Mafia Behind the Maiden (Game over!)

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Hi.

I graduate tomorrow.

I have had the time to read this, but not really the morale.

I'm pretty much never going to be fully caught up, but I'll be able to devote effort probably starting the day after tomorrow. I might do some reading tonight though.

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I'm going to read this tomorrow.

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Hi.

Toasty: connection hunting is

bad.

In a 29-player game, the probability that you're going to successfully pick out two scum from a relational tell on day one is practically zero. I always cite Vi's guide when i'm making this point but yeah it should be obvious why and I don't feel like going into why right now.

Toasty is scummy. First of all the way that he voted for UN instead of Tammy in his first post doesn't make sense - he said that he shifts to UN, essentially, because UN called Tammy town. So his suspicion on uberninja is largely dependent on his suspicion of Tammy. On the other hand, he gave independent reasons to be suspicious of Tammy, but didn't vote on them. He votes uberninja essentially for being scum with Tammy. He also talks about the way that Tierce treated uberninja. His comments on post 68 also misinterpret the post in a rather strange way, as calling Tammy town and then voting her. I really feel like if you read something and misread it like that, you'd read it again until you realized what it actually said, and not just go with that being what it is. Unless he's talking about where UN just overtly called Tammy town, but that was after he voted Tammy, and he said later that he forgot his vote had been on Tammy. In fact, he explained that he had forgotten his vote was on tammy

before toasty's post

. Either way, toasty is missing very overt things from the people that he's calling scum.

Also dislike pretty much all of 449.

My first impressions of tammy/un/tierce are all town (tierce more so than the others). Alchemist might be scum. Less so than toasty right now. I'll look at other people later.

VOTE: Toasty

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So you think uberninja calling tammy town was bs - do you think this is a scumtell regardless of tammy's alignment, or only if tammy is scum?

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starting to think alchemist is town
also starting to think dramonic is scum.

I'm going to put effort into this game now.

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Vote: Oversoul

Do you think he's scum, or are you just annoyed?

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Unvote, Vote: dramonic

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I *think* it has something to do with him voting Oversoul after the gambit made him conftown to most everyone.

That's part of it. Other posts of his also make me twinge. Particularly way that he's talking about flavor. I feel like he's focusing more on trying to look helpful through giving people flavor advice than he is on scumhunting. Not that he isn't scumhunting; i just feel like he's doing proportionally less than he should be.

Some individual posts (ie 138, and obviously 874) also feel blurgh.The quote in 874 just shouldn't be there. I can see him voting oversoul as town there, but i feel like quoting the fact that he claimed to not be ike is just... not what i think he'd do when voting as town. I guess that's gut, but eh.

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Alchemist's wagon isn't taking off so you vote someone with no votes on them?

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Wow, that post sure accomplished a lot

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Don't see maguavotes.

One scumteam makes a lot more sense than two. If there's an SK, they probably have a nonstandard win condition too.

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Dramonic is still a good vote. Magister ludi is a meh vote. Greyice is a meh vote.

Also, the blue number went up by two in a matter of about ten posts and four hours, so it's probably not activity-related.

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Also.

See what I'm doing?

I'm making posts that don't take ten minutes to read.

You can all do this too and life will be much better for everyone.

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So toasty, instead of finishing that reads list that you said you'd finish you decide to yell at people who are getting annoyed at it.

Unvote, vote: toasty

We need to lynch someone already. We're going to be more productive in getting good reads once we have info.

Wyrd's town, dddp could be scum too.

tierce and glork are town, but really, that should go without saying. Oversoul is also town. Zdenek is also probably town.

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hi alchemist.

Vote for toasty.

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I'm not voting dramonic anymore. And I explained the vote in 890.

I think town are more likely to prefer posts with content over implosion’s posts.

Look me in the eyes and tell me that you read the entirety of every one of Magna's/tammy's/other wall posters' posts.

I moved my vote back to you because I want a lynch, the dramonic wagon isn't moving, and I still like your wagon. I've explained my votes on all two of the people who i've voted. And why do I have to justify who i'm giving reads on? I'm giving reads as I get them.

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what you have explained you've explained poorly. You justify reads because its the town thing to do. Yes, but I wrote your section before your vote on me (a fish could've figured that out) and your vote on me just makes you scummier. And the fact that you changed your vote from dram to me does not change my beliefs about you slot, and doesn't in any way change what the dram vote shows. I ISO'd your slot and found sub-par after sub-par statement, and, honestly, thought your posts were more tedious and awful than anything MoI or Tammy have posted. I will at the least skim any long post I see.

I haven't justified most of my reads. I can justify them if you really want me to, but I don't generally spend time justifying townreads unless they're under pressure. I've justified my votes for the sake of justifying my votes, so that others know why I'm voting. So really, your statement that i'm justifying votes because it's the town thing to do isn't inaccurate. That's why votes are supposed to be justified. So that others know why you're voting, and so that others can interpret those justifications and decide if they're valid.

It's your fault if you're going to make it sound like you think my vote is still on dramonic. Don't get pissed off over me interpreting your post that way. It's a game :\.

And If you're going to call me scummy for asking people to join the wagon that i'm on... yeah. you can die.

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You talked about getting short and to the point in one of your posts, could you do that in explaining what about MoI-scum I, and a few others, are misinterpreting

There really isn't anything specific... I just don't see them as scummy. They're playing about how I'd expect a MoI-Magua hydra to play. I think when I said I didn't see the votes on them, it was in response to their response to Oversoul at the beginning of 1058.

And given that you think DDD could be scum, do you think it is likely that hypo toasty-scum decided to go out of his way to bus DDD-scum out of the blue

Maybe. Probably not. Frankly, this is just a bad question :S. I don't focus on connections on day one. And even if I did, having two scumreads that I don't think are scum together (i mean, it's obvious that the expected answer to your question is 'no') in no way prevents me from voting one of them. And I see toasty as scummier than dddp.

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The toasty wagon is filled largely with nullreads, with some townreads and one scumread. My scumreads aren't ganging up and voting anyone.

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I know you said connection-reads D1 are bad, but do you think they are inherently scummY?

No. I just think they're a stupid thing to do.

ToastyToast (L-6) ~

Haze

,

UberNinja

,

SpyreX

,

Debonair Danny DiPietro

,

Quilford

,

Gammagooey, Wyrd, implosion

,

Teleporting Speed Hippos

Colorized for you. DDDP is my only scumread on the wagon. I've mentioned all of the townreads except for gamma. Haven't gotten real opinions on anyone else here.

I think the long and short of what I was trying to do here was say that if you think DDDP is scum, maybe toasty voting him is a town-tell and you could come away slowly from your toasty scum read and vote someone else! I really don't think toasty is scum here, and don't want to see him lynched.

Like i said, i think toasty is scum more strongly than dddp, so etc.

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Note that these aren't just directed at these people, other people should read them too, particularly the toasty wall (particularly the last part of it), I just don't want to take up too much of the page with walls.

Spoiler: Toasty

Firstly, i don't got a clue how you can get a town read from UN or Wyrd. If you could explain those, please do. May give me a better look into their slot. Secondly, it doesn't trouble you that you don't have opinions on half the wagon?

UN: I liked the comment at the end of 258. It feels like something I'd say as town in that situation. I also think his rvs vote is a slight towntell, in that I don't think scum would make an rvs vote that's so overtly 'scummy.' Like, if he was scum, I think he'd be more likely to read over 58, say "hm. This looks bad." and then be worried. But it isn't a scumtell since it was an rvs vote. It's also just a general feeling.

Wyrd: I like the analysis in 359, but when i said that read i think it was more based on 1135. In retrospect i'm not sure what i saw in it. But it still gives me good vibes.

Second, in UN's words:

Wagon analysis without a flip is useless.

Even if I had scumreads on, say, 4 people on your wagon, if I find you scummier than any of them, i'm still going to vote you. Especially if you have a wagon and they don't and i want this day to produce a fucking flip.

So you are okay with this? Why not mention it? I mean, you mentioned it as a reason for voting me (connection between Tierce, Tammy, UN). It looks like selective thinking.

Way to misrep. I

never

said "toasty is connection hunting, therefore toasty is scum." I said that you voted for one person when I think you, as town, would have voted for another. I made a comment about how it's bad at the beginning of 545.

then

I began my next paragraph with "Toasty is scummy," and put in reasons. Implying that I'm selectively thinking when I pretty damn clearly wasn't attacking you for just connection hunting is bad. Your response to me attacking your vote on UN, by the way, now that I see it buried near the bottom of a massive wall:

My UN vote is not completely dependent on Tammy because its scummy regardless of Tammy's allignment to vote them and then say you think they are town. Even if UN had unvoted Tammy when he changed his mind, it'd still be scummy. It would still be a sudden switch in perception without explanation.

Also, I think I already said this in response to OS, but I voted UN over Tammy because I wanted to further see how she played. In the end, I pretty much had 0 reasons not to vote for UN and a few reasons not to vote Tammy and Tierce.

He eventually explained the read when he was asked. Really, read the first half of this quote. It reads very strongly as toasty trying to retroactively justify his voting uberninja when I called him out on it. He calls it a sudden switch without explanation

when UN had already given an explanation at the time of Toasty's posting.

The second half of it just reads as made-up. He wanted to 'see how Tammy plays' because obviously it doesn't matter how un plays and voting tammy will make it so that she doesn't play anymore... it's so fucking contrived.

Spoiler: Duplicity

He finds that the push that it would be more natural to finish the reads than to get upset that you're being wagoned for something you've already explained is ridiculous.

I said it earlier:

this isn't the main reason that i voted toasty.

I voted him because of prior suspicion, and because the dramonic wagon stalled. That was really just something that I wanted to see toasty respond to. It was part of me revoting him, a very small part.

He also thinks that implosions entire play so far has been lackluster and doesn't think he'd play like this as town.

It's honestly a miracle that I've been able to keep up as much as i have. Have some meta. Early in that game, I was active because I had been in its prequel, and had a lot of strategic stuff to say. After that, I collapsed into a similar level of activity as I'm at now. Note more that early in this game, I was exhausted because of graduation. You'll have to take my word for it that my slot was town, though, since most of the game was lost in the crash. I joined this because awesome playerlist + vigame + i figured once summer started (which it has) I'd be able to keep up with it even though it's large. But don't expect the same level of interest, at least early game, as you'd see from me in a mini. I'm just not as able to get into it when there are 28 other people.

I'm very inclined to agree and think that Toast comes of far better in the whole implosion-Toast discussion with Implosions #1163 and #1666 being the worst offenders. They both look as if he's bickering with someone in a fashion that he's trying to convince them he's not scum while insisting that they are. It's something I see scum doing a lot more than town.

:shrug: I was responding to things that he said about me and attacking him in the same posts. Sue me.

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Have i mentioned that we could really use a flip

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Those are called votes, alchemist. And they pretty clearly haven't reached a consensus.

But to humor you.

Code: Select all

dramonic, Toasty

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I know that this isn't your only reason for voting him but that doesn't change that I find your change along with your comments still coming across as incredibly contrived. Also your meta is pointless in this case because the biggest issue we're having with your play isn't so much about the quantity of your posts but rather the content and reads don't seem genuine and you haven't shown any real intention to consider your reads on a deeper level. For instance your suspicion of Alchemist earlier was terrible, we then said we don't think you could read him like that as town and see it as you setting up for a wagon-jump on him if it arisen as mafia, you then said Alchemist-town but no explanation between any of the thought processes.

didn't even see that post about my suspicion on alchemist.
If you think that i'm coming accross as contrived, really nothing i can say about that.
And as I've said, i think multiple times now:

I haven't justified most of my reads. I can justify them if you really want me to, but I don't generally spend time justifying townreads unless they're under pressure.

If you want me to justify a townread, ask.

Nexus is null. I wonder why. He's an okay lynch. Toasty is a better lynch.

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I think the scumread on alchemist, in retrospect, was playstyle-based. My first impression of many of his posts was that they were contrived. Notable examples include 380 and 441. That's basically it, I thought he was putting on a farce. Then he posted more and I realized that it was just a playstyle. I think I saw a couple posts of his (706/710, mostly 710, the aggression in 710 looked genuine), thought they didn't look bad, and then took another look and realized that it was just a playstyle.

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I've probably skimmed maybe half of magua's posts and fully read one or two.

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I am devoid of will to do anything here
someone needs to die
it'd be really nice if that person was toasty but good god

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I've probably skimmed maybe half of magua's posts and fully read one or two.

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that wasn't a statement of intent to read the rest of his posts by the way, i'm not doing that.

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As far as blue number/timer speculation, Oversoul died at 17 and we got a massive story post at 12. Without more proof, and the kind of proof we're getting is gross, I'm going to guess that a cycle is approximately 12. This info isn't super useful, but I might expect something at 24. Inb4 the number doesn't reset.

There was also no vote count with 16 as the number, so it might be that OS would have died at 16 if there had been one. In which case, a cycle might be 4 blue numbers. It might also just be two weeks, we've been playing for about that long.

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I don't like a ML lynch.

Weak play, has done essentially nothing all game. Also a couple of small meta-related things that I'm just noticing now after going over implosion's iso. I can elaborate if such is desired by someone who isn't Alchemist.

I'd like elaboration on the meta-aspects.

Also, do you really think that you've done significantly more than me in this game?

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I'd like elaboration on the meta-aspects.

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nik is probably town, though.

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Meh.

Unvote, Vote: quilford

This day really needs to end.

magua, do you die if you try to masonize scum, or does it just not work because no scum will be masonizable?

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dana replaced zdenek.

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I, for one, believe nikanor.

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Vi I'm sorry but town losing with twelve pro-town people alive after having 5 dead scum in 5 days before the modkill is terrible.

Town had nothing to do with three of those dead scum.

yeeeah. Although I was killed due to being caught (even if not by the town, although i was almost lynched day one). I'm pretty sure if we hadn't shot duplicitly, no one ever would have suspected them.

Also, what greyice said regarding regfan. I think there's an old nom for him for paragon, someone should second it. Because seriously...

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By the way, had ML been lynched today I was killing DDD tonight. If we lynched Ml before 2100 EST tomorrow I would have won even then.

I don't think so.
The shot would have sent the number higher again, and the SK role pm said that even if there's a simultaneous win, the SK's win condition takes precedence.

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i remember thinking that gamma played a good game.

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did anyone object to posting the scum QT?

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meh here's the scum quicktopic

and glork, LLD was a strongman by the end of the game.

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Well yeah, timeater.
That's why it's called mafia.
Informed minroity, uninformed majority.
Scum SHOULD have more info on the setup.

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just because its a large theme game doesn't mean it has to become a guessing game. would it REALLY have imbalanced the game SO MUCH if we were given SOME heads up about the NUMBER of targets concerning Miciah's Plan or SPECIFICALLY what it was all about? i dont think thats asking a whole lot. IMO players shouldn't have to concern themselves with the vagaries of a setup and should focus on the actual game of mafia, e.g scumhunting informed minority/uninformed majority, mister. scum already have more information by the very nature of being scum, duh.

You were told specifically what it was about :S. That the scum had to kill a certain number of players. Those players not knowing who they were and the town not knowing how many there were is really not as mind-blowingly awful of a thing as you think - should the moderator let the town know how many scum there are in every game?

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1. we didnt know how many
2. we didnt know who they were
3. those players didnt know if they were targets
4. the type of players (e.g what sort of flavor) was not hinted at
5. vi's personal interpretation of the flavor (sort of) was what determined the targets
6. i assume most people would have thought 6-8, not 5
7. the targets could be lynched too making it easier
8. etc so and so forth

And you were town, so maybe you're a tad biased too.

Some of these just don't make sense to give the town (i.e. how many, because why exactly would an army know how many people its opposing army is planning to assassinate). Others would significantly alter/compromise the game in some way or another if they were revealed (i.e., what sort of flavor; if the "type of character" were disclosed, it could affect the scums' ability to use fakeclaims like Ike). Targets being lynchable... is really by design :\. And i'm sure vi knew that and took it in to consideration with balance. Really, the whole "not knowing" thing is the fun part of being town - you aren't sure what exactly is going on, and try to figure it out. Sure, scumhunting can be part of it, but the theme/etc add an extra part to that.

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As for setup balance... I think the operative word here is "swingy," but really, anyone joining this game should be able to tell that it's swingy by the scum's win condition. The scum could have had a target lynched day one, two shot night one, another lynched day two, and another killed night two (so scum could have won night two, or theoretically day two if the first days were long enough for greyice to get his daykill ability).

I think 5 targets is about right. I think the town did a relatively bad job of concealing who they were (pretty much any info was enough to determine who someone was - for instance, i figured out that magna was probably Tibarn based on what they said on day one), and then there were people who just outright claimed... which also let LLD do the same. I think that was probably a significant mistake. I think if this setup were played 100 times, it probably would lean a bit scumsided. Especially considering that the town was helped by two crosskills.

I think if the town did a better job with just claiming abilities and not identities, then it would have been better for them - if Magna had just claimed "masonizer" instead of "masonizer, and the leader of a country" then we wouldn't have known he was probably a target - i'm sure there's plenty of room for pretty much any ability in this game in flavor.

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Yeah. I think the main problem with that was that the town's lynching rate subverted Vi's expectations.

Vi, what was up with that thing in oversoul's role pm that said... you know?

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I remember glork guessing that it would be 5-8 at some point.

:shrug:.

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I also would like to say this though:

Vi, this was a hell of a game from a moderation standpoint, and you did that with almost zero mistakes (i can't think of any in particular other than spyrex's role pm). So kudos on that. Vote counts were timely (and they really had to be with this mechanic), etc.