Committee Mafia - GAME OVER

[petroleumjelly]

My goodness! *huggles Pooky, Yaw, and Coron* You guys are too nice. Sorry I haven't posted until now, I was on a much-needed vacation.

In any case, I would fully support a Glork-mayor. For now. He'll probably end up being a SK, so we may as well block his night-action.

I do, however, have to agree that No Mayor also seems a very viable choice, lest we accidentally role-block Glork and he is actually a townsperson with a night choice.

For the most part, though, I would be fine with many players being mayor. I'll have to be honest that if I were to list mayors I would be happiest with, it would probably look something like:

Glork - Excellent at sniffing out scum, he may not be "well-known" yet, but if he keeps up with his current level, he will be very soon. He also gives very detailed cases which are worth reading.

MrBuddyLee - A fairly new player, but from what I have seen of him he is very spot on in most of his games. Has good instincts, and once he gets the hang of not using WIFOMy arguments as often as he does he will be a force to be reckoned with.

Coron - As others have mentioned, although perhaps a bit soft-spoken, he has extraordinary insight into correct strategical plays. He really should be listened to more. As Pooky pointed out as well, he is highly consistent in his principles.

This is in no particular order, and it was hard enough to pick out three players. There are of course other players I would definitely have no qualms with being mayor, but these three all come with a seal of Jelly approval. I

would

put Pooky on this list, but he is too tricksy.

Vote: Glork

, and that cinches it! Let's get this show on the road.

[petroleumjelly]

Heh, you're just fine, Mudbuck. The mods will be sending out roles soon, we have a Mayor all set up and ready (and trust me, Glork being mayor should be helpful, since he'll sacrifice scummates for us if he is scum ), and now you won't be replaced since you've posted. Just be sure to be active once the game starts!

[petroleumjelly]

Holy moly, that's a lot of deaths.

Vote: Yosarian2

.

[petroleumjelly]

Wow, this bandwagon seems entirely silly.

Unvote, Vote: Rajrhcpfreak

, and

FoS: Yaw

.

1.)

because hes not helpful. hes bad and just admited that he killed someone or hes causing confusion by claiming that he might have killed someone but he doesnt know his roles. i want to be safe and kill the person that might have killed someone.

What I read: "I'm scum, and I want to get rid of town Vigilantes."

2.) Also, Raj said :goodposting: for this post:

"Blow up". Hee hee. So scummy.

And in the unlikely event he is a vig, any vig that would choose to kill night 1 deserves to be lynched.

See above. The purpose of the game is to lynch scum, not Vigs.

[petroleumjelly]

FoS: Glork

, although it looks like Al_Ky got to what I wanted to say.

I doubt Max is part of a Mafia group.

If Max is a Serial Killer, we already know his killing flavor. If any of his kills are something the town does not direct, we lynch him. If he kills even there is a promise of him not killing, we lynch him.

Basically: we already have Max reined in

if

he is a Serial Killer, and if he is a Vigilante, there is no point in lynching him.

Let the scum kill him off at night if they want to. Max is a wasted lynch either way. Think before you speak.

[petroleumjelly]

Did you target Pooky, Max?

[petroleumjelly]

Forced

kills, Mariyta?

I don't know if I believe that. My night-choice (should I have one) is by no means forced. Credibility: going down.

[petroleumjelly]

Hmm, given this some thought.

I think Mariyta is probably a Vig, especially if nobody counter-claims her kill on Pooky. I have an idea as to what Max is claiming, but I want him to clarify on his role (and I don't want to give him any ideas should he be lying). He may as well role-claim as much as he can within the boundaries of this game, in my opinion.

I will keep my vote on Raj, and my FoS on Yaw, I am not getting good vibes from either of them.

[petroleumjelly]

Well, I felt

that

claim coming from a mile away.

Could you be more specific with what you targeted Pooky with? What other things

could

you have targeted him with?

Note: you should not guess at other player's roles like that. Allow Yos2 to expand if he finds it necessary. I would further suggest that he should neither confirm nor deny a tracking ability unless he wishes to do so.

[petroleumjelly]

There we go. I believe Max. I also believe Mariyta.

Confirm Vote: Rajrchpfreak

and

Confirm FoS: Yaw

.

[petroleumjelly]

Vote Count, please!

I still think Rajrhcpfreak is a better choice than Yaw, so that's where my vote will stay.

[petroleumjelly]

Okay, there are thirteen people not voting and twelve people voting. There is something wrong with that.

Start voting, people! Plenty of discussion to look at. Start having opinions.

[petroleumjelly]

I am not spewing bs! I am saying that he has lied, and there are three things that contradict it, himself included! how fucking stupid are you to not get that?

Calling others stupid in an attempt to make your point is the tactic of a seven-year-old.

Calling others stupid when, in fact, it's you who are wrong... now that's pretty damned funny. Thanks for the laugh at your expense, FA.

Please bullet-point your three things that contradict Max's "lies". Given that:

* Inventors don't roleblock, they facilitate roleblocking.
* Mariyta killed Pooky with the shotgun, not Max.
* Many people have no reason to know what a "blow up doll" is.

Finally, if you're looking to insult people's intelligence, please try to do it more artfully in the future. Your posts lately have been painful on the eyes.

:goodposting:

Max didn't contradict himself, he just didn't understand his role. That doesn't mean he is not scum, but I find it highly less likely that he is scum over other people.

The same goes for Mariyta: I think she is probably a Vig. I am suspicious of the people trying to push either or both of these two lynches on the premise "it will be good for the town in the long run". I don't especially liked forced Vigs either, but if we use them correctly, we can effectively have two lynches a day (barring scum role-blockers, scum docs, etc).

Vote stands.

[petroleumjelly]

Assume there's a committee of forced vigilantes. Now, since many kills, especially early in the game, is bad for the town, they'd elect to use all their kills on the same person (assuming more than 1). Otherwise, they aren't a committee -- committees discuss things.

Hmm.

Unvote: Rajrhcpfreak, Vote: Yaw

.

[petroleumjelly]

Assume there's a committee of forced vigilantes. Now, since many kills, especially early in the game, is bad for the town, they'd elect to use all their kills on the same person (assuming more than 1). Otherwise, they aren't a committee -- committees discuss things.

Hmm.

Unvote: Rajrhcpfreak, Vote: Yaw

.

Am I the only person who sees the significance of the snippet I quoted here on Yaw? I cannot go into detail, as the rules of the game inhibit me from doing so. Either way, unless I am being misled as to the nature of the game, I think my vote is in the correct place for today.

[petroleumjelly]

Okay, Yaw, I'm not liking your argument very much here.

In all technicality, it is also (statistically) more likely that we will lynch a townsperson over scum every day (considering random lynches in a town with more townspeople than scum). That doesn't mean we should lynch ourselves simply because we're more likely to vote for a townsperson over scum.

The problem is, throughout the day, we always have a better idea of who is what alignment. That is how we get to informed lynches: and that is how we get informed Viggings.

I think Mariyta (and other forced Vigs) should have plenty of good targets tonight which should make our job (of lynching) easier as the game progresses. If she shoots out of line, we lynch her; if we obtain evidence which suggests she is lying or is scum, we lynch her; if her ability becomes a problem, we can likely direct it in such a manner that her ability will be mooted (such as Yos2's suggestion of having forced Vigs target the Mayor or an alternative plan).

Also, if she is part of a committee, then it pretty much implies other forced Vigs as well (so simply lynching one of them is pointless, especially if we can direct all the forced Vigs onto one target, which in essence could turn, say, three forced Vigs into only one actual Vigging).

I will play today as if I have a chance at two simultaneous lynches. Vote stands.

[petroleumjelly]

To be honest people, I think the latest discussion has

really

been pushing the line on the flavor of Committees (which I think is edging on Modkill territory). I tried to make my point in the most roundabout manner as possible, but I would tone down the talk about how people think Committees work, I would rather not have Modkills after having five nightkills.

Also, Yaw, I think you need to reconsider exactly what a Vig adds to the town. We can arrange today so that we get

two lynches

every time.

1.) The actual lynch
2.) The Vig target

That takes away the randomness of it, and in fact, allows the town

much

more influence on the course of the game.

[petroleumjelly]

Unvote: Yaw, Vote: Rajrhcpfreak

.

Don't want this day to end quickly, although I would say there is sufficient cause for a claim from Yaw at this point. I think we very much ought to discuss a Vig target for tonight, as well as a Mayor if the town decides it wants a Mayor for tomorrow.

[petroleumjelly]

Role name, please?

[petroleumjelly]

*Poke*

I see you there, Yaw. Role-name? I have a couple more questions after this one, too, so stay tuned.

[petroleumjelly]

You did

not

just leave the site after I asked you that question. For the record, I have three more questions ready for you, but I want you to answer them one at a time without knowing which question is going to follow after. You dang-well better get back over here if you know what's good for you.

[petroleumjelly]

O-really?

I will ask the mod myself, but for the record, I don't believe you, because of this rule:

*Special Rule* NOTICE: NO FLAVOR IS ALLOWED TO BE CLAIMED.

YOU MAY ONLY CLAIM YOUR ROLE SIMPLIFICATIONS (OR FAKE ONES, OBVIOUSLY)

. SINCE YOU ALL LIVE IN THIS TOWN, EVERYONE "KNOWS" THE "FLAVOR" BEHIND THE ROLES, SO NO FLAVOR CLAIMING IS TO BE ALLOWED. ANY BREACH OF THIS RULE WILL RESULT IN A MODKILL IMMEDIATELY

*Emphasis mine

From what I understand, you can claim your role-name. Just not the "flavor".

Also, if that is true:

Why could Mariyta claim a forced Vigilante, and Max claim an Inventor? I don't see how you are suddenly stopped from giving your role-name. I will be checking with MoS on this point momentarily if he is on-line.

[petroleumjelly]

Role name, please?

How is that not specific?

You know exactly what a role-name is. Doctor. Cop. Role-Blocker. It's not difficult.

Never heard of a "Cop Result Receiver", funnily enough. I've heard of Deputies, sure, but not Cop Result Receivers.

I will ask you my next question as soon as I get some confirmation from MoS here.

[petroleumjelly]

MoS doesn't seem to be answering, so I won't waste time. Here comes Question #2.

Do you have a night choice?

[petroleumjelly]

Next question:

When did you receive your result? During the night, or at daybreak? Or an alternate time?

[petroleumjelly]

Also, I just received clarification from MoS:

You may claim your role-name (such as Doctor, Role-Blocker, etc.), but

not

the context of how you came to be that role (such as the night-scenes, where each character seems to have a different background story).

[petroleumjelly]

Next question:

Do all members of your Committee receive the same result?

[petroleumjelly]

*back-hands Sarcastro*

Do not interrupt interrogations!

[petroleumjelly]

I'm not a cop, but I get all the night results from their committee. Which is how I can make conclusions about how they operate -- I only got one result.

So, let me get this straight:

You get the exact same result as our Cops do. And when all the Cops die, you don't get any results at all.

What use is your claimed role at all? You are basically useless, except for the one result you would otherwise receive from a Cop who died overnight. I don't think I believe your claim, especially when we factor in this death:

Rosso Carne, county sheriff

Either this role also receives night results from Cops, or it becomes a Cop after all Cops are dead. This is simply speculation based on experience. Either way, your role-claim is becoming less and less credible, seeing as your claimed role-name is:

"Cop Result Receiver"

I'm pretty sure you're the right lynch for today, but I'm going to start hunting for the Vig target for tonight, now. I would ask that everybody unvote Yaw and we start searching for a second scum, so as to maximize our effectiveness in the game.

[petroleumjelly]

By the way, I think Rajrhcpfreak is a good place to start the search for second scum, hence my vote on him. I'll give the game a reread tomorrow and see if I can't rake up another one, though.

[petroleumjelly]

Sarcastro, that is incorrect.

Your role-name

is

the simplest summary of one's role.

For example, if your role is Role-Blocker, in this game, you claim Role-Blocker. The

flavor

of why you are a Role-Blocker (like, you work in an orphanage that sends teddy bears to people, which in turn incapacitates them... etc) is what you are not allowed to claim.

"Cop Result Receiver" is not going to cut it. Your continued defense of Yaw is noted.

[petroleumjelly]

Sarcastro, credible role-claims (for information roles):

Deputy
Sheriff
Cop
Lieutenant

And so on. There is no such role as "Cop Result Receiver". Therefore, I think Yaw is lying. And this is not based solely on his claim (which I don't believe), but also on his actions throughout the game.

What exactly do you expect Yaw to say?

I don't expect Yaw to say anything.

I expect him to...

DIE!

[petroleumjelly]

Backpedal from what? I think you're scum. If you are actually town, then your role sucks, and the way you claimed it was not particularly inspiring. I also don't agree with your stance on:

1.) Max (He may be scum, but I seriously doubt it on a mix of gut and the believability of his role: the only reason he is being disbelieved is because people assumed things he had yet to claim)
2.) Mariyta (She may be scum, but I am very much against the stance that forced Vigs should be lynched on principal: for the most part, I think lynching pro-town roles is rather anti-town)

Also, Sarcastro, how about I take a glance at the Wiki, under investigative roles?

Deputy: The Deputy can choose, at any time after one Cop has died, to recieve the results of one dead Cop's investigations.

Yeah: I've seen roles that get investigation results from other people before. And they are always going to have a better role-name than "Cop Result Receiver". I just gave you a few names MoS might have actually given to such a role-claim in my previous post.

Also: I asked my questions to Yaw to see if I could more easily catch him in a contradiction, not because I have never heard of a role like Yaw's. It's not my job to tell Yaw what he is claiming and how such roles would normally work: I need to make sure I know what he is claiming to tell me.

Never

supply people with things they ought to claim.

Yaw's death flails have been logged. His threats of me looking bad tomorrow are also discarded: I find it much more likely he is trying to use fear tactics in order to get me to change my mind, which are not going to work.

[petroleumjelly]

Are you still talking?

Yaw has had multiple chances to give me a role name. Every time he has posted, he has had another chance to claim his role-name. Commissioner. Deputy. Sheriff. And so on. His claimed role-name is "Cop Result Receiver". And now, instead of even attempting to claim a role-name, he is threatening me on how "silly" I will look tomorrow and how I will have to backpedal.

I suggest you stop arguing. Step away from the game, and consider the circumstances. Then come back in a few hour and decide whether or not you actually believe what Yaw is claiming.

[petroleumjelly]

Yeah, MBL: funnily enough, that requires outing

at least

one Cop.

[petroleumjelly]

*sigh*

I'm not going to bother to respond to you any more. I'm just going to wait for more people to weigh in on the current situation, since you somehow keep missing my point.

[petroleumjelly]

Actually, I just thought of a better way to say what I'm trying to say.

When (if) Yaw dies, his role is going to be revealed. The deaths we have so far are:

Cop
Doctor
Doctor
County Sheriff
Scum [Corrupted Mafia Thug]

Right now, Yaw is trying to get the town to believe that when he dies, his role will show up as "Cop Result Receiver". And I just don't buy that.

That's

my point.

[petroleumjelly]

I'll give all this a reread later, I see that many people don't agree with my stance on Yaw. Right now, a question for the our

Mods

:

The town of Indecision has decided to elect a mayor, with a term of one day, until they get rid of this threat.

The mayor cannot be targetted at night, nor can they make any night actions of their own

.

Is a passive ability (such as receiving investigation results without having to do any actual 'investigating') considered a "night action"?

[petroleumjelly]

Ah - hmm. I guess that's

one

way to test a claim.

Mod

, was that a mod-kill? I can't tell if somebody directed that kill or not.

[petroleumjelly]

Oof, I'll get to reading all that discussion later. I've been slacking on this game a bit lately, as I have recently been putting more effort in a couple other specific games.

The second purpose of this post is so Ibby can have a top of the page vote count afterwards.

[petroleumjelly]

I'm doing a reread at the moment, but I just caught something so I'll point it out.

Any ideas about this from the rest? Should we follow Glork, or go through with a Yaw lynch today?

Bogre: Should I trust Glork?

Either! Both! TRUST IN THE GLORKDAR, IT SHALL NOT FAIL YOU!

Should I be pushing these lynches harder, or do you people get the picture?

Glork: Yes.

Also,

Strong FoS: Bogre

. I don't like the whole "Let's see if we can trust our mayor" post he made. It sounds like he wants to lynch Max and push it off as my fault if/when Max turns up pro-town. That bothers me... a lot.

Glork: I don't like people voting on my reasoning because they trust me.

Granted, I don't like Bogre's behavior either, but I find it difficult to see how Glork is justified in calling out people who trust him when he

tells

people to trust him.

FoS: Glork

. Still reading.

[petroleumjelly]

Marc.six, Vaughn, Blackberry, and Mudbuck:

do something

. There might be others, but those are the people I only remember like one post each from.

Also, Glork:

where

did you see a "pro-town tell" for Vaughn? From what I can see, he's just following bandwagons, and whenever somebody FoS's him or suggests he be Vigged, he pops in to say "no, don't do that". He is basically lurking. If you don't explain your reasoning, I will act is if you have no reasoning at all. Fair warning. Seeing as you've pushed wagons on FOUR seperate people I think are town (Max, Mariyta, Bogre, Masterchief), I hope you understand why I think you are

blowing smoke

. I still think there is a fair chance Yaw is scum, but I'm sure I'll just be screaming into the wind if I try to switch to that direction again.

I think Glork is

consistently

going after the inexperienced players. Max, Bogre, Masterchief, Slaking_Master... it's like he's looking at the sign-up list and picking on the easiest targets.

Unvote, Vote: Glork

and

FoS: Rajrhcpfreak

, he is in no way off the hook here.

[petroleumjelly]

Do I get a pat on the head and a glass of water in that post too, Glork? Trying to send me off to bed? It's still light outside!

Question: Why do you still think Max can be scum, but you don't want Mudbuck to be Vigged? Mudbuck is the player who is backing up (at least) the blow-up doll portion of Max's claim. Or did you forget? It seems silly to advocate one as possible scum and not the other without elaborating as to why. If Max is scum, I think Mudbuck is more likely to be scum and vice versa.

Also, of course you can't

only

attack the more inexperienced players. There are only about two or three left! Yaw was already climbing into a boiling pot by the time you started attacking him.

I would tend to think Glork's agressive bandwagoning is a pretty standard day 1 playstyle for him, no matter what his alignment is. (shrug) I don't feel like I have a good feel for Glork's alignment yet in this game.

When did I say I was voting him just for being aggressive? I know his playstyle. And I'm thinking his playstyle is

off

. He seems to be focusing in on the exact

wrong

players, while pushing bandwagons I am

not liking

.

Just because Glork is highly unlikely to be lynched today doesn't stop me from voting him when I think he is being scummy.

[petroleumjelly]

No, apparently I'm not brilliant enough to have figured out Mudbuck's role. Is he scum with you or something?

Also, you know very well that it's not just the fact that I don't agree with your suspicions for finding you scummy: from what I can see, you are more concerned in securing today's lynch than actually finding scum.

That

is something I consider scummy. And I know it's

easier

to secure lynches when you go after easy targets: that is what I am seeing as I watch you continually attack the more inexperienced players. You have not been taking into account that many players here have not played with you, and that sometimes when you call somebody scum, other people are going to believe your opinion over theirs (especially seeing as you were trustworthy enough to be elected our first Mayor).

[petroleumjelly]

For Vaughn, I think a better role claim would be appropriate. Not a complete one, just a better clue to what he might be.

Vaughn has no reason to claim or hint at his role for the time being. He isn't exactly being run up or under threat of a lynch. I

would

, however, like him to participate more.

Glork isn't being scummy. If anything, he's just corrupted from his gain of power.

Uh... *points and laughs at Glork* Nice impression you're making.

[petroleumjelly]

You can lead a Mari-Vig to scum, but you can't make her shoot.

Just because people have asked for Vaughn to be Vigged doesn't mean Mari has agreed to do so: in fact, she just recently mentioned the two people she was considering Vigging were Blackberry and Mudbuck. There is no incentive for Vaughn to consider claiming.

[petroleumjelly]

FoS: Glork

. There is

never

a guarantee

anybody

will "survive the night" unless they unnighttargetable. I might die tonight. Should I claim because of it?

If people want Vaughn to claim, they ought to

vote for him

. And ALSO, since you think he is PRO-TOWN,

WHY DO YOU WANT HIM TO CLAIM

???

[petroleumjelly]

I purposely exaggerated the point that anybody "could" die, and that was to make a point. The point is: I don't care what four or five people say offhand. If they want somebody to be Vigged, they ought to vote for that person, or

at least

present a case.

We also don't know how a Vigilante Committee would work: do they all target different people? Does the person who gets the most Vigilante targets die?

If a Vigilante doesn't take out Vaughn, it's likely that scum will leave him alone at night simply because a few people have shown a indicator that they would like to see him dead.

Also, although you are clearly "giving Vaughn the choice", it is sounding like:

"Vaughn doesn't have to claim, but if he doesn't, he'll probably die. It's his choice, though."

The word 'duress' crosses my mind, for some reason.

[petroleumjelly]

Actually, Vaughn was the first one to bring up his claiming. I am not painting a "claim or be vigged" scenario. I'm trying to make you realize that Vaughn *does* have a reason for hinting/claiming (which is the exact opposite of what you said in Post 720). I'm not advocating a claim. I'm not implying that he needs to claim to survive. Again, you're misrepresenting me.

How am I misrepresenting you when I am telling you

my opinion on your actions?

. My opinion could be wrong: but that's the vibe I am getting from you. "I think Vaughn is town, and that he shouldn't claim... but he's probably gonna die if he doesn't claim". And since I am currently suspicious of you being scum and all, I am getting the impression that you would know he is town (within reason: there is nothing stopping him from being a different scum), and so you'll look better after he dies ("I

knew

he was town"), while also getting him to claim with insufficient pressure.

We also don't know how a Vigilante Committee would work: do they all target different people? Does the person who gets the most Vigilante targets die?

This is true, only the people in the Vig Committee can know how such a committee works. Your point?

My point is that I was not "jumping to conclusions" like you said earlier about the "just because Mari isn't going to Vig him doesn't mean another Vig won't" comment you made. I have considered that possibility. But I still don't think Vaughn has incentive to claim because of four or five random people.

[petroleumjelly]

Vaughn's Post 634... this one's very, very subtle, and I don't actually *know* Vaughn's specific role. I'd probably understand if nobody trusts me on that one.

I guess you'll just have to find out how right I was once Vaughn's dead.

I don't give a damned about "looking better" or "being right." I just don't want pro-town players to die when I think such a death could be easily avoided. I've recognized the possibility and am cautioning against it.

You know me, and you know that I am not one for ITYSs (until the game is over Razz)

.

Yes, you would

never

do that.

It's the twisting and altering of words. Translating what I said to "he is probably going to die if he doesn't claim" is completely wrong. I never implied a likelihood that Vaughn will get killed. I said there is an increased chance (over another arbitrary/random player), but you're accusing me of painting a "claim or die" scenario when I am not. Stating it as a personal opinion does *NOT* make it any less manipulative or misrepresentative.

Which was preceded by:

PJ, Vaughn has been considered for a vigging this coming night.

It only makes sense that Vaughn consider claiming, as a few people have requested that the Vigilantes target him

. That's effectively the same as being "under threat of a lynch" since it's distinctly possible that he won't be alive tomorrow.

You might be saying that you don't want Vaughn to claim, but you don't seem to be doing much to stop it. How about I word it that way? You think is pro-town, and yet you say he should still consider claiming.

In my opinion, instead of vaguely hinting that somebody might consider claiming because four or five people (who aren't even voting) say so is pushing with insubstantial pressure. If I were confident Vaughn was town (as you seem to be), I would just look for another,

better

Vig target, instead of saying "I think Vaughn is town, but he should consider claiming".

Heck, I'm doing that and I'm

don't

know if Vaughn is town. I still don't think there is nearly enough incentive for him to even consider claiming.

You're grasping at straws, PJ. Look at what you just said: "Because I find you suspicious, I'm going to assume that the intent of your actions/words are scummy. Thus, I'm going to assume that you would say something scummy ('I knew he was town') in the future to reinforce my claim that you are scum."
Wrong. Flawed argument. Try again, please.

The argument is not flawed. I am saying that you look like you are trying to support Vaughn whilst also asking him to claim (even though you are obviously saying you "don't want him to claim"). And that's not pro-town, in my opinion: I think it is scummy. What I am sensing is

duplicity

. You are saying one thing, while I am sensing an implication at

another

thing. And I consider that scummy.

[petroleumjelly]

<meaningless correction post>

Wow, glad I'm not an English Major.

*You think -Vaughn- is pro-town, and yet you say he should still consider claiming.

*In my opinion,

instead of

vaguely hinting that somebody might consider claiming because four or five people (who aren't even voting) say so is pushing with insubstantial pressure. If I were confident Vaughn was town (as you seem to be), I would just look for another, better Vig target, instead of saying "I think Vaughn is town, but he should consider claiming".

*Heck, I'm doing that and I

'm

don't know if Vaughn is town. I still don't think there is nearly enough incentive for him to even consider claiming.

</meaninglessness>

[petroleumjelly]

The tag is this:

[ s ]Phrase you want to slash[ / s ]

Obviously, there are no spaces when you actually do it. Another way you could have found out would be to use the "quote" function on my post, and it would have shown the bbc code.

[petroleumjelly]

Remind me again who you'd like to see Vigged? I can't remember and am too lazy to go back and look through to find your potential candidate(s).

Right now, my top suspects are Yaw, Rajrhcpfreak, and Glork.

Answer me this question: Would you rather A) see a player you think is pro-town claim and survive, or B) sit quietly and die because of a pro-town force?

Let me put it

this

way. I can use bold colors, too.

The main reason Vaughn is being considered as a Vig target is because he is not contributing. I would rather go with option C) which states that Vaughn should begin participating so that players no longer think of him as somebody who ought to be Vigged.

I doubt your False Dilemma (only presenting a restricted amount of choices when there are in fact other answers) there was delibirate, so I won't hammer you for that one.

[petroleumjelly]

Wow.

Aren't chances high that Vaughn won't really last long in this game? He's already being pointed to and it seems he rarely lasts to endgame,

so what makes him so worth saving today?

What a

horrible

argument. Wow-O-Wow.

Anybody

might die tonight (heck, at this pace, anybody might be modkilled either). I don't make it to endgames very often either: I'm usually nightkilled

long

before I get that chance. But that doesn't mean I should be Vigged or lynched simply because I will not statistically survive very long into the game (or conversely, left alive simply because I am likely to be nightkilled by scum).

If Vaughn is pro-town,

that

is all the reason you need which makes him "worth saving". Every pro-town player over a scum player is helpful.

Note: This reads as "Vaughn is not worth saving, because he will not survive very long anyways".

I think a similar argument can be said about Glork. The fact that Glork was voted mayor means that many players wanted him alive at least to the first day. I don't see how Glork as town will last to the next day this game. These same players, if anti-town, will now want him dead.

Read: "Glork is worth saving, because he will not survive very long anyways". See where I'm going?

Thus, I will not support a Glork lynch nor a Vaughn lynch.

Now: Both Vaughn and Glork are not worth lynching because they will die overnight.

The inconsistencies here boggle me. Here is everything Pablito has said (the first four [And premise 0] are underlying premises):

0.) General: The town should lynch anti-town roles, and not lynch pro-town roles (save for strange circumstances)
1.) Vaughn is either pro-town or anti-town
2.) Glork is either pro-town or anti-town
3.) Vaughn is

not

worth saving
4.) Glork

is

worth saving
*5.) Vaughn is

not

worth saving,

but

we should not lynch him
*6.) Glork

is

worth saving,

so

we should not lynch him
*7.) Vaughn is

not

worth saving, since he will probably be Vigged
*8.) Glork

is

worth saving, since be will probably be Nightkilled by scum
*9.) We should leave both alive because they will probably not survive to endgame (implying the universal rule that people no likely to survive until endgame should not be lynched)

Poits 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 are all contradictory. To explain:

5.) Pablito does not know Vaughn's alignment. Vaughn is not worth saving. If somebody is not worth saving, there is no argument against

lynching

them (except for the fact that you do not know their alignment).
6.) Pablito does not know Glork's alignment. Glork

is

worth saving,

unless he is scum

(which Pablito does not know about one way or the other).
7.) The reason we should not lynch Vaughn is because he will probably be Vigged. This, however, does not follow: if we lynch Vaughn, somebody

else

will be Vigged (if anybody at all). Also, there is the distinct possibility that Vaughn will not be Vigged, and if that is so, there is no reason not to lynch Vaughn (unless he is pro-town).
8.) The reason we should not lynch Glork is because he will probably be Nightkilled by scum. This, however, does not follow: if we lynch Glork, somebody

else

will be nightkilled by scum. Also, there is the distanct possibilty that Glork will not be Nightkilled by scum (and even there worse possibility that Glork is scum himself).
9.) Since neither Vaughn nor Glork are likely to survive to the endgame, neither should be lynched. The problem is you

cannot

universalize a strategy where you lynch people on the basis that they "probably won't surivive until the endgame". Very few people do (that

is

why it's the endgame), and few can do so consistently.

Further, points 5 and 6 further create a paradox when combined.

5.) People not worth saving should not be lynched
6.) People worth saving should not be lynched

It is clear that there are only two types of people: those worth saving and those not worth saving. When these rules are universalized, nobody should be lynched (which clearly does not help the town).

FoS: Pablito

for

that

doozie of a post.

[petroleumjelly]

I'll flesh out the other inconsistency I just caught as well.

Premise:

1.) "X will not survive very long anyways"

Conclusions (which then turn into premises which circle back to [1]) drawn from that premise by Pablito:

2.) ... because X will likely be Vigged (applied to Vaughn)
3.) ... because X will likely be Nightkilled by scum (applied to Glork)

And further:

4.) Thus, we should not lynch X in either case [2] or case [3]

Notice that conclusions

seem

to follow the "If X [case 1], then Y [case 2 or case 3]" pattern, but really do not, because the true pattern is "If X [case 2 or case 3], then Y [case 1]".

Simply put, Case [1] cannot be the premise for case [2] or [3], because [2] and [3] are opposite conclusions based off of the same premise. Case [4] obviates the problem, because if you never lynch on the basis that somebody will probably be Vigged or Nightkilled, you will not be doing much lynching.

Essentially, all this goes to show is that Case [1]

cannot

and

should not

be a premise for

any

lynch or Vigging from any town. It is a faulty premise, and most of the inconsistencies from Pablito arise from the extrapolations from that premise.

Quick Summary: The town should not base any decision for lynches or Viggings on the premise of whether or not somebody is likely to survive until the endgame.

Sorry, OCD working a little bit overtime there.

[petroleumjelly]

Unvote: Glork, Vote: Pablito

. Should have done that to start with.

[petroleumjelly]

So... I'm reallly sensing PJ is scum, because I've played enough with him that I can metagame slightly. Not to mention his heavy assault on glork, when they both seemingly have the same agenda in mind (Not lynching/vigging me).

How interesting!

I was wondering if Glork was protecting Vaughn earlier (with his whole "don't Vig Vaughn, I caught a pro-town tell I'm not going to tell any of you about" spiel), and now Vaughn comes back to protect Glork.

Note: If one of these two comes up scum later, I

highly

suggest you look at the other.

Vaughn, please explain to me

why

you think I am scum. I am genuinely interested. Your reason was "metagame", but you didn't explain how such a metagame makes me think you are scum. To metagame somebody you sort... you know... have to give

reasons

.

Do you find my arguments to be faulty, or is it something else?

[petroleumjelly]

...

I'm good with a Slaking_Master Vigging, for the record.

[petroleumjelly]

DAMNIT.

Fine. Glork is probably town. Why can't you just be scum!? Argh.

Reviewed the posts, and I think Glork held his own on the Vaughn issue, even though I think he was using tunnel-vision and not considering the third option for Vaughn (which was simply to participate so he wouldn't be such a large Vig target). I don't agree with him on Max, or Bogre, or MasterChief, but I guess that can't helped.

My list needs to be revised:

People I want dead

Yaw
Rajrhcpfreak
Pablito
Slaking_Master

People Who Can Live... For Now

Glork
Yosarian2
Al_Kohaulec

Everybody else is up for grabs, but this will probably be the agenda I'll be pushing today unless somebody

else

starts acting scummy enough to make me put them in my "people I want dead" list.

[petroleumjelly]

Yeah...

Rajrhcpfreak is definitely staying on my "people I want dead" list.

[petroleumjelly]

*sigh*

Unvote: Pablito

.

Why is the two people I most want lynched are about to 'confirm' each other? Argh.

[petroleumjelly]

I take it we're still waiting on Pablito confirming "how much he can reveal" with the Mod? I'll have to reread later to see if I can't rake up something else in the meantime.

[petroleumjelly]

*Bump*

My opinions have been out in the open forever. Let's hear some from other peeps, yo.

[petroleumjelly]

Unvote: Pablito

. I can't say I

like

doing this, but simply from their [Pablito and Yaw] recent interactions about their claims, I think they are less likely to be scum.

If I remember things correctly, I quite liked a

Vote: Rajrhcpfreak

, but I will reread the game later to see if I would rather place my vote somewhere else.

[petroleumjelly]

Max is in this game? And he's still alive?

Urge to lynch: rising.

[petroleumjelly]

Oh, wait, yeah, he claimed that inventor thing. *sigh* This is what I get for trying to think too early in the morning.

[petroleumjelly]

Wow, Blackberry has three posts for Day One. That is pretty pathetic. I wouldn't mind seeing him Vigged, because to be honest, I wouldn't even notice he was gone and dead in the first place.

[petroleumjelly]

Pfft. If your Glorkdar was working at all, I would be in the pro-town slot there, Glork.

[petroleumjelly]

<3 Glork

Well, I know what

that

means.

*Gets out death warrant. Chews on pen for a second, and then decides to leave everything to Glork.*

[petroleumjelly]

I still like my vote on Raj. I'm starting to wonder about Yos2 though, I might have to check up on that later.

[petroleumjelly]

I'm starting to wonder about Yos2 though, I might have to check up on that later.

Any reason for that?

Yeah. It's a vibe. That's why I'm going to check up on it later.

[petroleumjelly]

Glork's probably scum. His position on Max is indefensible, even if it's correct.

PJ is probably scum for flipflopping on Max as well, except he corrected himself a minute later so I'm not sure what to think about that.

Please don't lynch Max. I think that's a terrible play. Will reread and try to help come up with an alternative.

Eh, I had just woken up when I made that post. I saw that Max had posted (and something completely stupid at that), so I posted exactly what I thought at the time: "God, why isn't Max dead yet?". A little bit afterwards, I remembered exactly

why

Max wasn't dead, and that was because of his Inventor claim, which I have also defended in this game.

And I have to agree: I don't understand how Glork thinks Mudbuck is town but Max is scum. It

still

doesn't make sense to me. So far as I'm concerned, Mudbuck saying his role has something to do with "blow up sex dells"

strongly

supports Max's claim, seeing as

Max claimed to have blow up sex dolls WAY before Mudbuck ever mentioned them

. I don't see how Glork believes Mudbuck, but discards Max.

The same goes with Vaughn: he has been completely useless (although he has posted more lately, so at least he is contributed to the game), and yet Glork defends him on a town tell he refuses to share. I'm just not getting it.

[petroleumjelly]

I think Rosso Carne was the "result reciever," and that Yaw is using Rosso's death and unknown role/ability to fake a claim that he thinks he can get away with.

Whoa,

what

? You think there is a CULT in this game?

Why

didn't you mentioned that earlier?

Mudbuck's role is not the same as Max's claimed role.

Oh, that's right. Mudbuck's your scum-buddy. How forgetful of me.

[petroleumjelly]

Wow, I so totally misread that line it's not funny. I saw "cult receiver". Cults on the mind. Second point stands.

[petroleumjelly]

Ohmigosh, you're so right! I am so stupid!

And concerning Yaw's claim... I think it shares a theme with mine.

Say, wait a second... I guess that makes me

town

! No doubt about it! It has to be 100%! How about everybody just say their role shares a theme with something, and then we'll

know

you're town! The scum will drop like flies afterwards! They won't know what to do! Boy howdy, I've never seen a winning strategy that was as simple as this.

Yeah.

Anyways, I know what role Glork

thinks

Mudbuck has, but I have no reason to believe Mudbuck is telling the truth.

Note: Yaw's role does not actually share a theme with mine, so far as I know.

[petroleumjelly]

Why yes, it really helps now that you've basically claimed your role.

You know, how about everybody just claim? We're already headed that way.

Town has probably already lost this game. We lost 4 town players Night Zero. We've

probably

lost 2 more through modkills. We've already have like... 4 other claims? Yaw, Pablito, Mariyta, Max?

I'm pretty sure the scum aren't stupid: I knew what you thought Mudbuck's role was, and I'm damned sure at least one scum does too. And now that you've gone and said

that

, they know the role you're claiming (unless you're scum, of course). That's basically two more claims.

Put short: there are probably about 10-12 pro-town roles in the game exposed to the scum right now in a 30 players game. Almost

half

the player field exposed on Day One. We are just doing spectacular. Pie_is_good would be proud.

I don't know what the scumgroups look like, but they probably already have a pretty dang good idea of the set-up by now.

[petroleumjelly]

><

Last post made out of frustration. I hate mass-claiming, and I'm not actually endorsing it. This game just gets me angry when I think about it.

[petroleumjelly]

I wash my hands of nothing. Next time you think somebody is town, but don't want to explain why, just don't say anything.

Let them defend themselves

, instead of giving cryptic hints of "I think they're town, but I'm not going to tell you why".

What do you think I'm going to do? "Oh, well, Glork thinks he's town, I guess I better just leave him alone and never consider looking at him ever again." That's not how it works.

When I made Post 929, I thought Mudbuck was claiming an inventor role with similar inventions to Max, but not exact inventions. Like he had a sex blow-up doll, but some other items instead of the ones Max claimed. Under this line of thought, I did not understand how you could possibly think Mudbuck was town and Max was scum. It made no sense to me. I took "it shares a theme" to mean "he shares some inventions".

When I made Post 934, I realized that you thought Mudbuck was a [EDIT, wow I almost pressed enter here, good thing I used the preview button]. I then got angry because in my mind, you are taking a vague hint as complete truth, and anybody who plays Mafia knows that:

Hinting at a role != Truth

Breadcrumbs do make a role-claim true: you should know, seeing as you don't especially like breadcrumbs in the first place.

When I made Post 937, I obviously knew what role you thought Mudbuck was, and now that you are claiming to have the

same

role, I was frustrated that you even found it necessary to reveal the role you're claiming. And now I'm just in an angry/sarcastic mood because I think the town has lost this game because of lazy playing.

[petroleumjelly]

What frustrates me is that I proclaim people to be protown or scum without backing all the fucking time. Usually I get a cursory "eh?" without too much other pushing. Yet for some reason, you've chosen to harp on me for it with regards to both Vaughn and Mudbuck.

Yeah, and do you know why?

BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE TOWN

. You could just as easily be scum who is either defending a scum partner, or trying to buddy-buddy with a townsperson. This is Mafia, and that's how I think.

How should I go about determining if you're scum or town? Not asking you questions? Not pushing on you? Letting your remarks go unchecked? Not voting for you simply because you're the Mayor today?

You should know

me

well enough that if somebody is going to defend anybody, they're going to need a damned good excuse. Remember Band Mafia, where you defended and followed Rainbow Brite for no outward reasoning? I pushed you then, too. And I always will.

Here's a tip for the future:

If you are going to make statements about players without presenting a line of reasoning, don't expect

me

to let it slide. Other players might. But I'm not that kind of player.

I state my opinions, and if I don't explain why I feel as I do, there's usually a reason for it. I'm furious that others (especially you, PJ, knowing my playstyle through and through) would fail to take that into account at all. Instead it's "OMG Glork supports someone, but hasn't told us exactly why! He and/or they must be scum!" That's a ridiculous stance to take. The proper thing to do is to file the support/connection away for further use (no, I never asked you to take my innocence/word for granted), but pressing the issue relentlessly is not always going to yield the desired results.

See above. You are frustrated about me seemingly "not knowing your playstyle", and yet you aren't considering

my

playstyle. It's no wonder we end up having so many arguments in games. We think alike in many ways, but we each have boundaries that we seem to cross on one another.

I think you're failing to take into account the theme of this game. Committees are going to be made up of several of the same role. When someone sees a breadcrumb and takes it as truth, IMHO the most logical conclusion to make is that they picked up on the crumbs and have the same role. Do you feel otherwise? Did you just overlook the possibility that when you went "Aha! Mudbuck is a _______" you didn't think "Maybe Glork knows Mudbuck is legit because Glork is a ________" too?
Maybe it just seems mind-numbingly obvious to me because I'm on the inside, but I really expected better from you.

I think you're not taking into account that Committees

don't know who else is in that Committee

. I hinted at this when I tried to get a wagon on Yaw for his saying "I figured the Committee talked with each other to send in their choice of an investigation target". Somebody can claim your role,

but that doesn't automatically put them into your Committee, nor make them automatically pro-town

.

I thought (and I still do) that you were being too hasty on taking Mudbuck's hint as truth, and "proof" that he is town. Of course it crossed my mind that you

might

be the same role as Mudbuck... but it also (surprise, surprise) crossed my mind that you might just be SCUM. Funny how Mafia works that way.

I found it necessary because I saw you as still completely disbelieving of my support of Mudbuck, when I saw (even from an objective standpoint, I'd like to think) a perfectly reasonable manner in which you could conclude what I claimed.

Yup, you're right. If

PetroleumJelly

pushes on you, it's always best to basically claim before asking what the rest of the town thinks. How silly of me.

I'll admit that claiming my own role was short-sighted, hasty, and pretty idiotic. But it too was made in a fit of frustration... frustration that you failed to pick up on Mudbuck's role earlier, frustraton that you refused to acknowledge any scenario where I could reasonably support Mudbuck, and frustration over the attitude/wording of your posts.

Agreed. And I'm frustrated that you had me go down this road in the first place. You could just as easily have let Mudbuck defend himself, and if worse comes to worse, allow him role-claim for himself without the rest of us having to worry about the ambiguity we have had to deal with for about...

twenty pages

. At that point, you could just as easily have dissuaded him from being a Vig target, no harm done, and your role never would have been revealed in the first place.

I was frustrated and still am very frustrated with PJ, and a part of me is beginning to wonder how genuine his words/actions were. I definitely see a case in which PJ would feign ignorance to push me towards the claim (and then act frustrated and blame the town for claiming too much). But I don't know how much I believe that right now. Needless to say, my warm, fuzzy feeling about PJ's alignment has dissipated, and his alignment is much more unclear to me now.

Think what you want, but I don't believe you have

ever

had a "warm, fuzzy feeling about my aligment". I've been searching for scum, and so far as I'm concerned, the pool for possible scum includes

you

, so don't expect me to take your word as Gospel.

Apologies for sarcasm, but I am

not

in a good mood right now.

[petroleumjelly]

Okay... I think I'm calmer now.

I've decided that Glork is

probably

town, based both on his behavior, his responses to me, and his claim. So instead of arguing with him, I'll just work with him.

Glork, read this:

We might as well act like an open Masonry. We'll go over every player in the game, and decide how likely it is that person will be scum. We'll just work right on down the list. This day is long anyways, might as well make it longer.

1. Coron
2. Nightson (Replacing Someone)
3. Olio (Replacing FATty ACid)
4. petroleumjelly
6. Glrok
7. chamber
8. Mariyta

9. Masterchief

10. armlx
11. rajrhcpfreak
12. MrBuddyLee
14. Max
16. Vaughn
17. lordy
19. Eon (Replacing marc.six)
20. al_kohaulec
21. Yaw
22. Drummer
23. mudbuck
24. NotForsaken (Replacing Blackberry)
26. pablito
27. slaking_master
28. Sarcasto

29. Bogre

30. Yosarian2

I'll post my thoughts on Coron later, I have few other things in the meatworld I have to get back to doing.

[petroleumjelly]

The problem stems from a willingness to accept something given limited (or no) information. I fully recognized that you (and others) might have been (or might still be) unsure of the legitimacy or accuracy of my statements. But instead of "I don't know why he's saying it, so I'm going to force something out of him" (your playstyle), I prefer the "I'm going to file this away and see what happens down the road, unless I can read into something that will give me a definitive answer to what I want to know."

Sometimes I choose to file things away, sometimes I don't. You are one of my special cases: I know you are a good player, and I don't like it when somebody like you says "I think so-and-so is town" and I don't understand how they come to that conclusion without presenting reasoning. It makes me uncomfortable, and my first reaction is that I am either missing something obvious. I read over Mudbuck's posts many times, and I kept coming to the conclusion that he was an Inventor, and from

that

I could simply not understand why you thought Max was scum and Mudbuck was not. I wasn't just pushing you for the hell of it: I pushed on you because there I thought I was seeing a

contradiction

.

Remember in Kingmaker, when I failed to pick up on Fritz's coptells and ended up forcing him to claim? I feel like the same thing happened here, basically. Instead of going "okay, he's saying something that isn't backed up, but I don't need an *IMMEDIATE* response," I said "crap, I don't know why he's saying this, I'm suspicious." The vast majority of my experiences with the latter train of thought have turned out poorly. This is yet another example of that, which is why my stance has evolved. I don't like the "I must have a reason for everything you're thinking" notion anymore. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree and take that into account both here and in future games.

Yes, this game seems to have gone down that line as well. It's unfortunate, but we'll just have to deal with it.

But PJ... Mudbuck breadcrumbed something that only other members of our committee could possibly know. You yourself said that you thought he had a different role up until I pseudo-claimed for him. I came to the conclusion that the "similar theme" he was talking about was in line with my role information. That's what an ideal breadcrumb should be, shouldn't it? He says something that will only be understood by the people he wants to understand it. To me it added up *PERFECTLY*... no, it didn't automatically put him into my Committee, but it was a huge indicator that he had the same role. Explain to me how he can "claim [my] role" and yet not actually claim anything at all. You've got things totally backwards here, I think.

Yes, I get that

now

. Things generally make more sense when they're revealed instead of hinted at.

First, I had previously stated (after you asked about my opinion on you) that I thought you were pro-town. Do you think I made that stance up? Do you disbelieve that I had thought you were pro-town?

Let me check your stances on me during the game...

FoS: PJ

Someone tell me how BLOWING UP A GUY USING A MOLTOV COCKTAIL IS PRO-TOWN!

FoS: PJ for making such flawed conjectures and assumptions. There is VERY CLEAR EVIDENCE that suggests that Vaughn won't survive the night.

You're grasping at straws, PJ.

I think I called you pro-town earlier. Lemme go check.

OK, I didn't explicitly. But by the time our earlier exchange was finished, I definitely had a protown feel from you. I probably didn't voice it because nobody was talking about Lynching or Vigging you.

FoS: PJ. You're being ridiculous.

So... no. From my POV, you've never been exactly "warm and fuzzy" with me this game. We've had two large arguments, and each time, we seem to walk away fuming at each other afterwards.

In any case, I've decided you're probably town

now

(although I think I did this after our

first

argument, it seems like we inevitably had to clash again), so I am

trying

to get us on the same page instead of bickering with each other.

PPE: Just read Glork's response, so I'll stop responding to this unless Glork wants me to finish.

PPE Again: Nightson, no. I suggest you sit back, drink some lemonade, and read over the thread again. I agree with you that I think Max is town, but I don't think it's necessary for Glork/Mudbuck to reveal anything further.

[petroleumjelly]

And for Glork:

Yes, I very much would like to go every player in the game with you. You have no reason to trust that I am town (except for my play, which has certainly not been astounding this time around), but I think the game will progress in good directions if two pro-town players make a substantive list of their exact thoughts on the other players. I pretty much think I'm going to die about every night of every game, so I try to say what I want to say before that's possible. You at least have the luxury of knowing you'll survive until at least tomorrow. I, on the other hand, do not.

And a couple days would be fine. I feel like I need to give this game a serious reread anyways.

[petroleumjelly]

Hm. I'll check back to see if that was a lynch for sure. Glad to know we actually caught a fricking scum after this horrendous 40-something-page-long-Day-One, though. I know my vote isn't on Slaking_Master at the moment, so an unvote from me won't help.

[petroleumjelly]

Eh, well, if Olio's Vote Count is correct than that is indeed a lynch.

And

from

that, I'm under the impression that Nightson probably isn't scum with Slaking_Master, or else Slaking might have waited to hammer himself to make sure the Vig target would be on the wrong person (some WIFOM in there, but it seems reasonable enough to me).

I'll try to do a quick reread to see if I can't find somebody connected with Slaking.

[petroleumjelly]

Quick notes as I read (though I'll start with one I had first off):

Note 1:

Pablito (I'm only mentioning him explicitly since he has come under fire during the game) is probably not scum with Slaking, due to recent voting patterns (such as Slaking's vote being on Pablito up until now). Post 762 only strengthens this opinion.

Note 2:

Yaw is probably not scum with Slaking, due to Post 352. Guess he

could

be the first person pointing the finger at his scum-buddy, but it's doubtful.

Either way, guess my opinion has been changing from Pablito-Yaw = Scum trying to confirm each other to Pablito-Yaw = Town trying to confirm each other.

Note 3:

I'm looking at this post, and wondering if Masterchief isn't as good a Vig target as we originally thought. This could very much be scum voting his partner, however. Still reading.

EDIT

: Dangit, I keep forgetting that Masterchief was Modkilled. It always just

feels

like he's constantly posting.

Note 4:

I'm also looking at this post, and thinking by extension that Vaughn is not going to turn up scum with Slaking_Master.

Note 5:

In the middle of the Slaking_Masterwagon, we have this post. I'm thinking Lordy might not be a bad Vig target tonight.

As such, I will revise my earlier list:

People I want dead

Rajrhcpfreak
Slaking_Master [Done and Done]
Lordy

People I'll have to look at closer tomorrow

MrBuddyLee
Nightson (Just a rough estimate at twilight, I won't exactly slot him in the "likely pro-town category"

yet

, but I still doubt he is scum with Slaking)
Coron

People Who Can Live... For Now

Glork
Yosarian2
Al_Kohaulec
Yaw
Pablito
Vaughn
MudBuck
Mariyta

PPE: Just saw Yos2's post, I don't even

remember

Armlx being in this game. I'll check back on that right now.

[petroleumjelly]

Wow, yeah, Armlx is a good Vig target too. He has pretty much done absolutely nothing.

People I want Dead

:
Slaking_Master [Done]
Lordy
Rajrhcpfreak
Armlx

I would support any of these Viggings. I wouldn't protest too much with a Coron or MBL Vigging either, however, I haven't really gotten good vibes from either of them.

[petroleumjelly]

Pssh. Dey is

all

scum-scums. I would rather Vig somebody I think is likely to be scum over somebody who is just plain not posting, however. For that reason:

My vote goes for a

Vig: Lordy

. If not that,

Vig: Armlx

as Yos2 suggests (although I would

personally

rather see a Raj-Vigging).

Hopefully Mari makes it here before MoS.

[petroleumjelly]

Huzzuh! *gives self gold star for helping decide on Lordyscum Vigging*

First things first:

1.) Yaw, how many results did you receive today (and of what nature)?
2.) Pablito, can you confirm Yaw's results?
3.) Mariyta, did you actually target Lordy last night? From the flavor, it seems like the only person who targeted him was Yosarian2.

[petroleumjelly]

*huggles Glork*

Vote: Coron

FoS: Rajrhcpfreak

[petroleumjelly]

Sorry, had to fix this:

DID ANYBODY BRUTALLY MURDER YOSARIAN2 LAST NIGHT?

yes i did

Hmm... *rubs chin thoughtfully*

[petroleumjelly]

Nice OMGUS. And is that supposed to be a claim? And if so, why did you claim when I am the only person even remotely pressuring you today?

[petroleumjelly]

Perhaps you should read my posts from yesterday. As you might remember, my last List of Suspicion looked like this:

People I want dead

Rajrhcpfreak

Slaking_Master (now dead -> was scum syndicate goon)

Lordy (now dead -> was scum syndicate goon)

Armlx

People I'll have to look at closer tomorrow

MrBuddyLee
Nightson
Coron

People Who Can Live... For Now

Glork

Yosarian2 (now dead -> was town Vigilante)

Al_Kohaulec
Yaw
Pablito
Vaughn
MudBuck
Mariyta

So my actions today (voting Coron and FoSing you) are completely consistent with my suspicions from yesterday.

[petroleumjelly]

I agree with Pabs in concerns to Raj. Raj getting the spyglass is no indicator of his aligment, and his having an "innocent result" (which we cannot even the Sanity for, let alone if he actually investigated somebody, let alone whether or not he would tell the truth about who he investigated) would not go anywhere towards helping clear him. I still think he was pretty scummy on Day One, and he definitely overreacted towards me just earlier. Spyglass = No Points for Raj, but

plus

points for Max (who I figured was town anyways, so this goes more towards other players who were less convinced).

PPE: I also considered that scum may have role-blocked Mariyta, we are not told if scum have any powers (we have had two "goons" from one sect and one "thug" from another, and that's about it).

[petroleumjelly]

Eh...

1.) Raj did not claim (probably reading your post too literally). He only claimed to have received a pair of binoculars (something which he would have no reason to lie about anyways, unless Raj and Max are scum together, or something). I can't really imagine saying something like that would set off "lie detectors" for anybody.

2.) Pablito never said he did not receive any results: he simply said he is surprised that Yaw has not received

multiple

results, since it would seem logical to believe there are multiple cops with multiple investigations.

I also agree with Yaw on the Mayor issue in endgame... hopefully the Mods will clarify on how such a situation would work (whether it would take 3 votes to lynch with 3 players, and whether or not it would even be possible to lynch the Mayor...)

[petroleumjelly]

Yes, Raj is right. We should probably lynch him before he gets to endgame, because he would definitely get lynched then.

That argument registered about a "0" on the "Do I care?" scale. If you get lynched so often as town, maybe you should do something about your style of play. And at the moment, I really have no reason to believe that you

are

town. You have pretty much consistently attacked people I think are town, and now you are attacking me (insert obviousness here: I am town). It's one thing to be a

little

off, but it's another thing to be

way

off. Your arguments about Mari-Vig and such have not exactly been inspiring.

Raj, do you actually have a

basis

for suspecting me, or is it simply because I happen to suspect you?

[petroleumjelly]

Hmmmmmm, let's see...

*huggles Glork*

Vote: Coron

FoS: Rajrhcpfreak

Followed by:

what the hell is wrong with you?

i should have investigated you.

vote petroleumjelly

blah blah blah...

Vote: PJ

... blah blah blah

I am seriously

loving

these votes on me. They aren't OMGUS

at all

. Now to respond to the "blah" sections of Coron's last post:

PJ- of course you put your scum buddies up high on your list. It's a good distancing strategy as you're not actually placing a vote.

That's a big accusation: that I would support a Slaking_Master's death, and during twilight,

make sure my own partner Lordy gets Vigged

by connecting him to S_M.

The sanity of 1 shot objects is really not a thing. I refuse to believe that it'd be less than sane if the person giving it was protown.

Have you read Verbose 2? Probably not. That game had 2 seperate 1-Shot Cops (the only investigative roles, in fact), and neither were completely "Sane".

PJ, dispite S_M being on your list yesterday and him being run up you NEVER voted for him, this I find odd. Please explain.

What a weak argument. I was not voting for him because I was busy voting for Raj,

another

person who I thought (and still think) has a good chance of being scum. My vote can't be in four places at once, as much as that may surprise you.

If people could at least put up some arguement for the voting of me it'd be nice. I wasn't even on your naughty list yesterday PJ, I was on the let's take a look back at list. When you I suppose, took a look back, surely you saw something.

You

were

on my naughty list because your play this game

has not

been very good (and this is further evidenced by this very post which I am responding to). You were not a priority for lynching yesterday because there were people I found to be more likely to be scum. Now that it is tomorrow, I am "looking at you": that is perfectly consistent.

A few questions for you now:

1.) Were you

serious

in implying that you think I would bus two partners on Day One just to make myself look good? And did you seriously not even consider the fact that I essentially directed the Lordyscum Vigging at twilight?

2.) Why did you even try to use the line of "you weren't voting for Slaking_Master"? That argument is completely dumb, and you know it. My vote was not even necessary to be on Slaking_Master in order for him to be lynched, and I was busy poking elsewhere. As you might remember, I was the person advocating that Glork and myself pair up and make an analysis of all the players in the game: ending Day One was not really something I was considering at that point.

Likin' my vote.

[petroleumjelly]

*snort*

That's what some people like to call a "joke", Raj. Let's go with definition #2...

2.

Joke

: n. Something that is amusing or ridiculous, esp. because of being ludicrously inadequate or a sham

Anybody who has read the game knows that Glork did not ask that question, as well as the fact that nobody would seriously

answer

that question even if it were even to be asked. The way I quoted the two of you was simply a (in my opinion) joking way to express my opinion that I think you have a good chance of being scum.

[petroleumjelly]

How about you present a case against

me

Coron?

I hadn't noticed the whole promoting vig thing, while it is a point in your favor, that by no means clears you of all the stupid sh** you've done this game.

Interesting. What "stupid sh**" have I done this game? I am genuinely interested.

You're talking about 1 game. 1 game can be messed up, sure this could be the one game, but other than any investigation immunes, or millers, I'd say there is a 99% chance that this thing is sane. Since this percentage is 98% we can say that it's assumed that it's sane.

Did you read the post where

I

talked about Raj's investigation? Even if he

did

get a pair of binoculars and he

did

get an innocent result, and that result

is

guaranteed Sane, Raj could just as easily be lying scum. I probably will not put very much weight in his investigation unless he dies at some point and comes up to be town.

PJ, it is very easy for scum to say another scum is scum. You want to know why, because it MEANS NOTHING, it has NO WEIGHT BEHIND IT IF YOU DON'T PLACE YOUR VOTE.

It's also easy to say another scum is town. What is your point? My vote was elsewhere because I was concerned with other things.

And I wasn't on your naughty list

List was formated this way
Naughty

Recheck tomorrow
Coron

Nice

Everybody on the "recheck tomorrow"

were

on my naughty list, but not on my "priority" naughty list (i.e. people I wanted

dead

). Trying to put words into other people's mouths generally doesn't work, so I would suggest you not trying it with me.

Basically you supposedly came back, took a look at me and then voted me. Without adding any reasoning as to why you're voting me. This is not something I tend to think of as traditional PJ type play.

Since when do you know anything about typical PJ play? I followed your vote for no reasoning in No Use For a Title on Day One.

The difference is this. Glork has done something to help earn my trust from yesterday: I did not agree with everybody he has suspected, but I am thinking he is town. When two townspeople think the same person is scum, I find no reason not to vote with them, because I can rest assured that the wagon is not scum-driven.

To answer
1) No, you only bussed one, as I have stated above.
2) The fact that you would trust glork to do that in this game, where I've actually found him reasonably suspect is a point against you. Also, sitting back and waiting for other people to either move on or do your dirty work is often, not always, but often, a tactic used by scum.

1.) Your definition needs to be widened. If you read my posts, the fact that I wanted Slaking_Master dead is pretty unambiguous:

I'm good with a Slaking_Master Vigging, for the record.

And my list was changed from:

People I want dead

Yaw
Rajrhcpfreak
Pablito

Slaking_Master

To (after I had reconsidered Yaw and Pablito):

People I want dead

Rajrhcpfreak

Slaking_Master

Lordy

To (during twilight):

People I want Dead

:

Slaking_Master

Lordy
Rajrhcpfreak
Armlx

Armlx was added because he has done absolutely nothing to help the game. Also, as can be seen from my posts, I was in support of Slaking_Master being

Vigged

while I was searching for a lynch target, so my vote (as I already pointed out) was completely unneccessary. If we had lynched somebody

else

, I would have advocated a Slaking_Master vigging.

Strangely enough, whether somebody is lynched or Vigged, they have a tendency to come up dead.

2.) Earth to Coron. Have you been reading this game

at all

? I have been the person who has

argued with and suspected Glork the most out of all the players in this game

. From my arguments and his responses, I have since decided that he is more likely to be town than scum. Glork has done something to earn my trust. As a parallel point, you have not.

With this in mind PJ could easily bus 2 people from the other mafia without remorse.

I'll just let that statement hang. It would probably be fruitless of me to point to all of my forum games where I have only tried to bus a partner exactly once (that person being Broomhead in Kingmaker Mafia, and in fact, my busing attempt failed in that game I was executed

before

Broomhead) in all seven times I have been Mafia. I will refrain from going in detail since I am positive you will just wave the "WIFOM Wand" and my point will automatically vanish anyways.

To be honest, the fact that you don't seem aware of this (my anti-busing nature in forum games) simply goes to show that you

don't

know anything about "typical PJ play".

[petroleumjelly]

Sorry for all these quotes ahead of time, folks, just want to make sure my responses make sense.

And wow, you picked the wrong person to argue with, here.

With this in mind PJ could easily bus 2 people from the other mafia without remorse.

Ok on that last one I think you're trying to be Deliberately obtuse. 2 people from another mafia I believe I intended to mean 2 people from another mafia. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Considering it is

impossible to "bus" people who are not your partners

, it is pretty easy to understand how I could misinterpret what you said there. The definition of busing is "killing off your own partner(s) in order to make yourself look better". If you are arguing that I am of a different scum group, the word "bus" does not even apply.

Saying "you're fine" with something is very different from advocating it. I hardly call it bussing right there, even if we were to go to night. Also I'm very certain I am the one who hates the misuse of the wifom wand the most. The two paths are NOT even, so WIFOM does not apply.

See above. My interpretation that you thought I was busing my own partners was reasonable, seeing as you specifically said that you thought I had bused scum in order to make myself look better. You cannot, by definition, bus people who are not your partners.

The difference between No use for a title and now is huge. Sort of like... I dunno... the difference between day 1 and day 2.

I just explained the second difference. I think you have a good chance of being scum. Glork (who I think is town) also thinks you have a good chance of being scum. That's good enough for me to open up Day Two with a vote on you.

If you put a fellow scum on a "Want dead" list which is too long and unweildly for real, you can go back and point at it and say "tol'ya so." Without really having to apply much pressue.

I thought you said I was part of the

other

Mafia group? Which is it? Now you are just being inconsistent.

So basically PJ, in a game with a one-shot cop, with a result you'd toss out the result because he might be lying scum? I think NOT. *shakes head* You really should quit being so dull man.

Funny. Weren't you the person who played in Jelly Mafia that thought the investigated innocent was scum? Yeah, that was you. An innocent investigation does not an innocent person make, especially when you do not know if the person

claiming

the investigation is truthful.

Also I would like to point out that I did have some reasoning with my vote yesterday, not like you with you"hifive: glork Vote: Coron"

I'll check up on that momentarily. In fact, I think I will probably just link to all of you posts that pertain to me from yesterday in my next post, and respond to any "points" you have against me.

I see you didn't bring up the OMGUS arguement. I want to hear the words PJ "You're right Coron, I was wrong."

FoS: Coron

. Logical Fallacy you just used here. Let's see if I can't find the formal title of it.

Appeal to Silence

: The lack of complaint means that you are correct. This is considered a form of an

Appeal to Ignorance

, where you assume that since you have not been proven incorrect, you are therefore correct. The Fallacy lies within the proposition of something called "tacit consent", which has all sorts of philosophical problems.

As for your "point" which I did not find worth responding to:

FoS: PJ I expect better play than I've seen from you this game, I think you could easily be promoting not-town intrests.

Alko and Glork have both really failed to impress me either way.

Vaughn might be scum, he's sort of seemed scummy to me.

To me right now Yos has seemed kinda protown but not that strongly(basically the vaughn of the other side)

unvote vote:Pj

Huh, this seems to be a quote from yesterday... near the end of the day I wonder who's vote is OMGUS... So yeah, I'd say my vote on you PREDATED your vote on me so you're right, not OMGUS at all.

Simply because you voted for me

at one point in time yesterday

does not make my vote on you

today

OMGUS. Your immediate response to me voting you on Day Two was to vote for me. Sounds pretty OMGUSy to me.

I'd also like to point out that "typical" PJ play has NOTHING to do with being mafia because he is usually town. Town don't usually bus people, this is the case I guess.

Now again you are saying I "bused" people. Seriously, you need to stick to one story here. And yes, I am normally town, and when I am town, I normally catch scum (I'm batting 1000 so far).

Also I find it interesting how you didn't bring up anything about the point about being willing to vote 2-3 people.

What point is there to be made? I voted for who I thought needed to be voted the most at each juncture of the game. I'm not understanding what your "point" is here.

Also, I can say 8 times I want glork dead, watch, it's easy.
I want Glork dead. I want Glork dead. I want Glork dead. I want Glork dead. I want Glork dead. I want Glork dead. I want Glork dead. I want Glork dead.

Have I made my point perfectly clear here? I have NOT ACTUALLY taken action to make Glork dead, so really it's nothing.

You are equivocating. I

was

taking a position in the game, and you

are not

.

[petroleumjelly]

Now! Let us take a look at Coron's impeccible logic in voting for me. This is where he points out all the "stupid shit" I have done, with "all of my idiocy" compiled into one easy post.

Oh boy, this is fun! *hops up and down* I will quote every post from yesterday where Coron even references me.

unvote

I guess I have more confidence in the claim than PJ.

Nothing yet...

FoS: PJ

I expect better play than I've seen from you this game, I think you could easily be promoting not-town intrests.

Alko and Glork have both really failed to impress me either way.

Vaughn might be scum, he's sort of seemed scummy to me.

To me right now Yos has seemed kinda protown but not that strongly(basically the vaughn of the other side)

unvote vote:Pj

Let's see... all vague. Not one specific point I can even respond to. Just that he "expects better play". A vague insinuation that I might be promoting "anti-town interests" without even explaining why he thinks that. I'm really glad you pointed that out.

And... guess what?

That's all

. So, I just read all of your posts from yesterday, and you never even made a single point against me. "Nice."

Perhaps I should start using baby words to.

Does lil' baby PJ wanna be a good boy and get his votey-wotey off big brother Coron?

Confirm Vote: Coron

.

[petroleumjelly]

Does anybody even

care

about what Coron is saying now? The only thing even worth reading in his last post was this:

How I see it, you voting me makes you inherently out of ordinary, becuase I am protown, and you usually are like I dunno... smart, and try to catch scum not town.

Let me put in this big, bold letters, because the argument you are making here is so dumb, it is seriously giving me a headache just thinking about it. I suggest you read this one word at a time.

I do not know who the scum are. In order to find scum, I must vote for people, attack people, and respond to their attacks. Your "attacks" on me are nonexistent from yesterday, as I just showed in Post 1090. There is NO REASON for me to believe you are more likely to be town than ANYBODY ELSE, and in fact, there is REASON for me to believe you are MORE LIKELY TO BE SCUM than many other people in the game due to your reactions to me, your recent use of FALLACIOUS LOGIC, your recent use of EQUIVOCATION as to the definition of BUSING, and the fact that you have until just recently only VAGUELY INSINUATED that I "might be scum" without presenting a LINE OF REASONING.

Even if you ARE town, using the defense "I think you are smart, but you obviously cannot be

that

smart by attacking me" says absolutely nothing, because you COULD BE SCUM.

Believe it or not, I do not have a Magical Device which makes sure I

only

attack scum. To hold me to such a standard is incredibly stupid, and incredibly hypocritical.

I have been trying to catch scum. If you expect me to change my mind on you,

attacking me

isn't the way to do it.

[petroleumjelly]

I use big bold letters when I am

pissed

, and last night, I was

extraordinarily

pissed at you. Your "arguments" against me were stupid, and your trying to throw the "you're better than this" line of argument (which is in fact in my Top 5 most

hated

arguments) at me was the straw that broke this camel's back.

Saying that on Day One I was doing "stupid shit" and that you had pointed out "all of my idiocy" is

insulting

. And it's even more insulting when you talk about how stupid I am, and then when I go and see what you "pointed out" (which is neatly compiled in Post 1090) it turns out you didn't point out ANYTHING at ALL. So not only did you insult me, but what you said (about you “pointing it out”) was

untrue

. What do expect I’m going to think about that?

Furthermore, you say I'm so "stupid" and “idiotic”, and yet you don't seem to even be looking at my track record this game.

We have had 5 dead roles in this game so far since Day One. Take a look:

1.) Yosarian2 - Town Vigilante - I said he was probably town (CORRECT)
2.) Bogre - Town Vigilante - I said he was probably town, because I didn’t like the way people were jumping on his wagon (CORRECT)
3.) Masterchief - RoleBlocker - I said he was probably town, because I didn’t like the way people were jumping on his wagon (CORRECT)
4.) Slaking_Master - Scum [Syndicate Goon] - I said I wanted him dead (CORRECT)
5.) Lordy - Scum [Syndicate Goon] - I directed the Vig on him during twilight (CORRECT)

So guess what?

Out of all the information that has been confirmed, I was absolutely right about

every single piece of it

. You saying that I am "playing like shit" and that I should "know better" does not exactly make me feel comfy with you, because you cannot possibly get better than batting 1000. You are trying to hold me to a standard of

utter perfection

, and expecting me to magically know that you’re town (if you’re town at all, which I honestly doubt at the moment) is incredibly dumb.

Seriously, go back and read your posts. What amazing things have YOU contributed to the game? Why should I even think you are pro-town?

Please point out where I was actually FALLACIOUS, not just you making up shit. I didn't argue about the definition of bussing, in fact I agreed that I used it incorrectly, however it was intentionally used incorrectly because that was the term we had been using for what you were doing before. It would have been more apropriate as "bussing" but I'm fairly certain I already covered this ground, but you must have missed it.

[…]

Also I showed that you were falsely accusing me of being falacious, which imho is a very good thing to be pointed out, even if you might not have wanted me to mention it.

If you read my post before last, you would have noted the part where I FoS you and point out the Appeal to Silence: you assumed I agreed with you because I did not respond to one of your “points”. That falls under the Appeal to Ignorance.

Further, I was clearly writing my response at the time you admitted that you misused the word “busing” after Yaw correctly pointed it out: either way, that misuse allowed to equivocate on it’s definition, so that busing would apply whether or not Lordy/Slaking_Master were my partners or from an opposing scum group. Using one word which should only be applied to one circumstance, but applying it for two circumstances is a prime example of equivocation, which is another fallacy. Admitting you screwed up does make it go away.

I also like how the only bit you quoted from my posts was easily the weakest point I posted in the whole entire post. What you said there is absolutely correct.

I didn’t respond to the rest of your post because it was unnecessary. I only had to respond to your last line to obviate that. Your arguments against me are bad: I am not going to waste my time responding to bad arguments. I am only replying to you right now so that people don’t start the stupid “why is PJ skirting the issue” line of thinking. My vote on you was not OMGUS, but instead a carry-over from my suspicions from yesterday, and I don’t even

care

whether or not your vote on me today was OMGUS because your basis for it (which you have since tried to justify, since you clearly couldn’t justify it yesterday) was nonexistent.

You still haven't covered the points that I posted 2 of my posts ago based on the fact that there not being 2 scum groups, which is something I pointed out in my most recent post.

I actually agree that there are probably two scum groups. A “syndicate” scum group, and a “corrupted” scum group. Anybody saying we don’t have enough info to speculate on two scum groups is pretty silly: kills not matching up could be to any number of reasons. In fact, my notes of the game have Pooky [corrupted] in blue and Lordy/Slaking_Red [syndicate] in red, with all dead town in green. This may change as the game goes on, but at the moment, I believe assuming there are two scum-groups right now is the way to go.

Vote stands.

[petroleumjelly]

One last time. This is angering me. We will go over two seperate cases here, which together encompass all possibilties of me being scum.

I will semi-respond to Pablito after this.

Hypothetical Case #1

: I am scum with Lordy and Slaking_Master

This implies that not only was I fine with Slaking_Master being Vigged, but that I directed the Vigging of Lordy as we went into night. Essentially, this argument implies that I would bus (or show a willingness to bus) two of my partners on Day One.

(Pablito should read this too):

It would have been

extremely

simple to have come back during twilight and "not found anybody" I thought was connected with Slaking_Master. It would have been extremely simple to let Mariyta continue with the plan to kill Nightson. I would have been extremely simple to instead ask for a different lurker to be Vigged (i.e. Armlx). And also, my choosing of Lordy was

not

just picking out a lurker, because at the time Slaking_Master had a bandwagon on him, Lordy posted

specifically

to make people on the wagon feel like they were wasting their time (as I linked to during twilight). That is something you learn in "Scum Defending Partners 101". I pointed it out, people agreed, Lordy was Vigged, Lordy was scum.

You say you know "typical PJ play", but if you did, I seriously doubt you would think I was scum with Lordy/Slaking_Master. If you do not think I would bus my own partners, then you do not think I am scum with them.

Therefore, you must think:

Hypothetical Scenario #2

: I am in a different scum group than Lordy and Slaking_Master.

And if you think this, your argument that "my play is shit" really does not apply, and neither do many of your points.

1.) The fact that I wasn't voting for Slaking_Master is not longer a point against me, because he wasn't my partner, so I couldn't have been trying to bus him (this goes back to your equivocation the term busing: I was catching scum, not busing them)
2.) The fact that I wanted Slaking_Master dead shows that I was right in thinking that he was scum (i.e. my play can't be

that

bad)
3.) The fact that I directed the Lordy vigging at twilight, who was indeed Slaking_Master's partner,

again

shows that my play must not be "idiotic" because I was

directly involved in killing scum

*****

So either you believe I bused two of my partners on Day One (which you admit is unlikely), or you believe I was right about two scum (which goes against your statement that my "play is shit", because instead, my play would be dead on).

*****

For Pablito:

The statistic might be slightly off, however who I want dead constantly changes through the game as my opinion changes. Yes: at

one point

in the game, I thought both you and Yaw were scum. My opinion has since

changed

, as evidenced by my list. I do not have to be right about everybody in every single instance in order to be batting 1000. At the

time of death

of Bogre, Masterchief, Slaking_Master, Yosarian2, and Lordy, and what counts is that I had correctly nailed them so far as their alignment.

[petroleumjelly]

Side Note:

There is certainly no hubris intended in my posts... I expect to be wrong quite often during games; nobody is perfect. Although I can see how it might be interpreted that way, I was not trying to brag, because instances where I am consistently right are few and far between, and I by no means highly consistent.

I used my record on dead players by point of example to defend against Coron's claim that my "play is shit" this game, because although he

says

that, he has absolutely nothing which

substantiates

his claim. If he expects me to be right about everything in every circumstance, that should go to show just how weak his argument is.

*exhales*

[petroleumjelly]

Does anybody even

care

about the Coron/PJ debate any longer? I'm not even in the mood for responding to this any more, and I'm pretty sure everybody gets the idea.

Besides, I'm not even getting

paid

for any of these novellas.

[petroleumjelly]

Very tired, but I'll respond to one of Coron's posts. I'm not even going to read the other one, because it has too many numbers, and I don't trust numbers in Mafia unless they are fixed numbers and not percentages picked from nowhere.

1.) Five deaths is a lot of deaths for Night One. If commenting on that is seriously a "scumtell", it's a stupid one. I was expecting maybe three deaths... seeing five is like "holy mother of God, I had a 1/6 chance of dying before I ever posted".

2.) Me asking whether Mari's choice was forced does not imply that I think there are five scum-groups. It simply says that, at the time, I doubted there would be "forced choices" since my ability is not "forced". I have seen Vigs which shoot on Night Zero and were by no means forced.

3.) The role name debate with Yaw has already been exhausted. "Cop Result Receiver" is clearly not his role name, and at the time, I thought that was what he was claiming.

4.) Fair point about presenting cases, however. I expressed my willingness to Vig Slaking_Master after he had said something particularly scummy which did not even

need

an explanation to along with it. That exchange is found Post 762. At the time, I was a little wrapped up with the Pablito issue (and so had no time in my mind to vote for him), but coupled with S_K's "theory" of how scum communicate, and his willingness to play the sheep, I was fine with being Vigged while I was still searching for a lynch candidate.

5.) I'll have to get back to that later if I'm in the mood. I have played a number of games with you where we were both town, and modded one where you were town, and I was simply not getting whatever "vibe" I get for you when you're town. It probably has to do with the fact that you (up until today) never really stuck your foot in any doors, except to vote for Glork, which was obviously going to be a fruitless endeavor seeing as he was the Mayor.

6.) *rubs temples* Nobody has played stellar in this game. Period. Not even going to go into detail here.

7.) You point here doesn't make sense. I was angling towards adding more substance to the game at the end of Day One by having a list compiled by Glork and myself about all the other players in the game. What does that have to do with "substantive voting"? Voting for reactions, pressure, etc. are more than alloweable. I can't go about writing novels every time I want to vote for somebody.

8.) Don't even try saying that I "must be confident that you are scum". I have never been confident that

anybody

is scum. I am often just of the opinion that some people are

more likely

to be scum than others. Those are the people I press and attack.

9.) Of course you don't think anything you did was "particularly scummy". Nobody does: when people apply the word scummy to themselves (even me), we are naturally going to be biased in our own favor. Same here: in my mind, I have played about as good a pro-town game as I can expect, and yet some people (including you) think I am suspicious. It's difficult for me to fathom, but I'm not exactly infallible or incapable of the occasional contradiction.

[petroleumjelly]

Aggression =/= Scummy.

Aggression = Reactions. I am aggressive as both town and scum. If that's your only reason for suspecting me, I'm not concerned.

[petroleumjelly]

Bah, I was writing a post almost exactly like Yaw's in Word: I am fully of the belief that scum know their partners in this game, for those exact two reasons.

FoS: Glork

, I think you may have been trying to spread disinformation in that post. Coupled with Yaw's earlier stance on you (which in fact connected you to Slaking_Master), I will have to rethink my position on you.

Unvote: Coron

for the time being, I took the time to reread his posts, and if anything, he is at least contributing (and I appreciate the fact that he took the time to substantiate his claim about my Day One play instead of vaguely hinting at things). That is

not

to say I am comfortable with him, but I may as well find a few other places to poke.

Also,

Small FoS: Eon

, I am not liking the way you are willing to follow me simply because I was right in the past: that does not correlate to me being right in the future or the present. You should use your vote independantly of other players, while reading the thread and deciding who

you

think is most likely to be scum, rather than voting on somebody else's say-so.

[petroleumjelly]

Doesn't work. Lordy couldn't know whether or not Slaking_Master was part of

his

scumgroup, if that was the case.

Also, I should mention that I'm thinking it is more likely there are two scum-groups of 4 players, not 3 players. If the game had 20-24 players, two scum-groups of three is considered feasible, but with 30 players, I would imagine each group would have 4 for balancing issues, especially seeing as it

appears

(do not correct me if anybody has a reason to believe it is untrue) that all townspeople have an ability of some sort. Gotta weigh it out somehow.

[petroleumjelly]

Think through questions before you ask them.

On Day One, Pooky was dead, and he was part of the "corrupted" mafia.

We know that Lordy and Slaking_Master were both part of the "syndicate mafia". Any syndicate mafia members would know there were two scum-groups due to the death of a "corrupted" mafia member, especially since five kills on Night Zero rather strongly implies multiple scum groups.

[petroleumjelly]

><

I think there is plenty of information supporting the two scum-group theory.

1.) "Corrupted" v "Syndicate"
2.) "Goon" v "Thug"

The descriptive term for each scum group is clear: there are "corrupted" scum and "syndicate" scum. Goons are equivalent to Thugs: they have no abilities other than being Mafia. The fact that both titles are being used in the same game pretty much shouts "These people are not in the same scum group".

[petroleumjelly]

Fine, Coron, I’ll make a case against you for Day One. You should realize it’s a bit difficult to make in the first place due to the fact that you hardly contributed, and in fact lurked (which you admit to yourself).

You start off the game for voting Glork (a useless endeavor, to be sure, although you certainly weren’t the only one to try it), and later said you like your vote their without ever explaining why (although I can make a few assumptions, it’s rather difficult to attack bad instances of reasoning if you never

present

lines of reasoning).

Your vote on Yaw was unexplained, although your unvote with the explanation afterwards was fair enough. (Noteworthy: This rather invalidates one of your reasons for attacking me: we both thought Yaw was likely to be scum at that specific point in the game, and we both changed our minds afterwards, although I took a little longer to sway because I misinterpreted what Yaw meant by "role name". Simply because I happened to be the only person actively pressing Yaw does not make me any more suspicious than the other voters who agreed with me).

You then have a gap of no posts between July 29 (where you leave your vote on Glork, which was, once again, a rather pointless vote) and August 17, at which point you come back saying this:

Guys, lynching me for lurking isn't often a good plan. These days I have not been having infinate time but I admit to lurking quite a bit in this game. Sorry guys, I know I'm not being as helpful as I should but, I will try to contribute something good within the next couple days, hopefully tomorrow morning.

So... you were lurking, not as helpful as you should be, and we shouldn't lynch you for it. And your “good contribution” afterwards was:

FoS: PJ

I expect better play than I've seen from you this game, I think you could easily be promoting not-town intrests.

Alko and Glork have both really failed to impress me either way.

Vaughn might be scum, he's sort of seemed scummy to me.

To me right now Yos has seemed kinda protown but not that strongly(basically the vaughn of the other side)

unvote vote:Pj

I don’t know about you, but I don’t consider that a “good contribution” in the least, especially since nothing you say is even

substantiated

in any way. When pressed to explain your reasons, you come back with:

Also you know me better than to ask me to elaborate infinately on my suspicions.

Even

bare-boned

reasoning is better than

no

reasoning. Further, I said later in the game concerning your general behavior:

5.) I'll have to get back to that later if I'm in the mood. I have played a number of games with you where we were both town, and modded one where you were town, and I was simply not getting whatever "vibe" I get for you when you're town. It probably has to do with the fact that you (up until today) never really stuck your foot in any doors, except to vote for Glork, which was obviously going to be a fruitless endeavor seeing as he was the Mayor.

The vibe you gave me on Day One was

not

a good one: it struck me as very fly-under-the-radar and don’t-get-involved-in-big-debates, which I don’t believe is something you normally do as town. It was not enough for me to go after you on Day One (because there were other players I was more concerned with), but at the beginning of Day Two, you were high enough on my list that I had no qualms at all in voting for you.

I will have to reread Drummer's posts, although the connection Yaw pointed out was something I hadn't noticed myself, and Drummer's contradiction on his stance on Slaking_Master is intriguing.

Also, if Olio isn't going to bother stating why he thinks Glork (although not necessarily Glork in particular) should not be voting for Raj, I will put not weight in those particular FoS's.

[petroleumjelly]

Hmm.

Very interesting points about Yaw. I will have to reread and think for myself though. Interesting note: if Yaw is scum, I will definitely be looking at Coron again (and possibly Sarcastro).

I would

also

like to test Yaw's ability. We probably only have to reveal one of the two "results" however. Yaw claims the result from Night One: if Pablito confirms, it goes towards Yaw's credibility. If Pablito

denies

, we know Yaw is lying scum,

and

the town has not given away any information.

Also, Pablito's argument against Glork saving himself is silly. If I were a role-blocker (regardless of alignment) and told I was going to be killed at night, you bet my bottom dollar I would role-block the person trying to kill me. As town, I know that each death of a townsperson brings scum a step closer to victory, and as scum, why on Earth would you care what the town wants? If I am town and the town wants me to consent to being killed, I would

only

do so if I thought it significantly improved the town's chances of winning (which I do not think would be accomplished if Glork is pro-town and we Vig him: i.e. doing the scum's work for them).

And gah, people have posted while I was typing! Reading now.

[petroleumjelly]

Whoa, another role-blocker claim. O.o

Hmm. Think we caugh a scum.

Drummer, would you please explain for the town how your role-blocking choice works with your Committee? I am quite curious.

[petroleumjelly]

Yeah, but if by some chance he's a mafia roleblocker, I think it's worth a try to anger him enough to get himself offed. I know, tough chance, but it's worth a try.

If Glork is a mafia role-blocker, then there's

no way

he wouldn't block the Vig trying to kill him. You aren't going to convince Glork not to block Mari if he is scum. The only way you are going to convince him is if he is town, and if you succeed, all we do is lose a town role-blocker.

[petroleumjelly]

That was not what I was asking Drummer, although I can see why you responded that way. A better question:

Do you have your own, individual role-blocking power? In other words, do you

know

that whatever your choice is at night goes through regardless of what other members of your Committee choose?

[petroleumjelly]

Yes. That's what I was led to believe. Unfortunately, I just remembered something. I'm not a roleblocker anymore. So I guess all of that information isn't really important anymore.

I'm a parasite, plain and simple. A couple of people in this game know that I'm not lying.

So... you're claiming that your role

changed

? Except you had a choice of role-blocking people Night One and Night Two? And that you were part of a Committee? And that your choice went through despite what the rest of what your Committee said?

Think we got some flailing scum, but he'll definitely need to elaborate on that.

[petroleumjelly]

You are allowed to claim what your role

does

Drummer, just not the flavor of why you do it. And for the record, what you have claimed about how your role works in your Committee makes me think you are lying.

[petroleumjelly]

Hrm. Interesting. Role-stealer, eh?

The thing that irks me is that the mechanic you claimed as a role-blocker does not really add up with what I understand about the game (and my own role). The fact that whoever

you

targeted for role-blocking is

sure

to be blocked (despite what other people in your Committee submit as a night-action) is strange. Can we get clarification from Glork and Mudbuck for how the mechanic of their Committee works?

I can't tell whether or not such a role would pro-town or anti-town at the moment, since I can see it both ways. I also can't tell if such a role would be capable of stealing the power from a Scum-RB (for example). I'll have to think on this.

[petroleumjelly]

Wait.

How did you have your own "winning condition", Vaughn? Would you please explain it? So you win if you get a scum role? You win if you get a town role? What would cause you to "win"?

And also, now that we know Glork was wrong about Vaughn being "pro-town", would he mind sharing with the town why he

thought

Vaughn was pro-town to a very large degree? There better be a good explanation.

[petroleumjelly]

Also, Vaughn:

If you knew that Drummer was a pro-town role (you claim he was a pro-town role-blocker) last night, why did you vote for him

today

if his role must necessarily be the same role you had last night?

You called Drummer a "liar" when he said he role-blocked you: which could very easily be true, and in fact, you claim to have

known

he was a role-blocker since you stole his role: so why did you think he was lying?

Do you have a reason to believe he turned scum when you stole his role? Is the parasite role a scum role (hence why you voted for him)? If it

is

a scum role, why did you later unvote?

You definitely need to expand in detail on ability, alignment, and alignment changes. I also want to know

exactly

what you think Drummer's role currently is: his ability, as well as his alignment.

Also, when you stole Drummer's role, how much information did you recieve? Were you just given a generic ability? Or did you recieve a complete role PM? Did you steal Drummer's

identity

, or simply his ability?

I am definitely feeling as if something is wrong between Drummer and Vaughn. I wouldn't mind lynching one and Vigging the other, but I will wait for them to explain their situation further.

[petroleumjelly]

Since you have Drummer's role PM, could you please explain the mechanics of the role-blocking Committee? Does it match what he claimed today?

[petroleumjelly]

Mods

, could we please get prods on the following people (and possibly a replacement for Max)?

1.) Max, Last post: 8-17-2006
2.) Armlx, Last post: 9-3-2006
3.) Rajrhcpfreak, Last post: 9-3-2006
4.) Mudbuck, Last post: 9-4-2006

[petroleumjelly]

(Taking a break from homework).

Eh... I'm thinking Yaw is town, Glork. I agree that I don't like his name-claim of "Cop Result Receiver" and that Yaw has been a bit aggressive (not unlike us), but since I think Pablito is town, and he is vouching for the result(s) which Yaw claims to have, I am willing to leave them alive for now. Of course, there is no reason to not

poke

at them (one or both of them

could

theoretically be scum), but I don't think a lynch or Vigging on either one of them is optimal at this point in the game.

Further, I think it is better to kill the Parasite

immediately

, as opposed to waiting before we Vig it. If we wait, it could steal somebody else's role, and then there will still be a parasite role roaming about. That said, I think lynching Drummer, and then vigging Vaughn is the way to go this game (just as Pablito suggests). Vaughn should object to being Vigged anyways, seeing as he claims to have "already won", and I would certainly like to hear from Drummer if he thinks there is a good reason for us to keep him alive.

I also vote "yea" for Mayor Mariyta.

[petroleumjelly]

@ Mariyta:

Glork only insisted that you didn't kill Vaughn before when he thought that Vaughn was part of a Cop or Doc Committee (or so he claims). With new information, plans can easily change. As it is, I would also simply suggest Vigging Vaughn: he very well could be a "corrupt

ing

" mafia or something, and he should have no objections to being Vigged anyways (as he claims to have already won).

@ Pablito:

I keep deleting comments every time I try to respond to your idea of voting me for Mayor, so I'll just stick with a "no comment". I will express no preference one way or the other.

[petroleumjelly]

For the record, neither Armlx nor Rajrhcpfreak have given me any reason to take them off my "I want them dead" list. They will probably be where I will start prodding tomorrow unless I die, or something. Coron is in my "I want to kick them in the shins list", but I am no longer as sure (if you can even call it 'sure') that he is scum.

Vote: Drummer

.

It's Peanut Buttah Jellah Time! *dances*

[petroleumjelly]

Oh, I thought we had everything figured out already, I was just going with the "Lynch Drummer, Vig Vaughn, vote Mari for Mayor" plan. *shrug*

Suppose I can

Unvote: Drummer

if you want discussion to go on longer, but I'm pretty sure I wasn't the hammer (I know that Drummer dropped down to like 3 or 4 votes at one point, and I don't think he's risen up to 9 just yet).

[petroleumjelly]

Doh'eth. ><

Well, at least I finally get to say I accidentally hammered somebody, now.

[petroleumjelly]

Carolyn Shelby, my turtle dove,
My only Pie, my only love.
In life we lived, in life we played,
In death we go, as man and maid.

Around the town, dog-lovers cry:
"A fitting end for Petroleum Pie!"

<3 Shelby Pie

Bah! Go Town!

[petroleumjelly]

Well done, Alky. *huggle*

Glad to know yet another town has lost yet another game because they were too lazy to pay attention, or reread, or bother thinking about how the claimed roles fit together. This is becoming a very nasty habit.

[petroleumjelly]

Further note: If I remember correctly, something of like 4/6 Doctors all protect Coron on N0. So he can no longer complain about not being protected on N0.