Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Reboot - Game Over, Good wins

[Zdenek]

MoI, want a voting alliance in this game?

Buddying with MoI.

I do. More on this later.
{/quote]

This is Avox wanting us to mass claim after it was obvious had be read the thread that it is terrible idea. It shows that he wasn't reading the thread or seriously considering the repercussions of the plan - which shows that at best he was just interested in getting a post up.

[quoite="AVox"]
Holy shit MoS is in this game. Voting alliance?

Buddying with MoS

So all in all, I see only positives coming from it and those trying to suggest otherwise are fearmongering or don't understand the reasons properly.

Trying to paint people who don't want to mass claim as scummy by accusing them of fear-mongering.

Vote AVox

[Zdenek]

Damn you MoI. I read 22 and practically squealed with glee at finding scum on page 1. But you pointed it out before I could

Scummy for buddying with MoI.

Heh, I like Norman. He makes me chuckle.

Also, I think that wagon on him very well could have a scum, for a lot of people seemed to repeat the same points against him.

@kondi:
I'm not a fan of your #88 or your #91. Have an upvote!

UNVOTE: Shadoweh

VOTE: kondi2424

Soft defense of Norman.
Suggesting that there is scum on the wagon without saying who, but giving a terrible reason for thinking that people are scummy - that they are repeating arguments.

Alright, then, LM. Who have you seen that is a potential partner?

For you or for Norman?

This is an unnecessarily cagey response, and considering that you'd recently quoted him, it should be clear what he was referring to,

I think LordMh is going after an easy target in Kondi, and that he's not really paying attention to the reasons that he's voting him.

The people, at this point, most worried about identifying who is lawful and who is chaotic are the respective scum factions.

We can look back and find who is scummy for wanting in later.

Why postpone it, if you think that it will be useful?

[Zdenek]

And how am I not paying attention to the reasons I voted for him?! Gah! Elaborate if you're going to make accusations like that, yeah?

I think it's pretty obvious.

I haven't seen any potential partners for Norman as of this point. Therefore, my vote is staying on ML.

PEdit: People should stop posting

Heh, I like Norman. He makes me chuckle.

Also, I think that wagon on him very well could have a scum, for a lot of people seemed to repeat the same points against him.

@kondi:
I'm not a fan of your #88 or your #91. Have an upvote!

UNVOTE: Shadoweh

VOTE: kondi2424

Alright, then, LM. Who have you seen that is a potential partner?

Alright, then, LM. Who have you seen that is a potential partner?

For you or for Norman?

Nope, I'm actually the godfather.

So, anyone believe in the scum subconsciously want to tell you that they're scum, scum-tell?

I'm pretty sure that I've seen it work, but I don't have stats on it's success rate.

I can see where MaguaIll is coming from regarding Shadow1psc's play being similar to his play in AFFC, but I wouldn't wnt to lynh Shadow1psc because of this meta arguement.

My other scum read right now is Zdenek. His voting reasons don't feel right. Bringing up voting alliances is just something people do here, it's not indicative of alignment. His points on Mhork I disagree with, people babbling the same thing five times is a good reason to suspect a wagon of being scummy.

AVox's buddying isn't the only reason that I'm voting him, and while it's true that suggesting an alliance isn't scummy, buddying can be. Someone disagreeing with you is not a scumtell. I do not think that someone who over reacts as town is unlikely to do it as scum, I don't agree with your meta argument that he's town at all. Finally, I disagree with your take on wagons for a couple of reasons, scum are reasonably likely to try to stay off of wagons early on day one and to avoid being accused of sheeping scum will also often try to avoid it.

Just a quick check-in to correct a mistake. I messed up the quotes trying to trim down my post. I'm not actually voting AurorusVox.

unvote

You should.

[Zdenek]

Green Knight, AVox is summier, the fact that you also think that he's scummy, shows to me that you were actually scum hunting, and plus this is a multiscum game, so it doesn't make any sense to not vote someone because one other person, who you have had doubts about, is voting him.

ShaedowEh, the other reason that I am voting AVox is that he continued to push for the mass claim after it should have been obvious that it was a bad idea had he been reading the thread, so I don't think that he was seriously considering it, but was just arguing for it, for the sake of arguing. It stuck me as a disingenuous proposal.

[Zdenek]

I can totally grasp why people find Norman scummy, but on the other hand I am not reading him as scum, and his lynch is one that I don't see myself supporting, unless someone has a better argument for why he's scum than those that have already been presented.

I especially dislike LMP's attack against him for voting Kondi because they were both voting that slot for the same reason, trying to blend in and I find the idea that a vote is worse for coming immediately after a vote count distasteful.

Tammy has found her way onto my scum list with her recent posts. She looks to me like she is trying to be aggressively unhelpful by questioning people's attacks (just to be clear, the issue I have is with the volume of these sorts of posts coming from her, I don't actually think that doing it is necessarily scummy). For example:

Also, what about Rang Tangler screamed scum at you?

You were voting Zdenek in the last thread and now you're voting AurorusVox. Did you change your mind about Zdenek?

Is there anything else you find suspicious about Shadow1 besides him changing his vote to CoolDog after getting called out for keeping his vote on Foxace while calling him town?

You highlighted that you are voting Norman for using think and might in regards to someone maybe being a scumbag. Do you find that scum are more likely to use words which make one seem unsure or town?How often do you tend to find scum by word choice?

Additionally, the fact that she is not voting reeks of unnecessarily cautious play, especially when she's been attacking Foxace. I looks as though she's checking to see if she can drum up support for the wagon before getting on.

I'd still like LMP to explain his rationale behind his strategy of lynching to maintain balance between the sides.

[Zdenek]

Tammy, The posts that I quoted show you questioning other people's attacks on people. The issue with this is that by doing that, you are softly defending the people who are under attack. At best this is antitown because you are reducing the pressure on the people under attack without actually committing to saying that you think they are town, and at worst it is scummy because should one of these people end up being lynched and flipping town, you can garner credibility for having defended them. So the issue isn't that you were asking questions, it's the sort of questions that you were asking consistently while not taking stances on very few things.

There's also no contradiction between me thinking that you were being aggressively unhelpful by questioning people's arguments against others and that you were being overly cautious by not voting. They are both things that were doing and both scummy (and for that matter, not voting at this stage of the game is really unhelpful).

[Zdenek]

Tammy, you telling me what you do or would do is pointless. All I can do is look at what you are doing and comment on it, and what I see is you asking a lot of questions and not taking many stances. You say that these questions will help you form your opinions, but I am not going to wait to see if that happens before commenting.

You're right about questions two and three, I meant to comment on them seperately. In question two you are trying to direct greenknight's attention back onto me without saying that you think I'm scummy or that the attention is warranted, and in question three you're trying to get Riggs to give a stronger case on Pine, again without taking a since yourself.

Although Zdenek - by your own logic, now that you've questioned my questions to those people, are you defending them by asserting that my questions are invalid?

So, you were attacking people by asking them questions? If that's not the case, then your question makes no sense.

I like Shadoweh's points against Pine.

[Zdenek]

Tammy, first of all comments like this:

I'm glad you're telling me what I'm doing by my questions AFTER I've already told you there's nothing hidden in those questions and I wanted to know exactly what I wanted to know.

are useless. You telling me that there is nothing hidden in you questions doesn't change the fact that I can see alternative motivations behind your questions.

Second of all, in my experience people have all kinds of reasons for doing the things that they are doing, so there is limited (but not no) use in asking people questions. If one thinks that something is scummy or questionable, I think that's it's better to just say so, and see what comes of it. People's reactions are far more telling than there explanations, which are usually at least somewhat reasonable and tell me nothing about their alignment,

So, sure, you could have good reasons for your questions, but those are reasons that could come from town or from scum, and they don't change the fact that can see scum motivation for your questions.

I've already answered your question about GreenKnight.

LMP, players should not have to delay voting, so that their vote doesn't appear immediately following a vote count, to avoid being called scummy. You think Norman's scummy for getting on the next biggest wagon, okay, but the idea that it's worse because it came right after a vote count is one that I have a problem with.

I'd like you to explain the rationale behind your lynching strategy because in my opinion it was an anti-town strategy. What you were suggesting we do was possibly the worst thing that town could have done in this setup. Being wrong isn't a scum tell, but talking for the sake of talking and suggesting a strategy for town to play by without thinking about it's consequences are, so I'm curious how you came up with your strategy.

My vote where it is currently is useless.

Unvote
Vote ShadowEh

[Zdenek]

LMP, players should not have to delay voting, so that their vote doesn't appear immediately following a vote count, to avoid being called scummy. You think Norman's scummy for getting on the next biggest wagon, okay, but the idea that it's worse because it came right after a vote count is one that I have a problem with.

But the point is that the timing of it was evidence that his vote was just to join the next biggest wagon. So the timing is relevant evidence to the exact point you admit is valid. So what's the problem?

I just find it bizarre that you would find his vote less scummy had it come 7 minutes earlier.

I don't play that way. I ask questions - again asking exactly wtf I want to know - and interact with people that way.

And I will continue to think that asking pointless question is scummy even if you flip town.

Oh and you didn't answer my question about greenknight because I never asked you in my barrage of useless scummy underhanded questions before. You responded to greenknight's surprise that you guys were on the same wagon, with Avox is scummier, but didn't say anything about your current thoughts on greenknight. But, nice try to say that you did.

Here is what you asked me:

I'm wondering why YOU aren't voting for Greenknight now since you were in the last thread. You responded to AV but didn't call him scummy in the original thread, so what changed to you thinking that AV was more deserving of a vote than Greenknight now?

Here is what I'd already said:

Green Knight, AVox is summier, the fact that you also think that he's scummy, shows to me that you were actually scum hunting, and plus this is a multiscum game, so it doesn't make any sense to not vote someone because one other person, who you have had doubts about, is voting him.

I totally think that this answers your question, so I don't know what your problem is.

For the record, I'm null on GK.

Right, zdenek gets some scum points for his stupid questioning of Tammy's questions. Asking questions is a fairly common and completely valid playstyle, and I don't like the way z was trying to read so much into them, and his argument looked a little like he was reaching. Also he goes in three hours from 'I like Shadoweh's points against Pine, to voting Shaodweh ( viewtopic.php?p=3926095#p3926095 and viewtopic.php?p=3926204#p3926204).

Asking pointless question is scummy fluff. Asking questions that look like they are getting people to do your dirty work for you are scummy.

Also, this is multiscum.

[Zdenek]

Unvote
Vote: Tammy

[Zdenek]

At this point, I'd be I happy lynching Tammy just so that I don't have to read her fucking posts anymore.

[Zdenek]

Hmmm...interesting. He also asked Skenvoy to have his babies. Is he buddying with Skenvoy as well?

Yes.

AV is voting for RT at this point, is he really buddying? MoI was voting for Shadoweh in the post you quoted that he responded to...is that buddying? MoS wasn't voting for anyone at that point...is that buddying?

I think so. Frankly because of his absence it's impossible to tell if he was serious or not.

Hey, you know what I just realized. You have a propensity for OMGUS. You think you're oh so spheshial because you tell people when they're scummy. I think that bloated BS. You've accused him of buddying with two people for comments that actually don't quite fit in with the rest of his comments in the original thread now that I've re-read him. He seems quite dead serious about his RT vote.

I have no clue what you are trying to get at talking about how serious AVox might have been about his RT vote.

As far as this OMGUS business goes, I am not voting people because they are voting me or have said that they think I am scummy.

You see, he does it openly. You try to veil it like the scum you are.

I find this accusation disingenuous since two of the people who I've voted are people who you have said that you find scummy - AVox and GreenKnight.

1. How is this buddying?

Complementing someone's scum hunting is buddying and buddying with MoI has proven to be an effective scum-tell.

Maybe if you interacted with Pine, you could get a better read on them and determine whether or not they're attempting to buddy. But, that would mean you'd have to ask pointless questions.

Pine has to red the thread and comment on what he thinks is important. That is how I will get a read on him, and I'll ask him questions if necessary.

2. As Mhork said later he was actually defending him

I'm not a mind reader. Mhork didn't say, "I think Norman is town" or anything of the sort. That would have been clearly defending him.

Also, are you seriously suggesting that parroting is not a legitimate scum tell?

I don't think that parroting is a scum tell.

3. Is Kondi and easy target? Or are you buddying?

At the time, with LMP pushing the wagon, he was an easy target.

4. Asking a pointless question in order to appear like you are contributing and interacting with a lot of people.

tt wasn't a pointless question. If someone says, hey I've got a way to hunt scum, but let's not do it yet, they should say why they want to postpone doing it.

1. Good one. It's obvious.

I thought that it was obvious, and I think that if someone comments on a post as short as Kondi's 88, and is then asked about it, he should be able to respond.

I think it's very good of you to not want to lynch someone because of meta. I, myself, try to stay away from meta as much as possible. It's one of the reasons the site I come from regularly employs alts. But *sigh* the fact that meta was already used against you and you defended against the meta in the original thread...it kind of feels disingenuous.

I don't have a problem with Meta arguments in general, but I do have problem with some of them them.

I'm confused. You say that suggesting an alliance isn't scummy but buddying can be. What I read in re-reading Avox was him suggesting a voting alliance, which you've just stated isn't scummy. You've interpreted it as buddying, but can you point out anything more than AV suggesting a voting alliance, which you've stated isn't scummy, to show that he's buddying?

This is the question of whether or not he was serious about that alliance. If he was serious about it, then it's not buddying and it's not scummy. If he wasn't then it could have been buddying.

You say that scum will avoid getting on wagons early? *shakes head in mass confusion* What? Are you serious? Is that really what happens here at this site?

Yes. I am serious and it happens.

Why should I vote AVox? Because you say so?

Fake contributions to discussion that show he didn't read the thread before speaking and the blanket accusation of people who didn't want to mass-claim of fear mongering.

[Zdenek]

The only thing that I don't like about Pine's claim is that he embellished it by saying that it was for hunting down lawful evil players, as opposed to lawful players, which includes the town group that he would be happy lynching from. However, this is something that will work itself out in time, so there is no way I'd want to lynch Pine today.

Shadoweh's 627 is just babbling, since she doesn't take into account the possibility of scum having alignment cops.

Foxace's self-vote is very scummy. He saw how people reacted to Nornan's and now he is doing it himself. For the record I have seen the "second self vote in the thread" scum-tell twice.

1. Ortiz in Rivertown Mafia
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15883

2. Hiraki in NY: 141
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19048

wrote:And I will continue to think that asking pointless question is scummy even if you flip town.

This demonstrates you are either terrible Town or scum then if you stand by this.

Oh please, that is such garbage. A quick skim from your play in Atomic Mafia shows that you used the following reasons there to think that people who flipped town were scummy:

1. Player's dropping easily faked town-slips
2. Player's not being able to answer simple questions regarding stances that they've taken. For instance, saying there are tones of reasons why something is true, and then not being able to provide any.
3. Distancing from flipped scum.
4. Appeasement

I do not believe that you seriously think that none of these things scummy anymore, and suggesting that I am scummy for thinking that just because a town person did something scummy that the tell becomes completely invalid is stupid or scummy. SInce I know you aren't dumb you can guess which way I'm leaning.

You also need to provide support for this assertion with links %u2013 Complementing someone's scum hunting is buddying and buddying with MoI has proven to be an effective scum-tell. I appreciate it.

Here's one for complementing someone's scum hunting. Sageamagoo Post 423 AdjectivePick
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3452361
I'm not going to bother hunting down more.

For buddying with MoI there's Diddin and Conspiracy from Atomic Mafia, and I could find others.

MOI's 656 is godly.

That is incredibly ironic considering this:

Just because a behavior can come from town doesn't exclude it from being a scum tell. It just has to be weighted accordingly and judged appropriately. So you really don't know what the hell you're talking about.

and

wrote:And I will continue to think that asking pointless question is scummy even if you flip town.

This demonstrates you are either terrible Town or scum then if you stand by this.

[Zdenek]

Those last two quotes don't seem to be mutually exclusive...am I missing something?

I could repond to that, but I'd like to hear what MoI and LMP have to say first.

[Zdenek]

Just to be clear, it's not just that Tammy's questions were pointless, as I've already pointed out, the main issue was that they were attacking other people's attacks on people (which I think is being aggressively unhelpful) and others looked like she was trying to direct people's attention onto others to them to do her dirty work for her.

[Zdenek]

Unvote
Vote: Foxace

[Zdenek]

^

Another reason the wagon smells like crap.

No. it's awesome.

[Zdenek]

I'm mean, I'm town, Pine's town, there's scum on the wagon, but that's FoxAce, so who cares.

[Zdenek]

@Zdenek 676- I think this is the hydras first game, but I could be wrong.

The heads are Magua and MagnaofIllusion, and I'm pretty sure that I was responding to MoI. If I wasn't, I could do the same thing for Magua because of how out of line that comment was with how anyone one rational plays mafia.

1. So you know that the head who responded to you was in Atomic Mafia? How is that again?2. For sake of argument %u2013 even if that was the case why are you A. Using a single game as meta evidence that we are scum? Especially one where said head was Town and you just came of a game where you were SCUM PARNTERS with that head! Scumtasic!B. Asserting that calling you terrible Town or scum has anything to do with the fact that your tell is valid? Pro-Tip %u2013 it%u2019s not. Your assertion stopped being relevant when you said her questions were %u201Cworthless%u201D. They aren%u2019t IMO and you pushing them as such is scummy.Afraid to directly call us scum Zdenek?

Those quotes from one game weren't to call you scummy, they were to refute:

And I will continue to think that asking pointless question is scummy even if you flip town.

This demonstrates you are either terrible Town or scum then if you stand by this. Your laser focus solely on Tammy to the extent of ignoring the rest of the thread is noted.

So the fact that the head was town was actually important.

Where are your links? Why didn%u2019t you find the others?

I'm not your secretary. If you want to debate the validity of tell fine, but I've given my opinion and some evidence for it.

Oh, so now it isn%u2019t just that Tammy was asking pointless questions? Why didn%u2019t that appear earlier in your reasoning? Why is attacking what you perceive to be bad logic in other%u2019s attacks a scum-tell? Reasons %u2026 you are lacking them!!!

It did appear earlier - repeatedly even. Try reading the thread.
I don't understand your second question.

[Zdenek]

Tammy, please tell me how my logic falls apart: not all of your questions have to pointless for some of them to be, not all of your questions have to be subtly defending someone for some of them to do that, and not all of them have to direct people's attention on to others for some of them to do that.

[Zdenek]

@Greenknight - Why would scum love early policy lynches? They don't kill the ones who don't contribute/are VI's because they want them around. They nightkill the players who are actually playing the game, and leave the distractions alive to hide behind/manipulate in the end.

Because everyone on a policy lynch is essentially making the same argument, it leaves very few trails in the voting compared to a regular lynch where people have to justify why they personally think the target is scummy. Since the way in which people pursue their targets is a primary scum hunting resource, that's a lot of information lost from a town perspective at the point in the game where town has the least information.

Since you mentioned Trekker in this context, I think he is actually scummy due to the extreme non-interactivity of his posts to date and wouldn't really be a policy lynch...

Why did you feel the need to mention "when I flip town" in your argument with Zdenek? Do you think it's at all likely that you will be lynched today?

Beyond that this sentiment is ridiculous. It prompted MoI in 656 to tell him he's either terrible town or scum to stand by the claim that he'll still consider the questions scummy even if I flip town. He tried to substantiate his logical fallacy by using as evidence a statement by LMP in 660 in which he said that just because an innocent does something, in this case word choice, it doesn't mean it's not a scum tell.

No. That is not what is happening. MoI's statement is one of the most bizarre in the game because no one plays like that. I gave MoI a list of things that he has used as scum-tells in the past and the people that he used them on flipped town, so the question is: does he still think that any of those things are scummy?

I quoted LMP because of his praise for MoI's post where he made the comment you are talking about, which came in the same post where he said that it is possible for town to do scummy things.

[Zdenek]

Wait, Zd, do you think norman is also scum for not scum hunting effectively? Trekker?

My point's not that Tammy wasn't scum hunting effectively. It's the type of questions she was asking combined with not taking stances. I don't think that not scum hunting effectively is a scum-tell under most circumstances.

[Zdenek]

What do you think of trekker not asking a single question all game long?

I think he's an idiot, and because of that, I don't find his behaviour unexpected or scummy. I'd be fine with his lynch, but for me it would be a policy lynch, since there is no way that I'll be able to get a reasonable read on him if he keeps playing this way.

[Zdenek]

What about MoS? He doesn't seem to be an active scum hunter. Why are you almost exclusively attacking tammy for this.

I'm not attacking Tammy just for for not scum hunting, and I also think that she's improved somewhat since she's started taking stances on somethings. It's a shame that one of things is me being scum, but there's nothing I can do about that.

I wouldn't object to lynching MoS, but there are people I'd rather lynch.

[Zdenek]

What about MoS? He doesn't seem to be an active scum hunter. Why are you almost exclusively attacking tammy for this.

That is a very good question.

Not it's not, since that isn't what I was doing. Considering that I'd answered CD's question before you made this comment, you are clearly misrepresenting what I've said.

Tammy, I'm still waiting for you to explain who my logic falls apart.

[Zdenek]

So MoS is scum who's decided to not read the thread and snipe from the sidelines.

[Zdenek]

@Zdenek

– You seem confused. You keep framing the issue regarding your suspicion of Tammy as this head making statement he can’t possibly believe based on my past. That’s continually dodging the issue.

The facets of your ‘case’ on Tammy are as follows per the thread

1. Asking pointless questions – you haven’t proven that the questions Tammy are asking are pointless and not valid scum-hunting.
2. She isn’t taking stances – not valid.
3. That questioning Player A’s attack on Player B is scummy if Tammy isn’t Player B – again it isn’t scummy to point out scummy attacks players are making on others. That’s usually scum-hunting, especially if her points are valid (which they are, IMO). For example I’ve been doing that with you in regards to Tammy.

My position on why you are either terrible Town or scum is rooted directly in the fact that you’ve been making scummy attacks on Tammy. She’s a pretty solid Town read for both heads and the manner you are approaching her is scummy IMO.

I haven't dodged anything. If that's what your comment was meant to mean, it's incredibly vague.

Here's more evidence of what Tammy is doing, and since you seem to not believe that is something that scum would do, here's an example:

Compare Tammy's play to Darth Yoshi's play in Nexusville Mafia.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=16263

Darth Yoshi questioning other people's attacks:

Nameless--what exactly is bothering you about Ninja's posts (I presume you're talking about the ones directed at WoMC and Neko)?

KTS--how does being eager to accuse work as a scumtell for you? Really, how do all those other behaviors you describe of Saint work as scumtells

Tammy questioning other people's attacks:

Have you found that scum is more likely to not read the rules?

Why should I vote AVox? Because you say so? Give me a better reason than OMGUS. Give me a better reason than the crap you provided.

This one is specifically bad, since she'd previously agreed with me about AVox's quote saying that everyone against the mass claim was fear mongering.

Darth Yoshi using questions to get other people to do his dirty work:

Like Ice, I really don’t like Implosion’s #152, in part because of what Ice says in #158, but especially because one could say the exact same thing about Mongoose being an “easy target” as one could about _over9000, and that is who Implosion’s vote is on at the moment. Implosion, why point this out in _over9000’s case and not Mongoose, especially when your vote is on Mongoose?

I’m also curious about your read on Mongoose—you say in #224 that he lurks as scum, but you also say in your very next post that you played with Mongoose and this wasn’t his scum play—but Mongoose has spent a lot of time lurking or just not being around (including, I would consider, the present moment, with him having checked in some time ago, but w/ still no content). This looks odd.

Tammy usinging questions to get other people to do her dirty work:

What are your reasons for wanting to lynch Pine?

How are his word choices any different than trekker's which I'm to take you have a good opinion of?

Darth Yoshi asking questions instead of taking stances:

Nameless, the coin flip seems really odd when you basically went ahead and did quick reads of the players right after you voted anyways. Why didn't you just do that before you voted?

why were you casting suspicion on one bandwagon when you explicitly encouraged the other?

Tammy asking questions instead of taking stances:

Congratulations. Do you have a contribution to make?

He asks in post 212 why people always get a newb reading on him, but in post #669 in response to Pine's vote on him, he says "Probably thinking it's be easy to get a noob townie like myself lynched." Why originally sound annoyed to have people getting a newb reading then characterize yourself as a noob?

Why is he doing it in such a similar manner as Norman did? Is he hoping it's going to get him less heat or something. Also, what's up with building a case on Pine afterwards and not bothering to move his vote from himself to Pine?

I've already posted other examples of Tammy doing these things, so these are not isolated events.

The fact that there is scum motivation in playing like this is plain to see, so the fact that you are attacking for attacking Tammy is ridiculous.

I also want you to explain your town read her.

[Zdenek]

You keep trying to re-frame the discussion in every response in the manner that suggests you are absolutely correct and everyone who takes issue with you is crazy / scum.

Funnily enough that is exactly how I feel.

Let%u2019s being by saying the following %u2013 the basis of your %u2018tells%u2019 on Tammy is a single game of DarthYoshi%u2019s meta? Have you looked to see whether Town DarthYoshi plays as demonstrated here? I doubt it very much since you very much look like you are trying to frame a playstyle as scummy. I%u2019m not going to ask you to provide Tammy scum meta since I doubt very much there is any here on MS.

My argument against Tammy is not a meta argument. It's a she's making posts that have possible scum intent: avoiding taking stances is scummy, trying to get people to focus on others rather than doing it yourself is scummy and defending people by questioning other people's attacks on them is (somewhat) scummy. The scum intent is clear - playing like this avoids conflict while creating conflict between other players, and defending people from others attacks is buddying with the person being attacked and if the person being attacked is lynched and flips town, it increases the players credibility in the thread. Now, I am providing evidence that these are actually things that scum do, and I chose Darth Yoshi's play in that game because it bears such a close resemblance.

So you agree that you can see where my other head is coming from in regards to Shadow1psc but %u2018don%u2019t want to lynch him for meta%u201D while here you are pushing Tammy strongly on meta that isn%u2019t even her own meta. That makes zero sense from an honest, Town scum-hunting perspective.

I was pretty specific about it being that meta argument and not meta in general, and moreover, my argument against Tammy's not a meta argument. Keep grasping MoI.

I don%u2019t believe you have proven at it is behavior MORE LIKELY to come from scum or that you have even proven your points are valid at all. Why the continued attempts to state things that are not accurate about my posting?

I don't care about doing that, and frankly no one does it. If you want to start holding everyone to that standard fine, but I've said what I see Tammy doing. The fact that there is scum motivation to play this way is clear, and now I've provided evidence that scum do in fact play like this.

If you're going to continue to debate the validity of my accusation, you can provide some examples of your own. Otherwise you are just blowing hot air.

Do you think it was reasonable for Shadow1psc to use %u2018Not reading or understanding the rules%u2019 as a scum-tell.

Personally, I don't think this is a tell, but I can see how people could come to the conclusion that is.

Furthermore %u2013 why is agreement with you on 1 point about AV indicates she has to have a scum-read on him?

It doesn't, but rather than acknowledging her agreement with that, she decided to attack that entire argument with the blanket of it being terrible.

Tammy usinging questions to get other people to do her dirty work:

Aside from the fact that this isn’t a scum-tell or even valid (Tammy is certainly providing plenty of scum-hunting content independently) the examples you give ( Post 587 and Post 592 ) are examples of her scum-hunting via digging into the motives and statements made by others.

It is a scum-tell and you're wrong.

Tammy asking questions instead of taking stances:

Are you suggesting that Tammy is taking no stances with your selective quoting here?

I don't have to find everything that Tammy's done scummy to find some of the things that she's done scummy, and I've already said that she's started look a bit better in my eyes, but there is no chance that I am going to say that these things that she's done are not scummy.

She’s posting solid, readable content.

Not a town-tell.

The questions she is asking make complete sense from a Town perspective

It's certainly not the case that they all do.

… I’ve found myself nodding my head at various points she is making in her posts. Her stances are very much Town stances – being open to discussion in the course of scum-hunting

That's cute, but it's a shitty reason for you to think that she's town.

but not afraid to share her opinion.

At times, she has certainly failed to.

MoI's entire defense of Tammy is contrived bullshit as have been his attacks on me.

Vote MaguaofIllusion

[Zdenek]

Tammy's opinion of me is incomprehensible:

If he is town, I can have a bit of sympathy for him because I recently got myself in a similar spot. Not long ago, I was certain I'd found a member of the scum team (I had) and another townie thought he had found a member of the scum team (he had). Problem was we had town reads on each other's scum reads. Glorious hilarity ensued in which we ended up suspecting each other over it for being partners or traitors to the one's we suspected. He made cases which looked rather odd to me and provoked me to make a big case against him. I was certain I was right, and refused to accept the possibility that I was wrong and he was telling me the truth. It didn't end until he became the grand recipient of a mislynch led by me.

Here she tells a long story about a situation that she believes is similar to the one that she and I in, where she says that she could have sympathy for me in this game because as town she was in a similar situation.

Compare this to Tammy's previous comments:

In post 518 where she deduces that I must be scum.
In post 574 where she calls me belligerently ignorant scum.

Basically, she's played enough to know that town's people have disagreements and can be wrong, but when I am wrong about her, I must be belligerently ignorant scum.

Moreover, she regularly fence-sits when it comes to her opinion of me. She argues vigorously that I must be scum, and then turns around and argues that if I am am town, then I am dangerous to the town, which reads like scum trying to pick up credibility points regardless of how i flip in case I die, and preemptively put a positive spin on lynching me regardless of my alignment.

Also, Tammy has said that she does't like meta arguments:

I'm sure your meta is great, but I'm not going to read it. I have very limited experience with people on this site (3 people in this game were in a game I was briefly in before the crash), and I do my best to not allow meta into a current game.

have very limited experience with this site and generally try to stay away from meta as much as I can anyway.

But, a large part of her defense against my attacks have been that asking questions are part of her play style:

That's your playstyle...great, if it works for you it works for you. I don't play that way. I ask questions - again asking exactly wtf I want to know - and interact with people that way.

I don't really care what you think is more beneficial for you. That's your playstyle...great, if it works for you it works for you. I don't play that way. I ask questions - again asking exactly wtf I want to know - and interact with people that way.

Seriously? I think I gave you too much credit by thinking that you might actually understand that there are different play styles. Turns out you're not just scum, but you're also belligerently ignorant. Good for you.

Also,

If Zdenek is town, he's doing what I did in that game. Thankfully, I don't get stuck in confirmation bias often as I actively try not to. One of the ways I do that is by asking people questions, asking them for their reads, why they suspect people and why they don't. I also accept the possibility that people are telling me the truth about their intentions and motives and balance it with the rest of their behavior.

I'm not stuck in confirmation bias, when you started to take stances on things, I said that you started to look better. If I was stuck in confirmation bias that wouldn't be happening, so this is just an underhanded way to try to undermine my argument.

And moreover, her comments like "I've tried to let this situation end" are fucking disingenuous considering her posts, and make no sense because if she actually thought I was scum, she would want me dead and would be pushing this issue, not trying to let it end.

Anyway, I'd be happy with lynching MoI, Foxace or Tammy, but at this point. I'll move my vote to Foxace at the deadline to get a lynch if necessary, but at this point, I think Tammy is most likely to flip scum, and I'd like more votes on her.

Vote Tammy

[Zdenek]

@zde, would you put more effort into other people? We have heard every possible angle as to why you think tammy is scum. Yet your other suspicions are horribly underdeveloped.

Later. I'm actually pretty happy with how this day is going. I have a scum read on the person's who has got the most votes, and I'm pushing a couple of other things now.

Yes, it's a bit of meta, I'm trying to explain myself and my playstyle to you. I thought it you did happen to be town, and rational, we could come to a bit of an understanding.

Look Tammy, you've obviously played enough mafia to know that "It's my playstyle" is not a defense, so that fact that you are so worked up over me rejecting it makes no sense at all.

Well let%u2019s be frank then %u2013 you%u2019ve failed to make an argument that what are accusing Tammy of is more likely to come from scum.

No one plays like that, and to require that sort of demonstration for scum tells makes little sense. As far as I am concerned this is scum-MoI blowing hot air.

1. You%u2019ve failed to address the fact that I showed that Tammy was taking stances and that your examples were taken out of context in a scummy fashion.

2. You%u2019ve failed to address how I showed that Tammy was not %u2018trying to get people to focus on others rather than doing it yourself%u201D.

3. You%u2019ve failed to show how her attacking people for suspect attacks on others is scummy or even inaccurate.

4. You%u2019ve failed to show how she is buddying anyone.

1. and 3. This is part of a pattern in her behaviour in the early game. It's the sum total of what she was doing, not the individual things.
2. Yes, I have.
4. I disagree.

Directly linking to scum play in another game is a meta argument at it%u2019s core (bad or good) whether you want to frame it as such or not.

It's not because I could find other examples too. Unless you are trying to argue that every scum it a meta argument at it's core, in which case, fuck off.

So it isn%u2019t a valid tell but you wouldn%u2019t say using it as a tell is scummy then. How%u2019s that post feel?

People disagree about scum-tells all the time, so it's not an indicator of alignment, but I have no clue what you asking.

Please link me to this because I don%u2019t recall seeing that behavior.

Here are the quotes:

I agree that the fearmongering quote was bad. It's one of the things I don't like about Avox.

4. Why should I vote AVox? Because you say so? Give me a better reason than OMGUS. Give me a better reason than the crap you provided. Eh...I like my vote right where it is.

Mastin, I think there are six scum in the game - two towns of 13 each and each with 3 scum.
I'll write the summary you are asking for tomorrow/Saturday.

[Zdenek]

Everyone: That's every single other player in the game.I want, in your own words, your summary of how the game has gone so far.At the same time, I'd also like you to tell me how many scum you think are in the game--I know this game is a lil' unusual, but I imagine that there is a scum faction out there.And of course, who they are--not a single person; I want you to give me a whole team. Plus of course the reasoning you think they're scum together.

The first important event of the game was the discussion about whether or not we should mass-claim lawful or chaotic. Dispite the fact that it was fairly clear that it was a bad idea, it was difficult to convince some people of that. My concerns coming out of this are primarily on LMP who proposed what I see as almost the most anti-town scheme possible, in the sense that if we used it then we'd be in LYLO very fast, if we failed to lynch town, I'm also suspicious of AVox for pushing the idea of a mass-claim without reading the thread before doing so, and the accusing everyone against it of fear mongering.

Since the break because of the crash a substantial amount of the game has been focussed on Norman because of his obvious trolling. Personally I have a town read on him coming from this because of how he reacted when he decided that it hadn't worked. I think that scum would be more included to keep up the act and push lynches resulting from their efforts.,

Pine was somewhat scummy for sucking up to MoI, and then apparently being unavailable to post. He got several people to mention they they felt he was scummy, but not a lot of votes. He noticed this and claimed Chaotic-Lawful cop. I would not support a Pine lynch today.

One thing that could be of importance that came out of Norman's play is that Foxace id not confirm that he saw Empking reading the thread, after Norman claimed that he saw both of them in the thread reading it during the day, and later Empking even said that he had been there. Should Foxace flip scum, I think that there is a very good chance that Rmpking is scum with him.

At a certain point Foxace became obviously scum. He was being cautious with his vote, and then he voted to appease Norman and Shadow1psc. Later he self-voted, copying Norman, and I contend that this was an attempt to garner the same reaction that Norman got when he started telling people to lynch him.

Tammy also became obviously scum around now because her questions were designed to cause trouble as opposed to scum-hunt.

I think that Tammy is clearly scum, and I have spent a substantial amount of time dealing with that, so I won't comment further here.

I've also think that MoI is scum. Roughly, the reasons are that his attacks on me are either based on him not reading the thread or him willfully misrepresenting my posts. He has created a ridiculously high standard for what he will accept as a scum-tell, but thinks that attacking Tammy is scummy because to him she is obviously town, and his reasons for thinking that Tammy is town are not nearly strong enough for that sort of stance to make any sense, MoI's attacks on me are not the only ones that have been born out of a misrepresentation, see for instance his first vote on Briz since the game restarted.

MoS is also very likely scum because he is content to snipe from the sidelines.

I think that the three of them

- MoI
- Tammy
- MoS

make for a very likely scum team. I believe that MoI, being aware of his reputation for bussing has decided to instead defend his scum-buddy Tammy in this game. Tammy has stated in the thread that she thinks that sniping from the side-lines is scummy, but she fails to ever take a strong stance on MoS. Finally MoS jumped to MoI's defense when Feysal presented his case on MoI. There are a few other notable interactions between them: Tammy fence-sitting on MoI in 455, and MoI telling MoS to stop trying to bait suspicion,


Another obvious scum in this game is Foxace. I won't bother presenting a case on him here.

I do not see any reason to think that Empking is town, and I think that there is a good chance that he is buddies with Foxace , so he join hims on the other scum team. The third member of this team scum team is harder for me to pin down at the moment. The candidates are any of my "null to somewhat scummy reads:"

lord Mhork
AVox
LMP
peregrine (lurking)
Shadoweh
greenknight
Skenvoy BBmolla

Going over this list, the scummiest is Shadoweh for distancing from the Foxace wagon, which she is on, but the fact that she did that makes it unlikely that she is scum with him.

The fact that LMP was defending Foxace makes him a potential buddy,

AVox and LM have both made be feel a bit better about them in recent posts, so for now I'm going with a second team of

- Foxace
- Empking
- LMP

Should Foxace flip town, Shadoweh would skyrocket up the scum-list, but since I don't think that will happen, I won't bother discussing the consequences of it now,.

[Zdenek]

2. Nice of you to once again clip the portion where I tell you that what you said about AVox was crap. I never once denied agreeing with you that his fearmongering statement was bad, but once again, I'm within my rights as a rational human being to believe that just because I agree with you on one aspect of a read does not mean that I have to agree with you on the entire read.

I'd like to summarize Tammy's positions on AVox throughout the game, just so that they are clear to everyone. Hopefully, they will also make clear one of the reasons why Tammy is scum.

MoI: I have actually, he was scum in the first Newbie 1180 we played together. Unfortunately Tigers ate everything after Day 1 so you can't see exactly how British he is. (Or that he's scum. O_o DarthYoshi is his partner). I've read him as town since Post #164. He sounds downright goofy in it and the language is the same he used in NY 147 Vanillaside. (which does not exist -_-) Basically as town he's not careful with his language.

Sigh. Rereading the old thread I actually had these same concerns about Lemon just being an easy target. I supose for a scum he'd be pretty committed to pissing people off, and he has actually put down an original vote now. I will entertain the idea that he's the same class as Norman right now.

Obviously Bards. Only bards could be this useless.

On the other hand I also recall the problems Zdenek is talking about with AVox. And agreeing with them. And thinking Zdenek was town. <_< Rereading is your friend!

##Unvote
##Vote: AVox

Cut: Norman stop posting.

I kind of want to vote you just for what I bolded. I've played a bard before and was anything but useless.

I want to put this here to demonstrate the severe asymmetry in Tammy's responses. Here she says nothing about AVox or the reasons that Shadoweh thinks that he might be scummy.

AVox - Didn't like his attitude in the last thread and certainly don't like that he hasn't made an appearance here yet.

AVox shows up in her top three scum list.

I agree that the fearmongering quote was bad. It's one of the things I don't like about Avox.

She agrees with me about the fear mongering.

Oh MoI - I said that AV was 3rd on my scum reads earlier. I retract that now. I've had chance to re-read him in the original thread. I still don't like his position nor do I like his attitude or the fact that he hasn't shown up, but obnoxious doesn't mean scum and I want to see what he has to offer. I like some of what he says, and am really hating the two that are on his wagon.

Now she backtracks. Still saying that she doesn't like his position and she's vague about the things that she likes. This is an incredibly weak argument for changing a read.

4. Why should I vote AVox? Because you say so? Give me a better reason than OMGUS. Give me a better reason than the crap you provided

Is where she finishes off.


This represents an irrational change of a read, and it's one of the reasons that Tammy is scum.

[Zdenek]

Sigh %u2026 if it was a pattern of her behavior in the %u2018early part of the game%u2019 why did all your examples stem not from that periods?

This is false:

I can totally grasp why people find Norman scummy, but on the other hand I am not reading him as scum, and his lynch is one that I don't see myself supporting, unless someone has a better argument for why he's scum than those that have already been presented.

I especially dislike LMP's attack against him for voting Kondi because they were both voting that slot for the same reason, trying to blend in and I find the idea that a vote is worse for coming immediately after a vote count distasteful.

Tammy has found her way onto my scum list with her recent posts. She looks to me like she is trying to be aggressively unhelpful by questioning people's attacks (just to be clear, the issue I have is with the volume of these sorts of posts coming from her, I don't actually think that doing it is necessarily scummy). For example:

Also, what about Rang Tangler screamed scum at you?

You were voting Zdenek in the last thread and now you're voting AurorusVox. Did you change your mind about Zdenek?

Is there anything else you find suspicious about Shadow1 besides him changing his vote to CoolDog after getting called out for keeping his vote on Foxace while calling him town?

You highlighted that you are voting Norman for using think and might in regards to someone maybe being a scumbag. Do you find that scum are more likely to use words which make one seem unsure or town?How often do you tend to find scum by word choice?

Additionally, the fact that she is not voting reeks of unnecessarily cautious play, especially when she's been attacking Foxace. I looks as though she's checking to see if she can drum up support for the wagon before getting on.

I'd still like LMP to explain his rationale behind his strategy of lynching to maintain balance between the sides.

Tammy, you telling me what you do or would do is pointless. All I can do is look at what you are doing and comment on it, and what I see is you asking a lot of questions and not taking many stances. You say that these questions will help you form your opinions, but I am not going to wait to see if that happens before commenting.

You're right about questions two and three, I meant to comment on them seperately. In question two you are trying to direct greenknight's attention back onto me without saying that you think I'm scummy or that the attention is warranted, and in question three you're trying to get Riggs to give a stronger case on Pine, again without taking a since yourself.

Although Zdenek - by your own logic, now that you've questioned my questions to those people, are you defending them by asserting that my questions are invalid?

So, you were attacking people by asking them questions? If that's not the case, then your question makes no sense.

I like Shadoweh's points against Pine.

[Zdenek]

He could be paranoid scum.

But in all honesty I don't see anything wrong with tammy. I see that she is getting bogged down a bit by all the redundant questions that zde is asking. Pro-tip, if he keeps asking the same thing just quote your previous post and say, "here it is dip shit, deal with it". What are your scumspects btw.

What redundant questions have I asked her?

[Zdenek]

I'm also suspicious of AVox for pushing the idea of a mass-claim without reading the thread before doing so, and the accusing everyone against it of fear mongering.

Whaa?
I read the thread back then. What are you talking about?

AVox, you argued in favour of a mass claim after it should have been clear from the arguments in the thread that it was a terrible idea.

[Zdenek]

I think you're a blatherer,

What are you considering as "blathering?"

[Zdenek]

I'm also suspicious of AVox for pushing the idea of a mass-claim without reading the thread before doing so, and the accusing everyone against it of fear mongering.

Whaa?
I read the thread back then. What are you talking about?

AVox, you argued in favour of a mass claim after it should have been clear from the arguments in the thread that it was a terrible idea.

Due to a misunderstanding of the rules, not due to not reading.

Oh, but it's cool to make stuff up right?

I don't know that.

[Zdenek]

Almost every single thing you have brought against me has been your willful and deliberate mischaracterization of my actions and words. You've selectively quoted things to make me look a certain way which is completely opposite of my intent, and every time I've tried to explain it to you, you ignore it.

Examples or shut up.

LOL at the idea of our scum team. Seriously, there isn't an emoticon that can clearly show the fits of laughter this has put me into.

Okay Tammy. Who else is scum and what are the teams?

I didn't say that it changed my town read, just that it was a bit jarring.

Then what did you mean when you said jarring?

Are you suggesting that someone who does not share the same opinion of you is suspicious?

No. I've explained this already.

If you do happen to be town Zdenek, you really need to remember that this is a team game and you need to figure out a way to work with your team.

If you are you are town, then you are too stupid to be playing mafia. I do not know who is scum and I do not know who is on my team. The fact that you think that you are trying to make me look bad for this ridiculous reason is another reason that you are scum.

Can someone tell me how to post more than one quote in a post? Is there a multi-quote function or do you just copy and paste or something?

quote tags.
Also if you select text and hit the quote button, if will only quote the selected text.

There are more posts of me talking about AVox in the thread you know. There's also one more statement that you clipped so as not to include in this post. That statement would be me questioning your claim of AVox's buddying. INTERESTING how you fail to include that.

Direct me to the quote that I omitted that explains how your read on him developed. You asking a question, is not the same as you taking a stance.

How is post 419 relevant at all to your summary?

It shows Shadoweh saying that she thinks that AVox is scum, and you have no problem with her reasons when she gives them, and then later when I present them you say they are all crap. You don't even question her read.

I...changed my mind? That I remembered having an impression of someone that was suspicious from the old thread, but then after I got a chance to reread that thread...changed my mind?

Then explain how your read changed.

[Zdenek]

I'm a CG commoner.

[Zdenek]

Spoiler: zde's next wall on tammy

Almost every single thing you have brought against me has been your willful and deliberate mischaracterization of my actions and words. You've selectively quoted things to make me look a certain way which is completely opposite of my intent, and every time I've tried to explain it to you, you ignore it.

Examples or shut up.

LOL at the idea of our scum team. Seriously, there isn't an emoticon that can clearly show the fits of laughter this has put me into.

Okay Tammy. Who else is scum and what are the teams?

I didn't say that it changed my town read, just that it was a bit jarring.

Then what did you mean when you said jarring?

Are you suggesting that someone who does not share the same opinion of you is suspicious?

No. I've explained this already.

If you do happen to be town Zdenek, you really need to remember that this is a team game and you need to figure out a way to work with your team.

If you are you are town, then you are too stupid to be playing mafia. I do not know who is scum and I do not know who is on my team. The fact that you think that you are trying to make me look bad for this ridiculous reason is another reason that you are scum.

Can someone tell me how to post more than one quote in a post? Is there a multi-quote function or do you just copy and paste or something?

quote tags.
Also if you select text and hit the quote button, if will only quote the selected text.

There are more posts of me talking about AVox in the thread you know. There's also one more statement that you clipped so as not to include in this post. That statement would be me questioning your claim of AVox's buddying. INTERESTING how you fail to include that.

Direct me to the quote that I omitted that explains how your read on him developed. You asking a question, is not the same as you taking a stance.

How is post 419 relevant at all to your summary?

It shows Shadoweh saying that she thinks that AVox is scum, and you have no problem with her reasons when she gives them, and then later when I present them you say they are all crap. You don't even question her read.

I...changed my mind? That I remembered having an impression of someone that was suspicious from the old thread, but then after I got a chance to reread that thread...changed my mind?

Then explain how your read changed.

Spoiler: zde's wall on tammy before that

2. Nice of you to once again clip the portion where I tell you that what you said about AVox was crap. I never once denied agreeing with you that his fearmongering statement was bad, but once again, I'm within my rights as a rational human being to believe that just because I agree with you on one aspect of a read does not mean that I have to agree with you on the entire read.

I'd like to summarize Tammy's positions on AVox throughout the game, just so that they are clear to everyone. Hopefully, they will also make clear one of the reasons why Tammy is scum.

MoI: I have actually, he was scum in the first Newbie 1180 we played together. Unfortunately Tigers ate everything after Day 1 so you can't see exactly how British he is. (Or that he's scum. O_o DarthYoshi is his partner). I've read him as town since Post #164. He sounds downright goofy in it and the language is the same he used in NY 147 Vanillaside. (which does not exist -_-) Basically as town he's not careful with his language.

Sigh. Rereading the old thread I actually had these same concerns about Lemon just being an easy target. I supose for a scum he'd be pretty committed to pissing people off, and he has actually put down an original vote now. I will entertain the idea that he's the same class as Norman right now.

Obviously Bards. Only bards could be this useless.

On the other hand I also recall the problems Zdenek is talking about with AVox. And agreeing with them. And thinking Zdenek was town. <_< Rereading is your friend!

##Unvote
##Vote: AVox

Cut: Norman stop posting.

I kind of want to vote you just for what I bolded. I've played a bard before and was anything but useless.

I want to put this here to demonstrate the severe asymmetry in Tammy's responses. Here she says nothing about AVox or the reasons that Shadoweh thinks that he might be scummy.

AVox - Didn't like his attitude in the last thread and certainly don't like that he hasn't made an appearance here yet.

AVox shows up in her top three scum list.

I agree that the fearmongering quote was bad. It's one of the things I don't like about Avox.

She agrees with me about the fear mongering.

Oh MoI - I said that AV was 3rd on my scum reads earlier. I retract that now. I've had chance to re-read him in the original thread. I still don't like his position nor do I like his attitude or the fact that he hasn't shown up, but obnoxious doesn't mean scum and I want to see what he has to offer. I like some of what he says, and am really hating the two that are on his wagon.

Now she backtracks. Still saying that she doesn't like his position and she's vague about the things that she likes. This is an incredibly weak argument for changing a read.

4. Why should I vote AVox? Because you say so? Give me a better reason than OMGUS. Give me a better reason than the crap you provided

Is where she finishes off.


This represents an irrational change of a read, and it's one of the reasons that Tammy is scum.

Those posts are not the same. One outlines how Tammy's read on AVox changed without justification and the deals with Tammy's inadequate response to that and other things.

[Zdenek]

MoS, it's here. You jump to make an ill founded attack on Feysal for being crazy or stupid immediately after he posts his case on MoI.

Feysal you crazy if you seriously going to bother discussing whether or not MoI is actually MoI + Magua. I'm pretty sure the two of them would throw a ragefit if someone stole this hydra account name before they got to it. It's fairly obviously them, especially since MoI has already accidentally posted in the thread under his own account.

Derp more, please.

[Zdenek]

Since you have some experience with him, would you say that Zdenek is a player with easily distinguishable town and scum styles?

I only have the one game where I saw Zdenek as town, but I have played against him as scum three times. Based on those, my opinion of his scum play is that it is cautious to the point of being lurky. Currently he is being rather more proactive and belligerent than I'm used to seeing from him as scum.

To give a short answer, I believe his styles are quite distinct, and this is far more likely to be him as town.

Ok, the reason I asked was that in AFFC he was lurky/unreadable scum and I wanted to get an idea whether that was Zdenek's standard scum game and whether he plays that way as town. The reason I picked Zdenek to meta-attack at the start of the old thread was because I wanted to push him out of the same style if he happened to be scum again. If his normal scum style is passive, I think he could well be scum out of his comfort zone this game, and trying too hard to play against his established meta by forcing aggression based on weak arguments.

Vote: Zdenek

Which of my arguments is weak?

[Zdenek]

Anyway, since no one will listen to me about Tammy.

Unvote
Vote MaguaofIllusion

[Zdenek]

With the amount of time left, there's no way we'll rally support for anyone but Foxace today. Maybe if there'd been more enthusiasm for Zdenek, but there isn't. Besides, this doubles as a policy lynch if it's wrong.

Unvote
Vote: Foxace

FWIW I do support a Zdenek lynch, but left my vote on Foxace cause he's the most likely candidate for a day 1 lynch.

Zdenek's attacks and case on Tammy (who I believe is town) over the past few days read to me as scum trying to push a mislynch on a townie that could appear scummy if things are presented in the right manner.

What about my case on Tammy do you disagree with?
Why do you think she is so obviously town, that attacking her is a scum tell.

MoS, it's here. You jump to make an ill founded attack on Feysal for being crazy or stupid immediately after he posts his case on MoI.

Feysal you crazy if you seriously going to bother discussing whether or not MoI is actually MoI + Magua. I'm pretty sure the two of them would throw a ragefit if someone stole this hydra account name before they got to it. It's fairly obviously them, especially since MoI has already accidentally posted in the thread under his own account.

Derp more, please.

How is this a defense of MoI *OR* an attack on Feysal? This had nothing to do with whether either of them were scum, which is why I said it was stupid to be talking about it. I didn't say MoI wasn't scummy, and I didn't say Feysal

was

, nor did I imply such in any way. You're REALLY stretching to make that connection.

Unvote, Vote: Zdenek

Feysal presents a case on MoI, and you call Feysal's post stupid for a terrible reason. It's defending MoI.

@Zdenek: for example, asking questions is not a scum tell in isolation. You repeatedly insisting that it is doesn't make it one. Doing very little apart from asking questions can be a scum tell, but that's not the case here. IMO you haven't shown scum intent in her questions. Changing reads and accepting the possibility that the player you're accusing might be town isn't a scum tell either, especially not on day 1.

I have never said that asking questions was a scum tell in islation. In fact, I've said the opposite and that it was a combination of Tammy's actions that made me think she was scum early.

The scum intent intent in directing someone's attention onto another person is clear. It creates conflict between them while staying out of it. The scum intent is asking questions about someone else's attack is that it is buddying with the person being attacked, it draws suspicion to the person making the attack and if the person is lynched and flips town, it earns the questioner credibility. The scum intent behind asking question in general is that it allows the player to appear active, while not taking stances on things.

Tammy still hasn't answered my questions and in particular the one asking her to give an example of how I've been misrepping her, which should be easy, since apparently, I've been doing it all game. Why people think she is town is beyond me.

Unvote
Vote:Foxace

[Zdenek]

Except that Feysal was never debating the makeup of the hydra.

[Zdenek]

Tammy, you still haven't said what your reads are.

Now, I also want to know how your questions helped you arrive at them.

[Zdenek]

How is Zdenek more likely to flip scum, Mastermind?

Because there are actual reasons to think Foxace is town.

Foxace is doing literally the only that could save him from a lynch at this point - voting himself and leaving it there. It's an obvious gambit because what he is doing isn't in line with his reasons for his self-vote, and the best part is that he didn't even come up with this reason.

Unvote
Vote: Foxace

No reason to be voting Norman anymore. Foxace's bizarre tunneling behavior is just ridiculously bad.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Foxace

cuz fuck it.

You are a such a bad ascum player Pine to the point it is laughable. Have fun with a noose around your head after I am lynched. Go town, yadda yadda yadda. Lets get this day on with already.

@Tammy

No, I am not thinking it would get heat off of me. Everyone can go right ahead and lynch me. It will be easier to narrow down the scum because town will have more information to go off.

And yea. I'm a noob but I hate it when people can pick up on that lol. I like to contribute.

There's nothing wrong with being a newbie. A newbie can contribute just as much as an experienced player; they may not pick up on some of the tells or know strategy as well or be able to use their role as well, but there's still a lot of contribution that can be made. Fresh perspectives are always a good thing.

But, why would you ever want someone to lynch you? If you're town, you should never

want

to be lynched. If you're town, the only person you know for sure is innocent, barring confirmation due to other things, is yourself. Asking to be lynched or just letting yourself be lynched means your team is down one member. If you're town you should be looking for the scum and fighting for them to be lynched not you.

The only time I could see wanting to be lynched being valid maybe is if you think you've become such a terrible distraction to town that to lynch you would help better catch scum. I don't know why else anyone would want to be lynched.

Thats kinda why. I dont want everyone to have myself in their heads when they are trying to deduce who scum is. I thought itd be better if I go so atleast town will have more information and people dont have to keep worrying about whether to wagon me on to the rope or not.

Thats part of what was goin on in my head.

His sob story is bullshit, fed to him by Tammy - of all the things she chooses to take a stance on it's what might have been going through Foxace's head. Bullshit. They both need to die.

[Zdenek]

Getting the feeling that Foxace-scum would have taken the opportunity to get on the Zdenek wagon or at least park his vote on one of his scumlist, especially since we've been repeatedly telling Foxace to quit with the selfvoting so he had every excuse to do so. I also don't like the fact that a bunch of people hopped on the wagon for no reason other than "we might end up with a no-lynch otherwise." Reluctant to lynch him but will still do so rather than no-lynch if we have no other choice.

No he wouldn't, all that is keeping him alive is that his vote is on himself.

@Zdenek regarding potentially scummy questions - I was one of the people Tammy questioned (I remember my name being mentioned near the start of your fight), and I didn't get the impression that her questions were leading/defending. She had me on her suspect list around that time so it's also not the case that she wasn't taking stances.

YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT TAMMY'S QUESTION AND THERE ARE NO EXAMPLES HERE, SO GO FUCK YOURSELF.

[Zdenek]

Ok.

Fox's ISO is town as crap.

Zd's is less town.
VOTE: Zdnek

Can somebody explain why his Vanilla claim popped up all of a sudden in his ISO?

At any rate it looks like I'll still be able to get in before deadline and switch if need be. If momentum comes then this is a more preferable lynch.

I claimed because there was a wagon building up quickly on me and we were close enough to the deadline that I felt I should claim.

Fixed. Thanks Tammy for pointing this out.

[Zdenek]

I'm pretty sure that the rest of my wagon is scum or people who haven't actually read the thread and don't really care who gets lynched.

[Zdenek]

Tammy, you still haven't said what your reads are.

Now, I also want to know how your questions helped you arrive at them.

Look at post 531 in which I discuss my thoughts on Greenknight and LMP, which came directly from the questions I asked. Look at my read on you, which came directly from our discussion. Look at post 697, which came directly from questions I asked - I have a fairly decent town read on Shadow1 from the responses to my questions as well. Look at post 151, which came directly from the questions I asked. I don't have a read on GNR as he never answered my question. Look at post 644 in which I give a town read on Pine.

Everything is there if you actually read. You've been hounding me for over a week now Zdenek. I've repeatedly mentioned how bad of a distraction this is, not just to me but to the entire game. I've given reads all over the place. I may not have a whole lot, but this has become such a distraction that it's hard to focus on anything. Every time I come in here and try to read the thread and contribute, there's more hounding by you repeatedly saying I'm doing something I'm not doing. I can't continue this argument anymore, please stop. Let me breathe and read the thread without your clutter so I can give reads.

So you have no scum reads from the last 1/2 of the game?

It's not my job to make the game easy for you. Under what little pressure I've managed to put on you, you've stopped scum hunting almost completely.

Jesus Christ Tammy needs to be lynched.

It was actually stupid of me to say that I would just vote where BB had it in that one post.

LOL Backtracking.

I have given reads and interacted with other people, but I'm not going to lie and say that I've given the rest of the game the focus and attention I should have if it weren't for me being caught up in a disagreement with one player.

Paving the way to take whatever stances she deems to be convenient tomorrow.

I could happily go with a zde lynch. I actually think it might be slightly better than a fox lynch. However, with the new deadline extension I can be around to switch my vote in time.unvote, vote: zde... obv, massive TV scum is obv. I think that pretty much sums up what I think of zde. Non contributor after about page 10 due to only talking about tammy.@trekker, what was the point of your last post? Scum/vig (if you are there, please be there), for the love of god shoot this guy.

What the fuck is this nonsense. WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE LIKED ME TO COMMENT ON, YOU CLOWN?

Tell me what the town motivation is to get someone to stop asking questions who is trying to generate discussion and find scum? I can't think of any.

TO GET YOU TO TAKE STANCES YOU DUMB, SCUM FUCK.

I didn't suggest that's what was going on in his mind; I didn't even take a stance on that. I told him why he shouldn't be ready to lynch himself. EXCEPT maybe in the case of a distraction that no one else could focus on. I don't even consider him a distraction and I don't know how he could consider himself a distraction.

So, are you telling me that when a player tells you they're a newbie, you don't give them advice for what are basic issues in a game...explain the mechanics of the game...or tell them why they should or shouldn't do something.

You gave him an out - an excuse for why he was playing like that. It's ridiculous considering the fact that is most other instances you just ask questions.

It's not my job to give suggestions to possible scum in the middle of the game.

[Zdenek]

@Mastin: We were only granted a 24 hour extension. As I type, we've only got 31 hours left. It's time to make a decision. As to why Zdenek, read MoI's case. I find it thoroughly convincing.

MoI's scum and his case was based on a failure to read the thread.

[Zdenek]

I'm pretty sure that the rest of my wagon is scum or people who haven't actually read the thread and don't really care who gets lynched.

Given how AFfC played out, and most day 1's in general, I'd be surprised if there were more than 2 scum on your wagon (

if you are town

). I don't see scum bussing hard day 1.

The game is multiscum, so they wouldn't have to be bussing, but the two scum I was referring to are MoI and Tammy.

[Zdenek]

Question: Why is Tammy who has repeatedly said that she doesn't like to use meta in games, so adamant about getting Feysal and Mastin to answer questions about my meta?

Answer: Because she is scum.

[Zdenek]

Vote: Tammy

Will also vote Shadoweh.

Empking looks pretty bad for his stance on CooLDog, while not caring about AVox.

The entire discussion about a possible protection should stop.

[Zdenek]

Pine's choice of MoI as an investigation choice makes no sense, so he's probably scum.

[Zdenek]

It makes no sense because MoI is regularly killed early in games, so he is a bad choice of investigation target. Also practically the only use of Pine's ability is to verify if someone is telling the truth when claiming and it's highly unlikely that MoI was going to be forced to claim anytime soon.

[Zdenek]

Tammy sits on the Zdenek wagon until it becomes the leading wagon and then switches her vote to Zar, claiming "this is a good counter-wagon". Not only is she trying to build a counter-wagon to a wagon that SHE started, but she also moves her vote to someone with zero votes and called it a "counter-wagon".

This is just another reason that Tammy is obviously scum.

[Zdenek]

It makes no sense because MoI is regularly killed early in games, so he is a bad choice of investigation target. Also practically the only use of Pine's ability is to verify if someone is telling the truth when claiming and it's highly unlikely that MoI was going to be forced to claim anytime soon.

Sorry, but this is sorta bullshit. He gets killed in many games for a reason, not because he gets killed in many games. That reason is probably because he is an obv townie in every single one of them.

First of all, I disagree with you about why MoI gets killed off.
Secondly, nothing that you said contradicts MoI being a bad choice of person for Pine to investigate last night.
Finally, I want Pine to respond to this without people feeding him answers.

[Zdenek]

Unvote
Vote: Pine

[Zdenek]

LOL at pine-scum trying to write my vote off as OMGUS.

It's cute, but he's scum.

[Zdenek]

I investigated him because if he came back non-Lawful, it would 100% confirm him as non-threat to my side.

The scum factions both get NK's so I have a hard time swallowing this as a reason to not use your ability to check claims.

Saying I'm scum because he disagrees with my investigation choice is not a valid offense...

It totally is. Here's Pine:

Oh it seems Ihave fallen under suspicion. I claim a mediocre power role.
I will use my power in a stupid way (to find allies and disinterest third parties, which I think is BS, but whatever), and on top of that claim that I was role blocked while investigating the dead guy, who if I had been thinking about things at all was likely to have been dead today anyway.

Scummy claim to avoid dealing with a lynch followed up with an easily faked result on someone you shouldn't have bothered investigating.

Greenknight: You don't investigate your chief suspects. That's just bad Cop work.

You're not a cop. You don't to hide behind that excuse.

Interesting note: Chaotic Good Townies have no reason to care about me at this point. I've claimed Bard, I can't possibly be an issue for CG Town. CE just shouldn't give a fuck about me, they know I'm not one of them and neither am I one of their targets.

Therefore, both CoolDog and Zdenek are both Lawful. One or both probably LE scum.

Tell me why in God's name you can't be LE?

Eh, I don't think Pine's the play for now. He could have just said he got a result on MoI...I don't think Pine-scum would have gone to such lengths to make up a fake RB claim, only to say that he investigated the dead guy and catch heat for that.

After AFFC, I disagree, and think that he would go to those lengths.

[Zdenek]

MoS also should take Pine's meta into consideration when evaluating his claim - particularly his play in AFFC.

Zdenek slipped in his first quote of 1413. Town has no idea about the NK patterns. I'm guessing here about the alternating NKs - note Zdenek's certainty of both teams getting kills each night. Boom, headshot

Good to see that you can't read.

You two pretty much spent the whole time fighting over each other's playstyle. That's not particularly hard to fake.

I don't think that I was arguing over her playstyle, but whatever.

[Zdenek]

@Zdenek: I can't read? I notice you don't actually refute the point, you simply say "NOPE, LOL". Care to show me where I'm wrong? And remember - you're limited to Town's uninformed perspective.

First of all, please direct me to where I said that they get to kill each night.

Secondly, I actually do think that they both get to kill each night and something got in the way of one of the kills or that both kills targeted MoI.

Thirdly, Pine is scum grasping at straws so let's lynch him.

[Zdenek]

I'll also back an AV lynch.

[Zdenek]

ALSO MINA HAS TOLD ME SHE FEELS CONFIDENT OF SHADOWEH'S ALIGNMENT

I REPEAT SHE FEELS

CONFIDENT

NOT THAT SHE IS SHADOWEH'S ALT

NOT THAT

And that alignment would be?

[Zdenek]

Can't find it? Like I said, it's after the first quote of 1413.

The scum factions both get NK's so I have a hard time swallowing this as a reason to not use your ability to check claims.

That is a hard core scumslip right there. Town DID NOT KNOW that both scumteams got kills every night. Hell, I was assuming they didn't, as that's pretty unbalanced. But hey, this is an experimental setup, so I'll forgive the mod that mistake, even though it's probably going to result in a scum win.

a. Where did I say every night?
b. I am actually assuming that they do get a kill each night, so this is BS on every level.

[Zdenek]

He can then use his ability to investigate people who don't claim to be lawful so that he can find out if they lied and then lynch them.

EXCEPT THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE DIDN'T DO.

[Zdenek]

Also, I think CooLDoG fails to see the value in forcing all the scum to claim their alignment correctly.

Are you reading?

Pine has said that he is not going to investigate people to determine if they are telling the truth when they claim.

[Zdenek]

I investigated him because if he came back non-Lawful, it would 100% confirm him as non-threat to my side.

I intend to continue investigating with this in mind. My investigations cannot detect scum, but they can detect who isn't a threat to me. Chaotic ethical alignments, regardless of moral alignment, are not a threat to me and my Town.

I chose MoI because whatever dicks of yours he'd sucked, I was having a hard time getting a firm read on him. He always looks obvTown, even when he's scum. If I got a Chaotic alignment out of him, then I'd know he was either an ally or a disinterested third party to me.

[Zdenek]

Yes, and? I don't see how this stops Pine from screwing over the Lawful mafia.

Please tell me what is going through your mind and how it would be refllected in Pine's play because I have no idea what you are trying to get at.

Preview edit:

Vote: MoS

[Zdenek]

The vast majority of people, scum included, are going to be telling the truth about their ethical (Law vs Chaos) alignment. They have little reason to lie about it, and the risk of being caught in said lie makes it just plain not worth it. What you're arguing for me to do here is waste my entire power, for the rest of the game, confirming that people are telling the truth when they have no incentive to lie. That's ridiculous.

I don't believe that you are this stupid.

Nice retaliatory OMGUS vote, by the way. Very pro-Town. [/sarcasm]

It's not an OMGUS vote. MoS spent most of day one doing nothing. Today he posted his theory, which is wrong, but also worthless without flips. So that is garbage content. Now he's going on about saying how you could be using your role, but because of your actions, what he is saying is clearly not how you are using your role and now he's refusing to explain himself. I could understand him not wanting explain himself, but he previously showed that he's either not paying attention or is blatantly lying.

[Zdenek]

Therefore, both CoolDog and Zdenek are both Lawful. One or both probably LE scum.

Lying is still way too risky for scum, so they won't bother. I wouldn't.

Cognitive dissonance from Pine. He either should think that I am Chaotic and that I was telling the truth or that I am lawful and lying.

Empking is strongly playing to his Town meta. He's just someone you have to get used to.

So how does this differ from his scum play?

[Zdenek]

PE: What cognitive dissonance? If you were Chaotic, you wouldn't care either way if I were CG or CE. Ergo, Lawful. So you're either Lawful Evil and view me as CG Town and a threat, or you're LG and see me as CE and scum. You're really reaching now.

I'll say it again. I don't believe that Pine is this dumb.

[Zdenek]

Point out the cognitive dissonance between thinking you're both probably Lawful and thinking that you might or might not be scum.

That's not what I said.

The cognitive dissonance is between you thinking that I am lawful and thinking that scum wouldn't risk lying about alignment.

[Zdenek]

Point out the cognitive dissonance between thinking you're both probably Lawful and thinking that you might or might not be scum.

That's not what I said.

The cognitive dissonance is between you thinking that I am lawful and thinking that scum wouldn't risk lying about alignment.

What the fuck? Those aren't even related, much less opposed or dissonant

Of course they are fucking related.

When you want to accuse me of being scum, you suggest that I lied about my alignment to back up your case, and when you want to justify your shitty plan for how you are going to use your role, you suggest that scum wouldn't lie about their alignment.

[Zdenek]

That's not cognitive dissonance. Just because Pine's role is a reason for scum not to lie about their alignment doesn't mean that they will all tell the truth. You're casting absolutes where there aren't any, Zdenek. That's

really

reaching.

I have no idea what you are going on about.

Pine says that he thinks I am Lawful when it suits him.
He says that scum wouldn't lie about their alignments when it suits him.
I have claimed CG.
So it's cognitive dissonance.

What the fuck, Zdenek? I never said you lied about your alignment. You haven't even claimed it

\

Yes I have.

I'm a CG commoner.

What the fuck, Zdenek? I never said you lied about your alignment. You haven't even claimed it

Also this apparently LoL

Read the thread or replace out.

[Zdenek]

What the fuck, Zdenek? I never said you lied about your alignment. You haven't even claimed it

He claimed CG commoner a couple days before deadline.

Oh. So he did. Okay, I was assuming he wasn't a complete moron. I was basing my assertion of Lawful alignment entirely on his aggressiveness towards me. To a Chaotic alignment, I'm simply not a threat, Good or Evil.

I'd say it was interesting that Zdenek was fanatically hunting someone whose life or death is (individually) irrelevant to his wincon, but

he's got a serious case of confirmation bias going on over there.

Tell me about it.

Tammy, be smart. Pine is trying to earn your sympathy by saying something that you'l be able to relate to.

[Zdenek]

What the fuck, Zdenek? I never said you lied about your alignment. You haven't even claimed it

He claimed CG commoner a couple days before deadline.

Oh. So he did. Okay, I was assuming he wasn't a complete moron. I was basing my assertion of Lawful alignment entirely on his aggressiveness towards me. To a Chaotic alignment, I'm simply not a threat, Good or Evil.

I'd say it was interesting that Zdenek was fanatically hunting someone whose life or death is (individually) irrelevant to his wincon, but he's got a serious case of confirmation bias going on over there.

Since I think you are lying about your alignment and are lawful evil, your death is directly relevant to my wincon.

[Zdenek]

What makes you think he lied about his alignment?

So that they aren't instantly lynched if the other town-scum pair leave the game first.

[Zdenek]

Really? Why the fuck would I lie about my ethical alignment, when I know for a fact that ethic-confirming roles exist? It's a completely unnecessary risk. Occam's Razor demands that if I be scum, I would be CE.

I think the best evidence yet (and that's saying a lot) against Zdenek is the specificity of his accusations.

What is this garbage?

I think you are lying about your role, so I don't actually think that you know about the existence of ethic-confirming roles, and that you are lying because that is probably the correct scum play.

[Zdenek]

Pine you still need to say how Empkng's play in this game differs from his play in his scum games.

[Zdenek]

What makes you think he lied about his alignment?

So that they aren't instantly lynched if the other town-scum pair leave the game first.

That was not the question. Enough with the irrelevant conclusions, answer the actual question.

I think that Pine is scum, so I think he lied about his alignment because that I what scum would do.
It's in no way an irrelevant conclusion.

[Zdenek]

So, what you're saying is that you concluded Pine is scum and then justified that conclusion by saying he lied about his alignment. You have no actual reason for thinking he lied about his alignment except for your

assumption

that he is scum and the fact that he claimed CG.

I bet it doesn't hurt your confirmation bias that the scum group you need to hunt is LE, either.

No, that is not what I am saying. I am not arguing that he is scum because he lied about his alignment. I think that he is scum for other reasons and as a consequence of that I think that he lied about his alignment.

[Zdenek]

I passed out and had this weird dream where I replaced in as a hydra with Faraday and OH SHI-

Not sure if scum covering past idiot's blatant mislynching tactics or town figuring out common sense. Faraday is impossible to see as anything but town, apparently. At least he told me his secret scumtells when we modded Fantasy Camp together.

I just realized that Pine working the way he says he does makes him as much of a threat to the Chaotic mafia as the Lawful one. Checking up, the last mention Zdenek made of Pine was:

I'm mean, I'm town, Pine's town, there's scum on the wagon, but that's FoxAce, so who cares.

And his opinion of MoI:

Pine was somewhat scummy for sucking up to MoI, and then apparently being unavailable to post. He got several people to mention they they felt he was scummy, but not a lot of votes. He noticed this and claimed Chaotic-Lawful cop. I would not support a Pine lynch today.

I've also think that MoI is scum. Roughly, the reasons are that his attacks on me are either based on him not reading the thread or him willfully misrepresenting my posts. He has created a ridiculously high standard for what he will accept as a scum-tell, but thinks that attacking Tammy is scummy because to him she is obviously town, and his reasons for thinking that Tammy is town are not nearly strong enough for that sort of stance to make any sense, MoI's attacks on me are not the only ones that have been born out of a misrepresentation, see for instance his first vote on Briz since the game restarted.

MoS is also very likely scum because he is content to snipe from the sidelines.

I think that the three of them

- MoI
- Tammy
- MoS

make for a very likely scum team. I believe that MoI, being aware of his reputation for bussing has decided to instead defend his scum-buddy Tammy in this game. Tammy has stated in the thread that she thinks that sniping from the side-lines is scummy, but she fails to ever take a strong stance on MoS. Finally MoS jumped to MoI's defense when Feysal presented his case on MoI. There are a few other notable interactions between them: Tammy fence-sitting on MoI in 455, and MoI telling MoS to stop trying to bait suspicion,

@Mastin: We were only granted a 24 hour extension. As I type, we've only got 31 hours left. It's time to make a decision. As to why Zdenek, read MoI's case. I find it thoroughly convincing.

MoI's scum and his case was based on a failure to read the thread.

His stance on MoI as an investigation target being wrong makes no sense. He himself thought MoI was scummy going into the nightphase. He also thought Pine was town. It doesn't make sense to me for a townie to forget that they thought someone was scummy, and not understand why someone else would find them scummy enough to investigate. The change would make sense from someone making up his feelings as he's going along and sensing a weakness in the 'fake cop'.

I'll also point out that if Pine were fakeclaiming scum that was going to claim roleblocked he could have chosen

anyone

to lie about, there are a mass of scummy people to be suspicious of. Definitely someone more palpable then MoI.

The entire dialogue is off to me. I also see that Zdenek has already dropped his Pine vote but is more then happy to keep pushing him as a viable target in case enough minnows eat paint chips and want to go for it. If you really thought he was lying you wouldn't be afraid to lynch him as scum.

##Unvote
##Vote: Zdenek

Yes, I thought Pine was probably town yesterday, but that was because of his claim. then his idiotic choice of person to investigate and the fact the fact that he said that he was going to continue to use that strategy to choose his night targets changed that, and since then my read on him has only gotten worse.

My stance on MoI being a bad investigation choice makes complete sense. Pine can only detect if people Are chaotic or lawful, so from a finding scum perspective, he can only check if people are lying about their claims (which is something that scum have a good reason to do). MoI hadn't claimed and was in little danger of being forced to.

I think lynching either Pine or MoS would be great, but I only have one vote so I can't vote both of them at once.

[Zdenek]

Interesting note: Chaotic Good Townies have no reason to care about me at this point. I've claimed Bard, I can't possibly be an issue for CG Town.

Faulty logic, as you might be LE scum.

Therefore, both CoolDog and Zdenek are both Lawful. One or both probably LE scum.

Oh? Then why didn't you investigate Zdenek to prove he is lying about being chaotic?

@GK: I didn't join the conversation because I was simply busy at the time. The reason I didn't pop out with my result right away was because I wanted to check and find out if I was blocked or not.

@CoolDog: Then you suck at being a Cop. The examples of people investigating their top suspects, getting an innocent, and just assuming Godfather are endless. Meanwhile, the people they have no information on continue to have no information. The best move is to investigate unknown entities, period.

I won't be continuing this discussion about the validity of my choice. It's wasting time, you're not going to change my mind, and is better reserved for MD. Hint, I won't engage you on it there either. Go read Mastin's article, he's very thorough.

What the fuck, Zdenek? I never said you lied about your alignment. You haven't even claimed it

Really? Why the fuck would I lie about my ethical alignment, when I know for a fact that ethic-confirming roles exist? It's a completely unnecessary risk.

Because if you're LE and claimed to be a LG PR you'd be an obvious target for CE scum to kill... And you own the L/C detecting role anyway making it unlikely that someone else has one.

Also how you can be unaware of Zdenek's CG claim when I brought it up before asking you why you didn't investigate Zdenek boggles me.

Beautiful.

Unvote
Vote:Pine

[Zdenek]

Zdenek's read agree muchly with my own, he is town.

So what are your reads?

if i told you all that I thought Green knight and Pine were scum of opposite alignments what would you say?

Maybe, but can we lynch Pine first.

I actually think we should lynch AV and force Pine to investigate Zdenek.

What? You see that Pine is lying about what he knows and you don't want to lynch him?

If pine investigates zdenek and comes back with a lawful result, then we know 100% that at least one of them is scum and can decide tomorrow.

Since that's not going to happen, we'd really just be wasting time.

Mhork could be scum to, but that is mostly because the tone of his posts seems off.

[Zdenek]

And how do you distinguish it from his scum meta?

[Zdenek]

Still in catch up hell, though making some progress here. Unfortunately, it will take me at least until Sunday to finish, since I will simply not be here at all tomorrow. The main concert of my orchestra is taking place, and together with the rehearsals and party afterward it will take all day and possibly much of the night.

Looking at the wagons right now, I'm of course pleased with the one on AurorusVox, and with the one on CooLDoG losing steam. I'm more surprised by the one on Pine. I tried to dig up what the reasons for it were, and I don't find myself agreeing much with them. Yes, it has been established that he claimed with little actual provocation, though he may have believed there was more support for his lynch. I'm not sold on that making him scummy. As for the reason Zdenek gave, that being his investigation of MoI, I don't agree on that being a bad choice at all. I've seen MoI survive to win as scum, and to prevent that, I would welcome any hard information to expose the shameless lies he is notorious for. In short, I think it was perfectly reasonable of Pine to investigate MoI.

Say whatever you like about Pine's choice to investigate MoI, since coming under pressure he has blatantly lied about he knows.

[Zdenek]

Tammy, for the purposes of scum hunting Pine's ability has one use - to determine if someone is lying about their alignment. Last night, he didn't do that when he had the chance to. His defense for his actions earlier today was tailored towards justifying why he didn't pick me: he voted me, he argued that it is bad cop play to check one's chief suspects (hiding behind Mastin's article, which probably doesn't even apply in this case, since Pine's not an alignment cop) , and when GK asked him why he didn't investigate me after I'd claimed, he said that he would no longer discuss his choice. The refusal to respond to that question shows that he didn't have an answer to it and the time for him to say that he didn't know that I claimed was then.

IIT we learn that Haze and CooLDoG are idiots and Tammy is becoming less likely scum every day.

This Pine wagon is fucking retarded and you should all be ashamed of yourselves.

All I see in the post of Tammy's that you are referring to is a defense of Pine, which is not a good reason to think that she is town.

Pine claimed yesterday to get the pressure off of himself. He wasn't lynched in part because of the chance to evaluate him based on his claim. It turns out that he's scum.

Mod: when one side leaves the game, what information about them will be revealed? Do the scum teams know what information about themselves or the other scum team will be revealed?

[Zdenek]

however if zdenek flips scum you are both reasonably clear in my eyes, at least temporarily.

Are you still forgetting that there are two scum teams or are you just on one of them?

[Zdenek]

@AV: No, I wasn't part of the pre-crash discussion

\
So why didn't you go back to read it?

[Zdenek]

Niether of the above, However I have currently called six scum, until I am wrong, or something else convinces me, I see no need to go after Pine/MOS scumteam.

Then how would my scum flip clear them?

[Zdenek]

it would clear them tremporarily as I need not worry about them till I am mistaken, I believe I just said that.

That makes no sense.

[Zdenek]

Yes. It does..

Fucking explain how in a multiscum game, if I were to flip scum, it would clear, temporarily or otherwise, Pine and MoS.

[Zdenek]

I'll look into this Shadoweh/Mhork business later.

Tammy's still not scum hunting. She defends MoS, BBMolla (using meta which is laughable, considering her stated opinions on meta), and Pine.

This. Pine still reads obvtown, this wagon on him is getting more and more massively idiotic by the minute.

Why?

Here is why Pine is obviously scum:

Interesting note: Chaotic Good Townies have no reason to care about me at this point. I've claimed Bard, I can't possibly be an issue for CG Town.

Faulty logic, as you might be LE scum.

Therefore, both CoolDog and Zdenek are both Lawful. One or both probably LE scum.

Oh? Then why didn't you investigate Zdenek to prove he is lying about being chaotic?

@GK: I didn't join the conversation because I was simply busy at the time. The reason I didn't pop out with my result right away was because I wanted to check and find out if I was blocked or not.

@CoolDog: Then you suck at being a Cop. The examples of people investigating their top suspects, getting an innocent, and just assuming Godfather are endless. Meanwhile, the people they have no information on continue to have no information. The best move is to investigate unknown entities, period.

I won't be continuing this discussion about the validity of my choice. It's wasting time, you're not going to change my mind, and is better reserved for MD. Hint, I won't engage you on it there either. Go read Mastin's article, he's very thorough.

What the fuck, Zdenek? I never said you lied about your alignment. You haven't even claimed it

Really? Why the fuck would I lie about my ethical alignment, when I know for a fact that ethic-confirming roles exist? It's a completely unnecessary risk.

Because if you're LE and claimed to be a LG PR you'd be an obvious target for CE scum to kill... And you own the L/C detecting role anyway making it unlikely that someone else has one.

Also how you can be unaware of Zdenek's CG claim when I brought it up before asking you why you didn't investigate Zdenek boggles me.

Beautiful.

Tammy, for the purposes of scum hunting Pine's ability has one use - to determine if someone is lying about their alignment. Last night, he didn't do that when he had the chance to. His defense for his actions earlier today was tailored towards justifying why he didn't pick me: he voted me, he argued that it is bad cop play to check one's chief suspects (hiding behind Mastin's article, which probably doesn't even apply in this case, since Pine's not an alignment cop) , and when GK asked him why he didn't investigate me after I'd claimed, he said that he would no longer discuss his choice. The refusal to respond to that question shows that he didn't have an answer to it and the time for him to say that he didn't know that I claimed was then.

[Zdenek]

If we massclaimed ethical alignment, scum HAD to lie.

Skimmed some of the thread, don't understand this at all.
I'm guessing there are 13 lawfuls, 13 chaotics.
If scum lie, then it is apparent. If they don't, they're just in a group of 10 others.

All your questions are answered in the cached pages linked in post 3.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek, you can quote yourself all you want. That's not going to make Pine any less obvtown.

And you can tell me that he's obv town all you like, it's not going to make him any less obvscum.

[Zdenek]

No new arguments have been brought against Pine for me to debunk. You all just keep filling the thread with the same trash that I've already showed to be baseless accusations that don't take into account proper behavioral analysis. I'm not going to flood the game by just rephrasing the exact same arguments.

You've never addressed the points that I raised in my two post that I've recently quoted, at least looking over your ISO, I couldn't find where you did.

[Zdenek]

Briz - explain your probtown list.

[Zdenek]

Vote Nachomamma

Briz's reasons for thinking people are town make me sad.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek do you disagree with the list? I'm aware of your argument with Tammy, even accounting for multi scum I don't find her likely to be scum based on meta. Both heads of the hydra have played with her before and I've only seen one thing that gives me pause about her, which is pretty little in the grand scheme of things. I.e. who non tammy don't you like?

It's not so much that I don't like most of the people on the list it's that I have a hard time seeing how someone could have reasonable town reads on some of the slots - especially yours and empking's, and after this long period of inactivity Feysal is hard to get a read on too, especially with the deadline approaching. Shadoweh is another story because I actually think that she could be scum considering her stance on the wagons at the end of day one - that they were on town, but that she didn't see fit to do anything about it.

You've played with Tammy before? Could you say what it is about her that makes you think that she's town? Frankly, knowing that she's played with you before makes me even more certain that she is scum because of her drastic change in demeanor since you've replaced in. She was aggressively attacking your slot when Zar was in it, but since he replaced out, she's massively backed off.

@zde, more elaborate reasons for Nach? or did I just miss something

I'm trying to lynch the trekker slot and this is what you reward me with.

Just looking at Nachomamma's posts, this is what we've got:

He asks about the business of mass-claiming. I tell him that the answers are in the cached pages, he doesn't read them. So he knows that they contain information, but he chooses to ignore them, despite that and the fact that he was confused about something.

He says Lemon is town because of Fox interactions. Go read Lemon's ISO and tell me if you can see how that is justified because I can't.

He attacks my AVox vote, which he is in no position to judge because he didn't read the first five pages and he doesn't seem to have a problem with GK's AVox vote, which was for essentially the same reasons.

Pine passed a rather simple test when I didn't really feel like voting him anyway, Now I am going back to my original vote. I am still happy to lynch MOS today, but zdenek is better.

Sweet Christ. You of all people should not be trying to get reads on people with tests.

[Zdenek]

I'd probably have town read on Faraday (I don't think Mina's been on the line yet) if it weren't for Zar.

What makes Faraday town to you? You've with him before right?

zdenek: what do you think of shadoweh backing off the read on zar?

I don't like it either.

For the record, that'd make scumteams consisting of MoS, Pine, Cooldog, Butterfly, Jackal, and Tammy. But I did have a scumread on LMP as well. I need to think things through, and also do the team divisions.

This list is very "path of least resistance". With the exception of Lost Butterfaraday, nothing in there is insightful or unpopular. This is not the Mastin I'm accustomed to. Deserves additional scrutiny when he's posting more, but we don't have time today.

Bullshit. Trying to get you or Tammy lynched has been a nightmare.

Also Shadoweh is probably scum.

Anyone want to flash wagon her to make her come out of the woodwork?

But Nachomamma . . .

[Zdenek]

I'd probably have town read on Faraday (I don't think Mina's been on the line yet) if it weren't for Zar.

What makes Faraday town to you? You've with him before right?

It's a probably. If I wasn't already weary of the slot, I would probably have a basic town read on him. Yes, we've played together a few times. I've only ever seen him as town, and he's acting the same as I've always seen him act. Yes, that's meta, it's a playstyle meta that I think is fine to use to get a basic read to have something to work with. I know that he's tricky to catch as scum, so I'd have to keep watch for it, and a couple times when he was town I thought he was scum, so um yeah. Multiscum makes it even trickier.

For the record, that'd make scumteams consisting of MoS, Pine, Cooldog, Butterfly, Jackal, and Tammy. But I did have a scumread on LMP as well. I need to think things through, and also do the team divisions.

This list is very "path of least resistance". With the exception of Lost Butterfaraday, nothing in there is insightful or unpopular. This is not the Mastin I'm accustomed to. Deserves additional scrutiny when he's posting more, but we don't have time today.

Bullshit. Trying to get you or Tammy lynched has been a nightmare.

Did it ever cross your mind that maybe we're innocent?[/quote]

1. It's not just meta; it's a terrible argument. Seriously. You usually read him as town and a couple of times when you thought he was scum, he was town. Are you correcting for that, have you adjusted your way of reading him him or are saying that you have a town read on him for essentially no reason at all?

2. Are you trying to argue that Mastin is on fact taking the easy road or are you just reacting to my comment?

Let's try this.

Unvote
Vote Shadoweh

[Zdenek]

I don't understand why Lost Butterfly would tell me about Tammy never reading Faraday correctly when they've never played together when Faraday's been scum.

I don't understand how this Pine wagon got dropped. Also don't understand how the person who started this wagon got convinced otherwise. But I can also see that it's going nowhere.

I don't know if this is directed at me, but I am far from convinced that Pine is not scum, but I also wanted to do something.

Peregrine is probably scum. He's been posting a fair amount in other games but not here. He did the same as scum in Dram's bastard and we lynched him for it.

I agree with the Peregrine as scum meta read - lurks as scum, posts as town.

Oh, I didn't read that.. interesting. Well in that case Pines' claim seems difficult to come from scum just based on the technicality of the role he's claiming. He's not my play for today, I'm glad the wagon fell apart.

It could easily come from scum - he literally could be a scum lawful-chaotic cop.
Also he's claiming to be role-blocked, so he doesn't have to fake results.

What were you thinking?

[Zdenek]

I'm with GK on this. No doc claims their protection target that obviously after one kill occurred when two were expected. I'm not moving my vote.

[Zdenek]

I can go along with this

Vote Mastin

I'd also be happy lynching Nachomamma.

[Zdenek]

I would still back a Pine lynch.

I don't understand the scum reads on CooLDog at all.

BBmolla's roleblocking discussion is useless drivel.

Mastin's explanation for his change of read on BBMolla, is partly reasonable, and partly the sort of thing that I would expect from Mastin.

AVox's refusal to cooperate with BB reads as slightly townie. I sitll have issues with him from early in the game, but I'm not as concerned about that at the moment.

[Zdenek]

Compare:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3937720
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p3964313
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p3966003
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p3967119
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3967240
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p3967534
with
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p3998836
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p4001692

He forgot that he was suspicious of Pine.

Unvote
Vote Shadow1psc

[Zdenek]

I did not forget, I rethought out the circumstances, and the people around it.

You go from being suspicious of Pine to saying that he's obviously town without any explanation of your thought process. I think you're scum who fucked up trying to push a wagon too hard.

[Zdenek]

Pine, I accept the fact that you are bad at this game. Zdenek is actively rolefishing, so everyone else take note.

Let's see. If I'm a power role, and I've been suspicious of someone all game, and then investigate them and discover that I am wrong, I wouidn't call that person suddenly obv. town.

Shadow's soft-claim is bullshit. Let's lynch him.

[Zdenek]

Pine, I accept the fact that you are bad at this game. Zdenek is actively rolefishing, so everyone else take note.

Let's see. If I'm a power role, and I've been suspicious of someone all game, and then investigate them and discover that I am wrong, I wouidn't call that person suddenly obv. town.

Shadow's soft-claim is bullshit. Let's lynch him.

So, your argument is that as scum, I would be stupid enough to forget that I had been calling someone scum all game, and that that wasn't the soft claim?

1. Yes.
2. I don't think that you as town would use the discovery of Pine being town to push the wagon on CooLDoG because if it was the case that you'd suspected Pine all game, and then discovered he was town, you'd be sympathetic towards CD's scum read on Pine.

[Zdenek]

Shadow1psc, scum often claim power roles, so it's reasonable to be suspicious of them, and so far none of them has done anything to lend credibility to their claim. Consequently, I'm not bothered by CoolDog's suspects.

Tammy, why are you defending Shadow for possibly being erratic when he has soft claim that he is not being erratic? Shadow has been going on and on about finding Pone scummy, then suddenly he changes his read, and starts using the fact that CoolDog's suspicious of Pine as reason why CooLDog is scum. If he legitimately found Pine scummy (i.e. was town) he would understand why CooLDoG found Pine scummy, and would not use that as a further reason to push the CoolDog wagon.

[Zdenek]

No, I was saying that Shadow hasn't demonstrated an erratic playstyle so I can't imagine him just forgetting a scum read that he had a couple days after pushing it. Because I haven't seen erratic tendencies in his playstyle, I would imagine that he would have a reason for changing his mind. As far as his CooLDog suspicions, he's had those all game and they've been independent of his suspicions on Pine. He might be adding that to his suspicions now, I guess, but they don't form the basis of those suspicions.

So why shouldn't he be sympathetic towards CoolDog's apparent failure to read Pine correctly?

[Zdenek]

And now that I've read your post correctly, why does the fact that Shadow hasn't been erratic until now make it less likely that his change in read on Pine is coming from scum?

[Zdenek]

Oh hey

vote Mastin

feel like giving a reason you're voting a previous strong town read? I'm pretty sure I remember you getting all huffy that we were going to lynch Shadoweh, who you were 94% was town and was a scum driven wagon, which you were going to go after today. You said that you were even more sure that BB was town.

And now that I've read your post correctly, why does the fact that Shadow hasn't been erratic until now make it less likely that his change in read on Pine is coming from scum?

Because scum tend to be a bit more deliberate. They don't forget that they have a scum read on someone and don't tend to just change erratically from one day to the next. Because he hasn't shown any erratic tendencies in his play, I would imagine as scum he would be even more deliberate; therefore, he'd be a bit more careful about the way he went about changing his stances. The way he did it was almost careless, in my interpretation of the sequence of posts you posted. It's not what I would expect from scum.

Now can we lynch Tammy?

[Zdenek]

*snooze fest*

Not the same thing Zdenek. I mean I suppose it has similar qualities but is hardly the same thing. But, I mean sure, go ahead and find things to fit with your confirmation bias. Won't ever make me scum.

So what's the difference then?

[Zdenek]

*snooze fest*

Not the same thing Zdenek. I mean I suppose it has similar qualities but is hardly the same thing. But, I mean sure, go ahead and find things to fit with your confirmation bias. Won't ever make me scum.

So what's the difference then?

In particular why is a seemingly unjustified change of reads a scum-tell for Mastin, but a town-tell for Shadow?

[Zdenek]

1. is irrelevant.
2. is just you explaining why Mastin was being erratic.
3. You don't need to convince me that it's scummy. That's not my problem here.
4. I disagree that town reads van't change over night. I think that flips can make a difference. Also, you're not just giving Shadow leeway, you're saying that his erratic behavior is a town-tell.

Unvote
Vote: Tammy

[Zdenek]

You know Zdenek I think if you would take all this time and energy you have devoted to trying to prove why town is scum and divert it to finding actual scum, we might have a chance here. It's just a pity you've taken to settling into some stupid confirmation bias and believing that town is scum.

Why should I think you are town?

[Zdenek]

Tammy drives me crazy. I find her play to be incredibly scummy. The fact that aside from Mastin, I have no idea who she finds scummy at the moment is bad. She seems like a competent enough player that she should have more scum reads at this point. The fact that she thinks that Shadow is town because he made a seemingly careless change of reads, but doesn't feel the same way about Mastin doing the same thing rings alarm bells. I'd like to add that her defense of Shadow for this is totally out of line, since Shadow has claimed that it was not a careless change of reads. On the other hand going purely by gut I can at least understand why some people think she is town because of some of her reactions to my attacks, but I'm having a hard time going with gut as time goes on.

I do not buy Shadow's soft-claim at all. I do not think his decision to soft-claim was town motivated at all. I think lynching him would be fantastic.

AVox's failure to pick up on what Tammy actually meant by "snooze-fest" indicates that he's not really reading the thread with the intent to understand what's going on.

Tammy, I answer some of your questions later.

[Zdenek]

Unvote
Vote: Nachomamma

[Zdenek]

@zde, more elaborate reasons for Nach? or did I just miss something

I'm trying to lynch the trekker slot and this is what you reward me with.

Just looking at Nachomamma's posts, this is what we've got:

He asks about the business of mass-claiming. I tell him that the answers are in the cached pages, he doesn't read them. So he knows that they contain information, but he chooses to ignore them, despite that and the fact that he was confused about something.

He says Lemon is town because of Fox interactions. Go read Lemon's ISO and tell me if you can see how that is justified because I can't.

He attacks my AVox vote, which he is in no position to judge because he didn't read the first five pages and he doesn't seem to have a problem with GK's AVox vote, which was for essentially the same reasons.

Add to that the facts that he defended Shadoweh and that he has done nothing today.

[Zdenek]

But why did you vote him specifically in 2617?

Because I don't like having my vote in a useless place.

[Zdenek]

Also, I really dislike that BBMolla is posting elsewhere, but not here.

[Zdenek]

But why did you vote him specifically in 2617?

Because I don't like having my vote in a useless place.

A 2 man wagon is much more useful than a 1 man wagon?

There was more support for a Nacho lynch than just the people who had voted him at that time, and there are people actively defending Tammy.

[Zdenek]

The main thing that I see with Briz that I don't like, is that he went from voting MoS, to voting BBMolla (who MoS was pushing hard), while there was still quite a lot of time left in day two. It seems like he was too willing to settle for a compromise lynch too early and with the wrong person. Then today, he hasn't revisited his suspicion of MoS at all, I think.

I've seen Peregrine as town and played with him as scum. I think his play in this game more closely resembles his scum play, mainly because of the lurking. His votes have tended to be in fairly easy places, especially on Jackal. Also, he hasn't tried to push Regfan at all, despite the fact that Regfan replaced Jackal.

Haze looks bad because of how he has backed off of AVox today after pushing for his lynch. Yesterday it was anyone but BBMolla, but today he seems to be satisfied with his lynch. Plus, if he hasn't seen the case on Nacho, it means that he's not reading the thread. Also,

I hope I'm not being replaced.

Just throwing this post there.

NOt sure what to think of Pine atm. Will read AV properly. I'm glad he's picked up the role of obvtown and is poking the lurkers like me.

Please explain this post carefully.

Mastin is being useless, which is surprising, and I could put my vote back there.

[Zdenek]

Shadow, I don't understand.

Also, Nacho has no scum reads.

I'd probably vote BBMolla before I voted Briz, but I'd till like Nacho dead.

[Zdenek]

Faraday, how does Seacore feel about investigation immune Godfathers?

[Zdenek]

^This has got to be one of the scummiest posts all game. Completely erases all of the "ehhh, he's probably just being a derp" credit he's accrued.

Why?

2) Debatably. This question is not relevant to Pine's alignment, however. If he was scum he'd just lie about his targets and make it *seem* like he was doing the best he could to help the town.

I actually would expect this sort of behavior from Pine. He's not the sort of scum to appease town and he's bold enough to do it.

[Zdenek]

Would you say he's the sort of town to sheep whatever other people tell him to do?

Nope, but I am sure that Pine's stubbornness is not a town tell for him.

I think that the fact that he's chosen to use his role in this way (essentially choosing randomly between players he's null on) is actually scummy, since he could choose to do something better, and isn't. It makes me think that he is being intentionally difficult, precisely so that people will make the argument that you are.

[Zdenek]

V/LA until May 15

I should still be around, but I won't be able to be too active.

[Zdenek]

So apparently, I'm getting a reputation for posting 'til I get suspicion on me, then lurking 'til it goes away.

I'd rather not have that kinda reputation, so I'm going to TRY and post more often. Short on time at the moment, though.


AV, Pine will not be lynched today. Nor tomorrow. And preferably never.

When BBMolla flips Chaotic Evil roleblocker, Pine will be able to use his ability: even if he WERE scum (he's not), he couldn't realistically claim to still be roleblocked, and therefore would be forced to fake results on a person. Which would give us information.

And if he's NOT scum (he really isn't), then said information is potentially even MORE valuable, as it locks people into an alignment they may rather have left unclaimed and/or catch them in a lie.

You think BBMolla's scum as well, don't you?

Stop being an idiot and get realistic; jump back on.

Why do you think that only one of the scum teams has a role blocker?

Unfortunately I can't get to it now, but I remember looking into the case on Briz based on him changing reads irrationally and thinking that it wasn't all that good.

Anyway, I still want to lynch Nacho.

[Zdenek]

I'll be back and posting properly by Wednesday and hopefully by tomorrow. After a quick skim, I strongly back the bbmolla blocking pine plan.

[Zdenek]

I'm ready for bb to die, and will hammer if he gets to L-1 without him self-voting.

People who are probably town:

Peregrine, Oversoul, nachomamma, moneybags (because of their slot's voting habits)
Shadow1psc (could be scum tracker, but his claim plus play style make me think town)
Feysal
TD

[Zdenek]

Mastin, why are you removing Mina from your scum list? There are commoner scum, and her suspects list post was terrible.
Pine is still scum.
I agree with Mastin that Junpei is a decent bet for bbmolla's scum buddy.

Unfortunately I have too many scum reads, but I think the last two are in Mina, Junpei and Pine.

[Zdenek]

So, Pine and Mina are exaggerating my probably town list to obviously town or cleared, respectively.

Nacho is probably town because of Voting habits, go ISO him and trekker.

I didn't have a strong read on Faraday. My main problem with him is that rather than voting and pushing for Shadoweh, he talked me into voting for her first. Regfan also thought he was scum and he's dead now. Plus, there is Tammy's read on Zar, who she is apparently familiar with.

[Zdenek]

The only issue that I see that remains with the mass ethics claim is the possibility of it splitting the town, but considering how few scum are left, that's not such a big deal. At the moment scum will be forced to lie, so that they won't be outed if we correctly lynch te other scum, and this will open them up to investigation by pine, if he is telling the truth.

I've already claimed and I am chaotic.

Pine, since encryption is allowed, I think you should post all your results, encrypted, now, so that we'll be able to verify them when the claims are done.

[Zdenek]

In fact, I don't want anyone else to claim unil after pine has done this.

[Zdenek]

Pine is almost surely scum, now since there is almost no chance that CG would have two roles, his and Shadow's, that become full-cops as the game goes on. I like the idea that bbmolla blocked pine N1, since that means that Pine can be CE, which fits with CooLDog bussing him while MoS protected him.

[Zdenek]

mastin might take awhile to bother to check in, can we just kill pine?

No.
I have something to say, but I need to wait until after Mastin claims.

[Zdenek]

I'm not going to bother waiting. If Mastin comes in and claims something different than I expect, I'll rethink things, but I seriously doubt that I'll have to.

I've had to come to the conclusion that Pine is actually probably town. The symmetry of their being 3 town power roles of each alignment is compelling. There's a chance that both he an Feysal are scum, but I doubt that enough to think that Pine should not be the lynch today. It's also not all that likely that he'd have been willing to make the claim that he did that early in the game if he was lying about being chaotic. The fact that scum have strong motivation to lie, and that we have the right number in each town (assuming 13/13) is another reason to think that Pine is telling the truth.

Oversoul is also very likely to be town for essentially the same reason.

On another note, if there is another chaotic power-role I'd like you to consider claiming because then this analysis goes out the window, but we probably have caught scum.

Also, Shadoweh's claim to be lawful meant that she was absolutely not playing to survive until after the lawful town left the game. So she was playing to possibly survive a couple of days and an investigation by Pine, and to be bussed by her scum buddies for towncred. BBmolla being lynched before her would have been bad for their team.

Here are the relevant posts from after her claim:

>.< Fine.

VOTE: BBMolla

Moneybags is town.

UNVOTE:

Now what.

If BB is run up and claims PR, do we no lynch? Shit.

Haze is probably town, but it's not as clear as with Moneybags.

no

unvote

vote: Shadoweh

stay the course you fucks

what are the odds our fucking lynches are all prs

ZIPEDEE DO DA

LYNCH SHADOWEH
LYNCH PINE WITH FIRE TOMORROW.

g fucking g

Possible bussing

Unvote; Vote: Shadoweh

Hiding behind audacity doesn't work when scum would know you were doing that.

Lack of ability naming is also hinky.

Possible bussing

For the record:

Vote Count 2.15

CooLDoG (1) -

Shadow1psc

AurorusVox (1) -

BBmolla

Pine (2) -

mastin2, Lord Mhork

BBmolla (8) -

Mastermind of Sin, Empking, Pine, CooLDoG, Shadoweh, PeregrineV, Moneybags, Feysal

Mastermind of Sin (1) -

Junpei

Shadoweh (10) -

Zdenek, Lost Butterfly, brizingre1, chesskid3, greenknight, Regfan, Tammy, AurorusVox, Nachomamma8, TiphaineDeath

Not Voting (1) - Haze

(expired on 2012-04-22 00:00:00) before Night 2
With 24 alive, 13 are needed to secure a lynch.

Vote BBmolla

For now.

Junpei is town.

Unvote, Vote: Shadoweh

L-1

Possible bussing

So where are we at:

Probable Chaotic Good:

Moneybags
Junpei
Haze?
Pine
Oversoul

Cadidates for Bussing Shadow:

Chesskid
Empking
AVox

Based on the wagons the day cool dog was lynched, I am willing to remove the question mark from Haze, and say that AVox should not be the lynch.

Next day, Empking votes Chesskid, this move makes me think that Empking is town, because there is little scum motivation to do this when CK was in little danger of being lynched and BB was. Especially, when he could have kept pushing the Nacho wagon.

So CK is probably the last lawful scum.

As far as the last chaotic scum goes:

Prob not Feysal or TD.
I'm going to ignore my thoughts on Tammy, and assume that she is town based on others reads.

I don't think ML would have been bussing MoS and CD so Mastin is probably town.

Trekker spent most of his time int the game calling CoolDoG scum. Searching CD's iso for Nacho shows him calling Nacho scummy, but that we should put off his lynch for a day, while BB is lynched. Nacho is a possible buddy of MoS and CD, but it's iffy. I'd say for sure, if I didn't have my doubts about Trekker trolling CD, if they were buddies.

Whatever suspicions I have of the Mina slot, I'd be hard-pressed to lynch her before Nachomamma.

TL;DR my bets for the last scum are CK for lawful and Nacho for chaotic with the second places going to Empking and Mina respectively.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek, why'd you leave out some of the relevant votes on the Shadoweh wagon?

Why don't you tell me which ones you are talking about, and I'll tell you.

[Zdenek]

Mastin, do you think that both scum decided to claim their actual alignments?

Right now, we have the right number of each side, so the only way Junpei could be chaotic scum is if the the lawful scum also claimed lawful.

[Zdenek]

I'll hammer Natcho if he gets to L1 because he's probably scum, and that should get the lawful town out of the game. But I am chaotic, so lynching the last lawful scum would be best, so

Vote: ChessKid

[Zdenek]

As I said, if nacho get's to L-1, I'll hammer.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek, why'd you leave out some of the relevant votes on the Shadoweh wagon?

Why don't you tell me which ones you are talking about, and I'll tell you.

Don't you think it makes sense to look at every reaction to the claim?

Look, if you think I neglected to mention something, tell me what it is. I have no idea what you are going on about.

[Zdenek]

Here's the deal with Pine. He claimed bard early in the claim. This locks him into a chaotic claim. He also must have been aware that there could be a role that could detect that he's a bard. So he is very likely telling the truth about that.

If we assume that the two towns are the same size, have the same number of powor-roles and that the distribution of power-roles is the same (3 to each town and one to each scum team) Pine is town.

If Pine is scum, then, he is probably chaotic scum, in which case the chaotic scum team has a rogue (whatever that does) and detect law-cop. The law-cop for them is a pretty powerful role, it will help them find the town they need to kill off and the opposing scum team. This would imply that the lawful scum team should have something more powerful than a role-blocker. Of course this is possible. But then, we have two scum teams with two power-roles each, going against two towns that have two or three (if Feysal is town and there is another unclaimed PR out there) powerroles each.

Based on the claims so far and some pretty reasonable speculation about the setup, I think that Pine would be a bad lynch today.

[Zdenek]

I'm going to find all of the lawful claims before posting something more. All I remember is TD, Tammy, and Mina, and I don't really want to vote one of them quite yet.

Mastin and Feysal are the other two.

[Zdenek]

Mod: Prod Feysal, please.

[Zdenek]

Junpei, your read on CK, now.

[Zdenek]

Despite being Chaotic, I feel that we need to make lawful win first. Both towns winning is a much better win than one town winning.

[Zdenek]

Tell me Zdenek, do you prescribe to lynch all liars?

No, I think it depends on the lie.

[Zdenek]

First of all, yee haw, CK is scum.

We should probably lynch Nacho (or anyone lawful desires) today and have CK shoot at lawful tonight. That should get lawful out and hopefully with a town win.

This is slightly better than a 2-1 LYLO for lawful tomorrow.

[Zdenek]

Personally, I don't think there are any ethical problems with lynching from the lawful group today. The lawful side got NK'ed and helped us lynch CE before we claimed. I think that the towns are natually in it together, scum could have co-operated to have both scum teams win and frankly if the roles were reversed, I expect they would have.

On that note: Regfan suspected Mastin more than Nacho and was NK'ed.

[Zdenek]

oops.

[Zdenek]

Well, I've thought about this a lot. I think that I am obliged to play to my win-con and vote for CK3. I feel indebted to LG, but the fact is that for me to do anything else wouldn't be playing to my win-con. I also still think that Tammy is scum, so I'm not all that sure that by voting for Nacho or Mastin that it will even help LG.

Vote: CK3

[Zdenek]

chesskid was caught due to guilty and likely would have lasted longer.

From my perspective he was the only claimed chaotic left at the end who made any sense as scum, so I hope this wouldn't have been the case.

The game was a lot of fun.

I'm happy to finally have an example of scum proposing tp use an anti-town strategy at the start of the game.

[Zdenek]

Having actually seen players tactically replace out and other players threaten to do so, and get no heat for it at all. I think the Mastin hate here is a bit much.

[Zdenek]

fucking grammar.

[Zdenek]

The idea that it's alright for scum to not be aware of their buddies from the very start of the game is silly, especially because coming out of RVS can be tough on scum.