War in Heaven II - Spirit of Vengeance (Over!)

[The Fonz]

[quote="Nuwen"
Zwet is one of the more important metas to know in this game anyway; his play is definitely the most erratic.[/quote]

He's the one significant name here i know nothing about.

But seriously... MORE erratic than ABR and DGB?

Actually, that's a good point... Albert, would you say your meta has changed at all since we last played?

[The Fonz]

I suggest to avoid the general lowering of health, we use a system where someone needs to gain the pledged support of at least one other player (committing to hurting them if you do) before doing any hurting. Something like this:

Call intent to hurt *Name*

Then someone else needs to post

I'm with you, *Name!*

I would also propose not healing anyone outside of the start-of-day mass heals, UNLESS they are hurt in contravention of the above.


On claims: The only players who will be endangered by that low level of damage are vanillas- who claiming won't save anyway. So there's no point there.

Perhaps we should make another rule of sorts, Once you harm someone, for the time being, you do not harm them again. I'm trying to think of a way of wording it, but this system is very unique.

This is unbelievably stupid.

-.- Got it. You realize I HATE being called stupid right?

Stop it now. Explain yourself. Why are my ideas stupid but yours are perfect? How do we even KNOW there is a rage like mechanic in this game like the last one? Hell I can think of 3 or 4 different mechanics which are similar but work on different principals other than time (such as, 1 rage every time someone is killed, or 1 rage every time one of them is harmed, etc etc)

It's the argument, not you, which is called stupid.

But the idea is this: you shouldn't be hurting anyone unless you want them dead. If you want them dead, then placing artificial restrictions will only harm that cause, and lead to more dragged-out days. If I read it right, you're trying to spread out the hurting. This only makes lurking more detrimental to the town.

Though kinetic's point about not assuming that the setup is exactly the same is warranted.

Everyone:

Whats wrong with a fake voting system?

I can keep up with the fake votecounts.
We treat this game as a normal game and we avoid hurting someone that could be town.

Vote : Kinetic.

Pussy. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

i did read the thread thanks

i am in favor of everyone who's pussyfooting around with fake votes just hurting him dead instead.

I endorse the above product or service.

I need a damage count to know who I can heal.

Any roads, I agree that Kinetic's opinion are rather anti-townie. In a normal mafia game with 9 players, it's already hard to get a general concensus, so why should be any different here? If a group of people think someone is definitively scum, why shouldn't they be able to lynch him/her?

Also, populartajo, why are you voting for Kinetic?

Another thing: though I don't like much the fake vote system, I'll go with it for now in a way to show my opinion towards Kinetic:

Fake vote: Kinetic

I smell middle-of-the road scum.

Heal: Seraphim.

Heal me back!

Also,

Random anything at this point has a 75% chance of hitting town.

How can you be so sure? That's a pretty solid number, you know. The only way you would know that is that you know how much scum there are, hence, you must be a scum as well.

GAHHHHH! REEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAACH!

Call intent to hurt Shinnen no me

OTOH, Kinetic's willingness to put himself front and centre looks town, and he seems sincere, even if wrong.

Oh, and with no actual votes, FOSes are EVEN more pointless than usual.

Here is a list already in page 6.

Prob Town

ABR
Rolf
Cybele
q21
Seraph

Neutral

DGB
Tenchi
Xyl
The rest.

Prob scum

Hoopla
Viqles
Shinnen
Kinetic

LOATP are antitown.

Also, can anyone tell me how strong the rage point attacks have been previously?

What the heck? Why on earth did you hurt Juls? Did you miss the agreement that rage points can be less effective if everyone is healthier?

Heal: Juls

Vote: Xyl

He saw it; he disagreed.

RIGHT. BIG CAPS LOCK BIT BECAUSE THIS IS IMPORTANT. THE LAST FEW PAGES JUST REMIND ME OF MAD I WHEN THE TOWN ALL GOT MAD AND TURNED ON EACH OTHER BECAUSE THEY DISAGREED OVER GAME THEORY, WHILST THE SCUM LURKED THROUGH.

My preference is for a Shinnen kill as she's just done enough to look like contributing without drawing attention, and her arguments are bollocks. If anyone will join me ('I'm with you, Fonzie') I'll hurt her. Failing that, I'll take out any other noncontributor.

[The Fonz]

I suggest to avoid the general lowering of health, we use a system where someone needs to gain the pledged support of at least one other player (committing to hurting them if you do) before doing any hurting. Something like this:

Call intent to hurt *Name*

Then someone else needs to post

I'm with you, *Name!*

I don't think this is any more ideal - I see no reason why a large scum team wouldn't pair off and cycle through proposals/agreements until they've placed a player in kill range. This is a vapid effort to organize hurt actions; it doesn't actually benefit the town. In fact, it gives scum

more

room to throw out hurt actions because they'll be inherently buddied with another player. "Well, confirmed town x agreed with my hurt..."

This is the thing though- we're not trying to stop people killing! If scum want to pair up together, and kill off innocents, that's pretty blatant. The point of that proposal is to stop people wasting their hurting on people that no-one else suspects, and ensure a degree of consolidation- if you want to hurt someone, you have to convince at least one other player to support you.

The biggest drag on the game will be healing- if one side are attacking a player, but his supporters are healing him, then nothing happens, whilst the rage points build up.

[The Fonz]

Fonz, rolf and Xyl

WHATS SO FUCKING WRONG WITH TREATING THIS GAME AS NORMAL GAME WITH VOTING INSTEAD OF HURTING?

We dont random hurt anyone that could be town and we dont start healing him when its too late and you realize, omg he could be town.

FUCK YOU TAJO.

No-one is proposing random hurting. AT ALL. EVER. This is a gigantic strawman. I at least, am proposing to harm people you would normally wagon, once you have established there is some support for the wagon.

You want to know what the stupidly obvious problem with your plan is? Deadlines. Or the lack thereof. Normally, if people aren't around to hammer, then the deadline cuts off. So either you've got a reduced lynch, or at the very least a set time people have to vote by to get it.

Now, check out your plan. The problem is that hanging around one more day is only one more day. Which is an incentive against wagon consolidation. A deadlocked town could pretty much hang around forever, with everyone hoping the other side'll shift, and not them, and no firm deadline to force anyone's hand. The frog/saucepan problem. Your plan is a recipe for paralysis.

If we're only hurting when there is a consensus, why would we need a 'healing phase' at all?

Can we at least agree that this 'I heal you, you lynch me' is antitown and scum-favouring?

Also, for the last time, as with a normal game, IF SCUM WANT TO QUICKLYNCH/HURT, THEN IT'S GOING TO BE FUCKING OBVIOUS! The problem is if everyone is whittled down to the point when scum can deploy a load of rage at once, and lots of people are in range. This can be mollified by a) reducing the amount of rage available by acting quickly and b) only hurting people who are the suspects of multiple people, as above.

RANDOM HURTING IS NOT THE WAY TO GO.
HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THIS?[/size]

STRAWMAN
STRAWMAN
STRAWMAN
STRAWMAN

A plan was proposed to heal. Most people were exchanging heals. .

Why did you not consider the obvious point that the plan was antitown?

Just so it's on record - my picks for scum at this point are Xyl, DGB, and albert.

That probably seems a bit OMGUS, but the fact that they're focussing on me instead of someone who's really scummy is really scummy.

Well, apart from the fact that OMGUS doesn't exist. But it does seem a poorly reasoned counter-suspicion- the fact that those players are the only ones you listed as suspects indicates that you haven't seen anyone 'really scummy' for them to attack. And you're hardly a fit person to judge whether you yourself are scummy.

AS PER THE FONZ STIPULATION, EVERYONE SHOULD VOICE THEIR INTENT TO KILL ONE OF THESE THREE PLAYERS:

Shinnen_no_Me / Xylthixlm / vIQleS

Since they were the only ones to be nominated, its time to destroy one of these three players.

That wasn't exactly how i envisioned it working, but meh. Anyone else could still call a suspect- but they probably should have done it by now.

AS PER THE FONZ STIPULATION, EVERYONE SHOULD VOICE THEIR INTENT TO KILL ONE OF THESE THREE PLAYERS:

Shinnen_no_Me / Xylthixlm / vIQleS

Since they were the only ones to be nominated, its time to destroy one of these three players.

Also, I don't particularly think that any of these deserve to die, why are you limiting the towns targets?

Why are you opposed to focus? As basically everyone has said, we can't just go around hurting if there's no support.

Zwet behaves similarly here.

Vote/pledge/I choose you, pikachu: vIQleS

ABR, Nuwen is backing you up. Feel free to hurt Viq.

You're avoiding these questions. If you're going to showcase your previous games to illustrate how your play can help the town - you need to show the times where you've fucked the town over with bad play.

To be fair, we don't have all fucking week.

@Xyl

Juls and WaltWishbone are lurking, correct?

I also think it's important to sort out the lurkers from the scummy lurkers. Generally, scum lurkers will either say less or pretend that they're saying something when they're not.

There are a couple of specific questions I've asked of Juls here which should be a good starting point if she actually wants to contribute.

Also, lots of people are expressing suspicion of Viqles, so get hurting!

Checked out Wishbone. He's Shinnen's nemesis.

Over-the-top agreeable and submissive.

Let me check that. If true, those are scumtells.

***cue music***

Darkness immediately falls as the Angel of Rampage rises into the black sky. The elevated figure materializes his giant Scythe of Blood into his right fist. He holds it high like a trophy of God.

'Neca eos omnes, deus suos agnoscet!'

And the angel dives. As the forceful winds of heaven scurry uncontrollably in all directions, the Scythe of Blood comes crashing down on Shinnen.

Hurt Shinnen

Sweet.

Hurt: Shinnen no me

The winged one with the leather jacket impales Shinnen on the end of his offensively large quiff.

It should be noted that DGB, ABR, and rofl are all attacking different players despite the numerous calls for town consensus.

ABR knew full well i'd back him, since i was waiting for support to hurt Shinnen. So I don't think he is in the same category as the other two. Did anyone else pledge to harm Walt? I know he was in a few people's suspect lists.

Whoa! Three separate hurts is bad... that being said I don't have good reads on any of the players, not enough to heal any of them.

WE DON'T WANT TO HEAL, HOW HARD IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND!

WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?
In all scenarios PEOPLE HURTING WHOEVER THINK THEY ARE SCUM are blatantly antitown since they are giving scum (if they are not) the free pass of being aggressive and random hurting that WE KNOW its detrimental to town in the long game
THIS WOULD NOT HAPPEN IF WE USED THE VOTING SYSYEM

Fucking hell, that first pig isn't going to have a house by the time we've actually got round to killing someone.

ATTENTION ALL: THE HOOPLA/TAJO SYSTEM IS AN EXCUSE FOR LURKERS TO PREVENT THE TOWN FROM KILLING ANYONE, WHILST THE SCUM BUILD UP THEIR RAGE.

I'll heal, we need to stop hurting until we select a kill.

Heal: Kinetic

MASSIVELY ANTITOWN SOMEONE CALL A HURT ON HIM PLEASE.

Which is exactly my point.
I dont want this posterior scenario:
Oh, yeah, Shinnen is scummier than Walt. Lets start hurting her. Walt is already hurt. He could be scum but could be also town.
Rinse and repeat.
Final result : majority of people hurt. Scum smiling with their rage points.
BEFORE WE HURT, WE HAVE TO BE SURE OR GET A GENERAL CONSENSUS.
Voting Intent to hurt is the way to go. Vote someone else you think is scum. Show why he is scum. There are probs that townies get what you are saying and vote with you.

NO! We only have to have sufficient consensus for a decent-sized wagon, not a lynch. WHICH MEANS THAT ONLY THE TOP HANDFUL OF SUSPECTS AT A GIVEN TIME WILL BE HURT. We've stated that if someone hurts in a lone wolf manner, it will a) be counted as scummy and b) that player will be healed after the next kill. We shouldn't heal up people who have a large portion of the town suspecting them. In fact, I would go so far as to say the converse of your plan- we only heal with consensus. (For example, if someone was a longtime suspect, but the alignments of the dead meant no-one suspected them anymore).

Spreading the damage around like Xyl is doing only benefits scum because they can use their rage points in the background to knock out 2-3 players at once. Please notice who is leading the charge to do these spread out hurts.

I want Xyl dead. Who is with me?

Uh, Xyl just pledged to hurt someone already injured.

Thank you for the clarification. At his point I am going to return the favor and...

Heal: vIQleS

This is insanely antitown.

I propose from now on we masshurt anyone who heals without town consensus.

Consider it a policy lynch. THe Walt/ViQ counterhealing is just delaying the death time for TWO of the town's top suspects.

Exactly. Also, instead of providing a GOOD explanation for his actions, Xyl is giving us numbers that ALL OF US ALREADY KNOW.

Zwet, his argument is good.

That you can't read doesn't make it less so.

@Kinetic, care to explain why you think I'm scum? Or it's just pure unbased gut?

The problem with the players that are lurking is that this is a fast paced game, and that most of it has been during a weekend, when some people tend to not be online. So, I wouldn't call them lurkers yet. They need to post more, but I don't think they fall into the lurker category just now. Maybe in a couple of days, but not now.

I also don't like Xyl's eagerness to hurt so fast. Chances are that you're only going to spread the damage among town, making things easier for scum. A deadline is fine, but just hurting like that without some control is just going to help scum.

I surround a field. Lots of species of wildlife live in me, including dormice and various birds.

What is a hedge, Alex?

Walt is at least neutral. I dont see the case on him nor the necessity to hurt him to death like Xyl is proposing.
I would like more from viqles and Shinnen. Tenchi is a bad feeling. DGB is scum, btw.

LURKAPOLOGIST!

Heal Seraphim

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

At this stage, Tajo is starting to look SO antitown he may need to be killed regardless of aligment.

ATTENTION EVERYONE: WE NEED THE FIRST DEATH SOON. NOBODY HURT ANYONE WHO HASN'T BEEN HURT YET. NOBODY HEAL AT ALL. IF ANYONE BREAKS EITHER OF THESE, WE MASSHURT. DEAL?

[The Fonz]

Albert B. Rampage, Nuwen, populartajo, q21, roflcopter, vIQleS, WeyounsLastClone, and Xylthixlm

THe above are guilty of partaking in the scum-favouring healing up plan. Putting this here to remind myself in future.

[The Fonz]

Did you not? You got healed. I assumed everyone who was healed reciprocated.

[The Fonz]

OK so.

Right. We have three players below normal. I want everyone to hurt one of them. You know, if it weren't for that stupid-ass heal-up plan, we'd be well on our way to a death here.

And does anyone else look at that ViQ/Walt mutual heal and think 'Surely they can't be that obvious, can they?'

[The Fonz]

I'd rather you limited yourself to existing wagons, q21. At least, unless someone decides to back you in the next 12 hours.

[The Fonz]

At the moment, I still want to heal Xyl tomorrow so that scum do not kill him. After that, I will continue to hurt zwet until he is dead and then start on Hoopla or Juls. Juls will immediately elevate if zwet flips scum as the town of them have been buddying against Xyl the entire game.

What's to stop someone else saying

'I still want to heal Zwet tomorrow so that scum do not kill him. After that, I will continue to hurt Xyl until he is dead then start on [name]?'

If people continue healing the people they don't suspect because other people do and want to hurt them, we'll just get the deadlock situation i described earlier, with rage points racking up.

[The Fonz]

I have no idea why people think Xyl is scum. I've been reading nothing but town intent from him especially since he's going out of his way to make heal/hurt counts.

Making votecounts are an easy way for scum to gain townie cred without actually furthering the lynching of scum.

If he was scum, he'd be a lot more aggressive and attempt to bullshit the town with useless information.

He is being aggressive. I'm not sure what you mean by 'bullshit the town with useless information?' Xyl's not going to act like noobscum whether he's scum or not, you know.

NOTE: Xyl is actually my least favourite of the three currently hurt players to die. I don't like a Zwet wagon either, feels too defaulty.

Hoopla don't hurt me back unless you get support from at least 4 players to do so. Anything else would be extremely anti-town.

You know I take 'back' to mean 'promise to hurt if you do?' Saying 'I'm in favour of it happening, but not going to do it myself' is not backing. Counting it as such would lead to the lots of little hurts which Tajo was worried about.

Intent to heal: Xyl

There is no case on him and the people attacking him have no basis and are some of the scummier players in the game. If Zwet flips scum, Juls is next.

NO HEALING!

[The Fonz]

You've presented your opinion on why town lost many times, you miserable self-centred piece of shit. That doesn't change the fact that you're wrong, and your plan is incredibly scum-benefitting because it will slow the game down and allow the scum to rack up more rage points.

I REPEAT FOR THE HARD OF THINKING: TAJO'S PLAN = HANDING THE GAME TO SCUM.

I am SO fucking angry right now.

[The Fonz]

ALSO, FOR THE RECORD, MY PLAN IS NOT SYNONIMUS OF LAGGING THE GAME. I DONT KNOW WHO FUCKTARD THINKS THIS. I AGREE WITH DEADLINES.

Right. What happens when deadline hits? Are people who are violently opposed to a particular lynch supposed to join the masshurt? And who has the power to set the deadline?

THE CLEAR IMPLICATION OF YOUR PLAN IS TO LAG THE GAME, AND ONLY A COMPLETE FUCKWIT WOULD NOT SEE THIS. I've explained why earlier.

WHAT I DONT AGREE IS THAT EVERYONE CAN HURT WHOEVER THEY THINK IS SCUM. HURT FEST ONLY BENEFITS SCUM.

FOR LIKE THE FIFTEENTH TIME YOU ILLITERATE DOUCHEBAG, NO-ONE IS PROPOSING THAT.

We are proposing that people hurt when they have the support to make a significant wagon. Waiting for a consensus WILL INEVITABLY CAUSE THE DAY TO DRAG and THIS WILL BENEFIT SCUM.

THE HEALING AT THE BEGINNING WAS NOT A STRATEGY OF STALLING THE GAME. ITS A STRATEGY OF TOPPING THE HPS OF THE MAJORITY OF THE PLAYERS WHICH WE KNOW ARE TOWN.

THE FUCKING OBVIOUS EFFECT OF TOPPING UP EVERYONE IS SIMPLY THAT KILLING *ANYONE* TAKES LONGER. THIS BENEFITS TOWN AND SCUM EQUALLY. IT TAKES LONGER TO KILL TOWN, IT TAKES LONGER TO KILL SCUM. BUT ALL THE WHILE, RAGE POINTS ARE RACKING UP YOU FUCKING PATHETIC EXCUSE FOR A HUMAN BEING.


TAJO IS RETARDED. NO IFS, NO BUTS. HE MAY BE SCUM AS WELL, BUT HE'S DEFINITELY RETARDED.

[The Fonz]

Meh. He started it.

[The Fonz]

Btw, having reread that game, the voting system for me was a large part of why town lost.

Town lost at least in part because they killed two townies, Coron and Kab, for disagreeing with the system- also, half the town were several points toward death by the end of the first aeon. AND- and this is a not insignificant factor- you took too long. First aeon lasted two weeks. You wasted a lot of time healing people, but without taking them out of range of the rage point kills. It's incredibly dishonest to ignore this factor. Oh, and the town happened to mistarget repeatedly, which is nothing to do with the setup. Musher vs Pojedinac in the sixth aeon was crucial- and town got it wrong.

No-one is suggesting anything close to the kind of anarchy that happened day one there- the plan being forwarded by me, Albert, Xyl, etc, would lead to around 3-4 players being seriously hurt,

whilst no-one else gets damaged at all.

Note that pojedinac as scum was pushing for the mass heal. It's frankly disengenuous to claim that a plan that involves consolidating a handful of wagons is the same as a free-for-all, but i've been saying this for page after page and tajo still isn't listening, so he won't start now.

[The Fonz]

i'm taking the fact that the only person who has even bothered to comment on what i said about seraphim was xyl, and he's only defending him as town based on some whack meta, as evidence that i am right on the money

Or that people don't think there's enough on him, and would rather kill someone already injured so we don't end up with half the town hurt?

Hurt: Rofl

for creating groups of "sure-protown-buddies", very scummy.

Shinnen just hurt a previously uninjured player. KILL HER!

BTW, it's clear that tajo is leader of healer movement and the Fonz is leader of the aggressive movement...actually, I take that back, but he's definitely on the far end of that spectrum. At this point, I doubt either of them are scum.

According to your earlier definitions, I'm a moderate.

Albert B. Rampage, Nuwen, populartajo, q21, roflcopter, vIQleS, WeyounsLastClone, and Xylthixlm

THe above are guilty of partaking in the scum-favouring healing up plan. Putting this here to remind myself in future.

dude. i never healed anyone and i actively campaigned against this whole stupid healing thing in the first place. dgb healed me, but it was non consensual.

Fair point.

The answer is not "don't heal". The answer is "Every intent to heal cancels out an intent to hurt. Don't hurt someone unless you have more than enough intent to hurts to cancel out all the intent to heals. Don't heal someone unless you have more than enough intent to heals to cancel out all the intent to hurts."

The answer should be 'don't heal.' (Once we have dead scum, we might consider healing damage caused by said scum. And we need to heal Rofl after Shinnen is dead, as per the guidelines on 'lone wolf' attacks I set out earlier. But certainly not yet). Counterwagon.

fonz already broke down why tajo's plan makes him scum,

and i already broke down why you two are scum together, and with hoopla no less. since hoopla will be dying this aeon, i'll get back to you next aeon.

Swing and a miss. I've set out why his plan is hugely detrimental to town- but sticking his neck so far out for it is a protown tell. I'm certainly not ruling it out, but I think he's wrong rather than scum, and that the actual scum will be found in the large group of players much lurkier than Tajo.

I'm going to laugh when town loses because the aggressive idiots are pushing the "hurt everyone, what is the worst that can happen" agenda...

If rage works how they think it does, I'm just waiting for the multiple scum kills incoming. -,-

Again, who is actually pushing that? If Rage works as

I

think it does- on a time basis- then the scumkills are a worse threat the more we stall.

Does anyone know, PRECISELY, how rage worked last time?

In theory it is a great idea, and it is what most people did to begin the game. However we are just not getting anywhere near a consensus or agreeing on proceeding with a fakevote. The town is mostly splintered; I am going to make the best use of my hurt/heal based on whats been posted thus far.

NO NO NO! It is a bad idea IN THEORY!

Too many suspects are completely dismissing the objections to them as 'you have no case' which isn't getting us anywhere. For starters Walt, that little 'scratch my back, i scratch yours' thing is a good reason to think you are scum.

[The Fonz]

Time for the first semi-regular LURK UPDATE:

WeyounsLastClone has yet to post.
Drench has three posts with any kind of content.
Giuseppe has indicated V/LA, but also not contributed yet at all- getting him stuck in as soon as he returns is a priority.

[The Fonz]

Currently reading and up to page 15. Nice to see some familiar faces. I have a really bad feeling about ABR. He seems to be manipulating. And you're only manipulating if you're scum, otherwise you just have to argue and investigate.

Explain how. Also, HURT SOMEONE! And give reasons. Everyone please note that the last game I played with WLC, he lurked like a mofo there. And was scum. The fact that he shows up the same day i point out he hasn't posted indicates tactical lurking.

I cant really post anything useful right now. Browsing the thread there has been a lot of people campaigning against other people and I can't make a dedicated decision right now (aside from what I've said early in this game).

I'll catch up next week. (Sunday)

That'll be far too late. We need to have killed twice by then.

... *headdesk*

QFT.

this is just a general observation about the game of mafia, but has anyone else ever noticed that when scum are under an intense amount of pressure from one person, the first thing they do is yell OMG TUNNEL VISION

Yes! Definitely true. Refute the arguments, don't just allege tunnelvision. Good townies SHOULD tunnel.

Also, I still want answers to these:

A plan was proposed to heal. Most people were exchanging heals. .

Why did you not consider the obvious point that the plan was antitown?

Just so it's on record - my picks for scum at this point are Xyl, DGB, and albert.

That probably seems a bit OMGUS, but the fact that they're focussing on me instead of someone who's really scummy is really scummy.

Well, apart from the fact that OMGUS doesn't exist. But it does seem a poorly reasoned counter-suspicion- the fact that those players are the only ones you listed as suspects indicates that you haven't seen anyone 'really scummy' for them to attack. And you're hardly a fit person to judge whether you yourself are scummy.

[The Fonz]

Oh, and

Hurt: Shinnen_no_me

The spirit of The Fonz bangs a handily-placed jukebox, caused a volley of records to fly out in Shinnen's direction.

[The Fonz]

What I don’t like about ABR is

that he presents himself in a somewhat commanding tone. He gives directions to people. But he doesn’t necessarily follow that direction, and takes on a different direction himself. He also uses special text with his ‘hurt’, which is something that I absolutely don’t trust.

his personality.

Edited for clarity.

Shinnen_no_Me,

Fallen Seraph

, has been cast out of Heaven.

With carnage erupting all around him, the spirit of the Fonz nonetheless takes a couple of minutes out from his busy schedule of killing fallen angels to perform his legendary 'I told you so' dance.

WOOT.

Heal : rolf.

This really puts viqles.

I suspect ViqlEs is probably OK.

ABR gets NO town cred from me for tossing Shinnen under the Greyhound from the "Biggest Loser World Tour."

If ABR doesn't back me up there, there's no Shinnen wagon.

That is all well and good, but there could very well be a second Seraphim scum (high likelihood? Probably not), but I'm not going to completely discount that chance.

We definitely can't rule it out- I wouldn't be that surprised if there were, say, three town and two scum seraphim. But a dead scum with a particular role at least makes it

less likely

any other given player holding that role is scum.

I need to see if anyone else uninjured strikes me as a serious lynch candidate. I presently doubt it. WWB is my favourite target of the injured at the moment, though i need to reread Hoopla, because i can't at the moment recall for the life of me why there's a wagon there.

Also @WLC: Bitch all you want. We were 25 pages in, and you hadn't posted yet. That's serious lurking. You made excuses in RP mafia, too.

[The Fonz]

I absolutely do not support any DGB hurting.

[The Fonz]

Rofl: I attacked her first, and without wavering. It was I who pointed out the reasons why she was scum. I don't think it's wrong to say that i deserve a substantial portion of the credit. (You hurt Hoopla first, and went on to say you'd hurt whichever was closer to death- you only really went for Shinnen after she hurt you).

[The Fonz]

Also, Seraphim, the player, dont get frustrated for listening to rolf. Trust me. The best idea is to ignore him completely until he realizes how wrong he is in some things.

You know, there are other players this applies to more but....GAAAAAH JUST CAN'T DO IT!

Dont get overconfident, though. Scum can still win. Hard road but they can still do it if we make the same mistake we were about to make yesterday: DAMAGE ANARCHY. Yesterday consensus was easy only because we had to decide between rolf and Shinnen.

There is so much wrong with this I don't even know where to start.

[The Fonz]

Meh. The attacks against you seem to have little merit, but I think the Seraphim case isn't entirely invalid.

[The Fonz]

I'll

Hurt: Hoopla

. His ties with Shinnen seem to take place more early on, and seem to fade when Shinnen gets suspected a bit. That said, I suppose scum isn't entirely stupid so I doubt the other scum would interact too much with Shinnen. Still, for all we know, scum is concocting a master plan by offing one of their own day 1, and try to go from there. But that's not a theory that's fruitful at the moment I guess.

With carnage erupting all around him, the spirit of the Fonz nonetheless takes a couple of minutes out from his busy schedule of killing fallen angels to perform his legendary 'I told you so' dance.

Rofl: I attacked her first, and without wavering. It was I who pointed out the reasons why she was scum. I don't think it's wrong to say that i deserve a substantial portion of the credit. (You hurt Hoopla first, and went on to say you'd hurt whichever was closer to death- you only really went for Shinnen after she hurt you).

The 'look how good I did' is quite meaningless.

Yes. But quite a good feeling, nonetheless, when you've taken a lot of flak, to be proven right.

@WLC: You replaced?

[The Fonz]

Guys, Zwet just injured an uninjured player without appealing for support first.

[The Fonz]

Right. But if you don't want to be patronised, you have to play the game on the same level as everyone else. Which begs the question: why the effing eff would you coming up town say anything about ABR's alignment?

[The Fonz]

Well since you're using them to hurt him, i'm not sure that's a fair question.

I mean, 'Would you rather i kill you or do nothing?' seriously?

[The Fonz]

Does anyone actually find ABR scummy because of Juls?

[The Fonz]

I don't know how to stop my lynch, particularly when hurt comes from players not even trying - but I'll be dead quite soon, so I'm going to try and post some final thoughts in the hope my words mean something when I'm gone. Don't finish me just yet!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
town reaction

Wrong. Scum reaction.

You shouldn't necessarily but you shouldn't try to hang him because of me. When I come up town you will know that my motivations were pure. Then, if you find him scummy at least it will be for the right reasons.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
scum reaction

Wrong. Town reaction.

Both wrong. Player who cares/player who doesn't reactions.

[The Fonz]

drunk posting for the win get ready -

fucking stop hurting viq he is not scum

i'd like an opinion from the following people: xyl, abr, fonz
on this question: which of seraphim and tajo deserves to die more?

i ask because one of them is getting a beatdown as soon as i'm capable, and i'm not stopping til they're dead

Seraphim, clearly. Nontheless, DO NOT HURT WITHOUT SUPPORT ONE ELEVEN!

We have had two players today hurt a previously injured player with no support. Kinetic and Zwet. Kinetic looks like an enormous hypocrite to me for this, since Kinetic is second only to Tajo in counselling about the dangers of 'just hurting who you think is scum.' I want to know why Tajo, if he really is opposed to 'random damage' is ignoring this.

[The Fonz]

.

You're totally scum in my book, but I realize that I have insights into your psychology that others don't, and therefore, convincing the sheeple is probably a losing battle.

You were arguing on basically the same basis for his townieness earlier.

Does anyone feel Kinetic's hypocrisy is noteworthy? Just me then.

Also, Juls feels town to me.

[The Fonz]

That's a pretty solid case by Tajo. It does strike me as bizarre to have ABR, Xyl, Rofl,

and Kinetic

as suspects. I mean, one player suspecting the first three just indicates he has a problem with the aggressive faction. But there's no logic to suspecting those guys, and Kinetic as well, when kinetic at the time was basically the polar opposite. Plus, y'know, the whole being scum last time thing...

[The Fonz]

3 town seraphims against 1 seraphim makes sense to me. 2-2 Seraphims is probable but could be imbalanced, IMO. I dont know where I read it (maybe from the other game, will need to hunt for that quote) but IIRC scum accrue rage points accordingly to their range. That means, Seraphims accrue them more quickly.

Aren't they given out every sunday? Or were, in the last one. Though perhaps seraph scum could use their blades for secret damage.

Here is a fact: Town lost the other 2 games. Flay thought the game was swingy and needed a little bit of balance. Could be that, without knowing it, Flay balanced the game towards town's faction. 2-2 Seraphims goes against this theory.

True. But as I noted, going from 12 to 20 players will have increased the number of town players by at least 6. This, in itself, would swing the game strongly in the town's favour. Again, I don't expect six scum. Therefore, five with two of them being Seraphic makes a lot of sense to me.

Having said that. I dont support more hurting against Walt. His bye post feels town and the case on him was weak since the beginning. This doesnt mean he cant be scum but we have to use this advantage (1 scum less) we have wisely and not going crazy hurting like the end of the world. Call it stalling or whatever the hell you want. We need some order here, specially when rolf is going again with the "Im drunk" excuse and everybody is hurting the FUCK they want..

You already know why town lost the other game, right? Maybe, its time you listen.

You know how you completely ignored people's 'random hurting' without support earlier? Yeah, that. At this point, unless we're going to spend a ton of actions on healing him- and i think enough people still strongly suspect him to make that unwise- then leaving him where one rage point can kill him is just silly. Scum can kill him without any effort if he's town, and knowing his alignment is useful.

Everybody hurting Walt, do you still think he is scum?

I'm waiting for a damage count to confirm or disprove his claim before I finalize my judgement. I kinda think keeping him alive and using his double damage ability as a town tool would be the best play. If he really is a Seraph, we can use his damage to burn through a few other suspected scum and then use their flips for more confirms. If he doesn't damage as ordered, we kill him. The same type of theory is used when a vig/SK is discovered and the town can't confirm that player's alignment.

Where have I seen this before?

I said something similar in one of my other ongoing games?

DO NOT DISCUSS ONGOING GAMES.

After Xyl is dead, I would suggest looking into Seraphim and anyone else who believes xyl is town. I get strong town vibes from Tajo and Kinetic and we all know that Nuwen and rofl are more than likely town. Xyl and for when I flip town, (Way to go guiness, your instincts were brilliant huh? )That's it, good luck town!

I really dont see Waltscum doing this post.

I absolutely do.

It tells the scum who is an Ophan, in case the town is trying to keep it secret.

Also, there may be other town roles which aren't listed in the second post.

By 'semi-open' I take it to mean all possible roles listed in first post.

At ABR and TheFonz: what do you think of Walt? Seems today you guys kept more quite than usual.

You mean the day I didn't get online until now? That day?

Grrr. I seriously want to know WWB's alignment before i hurt anyone more. But... i need beddy-byes soon...

[The Fonz]

Ah, this is the point of the game where distinct factions form, and the town members of each get killed off by the other.

Lurkerhunt anyone?

[The Fonz]

He didn't strawman, you really were like that.
Bandwagoning isn't scummy.
Care to point to the wifom?

[The Fonz]

Juls, whatever you think of her, isn't lurking, in the sense of 'acting so as not to attract attention.' She's like flying the flag for lurking, which ironically makes her not really a lurker.

[The Fonz]

Yep, Drenchhurting seems a good way to go.

Call hurt on Drench

[The Fonz]

Hurt: Drench

[The Fonz]

Fine. Does that count as an FS hurt? Or should I do it over?

[The Fonz]

Again, you're ignoring how actually scummy you were. Look, your case is: 'surely a good player wouldn't have tried hard to kill me?' Several people thought you were scum; several didn't. Those who were wrong on you were right on others, and those right on you will be wrong.

[The Fonz]

Burden of proficiency

First time i've suspected you. I know full well you believe that can be valid.

Of course, you've been on a scumwagon, so...

[The Fonz]

@WWB: There's no point going back through a megathread and building a case on a dead player. Just believe me, there's plenty of reason to find you suspect.

[The Fonz]

True. Now, who else is actually lurking? I remember tenchi saying he couldn't post for a week. (!) Don't recall q21 posting as much lately.

[The Fonz]

You know, DGB, one of these days, you're going to be right on one of your crusades.

[The Fonz]

No, Obama is The One.

/hijack

[The Fonz]

You know, that's an awesome idea. Might even help me control my temper. I'm going to do each hurt in the style of a different movie.

[The Fonz]

Can someone link me to a 'typical' Zwet town/scum game?

[The Fonz]

Yep, Drenchhurting seems a good way to go.

Call hurt on Drench

didn't drench get replaced? can we have more paying attention please?

Dude, it's a fucking forty page thread, sometimes you're going to miss one or two of them. Seraphim said he was a lurker, i looked up his posts and there was a lot of lurking and no replacement request, so I hurt.

lurker hunting is the wrong decision when the obvious scum are sitting right in front of us. abr, what the hell happened to you helping me with kinetic? you called an intent to hurt and i do not remember you following through.

I don't see an obvious scum. I see a faction war.

Ok. That's too many people with damage. And what do we do with WaltWishbone? I think I believe he's not scum now.

I suggest he starts dishing out the hurts. I don't think we should heal him till the next scum dies. Then do it en masse whilst we're analysing that wagon.

I definitely don't want anyone new hurting- and Juls looks town to me. Will probably hurt Zwet.

[The Fonz]

THE VOTING SYSTEM NEEDS TO BE REVIVED TO BRING ORDER TO THIS CHAOS.
THE VOTING SYSTEM THINKS IN YOUR RIGHT TO LIVE IF YOU ARE NOT A FALLEN ANGLE.
THE VOTING SYSTEM CAN TAKE CARE OF THE FALLEN ANGELS. IT WOULD BE NOT AS FAST AS HURTING ANARCHY BUT IT WOULD BE ORDERED.
VOTE VOTING SYSTEM NAO.
GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO.
YES WE CAN.

So now hurting anarchy is bad again? After you've been completely unwilling to take action on people hurting without support because it was ok now we killed a scum? Man, my head hurts.

The Buddy System isn't being used. How can we enforce it?

Hurt Zwet or Kinetic. They're the ones who hurt without making a case or waiting for support. THE WHOLE BLOODY POINT OF THE BUDDY SYSTEM IS TO REQUIRE PEOPLE TO MAKE CASES AND CANVAS FOR SUPPORT BEFORE THE HURTING STARTS.

q21, what exactly makes you so comfortable with lynching a claimed Ophanim?

A claimed Ophan. Ophanim is the plural. But sure, why not? There are scum seraphim. There's likely a scum ophan.

That said, my middle of the road scum detector is starting to ping on Q21. I'm not going to call the hurt yet, because I need to re-assess, and there are other players i'm suspicious of... but i thought i'd point it out.

[The Fonz]

@Again- if a significant faction want someone dead, they die eventually. If you want to survive, what you need to do is rally support for killing roflcopter. Having your supporters heal you whilst Rofl etc kill you WILL JUST STALL THE GAME WHILST RAGE ACCUMULATES. For like the zillionth time.

That my plan is scum-favoring is the biggest pile of horseshit i've ever heard. Your plan was scum-favoring.

I mean, I strongly feel Juls is town. But if a significant faction want her dead, she's going to die sooner rather than later. If I try to heal her, rather than

getting on with scumhunting,

the town will lose.

Obviously, dealing out hurts left right and centre, rather than isolating one suspect, building a case, then hurting to death is mega scummy.

But if 3 bumbling idiots think I'm scum, then hell yeah, its on. I'm gonna bring the scum crashing.

I kinda like the symmetry of both Kinetic and ABR complaining that they're in the firing line due to a handful of people being convinced they're scum.

Intent to hurt is negated by Intent to heal, so if there are more people who WANT to heal me, you can't hurt me.

Hmmm. So now a little bit of Xyl's system, is it? It seems to me, Albert, you seem to be appropriating, and advocating, whichever part of whichever system seems most likely to keep you alive.

I'm not going to be participating in this ABR/rofl vs Kinetic etc faction battle. At least, not immediately. The reason for this is:

Nuwen killed off an obvtown for the spurious reason of 'getting information on Rofl's alignment.' Comes up town, conveniently giving him and his scumbuddies excuse to go after the other town seraph. Sacrifice move? Rofl dies, comes up town, he starts killracing, using rage dumps to finish off people.

At present, I think Nuwen, q21, and Zwet are scum.

3) Firestarter fine, replace with Fonz. Fonz endorses killing you.
?

WHAT!?

Yeah I call for a ceasefire to do a complete re-read.

Can I maybe get some heals then... I really don't like being so perilously close to dying...

NO!!! Survival instinct ftl! (if town).

[The Fonz]

Hmmm... re-read shows one actually-significant thing done by q21 is hurting zwet. Rethink.

[The Fonz]

@Again- if a significant faction want someone dead, they die eventually. If you want to survive, what you need to do is rally support for killing roflcopter. Having your supporters heal you whilst Rofl etc kill you WILL JUST STALL THE GAME WHILST RAGE ACCUMULATES. For like the zillionth time.

That my plan is scum-favoring is the biggest pile of horseshit i've ever heard. Your plan was scum-favoring.

Both plans could potentially favor scum.

Your plan is more likely to cause a significant portion of the town to be hurt at the same time which I fear is a MUCH bigger threat to town because each rage point has more impact.

The conserve hurts and concentrate fire plan has the potential to take a little time, thus allowing a few more rage points to accumulate, however each rage point is reduced in power since in order to kill someone a larger amount of them would be needed to kill.

Except that my plan calls for concentrating fire. Just not to the extent that no-one ever gets hurt unless a majority of the town agree.

Thus, I've been sort of Angling for something a little middle of the road:

Concentrate fire, so we don't have a large amount of the town low, through a consensus, but not take a long time to decide this.

Cool. And I'd like to hurt scum, but I don't want them to hurt town.

By which i mean- the whole thing depends on what you mean by 'consensus' and 'not take a long time.' If by consensus, you mean 'more than half the town want to hurt the same player' then I'm sorry, but it's just not possible to get that without it taking a long time. A two-week day is fast by the standards of mafiascum large games. But we really need to be killing every 3-4 days.

If you try to get round this by setting four-day deadlines, you're going to have plurality lynches. But then you have the top wagon at maybe five supporters, and a couple of others at three or four. Many of whom perhaps feel that the person targeted by the five-man wagon is obvtown, and those on it scum.

Are Rofl and ABR considered a "significant faction" all of a sudden? Plus, I'm not convinced that they are scum just yet. The problem with this game is that votes cannot be moved very fast and are effectively permanent in some ways.

Well, if there's only two of them, then it will take a long time to kill someone.

Healing is a useful mechanic and it should be used in certain cases. When someone that a LARGE MAJORITY of the town feel is town is low in health (Hell, like Walt), healing is a good thing so they cannot be sniped.

Well, with Walt, he seemed SO obvtown... but if we were going to heal, we should have masshealed. As I said, one or two heals wouldn't stop the scum ragekilling him quickly. But yes, if information comes up such that a player seems obvtown, and a majority of the town agree, healing can be done. If we kill a scum, it might well make sense to heal all damage done by that scum while we heal. But so long as a player is controversial, with multiple people on either side, healing just stalls the game.

Ummm, no. Right now I'm in range to be killed by VERY few rage points. I'd like a few heals so that I could at least be above that range. Seeing as I can be killed a lot faster than I can be healed, I don't think its an inappropriate request.

But no. Because, again, there are people who think you are scum and want you dead. If scum want to rage-kill you, then they're eliminating a top town suspect for us. That's the point you seem to not be considering- anyone hurt enough to be in range of rage kills is either a suspect of enough people, or has one or two people absolutely convinced they're scum.

Hmmm... re-read shows one actually-significant thing done by q21 is hurting zwet. Rethink.

May I take this as one of the two sanctions I want to hurt zwet again?

Of course not? It looks like nothing of the sort. It's merely pointing out that whilst Zwet looks like the scummiest of the ophanim, and you look like one of my very highest suspects, your attack on him DOES NOT look like a bus, and therefore any theory which involves you both being scum therefore needs a rethink.

May I take this as one of the two sanctions I want to hurt zwet again?

I'm against hurting zwet.

So, one for, one against? I'll wait until it gets to two more for than against.

Trying to decide what exactly a Juls-town flip tells us. The answer I believe is, well, nothing. Except that she honestly did think ABR as the towniest player.

That her wagon was just as bad as a certain character from a sitcom set in the 50s said it was.

Kinetic, it's hugely unlikely that you'll be healed enough, unless there's a coalition of players in favor of it. I certainly would could myself as part of this coalition.

Any volunteers?

I just need a couple of heals to get out of danger of a rage dump. Right now given even conservative estimates I can be killed by a rage dump.

Rage dumps are going to kill

someone.

I'm hurting ABR or Kinetic later today.

Who's your support for this hurt?

You're already injured, he doesn't need it. The entire wagon thus far is support.

Did you not see his fabricated argument with ABR?

I'd agree with you if the arguments with ABR was a binary contest between Kinetic and ABR. Kinetic seems very nervous that the SCUM will kill him, and that seems genuine and not fake at all.

I really don't know about this. I mean, if scum were really minded to use rage points to get rid of Kinetic, they could've by now.

Sleeping on it helps.

So... ABR's reaction was

WHAM

OMGUS, with some ad hom thrown in. Since then he's covered it okay, but it's pretty obvious that his skin is more important to him than scumhunting. Looks scummy to me. Anyone have a meta on ABR? Some people have mentioned he plays like this as scum, how does he play as town?

Erratic. ABR was Zwet before Zwet was.

Also: Xyl has started lurkerhunting again precisely as soon as Rofl called him out for not doing such. Having claimed to have 'run out of lurkers.' (I don't know why he put a sad face there. A no-lurk game is what we want).

[The Fonz]

No. Juls was not a lurker. You can say she didn't give opinions of her own, but she was posting, and hurting.

[The Fonz]

fonz, help me kill xyl, will you?

I'll hurt Seraphim with you, if you like. Picking out scummy things he's said:

@Xyl

Juls and WaltWishbone are lurking, correct?

I also think it's important to sort out the lurkers from the scummy lurkers. Generally, scum lurkers will either say less or pretend that they're saying something when they're not.

ABR:

1. Why did you switch your attack so quickly?

2. Why is Shinnen scum?

Then defends Xyl, attacks Zwet, claims not to see the Shinnen case.

Heals Xyl.

I could support a Hoopla hurt if someone could point out the case to me. I don't fully understand it.

Another dead town.

Alright.

In this game, I quickly notice three groups emerging. There's the attackers, who want a fast game with quick hurts and fast kills, the healers who want full town consensus before making decisions and lots of healing, and the middlers who want fast kills but want at least some town consensus before attacking.

I think the scum are most likely to be the people with no opinion or who constantly jump opinions in order to fit whichever of these groups currently has the sweep of the board. At the beginning of the game, the aggressive players managed to grip the town by pointing out rage points and how quick deaths are best for the town. Then the healers took control of the board again by claiming that organized hurting/healing is best for the town. Right now, the aggressive players have control again, as evident by all the hurting going around right now.

Looking back, Hoopla seems to switch between the two extremes. At first, she was one of the first people to drop a hurt...and then proceeding to become one of Tajo's largest endorsers. Her constant switching of sides, not to mention healing players for no reason, does not seem town at all.

At the moment, I still want to heal Xyl tomorrow so that scum do not kill him. After that, I will continue to hurt zwet until he is dead and then start on Hoopla or Juls. Juls will immediately elevate if zwet flips scum as the town of them have been buddying against Xyl the entire game.

Continues Hoopla persecution, and Xyl healing.

Then the Shinnen hurt seems to come absolutely out of nowhere.

I've got Seraph as scum, with Xyl as a likely buddy. But i think the Seraph case is stronger in isolation.

[The Fonz]

I want to know if any Ophanim saw anything before hurting.

[The Fonz]

But didn't that graph show rage showing up every couple of days?

[The Fonz]

Two things i'd like responses on:

1. Considering Tajo said repeatedly that Shinnen was scum, and in hindsight obvscum, why did he never hurt her?

2. Nuwen to expand on reason for killing Walt when everyone knew he was obvtown. Single scummiest thing done this game.

[The Fonz]

Trigger finger... getting itchy...

[The Fonz]

you would say that, since you're scum too

Scum like Kinetic?

Scum like Juls?

[The Fonz]

1st off...

Fonz idea of the buddy plan, one has a case, and the other likes it enough to join in. It will not win the game for town. Its more likely to aide scum imo.

*

Scum concocts a valid case on a town member playing poorly. Town member jumps on board. Town member recieves hurt.

As opposed to scum makes valid case on town playing poorly, town gets lynched?

*

Town member makes convincing case against another Town member. Opportunistic Scum jumps on board. Another Town member recieves hurt.

As opposed to town member makes convincing case on other town member, opportunistic scum jump on board, town player gets lynched?

*

Town member makes convincing case against another town member.
Town member jumps on board. Townmember receives hurt.

Your argument appears to be the following. Some town people think some other town people are scum.

At this point, I think its more than likely that more Townmembers will get stung with this system than scum will, given the percieved numbers.

Why? All you've demonstrated is that town can get hurt if people can make a convincing case for them being scum. Town can also get lynched if people make a convincing case for them being scum.

Given that the mechanic in this game is most likely similar to the first mini, Rage points prove to be a real pain in the ass right now, regardless of time spent in game.

Rage points are MORE of a problem when we take longer, because there are more of them.

One of the powers we all have is being completly overlooked here, and scum are laughing up their sleeves at town.
The power I speak of?

HEAL!!!!!

The said Town members who recieved hurts through Fonz' system are now sitting ducks to be murdered.
Scum rape disorganised town, and eventually win.

STALLS THE GAME STALLS THE GAME STALLS THE GAME

Those people who have received hurts through this system are those who PEOPLE SUSPECT. If one group of people suspect and want to hurt a player, and another don't and want to heal him, XYZZY!

At this very point, it seems scum may have used up what rage points they had, and do not have the power to secretly hurt further until they recharge.

Except that a) scum recharge today and b) surely scum getting recharges every week is an argument for, i don't know, trying to kill another scum before they can recharge?

How on Earth this was overlooked is amazing imo...

It wasn't overlooked. It was rejected because it was SCUMMY AS FUCK.

obsolete issues

More importantly, we need to know who you think is town, and who you think is scum. Please write a comprehensive list, with your thoughts on each player. Thanks.

Correct. It is clear the implications of his actions are to slow the game to allow rage to build up. Both the healing plan, and the trying to discuss it rather than who is scum, are significant game-stallers.

1. Funnily enough, the first plan used was the most succesful. The 2nd plan is currently town destructive.

Explain how it was successful. In the first game, those aeons where the plan was in place, the town pissed around for a week whilst scum picked them off one-by-one with their ever increasing rage.

2. The current plan is NOT done with general concensus.

3. The voting plan did work. Used once, caught scum.

This is actually a lie. The first scum was caught by THE FONZ PLAN. I spotted a scum, called the hurt, ABR backed me up, Kinetic piled on, Albert and I hurt again...

Again. You talk about consensus. GETTING MORE THAN HALF THE PLAYERS TO AGREE ON ONE TARGET WILL TAKE FOREVER. HEALING EVERYONE BEFORE WE DO THAT WILL MAKE IT FOREVER +1, AND OF COURSE THE HEALING IS LIKELY TO BENEFIT SCUM AS MUCH AS IT DOES TOWN. See my prior post on the matter- all that healing does it make it harder to kill ANYONE, scum or town.

Very simple, Firestarter. The voting system will result in a deadlock with equal players on each side.

The benefits of the current plan are:

1) it stops us from being in complete anarchy
2) it is easily enforceable (no need to wait for vote counts, no need to wait for every player to weigh in)
3) any abuse in the system can be spotted and dealt with
4) it keeps the game moving without the fallen accumulating too much rage

Given the lurkers / people without strong opinions, it would be too hard to establish a majority of players agreeing, and it would take too long.

Also, discussing a change of plan at this point sidetracks us from catching scum and stalls the game, which is what we want to avoid at all cost as I just mentioned.

True. The problem is that people are unwilling to enforce. Killing Kinetic, who defected and started random damaging, is a good start. Zwet is the next worst offender.

I propose that 3 players need to be on any mini wagon for Hurt to happen.
The active players in this game, are likely not all town, and if scum has a strong opinion, they can jump onto whatever mini wagon suits them.

I have no problem with this.

I'm just shocked with the pace of the kills. I'm thinking that we lost are lead after we got our first scum.

I am not sure of what context "the plan" you have is in, but I feel that a small group (small scum infested/infiltrated group?) dominating the hurts is just bad.

Let's have more discussion. When we added a bit of more thinking, I think we do well together. I think we should try to do what we (or you guys) did the first few days in this game.

This post includes nothing about who is scum, just an expression of bewilderment and a call for more discussion... ie more rage build-up.

I don't approve of the WLC hurting... his plan isn't that bad, and the level of paranoia he's exhibiting is consistent with WLC-town.

Also I'm going to be kind of pissed if you guys let roflcopter bring me down to rage range singlehandedly. He claimed support from ABR and Juls, but Juls is dead and ABR appears to have switched to WLC.

ABR needs to stop switching and settle on a single wagon. The idea of the buddy system was that someone pick someone to die, then go through with it. If multiple people are claiming ABR as their supporter, something's very wrong. Likewise DGB's shifting.

I do agree that Firestarter's backing down is somewhat town.

I just have a real problem with the WLC wagon, because i suffer from horrific confirmation bias with regard to him. I've never not thought he was scum. He lurks, and he gets paranoid, and he often refuses to give opinions because he thinks he's being manipulated. My gut says town here.

My PM to watch was about 8 hours too early, so I have to try again. It's interesting to note that scum realized this in order to quickly dump their rage points before my watch cycle started.

Wait... aren't watch PMs secret between you and the mod? How could scum have realised this if you aren't one?

so, roflcopter... as the guy who did most of the damage to Kinetic, how do you feel about him turning up town?

as the guy who led a fifty page long crap attack on walt, how would you like to get bent?

hurt; xylthixlm

my decision is made with a mighty blade

Rofl, stop.

[The Fonz]

Here's an idea i just thought of after the post... since i strongly suspect one of the seraphim is scum, how about both agree to not use their blades? That reduces the effectiveness of one-man wagons.

[The Fonz]

I am alright getting killed by a town organized towards my death with discussion and a case [...]

So you don't think your wagon is scum-driven? It's a town-driven wagon?

He doesn't have a wagon.

My PM to watch was about 8 hours too early, so I have to try again. It's interesting to note that scum realized this in order to quickly dump their rage points before my watch cycle started.

Wait... aren't watch PMs secret between you and the mod? How could scum have realised this if you aren't one?

GENIUS

Good catch... Fonzie cuaght us some scum.

What slip did I make? I think I made it pretty obvious to everyone that I was going to start watching after Juls died. All scum had to do is check to see that they still had a few risk-free hours after my hurt action to dump their rage. I'm sort of confused as to what I said that was "damning"

You said Scum took advantage of your pm going in too early. The only way scum know when your pm is going in is IF YOU TELL THEM.

I'm not. THAT'S WHY I MADE MY COMMENT THAT FONZ MISREPPED.

Liar. I didn't misrep you.

unless you're scum and you're looking for excuses as to why you never catch anyone.

Which is precisely what I suspect.

Wait, so Fonz points out one thing about zwet, something that can genuinely be explained in a non-scummy way and you're ready to view zwet as scum.
I point what he's done in thread that is scummy and you ignore it and call him town.
How does that work?

I've been calling zwet town all game, but if The Fonz had been correct with his premise (he was NOT), then I could see how it would indicate that the scum had inside knowledge. Had The Fonz been right, then I would have changed my stance on zwet. Your case wasn't convincing, there were more convincing cases at the time.

Again, I wasn't wrong. I asked Zwet to explain how scum could have taken advantage of his pm going in early and therefore his watch being missed, when they couldn't know when his pm went in.

On another note, advertising the times you are going to be watching helps get scum nervous about using their rage points (which I think they could use now to finish me off)

No, it just tells them when they can dump their rage without fear.

If there are 6 people attacking me, Nurse Ratchet, they can't all be scum.

You made it sound like they're all town.

No, he doesn't.

Look, Weyoun is the one who started the ABR hurting... with no backing. Since Weyoun is likely to die soon, don't you think we should see how he flips before starting on ABR? Spreading damage ftl!

[The Fonz]

q21:

1) I don't need backing to hurt a lurker.

Yes you do.

2) I still want to hurt zwet.

Then you should be hurting him.

Fonz is NOT saying you should never heal anyone, he's saying that you shouldn't heal someone who is actively being hurt.

That's true. But you also shouldn't be healing people not in danger. Which only leaves healing those once suspected, but who circumstances have now rendered obvtown. Like WWB.

I posted ITT exactly when I was going to send my PM. You should try reading next time.

Right, but that's an incredibly antitown action that no-one in their right mind would do.

[The Fonz]

I posted ITT exactly when I was going to send my PM. You should try reading next time.

I've checked, and this is actually a direct lie.

Zwet says this:

I don't need support to hurt whoever I find scummy. Actually, nevermind. I've started my meditation, so forget the hurts.

Zwen NEVER said

precisely

when his watch began.

[The Fonz]

Interesting ABR. With all that is going on right now, that statement was a long-shot. Similar to the attacks of Shinnen on the 75% thing.

Noted.

I don't understand this.

Shinnen's 75% attack was an attempt to twist a reasonable approximation (about a quarter of each town are usually scum) into an allegation of secret knowledge.

Your attempt to paint albert's 'those townies on my wagon' stance as knowing they are all town is similar.

[The Fonz]

I'm still trying to figure out who on the Shinnen wagon was scum. There has to be at least two.

Gimme a sec.

[The Fonz]

Seraphim still stands out as looking like a bus.

The troika of seraph, xyl, and nuw follows.

Question to everyone: do you feel the Shinnen hurt on rofl is likely distancing, or genuine attempt to harm an antagonist?

[The Fonz]

Why? (OK, i'm being facetious- it's obvious).

[The Fonz]

The above is addressed to Xyl. simulposted with dgb.

[The Fonz]

THat would be the obvious bit, Xyl.

[The Fonz]

Question to everyone: do you feel the Shinnen hurt on rofl is likely distancing, or genuine attempt to harm an antagonist?

It looks like the latter in my opinion.
Shinnen attacks Rofl in several of her posts.

Shinnen was advocating discussion in the main which allows for delaying tactics, and rofl's slaughter tactics seemed to be getting to Shinnen.

However, I think theres more likely a case of distancing from Seraphim from what I see in Shinnens isolated posts.

What stance are we taking with unilateral actions..
Single helas/hurts should not go unpunished.

Can we clear this up..?

No. But the problem is, you then need to get support to enforce it.

[The Fonz]

Ah, I've had an idea. Designate a specific player as designated enforcer, on a 24 hr rota. That player may not harm or heal of their own volition, but will be required to enforce the hurting without support rule (not needing support). If they break it, everyone else in the scheme masshurts, no questions asked.

We don't even need full compliance for this, as long as there's enough partaking to defend the system.

[The Fonz]

No.

It would be individually giving up your hurt for 24hrs at a time, so that any player who hurt unilaterally would be similarly hurt. (obviously, if someone actually needs to hurt, we move onto the next enforcer on the list).

[The Fonz]

Well, I'm fully charged, and don't particularly like any of the viable wagons. So I'll go first. Please type /in to enforce if wishing to be added to the rota.

[The Fonz]

No.

It would be individually giving up your hurt for 24hrs at a time, so that any player who hurt unilaterally would be similarly hurt. (obviously, if someone actually needs to hurt, we move onto the next enforcer on the list).

Anyone stepping outside a boundry after it has been enforced, in my eyes, is anti-town.

For the alternate suggestion to work, we need everyone to commit to a 24 hour watch, and that they will go ahead with the said counter-hurt.

If we can get all active players to agree, fine.

# Albert B. Rampage
# Drench Firestarter
# DrippingGoofball
# Giuseppe
# Nuwen
# populartajo
# q21
# roflcopter
# Seraphim
# Tenchi
# The Fonz
# vIQleS
# WeyounsLastClone
# Xylthixlm
# zwetschenwasser

What about players currently under high suspicion??

We don't need all active players. Five or six is probably enough.

[The Fonz]

No.

It would be individually giving up your hurt for 24hrs at a time, so that any player who hurt unilaterally would be similarly hurt. (obviously, if someone actually needs to hurt, we move onto the next enforcer on the list).

Now this worries me. Can't just we all just behave and be accountable for our hurts? If Townies are irresposnisible enough to hurt people without proper discussion, opinion from others and rebuttal etc. I feel that it will just spread out the hurts.

If townies are irresponsible enough to do that, it will spread out the hurts. It's a deterrent.

I have to say, I find DGB's idea a bit better in a perfect world, but it's a bit idealistic. I think if we could get a group of people who present the CounterHurt unit, then we could leave the rest of the town to their devises.

Maybe, say, three or four people who would dedicate their hurts to dealing with unilateral action?

Not just- that's an excuse for noncontribution. If we can get enough people that you're only giving up one day a week though, it works.

[The Fonz]

Right, firestarter. You're on after me, so don't hurt in the seven or so hours between becoming able to hurt and going on duty.

[The Fonz]

No-one's proposing we stop scumhunting, dude. Just that i will not be using my hurt until this time tomorrow, unless someone lone wolfs it.

@ Xyl: weren't you the one bitching about rofl 'single-handedly' putting you in rage range?

[The Fonz]

And I'll be after Firestarter? Alright, that gives me another 48 hours, meaning another action for me. Probably going to hurt ABR.

Yep. Use it. (Within the restrictions laid out).

Anyone going to join us? Could do with 2-3 more enforcers.

[The Fonz]

I feel instant reprisal will be more effective and visible.

(I don't really have a problem with a guy starting duty with, say, four hours before he can hurt. But I'm not going to leave it 24).

[The Fonz]

Oh, could people please comment on my seraphim case?

[The Fonz]

Yes.

[The Fonz]

Rofl, dead people can't wagon. You can use his opinion to argue for it, but you can't count him as a supporter, nevermind two.

[The Fonz]

No. It's attempting to stop random damage, whilst allowing wagons with decent support to still hurt without requiring consensus.

Besides, you can still hurt without support. I'm just going to hurt you the second you do.

[The Fonz]

Oh now I know. You pointed Seraphim was scum and Xyl was the buddy.

I was thinking that I'd rather lynch Xyl first because of what I had in my notes.

hey this looks like more support for me hurting xyl

How hard is this, rofl? He has to say 'I support Rofl in the hurting of Xyl' IN SO MANY words and commit to hurting him if you do.

[The Fonz]

Rofl, dead people can't wagon. You can use his opinion to argue for it, but you can't count him as a supporter, nevermind two.

he would still be alive to support me if nuwen hadn't nuked him for no good reason when everyone agreed that his "i thought i was dead" posts made him GOD DAMN OBVIOUS TOWN. speaking of that, where is nuwen, and why has no one decided she deserves punishment for single-handedly nuking an obvtown player?

guess i'm just more visible?

I do believe that's incredibly scummy- i believe i called it 'the single scummiest thing anyone has done thus far.' But no-one else supports me.

[The Fonz]

Also, she's not posted since, so hasn't had the chance to explain herself. People have kinda forgotten about her since she's not posting.

[The Fonz]

And what are the exact rules. How much support is agreed upon? And can one support multiple wagons? If so, how much at once? I for one support rofl hurting Xyl, as well as the wagon now going on ABR. I also seriously question Firestarters motives (he resurrects an idea that didn't work in the first plays, and is playing on the safe side by going after the obvious).

A wagon must have a minimum of three supporters.
You can only support one at a time.

And I still think the heal-mechanic is underused. If more people used heal, more people could use hurt without putting someone in direct danger, I think we'd get more info. If the info put around is true, scum would only get rage points after six days from now.

NO NO NO!

[The Fonz]

I'm surprised and upset at Fonz's attempt at making me render my watch completely useless by claiming who I'm watching

MASSIVE MISREP. Never said anything of the sort.

[The Fonz]

i'm noticing how hard its suddenly becoming for any sort of consensus to be made

the (really stupid) rules that are being shoved down are throats now involve only being allowed to suspect ONE PERSON AT A TIME, and not suspecting ANYONE if you'd rather be healing

with a dedicated heal squad forming, how are we ever supposed to find three people who are free to agree on hurting someone?

It's a hurt squad, not a heal squad. We don't heal the victim, we hurt the perpetrator.

the (really stupid) rules that are being shoved down are throats now involve only being allowed to suspect ONE PERSON AT A TIME, and not suspecting ANYONE if you'd rather be healing

QFT

I violently disagree with this strategy, I have no idea why suddenly it was 'needed.' I can just see those Rage Points piling up as we bicker.

This was the strat all along (though raised from two to three to assuage the concerns of the consensual faction). We're just enforcing it now to prevent random damage.

Rofl, what's your fucking problem? You can only vote one player at a time in a normal game.

[The Fonz]

Same system it was from the start, except that a) mimimum number of people on a wagon is now three and not two and b) we've put together a dedicated squad to kill anyone dealing out what you call random damage.

Why do you have seraphim as town? His is the Shinnen hurt that looks most bus-like.

[The Fonz]

Rofl, what's your fucking problem? You can only vote one player at a time in a normal game.

but you can be vocally suspicious of multiple players. i believe in common parlance its called an "FoS".

Yes... but a hurt is stronger than a normal vote. So you need more backing than normal, not less. You can have a secondary suspect if you want, but you need to concentrate your fire on no1 (or rather, the most viable wagon you can bring yourself to support).

[The Fonz]

No, it is to stop random damage and consolidate wagons. You don't have nukes because you want to use them.

[The Fonz]

But votes, Tajo, require too much consensus and stall the game.

[The Fonz]

But votes, Tajo, require too much consensus and stall the game.

That is a big problem but we can fix it like a normal game. Deadlines. If we dont get a consensus, the player with more votes is dead.

I've explained this problem. The only way this works is if you get reasonably close to a consensus, and convince those on the 'losing' wagons to stick to it. If you've got, say, 5-4-4, and a really badly divided town like this, it can't work.

[The Fonz]

Your system hasnt worked that well with so much anarchy and possible scum leading hurts or hiding behind intents to hurts. The Shinnen lynch was not a product of the Fonz system, FYI. All the townie deaths prob are. Specially Kinetic.

THat's completely untrue. I've explained how it was.

[The Fonz]

Your system hasnt worked that well with so much anarchy and possible scum leading hurts or hiding behind intents to hurts. The Shinnen lynch was not a product of the Fonz system, FYI. All the townie deaths prob are. Specially Kinetic.

THat's completely untrue. I've explained how it was.

Kinetic died because people randomll hurted him, specially rolf.

Which you're trying to claim is due to the plan, when in fact it's in direct contravention of it.

The same happened with Waly and Xyl, with the exception of rage points.

Walt was wagoned because loads of people thought him scum. I'm not apologising for that. THough him being killed after becoming obvtown, again, was nothing to do with the plan.

Shinnen died becuase basically there had to be at least 1 scum between Rolf and SHinnen. Not for your plan.

Shinnen died because I hurt, Albert supported, this made it into a serious wagon. We then pressed people to consolidate onto one of the handful of singnificant wagons.

[The Fonz]

Which you're trying to claim is due to the plan, when in fact it's in direct contravention of it.

[The Fonz]

Fonz, but what is preventing scum for not joining the plan and start hurting like monkeys?

Tajo, but what is preventing scum from not voting and start hurting like monkeys?

[The Fonz]

No. I don't.

My point is that you're suggesting that the problem is caused by scum 'hurting like monkeys.'

My plan prohibits hurting like monkeys. So does yours. The action to prevent it would be the same- threat of hurt as a sanction.

[The Fonz]

No. I don't.

My point is that you're suggesting that the problem is caused by scum 'hurting like monkeys.'

My plan prohibits hurting like monkeys. So does yours. The action to prevent it would be the same- threat of hurt as a sanction.

Yeah.

In this example rolf is the monkey.

If scum, he is hiding behind the "Intent to hurt" plan to kill his targets. He only has to be convincing, find a scummy player and some people will join him.

Again, this describes pretty much any wagon anywhere. Find someone who looks scummy and be convincing.

If town, scum are using him to hit players.

Tell me Fonz, what analysis can you get of Kinetic's death?

Would you rather the same thing happened, but took forever? THAT'S waht the Tajo plan means.

[The Fonz]

Firestarter and zwetschenwasser have 4 damage each.

We need to heal these players.

If no-one agrees on firestarter, sure.

Zwet is scummy.

[The Fonz]

By agrees, i mean seriously suspects right now.

[The Fonz]

Hurt: Weyounslastclone

Enforcement time!

Future Fonz: Dude, I'm you.

Me: You're me?

Future Fonz: Yeah, it's kinda complicated. But you gotta hurt WeyounsLastClone.

Me: OK wait. If you're really me, what hurt method am I thinking of?

BOTH: RIGHTEOUS FLAMING AXE OF FURY, DUDE!

[The Fonz]

You'd have to ask him.

[The Fonz]

Yes.

For starters, i need to know how you'll enforce it. I mean, you say you don't want to enforce not-hurting by hurting. Well, then you've got no effective sanction.

[The Fonz]

Well, doesn't that commit me to killing Rofl for one violation? I don't think he's scum. If Nuwen's scum, killing Rofl could be catastrophic.

You still have the problem that if you set the deadlines short enough, then there's going to be nothing close to a consensus and you'll be mandating everyone to masshate on the basis of the votes of perhaps as few as four players.

[The Fonz]

Well, doesn't that commit me to killing Rofl for one violation? I don't think he's scum. If Nuwen's scum, killing Rofl could be catastrophic.

So there's an exception to the rule for copter, who is allowed to hurt without consequence? Or did I misunderstand you.

I intend to hurt him once for every unwarranted hurt he dishes out. I don't intend to kill him for doing it once. Of course, i'm kinda stuck since he just waited for someone else to violate the policy, me to hurt them, and then violated it himself whilst there were no charged up enforcers. So i would like firestarter to hurt rofl as soon as he's charged, because the rabbit's basically taking the piss.

Well, doesn't that commit me to killing Rofl for one violation? I don't think he's scum. If Nuwen's scum, killing Rofl could be catastrophic.

You still have the problem that if you set the deadlines short enough, then there's going to be nothing close to a consensus and you'll be mandating everyone to masshate on the basis of the votes of perhaps as few as four players.

Isnt this what "intent to hurt supported for four players" does?
Look, we have a problem here. People hurting like monkeys. We have to find a way to solve it and at the same time having a decent and relatively quick consensus on someone to kill. I can think in anything but fakevoting.

It's by two other players. And the difference here is if you've got a couple of small wagons, both will be hurt. So players don't feel cheated.

[The Fonz]

Allowing people to vote multiple times makes them less attached to their votes, though.

[The Fonz]

Hehe. Well, i suspect basically everyone. But making people stick their necks out for one particular lynch is much more informative.

Tajo, how about this. Once WLC, is dead, we give your system a try. Split phases. First two days, people vote for whoever. Third day, we require people to choose between the top two wagons (or the first and however many are tied for second, if there is such a tie). End of third day, masshurt.

heck, if we do this, there's even time to massheal Firestarter before we need to masshurt.

[The Fonz]

He was injured by accident, and no-one has him as a top suspect right now.

[The Fonz]

He was injured by accident, and no-one has him as a top suspect right now.

translation: he was injured by malicious scum pretending not to know drench had been replaced

the fact that dgb is trying to stop him from getting healed is telling

Pretending?

[The Fonz]

I think hurting Rofl equally with the unsupported hurt he dishes out is the best deterrent.

[The Fonz]

Guys, vote for Seraphim. I'm going to vote for him. If you both do, he's in the runoff, at least.

[The Fonz]

Xyl hurt Drench before he was replaced, for lurking. Which is a perfectly valid reason.

THe mistake ones where when i asked who was lurking, Seraphim said Drench, I looked up Drench's posts and agreed, then we both hurt Drench, not realising he'd been replaced.

[The Fonz]

Tajo, Rofl has a point. It's too easy to dismiss the words of dead town by saying they were idiots or omgussing or whatever. They were still town. THey don't count as supports because dead people can't vote, but nonetheless...

[The Fonz]

Well, if we're voting, i have time. If not, i'm gonna hurt seraphim, counting ABR and Rofl as support.

[The Fonz]

Towns in general are too fast to dismiss dead townies as idiots.

[The Fonz]

Is it just me, or do we have something approaching a consensus on seraphim?

[The Fonz]

SINCE WHEN BEING TOWN MEANS BEING RIGHT?

It means having no ulterior motive for what they're saying.

[The Fonz]

Thing is, Tajo, we've only really got you, me and DGB agreed to them. It doesn't matter how fast a system works if we have to argue for four days about it before it's even implemented.

[The Fonz]

Thing is, Tajo, we've only really got you, me and DGB agreed to them. It doesn't matter how fast a system works if we have to argue for four days about it before it's even implemented.

I have support for many players that havent read the strategy yet.
I think it should be implemented before DAMAGE ANARCHY starts again.
Oh, you were against it, riight?

Say what you like, but a group of four people who have the same top suspect masshurting him is not damage anarchy.

[The Fonz]

Is WLC dead yet, btw?

[The Fonz]

Tajo... given that you called Shinnen obvscum in retrospect, why did you not hurt her?

[The Fonz]

People. Kill WLC.

[The Fonz]

Hmm.

WEYOUNSLASTCLONE needs to die before we do ANYTHING else.

[The Fonz]

Tenchi, you are charged.

WE KILL WLC BEFORE WE DO ANYTHING ELSE, GET IT?

[The Fonz]

Who fucking made you returning officer, Tajo?

[The Fonz]

Guys, dont miss the fact that there has to be a scum between rolf and Nuwen. We should take care of this today not when its too late.

NEWSFLASH - THERE DOES NOT IN FACT

HAVE

TO BE SCUM BETWEEN US. 3-1 IS AS REASONABLE A SETUP AS 2-2. USING THIS AS EVIDENCE TO GET ME KILLED IS BOGUS.

So long as neither is hurt, they balance each other out. There's no rush to kill either until we're sure which one is scum. Btw i'm pretty confident it's nuwen, not rofl.

[The Fonz]

Guys, dont miss the fact that there has to be a scum between rolf and Nuwen. We should take care of this today not when its too late.

NEWSFLASH - THERE DOES NOT IN FACT

HAVE

TO BE SCUM BETWEEN US. 3-1 IS AS REASONABLE A SETUP AS 2-2. USING THIS AS EVIDENCE TO GET ME KILLED IS BOGUS.

So Nuwen is scum WHY?

Killed an obvtown player without any support?

[The Fonz]

Guys, can we stop this bickering a second to note that Tenchi is clearly and deliberately stalling the game by not killing WLC despite being charged.

[The Fonz]

Guys, dont miss the fact that there has to be a scum between rolf and Nuwen. We should take care of this today not when its too late.

NEWSFLASH - THERE DOES NOT IN FACT

HAVE

TO BE SCUM BETWEEN US. 3-1 IS AS REASONABLE A SETUP AS 2-2. USING THIS AS EVIDENCE TO GET ME KILLED IS BOGUS.

So Nuwen is scum WHY?

Killed an obvtown player without any support?

why didnt she use rage instead of doing an obvious retarded play as scum?
i think that she had to prove the 2-2 idea. she only took a bad decision.

It's only retarded if you don't get away with it. She got away with it, therefore...

[The Fonz]

KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE KILL WEYOUNSLASTCLONE!

[The Fonz]

I will vote only once, for Seraphim.

[The Fonz]

Uh, because he's really scummy?

[The Fonz]

Shinnen was scummy.

[The Fonz]

Shinnen was scummy.

she was obv scummy. gimme somethin new.

Defended Shinnen for a long time, then did a complete 180 on here when she looked like she was going to die. You yourself said you thought there were bussers on that wagon, and he looks most like a bus. Tacitly supported Shinnen's attacks on Rofl and Viq.

Supported three dead town wagons in Juls, WWB and Hoopla, and pushed the latter as a counterwagon to Shinnen.

[The Fonz]

Hmmm. Giuseppe is a good spot, actually. Not as good as Seraphim, though.

[The Fonz]

q21, zwet and tajo have been ignoring each other all game.

Couldn't be less true. q21 has been on a one-man campaign to kill Zwet.

[The Fonz]

Hm, what?

You're kinda doing that whole under the radar thing.

[The Fonz]

Tajo. Of the four townies who were wagoned all the way to death (excepting Kinetic, who was finished by rage) Seraphim is on every one.

[The Fonz]

Guys.

Roflcopter is obvobvobvtown.

[The Fonz]

Looks like we'll have outright majorities for both Seraphim and ABR.

I really don't see the Albert case, tbh.

[The Fonz]

Btw Zwet, your accusing me of misrepping is REALLY PISSING ME OFF.

I misrepresented nothing.

[The Fonz]

So ABR and Seraphim BOTH have precisely half the town calling for their heads.

[The Fonz]

Actually, given that with only two not voting, there's no way anyone can catch ABR and Seraph, should we just start the runoff?

[The Fonz]

I'm actually terribly worried that the town will lose like the first game, which the town lost because they killed people who 'broke the rules' and opposed the voting system, rather than scum.

[The Fonz]

oh yes

Vote: Seraphim

[The Fonz]

Dude... notice how we're doing a different system now? That doesn't need enforcing so much.

Frankly, and i think you've set this up deliberately, we're kind of faced with the choice of killing you, or letting you do what you want. And it's pretty close.

[The Fonz]

Hey Rofl, killing scum would be a good idea for you, too.

[The Fonz]

Once again, I will offer my opinions on any player if anyone cares to ask.

*Headdesk*

What is your opinion on

every single player in the game?

Who could be scum together? Who can't?

[The Fonz]

I'm actually terribly worried that the town will lose like the first game, which the town lost because they killed people who 'broke the rules' and opposed the voting system, rather than scum.

People who are dead are not dead beacuse they were agaisnt the voting systeme. Some or dead (and some close to) because of disorganized damage.
Now are you saying that you are scared of killing rolf?

I don't want to kill him, because he's obvtown.

I don't mean this game. Check out the last game, where the town lost not because of 'disorganized damage' but because the people doing it were town, and the rest of the town went along with the scum in killing them for it.

[The Fonz]

Did I read that straight?

I say 'the town lost because it killed (town) players similar to rofl who opposed the voting system.' (And because of the voting system itself, which meant things took too long). Town didn't lose that game because it was trigger happy- it lost because it didn't kill scum fast enough.

You say 'isn't that a reason to kill people who oppose the voting system?'

[The Fonz]

THing is, tajo, that kind of thing is incredibly easy to fake.

Has anyone else got this vision of one of the circle of wellknown and vocal players kinda being a Mr. Big, and giving orders to his underlings through the quicktopic?

[The Fonz]

Let me get this straight, there are virtually unassailable numbers of votes on two players and we aren't going to kill them straight away? I thought people were against stalling the game.

We need to decide

which of them

to kill.

[The Fonz]

Scum used and hid behind the pacific faction to eliminate the aggressive ones, who were town.

[The Fonz]

viqles is an odd choice. why now?

He's an Ophan. He didn't say who he was following. The only way to guarantee not getting caught in the act by him is to make him the one who dies.

[The Fonz]

I am going to use my hurt on Tenchi. My death is imminent and I will use my hurt on who I think is scum.

I am Loyal Cherubim. If this is my last post before I die, good luck, town.

Seraphim, heal rage damage. If we decide to kill Tenchi, we can masshurt, so your hurt won't get him dead any faster.

[The Fonz]

Major suspect to who? dgb? you?

YEAH YOU GET THE PICTURE.

Me, actually. Every post seemed to get scummier.

And first of all, we have no idea if a Metatron is a bodyguard. So dont assume things that are not obvious.
Seraphim has to be scum.

Explain why. (My brain isn't really working right now).

[The Fonz]

THe question is rofl, do you advocate leaving Seraphim alive for as long as it will take to kill DGb, when we could bump him off pretty much now?

Actually, screw it. Here comes the bloodthirst.

Seraphim: I suppose you expect me to talk?
Fonz: No, Mr Seraphim. I expect you to die.

Hurt: Serpahim

[The Fonz]

I do agree, incidentally that DGB is the most obvscum. Hurting just before the last rage dump, for instance. (Or did she heal? That would be even worse).

[The Fonz]

Which means our next kills match up, and we can kill DGB together.

[The Fonz]

I do agree, incidentally that DGB is the most obvscum. Hurting just before the last rage dump, for instance. (Or did she heal? That would be even worse).

Stop smocking crack, Fonzie, I'm not hurting or healing anyone, and haven't for some time. Iammmawatchin' iz whatammmadoin'. Seriously, scum, are you reading?

When i said last, i actually meant first. Typo.

============================

Fonzie is totally not paying attention. He's not the careful, thoughtful Fonzie I know. But townies beware, Fonzie's specialty is to make it to end game. I cannot pin him down. But his conclusions are wrong.

Lol, when? I've made it to endgame twice in two years on the site.

[The Fonz]

Oh, before I forget, the moment i decided Xyl was scum was when he said he'd lie low until scum stopped following him. I'm pretty confident town Xyl would NEVER do that.

[The Fonz]

i'd rather xyl and dgb die before seraphim

oh yeah? you think seraphim is town?

I'd say it's more a case of probabilities. Xyl and DGB look obvscum, whilst Seraphim is merely very likely.

[The Fonz]

i'd rather xyl and dgb die before seraphim

oh yeah? you think seraphim is town?

I'd say it's more a case of probabilities. Xyl and DGB look obvscum, whilst Seraphim is merely very likely.

Yeah, but if DGB and Xyl are scum, Seraphim

has

to be scum with them.

Again, why is it so open and shut?

[The Fonz]

We have. This feels like a Xyl-orchestrated effort, from top to bottom.

[The Fonz]

What i see is that DGB, Xyl and giuseppe were on both.

[The Fonz]

Oh, before I forget, the moment i decided Xyl was scum was when he said he'd lie low until scum stopped following him. I'm pretty confident town Xyl would NEVER do that.

i've pointed out a number of things town xyl would never do this game

I didn't necessarily agree...

[The Fonz]

But of course, Xyl.

If you were scum, the game would have gone

totally

differently to how it did. Really.

[The Fonz]

Stalking? Lol. You turned up, and started arguing the positions i've been fighting for the last year, just better. It's not me who's stalking.

[The Fonz]

But what does that do to the rest of the suspicions? If Seraphim flips town, no matter how unlikely it is, what happens to all of this discussion?

Rockets you to near the top of my scumlist.

[The Fonz]

See my earlier post about DGB, Xyl,

and Giuseppe.

Plus, slap bang in the middle of the pack.

[The Fonz]

And you remember when I posted this?

tajo, you need all these flips to determine what exactly? that when tenchi and i are dead the scum will win?

no.
If seraphim is lynched and he comes up town then I can semiconfirm xyl as town and semiconfirm you as scum.

WHAT!?

[The Fonz]

So there being one dead town on each side would make you sure which of the other two is town?

[The Fonz]

FUCK.

[The Fonz]

If a town player dies during the 'day' it's probably game over.

How the bleeping hell were WLC, Tenchi, and Seraphim (ie the keep a low profile, not build cases and hurt town brothers) all town themselves?

[The Fonz]

He just hurt so many town players. It didn't seem possible.

[The Fonz]

Just for the record. Fonz, rolf and Firestarter, if you are scum you just won this game.

Well, you can rule that one out, then.

[The Fonz]

DGB first. I'm starting to get waking nightmares of a DGB-ABR distance fest.

[The Fonz]

Guys, stop and take a step back.

Considering everyone bashed Rofl repeatedly for his 'singlehandedly' taking Kinetic down to rage range, how do you feel about q21 actually singlehandedly taking Zwet into rage range?

I re-read myself, and realised i once had q21 as scum, and can't remember why i dropped it. Zwet flipping town reflects a lot on him, and no-one commenting on it makes me more suspicious.

[The Fonz]

Guys, btw. We need to keep rofl and nuwen around for now as hedges against each other.

[The Fonz]

Shit shit shit. Why did I realise that Xyl's alignment depended entirely on DGB's, and that killing him whilst she lived was monumentally ridiculous, AFTER i left the house this morning?

DGB, what's your surprise re: q21?

[The Fonz]

Zwet: 3 q21 hurts, one seraphim.

Xyl was hurt by Juls, Zwet, Waltwishbone, and Tenchi in addition to roflcopter twice.

Anything to add?

Hurt: q21

[The Fonz]

Nuwen, i know, but everyone seemed to have forgotten in the rush to hurt q21. Or maybe they were just scum. Like in Lost Boys, when everyone knew MoS was acting scummy, but enough of the town was demoralised and defeated to hand the game over.

[The Fonz]

now.
OR
Fonz has been playing us all game and that I should wait until tomorrow, hurt him and then finish him. Especially after his reasonless hurt on me.

Reasonless? You basically singlehandedly killed an Ophan. And have played UTR. And no other fucker seems to have even look at you. That spells scum. And right now, if the town doesn't kill scum AND soon, it's fucked. That's why i hurt you.

[The Fonz]

How the fuck have I played UTR? Have you read a fucking thing i've said?

[The Fonz]

Also, if you want unreasoned, look at q21 himself.

[The Fonz]

Re Q21's claim:

We don't need to believe or disbelieve it. Henceforth, the town control Q21's zeal points.

Uh, dude... If HE HAS zeal points, he has to be telling the truth.

If his claim is a complex scum gambit to explain his actions under DGB's watch, then we're actually controlling rage points - this is double plus good. I doubt his claim comes from scum; we've already decided that

town

needed a setup boost, not scum.

What I would suggest is that this being true makes a 2-2 seraph distribution FAR more likely.

There are clear factions forming right now. Players from each camp will be selecting targets for Q21, to reduce the risk of one scum-controlled faction gaining extra damage.

Did you notice the pattern of this game at all? IE, every time factions coalesce the town members of each die?

Frankly, all other things being equal, q21 still feels like scum to me. But if his claim is untrue, we're likely fucked anyway. So I'll roll with it, and ask him to try to look at my play unclouded by the self-defence instinct, and note that my play basically comes down to three cases I pushed seriously: Shinnen, Seraphim, and himself. (I was willing to plant the flag, and try to get rid of 'obvscum' q21 as a last desperate gamble to save the town. So sue me). I also hurt WLC to enforce 'no hurting without support.'

How is that 'insidious?' I've been front and centre.

This is something I never though I'd say... but DGB's basically the one player in this game who hasn't been consistently wrong.

[The Fonz]

Summary of Fonz case: Of all three players, one of the most obvious bus'ers, on account of his overly strong accusations based on extremely weak evidence, followed by bickering to get his share of town cred.

OK, DGB, firstly you're wrong, and secondly, here's the non-subjective reason for why. You're claiming that me, ABR, and Rofl are ALL scum. If we're all scum- why do we get into an argument in-thread that's completely pointless? Here's what I actually did.

Did my happy dance. Meaningless, lighthearted statement, expressing my happiness at being proved right. I always attack the scummiest player in the game strongly, you know. How is it an obvious bus, to be FIRST on the wagon, never waver, and never consider any counterwagons?

Then I defended Albert on the grounds that his support for me is what made the wagon a wagon. This is true. If he doesn't support me, there's no wagon- I'm a lone voice in the wilderness calling for the scumlynch. THEN rofl accuses 'Fonz and Albert' of 'trying to take credit' which wasn't the scenario at all. One joke, and one defence of Albert based on the notion that he was in a position on the wagon unlikely to be occupied by a busser (this is further shown by my suspicion of Seraphim, who very much DID look like a busser).

Defends ABR against WLC-town with ridicule.
.

What do you mean?

[The Fonz]

Summary of case against q21:

'Page 24: Joins in late on the Shinnen bus." was all I got. I have mental notes that q21 was distancing heavily from ABR/copter.

Conclusion: I hope to be able to confirm his claim.

With little support, took town-zwet into range to be killed with a handful of rage points.

Middle of the pack, playing so as not to stand out.

[The Fonz]

What I would suggest is that this being true makes a 2-2 seraph distribution FAR more likely.

My beef with this is that it would be like shooting fish in a barrel. Flay has done this setup in smaller format before. Would he paint the scum with obvious targets?

How many Seraphs are there? Four? We kill all four at game start, bang-bang-bang-bang and we hit 2 scum?

That assumes we massclaim at start. And people were quite willing to make the 3-1 case- in fact, people were acting like the one dead Seraph confirmed the rest.

[The Fonz]

Defends ABR against WLC-town with ridicule.
.

You shut him up by implying that WLC just didn't like ABR's personality.

Here's the quote in question.

What I don’t like about ABR is

that he presents himself in a somewhat commanding tone. He gives directions to people. But he doesn’t necessarily follow that direction, and takes on a different direction himself. He also uses special text with his ‘hurt’, which is something that I absolutely don’t trust.

his personality.

Edited for clarity.

My point here is 'commanding tone' and being erratic (ie 'takes on a different direction himself') are just features of Albert's general play, so not good reasons to suspect him, and special text is just a ridiculous reason to attack someone.

I defended ABR early on. I did. Later on I was completely at a loss as to what to think, but had players i thought were obvscum (Seraphim) to go for first.

[The Fonz]

Summary of case against q21:

'Page 24: Joins in late on the Shinnen bus." was all I got. I have mental notes that q21 was distancing heavily from ABR/copter.

Conclusion: I hope to be able to confirm his claim.

With little support, took town-zwet into range to be killed with a handful of rage points.

Middle of the pack, playing so as not to stand out.

True. Agreed. Please add to case.

I'm not going to, because see above: if q21 is scum, the town is screwed anyway.

[The Fonz]

You gave your most recent hurt to q21, unsupported.

Please justify your thinking.

We were down to 9 alive, with likely four scum. Essentially, the town were in dire straits. I didn't think we had time to piss about with calling hurts, or voting, or any of that- i had to identify the most likely scum, and get killing him quickly, and hope that i'd be able to drag the remnants of the town with me.

[The Fonz]

We were down to 9 alive, with likely four scum. Essentially, the town were in dire straits. I didn't think we had time to piss about with calling hurts, or voting, or any of that- i had to identify the most likely scum, and get killing him quickly, and hope that i'd be able to drag the remnants of the town with me.

That would be easier to believe if you had made a serious CASE against q21. Instead, it looks like you're ignoring the big obvscums that have pushed 10 townies in row to the slaughterhouse.

I did make a case. Middle of the pack. Singlehandedly killed an Ophan, and everyone completely ignored him. You don't need walls o' text to have a case. When players call one player (rofl) out for a certain type of behaviour, but everyone ignores another who's acted similarly, that's a strong associative tell.

In case you hadn't noticed, EVERYONE has hurt lots of townies. That's why ten town are dead.

[The Fonz]

I did make a case. Middle of the pack. Singlehandedly killed an Ophan, and everyone completely ignored him.

That's not exactly a slam dunk case.

You'd be surprised. It's the kind of combination that screams scum to me.

When players call one player (rofl) out for a certain type of behaviour, but everyone ignores another who's acted similarly, that's a strong associative tell.

Are you seriously comparing q21 to roflcopter, and finding q21 scummier?[/quote]

In isolation, maybe not. (That said, rofl gives the impression of someone who is too emotionally invested to be scum, and is playing precisely in keeping with his town meta). But plenty of people are willing to gun for rofl; no-one has said a word against q21.

In case you hadn't noticed, EVERYONE has hurt lots of townies. That's why ten town are dead.

And who has been most influential in encouraging players to take these townies to the guillotine? Please answer this question, it's not rhetorical.[/quote]

Well, it was seraphim. And Xyl. Different people have been pushing different town wagons, though.

[The Fonz]

Tajo-

learn to read.

kthanxbai

[The Fonz]

Hurt: ABR

Oh Goofball, my Goofball!

[The Fonz]

Read the bit much earlier, when i state i'm going to hurt in the style of a particular movie. Previously, Bill and Ted, and James Bond... this time, Dead Poets' Society.