In the Court of the Gods (Game Over)

[hitogoroshi]

/confirm.

We should make a priority of trying to find out who the scum god is. I see discrete chatter with a god as being very useful (we have what amounts to two uber-neighborizers) but it's disastrous if people share information with the scum god. For now, be certain not to share anything overly important with the gods; hopefully later we can make a more informed decision and take advantage of that godpower.

[hitogoroshi]

hey also since I like most of the people here, let me take this opportunity to point surreptitiously at my signature

[hitogoroshi]

You mind bolding and coloring your text, NS?
Thanks.

Actually, this seems unnecessary. We know he's not lying about which god he is, and there's no colour/alignment link.

A good rule to institute, in my opinion, is normal colored text when speaking of issues in which you are one vote among many ("I think X looks scum,") and use colored text when speaking about godly issues ("I think I might give Y doublevoter, thoughts?").

[hitogoroshi]

You mind bolding and coloring your text, NS?
Thanks.

Immortals do not take requests from mere Priests.

Cut the BEHOLD MY AWESOME POWER routine, please. You were randomly assigned a role that is unlynchable and has some other powers. You're not alignment confirmed, and if you are town, you don't have any scumhunting tools we don't have. Agree with Andrius, or don't; either way, you'll have to explain your reasoning instead of appealing to your randomly assigned pretend authority.

[hitogoroshi]

Idea: All the scumbags are concentrated in one support group.

While I realize you're joking, just so everyone is clear - Zoraster very explicitly said that the mortal scum have been distributed randomly, BEFORE picking the scum immortal. The scumbags could be in one support group, but simple statistics dictate that's unlikely. (Assuming three scum, which seems about right for this size setup, there's only a 1/9 chance they're all together, and only a 1/27 chance they're together with the scum Immortal).

[hitogoroshi]

It depends how Zor randomized it as to whether it's my numbers or LL's. (And I humbly disagree with the "Statistics FTL" crowd - I think there's real power in being informed as to the odds for the various scum/immortal pairings.)

[hitogoroshi]

Can you explain why? Isn't who's acting scummy what matters? Why do we care about probabilities when they don't relate to anything in-game?

A lot of scumtells involve information being somewhere it shouldn't be. Understanding the probable links between mortals and immortals, scum and town, helps us track the information.

Though on reflection this is the sort of speculation better kept pocketed until someone actually catches something, so.

1. Short deadline or long deadline?
2. Double-vote or immunity?
3. Do you agree that questions look better when there are three of them?

1. Depends on the dynamic of the day. There are such things as too short and too long of days, and both of them are detrimental to the town. The first day should probably have a pretty long deadline, at any rate.

2. Double-voter seems pretty pointless today. Immunity is nice if a probably-getting-nk'd player pops up; otherwise it wouldn't be particularly detrimental to have them both off cooldown.

3. Ambivalent.

[hitogoroshi]

You mind bolding and coloring your text, NS?
Thanks.

Immortals do not take requests from mere Priests.

Cut the BEHOLD MY AWESOME POWER routine, please.

You were randomly assigned a role

that is unlynchable and has some other powers. You're not alignment confirmed, and if you are town, you don't have any scumhunting tools we don't have. Agree with Andrius, or don't; either way, you'll have to explain your reasoning instead of appealing to your randomly assigned pretend authority.

In The Court of The Gods Game Specific Rules

Immortal Gods

5. Though the gods will not be selected randomly, their alignment will be.

I am one of The Chosen.

Huh. I missed that. Seems a bit clashing with the whole Random-Assurance-Method but hey.

Regardless, the meat of my point is still intact. "Immortals do not take requests from mere Priests" is not an answer to anything.

[hitogoroshi]

Generally I like to open the day by voting for my favorite policy lynch target...but you know, none of the players I know here are people I want to policy lynch!

I'll settle for someone I know nothing about and

Vote: Brokenscraps

[hitogoroshi]

I'd like to see some pressure on Jack for an explanation of why he would lie about NS claiming scum etc.
If Jack continues to deny lying, and sticks to his story about NS claiming scum, I want him lynched. Worst case scenario, he turns up town, and we know which of the 3 gods is scum.

Sorry Spy and Andrius, but I think LLD is my favorite person here.

Unvote, Vote: Jack

[hitogoroshi]

We either catch a lying scum or learn which god is the scum god. HOW IS THIS NOT THRILLING

[hitogoroshi]

Okay, I get what you're doing, Jack. I still feel justified in the initial wagon on you- it's not a certainty that the scum immortal knows who the scum are, since a theme of this setup does seem to be "gather information in QT with your Immortal/your High Priests". Given that, it's not a huge leap to take your first post at face value, in my view at least. But you ratcheted it up to a zany level and TMH still jumped. I'm not quite sure if that's a newbtell or a scumtell, but regardless:

Unvote, Jack. Vote: TMH

Fun fact: if TMH flips scum, NS is one of the town gods.

Also, Equi is town.

[hitogoroshi]

Simple. He's stirring the pot and throwing suspicion on me. If I were lynchable, I'd OMGUS. Since I can't die, he's not worth the vote.

So what are you saying here? You don't suspect Jack, but you'd vote him to save your skin if your skin needed saving?

[hitogoroshi]

Vote: hitogoroshi

. Hello hito.

Hi. This just because I found value in the number-crunching, or...?

I'm not as willing as some to let go of TMH. I can understand why some people are interpreting his actions as more null than scummy, but he seemed a little too eager to follow along even when Jack ratcheted it up to screamingly obvious levels. If you were scum, and your god wasn't NS, you'd be pleased as punch to get the one-or-the-other narrative going, and you'd want to hold on to it as long as you can.

[hitogoroshi]

In other news, I'm pretty sure tajo is scum based on some communications in the QT.

Tajo's first post in the QT was as "tajo."

The second post was as "Anonscum" - tajo's alt is Anon.

I think he forgot to change the login after posting in the scum QT.

That doesn't seen like a scumtell. Why would Tajo post in the scum QT under a different name? Surely it's just a sign he was doing something related to a

different game

, yeah?

[hitogoroshi]

Did Fishy just use a time power on Jack? :p

[hitogoroshi]

hitogoroshi - I'm not sure why finding the scum god is a priority when we can't lynch or kill the God. Every town player worth their salt should be cautions of their God. The goal is to lynch or get the mortal scum.

Can you really not see the power of having two confirmed super-mason groups?

If we can figure out who the scum god is, we'll be in a very powerful spot, because we'll know who the town gods are. I do agree with you that

at this point in time

, everyone should be cautious of their god - but ideally we'll be able to figure out the scum god, or at least one of the gods as town, and then start to utilize the power of our little ingroups.

It's also worth noting that scum would absolutely LOVE to get their god "cleared" for spurious reasoning. I repeat - if TMH is scum, NS is almost certainly one of the town gods.

[hitogoroshi]

Oh damnit I hate when my top two townreads are fighting.

On the one hand, I don't think TMH is just town mislynchbait. Jack set up a gambity thing that quite a few people, myself included, jumped for.. I think Jack realized that it wasn't entirely obvious he was lying, so he took up the lie to an absurd level to demonstrate "Durr, obviously that first thing wasn't real." Pretty much everyone realized at that point that the (awesome if actually true) opposing alignments on Jack--NS thing wasn't actually true. TMH, though, clung on even as Jack began dousing his posts in crazy. To me, that smells like a scum who was trying to push something scummy, got called out, and reasoned "Well as long as I hold STEADFAST to the idea, no matter how wrong it looks, I'll look like a misguided townie instead of opportunistic scum." That seems like the only thing that justifies how tenaciously TMH is holding on to this Jack suspicions.

As well, I agree with LLD's [http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p2773495]311[/url]. It seems like he's desperately trying to get to a less controversial spot while simultaneously making sure to scream "BUT HEY, I SUSPECT JACK. I WILL ALWAYS SUSPECT JACK. FOREVER. BECAUSE AS LONG AS I'M DOIN THAT I WASN'T A SCUM TRYING TO SET UP A FALSE DICHOTOMY, RIGHT?"

But then I read stuff like Equi 303 and even though it calls my scum read town and my other town read scum it's all

so fucking reasonable

that I'm not entirely sure it's wrong. Equinox is oozing town and I don't like dismissing non-VI townies wholesale...

If anyone needs me, I'll be in the Chamber of Understanding.

[hitogoroshi]

The only thing I'm directing at you is the accusation of scum-coaching him along to another target. And admittedly that's not even all that strong of a case.

Coaching isn't a tell in a game with scum daytalk.

[hitogoroshi]

I'm about ready to put my hands up in the air and just admit scum, even if I'm lying out of my ass.

This is stupid.

It's useless, isn't it? It's all useless!

No, seriously, keep your head in the game. I don't know if I agree with your conclusions or not but you're definitely my strongest town read and I don't want to see you flaking Petra-style.

Take a thread break if you need it, lord knows you've earned it.

[hitogoroshi]

Thanks for spoiling the Doom Wall.

Spoiler: Herd you liek walls so I wrote a wall bout your wall

Did anyone ever explain the benefits of 50, 52, etc., were? I still don't get it, even with this from hitogoroshi.

I don't want to go into too much detail, because this is something I'm actively watching for, but lets just say that the scum god (assuming we ever find them) would have different reactions to having 0, 1, and 2 fellow-scum high priests, and it's possible (with a degree of error, certainty, but possible) to look at the gods reactions to their five followers and try to figure out what kind of distribution it is.

Well, hitogoroshi, that Jack wagon wasn't thrilling because you were trying to figure out which of the 3 gods was scum when Jack's flip would have provided no such information.

Yep! I thought it would have told us such then, though. Then Jack made his point clearer and I realized that things weren't as awesome as I hoped. That's a big part of my suspicion on TMH, honestly - because we started with the same interpretation, but Jack deliberately upped the ante in a way I KNOW is apparent to someone who's taking Jack ISO 0 at face value, because I was that person.

Fun fact: 2 minutes. Lady Lambdadelta and themanhimself aren't scum together. Useful, eh? I need to draw a diagram.

Just saving this one for when I ISO myself in the future.

Here in post 176, I run into the same problem again. Despite Lady Lambdadelta saying what he did in this post, his vote was still on Jack.

LLD is female. The "Lady" seems like a bit of a clue :p

Okay, now I'm feeling the DrippingGoofball-scum read. But what the fuck, Nobody Special is scum, too. They can't both be scum.

For what it's worth, I've gotten a pretty strong town-vibe from my QT conversation with DGB.

Of course, the scum god and priests knowing it was a gambit would've enabled them to give calculated responses. Spotting those might even have been easier than trying to separate townies wanting to lynch Jack for his lie from scum who see easy prey.

This still reads to me as trying to cover up a potential slip.

I'm not seeing it. Help a brother out?

By the way, hitogoroshi's insistence of his town read on me makes me really paranoid. I have to go check on a couple of things before I can pass verdict on this.

Okay, to be fair, I've mentioned a town read on you three times. The first was when I figured out the Jack gambit and I shifted quite a few reads around. The second time, I figured it was worth noting why I was feeling conflicted, with town reads arguing on both sides of the aisle. The third was simply because I was worried you were going to rage-quit out of frustration, and I figured it'd help to know at least one person really does think you're town and wants to see what you have to say. (And yes, I

did

read that whole wall thank you very much.)

While I like the DOOMWALL, I'm missing some of the links from there to your scum reads. You say "We all know why Zang is scum" but I'm not one of them. (There is a theory DGB and I are kicking around in QT, but it was mostly her idea so I'll leave it to her.) And while Feysal's 280 is iffy (Aww fuck, I suspected hito and Equi! I don't want to get tangled up with either of them!) it's the walking-on-eggshells hesitance that I see when I look at my own personal early town play. He has a terrible signal:noise ratio with his too-long posts, but I'm leery to rank him any scummier than our bumper crop of lurkers without seeing more. Of course, I'm biased after getting a lot of flak starting out for, essentially, being Feysal.

Speaking of bumper crop of lurkers...perhaps we should slow down a bit and let the other kids catch up. I've been in multiples games where a fast-paced town absolutely

killed

some of the townies.

[hitogoroshi]

When I said "we should slow down a bit", that was just at Equi and LLD, not fuckin'

everyone

.

So much about that, for now. My top suspects are SpyreX and Andrius. I've played with them both before with them as scum, and I am getting the same kind of feel from them now. For SpyreX, the read is mainly due to his early stance on Jack, and for them both it is about them being in the background without really doing much.

I can name more than a half-dozen people who are in the background without really doing much. What makes those two so special?

Jack is town. Futher, lying as town (the town gambit part) makes no sense when he upped the stakes. Thus, STILL AND ALWAYS, I am against lynching him.

Yeah, this has a lot of truth to it.

Or, to put it a different way: If I could summon a bullet to pierce the heavens and smote the false god, it'd be NS. And I'd be right.

Much like Me=Weird is going to be scum that floundered BUT ALAS.

I like both of these points. NS is, I think, the most likely scum god, and M=W's early rep out is a little grimy. Very interested to see what CMAR has to say.

[hitogoroshi]

LLD and Fishy looks town-on-town to me.

I am also suspicious of Spyrex (as I've mentioned in a couple of QTs). The main thing is just that he's done very little, which isn't something I associate with townSpyrex. Most of his posting has been talking about Jack/NS, which is the easiest thing in the game to come up with an opinion on.

From what I can tell, SpyreX is having some real life things and his activity is diminished in all of his games. Saying, "you're scum, because you'd be playing harder as town" doesn't seem exactly fair. Of course, this doesn't preclude him from being scum, but at least personally I like the little bit I've seen of him in thread.

I agree with the couple people who have said it, it's just sound scumhunting to suspect someone and also suspect someone who you find to be attacking them in a suspicious way.

A) bussing
B) you can be wrong about the first person

I have to echo this one. There's no rule saying all of your top scumreads have to make sense as scum together.

[hitogoroshi]

Wait, what?! Are you kidding me? That's like accusing Bill O'Reilly of being too liberal, it's the entire wrong side of the spectrum. I've never let up on jack for a second and I've cast only one vote this whole game. I said I thought you were scummy as well but I never once said jack wasn't the scummiest person in the game. This is such a misrep it's basically propaganda.

"BUT HEY, I SUSPECT JACK. I WILL ALWAYS SUSPECT JACK. FOREVER. BECAUSE AS LONG AS I'M DOIN THAT I WASN'T A SCUM TRYING TO SET UP A FALSE DICHOTOMY, RIGHT?"

DRK is so freaking obvscum for voting Me=weird for a stupid reason /trying to look active and scumhunter.

His M=W was an rvs vote on page 3; he recanted it for a more serious vote two ISO posts later. Surely you have some more substance than that...?

P.Edit: Well fuck me running, you really do. Objection withdrawn.

[hitogoroshi]

Pages and pages of back and forth battleposts...yuck.

Andrius gets a few points for such a motivated but slapdash catchup. While it was nothing too game-relevant, I envision scum being hesitant to say so much with so little attention paid to any one part. It's a risky signal for scum, too easy to make a slip.

I think DGB is almost certainly one of the town god(desse)s. Her contributions in thread are awesome enough on their own, but shes also been very active in QT, thinking of the implications of the masonry and trying to suss out scum. Multiply that effort by five, and I have a

really

hard time believing it's all scum putting on a show.

To that end, I like her points on Tajo. As soon as I started the game, I thought, "I want to start talking in QT, and talk a lot. Best way to figure out of DGB is a scum god or town god." She obviously thinks the same way about her followers, and Tajo apparently doesn't think the same about her. Personally, even if I suspected I had drawn the scum god, I'd still put a smile on and keep chatting, trying to confirm or deny my suspicions.

As well, Jack is correct that the wagon times really need to begin. So;

Unvote, Vote: populartajo

Also, since everyone loves lists:

Alpha Town Madness:

hitogoroshi, Equinox

Town

: Jack, LadyLambdadelta

Town-flavored-null:

Spyrex, Andrius, farside22, Feysal

Scum-flavored-null

: Zang, DRK,

Scum:

populartajo, themanhimself

Insufficient Data:

Mina, CMAR, Benmage

[hitogoroshi]

someone explain to me (specially these new voters) what is my scum motivation to get in a dog fight with someone who a)is influential as hell and b)cant even get lynched.

It makes plenty of sense if your god is Fishy. You get to defend scummy-as-all-hell NS for some brownies with him (and lets not forget which god he is), conveniently brush off Fishy as null, and go in guns blazing for DGB. Then, because she's so obvtown, when pressed you can give us all the WIFOM gambit of, "what is my scum motivation to get in a dog fight with someone who a)is influential as hell and b)cant even get lynched."

do you usually put yourself on your town lists?

Depends. When I'm listing each name on it's own line, I usually skip myself. With the categories, I prefer to be able to confirm I haven't missed everyone by counting and making sure I get the right number of players. (Though truth be told, that's mostly just the reason I did it this time; I can't even remember the last time I did a categories town-list.)

[hitogoroshi]

I need an honest opinon from other players.
Do you feel the QT is a good thing to have?
Do you use it?
What do you think of people that don't post much in the QT?

Absolutely.

Yes.

Likely scum. For scum, who have no actual scumhunting to do and no actual suspicions to discuss, QT's are just another chore that makes a Large game an even Larger commitment.

[hitogoroshi]

oh sorry brospeh

Does your Spyrex scum read have anything to it besides him not posting much? Because I am ten million percentages sure that his overwhelmed isn't specific to this game.

[hitogoroshi]

hitogoroshi: What in particular have you liked about SpyreX's play? (That said, I hadn't realized SpyreX had RL reasons for a decrease in activity.)

He explicitly advocates not voting Jack, I'm diggin his line of thought on M=W, and his confusion about how to resolve the Jack-TMH-NS situation seems honest. There's also the smiley face on his report card from our towniest of town Goddesses.

Also, do you see a difference between Andrius's big rambling catch-up posts in [REDACTED] as scum and here?

Yes, I do - less quality control here. Seems like scum would put less effort into generating content to keep the same level of editing, rather than vice-versa.

Jack/LLL and NS follows how is NS doing with his QT? Does he talk much there?

He didn't make QTs and doesn't talk much via PM. Yeah, we have the boring god.

[hitogoroshi]

I see me and Benmage are the last people who have not voted. My vote is doing no good unused, so I should fix that, but who to vote... Not going to support the Andrius wagon. populartajo I might, but I'll have to do a closer read of his posts first. SpyreX I'm feeling better about too. Oh well, guess I'll just leave a record that I suspected him, and change my vote when I know what I want to do with it.

Vote: SpyreX

What the hell am I reading.

Feysal, your vote isn't a tool for saying who you've suspected. It's a tool for

lynching the bad guys

. Do you really have absolutely no scum reads, no policy grudges, no SINGLE PERSON you want dead more than Spy?

You do make a good point about Andrius-town, though.

[hitogoroshi]

Sorry I've been a little scarce from this thread. Busy in other threads, busy in life.

Have an updated reads list to play with.

Alpha Town Madness:

hitogoroshi, Equinox

Town:

Jack, LadyLambdadelta, Andrius

Town-flavored-null:

Spyrex, farside22

Scum-flavored-null:

DTMaster, Feysal, CMAR

Scum:

populartajo, themanhimself, drk

Insufficient Data:

Mina, Benmage

[hitogoroshi]

hey hito, plz link me to another game where you have made town lists and you have put yourself in the list as well.

I actually tend to replace in to games more than I start in them, and so I'm more likely to do a total ISO of every player than a town list. I do
ISO my own slot when I replace in as town. (I've never repped in as scum, oddly enough.)

As I said before, I don't even remember the last time I've made a categorical town/scum list. But putting myself in lets me count to the player number which is nice.

also, could you update your suspicions on me?, i think it was a mix of "he is not using the QTs" and "wagons, hoho".

The abridged version: Some names on your reads list seems like you're deliberately giving odd reads to look town (Town reads on Mina and CMAR? Scum reads on Spy and I?). You've been a little to eager to give out "I wouldn't X as scum would I" WIFOM in thread (and from what I hear, in QT as well). Part of it is simply me sheeping almost-certainly-town DGB, seeing as she has a QT with you, which is a very strong way for someone to scumhunt.

DRK's interactions with you also seem incredibly forced and indicative of scumpals, though in fairness the DRK > Tajo point is much more odd than the Tajo < DRK one. If DRK continues to lurk and you continue to contribute, I'd be fine lynching DRK instead.

NobodySpecial:

Who are the three most likely scum?

[hitogoroshi]

Now, maybe, we can pull together and get rid of the Hope Diamond slot that curses all who touch it (because it is scum).

I agree that there really are Hope Diamond slots that are more than a statistical fluke. A player replaces in while far behind as scum. They peck at the occasional in-thread contribution while promising a "catch-up post"; but they are so nervous they'll "slip" as scum (and oftentimes the slots replace in with a bit of pressure on them) that they never feel safe posting the catch-up. That makes them lurk more, which gets more pressure and makes them worried more, and soon they too replace out.

I'm willing to let it slide for now because of DGB's report on the quicktopic happening, but I'll be keeping a strict eye on nopoint.

@Jack:

I'm curious as to how Andrius is one of your top two scumreads.

@Nobody Special:

Where did your farside-scum read come from?

DTM reads super-town off of these catchup posts. There are some points we disagree on (most notably re: Tajo), but too tired to argue, and he raises some novel points I want to mull on.

DRK's V/LA ends tomorrow; very curious for his input.

[hitogoroshi]

Tajo and DGB are interesting in that each have a specific meta/interaction based on whatever their alignment is. Leaning tajo-town, DGB could be town or scum but slightly more likely to be scum since DGB voting tajo doesn't make strong sense if DGB-town.

How does DGB voting Tajo not make sense if DGB is town?

I agree with dtm that fishy could be the scum god.

DTM's reasoning was on why he thinks Fishy

isn't

the scum-god.

Also, I'll repost this:

@Jack: I'm curious as to how Andrius is one of your top two scumreads.

Anyway, I mentioned earlier that DTM has raised some novel points I wanted to mull on. His point about Fishy-scum using his power right away has a lot of merit to it. Quick days would hurt. NS has been showing many signs of scumgoditude (his initial refusal to set up QT's and general reservedness being chief among them) and all in all, NS as the scumgod makes a ton of sense.

...but if NS is the scumgod, TMH is almost certainly town. He was forcing the dichotomy between NS and Jack far beyond rational limits. This makes plenty of sense if it's a false dichotomy and your scumgod is fishy. But if Fishy is a town god, the only interpretations that makes sense with TMH-scum are DGB as the scumgod (which she's not) or if that was TMH bussing his scumbuddy Jack (in which case I will eat every hat in every universe).

This also makes Tajo scum a little less likely, though his connection with fishy-scumgod is certainly more tenuous than TMH's. Currently having a little chat with DGB on that matter; I'll get back to you.

P.Edit: DGB and LLD both bring up a counter-case to DTM's ideas. I see where they're coming from; all the same, I think the minimum deadlines are so short that the claiming power play might still be stronger than keeping up the charade for Fishy-scum. And this is coming from someone who really does understand the sheer power two 5-strong masonries has.

[hitogoroshi]

Hito: Tajo-town always has a high statistical chance of catching DGB-scum. Somewhat verifiable fact. DGB is immortal so things are slightly different but DGB is kind of acting like scum in response to Tajo.

This is the same not-answering-the-question, only now with the word statistical in front. Let's say I wanted to 'somewhat verify' this 'fact'. What piece of info am I missing?

[hitogoroshi]

[hitogoroshi]

Andrius, as I was explaining to Hito.

Eh wot? I'm still waiting on why Andrius is one of your top two scum reads.

Anyway, I think it's time to exeunt from the Tajo wagon. I still have my misgivings about him, but I've talked at length with DGB about them, so I'm sure if I die she'll bring them up if needed. (The short version is that there seems to be a disconnect between his thread play and how he's approaching the QT; a sudden earnesty in one, but not the other.)

Of Feysal/DRK, I prefer DRK. He's been very lurky except when called on, seems very passive and defensive, and his interactions with Tajo are strained to the breaking point.

Unvote, Vote: DRK

As for Feysal, I'm torn. His play reminds me a lot of my early town play, in games like Mini 847, before I properly grasped good vote usage and bandwagoning. That being said, I can't easily peg whether it's newb-town or newb-scum, because if you don't understand good vote usage you're going to be pretty similar as town OR scum. (Sadly, that's mostly speculation, as I never had a scum game in my terrible-player phase.) Because of this unreadability, he's a fine policy lynch. I don't think his chances of being scum are as high as DRK, but I also don't think we won't be getting clear reads on Feysal at all this game.

Corvuus looks pretty scummy - almost moreso than DRK - but DTM's point about the scum god leaves me hesitant to push Corvuus at the moment. It's just too likely that NS is the scum god, and NS scum god means Corvuus is almost certainly town.

[hitogoroshi]

Jack's got a point that people will sometimes make up justifications where none exist if pressed (Don't know if you've read

The Black Swan

, Jack, but it comes with the hito seal of approval). You know as well as I do that nothing is happening to Andrius unless you back up your talk somewhere down the road, so I suppose it's not the biggest of deals that you do it now.

I'm gonna need it explained in more detail why DRK is cleared off of DTM's whateverthehellthing, because I'm not parsing the nitty gritty of his SWEETS GAMBITS, but whatever, I'll trust that DTM knows what he's doing. Not sold on Feysal-scum, but we'll probably need to eat this policy lynch sometime, and this is page motherfuckin 42 so lets get eugenic up in this bitch.

Unvote, Vote: Feysal

[hitogoroshi]

Hito's iso 37 is scummy on review. If you've read enough of DTM to know that you don't understand the gambit, you've read enough to know that it is not solid information in any way.

I was refering to this bit of DTM's:

Finally my analysis turned up that Jack and DRK are town. DRK called my claim stupid. Had DRK been scum he would have been silent. I quote: DRK hoped that I wasn't the doctor and was lying since I was putting attention on him. Rather then exploit a doctor claim DRK did the opposite and distrusted that my claim was true. Jack claimed the same thing saying that my claims could be modified due to NS.

I think it's very likely DTM is telling the truth, and while I don't understand specifically what lies he told to who, this part still seems pretty solid; at least enough to give DRK the benefit of the doubt for a day. How is this not solid information in any way?

Feysal is not being lynched as a policy lynch so I don't like the "eat this policy lynch sometime" bit.

I think the things most people are calling scumtells from Feysal (specifically his extreme unwillingness to vote and bandwagon) are more newbie-playstyle-tells. That being said, his playstyle is inscrutable and anti-town. So, from my perspective, he's a policy lynch.

This has been a GREAT 42 pages from my perspective but the scum must be hating it so his complaint is scummy.

Oh come on now. I agree it's been a very good D1 but days have to end sometime and you know it as well as I do. If I had asked on you on page 40 if it was time to end the day you would've said yes.

I like both hito and andy over drk, have yet to look back at corvuss/tmh.

In regards to Corvuus: I think he's very likely town with NS as the scum god and very likely scum with Fishy as the scum god. I think NS is by far the most likely scum god at this stage, so I don't want a Corvuus lynch.

[hitogoroshi]

Sorry for the wall.

I was refering to this bit of DTM's:

Finally my analysis turned up that Jack and DRK are town. DRK called my claim stupid. Had DRK been scum he would have been silent. I quote: DRK hoped that I wasn't the doctor and was lying since I was putting attention on him. Rather then exploit a doctor claim DRK did the opposite and distrusted that my claim was true. Jack claimed the same thing saying that my claims could be modified due to NS.

I think it's very likely DTM is telling the truth, and while I don't understand specifically what lies he told to who, this part still seems pretty solid; at least enough to give DRK the benefit of the doubt for a day. How is this not solid information in any way?

Very interesting, you tell me, considering you said:

I'm gonna need it explained in more detail why DRK is cleared off of DTM's whateverthehellthing, because I'm not parsing the nitty gritty of his SWEETS GAMBITS, but whatever, I'll trust that DTM knows what he's doing.

So, what wasn't solid information to you? Why did you need to trust, what couldn't you parse, and what did you need explained about "whateverthehellthing"? Since the only thing you say NOW that you were unsure of is what lies he told to who?

Alright, you're right that "pretty solid" was absolutely not the right phrase there. A much better one would be, "pretty unambiguous." While parts of DTM's line of thought are muddled and confusion, his conclusion of "town read on DRK" was clear.

As for what wasn't solid, I'm still not 100% how he expected to catch DRK-scum off of what he did. That's what I'm failing to parse. The trust part is that I assume if he walked in with DRK as his biggest in-masonry scum read (as seems to be the case), and he now has a town read on DRK, it's for a good reason.

That bit from DTM is very clear, it's just his read on what drk would or wouldn't have done and is very sketchy in fact. No reason for scum-drk to not call the claim stupid.

Surely there would be an incentive for scum-drk to play along even without believing DTM? The whole point of false information leaks is that scum or town would react differently to them; wouldn't DRK simply do the "town" thing instead of tearing down the game entirely?

"It's been a very good day one..." + "we'll probably need to eat this policy lynch sometime" =

Not seeing the problem. Good day one in that I got a lot of information on a lot of people. Didn't get much on Feysal, don't expect to get much on Feysal.

Going from this:

Of Feysal/DRK, I prefer DRK. He's been very lurky except when called on, seems very passive and defensive, and his interactions with Tajo are strained to the breaking point.

To outright trying to lynch feysal over drk just because of dtm's read on him shows that you didn't really care about your drk "scum read", or about who gets lynched as long as it isn't a buddy.

That's not really fair. I had a preference of DRK over Feysal because DRK seemed like scum, whereas Feysal was inscrutable and likely to remain such but less positively scummy. I prefer a Tajo lynch to

either

of these, but a Tajo lynch wasn't happening. So, I voted DRK. Then, DTM mentioned a town read on DRK, and the Feysal wagon swelled to include five of my six strongest townreads. It's not about "not caring who gets lynched" - it's just that I like both of these wagons. While I liked the DRK-wagon slightly more, if a strong town reads has reason to believe he's town, and the Feysal wagon is full of townies, and deadline is near, that's more than enough incentive to switch.

If either of these two (Corvuus or Feysal) are scum, Nobody Special is a town god.

I agree with this.

hitogoroshi, there's a competing wagon... one that you just left despite having a read. What are you doing?

They're both good wagons. DTM has a townread on DRK, and with the information apparently flying about in QT I suspect we'll have more to work with on DRK tomorrow. I don't think Feysal is ever going to give us much to work with by sheer virtue of his posting/voting habits. So, while my personal conviction is that DRK is more likely to flip scum than Feysal, if there is a.) a boatload of townreads that think otherwise and b.) hints that we'll have a lot of new info on DRK tomorrow, I'm easily willing to lynch Feysal now.

Here's the kick: I am considering a Corvuus wagon. Verdict coming soon.

What has your QT with fishy lead you to believe about his alignment?

He's been here since 10/2010 and he played mafia at other sites if you read his wiki.
Calling the play newbie-playstyle-tells, does not compute. Scum use those tells throughout MS.

Newbie isn't a function of time in the way I'm using it. It's "whether or not you understand the value of frequent voting/high-pressure wagoning/constant transparency". Feysal clearly either doesn't or is refusing to. My guess is the former, though maybe the meta you're mentoining swings it toward the latter. Regardless, I think there's enough value in the policy lynch, so any additional scum convictions are just icing on the cake.

I saw the post on the 13th and I kind of assumed it was a gambit. Figuring it was a reaction test, I tried to give what I thought would be the town response and was just like "lolwut?". I asked if I should still post DTM's message in thread, considering his discussion of messages passed around in the QT would make it obvious that message came from him.

what I thought would be the town response

[hitogoroshi]

Okay that's not at ALL fair.

Personal perspective: I have time to check MS most of the day. You'll see me browsing Theme Park more than not-browsing-Theme Park. But time to read =! time to post. About the only time time watching is relevant is a.) multi-day absence or b.) hours until deadline with X just needing to show up and vote.

[hitogoroshi]

Feysal has been scummy. I've been saying that ever since I caught the slip about which Feysal seems really confused. I trust a number of people on the Feysal wagon. The problem is that the way this wagon has gone about and some of the recent behaviors surrounding this wagon (e.g., DeathRowKitty and hitogoroshi) bother me. The other problem is the connection from Feysal to Nobody Special that makes me think that the two cannot be scum together; I am dead certain of this read, and Nobody Special has been scummy.

Does that Feysal <--> NS connection cut both ways? If Feysal is scum, NS is a town god?

Jack asked earlier why I'm still on the Feysal wagon. While I'm happy with both DRK or Feysal lynches, I think that DRK will have greater variance tomorrow. If he's scum, he'll probably collapse even harder than he is now - if he's town, he's got a chance to get his shit together. I don't see Feysal suddenly pulling a hail mary and getting into the game, in the way DRK could at least

possibly

do. Yes, DRK looks like hilariously collapsing scum, but we'll see what another day under the microscope does for him. DRK is more transparent; and while I've seen a lot of things I don't like, it it at least means that tomorrow I'll see more.

[hitogoroshi]

Oh also Equi, while I've got you, you missed this point (it was in my huge wall so I can understand why):

What has your QT with fishy lead you to believe about his alignment?

[hitogoroshi]

Hello to you too, Faraday.

Mod: It should be "Night One" for the two deaths in the first post, and "Lost Butterfly" instead of "Mina" in the vote counts.

Mod Note: Good catch. Fixing now

Vote pending; need to touch base with DGB about something.

[hitogoroshi]

How is what TMH did considered scummy? How did he "jump"?

The phrase I used in QT was "bayed up the madness tree." Basically, there was a false dichotomy set up where it appeared that either Jack or NS was scum. People who weren't so attentive (myself included!) thought it was a true dichotomy and voted accordingly. Now, if you're scum with a god who isn't NS, this dichotomy is excellent to set up, and if some townies agree with you on it, all the better. Jack saw this and signaled unambiguously ("NS told me you were scum") that

obviously

this was false, but TMH clung to it even when it was dizzying silly. It was as though he was saying to himself, "no matter how stupid this looks, if I never ever back down, I look like a townie!"

I find it odd for hito to do a RVS vote when there was actual discussion going on before.

Not RVS. I start days by voting for my favorite policy lynch target. I didn't want to policy lynch anyone I knew, so I settled on scraps, who seemed like a newbie.

Hito:
Do you know of a game where scum pushes a lynch like TMH did in the beginning?
Why did you think DRK was scummy?

I know there's a scum incentive to set up false relations and "test" one side.

What changed you views from this:

As for Feysal, I'm torn. His play reminds me a lot of my early town play, in games like Mini 847, before I properly grasped good vote usage and bandwagoning. That being said, I can't easily peg whether it's newb-town or newb-scum, because if you don't understand good vote usage you're going to be pretty similar as town OR scum. (Sadly, that's mostly speculation, as I never had a scum game in my terrible-player phase.) Because of this unreadability, he's a fine policy lynch. I don't think his chances of being scum are as high as DRK, but I also don't think we won't be getting clear reads on Feysal at all this game.

to this:

I'm gonna need it explained in more detail why DRK is cleared off of DTM's whateverthehellthing, because I'm not parsing the nitty gritty of his SWEETS GAMBITS, but whatever, I'll trust that DTM knows what he's doing. Not sold on Feysal-scum, but we'll probably need to eat this policy lynch sometime, and this is page motherfuckin 42 so lets get eugenic up in this bitch.

Unvote, Vote: Feysal

Why not vote for Corv?

Mentioned this already. Corvuus seems very scummy, but it's very unlikely he's scum with NobodySpecial, who I think is probably the scumgod. For that reason - and basicially that reason alone - I want to refrain from a Corvuus lynch until/unless Fishy looks scummier or NS looks townier.

That's not really fair. I had a preference of DRK over Feysal because DRK seemed like scum, whereas Feysal was inscrutable and likely to remain such but less positively scummy. I prefer a Tajo lynch to either of these, but a Tajo lynch wasn't happening. So, I voted DRK. Then, DTM mentioned a town read on DRK, and the Feysal wagon swelled to include five of my six strongest townreads. It's not about "not caring who gets lynched" - it's just that I like both of these wagons. While I liked the DRK-wagon slightly more, if a strong town reads has reason to believe he's town, and the Feysal wagon is full of townies, and deadline is near, that's more than enough incentive to switch.

Why not push the lynch that you believe will produce scum or push the one you believe to be the scummiest?

...I answered that in the post you're quoting! I had a slight preference on DRK, but then DTM came in with a town read and the overall gameflow seemed to suggest we'd have a lot more content on DRK tomorrow. The Feysal wagon seemed massively town-propelled, and quite frankly I was ready to end the day.

[hitogoroshi]

Vote: populartajo

I have word from DGB that he didn't use the QT last night and has in general been treating it like a chore. I consider this a scumtell in and of itself, but I think the difference is even more striking when you consider that I'm the only "scum" left on Tajo's list. Here is a goddess, all-but-confirmed-as-town because of her earnest efforts at scumhunting (seriously, if someone wants to call DGB scum, let me know so we can have words), and Tajo has a one to one line of communication set up with her. But for all of his claimed conviction in the thread, he seems to be putting forward strikingly little effort to make his point.

The wagon on me has been lazy in general, but in the case of Tajo specifically it's almost criminal. I sit alone on his scumlist, and yet he's never thought to ask the player with a direct line of communication to me why she thinks I'm town. I can think of a few explanations for this; I don't like any of them.

I'm not sure what to make of Benmage's post with the self-vote. The tone of it screams town, but it's a threat with virtually zero threat of building the wagon as advertized, and Ben

knows this

, so I have to wonder if this is going to end with the same "I wouldn't x as scum would I olol" that I'm already sick of seeing from Tajo.

[hitogoroshi]

What do you mean by 'lazy' in this case?

Leaning town carryover from D1.
Haven't really looked at him in awhile tbh.
Following DGB's lead right now.

Is there reading material Re: hito_scum orrr...?

Of course, his iso is great reading material for Hito scum! Or do you mean any specific points?

Specific points would be lovely, Faraday. <3

*silence*

---

DGB: I still don't see hito town and calling the case lazy is seriously wrong. He's been floating from one wagon to another and I don't call that town.

I think it's a bit misleading to say this without referencing the deadline. I tried to get Tajo lynched yesterday, but eventually deadline came up and it was clear he wouldn't be lynched by deadline. I chose one of the two deadline wagons; then something came up to make me want the other. Should I have not "floated" off of Tajo and shoved my vote up my ass with deadline looming? Should I have not "floated" off of DRK when virtually every townread of mine wanted the other wagon, with evidence/testimonials that I could be wrong and would see more on DRK? You seem to be advocating a bullheaded, petulant attitude of sitting on a single pet wagon and refusing to compromise. That's helpful only when you're very, very sure of your reads, and my scumdar has been off enough that I'm never that obstinate. When all of my townreads disagree with me, my first thought isn't, "HOW CAN SO MANY TOWNIES BE WRONG!?!?!", it's "what are they seeing that I'm not...?".

lol, I would be ignoring dgb in the qt too.

Elaborate, please.

[hitogoroshi]

You're also missing my point when I said that people not utilizing their QT are likely scum (I didn't name Tajo explicitly, but I think the connection is obvious.)

Also, while I agree it's bad practice to wait on making points until called on (I was busy, as I said, and let my standards slip), once those points have been made in reaction, I disagree that they somehow don't count. When I've said them, they've been said.

That list is pretty sparse, though - I forgot how much of my thought was in-QT. Sorry about that. I can paraphrase my points some other time, but right now I have homework due and I've procrastinated enough posting on mafiascum as is.

[hitogoroshi]

Persephone, darling, Equinox was protected by DGB last night.

[hitogoroshi]

Site is going up and down for me so let me dash out a quick post before it dies on me again:

Don't like the Jack wagon at all. The snipes for his jokes re: Mina feel opportunistic, I've gotten a fairly town (gut, granted) read from him all game, and overall the push on him just feels...wrong?

REALLY don't like Benmage's "lynch me today or never" ultimatum. It kind of feels like a scum gambit (self-vote knowing full well the wagon on you probably won't go through, then play rest of game saying 'you HAD your chance to lynch me, now you can't, neener neener).

I'm happy that Feysal is proving me wrong and actually playing the game. I'll respond to his points when I can count on the site not to shit itself and die.

[hitogoroshi]

We're not supposed to directly quote QT's, Tajo...that being said, this is a point in which Tajo and I (for once) agree completely. I can easily see one scum traitor fishing (Feysals 'about to get to know me' does actually sound like a fish), but I highly doubt it's a tell with the kind of strength to sweep a whole team, and I think that calling Equi's opening friendliness traitor-fishing is tilting at windmills to the extreme.

Now that the game is over, I can mention Bomb Mafia - NS's play as scum was pretty similar to how he's playing now. I don't know what scum meta Equi is referencing re: NS, but from my teeny-tiny one game sample size it checks out.

[hitogoroshi]

I'm pretty set on a hito lynch as he continues to be obvscum! I'll be not posting much due to marathon weekend for the rest of the day and Mina'll be back by Tuesday to agree with everything I say, but to use more words to say it.

Just making sure I'm on top of things - I'm scum for everything I've ever posted, right?

As for farside:

You're right that I defended spyrex. He looked town to me. That seems to be the entirety of your argument, though. Honestly, I think you're getting confirmation bias here. You're awfully excited to be voting for me again, and I think that's coloring your perception of events. Is everyone who thought Spyrex was town scum?

Regarding the "Hope Diamond" slot: he was talking about M=W's slot. A Hope Diamond slot is one where people replace in but then replace out because they're scum and too terrified of a potential slip to ever write a decisive catchup post. Calling that "a signal to bus" is an nonsensical interpretation. Andrius's blatant "vote DRK, sheep DGB" could maaaaaybe be a traitorcoach but that would only really make sense with DGB as the scumgod and she's NOT, so.

[hitogoroshi]

I'm gonna meet my Goddess halfway on this one and swap to the player whose alleged traitor-fish actually looks like a traitor-fish:

Unvote, Vote: Feysal

I didn't see SpyreX as town in anything he said and rubbed me the wrong way. What gave you the impression he was town at the time?

? As you said, I explicitly defended Spyrex. Look at the reasons I defended him for (that you quoted, no less) - those are the reasons I thought he was town.

As for the Hope Diamond comment it could be, but I see it has a signal.

But what information encoded in the signal? For it to be a "signal", it has to be relatively easy to decode for someone with the information that there's a traitor in the game. We now have that information, and yet I can't find any possible hidden subtext to that message. Walk me through exactly what you think the signal "means."

I've also thought of you as scum since I started naming scum and no even DGB's trust me doesn't really make me feel warm and fuzzy.

I'm not asking you to take my towniehood on blind faith. It's on me to prove that one, as always. I just want you to see that your constant "scum-read" on me has become a self-perpetuating thing that's making you take innocuous facts and turn them into "tells" so you can go back to voting me.

I can't be bothered to look but give me a cliff notes version of why you had a town read on SpyreX, if you could.

farside quoted most of them in her spoiler block, read that. Though I'll also add that, knowing his lurking was not specific to this game, the multiple assaults on him for simply "not being awesome" made me think of him as town a little more (I know, not everyone attacked for crap reasons is town, but it's helpful to think that way more often that not).

[hitogoroshi]

Hito: The only thing you say is you think SpyreX is busy site wide with RL issues
Busy =/=town?

Look at the bit you quoted but forgot the quote tag for:

He explicitly advocates not voting Jack, I'm diggin his line of thought on M=W, and his confusion about how to resolve the Jack-TMH-NS situation seems honest. There's also the smiley face on his report card from our towniest of town Goddesses.

[hitogoroshi]

@hito?
What line of thought did you dig for M=W?
Why is it that his vote stayed on M=W all day long and did very little scum hunting in the game bypassed you?

The idea of it being a "Hope Diamond" slot. I said this already.

Also hito:
What confusion do you see from SpyreX in regards to Jack-TMH-NS?

Read his early ISO. He thinks Jack is town and doesn't want him lynched, but he also doesn't want to dwell on the Jack<--->NS connection, and he's worried the town is going to fixate on it and have it end in a "perfect storm of WOOOAH."

I don't like hito putting a pointless vote on feysal... its like he's purposely avoiding the dreaded survival vote.

As I've said, I don't like the Jack wagon. Obviously, I like it more than a wagon on myself, but I think we can do better. I know the vote on Feysal is pretty weak at the moment (and other things take priority before I can expand on my thoughts), but I don't want to vote for Jack. (I have my reservations on you, but it's something to look at on future days. DGB has my last will on that point.)

If deadline was in two days, I would've voted for Jack. But it's not, so I didn't.

Looks like hito didn't feel enough pressure to comment. He was here and left without a word.

Okay, now I'm kinda pissed.

Firstly, as I've

already goddamn said

in my ISO 40:

Okay that's not at ALL fair.

Personal perspective: I have time to check MS most of the day. You'll see me browsing Theme Park more than not-browsing-Theme Park. But time to read =! time to post. About the only time time watching is relevant is a.) multi-day absence or b.) hours until deadline with X just needing to show up and vote.

Secondly, I'm especially not happy with the stupid time-meta because I'm trying to catch up in another game in Theme Park. I'm actually part of a hydra, but while I'm drafting, I'm reading the thread with this account (I use a chrome applink to post as the hydra, but prefer firefox for browsing). You're arguing, in essence, that any time spent doing any mafia that isn't this game is scummy. That's abjectly unfair.

And let's be honest here; if you saw any other name browsing theme park and not posting here, you wouldn't have said a goddamn thing. (Except maybe Jack, but he's under that multi-day absence category.) You're perpetuating your scumread by jumping at shadows where

nothing is there

.

[hitogoroshi]

Hito

Who are your top 3 scum? (Not the god)

Tajo, Feysal, you. Though I don't want you lynched today (again DGB has last will etc.)

Honorary scumreads are Corvuus (he's not on the list because I can't see NS not being the scumgod) and nopoint (hate his in-thread lack of anything, but he's got a shiny gold star from DGB so I'm letting the issue drop for now.)

[hitogoroshi]

...

you literally bolded it.

4 scum + scumgod is too much (day three LYLO?)

2 scum + scumgod seems too few (2 scum to 13 nonscum? o.O;;) Also I tend not to assume best-case scenarios like this.

Though with the traitor, I suppose that'd be 2 scum + 1 traitor + scumgod, assuming traitor counts as a head for endgaming. (if not I could MAYBE see 3 scum + 1 traitor + scumgod, especially if whoever killed spy is town aligned and not 3rd party)

[hitogoroshi]

Oh hey, DGB claimed for me when I was out.

You guys are right that I didn't want Spyrex shot. DGB said that there was probably scum in {DTM, Spyrex} and no way no how did I want to shoot at DTM who's hider claim smacks of truth (behind only Equi in my view.) So it was Spyrex, and we all see how that one turned out. (On that note, this make me particularily peeved at farside's anger of me "being far up DGB's butt." Yes, when I'm in QT with an unkillable townie who is active, talking with others, and a good scumhunter, I'm inclined to listen...and thanks to that, traitor-Spy is dead.)

I'm still busy as all hell but after I finish my (due in four hours) online assignments I'll try to add some more.

AGM is either town or scum with Benmage, I'm thinking.

I highly doubt Corvuus is scum with NS. Re-read TMH.

Equi: I'm not shooting you. I know it feels shitty to be a townie with suspicion on you (welcome to me-town, population me). But townies killing townies is madness. You've been one of the few big points of contention in QT (others being Spy and Jack/AGM) but I'm not shooting my top townread even if my Goddess doesn't share my conviction. She agrees with me that, if you weren't traitor-telegraphing, she has nothing else on you, and we're testing other elements of the theory before coming to you. You get killed only if Jack and Feysal flip scum and not before.

[hitogoroshi]

Whereas I argued, "Spy is just

busy

, his not-kicking-ass is a null tell, and there aren't really any real scumtells being attributed to him. But he's better than a DTM shot, I guess."

Egg on my face with that flip, let me tell you.

[hitogoroshi]

Curious as to what the town thinks regarding this:

AGM is either town or scum with Benmage, I'm thinking.

IF that's a valid assumption it's a good place to start.

[hitogoroshi]

If AGM is scum, you're his scumpartner.

If AGM is town, you are likely town, but the link isn't as strong as the scumlink.

^ is how I view it. Your actions make an awful lot of sense for a scumbuddy, but not a whole lot if AGM is town (why bust your nuts to confirm a VT?). It's not quite impossible that AGM is town and you're scum (you could be trying to gain a voter sympathetic to your cause..."hey buddy, I saved your life, surely I'm not scum wine wine wine"). But I think those are slim odds.

If that connection is sound, I want to lynch one of you/AGM, wavering between the two (I think you're independently more likely scum, but seeing as AGM replaced in without expecting to catch up, you'd probably get more productive work done with your probtown status, and obviously if you two are scumbuddies the order doesn't matter).

[hitogoroshi]

Then hitogoroshi also reminds me that themanhimself and Nobody Special could not be scum together. I can't remember for the life of me why I came to that conclusion at the time, but I do remember how strongly I believed it, which may be why I've given the pass to Corvuus for so long. But Corvuus... Corvuus... What's killing me right now is that I can't find anything in my QuickTopic with Fishythefish or my iso.

TMH was rabid about pushing that one of {Jack, NS} is scum. With scum TMH, town Jack and scumgod NS, this is nonsensical. With scum TMH, scum Jack and scum NS, the whole thing becomes cartoonishly impossible to believe. TMH scum only makes sense with Town-Jack, town-NS.

[hitogoroshi]

Rereading Benmage's actions with AGM. If one flips scum, we're lynching the other. The whole exchange is too suspect - from "claim now!" to "vanilla" to "unvote, full stop no more wagon". Ben wanted a replacement to come in just to claim, was dripping with hammerlust, but completely shut down the whole operation with a vanilla claim?

However, I think a negative is also definitive. Benmage scum wouldn't contort himself so much to save AGM town. AGM scum wouldn't walk in and claim vanilla immediately if he couldn't count on the unvote from Benmage. AGM and Ben are almost certainly the same alignment.

If I'm right, it doesn't matter the order.

If I'm wrong, I'd rather be wrong with caught-up Benmage alive instead of just-came-to-claim AGM.

Vote: AlmasterGM

[hitogoroshi]

I don't like this Corvuus wagon. It's really, really good if he flips scum, because that basicially guarantees Fishy-scum...but I don't think Fishy is scum.

farside, Equinox: Do *you* think Fishy is scum? Or do you think that TMH-scum bussed Jack-scum just to make NS-scum look town? Or do you think TMH-scum was screaming for a Jack-town lynch to prove that his god NS-scum was indeed a scum god? You have to believe one if you're gonna say Corvuus is scum.

[hitogoroshi]

People, make my job easier and show me you can articulate why you're voting AlmasterGM and Corvuus, please. If you've already done so, linkage would be good.

Rereading Benmage's actions with AGM. If one flips scum, we're lynching the other. The whole exchange is too suspect - from "claim now!" to "vanilla" to "unvote, full stop no more wagon". Ben wanted a replacement to come in just to claim, was dripping with hammerlust, but completely shut down the whole operation with a vanilla claim?

However, I think a negative is also definitive. Benmage scum wouldn't contort himself so much to save AGM town. AGM scum wouldn't walk in and claim vanilla immediately if he couldn't count on the unvote from Benmage. AGM and Ben are almost certainly the same alignment.

If I'm right, it doesn't matter the order.

If I'm wrong, I'd rather be wrong with caught-up Benmage alive instead of just-came-to-claim AGM.

Vote: AlmasterGM

I'm happy with an AGM or Benmage lynch. I'd compromise on nopoint. We're not lynching Corvuus unless it comes paired with a fishy-scum case.

[hitogoroshi]

AGM, Andrius is town. Sorry but that is just how it is.

Equinox: How much of your "Fishy is town read" is for positive reasons, and how much of it is for negative (e.g, NS is so scummy that the other two God(desses) are town) reasons? Feysal's report of the Temple of Time seems to be a little different than what you've said.

[hitogoroshi]

Also, if I do ALL this reading just for people to come back tomorrow and say, "ehhhhh I changed my mind, we're lynching AGM!" ... I will kill you. If you're going to lynch me, at least do me the courtesy of not making me read 80+ pages.

So, to be clear, from

both Ben and AGM

we have vanilla claims and "If you're going to lynch me, lynch me today" (Ben with his self-proclaimed '100% clearing' self-vote, and AGM just now with the reading thing). Am I really the only one who has a problem with this...? I'm willing to vote for nopoint, but if we're lynching them today or not at all, I much prefer today.

Also, AGM, when I say Andrius is town, I mean Andrius is

town

.

[hitogoroshi]

Hey while I've got you - you think there's a chance Benmage-scum PROTECTED AGM-town in the first place? When he replaced in expecting the hammer?

If AGM flips scum Benmage is gettiin shot like no tomorrow but if he flips town that basicially clears Benmage in my mind. Do you think otherwise?

[hitogoroshi]

It would have been a very clean, very easy hammer when AGM replaced in. Benmage said, "just claim, we're probably gonna hammer", and then AGM claimed VT, and Benmage

unvoted

. I don't see scum doing that to a townie when it would have been so, so easy to just sit and wait. AGM town/Benmage scum just makes no sense to me.

It's a dirty hammer for sure, and as hail mary bus cred trying to stay my hand I promise you it won't work. You have my word.

[hitogoroshi]

Fair point.

Alright, Benmage isn't completely off the table if AGM flips town. Still not my preferred shot, though.

[hitogoroshi]

Damn

it feels good to be a gangster.

No actually DGB earns an assist for that one.

My to-shoot list was: {Feysal, LB, Tajo, nopoint}

Tajo was my favorite, but DGB talked me into shooting Feysal instead. So all of you "lol hito so far up DGB's butt" kids can blow me, that's TWO scumbags shot thanks to the Temple of Rewards.

I'm really weirded out that both DTM and myself are alive. I suspect DTM was roleblocked (if scum don't have a RB when they're up against a hider and a vig...jesus) and me being given a free vig shot makes me think that the scumteam felt pretty safe from me. Feysal I can understand - the question is, who is/are the other scumbag(s?) who wasn't at all worried about me?

Could be Ben. But I did say I wouldn't take him completely off the table.

But there's also the question of why Tajo was killed. Cross-checking my blind spots with Tajo's scumlist, the most likely explanation that springs to mind is that I'm wrong about who the scumgod is. Corvuus would feel pretty safe banking that I wouldn't shoot him.

Vote: Corvuus

If Corvuus flips scum, Fishy's scum and (deep, heart-wrenching sigh) NS is town.

DrippingGoofball, town reads are dangerous, too. Nothing scares scum more than someone clearing town left and right, accurately.

Depends on the nature of the clear. It's easy to "clear" a townie in a way that's easy to take back come LYLO.

[hitogoroshi]

Awesome, I love getting mail~

your in-thread post is like the tracking info from UPS

[hitogoroshi]

unvote, vote: nopoint

Fishy+corvuus-scum is possible but DGB's gold star on nopoint has been removed and that's been the only thing going for nopoint since forever.

There are also FRUITY TEMPLE REASONS.

[hitogoroshi]

Hey DTM, while you're here. I can understand why you're saying there's a bus driver, but why are you sure it's town?

[hitogoroshi]

Right, here's my problem.

Apparently we've got a town bus driver with a clear on DTM and a guilty on scum...not claiming.

I didn't think it needed to be said, but: if you are this bus driver, CLAIM IT NOW CLAIM IT NOW CLAIM IT FUCKING NOW.

[hitogoroshi]

Quotes are a man's best weapon against confusion!

I'm pretty sure Equi is on the ball enough, but in case she's forgotten, I'll remind you guys that quoting QT's is badtimes that can lead to modkillinz. Paraphrase.

[hitogoroshi]

Aye, I think NS is town. We're still blinded by Jack's first 3 posts.

Bwah? You never mentioned this in the QT. What's the reasoning?

Hito you're being cruel and posting elsewhere :<

? I'm really not, aside from bullshitting stupid roles in MD.

Look, trying to clear on self-provided "scum wouldn't do x which is what I am doing" is normally something I like to lynch for, but we've had a townie do it this game (Tajo) and someone else who is probably a townie doing it (Ben, probtown after AGM's flip) and suddenly the tell doesn't fill me with the same passion.

Though I suppose we'd all look pretty goddamn stupid if you were pulling this as some ace gambit to save your skin, and we all know you love gambits...

This whole situation feels off and I don't want to rush in.

[hitogoroshi]

Do it do it. Frustrate the Equinox.

In terms of "doing things to help the town" this ranks somewhere around DEAD FUCKIN LAST

Let my tribute in blood be payed. Let it rope the Farside's potential slip that I won't be around to analyze.

If you could direct tonight's shot, who would you shoot?

[hitogoroshi]

If NS is town, and Fishy is scum, then suddenly Corvuus is looking far more likely scum. Of course before I push anything I'll have to re-read because I've been lazy about hunting for his alignment because NS looked soooo scummy.

And DGB Equinox isn't scum we've been over this. No scumbag will have such absurd activity on D1 because the best they can do is get a mislynch and getting a D1 mislynch is

easy

. Conversely, a townie could potentially call the scumteam and so might actually feel like throwing all of their mafia hours at a D1 game is worthwhile.

[hitogoroshi]

my gut absolutely hates this but if my temple AND DTM are telling me to vote DTM I won't keep dragging this out I guess.

Vote: DTMaster

[hitogoroshi]

Ugh.

As you could have guessed, I was severely opposed to the Equinox shot. But DGB did raise a strong point that it's interesting I'm still alive; clearly the scum has no worry that I'm shooting them. Equi would feel completely safe from a vig shot, and after Feysal flipped scum, DGB figured 1/2 on the traitor fishing was enough. Outsourcing my vig has been the winning move enough that I did it again even though Equi was towntowntown. Guess I should have grown a pair and defied the Temple - but, well, shoot two scum dead when your personal favorite target ends up flipping town, and tell me that you're still willing to scrap over your reads.

Hito, I would shoot the people who I called scum already. One of Farside/Courvis/Benmage. Preferred Courvis, then Farside, then Benmage in that order.

Vote: Corvuus

Though Farside and Benmage would certainly be feeling safer from viggins' than Corv...blah.

[hitogoroshi]

oh thank goodness now I can stop pretending I would willingly submit a kill on Equinox

My suggestion was Corvuus, Andy.

[hitogoroshi]

We've been operating under the fact that you're scum, since the scum haven't shot obvvig-hito. And now I'm outed so you have your chance.

wait what

so you think the scum shot tajo looking for the real vig

but I'm scum because I wasn't shot?

clearly the scum aren't going to shoot me if they've figured out I'm a meatshield. unless I'm missing something to what you're saying...?

[hitogoroshi]

Mod: Prod Corvuus please

SAIII is over, I can now say this:
Shooting my Cult-Buddies from SAIII worked pretty well for me.

Uhh...what is this? I was IN SAIII and I'm not grokking it.

[hitogoroshi]

nopoint, why Ben and not Corvuus? I'm having a seriously hard time swallowing Ben-scum after AGM's townflip.

[hitogoroshi]

Corvus is town from TMH.

Eh?

Ben hammered AGM so he can't be scum?

Benmage continually touted that AGM just need to show up and claim. He claims vanilla, Ben...unvotes. He had already justified lynching AGM on a vanilla; as scum, why not just hold on to that and get him lynched without rocking the vote?

As for the re-hammer - are you suggesting Benmage set-up a mislynch wagon, defused it at the last moment, then hammered it later at a much scummier time?? Scum ben would've either kept to the safe initial justification or avoided the wagon for towncred. He wouldn't have done what he did.

[hitogoroshi]

What's more, I'm more dangerous town than AGM so Ben was just waiting to jump on me.

[hitogoroshi]

I've said plenty. "Becuz they do that" isn't enough of a justification to make me vote a strong townread.

[hitogoroshi]

@Hito: Please explain why Benmage stated he would hammer AGM, then after the claim decided against it, just to hammer later?

Because he's a townie waffling and honestly scumhunting instead of scum trying to get a clean mislynch.

[hitogoroshi]

Yeah tbh that one confuses me too. I thought maybe they had figured out I was playing bodyguard for the real vig...but Andrius is pretty obviously the vig if not me, and an Andrius cardflip makes me look ten colors of scummy, so huh.

My guess is that they assumed I would miss, and two misvigs bumps LYLO ahead a day early. Corvuus and farside are the most likely candidates for scum who'd feel completely safe from me, and I've got much more of a townread on farside than I do Corvuus.

[hitogoroshi]

V/LA for a day - I just arrived home and I'm out with friends. Will respond to stuff tomorrow.

[hitogoroshi]

Still kinda V/LA - it's Spring Break, catching up with friends and family trumps mafia, but I have time to respond to farside at least:

Why Hito looks like scum:

Call's Feysal a policy lynch.

...and? I'm failing to see why this is scummy.

@Hito:

What happened with this thought process:

In regards to Corvuus: I think he's very likely town with NS as the scum god and very likely scum with Fishy as the scum god

Quite frankly, there aren't that many people left who could be scum. One of my assumptions, somewhere, is wrong, and I think the most likely one is that Fishy really is the scum god. Feysal's flip puts Fishy in a seriously negative light.

Defends Feysal's lurking

Reading Theme Park without posting is not, is not, is not lurking.

Why did you say this:

Jack asked earlier why I'm still on the Feysal wagon. While I'm happy with both DRK or Feysal lynches, I think that DRK will have greater variance tomorrow. If he's scum, he'll probably collapse even harder than he is now - if he's town, he's got a chance to get his shit together. I don't see Feysal suddenly pulling a hail mary and getting into the game, in the way DRK could at least possibly do.

...what the hell is this question? Why did I say that? I said that because that is what I thought, and I tend to say things that I think. Do you have a problem with it or what?

Also you agreed with DTM when he stated that if one of Feysal or Corvuus is scum that makes NS town god.

I don't remember being 100% on it, but yeah, it certainly suggests that.

However your reason's for not voting Corvuus was this:

Mentioned this already. Corvuus seems very scummy, but it's very unlikely he's scum with NobodySpecial, who I think is probably the scumgod. For that reason - and basicially that reason alone - I want to refrain from a Corvuus lynch until/unless Fishy looks scummier or NS looks townier.

And now Fishy looks scummier, and NS looks townier.

Also the votes that hito does place against Feysal are so weak it's sad. Day 2 was a temporary, whatever then states he finds AGM/Benmage scummier. Today Benmage looks totally town.

so I get endless amounts of shit for just wanting Feysal lynched to end D1, even though I supported DRK as well, and now I'm getting shit for not voting Feysal HARD enough? wheeeeeeeeeeee

[hitogoroshi]

You're forgetting the Gods, Andrius.

2 mortal scum

Mislynch today:

Three mortal town, two mortal scum going in to night.

Andrius mis-vig and scum kill on someone else: Come to morning with two mortal scum and the scumgod, and one mortal town and two towngods. That's gg.

scum kill Andrius: Come to morning with two mortal scum and the scumgod, and two mortal town and two towngods. LYLO.

Andrius successfully shoots scum, scum shoot some other townie: Come to morning with one mortal scum and the scumgod, and two mortal town and two towngods. It's MYLO.

No-lynch today:

Four mortal town, two mortal scum going in to night.

Andrius mis-vig and scum kill on someone else: Come to morning with two mortal scum and the scumgod, and two mortal town and two towngods. That's LYLO.

scum kill Andrius: Come to morning with two mortal scum and the scumgod, and three mortal town and two towngods. MYLO.

Lynch scum today:

Four mortal town, one mortal scum going in to night.

Andrius mis-vig and scum kill on someone else: Come to morning with one mortal scum and the scumgod, and two mortal town and two towngods. MYLO.

scum kill Andrius: Come to morning with one mortal scum and the scumgod, and three mortal town and two towngods. It's 5:2.

One mortal scum:

Mislynch today:

Four mortal town, one mortal scum going in to night.

Andrius mis-vig and scum kill on someone else: Come to morning with one mortal scum and the scumgod, and two mortal town and two towngods. MYLO.

scum kill Andrius: Come to morning with one mortal scum and the scumgod, and three mortal town and two towngods. It's 5:2.

Andrius successfully shoots scum, scum shoot some other townie: we win!

No-lynch today:

Five mortal town, one mortal scum going in to night.

Andrius mis-vig and scum kill on someone else: Come to morning with one mortal scum and the scumgod, and three mortal town and two towngods. 5:2.

scum kill Andrius: Come to morning with one mortal scum and the scumgod, and four mortal town and two towngods. 6:2.

Lynch scum today:

We win! Horray!

Hito: It's called scum bussing. Your vote and reasoning were weak.

I fail to see how weakness/strength is a scumtell. I didn't want Feysal lynched because he dropped some super scumtell - I just wanted him down as a matter of policy. (At least D1 - my vote D2 was a compromise on DGB's traitor-fish line of thought [that incidentally I was 100% correct about]). Are you saying that policy lynches are more likely to be busses than some other kind of justification?

Why did you not expect much from Feysal?

Because he was playing extremely poorly.

I notice you total ignored you 180 degree turn from one day Benmage scum to next day Benmage is town.

Yes, I did. I explained this in thread. Self-voting makes sense as a scum gambit. Completely derailing an easy wagon on a townie does not.

[hitogoroshi]

*predict hito voting for me based on no reason in the next 3 post of his*

passive agressive character smearing with no substance? oh boy my favorite

So finding a weak reason for voting for one player over the other is a town tell in your book?

No, it's null. What I'm asking is WHY you think it's scum bussing.

There was a wagon on town, and a wagon on scum. I was on the town wagon, but I really just wanted the day to end, and that combined with DTM's sudden assertion that DRK is town was enough to swing me to Feysal.

Are you saying that, as scum, I decided to disarm the growing DRK-mislynch wagon to try to get my buddy lynched?

[hitogoroshi]

Nacho and hito need to die. The only question is the order.

okay you know what, fuck it. even if I manage to pull some beautiful bullshit and get Nacho lynched and laugh as Andrius pings off my armor of might and glory I'm getting lynched tomorrow. My chances are pretty much just scrounging for a pity kingmaker but it's look pretty damn inevitable for me now so it's truth time.

I'm The Reaper. I even got a few sentences of flavor, which is more than you guys got (according to the first post) so ha. Roughly paraphrasing, I'm trying to become a God of zorasterland, but I can only do so when there are no other mortal priests.

I'm a nk-immune serial killer. I win when all mortals besides me are dead, or when nothing can prevent the same. I count as good for the purpose of the Corrupt win condition and Corrupt for the purpose of the good win condition.

Day one, I had energy. It was my first time pulling third-party and I wanted to make it count. I got in the game, I got involved in the QT, etc. The end dragged on a bit and I couldn't help but let my impatience slip through. A whoops on my part.

Night one, I killed Lady Lambdadelta. She was dropping PR tells, the biggest one being how quickly she came up with the action resolution information. It smelled like she had already been thinking about this. I actually suspected doctor, not cop, but I was right enough. Scum must've seen the same PR-tells, I'm guessing.

Day two, I have to point out the hilarity. People were correctly guessing I was sk -

for the wrong goddamn reason.

It was because of my "vig claim" to DGB. I claimed vanilla to DGB - figured it was safest.

(There was also Equinox's catching of my slip about the double-kills - that was 100% a legit slip and I wet my pants a little when she pulled that one out.)

The fact is, I just love being town too much. I could do some legitimate scumhunting - that's why I fooled DGB in the QT for so long, because I really was looking for scum - but motivation-wise it's just a killer. So I had pretty much resigned myself to death when LO AND FUCKIN BEHOLD DGB gives me the Vig fakeclaim.

It was pretty obvious with that fakeclaim Andrius was the vig. But why would I want him dead? I'm nk immune and more kills flying around is fine and fuckin dandy for me. So Night Two, I decided to simply start pruning down my detractors. Tajo had expressed wanting to lynch me even with the vig claim, so I shot him. I'm 99% sure the scum shot me N2 - why the fucking shitballs would they shoot Tajo?

D3 I was kinda meh. I had gotten the fake confirmation and I was just kinda rolling with it. It was a busy time for me.

N3, I was continuing to gun down my detractors. Lost Butterfly was next on the list. I don't know if the scum shot LB with me, or if they shot me again hoping it was a doctor who couldn't protect the same target twice. Or, hell, maybe they shot Equinox! I really wish I got a little message when scum hit my armor, but alas.

so yeah, that's what's up. my role is shitty because I have no immortal friends votin' with me. The fucking wasted kills are what did me in - the double kill n1, the wasted shot on me n2, and whatever the fuck the scum were jerking around with n3.

basicially here is my offer. I'll proxy my vote to whoever you like under pain of death, and in return, you guys take pity on me in kingmaker. fair?

[hitogoroshi]

Kingmaker = scenario where town can't win, but they pick the winner. I'm asking that you let me win THOSE scenarios. Giving out a kingmaker win is basicially free. And little kingmaker bubbles are inevitable with three factions.

If there's only one scum left and you lynch then today, then obviously I'm lynched tomorrow. But there are some scenarios where, if scum is lynched, I win, and if I'm lynched, scum wins. I'm just asking for the win there.

[hitogoroshi]

You've offered no way to joint-win,

Believe me, I'd love to (especially with Nacho here - I owe him one). But my wincon is phrased specifically to disallow joint-wins.

and only want to stick around to keep your ass alive.

Yep! To be honest I think I'm pretty much SOL, and I'd slightly prefer a town win to a scum win. As it happens, helping the town also gives me the outside chance of a kingmaker win.

[hitogoroshi]

also wait, if you think I'm normal scum, why not just shoot me...?

[hitogoroshi]

@Hito: If you stating that your game was to help the town, then shooting at those suspicious of you instead of those you found scummy tells me your lying your ass off about your win con.

Ooooh my game

wasn't

to help the town. I was going for a win by cultivating a hito-friendly town. My game is helping the town now only because it's my only shot at winning.

I'm not one of those bums who won't play to their wincon. This is just the new best way to get a win. It's long odds but better than my plan where I don't claim. (If you're curious, the plan was basicially: get Nacho lynched first, have Andrius shoot me, try to go to war with his credibility when the shot bounces off my power armor.)

Nope. Always 2 kills/night.

NO

FUCKING

KIDDING

I mean yeah, a three-kill night woulda confirmed there's an sk, but it would have been worth it to rush the game along. This game has been a drag. :/

[hitogoroshi]

Why the hell am I going to shoot him if he's got ARMOR?
Lynch him today. If he's SK, great. If he's mafia, BETTER. Then we go for the last one [?], if any.

Immortal Gods to help the scum endgame - one

Immortal Gods to help hito endgame - zero

If you don't think I'm actually sk - easy way to test