who hadn't posted in 4 days or much at all in the thread. Excuse me if I don't care about this "wagon" either.
Problem 2: RBT was the only other wagon besides Seanald, iDany and kdowns to have more than one person on it.

MichelSableheart

:

(also, anyone with a Jigglypuff avatar will be perceived by me as female, regardless of gender).

You're being deliberate in this. You're referring to him as a woman to be insulting. You are making it

a bad thing

. As a woman, this is starting to become insulting to myself.

[Jal]

emergency VLA for the next two days

I would put idany to l-1 but I won't be here to move the vote so I put my vote there in spirit

Why would that be a problem if you want idany lynched?

This is a very good question.

[Jal]

I see iDany got lynched. I would have preferred more of VisceraEyes reads before the onslaught of pictures tomorrow, but it is what it is. You can still share your thoughts with us until night starts, however.

Thanks for not being a pussy Porochaz. Suscpision on anyone who commented on Idanyboy after his L-1 comments and didn't vote him. Fear of hammering = scumtell.

If that decission is perceived as an insult, I must sincerely apologize, because that is absolutely not my intention.

It was getting on my nerves when you and others did it. I would continuously forget to mention it in my posts, however.

Calling PM a girl isn't scummy, just rude.

Agreed.

[Jal]

He's already lynched.

[Jal]

We're not going to get too much out of discussing tonight's night kills, especially with it being only D2 and with this game's playerbase being this size.

@PM - Considering kdowns soft claim in post 855 - Did you not believe it?

[Jal]

LastSurvivor

:

Says we're not getting much out of discussing night kills
Discusses night kills.

I'm talking about speculation. However, it's not necessary for us to speculate PM's kill choice, non?

MichelSableheart and Amrun

:

beep boop beep boop

INPUT: Above post

OUTPUT: Why don't you value NK analysis?

bleep bloop bleep bloop

@Jal: I think there is some information to be gained from discussing the projectMatt kill. It means that for some reason, the killer wanted to leave the claimed masons and the claimed odd night vig alone. Appearantly, they considered projectMatt a bigger threat. Looking over his posts, it seems to me he was mostly suspicious of Nero, started attacking Arugula who has been mostly left alone, and recently changed his mind on Oversoul to scum. If there are multiple mafiosi among those three, that could explain why projectMatt was considered a threat. It's not a strong indication, but something to keep in mind.

On D2, it's mostly all WIFOM we're working with here when we make these conclusions (Michel). We're working with a lack of information currently. At this point in the game, I think it benefits scum moreso than town as it's so easy to construe our own meaning and biases for the kill which may potentially have nothing to do with it. I think we can definitely get information from it, but moreso in the way Kmd analyzes it.

[Jal]

The reaction test probably would have worked better if there was

any

indication of there being a sk. You just gave a good excuse to have many people vote for you without actually needing much of a reaction or explanation at all. The only thing I can say with certainty, is what you did was definitely

not

a pro-town maneuver.

@Oversoul: You never answered the question directly - why do you think Nero is scum?
@Nero: Why do you think Oversoul is scum?

I don't think either of you has indicated you thought the other was scum until today.

Kmd

:

So yeah. Oversoul and Nero are scum.

Oversoul's Nero vote along with Nero's reaction (which occurred

after

you wrote this) leads me to believe otherwise. As in, if one is scum, I don't believe the other is scum also.

[Jal]

Did anyone else think that Oversoul was hinting at being a PR with the sudden Nero vote and lack of real explanation for awhile? I'm actually surprised as hell by the Peggy Hill vanilla claim.

This is why I'm unconvinced by the the results Oversoul said he gained by the reaction test.

If

Oversoul is town, I just can't be surprised if scum moved quickly onto him thinking similarly to me, and those votes accumulated onto him pretty damn fast. This does not necessarily mean that Nero is scum and his scumbuddies tried coming to his rescue, but it could mean they they thought they saw someone with a PR and wanted to quickly put their suspicions onto him.

Maybe I was the only one who thought this though. Derp.

I want to reply to a few things said by others later on when I have more time.

P-edit: Viscera is saying they sheeped Michel or something like that.

[Jal]

When he unvoted Seanald, I don't think that's something he'd have done as scum. Why not let him hang?

Also, when MattP conducted an ISO of Seanald midway through D1 when both their wagons were building up, he listed "Seanald" as a null-scum read and generally didn't have much to say. I feel that if the MattP/Oversoul slot were scum, he'd have pushed the Seanald counter-wagon further along.

I don't really care for how quickly that bandwagon formed.

VOTE: Seanaldo

Still scum.

[Jal]

@Mod: My vote is on Seanald, not Oversoul

Oversoul should be at L-2, not L-1. I don't have a lot of time to write as I'm going out to dinner in a few minutes, so I'll answer Paid Pyro's question when I get back and comment some more.

[Jal]

Paid Pyro

:

JAL, what make Seanald more suspect than oversoul? Both have similarities in common. Both slots pushed the pm/bb lynches, both have claimed vanilla.

I believe Oversoul is scummy by association relative to Seanald. There's nothing that screams "scum" about Oversoul's motivations to me today, whereas I don't think I've ever seen a genuine pro-town motivated post written by Seanald. Seanald was all over the place D1 on the PM lynch, by attacking people both on

and

off the wagon while simultaneously writing conflicting posts speculating PM to be scum one moment and town the next. That, and after posting quite frequently D1, Seanald has remained relatively silent D2 while the town almost exclusively has their focus glued onto Oversoul - which pings my scumdar once again.

KMD

:

Besides your vote count analysis, what else has Nero done to make you think he's scum?

[Jal]

The PR plan isn't that great and I feel like continuing to drag out the debate will just hurt town at his point. Lastsurvivor becomes even more townie by pointing out how it is wasting time.

Nero

:

but not by himself? What the hell?

Did you seriously not post for a couple of days only pinpoint something I said along with standing your ground against the big bad Oversoul?

I already explained. Read the thread.

What is your issue with me, exactly?
If not for Oversoul, who else would you be voting for? (I admit, I'll yuk if you say "Jal" or "you")

RBT

: Are you saying GNR is scummy for his lack of content, then?

Seanald is still missing in action I see.

[Jal]

@Pyro: Can you quote what you're talking about?

First posts I think I've seen from RBT that I like lol.

Oh dear lord. Really?

(Translation: Don't trust Oversoul at this point. He is trying to trick us.)

He hadn't even posted between your comments. How is he trying to trick us?

[Jal]

If OS is scum, then Kmd is definitely scum based on OS's last post and Kmd's defense of OS.

KMD is a big fat town read in my books, and he'd be town in that situation too. Scum KMD isn't likely to link himself so closely to his partner.

I'll hop onto the "GNR lynch today and a Nero lynch tomorrow" plan. I think Nero is just trying to fabricate excuses to find me scummy to make it

appear

like he's scum hunting. He knows I'm not in any danger of being lynched, so calling suspicion onto me but not really involving himself beyond that is a pretty safe bet. He also can't come up with anything on his own to call me scummy on.

GNR is a relative unknown, and I'd rather bet on him than someone I have a slight town read on.

VOTE: GNR

[Jal]

"Slight town read on" is in regards to Oversoul

[Jal]

Looking at the lynch of GNR, it comes to pass because, Seanald convinces Oversoul, kmd, Arugula, ckd and jal to switch to GNR, creating an alternative wagon to Oversoul in posts #1330-1342. This focusses all anti-Oversoul lynch into a single wagon. @ckd, jal: you were voting seanald before the switch. Did you notice it was seanald who organized the GNR wagon, and did this influence your feelings towards that wagon?

A second good lynch would be Seanald, partially due to connections to Oversoul, partially through individual tells. Starting with the connections: Seanald was almost solely responsible for organzing the GNR lynch at the end of day 2, which saved Oversoul. Oversoul did something similar for Seanald during day 1, when he unvoted JAL in post #726, immediately after Seanald claimed, while strongly implying that he was unvoting Seanald:

With my vote on Seanaldo going nowhere at the end of D2, I put my vote on someone who I thought had the greatest possibility of being scum between the competing wagons. Regardless, both wagons had scummy players pushing them (Seanald and Nero), which is making me believe both wagons were probably on town.

You have a great point: Seanald certainly did arrange that lynch by trying to get everyone

on the Nero wagon

onto the GNR lynch. Hmm, coincidence? Nero was the most capable counter wagon nearing the end of D2 until everyone switched over. I know I would have ended up voting for Nero if everyone didn't leave the wagon by the time I finally got off my duff to read the thread and post. I think they're both scum together.

Also, Oversoul is associated with Seanald and not the other way around.

[Jal]

A few things:

I don't believe what Nero said today in response to the KMD kill is a scum slip. In fact, I think most scum slips are pure bullshit. However, his response to the relentless pressuring by CKD is scummy as hell. He just sort of shrugs it off and tries to appear nonchalant which looks like a calculated attempt to not flail. Eck.

VOTE: Nero Cain

You're scum Nero. Deal with it.

[Jal]

I agree with you that that's what happened. However, this doesn't explain Oversouls motivation when posting his reaction test. He could either be
Town, hoping to catch mafia by looking at the reactions he got, or
Mafia, hoping to get information on whether there is an SK and who might have that role.

Swords of Omen said it best in post 1052. It was pretty clear by the kill flavours used, that the kill couldn't be anything but a scum kill unless you didn't pay attention and were blind. I

really

doubt it is #2. Being that the SK is a singular role, what would a mafia player hope to gain from point-blank asking about it anyway?

[Jal]

Town: CKD, Arugula, PM, Oversoul, Lastsurvivor (you stubborn bastard), and Paid Pyro.

Keep deflecting and trying not to flail, Nero. Yo goin' down.

[Jal]

@Lucky

how do you see LS as town, going into the night I had LS as scum but have been too lazy to build a case. But now that it is brought up i will be posting my case on him.

Really? I feel like he's been transparent in his motivations. His thought process overlooking the game, along with the placement and timing of his votes are townie to me - particularly on the issue of OS vs GNR vs Nero. His cases on people also lean more towards the Lastsurvivor town meta I'm used to, in that he

has

built up cases.

Why do you think he's scum and what did Lowman think about it in your QT?

@MichelSableheart

I agree that from the kill flavour, it was clearly a mafia kill, as said before. Given that, how would reactions to the question of that kill coming from an SK give OS information on who's mafia? I'm really not seeing how the question helps OS town. For mafia, OTOH, an SK is more of a priority. Any info they can get wrt that role is a bonus.

As I said before, I don't think it was an accurate reaction test and I agree with you in that regard. It was more anti-town than anything since what he did was a huge distraction. I'm not seeing the mafia motivation for it though. It was clear the kill came from mafia and not a sk, so

why would scum-OS be looking to find a non-apparent serial killer?

@Oversoul

Ya. Pretty much no way Michel is scum after that exchange.

What about that exchange made Michel town?

[Jal]

Wich is pants on head retarded. If you were a mislynch why would scumSean go out of his way to lead a mislynch on a non threat like GNR? No, Jal has made it crystal clear that he thinks you and Sean are connected so stop pretending like he hasn't.

Though I'm pretty sure Sean never said anything like "hey guys get off of Nero!"

Not in so few words.

kmd just switch to GNR, theres more support for his lynch.anyone not voting vote on GNR.

oversoul, you as wel switch to GNR

Take a stance lucky vote the GNR scum.

To clarify, I believe Lucky indicated he would vote for Nero if given enough support. Really though, once KMD jumped over the wagon was lost. Seanald himself already provided the answer to the first half of this quote. Also, nice deflection there.

[Jal]

See? Its shit like this. Your wagon was bigger than mine yesterday. I looked though Sean's ISO and I swear I can not find him saying anything to the extent of "get off the Nero wagon" Now he DID tell everyone to switch over to GNR, dismantling BOTH of our wagons but I think its a far cry Jal's "trying to get everyone on the Nero wagon onto the GNR lynch" Can one of ya'll post this?

Seanald telling people to go over to GNR didn't dismantle Oversoul's wagon; only yours

[Jal]

And that is the fault of Seanald... how? He wasn't trying to get specific individuals off of Oversoul's wagon onto GNR's. He was specifically

trying to get people off of

your wagon

onto the GNR one

.

Nero, you've gone from making a determined attempt to not flail, to full on flailing action and you need to die.

[Jal]

Nero, you've only been attacking my words, letting people decide for themselves on who to lynch. If you actively *tried* get others to see your point of view or see the "scumminess" in my posts maybe I wouldn't have stalled at L-1 for long and I wouldn't be here. You didn't. You just answered when people asked you a question. You never went out of your way to try and lynch me. You're playing a reactive game.

That is a really great point. If anyone is on the sidelines about this lynch, just look at this please. Nero's playstyle has been almost entirely reactive rather than proactive for most of the game.

[Jal]

So essentially, this looks like it has come down to an information lynch vs a probable scum lynch. I don't see why Nero's lynch wouldn't equally be as informational as Oversoul's though. Either way, if the person who gets lynched is town, the other person will probably be shot tonight or lynched tomorrow. So what's going on here?

Actually, if either flips scum at the end of today, then the other will probably be night killed because they will basically be confirmed town as there's no possibility they are scum together.

With both of these things in mind, Oversoul and Nero, please make some final reads before the day ends.

@OS: I don't understand your motivation behind your FoS on Sword. Can you please clarify?

[Jal]

I would love to have a Seanald lynch, but I don't think that's happening today.

[Jal]

Why do you think he is comparatively the right lynch today?

Speaking of cases, Lucky I'd still like to see your case on scum-Lastsurvivor.

[Jal]

@MSH

I got that feeling from votes such as these.

vote: Oversoul

your flip will tell me so much. If you are scum CKD is scum with you. Im about 80% sure. If not I have a null on CKD.

Yeah, I suppose Michel is right. Oversoul is the mastermind of the plan.

VOTE: Oversoul

I trusted you but we need more information than we got.

[Jal]

@MOD: LowMan's vote is no longer on Nero

I would still like some reads regardless of your caring status.

[Jal]

Busy with courses starting up again. I'll write a catch-up post after I'm finished them today, but it won't be for another 12ish hours. Sorry.

[Jal]

Sorry still really busy and I was gone most of yesterday unexpectedly. I'll get off early today though and I'll make response then.

Lucky, since I'm one of the ones who has been pushing for his lynch, I'll tell you why when I get back.

[Jal]

Actually, axe the Seanald dealio. I think he was scummiest in Day 1 because he was going back and forth on PM's wagon

while not actually taking off his vote

and he was attacking people both on and off the wagon. I also felt like he was lining up lynches with his threat to BabyBlue following Pm's self-vote, and his lack of response to ANYTHING I've said to or about him felt scummy also. But since D1, I really can't pinpoint anything scummy I think he has done on his own.

He was moving all those votes off Nero, but I can't call him scum on it. At least not without a flip of some form and some more discussion about it. Just like how I think Oversoul has associated scummy ties to Seanald, I view Seanald being scummy in association to Nero.

I think I'd much rather a Nero lynch over a Seanald one. I'd rather a Seanald lynch if the scenario came down to him and OS. If that makes sense.

He is also right about one thing:

The OS/Nero case needs to be squashed today

@Lucky: I viewed Lastsurvivor's switch on and off the two wagons yesterday as being unsure town. I know I've been in that situation where I've voted for/thought someone was/called out someone who I thought was scum only to have a bunch of people jump on whom I think are scummy and wanting to back out of it/rethink it. I think it's a normal reaction.

@Lastsurvivor: Was Nero scum in that game you played with him where you thought he flailed?

I get the feeling Arugula is voting for Oversoul now because his lynch is beginning to look almost inevitable or feels it is now needed.

@Arugula: Why do you think scum aren't going to touch Oversoul?

[Jal]

Why would they? He's almost getting lynched every day. There is no need to waste a NK on him.

Except vs scum.

Nope. NC is one of the many players who makes me question flailing as any form of tell.

I may have entirely thought you were suggesting otherwise. What game is this?

[Jal]

@Lowman: And the fact that they came at each other relatively quickly into D2, especially when there would have been no reason for them to megabus each other.

[Jal]

Also, it only really works one way. If OS flips scum Nero is probably town.

[Jal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VysVxz2_rQg#t=0m37s

[Jal]

@

Porchaz:

And this might be the last time I ever get to do this...

Why might it be your last time?

@

OS: Are you serious? I figured you'd hammer yourself if you were a third role such as that or vengeful.

[Jal]

RBT was fried by lightning...it was PM's Kill..
also notice how Brain was nowhere to be found? Scum didn't kill last night...probably jailkept or r/b'd:

The flavour in the story makes it read like it's a PM kill but the actual death doesn't say anything about lightning. I guess it could mean they both tried to target the same person but the rest of the flavour is strange, especially about the Brain not on television - that certainly sounds more like a r/b or jailkeep or (maybe) a no kill actually. Either way, something funky went down last night.

I'm pretty suspicious of all the players that were calling OS obvtown,like they knew.

Then why aren't you voting for the people who actually did? Y'know, like Seanald?

VOTE: Nero

[Jal]

Sorry guys, I've been busy. I'll get back to this later tonight.

[Jal]

All right. Let's try and do this.

CKD is definitely town. I don't know how there's still doubt about this, and now especially with that claim. Oversoul's new slot is town too. I don't see why the mod would give him a different alignment (and the conflict his reads would have, oh brother), and this slot has mostly been town anyway.

I tried looking up MSH's claim. Would it be considered more of a flavor cop sort of dealio? I believe it though, and the wiki seems to indicate it's a mostly pro-town role. Unfortunately, I don't see what we can do with it for the time being. I'm leaning more town than scum with Michel, but even if he is scum, it may lead to him outing a scum buddy, or if someone flips with different initials than given anyway.

I guess this means Seanald actually is town, unless MSH is lying or the roles don't match the names. Either way Oversoul and CKD are right - Seanald is

not

the lynch for today.

@Oversoul:

Anyway, Michel. I was saying that PM probabaly got Roleblocked despite his attempt to kill RBT and there being no additional flavor.

I definitely think

something

happened in regard to someone using their powers, but I don't think it was due to PM being roleblocked. I don't see any reason why scum would try and kill RBT. RBT wasn't a threat, was suspected by quite a few people, and he was vanilla - so scum wouldn't have offed him due to being a PR. I just went through his ISO and I can't even figure out who exactly he even suspected - except maybe Paid Pyro, but that wasn't pushed meaningfully.

I can't quite describe it, but his posts seem to be fencesitting crap and he never really takes a stand on anything definitively.

I thought Lastsurvivor acted very similarly to CKD, at least in regard his unsureness of your lynch. What about Lastsurvivor's behavior differentiates him from CKD's townness?

I'd also like a link to a town Amrun game you've been with her in that I think you're referring to. Do you two usually fight in games?

@Michel

:

Also, I just realized: if mafia received fakeclaims, wouldn't that be noted in Nero's rolepm? The more I think about it, the more likely it seems that scum may not have received fakeclaims after all.

Are you saying that when he flipped we would have seen that he was given a fakeclaim, or that Nero would have used a fakeclaim if he actually

did

have a fakeclaim? I've mainly been in open games so I'm a little clueless: How common/uncommon is it for mods to give fakeclaims to scum anyway?

Regardless, it didn't even make sense for Nero to

not

fakeclaim in the end to at the very least maybe draw out a cc. I think D4 went by a lot faster than he probably planned.

@Peregrine:

What are your thoughts about the current bandwagons?

Also, I will totally lynch your ass again if you play the apathy/away card this game and we're both still around near endgame.

@Amrun

: Why vote Peregrine over Poro? What about Nero's flip made him the next viable lynch?

You say Peregrine is going after weak players as your main point, but a quick look at your ISO reveals you've gone after PM, Babyblue, Peregrine, Seanald and RBT - all of whom I consider weak players this game and are the majority of your votes. You can also argue that your vote for Oversoul was weak itself given the circumstances. I don't see how that particular point makes him scum anymore than it does make you scum, really.


I need to rethink some things with the confirmation of Seanald's name. Haven't had time yet, but I want to reread some stuff in D1 and D2. I still think scum jumped all over that Oversoul reaction test thinking he was a PR and I want to see who jumped on or held a vastly different opinion of Oversoul in D1 beforehand.

[Jal]

My initials are B.G.

@Lucky

: Who do you think I've cleared but said there was a chance they aren't really? I think I only really cleared CKD and OS.

If you're referring to Michel, I believe his role and I think he's most likely to be town based his prior play along with his claim. I was mainly responding to the doubt that's on him and how we can use his claimed role regardless if people think he's scum. I also believe Seanald is town based on this claim, because I personally

don't

believe MSH is lying about Seanald's name and I

do

believe names match the alignments based on our flips so far.

It doesn't even matter if I am wrong and CKD's hunch is right, though. I don't think there's a lot of motivation for a scum Michel to come out and confirm scumbuddy Seanald's name like that when there wasn't a lot of pressure on Seanald today with OS and CKD both saying he's not the right lynch - it wasn't going to happen. So I guess I've cleared Seanald too.

What do you think?

@Amrun

:

Do you not remember why I originally suspected Peregrine? He called out kdowns for voting "only newbies" in PMysterious and BabyBlue while ignoring that others (including myself) who were harder lynches had also done so. And you ignored several people I went after, including Nero Cain, Porochaz, and Oversoul. Also PV is a good player, even though he's active lurking in this game. In this game, I have coincidentally suspected some, but not all, of the weaker players - they can be scum too.

Fair enough on your first point, but no, I didn't ignore your other votes. I already said your vote for Oversoul was already weak in itself. You can say the same for your vote for Nero as well - because really, who

didn't

vote Nero yesterday? I just don't see it much as a scum tell and enough to vote for over Poro, especially with that case you just gave and you're right - weaker players can be scum too.

What are your other reads?

@CKD

:

LS, what happens when we all claim our initials and MS says "everyone is telling the truth"? nothing...i am not arguing that MS has this ability, I am not sure about his alignment...at least with my way, we will see if MS actually did something night 4...but I guess, if he wanted to lie, he could have said he got a dead person's initials one night to give him some breathing room.

Unless there are only two maf in the game, Nero's death doesn't necessarily mean that a scum-Michel would take over the kill duty. Based on Nero being a roleblocker, I really doubt he was the one sent to kill either.

You have to consider though: What if Michel doesn't say everyone is telling the truth?

We'll know the truth through flips in the end either way though.

[Jal]

I can't tell if Peregrine is being willfully or deliberately dense with that wiki link. Sigh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman:_ ... ted_Series


@CKD: By blocking another kill, do you mean through your BP ability or bodyguard?

[Jal]

A) There's no reason for mafia to have targeted RBT unless RBT was some grand threat. RBT had a lot of suspicion on him by mostly everybody and was a VT. As I pointed out, the only one RBT seemed to even mention was Pyro which he barely pushed.

B) Although Sword is correct with flavours, it's still off that lightning itself didn't make an appearance. I personally think something went on, and that could definitely had something to do with either CKD blocking/being shot at or another PR doing their thang.

C) CKD, am I right to understand that your bodyguard ability works as it says in the wiki? In all likelyhood, unless there is some doc or something, you haven't protected anyone personally otherwise you'd be dead.

Amrun, I think you still owe me reads.

[Jal]

Somehow that didn't really hit me until now fully. Urgh. So it could have been Oversoul.

[Jal]

Yeah, I'm an idiot.

[Jal]

I'm not arguing PM lied. I have been arguing against that. I don't think he was roleblocked either AS THERE IS NO REASON FOR MAFIA TO TARGET RBT. Why the hell mafia didn't roleblock PM with Nero looking obvious I do not know (OR PM KILLING NERO EITHER). However, I THINK ANOTHER POWER WAS INVOLVED FOR THE WEIRDNESS OF THE ENDING KILL FLAVOUR.

Explain this:

kdowns- town Inventor struck by lightening night 1

RBT: - Squidward Quiny Tentacles - Townie - Killed Night 3

[Jal]

Amrun vs Peregrine is just making noise, and if they *are*

both

scum they are doing a piss-poor job at it. I've played with a scum Peregrine and he played a pretty poor endgame which is similar to what I'm seeing here - except this is not endgame and he's been playing this way most of the game. So, I'm not sure if I am looking at a town Peregrine who just plays this way

all the time

or is just being poor scum. Urgh.

Either way, I have a hunch and would much rather an Amrun flip today, especially given she

still

has not answered my question regarding reads - which just utterly hits me in the gut as being scum not wanting to out anything post-flip.

@Oversoul

Given the game size, I am going to say 4 scum... At least 1 goon and we already have the roleblocker.

I've played a 14 man game that had 3 scum. To up it to 24 players and only have one additional scum feels like too little of a step.

[Jal]

Forgot:
VOTE: Amrun

[Jal]

Where the hell are Lucky and PP? I'm not letting them slip by with this slip business. I actually think it's super scummy that they called me out on it, but I'm obviously biased.

Paid Pyro stated he is V/LA until the weekend. To answer your other question, he's still leaning town to me. It's only been two days since Lucky last replied, so I suggest holding your horses. I wouldn't mind them answering your question about the slip, though. I'm not seeing much evidence of this game being multiball.

[Jal]

Are we just going to wait until we see if we get any replacements before doing anything about the name claims or what?

[Jal]

@Rach, I love ya, but you've got to stop outing when you have some-sort PR like that.

Yeah, Amrun's relative silence and still

no reads

definitely looks like scum.

With Porochaz' and RachMarie's names unlikely scum, that leaves Amrun, Peregrine and Sword as scumcandidates. Willing to join an Amrun wagon.

I suggest the former scum read (Peregrine) rather than the latter (Sword) based on votes today to look up on tonight. Either way, I suggest looking up more controversial players (Peregrine, Lastsurvivor, Pyro) tonight, Michel.

[Jal]

The only difference I see in Lastsurvivor's play is that he's not having wall arguments and calling people dense. And by people I mean me, and by arguments I mean arguments with me. Very odd indeed.

And he does it as either alignment.

[Jal]

OUTPUT: My call for the scumteam is you, Porochaz, and one of {Sword_of_omens, paid pyro, jal, cheery dog, lastsurvivor}. My preference in that list is lastsurvivor - but I feel pretty confident that lynching down that list will eventually yield all of the scum.

Thar be scums in here, but not LS.

[Jal]

Uh, yeah just saw the PM. Today is Thursday.

Unless Rachel did her thang that

really did

make us all safe, I am clueless why there aren't any kills for today then?

[Jal]

Quick post. On vacation.

The whole commuter thing probably means Michel doesn't have any results for today Bleh.

@Paid Pyro: You were voting for Lastsurvivor before your move to Rachel yesterday due to Michel's results. Why are you voting for Seanald today?

Seanald, I haven't seen any evidence of a SK.

@LS: Eh that dickwad stuff you could probably say about Angelica, who was town. Real difference being Bender is definitely an ambiguous characterg (compared to Doug). I am wondering about the whole safe claim thing though. Nero didn't claim a character I believe, and Amrun claimed her own role. I would at least try to claim/ask to claim someone townier than fucking Bender. There's a chance they really did not get safe claims or scum have some townie looking roles among them.

[Jal]

[Jal]

I wanted to have some fun. I'm kinda running out of steam.

@OS: To clarify, do you think both Porochaz and Michel are scum?

[Jal]

@Paid Pyro: Can you answer my question?

Also, I guess the main difference in your example is that Michel cleared that as Seanald's real name - so we know it's not a safe claim at the very least.

I'll never understand you, Oversoul. My Rachel Maddow gif still applies.

[Jal]

The LS vote yesterday was for the "pinky" stuff. Possible Freudian slip.

I'm just wondering why you chose to vote Seanald today vs going back to Lastsurvivor. Do you still think Lastsurvivor is scum/scummy?

[Jal]

Dear lord. I feel like I just walked into a big ass pity party, and it's even making me feel sorry for myself. I'll dedicate some time later today or tomorrow or never.

Pass the alcohol Poro.

Where was your big update, Pere?

Paid Pyro, I'm guessing you're a VT?

[Jal]

Part of me just feels like baahing. Seanald is just right though, Goliath is bad ass if that's a true claim.

[Jal]

I have to agree with Rach and Lastsurvivor. Lowman and Lucky are a bunch of scummy lurksacks. See Newbie 1239 and Open 408. I don't know their meta beyond that. However, the masons claimed Beavis and Butthead. That seems very specific and I doubt the mod would have given mafia two names coupled like that. If there's significant doubt about the masons, we can just always get Michel to investigate them tonight.

Either way, I don't see the point of trying to lynch a claimed mason right now.

[Jal]

I would at least like to see the mason replacement.

[Jal]

I'm leaning towards PP. Other than his continuous back-and-forth with Lastsurvivor, I don't feel like he's been doing much to actually help find scum after suspicion was cast on him. He isn't really voting for people because they're scummy. Rather, it seems to be either because of annoyance or just because (Poro).

@Rach

, why do you think he is least suspicious of the bunch? I find Poro least scummy of the three you named.

VOTE: Paid Pyro

I don't really know what the hell Pere is doing. I don't think voting a mason is scummy though - just stupid for today when the slot is not around and we have a name cop at our disposal.

[Jal]

Hey guys. During the night phase I decided to replace out of this and every other game I had on the site due to some difficult life circumstances. I already lined up a replacement before I left, but the player hadn't been entirely confirmed yet. I decided late last night to join the game again before the replacement was made official. That is why I haven't been posting.

First off, I'm Bobby Generic from Bobby's World.

Pere being what he claims throws me off. Kinda waiting for Michel to investigate someone who isn't what they claim to be.

@Lastsurvivor:

Explain to me how you go from saying this earlier:

On hindsight, the mass nameclaim probably isn't a good idea. All the VTs so far seem to be normal characters with no talents/abilities (Angelica, Peter Griffin), while PRs tend to be the opposite (Dexter, Pikachu). Catdog is the only exception, really. Names would probably out more than a few PRs.

To claiming Sailormoon as a

VT

. Your conclusion

doesn't make sense

with your claim at all. You should be some tiara throwing insta-killing scum machine given what you said. I know my Sailormoon.

I'm going to guess there's a name Godfather of sorts...a protagonist who's scum. I'm not going to vote PereV based on that speculation though.

Where does the speculation of a Godfather come from in a name claim?

@Sword

:

Nero let it slip that scum knew that KMD was a Power Role. So scum must have a role-cop. Or could it be possible that scum has a cop ability that nets them names AND abilities in one?
Possible...

Nero originally said that after being accused of being scum because KMD, his biggest scum advocate, was killed N2. It looks more likely he was just trying to save his ass to me. Either way, I don't think its really discernible what roles the scum have based on something scum said while under pressure.

What also worries me is that you are still alive. Why haven’t you been targeted for a kill yet?

I was under the impression CKD had been protecting Michel for the past two nights. Why would scum try to kill someone who has the possibility of being protected at all?

if i didn't know any better, i'd say LS just claimed scum buddies with Peregrine...

I do not see this. How do you draw this conclusion of them being buddies?

Sword, you are kinda doing the opposite of Pyro. This is the first day I've seen you ever come under pressure and suddenly you're very active. What gives?

[Jal]

Sword, point blank: Do you think MSH is scum or town?

Where is MSH anyway?

Not a real GF. But a GF in the sense that MSH will investigate them and get a strong protagonist and clear them.

Yeah I thought about it afterwards and that makes sense. We do have a cop ability in-game though, so there actually could be an investigative GF, although I question the likelihood of it due to its limitations. About your name claim thing, I just automatically assumed you were a VT from it rather than soft-claiming. I don't think you're much of a soft-claimer in the games I've been with you, wherein you've always been a PR (I think).

@Seanald, you need to latch off of Oversoul today. What are your thoughts on scum-poro claiming a role that we've already seen scum flip as? Don't think it's likely.

I'm in for a long-ass drive today, so I am going to look into Paranoia mafia.

I've been thinking of the poison thing. I don't think there are two mafia teams, but what are the chances of a third party of a game of this size though? Although, I don't know why they would target GNR. That whole day where RBT was the only one killed and with no flavoring doesn't make sense either. I feel like there's a different "element" in the game.

[Jal]

Sword, point blank: Do you think MSH is scum or town?

Where is MSH anyway?

Not a real GF. But a GF in the sense that MSH will investigate them and get a strong protagonist and clear them.

Yeah I thought about it afterwards and that makes sense. We do have a cop ability in-game though, so there actually could be an investigative GF, although I question the likelihood of it due to its limitations. About your name claim thing, I just automatically assumed you were a VT from it rather than soft-claiming. I don't think you're much of a soft-claimer in the games I've been with you, wherein you've always been a PR (I think).

@Seanald, you need to latch off of Oversoul today. What are your thoughts on scum-poro claiming a role that we've already seen scum flip as? Don't think it's likely.

I'm in for a long-ass drive today, so I am going to look into Paranoia mafia.

I've been thinking of the poison thing. I don't think there are two mafia teams, but what are the chances of a third party of a game of this size though? Although, I don't know why they would target GNR. That whole day where RBT was the only one killed and with no flavoring doesn't make sense either. I feel like there's a different "element" in the game.

[Jal]

Rach I think has been on every single wagon except for Pyro, right?

If scum have some awesome cool roles to deal with town, I'm not seeing it, not active roles at least, unless they've been total idiots and we've been seeing that with the GNR and RBT poisoning/kill. Who knows? If not a third party, I think we're looking at some of our claimed roles not being true then, because no one is fessing up to anything. I believe Oversoul, Seanald, MSH, and Poro are town. Sword is one of those players who disappears and I feel unsure about but

mostly

every time he talks I don't get scum tingling. I want him to expand beyond role composition though. So he's out of my scum picture.

I really don't care about the masons dilemma. I feel like they will solve themselves out. Either scum will eventually have to kill them, they will be investigated, or through poe we'll realize they can't be masons. They are out of my scum pool today.

This leaves me with RachMarie, Cherrydog, Pere, and Lastsurivor. I'll go more into this later. I need to ISO some people and still read Paranoia mafia.

Pedit: Seanald is right about third party not having to kill. I tried looking third party up on the wiki but I don't see any that would fit the bill though. Something is not adding up though, and I feel like it'll drive me crazy until the end of the game

[Jal]

I don't get why people are even clearing others based on their

claimed

name.

Super-busy. Will say more when I get home from class and work later tonight.

[Jal]

Given that no one has claimed/flipped a "bad guy" name on par to Mister Freeze, I don't think the roles are all that varied. We may have

a

godfather-type name scum, but I don't see there being more than one.

I think Sword is right on today's play. The decision best comes down to those not investigated vs lynching MSH himself in order to clear his investigations. I'm inclined towards MSH = town, though. Either way, I feel like MSH is going to be forced to reveal his alignment, similar to the masons and there's most likely scum in the noninvestigative pool.

Assuming MSH is town and his investigations have been true, we probably at the very least have 2-3 scum left, lynching from the set of people not already investigated without including the masons (Cherrydog, Sword, Lastsurvivor, me) is our best best. Even if he's scum and he's a role cop instead of a name cop, he most likely would have mainly sold-out a bunch of innocents of people he rolecopped, leaving the best course of action to

still

lynch from those not investigated. I really doubt a Scum-MSH would have cleared all his scum buddies above gaining the greater trust of the town when revealings initials.

Sword is more of a town read to me, and although I am put off my Lastsurvivor's Sailormoon VT claim ( ), I would rather lynch Cherrydog who is more of an unknown to me from the group.

VOTE: Cherrydog

[Jal]

We shouldn't be lynching MSH today, maybe tomorrow, but not today. *grunt*

and I also don't care if you lynch me, I only replaced in because I didn't feel that someone should have been modkilled for requesting replacement. I haven't actually gotten into this game much. *aaaahhh*

This may not exactly be ATE, but it is damn reminiscent of "I don't give a care" scum play I've seen before.

Meanwhile,
Vote: Seanald is better than others.

Why is Seanald a) a better vote than others? and b) a better vote over someone not investigated?

Also, masons will take care of themselves.

[Jal]

The slot has been just a big giant dud.

[Jal]

I've survived because I have no powers, and only a boring post restriction *grunt*

This has absolutely nothing to do with why a bandwagon hasn't seriously formed on you before today.

Also, I'll be on.

[Jal]

I've been mulling over a possible MSH lynch. I want to see what happens first tonight with CKD's protection gone.

[Jal]

Oversoul, I want your snapshot point of view on Lastsurvivor, Sword, Pere, and Rachmarie. I am getting super paranoid over having two town-aligned commuters.

[Jal]

Throw Seanald in there as well.

[Jal]

MSH I want you opinion too, if you're there.

[Jal]

What were your "results", Michel?

Indeed.

Meanwhile, you have to fix those pictures Oversoul, and explain what Seanald has to do with MSH.

[Jal]

Throwing a vote on Michel asap doesn't make you look any more protown, guys.

I'm amused at a Oversoul - shit = town equation (Pere version) I'm seeing here, though.

[Jal]

Jal: maybe, but I'm still doing it.

I was mainly referring to Pere after LS and Poro asked for a slow down.

Oversoul, don't take away my fun.

[Jal]

Let's work this out.

@MSH are you saying you got blocked or something? I don't understand. I would like an answer to Sword's question also, given the possibility of scum being in the non-investigative pool like I stated yesterday.

[Jal]

Do you think the masons are scum then?

[Jal]

Poro, are all your abilities one shot?

[Jal]

Yes. Why?

I was looking back at the deaths and the redirect one on particular seems like it may have has more than one use.

[Jal]

MSH come the fuck on.

[Jal]

Stop the argument walls. No one reads them.

We've got two mafia or two clears and a lynched scum, meaning we don't go into tomorrow with a possible MYLO situation. Win/win. Time to AFK for another three days, gentlemen.

[Jal]

Mod, if Michel was the last scum alive, could he use his Role Cop ability and kill on the same night?

You think MSH may possibly be the last scum? What is Lastsurvivor then? Because I think we're looking for at least two more given the size of this game. Only one if there's a third party, maybe. Even if you are right about Lastsurvivor

being something

, I think there's at least one more scummy scum.

well i thought for sure i would be the one not waking up this morning...

Why would you think you had any chance of dying last night, especially over someone like Oversoul if not the masons?

I thought a MSH scum flip meant the masons are town because I really didn't think of the possibility of otherwise if that were the case. That, and I've generally thought the masons were actually masons.

A shaky internet connection has made this take over an hour to post this. I'll be on later tonight once I get to another place.

[Jal]

I can't really explain why Lastsurvivor is the obvious choice mainly a gut reasoning and I feel like his interactions with all the flipped scum have been off. Hopefully I get more time and Ill go into this more but my mind is pretty made up, I can't really see anyone else being the scum except perhaps Pere but thats mainly based off of Amruns boner for him in the earlier days, I just ask the quesiton why the hell would Amrun run Pere that hard?

You've been on about Pere being possible scum since forever and you were the one who first brought up that Amrun and Pere were possibly busing each other hard. So, why the hell are you deciding to push LS now? I barely see anything about Lastsurvivor in your ISO either, except you accusing him of opportunistic bandwagoning D1 and something about confirming himself as scum in 1812 for trying to accuse you of something. Nothing really about him other than those few mentions, though.

You voted for Lastsurvivor after OS withdrew his vote, so I know you're not just copying him.

What I don't get is why "clear" me when people are already chomping at the bit to lynch me?

To clear a scum-Pere under heavy suspicion?

I'll give it to you though, that I did ask MSH to give priority to investigate you along with Paid_pyro and Lastsurvivor. But I don't get how that's so hard to possibly get.

[Jal]

There's one thing though. MSH was definitely bullshitting about investigating Seanald. It doesn't fit either way no matter which alignment Seanald is. Either Seanald is town and scum didn't need to investigate because he already claimed, or he's scum and.. why investigate him?

MSH initially cleared: Seanald, Poro, Oversoul v.2 and Rachel. MSH obviously investigated someone else, and not Seanald. Why clear Seanald though over the other person investigated? I guess the person could be dead, but why just not say that? That would still be 3 clears to "prove" his role to people.

[Jal]

This isn't going anywhere and Pere is always going to be a question mark. LS gives good reasoning to boot too.

VOTE: Peregrine

[Jal]

Oversoul, I swear you keep saying that every person being ran up is town, and then you proceed to vote for them. Why is Pere town to you? You initially said that you thought Lastsurvivor was scum, but then you withdrew your vote on him. Why?

P-edit: Pere, you basically just restated what I said D7 that there's probably one scum in the cleared pool and one out of it (considering a scum-Michel). So, yes, I agree.

[Jal]

Does that make you angry?

Uh, no?

It makes me frustrated with you being the biggest town read of mine. It's like those people who are found to be confirmed town (I know you aren't) in games, and they just don't really do anything afterwards. It makes me go, "WHHHHHY?"

What was your comment about coasting for the next three days after MSH flipped?

Mostly if MSH flipped town.

That hasn't happened, so either town-Oversoul or 2 man scumteam.

How is it either or?

[Jal]

@Sword

:

this looks like it could be a heads up to MS warning/reminding him not to fake a “results” finding for the night of the black-out.

Rach had already announced using her ability in-thread.

Thinking about this, given that MSH cleared Rach, scum knew what role Rach was and probably what happened/was going to happen already when Rach soft claimed to be using her ability the day prior. Only ones posting at the time (before the mod came back) were CKD, OS, me, Seanald, LS, and Rach. CKD had such an obvious town reaction of not knowing what was going on, and OS telling everyone to shut up seems like town trying to figure out what happened. Lastsurvivor gave no real reaction, except to comment on the mod starting the day early, so no town or scum indicator there.

Getting a minor scum read on Seanald though, for his first reaction was to try to imply that the only reason CKD took so long was to talk things over with scum buddies, while also saying he's town:

since your alone, I find it strange that you took so long to send in a submission. I almost think your 100% town but why take so long other than to talk it over with scum buddies. Just sayin.

I feel like he is almost... blaming CKD?
Other than that, similar to LS, he gives no reaction

to the event itself

, though.

[Jal]

For simplicity's sake, let's look at the OS wagon.

Oversoul (5)

Nero Cain

, Porchaz,

MichalSableheart

, VisceraEyes,

Amrun

Porochaz hasn't really mentioned Nero at all, but hasn't justified his OS vote well (yesterday he had an excuse I guess).
MSH is being genuine I think.
VE...ah...nothing really from him. Nothing about Nero, nothing justifying his vote.
Amrun's been pushing OS hard and defending Nero. See this post.

So, in order of most likely to be Nero's partner to least: [Amrun/VE/Poro/MSH

This

is

a pretty good catch.

[Jal]

you could just realize that your seanald case will end up being a hodge podge of scummy actions and myslynches but nothing that really leads to anything sensical.

Preemptly defending yourself, eh?

Has anyone here played with Seanald before?

[Jal]

I don't think he can use the double vote on a different day anyway.

@OS, yeah I went through his games earlier and noticed that. Bleh.

[Jal]

@Sword,

most likely a blackout ability...

You said this before Rach said what her ability was. Why did you think someone used a blackout ability?

[Jal]

@Sword

: Yeah, I guess that does... make sense. This is my first game that someone has had a commuter or similar ability - it just wasn't my first or second thought.

We could go for Seanald instead?

I'd be up for this alternative.

[Jal]

Well, maybe my second thought.

[Jal]

only problem with that is, it means theres only 1 scum left. which im not sure makes sense given the size of the game. I've been thinking this over much more recently but there probably is a 3rd party as well, survivor, sk something

Oh, I've

definitely

thought about it since some of the actions in this game don't make sense from a scum point of view at the very least (GNR's poisoning, killing RBT). It also would explain the roundabout town reads. I can't find a third that would match this though.

Seanald is not scum MSH definitely tried to get a mislynch through on his ass with his investigation post flip.

I'm not sure if I'm following you here. MSH cleared Seanald early. MSH was trying to get a mislynch on the masons, that is obvious. Beyond that, I don't know what else scum had hoped to achieve with that false investigation result, except perhaps to have MSH around a night longer. If you're trying to say the point of D8 was for MSH to go down and incriminate Seanald post-flip, that doesn't much make sense either and the same could be argued for Peregrine as well.

I

really

wouldn't be surprised if scum thought that their little masons=scum gambit would actually pull through. Why else would MSH actually come out with a scum result like that? It

almost

could have worked, as even you voted for Lowman for a few moments, and others may have too if you didn't then hammer. If he thought he was actually going down, he could have continued his song and dance regarding not seeing his results pm indefinitely until one of us hammered when it started getting obvious. Instead, do you really think he would intentionally give us essentially

two

potential clears prior to the hammer and then scum would

kill

one over night just to eliminate any possibility of otherwise? I don't think so.

[Jal]

See Jal, this is the kind of thing that bothers me about you..little things like this..you even said in thread that day (before I made mention of the blackout ability) that you thought Rach had something to do with it by protecting all of us. So to say that you didn’t think of it seems off..
And then it looks like you caught yourself by following up with:

What the hell are you even talking about? I had

just said

this has been my first game that someone has had a commuter or similar ability. How does that seem off? Before Rach announced her role, I believe I thought that she was some sort of mass doctor role which I had seen in some other game I think on this site. It's not like I have some stupid ass role which would make it clear what happened. Me coming back into the thread shortly afterwards and saying "maybe my second thought" was because I remembered I was in some PYP game where the role was a possibility, but no one had taken it, so I probably at least was

aware

of the possibility.

I really don't care about these little baseless suspicions and comments you've been making towards me starting yesterday. I thought we had definitely gotten scum yesterday no matter what MSH flipped? Call the fucking police - probably so did most people, except for you apparently. I don't even why you're having an attitude about Seanald and I talking about the possibility of thirds. If you don't think there is one? Fine - say so. Why the hell do you have a problem with discussing it anyway? Shove off.

Do your Seanald case. Vote for either of us, I don't care. We're in this stupid back and forth with each other calling practically everyone a town read, and everyone thinks they're right. I just don't care anymore. Someone has to be lynched to just end this. If no one will hammer Pere, then I will hammer LS if a Seanald lynch gains no momentum either.

[Jal]

Seanald, I really don't care what you think.

Nero similarly picked up on these weirdly stupid things about me and it's all bullcrap.

[Jal]

I'm still looking at a Pere lynch today. I want to type up and go over some things either later tonight or tomorrow before L-2ing.

[Jal]

Been really busy with the holiday weekend and work and haven't really had time to start doing what I've wanted to do until now. Never thought about a no lynch, but I agree with it and it means there will be one kill tonight not on a confirmed town, either. I don't see there being just one scum left given the size of this game unless there's some third separate win-con faction which there has been no indication of.

VOTE: No lynch

Seanald, did you just try say I'm scum by calling me the mist from Lost? Jesus Christ.

[Jal]

Oversoul, Sword is asking you to verify your post restriction, not if you are a power role. After two infractions your vote shouldn't count and you've typed a lot rather than post pictures today. Have you gotten any infractions?

We are voting sword tomorrow.

What even about his post makes you say that?

[Jal]

I guess we'll see in the vote count either way.

[Jal]

Oversoul, even if we get scum today our best play for tomorrow would still be to no-lynch. Why do you think it's better to vote someone today vs tomorrow?

[Jal]

Erm, if you can post that in pictures at all.

[Jal]

I don't get the part what Seanald has to do with you being given a vest.

[Jal]

I feel like we're playing Pictionary with a dog.

[Jal]

The

only

fathomable reason I can see you still being alive today is to protect Seanald. If you are still around tomorrow, like you're so hoping to be, color me unsurprised.

[Jal]

She is being bitchy this day for no reason.

I think the snark for your little vest dealio which Poro cleared up is well deserved.

What I find weird about this is that MSH said he investigated you earlier so scum obviously knew what role you were. Knowing that you can investigate, I can't conceive why scum would keep you alive

[Jal]

Also, you realize we really can't just simply "test you out," right?

Sword, once we get a vote count his post restriction should be cleared either way I think.

[Jal]

Did you investigate Nero N1? Please answer this one.

[Jal]

I wonder if we need 5 people to no-lynch.

I didn't investigate him that day. Like I said. I was limited. I wanted Pere Lynched so the last person had to make any decisions on their own. When you guys were like "hehe we don't like OS" that's when I claimed. I promise I'll answer any and all questions you have tomorrow. I do not want to take a chance with Farside.

You replaced into that slot. You couldn't personally have investigated Nero even if you wanted to.

No one was not liking you. People either disagreed with you or were frustrated that they couldn't understand you. There is a difference. I agree with Poro that your power doesn't add up.

Why do you think you'll be alive tomorrow anyway?

[Jal]

I've seen some mods require more people to no-lynch.

In post 2878 Oversoul assumed he'd still be alive for LYLO to fuck it up even though he was a top town read. Now he has claimed a power role which he has earlier hinted he'll be able to utilize soon, and is asking people to delay their questions for tomorrow under the assumption he'll still be alive. I want to know why he assumes he'll still be alive to delay answering questions until tomorrow given the state of the game.

[Jal]

But it wasn't

~specific~

. Yeah, I'm probably a dumbass.

[Jal]

He assumed he was going to be alive tomorrow before shit hit the fan.

[Jal]

^ no ones listening to the shit your trying to fling jal

Sword has a realllll good point

She is being bitchy this day for no reason.

I think the snark for your little vest dealio which Poro cleared up is well deserved.

What I find weird about this is that MSH said he investigated you earlier so scum obviously knew what role you were. Knowing that you can investigate, I can't conceive why scum would keep you alive

Thanks for agreeing with me for the "shit I'm trying to fling" Seanald.

[Jal]

Scum probably were afraid he would clear or incriminate someone. If he were able to get Pere lynched today, then in Lylo there may have been an additional clear or another scum outed which would have made tomorrow easier.

Oversoul said everyone else he investigated were already dead, so no one but Seanald and Pere have been checked out. Taking a quick look at his ISO, I really can't figure out who he investigated apart from those two. All of us were still alive on the day MSH was lynched (and we weren't investigated), and he seemed undecided as to whether MSH or masons were the right choice, so I gather he investigated RachMarie the night prior.

Aside from that, I don't think knowing past investigations will help unless he was lying.

Be back later. I'm tired.

[Jal]

Poro, I don't see why Oversoul would lie about Pere at that time. He hadn't been gunning for Pere most of the game. He had 2 votes Day 9 and used it on Lastsurvivor. The only way I can conceive he's lying is if he wanted to "make up" for the mislynch of Lastsurvivor, which I doubt. You seem to believe his investigation of Seanald - why not Pere?

[Jal]

Busyish until tomorrow.

i'm pretty certain OS was banking on Poro getting NK’d last night. Poro was probably as close to conf town as anyone could be in this game.

Pretty sure he thought he was going to die N10 given his hard bread crumbs, and the whole vest dealio was a last minute ditch effort attempt to divert the kill. By the time Poro corrected him on the vest, it was pretty obvious he thought he was going to die tonight when soon after he outed and claimed his role.

If that right there isn’t a set up for a post scan for his ability, then I don’t know what is.

I'm not seeing what you're seeing here. Also, Oversoul's ability requires him to choose a quote and see if the person were lying or not. We hadn't even started mass claiming yet. There was nothing yet from you to actually test.

He stated that he thought Jal was last of the scum team but was unsure so he might have had his small doubts about Poro as well.. More than likely scum would have killed Poro or Jal over me.
The only reason why OS admitted to Seanald’s innocence is because we still had him as a very likely scum candidate. He didn’t admit to mine yet, because it was an ace up his sleeve. I wasn’t in danger of being lynched yet, and I was an unlikely kill target…look at his interactions with me in the last day..he calls me his only townread besides his 100% on Seanald.. he was still unsure of Poro ..

On D9 you were surprised you weren't night killed for pushing MSH so hard. I don't get the 180 here. There is no reason you would be least likely to be killed tonight relative to two others whom town had more suspicion on. Your reasoning doesn't make sense. There is literally no reason why Oversoul did not bread crumb hard on you being "town" instead of a "town read" and lie by saying everyone else was dead. We would see his flip and see otherwise.

[Jal]

You are also saying that Oversoul confirmed Seanald, in theory making him confirmed town once Oversoul died, but scum killed Oversoul instead because.......they wanted to confirm Seanald as town?
That doesn't make sense to me.

And that Oversoul actually confirmed you also while we were all looking the other way? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to investigate Poro whom he's been chasing all game. And when he was breaking his PR, shouldn't he just have said you were town?

Oversoul asked me point blank if i was town..and i answered that i was...why would he not investigate that post. it leaves no wiggleroom whatsoever as to my alignment. I already explained why he wouldn't out me during the PR break. He was trying to ensure a town win.

I'm not seeing what you're seeing here. Also, Oversoul's ability requires him to choose a quote and see if the person were lying or not. We hadn't even started mass claiming yet. There was nothing yet from you to actually test.

My post stating that "Yes, i am town." was all he needed to investigate. Again, that would give him my alignment, 100% .

You're saying that he was setting up a situation for you to be investigated the next night, correct? Because I was taking "post-investigation" from you to mean he already made an investigation on you.

Regardless, there is nothing to point to that you

actually were investigated

the night after or at any point. Rachel used mass commute the next night which meant no investigation. Also, I'm pretty sure I'm wrong on him investigating Rachel N7 - as the next day was when Oversoul said Seanald = Town so it must have been him. Pere obviously came next. I can maybe buy that he was setting people up to make certain statements (although you were a town read of his, so I have no idea why he would even want to investigate you), but not even taking all of that into account, there is

still

no reason for Oversoul to lie at the end of yesterday by saying everyone else he investigated were dead. As I pointed out, he obviously thought he was going to die yesterday.

Yeah. What you're saying doesn't really add up.

[Jal]

Writing a post which should be finished by later tonight. No one quick vote shit all.

[Jal]

I doubt Oversoul would have wasted an investigation on Seanald..I'm pretty certain his predecessor was the one that investigated him...OS only stated the Seanald= town because everyone was still looking at seanald as a lynch candidate...
anyways, we are getting off point...

right now, this moment,
Who do you think is scum?

If Oversoul's predessor had investigated Seanald at an earlier point, then Oversoul sure didn't leave shit all for bread crumbs most of the game. He didn't put Seanald on his town list in post 1813. In post 2589 he said he didn't know if Seanald is scum. It was only until the day of MSH's lynch did Oversoul say Seanald = The Town. There is no motivation for Oversoul to suddenly put Seanald as town on the day we were mainly only concerned with MSH.

You can keep pushing you were investigated as a way to clear yourself, but the only way that your scenario works is if Oversoul lied about his other investigations being dead and you had been magically investigated earlier on before we had even mass claimed.

You're currently at the top of my scum list.

Haven't really gotten a scum feel out of Poro most of the game. The only thing that makes me suspicious is that there's the the possibility Oversoul was killed last night because Oversoul commented on confirming Poro's role later on and scum may have wanted make sure that didn't happen. However, Poro has proven their role and I just don't think scum would have two similar roles on their side.

There is also Oversoul's death to consider. I doubt a lone scum would kill Oversoul, as it would prove they're guilty once he flipped and end the game. Scum have purposely sacrificed Pere. This makes me think a) scum were worried Oversoul would investigate overnight and find their partner or confirm a town and b) scum are in a good enough position that they believe they can make it in 3-man LYLO without Pere. B points to you, as Poro is probably #2 on most people's Pere's scum-buddy-list just after me. He has faced more suspicion than you, who has virtually faced none for the past few game days.

I also didn't care for when you started doing these little suspicions of me and making it look like the things I was saying were scummy even

after

you gave me a mostly favorable review after looking at my ISO and VCs.

[Jal]

I just realized this thread is up. I'll get to this when I get home.

[Jal]

I'm feeling sick as crap with a stomach flu or or something. Brief reply I never got to until I get better hopefully by tonight to make my final points.

on my phone...
Oversoul can only lie detect on odd nights...so being scared he would lie detect to find a scum buddy makes no sense...
and Poro cant be number 2 on most wanted scum list...he's pretty much conf town based on mechanics...
this basically comes down to me and you...

No one except Oversoul knew the limitations of his power. He refused to be specific about it. Don't argue it like it was common knowledge before his flip. There was a decent reason for scum to be worried that Oversoul had the ability to either clear a townie or check them.
You'd think Poro would be pretty clear (at least their role) after giving Oversoul the double vote, but it didn't stop derpy Seanald and Oversoul from suspecting Poro D10 moreso than they did you (post 2883, post 2934).

Be back later.

[Jal]

As I mentioned yesterday in post 3067, I don't believe Poro is scum and nothing has really changed my opinion. Poro being scum would count on the mod giving two back-up roles to scum and Poro for some reason giving the double vote to Oversoul instead of Pere or using it at a prior time.

Additionally, given that the scum team apparently had an inventor role of their own, there's no real reason for scum-Poro to take kdub's role instead of waiting for something better, such as KMD or PM's role really for the extra shot. There's nothing much worthwhile for scum-Poro here. A cop and redirector ability (according to how it works) doesn't seem that useful to scum and Pere already had the ability to vest someone, so that didn't matter much. The only thing really worthwhile for scum is the double vote, which again, Poro gave to town. It just doesn't add up to something scum would do.

There are really three things that make me convinced of Sword scum.

1.

The lynching of Lastsurvivor over Peregrine

Sword doesn't review Pere this day even though he was the one of the two main wagons. His entire analysis and read of Pere is based on MSH's associations with him without Sword actually ISOing Pere himself in post 2777. He clears Peregrine based on MSH, and fails to really delve into the associations he had with others in the game while doing so, except for himself and one comment about scum probably being in a group MSH mentioned. Scum can find it difficult to look past the scumminess of their partners when giving a read and lie, making it easier to clear someone based on subjective associations than actual actions the person has taken themselves. This is further evident by how he tries to use my vote on Pere in post 2854 as a further reason not to vote for him and hammer Lastsurvivor instead.

Even when the wagons were clearly between Lastsurvivor and Pere toward day's end, he still fails to review Pere or even suggest another wagon even though he called Lastsurvivor "most likely town" in post 2786. This was hardly a last minute lynch as there were about three days to go before the deadline and it was on a Monday, so there was no reason to end the day early if he didn't like the wagons. The only thing was, Oversoul looked like he was about to switch wagons if no one went on to hammer Lastsurvivor. His move to hammer looks like it was to prevent an alternative switch of wagons and hammer onto Pere.

As a note, before this day Sword really drove home the point that Pere shouldn't be cleared based on MSH clearing him, either because Pere could easily have been Ren from another show who wasn't a clear cut good guy or that MSH gave him an easy "out" in his claim.

2.

Association with MSH and Pere

Sword doesn't really mention Pere meaningfully until the later days starting around post 1969 where he said he could possibly vote for Pere. He repeats this again in post 2225. In both cases, he doesn't vote for Pere, but this is when he starts pushing Pere and argues that we can't just auto-clear him based on MSH's results. A lot of this occurred on the day prior to MSH being lynched. I see this as Sword distancing himself from Pere and preparing for MSH's lynch the following day when there was nothing to hypothetically prevent MSH's death the following night. As pointed out earlier, Sword pretty much lays down these positions to the side after MSH is lynched - a flip which should have pretty much confirmed his suspicions of the ties between MSH and Pere earlier.

Add onto this, Sword really only seriously voted for MSH. He didn't vote for Nero, he voted Amrun for pressure (post 1820), and he didn't vote for Peregrine. MSH is the only one who voted for him. Also: both occurred on the same day. This really really makes me think this was a preplanned bus. Sword was a relative town read to people and not many others were willing to lynch MSH, especially when he still had an excuse to be alive (CKD's protection). Voting for each other really went no where, and on MSH's part the vote was very brief.

The associations of others with Sword is just as limited. Nero mentions him about 5 times, Amrun only

once

on the day of her lynch when she was picking out the scum team. Pere mainly had him as a town read... until yesterday. MSH did give us a few reads though, but they were pretty murky and inconsistent. He kinda goes back and forth on him and keeps mentioning Sword not being on and such. Possible annoyance at a partner not being around at a time when another partner (Nero) was under heavy fire. In post 1899 MSH gives his first real read of Sword, which is:

Haven't got a strong read on him, though he doesn't feel too bad.

Which isn't really a read at all. MSH evaluates him in post 2186 and says his play feels genuine, but later on voes for him in post 2395 which doesn't really add up to me. MSH doesn't even mention Cheery dog then (whom he voted for after Sword).

3.

Argument for his towniness

Sword's entire argument and drive to prove his towniness yesterday in post 3038 without evaluating anything else. The entirety of his case depends on a few things:

Oversoul used his lie detector ability on Sword (which I proved he didn't), and Oversoul lied about about his other investigations being dead so OS could have an ace up his sleeve coming into D11 (assuming he were alive). Since OS thought I was a scum candidate and he had doubts on Poro, it was more likely one of

us

would die instead of Sword (a townier read would most likely be killed, though), making whoever was remaining confirmed scum.

This didn't happen.

It was very apparent Oversoul thought he was going to die N10 (post 3048). There was no motivation for him to lie then. He couldn't have investigated Sword anyway, given the mass commute on his investigation day after mass claim and it was clear that he investigated Seanald on the day of MSH's lynch (post 3052, post 3067) no matter how much Sword insists otherwise. Given his beliefs in Oversoul's results on Seanald and Pere, there is no reason or motivation for Sword to believe OS was lying about his

other

results being dead except to push the nonexistent point for his towniness.

Beyond his insistence of his towniness, what really stands out to me is the fact that he thought he would be least likely to die. This is completely contrary to his opinion D9 (post 2716) where he thought he would be night killed. It really made no sense to die

then

(before masons or Oversoul) as it makes no sense why he would have been least likely to die two nights ago. In the first case, I can definitely see overly-conscious scum-Sword being worried what others may think about him being alive versus others after busing, and in this case I see it as scum-Sword trying to make an excuse for himself to still be alive

when it was far more likely he would be night killed versus Poro and I

in his own scenario.

With that,

VOTE: sword_of_omens

[Jal]

Yuuup.

[Jal]

I'll address Sword in a few.

[Jal]

Actually, this will have to wait until later this afternoon. Last day of exams and such blah blah.

[Jal]

No one except Oversoul knew the limitations of his power. He refused to be specific about it. Don't argue it like it was common knowledge before his flip. There was a decent reason for scum to be worried that Oversoul had the ability to either clear a townie or check them.
You'd think Poro would be pretty clear (at least their role) after giving Oversoul the double vote, but it didn't stop derpy Seanald and Oversoul from suspecting Poro D10 moreso than they did you

I was under the impression that MS rec’d names and abilities from his role-cop. Hence he would get OS’s name and odd night lie detect ability? After your statement, though, i asked the mod to verify whether or not they got abilities or just a role title. And you are correct..it is just a role title... So yes, you are correct on this point. Apparently you were worried about OS checking you. Although I still think killing OS was a dumb move, btw...
i would highly question whether or not OS was lying about his ability, seeing as he survived this long as a scum investigated Power Role (MS knew OS's initials before OS claimed), especially when lower VT's were NK'd instead...even if he cleared or guiltied someone he would have had to have tried to convince us, considering a wrong lynch would end the game.

Nice backtracking here, champ. You didn't need to "ask the mod" anything since Oversoul purposely didn't specify his role limitations pre-flip.

You knew this

, and tried to use that point to in an attempt to try and discredit my point against you bring scum.

Also, you keep going on about how you "don't know" why scum chose to kill Oversoul. You do realize that a scum-me would have benefited the most from having him alive yesterday, right? Given the amount of suspicion on me, Oversoul suddenly outing himself in the most scummily way possible would have been a god send for me if I had been scum, especially after confirming my hypothetical partner scum. Even if Oversoul didn't have limitations and somehow came up with a scum reading on me, that would have brought additional WIFOM and looked more so like he was just trying to push his reads.

Who did benefit from OS dying? You. You just admitted you didn't know the specifics of Oversoul yourself even with MSH rolecoping him. One more investigation would have cleared me or incriminated you, and when his investigations came out to be

the opposite of what he was pushing earlier

, you know what would have happened to all that WIFOM? A big chunk of it would have gone away and your townie status would have been gone out the window.

There is also Oversoul's death to consider. I doubt a lone scum would kill Oversoul, as it would prove they're guilty once he flipped and end the game. Scum have purposely sacrificed Pere. This makes me think a) scum were worried Oversoul would investigate overnight and find their partner or confirm a town and b) scum are in a good enough position that they believe they can make it in 3-man LYLO without Pere. B points to you, as Poro is probably #2 on most people's Pere's scum-buddy-list just after me. He has faced more suspicion than you, who has virtually faced none for the past few game days.

B also points to you Jal, you were already distancing yourself from Pere once MS was lynched, as scum would want to do towards endgame...i'll get into that in just a sec...

Point B points to you being scum due to you being the only one in a good enough position (being the least suspect) to make the trade-off in sacrificing your partner to kill OS to prevent potential future investigations.

I was high on most people's scum list going into D10 (OS, Seanald, Pere, I am going to count you here too, no idea about Poro) - no. Point B doesn't point to me whatsoever. Also, if I were actually trying to distance myself from Pere by trying to lynch him, I must have been pretty shit at since it didn't work on anyone and I suddenly came under high suspicion D9.

This argument of yours doesn't even have anything to to do with my point.

As i explained..i didn’t like either of the wagons at the time and i was pretty certain of my re-read analysis on MS. I was very confident (given the circumstances and his playstyle) that he wouldn’t have bussed his buddy at the time he voted for Pere. Keep in mind, OS was pushing hard for LS, not to mention that I found you suspect already, so yes, your vote on Pere helped sway me to vote LS.

You say you weren't thrilled by either wagon,

but you did nothing about it

. Instead, you just hammered Lastsurvivor when there was no immediate reason for you to do so. Deadline was a few days away and it was Monday, so there was no v/la excuse to suddenly do that. You had the option to jump on Seanald if you actually wanted an alternative or try to wagon me. The problem with both? It wouldn't have stopped OS from hammering your scum buddy which was only intermittent, given his complaints about hammering either, if no one else jumped on LS.

This still doesn't discount the fact that you actually failed to ISO Pere and go through his play with everyone, which would have been more difficult for you to clear him with. As I said, scum can find it difficult to look past the scumminess of their partners when giving a read and lie, making it easier to clear someone based on subjective associations You solely cleared Pere by going through MSH's ISO in post 2777.

In fact, you only specifically commented on MSH's interactions with Pere and

yourself

, which doesn't even make sense for a townie to even do. There's no reason for a town-you to actually comment MSH semi-clearing you and going back to you on his reads list. It's pretty obvious looking back on it you were very self-conscious about MSH busing you earlier.

With Amrun set up as the lynch for the day and CKD’s claim of Superman, scum can plan to take out CKD with Peregrine, so she can safely put Pere back in the lynch candidates list:

@Rach, I love ya, but you've got to stop outing when you have some-sort PR like that.
Yeah, Amrun's relative silence and still no reads definitely looks like scum.

, MichelSableheart wrote:
With Porochaz' and RachMarie's names unlikely scum, that leaves Amrun, Peregrine and Sword as scumcandidates. Willing to join an Amrun wagon.

I suggest the former scum read (Peregrine) rather than the latter (Sword) based on votes today to look up on tonight. Either way, I suggest looking up more controversial players (Peregrine, Lastsurvivor, Pyro) tonight, Michel

There was a mass block that night…so Peregrine was needed to survive another day…Jal never tried pressuring Pere that day ..just a simple “where’s your update Pere?, in the middle of a “pass the alchohol, Poro” post. She didn’t go after him for his vote the Mason’s either, again, just a “I don’t know what he’s doing? Post…In fact she doesn’t even bother chasing him down until after MS is lynched , when she really needed to distance.

I never said that was my lynch candidate list. I was giving investigation suggestions to MSH partially based on his own scum reads and controversial players. Regardless, I ended up voting for Paid_Pyro the next day anyway (someone I listed), and there was no reason for me to go after and vote Pere after MSH (someone whom I thought was town) cleared him.

Difference between me and you is that you suddenly dropped your scum read on Pere even though prior to MSH's flip you were worrying about MSH giving Pere an out in post 2406 which indicates you thought a) MSH was scummy for potentially helping clear Pere and b) Pere was scummy for the claim and taking the alternate option MSH gave. It's pretty clear you were trying to make a link here that the two may be scum together. By your earlier actions, town-you would have further pursued Pere given that MSH flipped scum. Instead, you dropped it altogether when Pere was being ran up and then suddenly cleared him based on MSH, which doesn't make sense given your earlier suspicion.

On MS lynch day, Jal looked to be fishing to help with MS’s fake guilty. She started with:

Let's work this out.
@MSH are you saying you got blocked or something? I don't understand. I would like an answer to Sword's question also, given the possibility of scum being in the non-investigative pool like I stated yesterday.

While MS went into hiding she asked Poro about his redirect ability he had..possibly to help MS concoct a story.

I was looking back at the deaths and the redirect one on particular seems like it may have has more than one use.

She did not vote for MS…
And now with MS gone and 1 member left, she actively busses Pere to distance herself.

Scum probably have a qt, so there is no reason for scum-me to help MSH in-thread to fake a stupid guilty. If he played "hella a game" like you said, he really wouldn't have needed me to do anything here. As well, Poro's redirect ability redirects the actions taken on a player back onto him (I think). That's not going to help MSH accomplish crap all.

You're saying I didn't vote for MSH like it's some point against me. You realize this attempt to incriminate me is a complete reverse of your prior stance on me regarding MSH's lynch, right?:

Although she didn’t vote on MS. Meh..could be she bussed her 2 buddies then held off when MS was going down, but I have a hard time believing that..if she were scum with MS then I have a feeling she wouldn’t have had a problem voting him, rather than keeping him as town til the end.

The rest of your post trying to say I think as scum does only applies to YOUR game play the entire time.

You

were pushing the idea the masons may not have been masons after MSH's flip.

You

are the one pushing the idea Oversoul should have stayed alive. Oversoul claimed cop while making comments like he was going to live (even prior to his claim). From Oversoul's point of view, there should have been no reason for him to think this. The whole point of my questioning was because because it potentially looked like a scum slip. Klick did the same thing in my game Open 434 Ice and Fire.

You're trying to fit me into these scummy molds which you are making up by mischaracterizing the things I said or did days ago and it's just not fitting.

[Jal]

My prior post on Sword still stands.

He was trying to prevent the lynch of Pere on D9 by dropping his previous suspicions on him and clearing him solely through MSH's ISO. His review of MSH in post 2777 is mostly dedicated to clearing Pere and talking about MSH's relations to himself. Going by his earlier actions where he indicated there was a scummy link between MSH and Pere, a town-Sword would have pursued his Peregrine scum read after MSH flipped scum- a flip which would have verified the link he made earlier. Instead, he didn't say anything about it after D7. A town-Sword also wouldn't have commented on MSH's interactions and read on himself.

That

is self-conscious scum speaking.

If Sword truly didn't like either wagon on D9, he would have joined the wagon on Seanald or started another one, but instead he hammered Lastsurvivor without any reason to suddenly do so. He hammered Lastsurvivor then because if he didn't do so, Oversoul most probably would have switched wagons at deadline and Sword couldn't risk it.

His suspicions on Pere and MSH didn't really develop until D7 in the first place. Combine this with the fact MSH called him genuine the day prior and then proceeded to vote him D7 adds up to a preplanned bus by the scum team. Scum

knew

MSH was going to live overnight and there was a great chance he'd be lynched the next day. Busing had to start

now

. Sword voted for MSH after being told to take a stance on him and this was after Seanald and Fuj took their votes off of him. There was little chance MSH was going to be lynched that day and given the town read people had on Sword, there was little chance for MSH's initial vote on Sword to take off. It was a safe bus.

Now that we're at the end of the game, we can look back and see where Sword was trying to maneuver to maximize mislynches and redirect suspicions on his partners and himself.

[Jal]

Avoiding the cow poker.

[Jal]

Do you seriously have nothing else to say, Sword?

[Jal]

Jal, Im not happy with your interactions with MSH during the second half of his tenure.

Like what?

----

Sword, you keep saying "look at it from a townie perspective." You realize that you are the only one looking at these scenarios in the perspective you're trying to show case as being town, right?

Who was seriously pushing Oversoul as scum? You and Pere.

Are you seriously trying to propose that Seanald wouldn't have faithfully believed what Oversoul said? Just look over the game. Seanald's reads changed depending on whatever Oversoul fucking started the day proposing. He dead-on thought Oversoul was town no matter what, and would have followed Oversoul's to the ends of the Earth. Poro seemed to be accusing Oversoul about his results to get Pere lynched and Seanald cleared rather than him being scum. The ONLY townie who seemed to be very dubious of Oversoul alignment given his claim was

me

, making me the only probable third vote between you and Pere to get a mislynch the following day on Oversoul (the only alternative that made sense).

Oversoul clearing me certainly puts a damper on that whole scenario, doesn't it? I would probably be a lot more likely to believe Oversoul - as scum he could have more easily just put a fake guilty than turn things around. Wouldn't make as much sense for scum. Clearing me also wouldn't validate Poro's belief that Oversoul's was faking his results to push his beliefs.

Fact is, there wouldn't have been all this WIFOM you're claiming if Oversoul stayed alive and cleared me as you're trying to make it out to be. Oversoul being kept alive potentially clearing me D11 would have completely screwed you over.

[Jal]

I have to get to the other stuff in a little bit. Company is about to come over.

[Jal]

Scum probably have a qt, so there is no reason for scum-me to help MSH in-thread to fake a stupid guilty. If he played "hella a game" like you said, he really wouldn't have needed me to do anything here. As well, Poro's redirect ability redirects the actions taken on a player back onto him (I think). That's not going to help MSH accomplish crap all.

for one thing, we do not know that scum have day talk...
if you guys were planning on something with the night talk and then it gets boffed because of the mass block,
yeh, you might want to let MS know not to screw it up..re-reading the thread makes it seem like you guys don't..
Look how often in your ISO where, when you address multiple people in a single post, it consists of the scum members only. Giving and taking direction maybe?

This is your second time trying to push this point, and this doesn't even make sense.

Rach already used her mass commute prior to N7. It doesn't matter if scum have a day talk or only night talk qt, my point is, there is absolutely no reason for hypothetical scum-me to give MSH direction on the day he was lynched. Scum had time to talk about it. Scum already knew MSH was going to run into trouble the next day. This doesn't make sense. The example you've already tried to push this point on:

While MS went into hiding she asked Poro about his redirect ability he had..possibly to help MS concoct a story.

I was looking back at the deaths and the redirect one on particular seems like it may have has more than one use.

Further doesn't make sense given that Poro's redirect ability redirects people who target that person. There would be nothing for me to gain here or actually direct MSH in the way you're trying to propose.

I don't get how the ISO stuff or how I actually interacted with people on the scum team (unlike yourself) relates to this whatsoever. Giving and taking directions to what?

Jal on the other hand,
has kept trying to bring in 3rd parties when it was clear that there weren’t any.
She tried to downplay the Nero slip for MS’s benefit when I was doubting MS’s claim:

I mainly broguht up a third party on the day RBT died due to the kill flavour used and in response to others. If this is some indication of being scum, then the game would have been over with Seanald's flip/OS investigation due to his stupid probings of a serial killer.

P-Edit. A lot of stuff has been said. Don't have much time to read it all right now. Will try to get back to this thread in a few hours and say some other last minute things.

[Jal]

She continually tried to throw the idea of a third party out there to add confusion to the town, even after the Mod confirmed that the post she was referring to was in fact just a standard flavor lynch.

Jal on the other hand,
has kept trying to bring in 3rd parties when it was clear that there weren’t any.

Didn't think I mentioned third parties that much. Went back through ISO. I was wrong one one point - I didn't bring up third parties the day after RBT was killed. I mentioned it later during mass claims when no one had claimed having anything to do with the peculiarity of RBT's death flavor not being attributed to PM.

Most of my mentions to third party claims

were responses

to other people.

1.

Response to Oversoul bringing up the oddity of GNR's death in post 2448 (yeah, we were confused that this was purely flavor). Commented on that and how RBT's death doesn't make sense from a scum perspective. I shut down this line of conversation in post 2500 after finding no similar roles n the wiki.

2.

Response to Oversoul in post 2721. He asked the mod a question concerning what MSH could accomplish being the last scum alive. I asked what he thought Lastsurvior was then, and then commented that given the game size I think we're looking for at least two scum. There would still be one scum, even if he doesn't think Lastsurvivor was part of the scum team and was "something" else.

3.

Seanald brought it up. My response in post 2823 was saying how I've thought about it, but again, no roles match what had happened.

4.

Response to your posts post 2873 and
and post 2887

You kept leaving the number of scum team up in the realm of possibility, by considering there could be only 4 scum which is unlikely in a 24 man game. My response in post 2891 was shutting down that realm of possibility unless you believed in a third claim, which there was no indication of, so no, there were two more.

I didn't just keep "bringing up" a third party at random or whatever. I was either responding to other people, or I was making it clear how the scenarios concerning a third party either didn't make sense, or for their scenarios to be correct there had to be a third party

which I then mentioned how there's no indication of a third party

.

You are just wrong.

[Jal]

This game isn't as clear cut as Poro choosing wrong and scum should have lost. I disagree. There were a series of incidents that lead to a scum win which doesn't just rely on Poro, and I'm a bit pissed people are trying to make it like it was and cheapen the scum victory. It's also much easier to sit in the GY and judge than to be in the game itself where things sometimes aren't as obvious.

*

Nero bused me perfectly. No one was suspicious of it - and trust me, Lastsurvivor can tell you first hand how he's seen me do that as scum to him horribly and be lynched for it following his death. He did well for how long he was in the game. MSH and Amrun were both aggressive and able to help keep town away from lynching Nero for two days, with a little help from Seanald D2.

*

MSH was caught by CKD, but was able to deflect major suspicion for several days by the rest of town.

*

Sword was right - I was trying my best to prevent Pere from being lynched, even if that meant lynching another partner. We needed Pere alive to give the necklace to CKD. We knew Rach's role at this point, so when she said she thought everyone would be safe overnight we knew we had to keep Pere alive at least one more day. The following day, MSH continued to keep suspicion at bay. Towards the end of the day I voted for Paid_Pyro, which started the ball rolling on his lynch.

*

We decided to clear Pere to get suspicion off of him, mislynch another player, and then use the janitor the following day. Obviously, this didn't go off as well as planned and we were stuck. If Pere were lynched, MSH would probably be auto lynched the next day for lying - he was already getting some votes. We made a counter wagon out of Cheery dog and it got pushed for the mislynch. I was trying my hardest to make that slot look bad.

Town had tried to lynch Pere twice at this point, but every time the bandwagon switched off to someone else.

*

After MSH's lynch, scum were facing an uphill battle. D9 and N9 is what decided who would ultimately win the game.

After MSH died,

by all means Pere should have been lynched the next day.

D9 was purely a case of town not wanting to lynch obvious scum. MSH chose the Rachel kill D7 because she seemed to be a universal town read and I agreed because that was one person who was really gung-ho for killing Pere. Also, Rach and Lastsurvivor practically act as masons/a voting bloc of their own. The next night, I made the decision to kill Fujiko. Part of this was due to us screwing up the janitoring on Fujiki and I was upset, she was a strong town asset and also: she was gung-ho for a Pere lynch.

We were basically eliminating Pere's enemies at this point.

Oversoul starting an out of nowhere wagon on Lastsurvivor was a blessing. Seanald of course followed. Sword hammering Lastsurvivor was a godsend and 100% unexpected. I guess my busing did work out for me and cause second-guessing (I hate busing). Pere also played well this day. He wasn't lurking, seemed very chill with his wagon, and put up the appearance he was helping catch dem scum. Also it didn't make sense for for anyone to doubt Poro's claim after Oversoul was given the double vote. Looking at you here Oversoul. Doubt on Poro's alignment was the entire thing that carried me to D11 instead of making a Pere+Jal pairing a poe slam dunk. By D11, I only needed to worry about Sword, as Seanald didn't matter anymore, and Oversoul was dead. Thankfully, no one really challenged the ridiculousness of Poro not being cleared except Pere.

*

We killed off the last Pere opposition: Lucky. I kind of regret not killing Oversoul. We knew Oversoul was a PR and MSH guessed cop right away. I kept hoping he wasn't or his PR had weird limitations. I thought him only being able post pictures also didn't make him a threat. Didn't work out in my favor. I don't know how well things would have turned out if we killed him otherwise though. I may have been on the chopping block and maybe Pere would have gone into Lylo. I don't know.

*

Killed Oversoul next as only Sword seriously thought he may have been scum. Also, Oversoul would be able to speak properly and I didn't want him coaching town. I did consider a Seanald kill instead, if only to not see his posts.

I went into LYLO and MYLO with a ton of suspicion on me. No one thought I was actually town, and we still won. It seemed so hopeless (at least to me), that Pere and I were discussing me killing him and claim PGO or one shot or something. Point is, it took a series of directing mislynches and choosing the right people to kill and bring to LYLO in order to even get to this point. We messed up at several points, as you'll read in our QT, but we did get the job done, and I don't think Poro deserves all this blame.

[Jal]

Here is our QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/zEgjJt89xZvDR.

Note: We didn't role cop KMD. We straight out killed him for being really townie and a threat. Lucked in with him being a PR.

Sword, you were right on several things. Unfortunately, you weren't as active as others in the thread and I think some larger personalities overshadowed you. You were town the entire game though. I really couldn't place anything on you and I really wanted to. I was just really desperate in the end. The one thing I legitimately had on you was the LS lynch, and that's after going back and trying to find something there.

I think the timing of the last two weeks hurt you. The thread started on a Friday and you went v/la shortly. I got a small reply in (I was trying to look active as I knew Poro would yell at me) and took until Monday to get my case out. I didn't respond to you until Thursday night when... you went v/la again and then I guess you got busy.