The Lord of the Rings Mafia - GAME OVER (KABOOM)

[Glork]

Vote: Cogito Ergo Sum

Oldbies seem to like that character. . It's kinda creepy.

VOTE: VasudeVa
CES is very obviously protown.

MafiaScum veterans unite! Under the banner of traditional values, we shall triumph over evil!


Also,

I've read the trilogy a couple times, as well as The Hobbit. Tried reading Silmarillion, but didn't finish. Read a couple of the Lost Tales. Movies are awesome, despite the casting of Liv Tyler. I <3 Eomer.

VOTE: Glork Hi Glork!

This post is possibly the most deliciously ironic post I have ever seen in my life. No jokes. (Also, hi!)

[Glork]

Vote: zwet

Arwen-miller makes 0 sense.

X

[Glork]

Unvote

VOTE: MemoriaEsporia

If the above wasn't clear enough, I just claimed scum.

Discuss.

There's really nothing to discuss. Anybody could say "I am scum and here are my scumbuddies" during RVS and I sincerely doubt anybody would legit care on ebit.

Now how about you do something useful like hop on an ME wagon.

[Glork]

EBWOP: I stand corrected. SlySly, are you playing at being dumbtarded, or do you actually believe there's significance to what Drippeth said either way?

[Glork]

Also, millers are better saved for Vigfodder than Lynchfodder. For super srs.

[Glork]

@Glork: Your vote on us in #73 looks serious; yet you have given us no evidence supporting why we are scum. Please explain why we are the best lynch candidate for today.

@Glork:

Why are you voting for Memoria Esponia?

I would say it mostly has to do with ME being scum.

[Glork]

EBWOP: I stand corrected. SlySly, are you playing at being dumbtarded, or do you actually believe there's significance to what Drippeth said either way?

Do I believe Drippereth is scum AND the listed scum partners are truthful as posted? No.

Do I believe Drippereth is using wacky DGB-tactics that I have personally seen be a hindrance to the town? Yes.

Mm, let's try that again. I guess my wording was unclear.

Do you think what Dripper said has anything to do with their alignment in this game? (Does it make them more, less, or equally likely to be scum than if they had not posted that at all?)

[Glork]

I would say it mostly has to do with ME being scum.

If you honestly think we're scum, we like to hear reasons why. Same question to inHamshallibe,

I would say it mostly has to do with the words you have posted.

[Glork]

BTW, inHim's post is super++.

[Glork]

EBOWP: Although Wraith deserves an honorable mention on the Scum List.

[Glork]

Actually, Wraith, the honorable mention is for your most contributive post:

Vote: Wraith

While the initial question was a good way to get conversation going, putting it into questions like you did doesn't really add anything new, and encourages people to go into detail about how much they like LOTR instead of starting to play the game.

If this is meant to be a serious vote,

IGMEOY Katy

. People who nitpick early posts and use them to start bandwagons are often scum.

[Glork]

The question to the mod seems completely irrelevant. When a scum claims the names of their scumbuddies, there's so much WIFOM going into that statement ("Are you the kind of person who would tell me their scumbuddies' names?") that the statement should be ignored by any competent player.

[Glork]

@Lynch: That Arwen-Miller claim actually makes sense to me. I think a couple of people here expressed hate at Liv Tyler-Movie Arwen

No response to my statement that my suspicion has nothing to do with one of your joke posts, and everything to do with your IGMEOY towards Katy?

[Glork]

@Zwet: Still wondering about that Arwen-miller claim. Any flavor to back that up at all? If you're fake claiming miller (since my experience with you is that you like to fake claim) what town motivation is there to fake claiming miller?

From a strategic standpoint, claming your millerness is the only correct play.

If the Miller were to be investigated and found guilty, they would wind up claiming to be a Miller anyway. By claiming a Miller on D1, they are effectively giving the town a free public investigation, by saying "Everyone has investigated me, and they have found me to be "guilty" (or "scum," or whatever the mod chooses to use for results). However, I am not really scum, I am a Miller."

From that point on, what the town chooses to do is largely out of the Miller's hands. The Miller's job at that point is to continue to hunt scum as best as possible. Ideally, they would prove themselves to be enough of a threat to get nightkilled, but more realistically Millers are usually lynched (if they are suspicious) or Vigged (if they aren't particularly suspicious) sometime in midgame.

[Glork]

@Lynch: That Arwen-Miller claim actually makes sense to me. I think a couple of people here expressed hate at Liv Tyler-Movie Arwen

No response to my statement that my suspicion has nothing to do with one of your joke posts, and everything to do with your IGMEOY towards Katy?

I think I explained my reasoning in the post you are referring to. I find people who nitpick early posts very scummy.

Can you explain why you chose to vote Katy over it and completely ignored the over-the-top, blatantly unnecessary amount of nitpicking MEscum showed in his attack on Gandalf:

Can we please stop with the claims already? I don't see the purpose of claiming when the day just started today and no one is in any danger of being lynched. Maybe I can see why zwetchenwasser claimed as it makes sense for a miller to claim very early in the game, but gandalf5166 had absolutely no reason to claim this early whatsoever. None of the votes on him were actually serious and no one expressed intentions on voting him. Let's look at gandalf5166's claim:

- He's Gandalf with flavor saying that he's so awesome that no one could believe he's scum.
- After declaring that, he becomes a Tree Stump with a vote and a JOAT.
- He can do any actions but can only use three actions per Night.
- Said that disadvantage to saying Gandalf is that he has to type the word out.
- Mason with Gwaihir who is his permanent bodyguard until Gandalf claims and he becomes a jailkeeper afterwards, but that Gwaihir cannot claim.

Conclusion: This claim is so unrealistic it hurts, even by a Large Theme standard. My response to his claim:

- I have limited knowledge of the series yet people with half a brain should be smart enough to realize that the flavor definently doesn't look near believeable.
- The point of a Tree Stump is that they live, but lose their votes. A Tree Stump being able to keep his vote after stumping himself doesn't make any sense to me.
- There is no way in hell that he could be able to perform any sorts of actions in here. Gandalf is not God. I also find being able to use three Night Actions per Night incredibly unlikely.
- If your role is that powerful, then I can't see the disadvantage of claiming being that small.
- Once again, this makes no sense to me. You claim an incredibly powerful role yet the disadvantage to claiming is that you have to type out his name. Yet your suppose mason partner is not allowed to claim. Even if you claimed that both were at equal power (Which I've already said doesn't make sense), I still can't see that part being true.

And another thing, if your role is litterally that powerful, then unless every other townie were a Vanilla Townie, this game would be completely broken in favor of the town, not to menton scums would have to be very very strong as well.

I can't see this possibly being a town role, so therefore, I think you are scum.

Unvote, Vote: gandalf5166

---

Katsuki's #40 is a lot of random nonsense that doesn't add anything to the game. I don't see any purpose on how it can help town in any shape or form.

[Glork]

Tomayto, Tomahto. You still chose to go after Katy, while completely ignoring the elephant in the room.

[Glork]

(This sudden silence is deafening.)

[Glork]

Honesty like that will pay dividends. Honestly, that's probably the best answer you could have possibly given, and it gets you off the hook for the time being.

[Glork]

Fine. I'm shutting my mouth until something important happens. Now let's watch what happens next.

Please don't. Your observation re: Katy was a relatively good one, I just felt it was incomplete because it ignored the most egregious sinner. Your explanation of why you left ME out is believable and has satisfied me.

That said, ME's post attacking Gandalf is far and away the scummiest thing. His continued, feigned disbelief at Gandalf's behavior

in the RVS

tells me that his original "suspicion" was disingenuous at best, and more likely downright malicious. That's why ME needs to die today.

[Glork]

This game needs significantly more ME votes.

[Glork]

Glork's 142 makes sense and I understand it but the opposite is just as possible.

Hey everybody if I come up guilty its NOT 'cause I'm scum but a miller.

While I doubt a scum could win the game based on a fake miller claim they could certianly skate by for a few days. But to be fair to Zwet he did admit to fake claiming long before he was hammered. But in that same game you used your RVS vote on your scum buddy. Did you do it this game as well? So here's a

THEROY

You and Zwet are scumbuddies. Zwet fake claims miller 'cause you know that b/c of his past he woun't get lynched.

Oh, don't get me wrong... I am

NOT

saying that I believe Zwet is telling the truth about his claim, and scums do fake-claim Millers to get cops turning in another direction. My 142 was just a description of what "Propoer Protown Miller Behavior" should be, and an observation of how they are usually treated.

After hearing the number of terrible plays/claims Zwet has made in the past, I am disinclined to believe any claim he makes at any stage in any game. I would judge him based solely on gameplay (which has been somewhat lacking in the early stages of this D1).

[Glork]

STOP BITCHING AND "WOE IS ME"-ING. Think half your posts have been so if I'm not mistaken.

Just the first paragraph would've sufficed.

Do you think Wraith's "bitching and woeisme-ing" is indicative of his alignment in any way, or do you merely find it distracting to the game itself?

[Glork]

Skimmed the last ~3 pages on my phone. Clearly ME's confidence in said bet comes from knowing who his scumbuddies are. Why isn't he dead yet?

Wraiths is frustrated town but announcing that he is going to lurk is a big sign that says "VIG ME." The while self-pity thing has gone on since I first suggested he was scum, and it has gotten old fast. Post or perish.

I am surprisingly disinterested in the Haylen situation.

Will opine more later.

[Glork]

Wraiths is frustrated town but announcing that he is going to lurk is a big sign that says "VIG ME." The while self-pity thing has gone on since I first suggested he was scum, and it has gotten old fast. Post or perish.

X

Don't take my big red X and use it against me!
Srsly, though, much of the pressure on Wraith looks scum-driven. There are plenty of other, better candidates for lynch. Like M.E.


Also, fwiw, I almost always put myself on protown lists. There's no reason not to, really.


Pre-Edit:

4. Edge (Fate/ReaperCharlie hydra)

HERRRRP.

[Glork]

Spyre and WeirdRa f'sho. Kat is pushing the envelope, too.


Seriously, read this post and tell me it's not coming from lazy scum:

Vote: Wraith

Reasons:
First off, why is nitpicking posts early scummy? It's generating discussion, which is good. You still haven't given past experience of that, despite being asked multiple times.
Then, you whine about this always happening to you, which is basically AtE with a side of self-meta defense.

Not really liking mariyta's "good points about the kill".

~M=W

"I'm going to wagon the guy who's flailing about and say 'I agree' about another hot topic, and contribute nothing else of my own."


Spyre's isn't any better, tbh:

<------Is glad Haylen is dead and thinks town shot her

Fate get out of my brain.

Unvote, Vote: Wrath

Seriously. This is so ridiculous if you were pulling it with ANYONE but Fate I'd be calling poor bussing teaparty.

It is also worth noting that Spyre voted for Weird in his first post with some nonsensical reason, commented on Weird in his follow-up, and has since then said mum. Startgame distancing? Most probably.

[Glork]

ZOMG TINFOIL HAT TIME.


Here's Spyre's followup post that I alluded to earlier:

I could see the rope there.

However, that doesn't change my even greater distaste for the way Weird approached all of this mess.

And, if all of said mess is town I'll be a little surprised. I can't shake out the scum in it yet but that many wacky hijinks gives a pause.

The "I could see the rope in there" is in reference to the early ME pressure, and we have already established that ME needs to die posthaste.


So half our scumgroup is Spyre/Weird/ME. Money in the fucking bank.

[Glork]

Also, Fate, the "Throw hands up fuck it" moment was when he said "fuck it, I'm just going to lurk because this shit's retarded."

I know what happened in SEIII. I was ass-backwards D1. That doesn't mean I'm going to follow your lead here (though you are obvobvtown).

[Glork]

Potentially dumb question to both Wraith and Kats:

How do you define "coaching," and what does it have to do with a player's alignment? I'm not really sure where that part of your discussion fits in with anything, because it sounds like you guys are defining it differently and considering it a scumtell, which does not fit my own interpretation of "coaching" people in mafia games.

[Glork]

Potentially dumb question to both Wraith and Kats:

How do you define "coaching," and what does it have to do with a player's alignment? I'm not really sure where that part of your discussion fits in with anything, because it sounds like you guys are defining it differently and considering it a scumtell, which does not fit my own interpretation of "coaching" people in mafia games.

I've never needed "coaching" because I've always been the Dominant Scum Partner in every game I was scum. So I really can't define "coaching" for you.

If you can't define it, how do you know you don't need it? Also, what in the bloody he'll does Dominant Scum Partner mean? Old-timers like myself aren't familiar with these newfangled phrases and their boom boxes and their basketballs.

Seriously, there's a generational gap here, and that's making it a little difficult to ascertain certain things.


On a completely unrelated note, DGB's recent slew of posts leaves me a little uneasy. I swear, every time she agrees with me and/or sounds entirely reasonable, she's scum. That said, Glork being protected could always go without saying.

[Glork]

It is also worth noting that Spyre voted for Weird in his first post with some nonsensical reason, commented on Weird in his follow-up, and has since then said mum. Startgame distancing? Most probably.

Nonsensical?

Weird went "this is what happened in the game" and

any

stance he took was qualified in that not stepping on toes way. That's bad mojo. .

It's nonsensical because

IT WAS THE TOP OF PAGE FUCKING THREE

. What the hell were you expecting from him at that point?

Not buying it.

[Glork]

No, SpyreX is way too full of shit, and there's a decent chance he's scum with Weird.

Unvote

VOTE: SpyreX

[Glork]

Actually, in all fairness (and part of me hates posting this because I believe Weird is scum for entirely different reasons), his first paragraph is probably a simulpost (within 6 minutes of Katy's) that accurately analyzes why Katy went after Wraith in a serious manner. The second paragraph is a call for flavor on the Arwen-miller claim. I will concede that the Gandalf comment is useless and unnecessary.

Plus, it doesn't change YOUR behavioral pattern of "let me get a super early game vote for a meh reason, overjustfiy it, but ultimately go after the terribad popular wagon on the other guy." Nor does it change the fact that your vote on Wraith was severely lacking in general.

[Glork]

Also, Wraith is totally :goodposting: right now.

[Glork]

STARTED POSTING IIOA.

FYI, this is completely untrue.

He doesn't explicitly say "THIS IS WHAT I THINK," but the conclusions he is drawing from his observations should be very obvious.

Zwet claimed miller, defended himself, and has lurked. Funny enough, I believe somebody earlier in the thread (I'd have to go back and look) suggested that claimed millers won't contribute and will lurk their way through the game until they get strung up or vigged.

His parallels of Kats/inHim obviously imply that he believes there's a connection.

[Glork]

Would you consent to lynch WeirdRa today and Spyre tomorrow? 'Cause I think I can swing that way.

[Glork]

Plus, it doesn't change YOUR behavioral pattern of "let me get a super early game vote for a meh reason, overjustfiy it, but ultimately go after the terribad popular wagon on the other guy." Nor does it change the fact that your vote on Wraith was severely lacking in general.

Like I said, that whole flailing with Fate IF IT WAS ANYONE ELSE would be a terrible attempt at a bus. As it sits, it is capitulation under pressure.

What does "if it weren't Fate, it would be a bus" have to do with Wraith's alignment?

"Blah blah, hypothetical that has not come to pass" does not imply that someone is scum.

[Glork]

Okay, so you're saying "Fate is town and Wraith is scum" but you haven't bothered to give us the nitty gritty as to WHY you think Wraith is scum. All of your justification has come in the aftermath of the Fate-Wraith exchange, which also FOLLOWED your vote.

Vote => Post-Justification = scum.

[Glork]

EBWOP: "...which means it has also FOLLOWED your vote." Wording was a little unclear there.

[Glork]

Also, I was appealing to Fate about a Weird then Spyre lynch. I know you've been pigeonholed into busing Weird, and though I don't normally negotiate with terrorists, if it nets us two scumbags I'll roll with it.

[Glork]

What?

Unvote, Vote: Wrath

Seriously. This is so ridiculous if you were pulling it with ANYONE but Fate I'd be calling poor bussing teaparty.

Pretty sure I've just be rehashing what was there when I voted.

That exchange was absolutely ridiculous and amazingly scummy in its weaseling. Like I said here. And before. And again. And again.

I'm not sure which tree you're barking up with this but I'm sure its the wrong one.

WHY is it scummy, and HOW is it weaseling?



For your convenient reference, the Fate-Wraith exchange IN ITS ENTIRETY can be found from Post 254 to your vote in Post 265. I want to know what posts/words/phrases from Wraith don't sit well with you, and WHY they didn't sit well with you. Explain in FULL DETAIL, and don't leave anything out.

From my end, all you do is kiss Fate's ass by agreeing with Haylen, then follow him onto an already growing bandwagon on Wraith. It's fucking terribad. Horrible. Which is why you're scum.

[Glork]

FWIW, there were two votes on him (Fate/Edge was third), and Kats had recently expressed displeasure with Wraith with the "vig him tonight" suggestion.

Given surrounding context (Wraith's /wrists attitude; the paranoia explained from his earlier exchange with Katy; meta on Fate), I think "OMGUS Bandwagoner" is an entirely reasonable response, and is perfectly consistent with a wallowing-in-self-pity-townie.

[Glork]

Wouldn't that imply that any elven characters are millers?

Not gonna lie, that's not especially convincing. Zwet, if you were lying about any aspect of your claim,

NOW

is the time to admit it. Because beyond this point, if you are shown to be a liar -- your fucking terrible play in the past set aside -- I personally will make sure you die as quickly as humanly possible.

[Glork]

Actually.... what do people think about doing some kind of partial massclaim, like a raceclaim? I doubt it would be enough to hint at role-specific information (unless the setup only has like two hobbits in it, or some weird shit like that), and it pigeonholes the scums in case they don't have a set of massclaims lined up already.

[Glork]

Unvote, Vote: Zwet

There's some serious bullshit in here.

[Glork]

Gandalf: True, there are a couple of roles that would have very unique races. Vast majority would seem to come from men/elf/dwarf/hobbit, though, and I don't think anybody could have discerned "Motivator" from Aragorn's character.

[Glork]

It's possible the scums have fakeclaims already (which would render my raceclaim suggestion invalid anyway). Claiming a "major name" doesn't do shit for me, honestly.

The benefits of scum claiming Miller off the bat should be pretty obvious. Cops won't investigate them, ever. I don't think it's an

especially

smart play in most situations, but there is merit to the strategy.

[Glork]

EBWOP: Nah, Gandalf, I've already changed my mind about wanting to do a raceclaim. I hadn't really thought about scums having fakeclaims until Spyre said "why would he claim a major character right away," and now that I *do* think about it, it seems exceedingly likely. Raceclaim won't do jack for us.

[Glork]

Also, fakeclaiming Arwen wouldn't really be that risky. She's minor enough I could easily see her not being in the game.

What about the other eight Fellowship members? I'd bet cash money that

at least

one of them is not in the game, and is provided as a fakeclaim.

[Glork]

EBWOP: The point I'm trying to get at with Gandalf is that, trying to play setup speculation is probably a bad idea. He claims that he could have guessed at Aragorn's role based on being a leader, and that he could speculate on the likelihood of certain characters being in the game. I'm saying that kind of thinking is awfully dangerous, because it can taint your perception of claims in an unhelpful (or worse, downright destructive) manner.

[Glork]

Also, why'd you say "the other eight"? You realize I'm not actually Gandalf, right?

Aragorn is dead. There are eight remaining in the game.

[Glork]

IN OTHER NEWS.

I'd like to hear ME's thoughts on all this recent biz. I think he's made one post since Haylen's death, and he's still on my radar.



Preview Edit: Holy shit, posts.

Here's the dealio:

Wrath, Weird, Zwet.

One bullet. One rope.

Who gets what. Why?

False dilemma, much?

[Glork]

That's NOT what I'm getting at. Good lord man.

OHHHHHH, you were asking those three to answer.


I thought you were naming those three and asking which two the rest of the town would want to kill, and in what manner.


Nevermind, carry on.

[Glork]

I really don't like a couple things about Glork, though:

- The bandwagon against ME seems trumped up on very flimsy evidence and I don't like how he pushed it, nor do I like how much support it got so easily. I've already given my thoughts on why scum might fake claim Gandalf and so I find it interesting that Glork suddenly began pushing his ME wagon harder when ME showed suspicion of gandalf the player after the fake claim, and that it gained support really quickly after that too.
- I don't like the raceclaim suggestion. There are a ton of reasons not to want a race claim, some of which have been brought up and even someone who's only read the books or seen the movie once could guess that there's one character who it is best is not revealed, since they are likely to be very powerful and important, and raceclaiming would narrow it down considerably. Conveniently, Glork never claimed his familiarity with flavor so he can probably just say he didn't know.

Vote: Glork

Can you explain to me why you are so bound and determined that ME is scum? Is there anything besides the fact that he was suspect of gandalf's fakeclaim?

Nope, just the fakeclaim thing. I've already explained that his refutal of the fakeclaim was completely unnecessary and over the top. For a response to a RVS fakeclaim, it does not fit the bill of a townsperson. As for the degree to which I've pushed ME:
1) I haven't seen him do anything worthwhile since attacking him, so I have no reason to change my early game opinion of him.
2) My behavior is extremely typical of my D1 play. Honestly, I'm too lazy to provide examples, because I'd have to sort through literally hundreds of games over the last five years. But you're more than welcome to ask inHim, CES, Mariyta, mole, or anyone else who is familiar with my gameplay. Standard Operating Procedure for me.

As for the raceclaim thing: In case you didn't notice, I redacted my request for a fakeclaim within like five posts of making it. I already made it abundantly clear that, once I realized scum had probable fakeclaims, that doing a raceclaim would have next to zero benefit. I'm not even sure how you can say "Glork suggested a raceclaim, but quickly decided it was a bad idea, so that makes him scummy." Because without the second clause, you're taking the raceclaim thing in extremely limited context. I will freely admit that the raceclaim suggestion was poorly thought out, but I don't see how you can call it scummy when I myself decided it was a bad idea before 90% of the game had read it. :rolleyes:


Wraith: I will straight up tell you right now that inHim is like 97% likely to be town. Consider it personal meta. That's probably not a very good place for your vote to be.

Unvote

VOTE: WeirdRa
If the Vig is the one who killed Haylen (which seems likely -- I agree that an SK would have shot someone much more high-profile), Zwet won't die until tomorrow. While that bothers me a little, I don't mind giving Weird the rope today.

[Glork]

This means you'll have to give me a case in Weirdscum INDEPEDENT of supposed SpyreX connections, Mr. Glork

I'm pretty sure I've already expressed my extreme displeasure with the manner in which he joined the Wraithwagon. If you'd like me to repeat myself, I will, but I don't really feel like it right now.

[Glork]

EBWOP: I should clarify that that's far and away the bigger reason I don't like Spyre. The WeirdRa connection was really a natural conclusion based on finding them both suspicious independently and then seeing Spyre appear to distance from D1. It's a supporting reason to want them both dead, but the individual suspicions came first.

[Glork]

OHHHHHH, you were asking those three to answer.

I thought you were naming those three and asking which two the rest of the town would want to kill, and in what manner.

Nevermind, carry on.

No no you were right that I'm talking to Kat et anyone else who is cool enough to answer (I'd LOVE them to but you know how it goes).

Its not that those are the ONLY choices. Its a function of, within those three, what makes sense with what. Not "THIS HAS TO HAPPEN TODAY" but, given what we are working with, what would YOU do.

In that case, it still bothers me a bit. In today's meta, players seem extremely wagonny, and generally unwilling to stick their necks out to go after someone new. Presenting those three choices, then coming back later and saying "well no, those don't have to be the only choices" doesn't do a lot for me, because most of the players who see and respond to it will probably include at least one of those three in one of their options. IDK. I guess it's not that different from the kind of browbeating that Fate or I tend to do, but it feels coercive.

As for what I'd do, I don't know. There are a handful of people I wouldn't mind seeing dead, but not really anybody I'm 100% dead set on killing. My top four would definitely be:
Weird, Spyre, Zwet, ME
Though I don't know in what order I suspect them. I think they'd all make reasonable lynches today, and based on who dies with what alignment, I'd choose my vig target then.

[Glork]

Blah. After thinking some more, I'm starting to agree with Fate that maybe my suspicion of SpyreX is more because we are operating on completely discordant wavelengths than because Spyre is scum. Tentatively remove him from my list of People Who Need To Die.


I'll have more later, including a list of People Who Need to Post Or Perish. Quick version: ME, Jenn, Locke, a2rude, SlySly, mole, rewq, bv.

[Glork]

I told you to call it personal meta. I can safely say that, given the manner in which he has posted, he is extremely unlikely to be scum. This comes mostly from having played with inHim for several years. I can read him extremely well, though I have a harder time articulating it.

[Glork]

PREPARE FOR SCATHING COMMENTS.

You need to learn what "WIFOM" means. It's true that we cannot definitively determine the alignment of the daykiller, but that has nothing to do with WIFOM. There's no "Are you the kind of person who would put the poison in my goblet, or his own" discussion here.

As for the avatar bets: I don't think that making out-of-game promises based on in-game words and actions is within the spirit of Mafia. There are too many logical loopholes to make it worth anything. That, and I think that throwing around avatar bets in the manner in which you do is rather tasteless. Years ago, they used to be a very Sacred Pact, and you're trivializing them. ("I want some random Scummer I've never associated with to use a different avatar for a month." Neat!) I have no interest in making an avatar bet right now, especially not over a mafia game.

inHim laid his suspicions on a sliver platter in most of his early posts, and when he got disconnected with the game yesterday, promised to muse and post further today. Your accusations of "nothing but fluff" are entirely inaccurate and little more than the same weasel-wording you're accusing Katsuki of. I would also argue that your accusations of "general fluff" towards Kats are inaccurate, so I can't help but question your definition of what "fluff" is. If you want to accuse someone of posting non-content in the absence of providing suspicions, you MUST provide specific examples. These unsubstantiated claims do nothing but make you dubious.

Finally, regarding your list: Yes, my list was an "eye test" of who is looking for scum in the last the last 36-48 hours, and you didn't pass. I would argue that it's no less accurate than your list of Post Counts, which does not at all account for the CONTENT of said posts. For example, while you've made 14 posts (15 now), the plurality of them are RVS/RQS posts, and the HORRIBLE over-justification of your HORRIBLE case on Gandalf's OBVIOUS JOKECLAIM. I also find it HIGHLY INTERESTING that you've refused to acknowledge how superbad your attack was, or that it's my main reason for suspecting you. You're trying to discredit me on random other accounts and ignoring the reason that I've explicitly stated that I feel you are scum. I believe we call that TEXTBOOK STRAWMANNING.




I have re-convinced myself. Fuck Weird, we can make him post later.

Unvote
Vote: MemoriaEsporia

[Glork]

*fingers involuntarily start typing out a vote for ME*
No, that scum can be lynched tomorrow. He'll probably get NK'd tonight any ways

I love how in your last post, you voted for Wraith and asked for Zwet to be lynched, and now you're saying that "that scum" will "get NK'd tonight."
Just how many vigilantes do you think we have?




Super minus points for Gandalf here.

[Glork]

EBWOP: Asked for Zwet to be vigged, sorry. That was my Freudian Lynchomaniac wanting Zwet dead still.

[Glork]

EBWOP:

I also find it HIGHLY INTERESTING that you've refused to acknowledge how superbad your attack was, or that it's my main reason for suspecting you. You're trying to discredit me on random other accounts and ignoring the reason that I've explicitly stated that I feel you are scum. I believe we call that TEXTBOOK STRAWMANNING.

So, I did some re-reading to refresh the memory, and ItalicsHead actually *did* address this. He said something like "my other head is retarded and said he was joking." I want NonItalisHead to explain in full detail what the fuck he was thinking with the attack and his follow-ups to said attack. 'Cause I'm not buying what he's selling yet.

[Glork]

The "join date" comment is ridiculous, and you know it. That said, there is something to be said about players who have played together frequently being able to meta one another. There are a handful of players (Thok, petroleumjelly, CES) who can read me like a book, and I'm asserting that I can do the same for others (such as inHim).

Feel free to reference this post from Square Enix III. (NOTE: That post references SquareEnix I, where I correctly meta'd inHim as town. In SEIII, I correctly meta'd him as scum. In this game, he is almost undoubtedly town.) inHim isn't getting a free pass merely for a join date. He's getting a free pass because I can objectively say that, based on his posts, his play is much more consistent with him being town than with him being scum. Wraith was wise enough to put a degree of faith in what I said, though he (correctly) takes my words with a grain of salt. You seem more interested in flately rejecting whatever I say by any means you deem fit.


Also, the scenario with inHim's list and your attacks are fundamentally different. You accused both inHim and Kats of posting primarily "fluff." I define "fluff" as "words without a shred of scumhunting/suspicion." I asked you to provide proof, because I don't think that either inHim's or Kats' behavior fits with your basis for attack.

inHim has absolutely provided suspicions. His lists have been largely unsubstantiated, but he has let us know who he suspects, and that's certainly more than "fluff."
Kats has had *some* fluff, but has also provided a very thorough set of suspicions via lists, votes, and additional attacks. I would also argue that, what you call "weasel-words" are a null-tell unless they replace scumhunting altogether.


ME's ItalicsHead, I'm curious to know your thoughts on the following players:
Zwet
Fate/Edge
Jenni
Drippereth

[Glork]

Kat's lists are crap. They can be summed up almost entire as "list of people I'm buddying up to" and "list of people who I think town won't object to me calling scum" and in both cases Kat neither provided justification for the lists, and in one (when I directly asked for it) flatly refused to do so.

Like ME, you seem to be missing my point. I'm not conducting an analysis of the lists themselves. I'm conducting an analysis of "suspicions presented versus non-scumhunting-related words posted."

[Glork]

Kat's lists are crap. They can be summed up almost entire as "list of people I'm buddying up to" and "list of people who I think town won't object to me calling scum" and in both cases Kat neither provided justification for the lists, and in one (when I directly asked for it) flatly refused to do so.

Like ME, you seem to be missing my point. I'm not conducting an analysis of the lists themselves. I'm conducting an analysis of "suspicions presented versus non-scumhunting-related words posted."

Do you honestly think Katsuki's posts in this game have contributed in a strong way to scum hunting? Do you think the lists have helped her do that (something that Kat claims the lists are there to do)?

Kat claims the lists are there to organize her thoughts (yet puts herself on the list. Why someone needs to organize their thoughts about there own alignment I have no idea) and to scumhunt (I'm not sure how one uses a list to scum hunt, and I certainly do see how Kat is doing so).

I'm not worried about Kat for a couple of reasons.
1) I think Kat's putting himself out there. Making full scum/town lists is pretty defining, and it's the kind of thing that will allow most other players in the game to definitively determine your alignment by D3 or so. Now that in and of itself isn't a reason for scums to avoid doing it, but it's not a tactic, but I'm not worried about it on D1 because if Kat's scum, I'll know it for sure by D4 at the

absolute latest

... and probably by D2/D3, depending on who dies as what alignments.
2) To be completely frank, I use lists from time to time to organize my thoughts as well, and I often put myself on them. I don't see why you see this as being a big deal at all. (I'm having a hard time finding examples because 95% of my games are archived, and it's impossible to search users' posts in the archive, and I don't actually use the word "list" every often anyway.)

Lists are extremely helpful for figuring out numbers ("Okay, these people are scum, and these people are town, so there must be X scum among these remaining people.") and looking for associative tells ("X is scum and Y is scum, let's see if I can find a connection to show that they're both scum together.")


Outside of Kats' lists, I'd like to know what you think of the remaining posts/attacks/gameplay. If you want to dismiss the lists, that's your perogative, but Kats has done more than just post lists.


PEDIT: Lots of :words: in other posts, I'll read them and EBWODP if necessary.

[Glork]

...the scum are easily identifiable by their race-claim, and the flavor of the source ties closely to the flavor of the game.

Only scum could know this.

UNVOTE: Drippereth

VOTE: MemoriaEsponia

As much as I enjoy seeing people vote for M.E. right now, you really ought to re-read that sentence in full.

ME says "Raceclaim

is only good if

..."

[Glork]

Quick, Jenni, if you're still here!

Who are your top three scum candidates at this moment in time? Why?


No thinking, just answers. GO GO GO GO!!!

[Glork]

HOLY SHIT, THERE ARE UNVOTE TAGS, TOO?


Shit just got real.

[Glork]

HOLY SHIT, THERE ARE UNVOTE TAGS, TOO?


Shit just got real.

Did you just notice that? Epic fail. You're clearly scum.

I did just notice. I do not fail. I am not scum.

I also just noticed the new emoticons. I'm kind of a post-conversion idiot, in case you aren't already aware.

[Glork]

"Other scumteam"?


UNVOTE: M.E.
VOTE: Gandalf

Guys, I got one.

[Glork]

As in, scumteam that's not ME's scumteam. Lol.

I'm not really sure what leads you to believe the are multiple scumteams at all.

[Glork]

EBWOP: Other than being a part of a small scumteam, of course.

[Glork]

Umm....... I've only once been in a large with only one scumteam, and it was a bastard mod with three SKs. I kind of assume that larges have two scumteams.

This game begs to differ. In fact, according to your wiki, of the 4 completed large games you've played, 2 had two groups and 2 had one group.


You dirty liar.

[Glork]

EBWOP: Sorry, two of three. Still, nowhere NEAR enough reason for you to assume that all larges have multiple scumgroups. Not buying it, you can please die now.

[Glork]

EBWOP: AUGH. Two of FIVE. Two with one group, three with two groups. Fuck me and numbers tonight.

[Glork]

Please ask any questions you would directly like me to comment on.

Who should we lynch? Why?

Ahahahaha.

:goodposting:

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Glork]

Glork if you're still on then hear me this:

If you get to meta defend one player (InHim) I get to meta defend gandalf. That "slip" was just gandalf's VERY recent experience with large game+dosscumosteamos, so take it in the frame of context.

He's careless, moronic town. As scum he is much more cautious and cunning.

The fact that shady names like Katsuki and LMP just hopped on him for it should ring more bells. I dunno what Spy was takin to the bank but I could care less if he shamelessly wagons

Uggghhh. Fine.

UNVOTE: .
VOTE: WeirdRa

[Glork]

MemEsp: Please compare and contrast the lists/posts provided by Drippereth (up to the point where I asked for your opinion on them) from the lists posted by inHim.

[Glork]

EBWOP: In fact, I'd like

BOTH

of your heads to compare Drippy to inHim. You can go first, assuming you're still here right now, but make sure your other head does the same.

[Glork]

Had a busy Friday, will likely have a relatively busy Saturday and Sunday as well. Fortunately (actually, probably unfortunately), it looks like this thread got quieter in my absence.
GUESS I'M GONNA HAVE TO KICK IT UP A(NOTHER) NOTCH.



Re: Gandalf -- This has bene the one thing I've thought about extensively while not being able to read the game, because what he posted still bothers me quite a bit. I think I'm willing to take Fate's word for now and not lynch him yet. If there turns out to be only one scumgroup, then it was obviously an honest mistake, but if there are in fact two scumgroups I'll have to seriously reconsider. Gandalf situation is one that will probably resolve itself once we see a couple of bodies, so he's probably not the best lynch right now.

[Glork]

EBWOP: Just skimmed Page 25 before I go to bed (no idea why the fuck I'm still up at 5am here), and the Jenn/Nero exchange gives me bad vibes about Nero.

On a semi-related note, <Insert Obligatory Chainsaw Defense Is Crap Statement Here>.
The "Chainsaw Defense" is one of the least accruate "tells" in Mafia, because any decent protown player *SHOULD* be pointing out and debunking terrible attacks. I swear to god, somebody uses this to go after a townie in virtually every game I play, and they still seem to think it's legit. It's a non-tell.

[Glork]

Gandalf meta case is the only part of the case on him that is bullshit. Also, I can't tell if rewq is being strange or not.

Who is most likely to be scum right now? Why?

Suppose I were to Dayvig that person right now, and they flipped as scum. Which player is most likely to be their scumbuddy. Why?

[Glork]

Ohh and FTR:

gandalf5166 - 8 - zwetschenwasser, Cogito Ergo Sum, Katsuki, SpyreX, WeirdRa, Drippereth, SlySly, Katy

This list if Gandalf is scum?

COVERED IN IT.

Under the 2 scum groups being true theory there's probably 3-4 scum in that set.

This is ABSOLUTELY true if Weird is other team scum.

I'd argue that even if Gandalf is town, there's at least 2-3 scums on that wagon.

On a semi-related note, Drippereth looks like scum.

@Kats: I honestly really can't decide on Gandalf. My knee-jerk reaction was "HURR DURR SLIP," and I still think that's very possible, but if Fate says that Gandalf is legit, I feel significantly less confident about it.

I'd probably be willing to switch to Gandalf if we can't get Weird lynched today, but I'm happier with a Weirdlynch, because he looks like he's probably scum regardless of the Gandalf situation.

[Glork]

...but if Fate says that Gandalf is legit, I feel significantly less confident about it.

You trust Fate's scumdar? I love Fate, but I have little faith in the accuracy of his instrument.

-DGB

Mason shenanigans aside, he played quite solidly in SE3. As far as I can recall, that's the only time I've ever played with him. So yes.

DGB, how do you feel about Gandalf? How do you feel about the people who have been most adamant about lynching him? What about the people who have joined his wagon quietly?

[Glork]

I'm decently certain Drippereth is scum.

[Glork]

I'm decently certain Drippereth is scum.

What makes you certain? I have a neutral reading at the moment, leaning town.

DGB's posts especially come across as someone who isn't really trying, just going through the motions. Her suspicions are very run-of-the-mill, and she seems to be making a concerted effort not to draw anyone's ire.

What really seals the deal for me is that in the same post where I said they were starting to look like scum, DGB quoted and commented on another part of the post and completely, 100% ignored my voiced suspicion of her, which is

VERY

unlike DGB-town.

[Glork]

MemEsp: Please compare and contrast the lists/posts provided by Drippereth (up to the point where I asked for your opinion on them) from the lists posted by inHim.

Comparing just the lists? Drip made two lists that I can see in their entire ISO (posts 0 and 3). Both are RVS reaction fishing lists since they are supposed to contain Drip’s scum buddies, IMO.

InHim’s lists on the other hand pepper his ISO. They clearly aren’t intended for reactions but to show his suspicions, per your arguments. They pretty much replace any semblance of scum-hunting from InHim.

Let me ask – what scum-hunting comes out of this request?

I don't want just the lists, I wanted your general opinion of Drippereth's first dozen or so posts.

[Glork]

EBWOP: Actually, go ahead and take a look at Drippereth's first page (25 posts).

[Glork]

DRIPPERETH: WHY ARE YOU SCUM?

[Glork]

No deal.

[Glork]

WeirdRa should probably claim right about now.

[Glork]

Drip explain why the * is there.

Explain why you aren't voting WeirdRa.

Actually, I'd like everyone not voting WeirdRa to tell me why they aren't.

Wouldn't the better question be: Why are the people on the WierdRa wagon voting WierdRa?

Only if you firmly believe WeirdRa is town.

Well, with the possibility of having two scumgroups as brought up by Gandalf, there could easily be scums all over this wagon. I actually agree with Wraith's request. I'd like to see reasons beyond it being close to deadline.

[Glork]

Wait, so the fact that the rules SAY that there's another scumteam make it MORE likely that I slipped, rather than that I made an assumption?
*facepalm*

If you had

immediately

pointed to the Mafia Win Condition and said "this pretty much tells us that there are two scumgroups," I'd be 100% fine with you. But the fact that you came to apparently the right conclusion for completely different reasons makes me wonder if it was mere coincidence or something more.


That said: Okay, there are definitely two scumgroups. Numbers suggest 3-3-19, or 4-4-17, depending on power role distribution. Leaning pretty heavily towards 4-4-17, because that just sounds more correct.

[Glork]

*checks empty Hydra qt*

*sighs*

WeirdRa's latest posts don't seem indicative of town that is being run up at the deadline.

HRMMMMMMMMMMMM

(this observation brought to you by CAPS INC.)

A++

BTW, we are lynching Gandalf tomorrow if he doesn't get vigged.

[Glork]

WEIRD RA, CLAIM.

NO STALLING OR EXCUSES.


Thanks in advance. <3

[Glork]

Mehhh, at this point I'll jump to Gandalf if I absolutely have to. Failing to lynch would be a terrible, terrible thing.

[Glork]

It's been WeirdRa claim time for, like, 48 hours.

[Glork]

Glrok, who do we lynch today?

I'll figure it out later. I just got home from the hopsital like 20 minutes ago (friend got in an auto accident last night -- seriously, never drink and drive, folks) and I need some sleep.

[Glork]

Okay.

Gandalf was Vigged obviously, prolly by Legolas. Scum have no reason to go after Gandalf last night. Knowing there are two scumgroups, and with what several players thought was a "slip," Gandalf would still have been lynchbait today.
The Daykiller is probably an SK, Gollum, and may have been attempting to pose as a Vig D1 by killing Haylen.
Drippereth + MemEsp look like scumgroup kills, with LMP having tried to protect a scumbag.
Mordor Mafia is Mordor Mafia. Other Mafia is probably Saruman/Uruk-Hai or somesuch, which fits with the hail of arrows that killed MemEsp.

Looking at LMP's iso, he spent basically all of his time going after his suspects. No mention of who he thought was protown, so we won't be able to glean potential scums that way. Literally the only thing I see is relatively early in the day, when he said MemEsp's 465 and 471 give him "warm fuzzies." But MemEsp turned out to be protown.

One thing I do

NOT

like is Nero's hypothesis that LMP used his ability to scumhunt. Targeting somebody you think is likely scum is, from one's own perspective, likely to get yourself killed. And without some kind of breadcrumbing (which I cannot find), that just doesn't make sense to me. Furthermore, I don't see how "corrupted" would indicate that LMP was looking for scum when he used his ability. Nero's reason to support going after Mari/Kats is rather artificial here.

That said, I do not have terribly good feelings about Kats anymore.
Mari doesn't strike me as scum. She's definitely not scum

with

WeirdRa (D1 wagoning in a two-scumgroup game is pretty terribad, and Mari was really early on Weird).

I'd say that WeirdRa's lynch had at most one scumbuddy (probably middle of the road on the lynch), and 2-3 scums from the other group on it.


VOTE: Nero Cain

[Glork]

-p-edit: Why Nero Cain?

Try reading my post, champ.

[Glork]

EBWO: Also, VV, what do you think of the kill on Haylen yesterday?

[Glork]

I did. SpyreX suggested it first though. Why aren't you going after him?

Because SpyreX is protown. This was well established yesterday.

[Glork]

EBWOP: Okay, I just read LMP's last post, and that's a pretty clear breadcrumb (though if I were taking this approach, I would have named maybe two people to target, not four).

UNVOTE: Nero
VOTE: Katsuki

[Glork]

I did. SpyreX suggested it first though. Why aren't you going after him?

Because SpyreX is protown. This was well established yesterday.

Fair enough. (I personally don't see SpyTown though~)

What about you, what do YOU think of the Haylen kill yesterday? What about the possible Sauron mafia members who were counterwagoning gandalf(Rewq, Slysly, Cogito, Katy) during the gandalf vs. WeirdRa

(v. Katsuki)

wagon?

Gandalf was Vigged obviously, prolly by Legolas. Scum have no reason to go after Gandalf last night. Knowing there are two scumgroups, and with what several players thought was a "slip," Gandalf would still have been lynchbait today.

The Daykiller is probably an SK, Gollum, and may have been attempting to pose as a Vig D1 by killing Haylen.

Drippereth + MemEsp look like scumgroup kills, with LMP having tried to protect a scumbag.
Mordor Mafia is Mordor Mafia. Other Mafia is probably Saruman/Uruk-Hai or somesuch, which fits with the hail of arrows that killed MemEsp.

As for the second part:
Honestly, Rewq hasn't struck me one way or another, and I'm not sure what all the hubbub is surrounding him. I will re-read him in the next couple of days and figure that out.
Slysly is a decent candidate for scum.
CES was a swing vote against Weird during the rival wagons, so I'm not even sure why he's on this list.
Katy is probably protown. Her posts come across as genuine, and while it's possible to "genuinely scumhunt" in multi-faction games, I'm not getting anything from her.

[Glork]

UNVOTE: Kats
VOTE: SlySly

I will follow Fate to the ends of the (middle-)earth. (OH HO, PUN!)


pedit: Wrong, Zwet. When scums are lynched D1, you don't want to thin out the scumpool even more by crosskilling. If you think that Gandalf is part of the other scumgroup, you want to make yourself look really good by being all over his ass on a lynch.

[Glork]

BTW, I'm toying with the idea that VV is the one who bused Weird. This really only becomes plausible if Kats flips non-Mordor. VV's "get off of Weird and onto Kats" then "gah, fine, we'll lynch Weird" post reads "I'm going to try to get the wagon moving in a different direction, but if it doesn't work, I want to look like the swing vote."

[Glork]

Did you like not read the thread before you posted?

I did not recall such a breadcrumb when I first posted. After the fact, I went back and re-read LMP's last post and decided you/Spyre are probably right.

[Glork]

I did. SpyreX suggested it first though. Why aren't you going after him?

Because SpyreX is protown. This was well established yesterday.

Just wondering, wern't you the one calling for spy's neck yesterday? What changed this?

Early on, yes. I changed my mind during D1, and posted as such during D1.

[Glork]

Nah, I'm quite all right with Spyre for now, especially since MemEsp flipped town. There is still the early (Pages 1-3) interaction with WeirdRa, but it by itself isn't nearly enough to make me want Spyre dead, especially if Fate is so certain that Spyre is a good guy. The next two gamedays will go a long way in determining Spyre's alignment, but right now there are a bajillion better targets.

[Glork]

Blah. After thinking some more, I'm starting to agree with Fate that maybe my suspicion of SpyreX is

more because we are operating on completely discordant wavelengths than because Spyre is scum

. Tentatively remove him from my list of People Who Need To Die.


I'll have more later, including a list of People Who Need to Post Or Perish. Quick version: ME, Jenn, Locke, a2rude, SlySly, mole, rewq, bv.

HERRPAFUCKINGDERP, KATSUIKI.

[Glork]

The "corruption" flavor of the Morgul Blade concerns me re: LMP's death. It probably means either he targeted a Mordor member, or that he was actually targeted/killed by Mordor. I suppose both of the arrow kills could come from town... a Vig and a JoaT for example.

I need to think on this a bit.


In the meantime, I want to pose a hypothetical.
Supposing we lynch one of the three on LMP's shortlist (Kats, Mari, rewq) and they flip scum. How would this affect your opinion of the remaining two players' alignments? Feel free to get into specifics (which player dies, which scumgroup are they part of) if you feel I'm generalizing too much.

[Glork]

I'll look into Katsuki and Maryita next. Initial notes on Kats: She was on every major bandwagon on D1 (ME(town), Wraith, Gandalf(town)), yet was reluctant to switch over to WeirdRa who she also had on her scum list, when it became obvious that WeirdRa would be the lynch of D1 (last attempt to stall the WeirdRa wagon so they can come up with a proper fakeclaim?)

This paragraph is fucking win.

[Glork]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Katsuki

[Glork]

Someone find for me who it was that said Isengard specifically (yea I know it made senseish BUT I just need it for the secret note)

It was Mariyta. The "Search this thread" function at the top-left of the page is your friend.

[Glork]

That's not coaching. It's simple deflection. That said it's probably vote-worthy. Posting from phone but I'll have a closer look when I get home this evening.

[Glork]

Probably because it's my birthday.


I suppose a claim would be helpful.

[Glork]

Oh, reading comprehension for the loss.

[Glork]

EBWOP: I'd still like a rolename or something.

[Glork]

I'm inclined to believe the role ability, uncertain of alignment. I'd like some time to go back and read, but I will agree with Mari's attitude that, given the nature of the game so far, she's as good as dead already.

[Glork]

Thanks Fate. But IDK, I'm leaning towards letting Mariyta live for now. "No one targeted Glork" is a reasonable post to make if she targeted me and got "no actions" or "nothing" or whatever result.

It's possible she was hoping to catch a Doctor protecting me, but meh... I think that DGB's "GLORK MUST BE PROTECTED TONIGHT" was enough to scare off the scums for a single night. That said, I pretty much expect to be killed tonight, so whatevs.

[Glork]

BTW, I definitely don't want a hammer before SlySly posts while Mari is lying. I don't expect SlySly to CC her result, else he would have just posted "NUH UH, I TARGETED GLORK," but I think we can get something out of Sly's next post.


So SlySly, if you're not scum, you'd better deliver the utmost in excellence.

[Glork]

Mari, if you had gotten a non-zero result, what would the nature of said result be?
1) Glork was targeted
2) X number of people targeted Glork
3) Such-and-such action(s) were used on Glork

?

INQUIRING MINDS NEED TO KNOW.

[Glork]

I'm still betting REAL HARD on the chances of no one touching you being minimal.

That aside, I still would love to know how Liv Tyler ties into this.

You'd be a little surprised, TBH. I'm pretty sure nobody in Square Enix III targeted me until at least Night 3.

[Glork]

Both Mari and SlySly are watchers.

At least one of them is scum.


I will be reading up on both of them over the next 48 hours or so and figuring out which one we kill (first).

Stand by for additional Glorkian awesomeness.

[Glork]

Posting from phone: SlySly has little incentive to lie about his result. Seems likely to me that bv got blocked or redirected, not SlySly lying here. That said I still need to read both SlySly and Mari in iso to see which one (or both) would be most likely scum.

[Glork]

At the moment I believe bv's claim of targeting Katy. So I'm going to go with Lynch All Liars.

Vote: SlySly

So, just so we're clear:

Mari claimed watcher when she meant voyeur with no one targetting Glork.
Sly counterclaimed watcher when he actually MEANT watcher with no one targetting Kat.
BV claimed an action that targetted Kat.

The only scenario in which this is three towns is if Sly was blocked and instead of getting no result got a fake result OR was driven.

Ehhh

Unvote, Vote: Zwet

When someone is role blocked though, it usually says "your action could not be completed" or something to that extent though doesn't it?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: SlySly I realize that SlySly had little reason to lie, but I am thinking that bv has even less.

Jeeezus, you're bad at this. Or you're dirty scumbaggoes.

Sly was either blocked, or his result is genuinely wrong for some other reason. BV's claim does not make Sly scum. I will repeat:

Sly has zero reason to lie about his ability or result

, regardless of his alignment.

If he's town, he's not going to lie, unless he's making a SUPERTERRIBAD-WORTHYOFPOLICYKILLING gambit.
If he's scum, he has ZERO reason to put his neck on the line for ONE ROLE by outing himself.


Fucking seriously, guys. Think for like two seconds. If you're going to vote to lynch Sly, do it on his gameplay, not on BV's claim of targeting Katy.

[Glork]

Your right. However, it is apparent though that either BV or SlySly is lying. I see no way for them both to be on the same faction though, as they are directly contradicting each other. I see no reason for us not to lynch one of them today.

UNVOTE: SlySly
VOTE: bv310

I did an ISO of each, and I noticed that bv is seriously inactive. If we are going to take out a useless player, which is most peoples reasoning for lynching Zwet, we might as well kill two birds with one stone and kill bv.

No.

What each person claimed is not mutually exclusive.

If SlySly was blocked, I could see him getting some form of "no result" answer.
If SlySly was redirected, he could have wound up targeting someone else, which would have given him a "no actions"/"no result" type of answer.
If it's possible that BV was redirected, he could have gotten a "result" (he says he knows his action went through, so I'm ruling out BV getting blocked), which would leave him to believe he targeted Katy when he did not do so.


inHim: I'm not stepping in to defend SlySly because of who SlySly is. What I specifically said was "if you're going to lynch him, do it based on his gameplay, not on BV's claimed result." I still have not had a chance to read through either SlySly or Mariyta, but I am uber-convinced that both of them are Watchers, and that at least one of those two is scum. They are absolutely the players we should be looking at lynching today, as even if we mislynch I'd

GLADLY

trade one for the other. We have at least one capable vigilante, so we should be focusing on Mari and SlySly exclusively. That said, we need to look at their GAMPLEAY, not any of this claim/counter/countercounter nonsense. I'm enforcing sound logical play, nothing more, nothing less.

[Glork]

EBWOP: That said, I actually do think Mari is more likely to be scum than SlySly.

The only reason SlySly would counterclaim as a Scum Watcher is if he is already completely convinced that Mari is also scum. If he thinks there's even a chance that Mari is a protown Watcher, SlySlyScum keeps his trap shut. (Again, this assumes that SlySly isn't the Worst Player Ever, making a gambit worthy of policy-killing him in future games.)

So yeah, inHim. I'll give you that if SlySly is scum, I deserve a lot of attention. But here's my question to you: Do

YOU

see SlySlyScum counterclaiming to get Mari lynched? If so, do you think that Mari is also a scum watcher, or is SlySly throwing his own life away to get rid of one information role?

[Glork]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mariyta

[Glork]

UNVOTE:
I just re-read the last couple of pages, and I could potentially buy into both Mari/SlySly being town with parallel roles. inHim's point about them being of different factions with parallel roles is interesting. If that's the case, I would expect them both to be scum.


Either way, I really need to ISO them and not jump to conclusions. I promise a post by the end of Sunday, as I will finally have a day off then.

[Glork]

I'd like your input on that mess Glork in case I'm missing something but I'm leaning real hard on misclaimed role / counter claim / madness the more I think about it.

I'm confused. What do you mean by "misclaimed role"? Do you think Mari/SlySly are both legit? 'Cause that's what I'm starting to see.

[Glork]

Right.

[Glork]

VOTE: zwet

Fine by me.

[Glork]

Seriously, a Governor?

Somebody's freaking dumb as balls.

VOTE: VasudeVa while I figure out exactly wtf I want to do today.

[Glork]

Major FoS: Spyre

Why waste a lynch when you know he's going to get modkilled at end of day anyway? If he comes in and makes one post before the day ends, fine. But you're wasting a lynch here and I bet you damn well know it.

[Glork]

Ah, I missed that.

Nevermind, then.

[Glork]

Fine.

Unvote, vote: a2r

He's playing a very good "fly under the radar" game and also buddying up to Glork, who is one of the more town-seeming players.

I don't need to buddy up to Glrok. He knows me.

TBH, I've not seen enough to convince me that you're superduper protown yet. You should probably step it up.

[Glork]

Vote:a2rudeboy

@Zwet: Do you know why you are lynch immune today? Did you receive anything from the mod explaining your situation?

(Regardless though, I want zwet strangled or shot with an arrow. Preferably strangled, much much more painful and satisfying for me.)

--

Well, all I can say to that is that's not how I roll, but you can either believe that or not. In any case, it is impossible for what you have pointed out to be a scum block vote, since both WeirdRa and Katsuki were on there and they were on different scum teams.

2 votes count as bloc votes though besides, there was a time when there like 6 votes on gandalf. This point is a bit silly.

If I had known what WeirdRa was going to claim I would have voted for him before the claim, knowing that it wouldn't actually save him. It was pretty obviously not even intended to work, but to draw a counterclaim. If I were his buddy, I would have tried to hop on that wagon before the claim, or to hammer like rewq did.

But I didn't know what he was going to claim and was willing to give him a chance to do so. It was L-1, there was still about two days to the deadline, and I believe it was SpyreX was trying to get people to hammer before Weird made his claim. That doesn't sit well with me, especially as I did read WeirdRa again and nothing jumped out at me as horribly scummy, and the only person who seemed to have made a clear case for him was Mariyta. I wanted to at least give Weird the night to claim. The only reason the push to lynch him without claim doesn't seem scummy is because he was scum.

Hmm? Noo, he fucked up his claim by claiming Gimli - cop. Pregame, you guys discussed your mod-given fakeclaims and you knew he had Gimli. (Also you woulnd't have voted him since he was at L-1 and all with a pretty awesome fakeclaim.) If Gimli claimed something that made sense with his fakeclaim(which I think you were banking on when you were waiting on people to claim), I think there might have been a reasonable chance of the wagon dissolving and then subsequently moving onto Gandalf who was still in heavy suspicion at that point.

I find it weird that you are pointing fingers toward SlySly in your defense, seeing as you jumped with him in the gandalf wagon in this page.

Miss LOTR fangirl, Answer these as honestly as you can for me please:
What do you think about Gimli? Did you think he was an important character?

Earlier I laid out a very similar argument against SlySly, who seemed to me to be much more active in trying to drive votes away from Weird. I was reluctant to vote for him myself before hearing his claim, but was not actively trying to move votes away. I also pointed out rewq's behavior at the end of the day. Why do you think I look MOST like a WeirdRa buddy? Why more so than either of those two?

Nah, it doesn't fit with your personality(careful, analytical meta player) to actively drive votes away from Gandalf. It, however, fits with your personality to make soft-defenses, and subtly imply that you don't think he's scum(while prepping up one of them awkward bus votes).

Defense doesn't hold, deflection noted.

ITT, VV is scum.

[Glork]

ITT, VV is a moron who thinks two bandwagons with the same people on it indicate those people are scumbuddies.

Move along, Glork.

No, Fate.

"Let me bandwagon the inactive player with no commentary whatsoever while making a focused case against someone else entirely" = Scum.

[Glork]

Not gonna lie, everyone who unvoted A2RB is a giant pussy. That said, VV still needs dead.

Fate: Re me replacing out: I still have some fundamental issues with BaM rules and if I had fully understood them beforehand I would never have joined. That said, I told the mod I'd stay in the game as long as nobody got modkilled for inactivity. My views on modkilling inscribed have been made abundantly clear on that so I'm not going to go into it here but yeah, if it happens I would seriously consider replacing out of the game.

[Glork]

Not gonna lie, everyone who unvoted A2RB is a giant pussy.

And why is that? We have 13 hours before deadline. Do you really think lynching a pro-town player will be helpful? You're smart enough to know that VV isn't going to get a wagon large enough in that time.

P-edit: Same question to SpyreX. Would lynching an almost certainly pro-town player who had few interactions be helpful? If so, please explain.

Considering how common a fakeclaim "Hider" is for scum, I'm VERY surprised that so many people are willing to take it at face value.

To be completely and utterly frank, the only thing that makes me want to lynch A2RB is the claim. He has requested replacement, and I don't really try to meta V/LA-activity issues in terms of town/scum, because I don't think it's very accurate. I understand why people think he's been deliberately avoiding the thread, but I simply disagree with that assessment.

So yeah, for the people who were like "WELP HERP DERP, LET'S LYNCH THE LURKERSCUM. OH WAIT, HE'S PIPPIN, UNVOTE, LET'S NOT LYNCH ON D2" I'm not getting good feelings at all.

[Glork]

The only good thing about a Katylynch today would be that maybe people will finally listen to me when I keep telling them VV is scum.

[Glork]

Wait waaaat? I missed that. Link plox?

[Glork]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: A2RB

[Glork]

Mari: What specifically about A2RB's claim leads you to believe that it is legit?

[Glork]

Ya seriously, No-Lynching with more than like 8 people alive is going to be retarded 99% of the time. gaposidhfp asoietjpaso idapslkhdpljpsaodi gjpaweog.

Dekes: I still don't like his early (first few pages) interaction with WeirdRa. I can't read that without thinking it looks like Token Early-Game Scumbuddy Distancing. It bothers me a ton.

[Glork]

Addendum: I also don't think it makes sense for scum-A2R to claim no action.

Disagree. With the existence of two scumgroups, if A2RB were a lying scumbag and said his target was someone from {Other Faction}, he'd be insta-busted. Claiming not to have acted is the only appropriate claim for him here.

[Glork]

EBWOP: Also, claiming to have not acted last night sets him up for "hiding" tonight, which would deter investigative roles from targeting him tonight, as they shouldn't get results from a hidden player. No clue what you're smoking here, VV, but you couldn't be more wrong.

[Glork]

I've seen Hiders which can't be targeted by any role (except Roleblockers, which would resolve before they do.... and redirectors/janitors, theoretically, for the same reason). I suppose the wiki indicates that the standard Hider role only becomes NK-immune so yeah, drop that point.

I still think it'd make less sense to have claimed a target. (On a semi-related note, I also think it's 3-3 remaining, not 2-2. Two 3-person scumgroups seems really low for a 25 player game, even if we do wind up having an SK as well.)

[Glork]

EBWOP: Well, if we do have an SK, maybe it is 3-3-1-18. A 3-person scumgroup in a 25 player game still feels really low, but Weird's role was pretty powerful (Bulletproof + Rolename-Cop), so we'll see.

[Glork]

FIRST AND FOREMOST.
Fuck you to everyone who tried to slide off of A2RB. I didn't even like the lynch until he claimed, and then everyone started bailing like spineless cowards. Major minus points to the staunchest of his defenders.


In other news, one of Mari/SlySly/Edge is scum. We do

NOT

have three protown investigative roles in this game. Given the scum flips so far, that'd be way to powerful. It's more likely that we have two protown investigative roles, and two scum investigative roles (deadman Weird, and someone from the other group to balance). And I'm leaning towards Edge, believe it or not. I could easily see Edge/Vasude/Weird as a scumgroup.

Dekes beat me to it, but I don't like Edge's "because I didn't get RB'd" thing either. With a dead Jailkeeper, dead JOAT, and dead Scum RB, what makes you think there's another RB out there, Edge?

In COMPLETELY RELATED news,

Oh cool, 1 death.

lolscum.


More later tonight, when I get off werrrrrk. In the next 24 hours, I expect legit content from the following players:
CES, inHim, Locke, Zwet (tell us who you think the remaining scums are, and why), Nero.

[Glork]

No wait that don't make sense. Edge would have to be in the opposite scumgroup from Weird.

SCRAP THAT IDEA.


I'll figure out which one of them is scum lator.

[Glork]

PS, our Daykiller is either scum or a fucking tard if he doesn't kill Zwet today. That's why I'm not even going to bother.

[Glork]

EBWOANOTHERPOST: I guess it could make sense if Edge doesn't have any kind of investigative role whatsoever.

Fate, ease my mind. Who did you target last night, and what result did you get? Also, mise well give us your rolename at this point.

[Glork]

Hang on, this is wierd. We haven't killed Saruman yet, but there was only one kill?

That is correct.

[Glork]

GG.

I wish I had taken a bit more authority with the hydra, but meh. I kinda got a kick out of Glork saying in the QT "Bussing D1 never works!" and then bussing us beyond all eternity. It works fine if you do it right, Glork. (I do it all the time).

I didn't say it doesn't work, I said it's bad play. And in a game with two scumgroups, it is a bad play. Unfortunately, it's one that I had to make, because I put pressure on you to distance, and you guys

completely

folded. Didn't do a damned thing to make any effort to save yourselves.

I've bused D1 and won doing so, but I don't like doing it.



I really should have seen myself getting daykilled by Gollum. I had proven myself distrubingly accurate up to that point, as usual, and from Gollum's perspective I had pegged members of BOTH scumgroups. I don't think I would have been "easily lynchable" as someone suggested. Excellent players being scum in multi-group games is pretty much bullshit, because they're going to get nightkilled. But I guess that's the luck of the draw.

Much credit to Dekes, I really enjoyed being his scumbuddy. He's thorough and insightful, and I'd love to play with him in the future. He did extremely well replacing in, and carried the torch well after I went down to crosskill.

[Glork]

EBWOP: All that said, GG. Town definitely deserved the win. Most of them were very accurate, so mad props all around. This was one of the better-played (and thus more enjoyable) games I've experienced lately. There was some butting of heads, which seemed inevitable, but most of the players weren't flailing about uselessly, which is what I've seen in most of my recent games.


Definitely enjoyed this one, so bajillions of thanks to the mods and those who reviewed the setup.