Prisoner's Dilemma Mafia II {Game Over!}

[Percy]

/confirm!

[Percy]

"Send two townish people, and demand that they say "no" to the question so they get powers."

I think this is the most sensible approach, but we will have to talk about what powers they select and who they use them on as well.

We should take as much control over the sending process as we can. Whilst there are some things we cannot predict, we should try and get the most out of it. As we control what powers people get and who they use them on, the risk of us sending a scumplayer is greatly reduced - they will be put in a restricted and stressful position, as if they do anything with their powers other than what we decide, we lynch them.

Let's get 3 DKs and 3 Protects, shall we? Basically gives us lynches and protection. Investigate doesn't seem as attractive.

Send: Kublai Khan
Send: Plum

- mild town vibes for each of them.

[Percy]

I thought Daykills and Protects were better than Investigates as they remove the 'middle man'.

Daykills we use as lynches, and the towniest looking people get protection out of those not on their way to jail. If the protection fails or the daykill is used on someone else or not used at all, we lynch that person.

Investigate will give us information which will help us confirm scum before we lynch/DK them. I have no idea whether knowing the "results" will make our decision any surer, given that it might come down to a judgement call between investigator and investigated.

If we can confirm that someone

chose

the investigate power, this would be a much better option.

[Percy]

If we attempt to send scum, Albert, then I'm sure you would mandate an answer of "yes yes".

If we're good at finding scum, then we can almost turn the prisoner's dilemma into a semi-random lynch, with the possible exception of: we send two scum and they say "no", and they then take out two townies with DKs. No-one has a reason to vote "no" under this scheme - that's what the Prisoner's Dilemma is all about. So basically it turns into a slow lynching process

beholden to chance

, with the possibility of an explosive ending for some townies.

However, if we have good scumdetection, we surely must have good towndetection. We can gather more info to be more sure with 3 Investigates, and kill more often with the 3 DKs we pick up. Plum's plan is good, and I've come around on the Investigates. I think the investigator-against-investigated debate should be fairly clear if it does arise, and if it's not clear we still have at worst a one-town-for-one-scum swap. That's OK with me. Oh, and if scum clears scum, then from our end we can be pretty sure they're on the same side and can watch for scumteam behaviour later. We still scumhunt - we have to know who we're using our DKs on and why, and to review our progress.

I think we should just stick to sending rather than voting, though, and simply demand that people watch the sendcount - "I didn't know he was at S-1" is officially a scumtell.

So, here is the plan:
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
If you are about to get sent to prison, you will know what power you are to choose, having been decided upon by the town. Say "no" and choose this power. Use this power on the target of the town's choice the next day. Deviation from this plan will result in your death.

We will acquire 3 Investigates and 3 DKs tonight. Guilty Investigate targets will be DKed. An innocent corpse will result in Investigator being DKed.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Simple, really. Obey the town, and work towards a more directed and effective result that is

not

beholden to chance.

I support sending both the millers. That way, we can keep a close eye on them and give them an opportunity to prove themselves as town.

Unsend: Kublai Khan
Unsend: Plum

Send: Lowell
Send: SlySly

[Percy]

There are a lot of different plans floating around, so here's the list. I think I have the three broad ideas with their variations. Please read the various posts in this thread about how the Daykills, if acquired, will be used in plans 2 and 3.

Plan 1: Send the 6 scummiest looking players to prison. Demand they both say "yes".

Plan 2: Send the 6 towniest looking players to prison. Demand they both say "no". They then get
(A): 3 Investigates, 3 Daykills
(B): 4 Investigates, 2 Daykills
(C): 6 Investigates
(D): 6 Daykills

Plan 3: Send 2 scummy and 4 towny looking players to prison. Scummy looking pair answer "yes", townie looking pairs say "no". Townies acquire
(A): 2 Investigates, 2 Daykills
(B): 3 Investigates, 1 Daykill
(C): 4 Investigates
(D): 4 Daykills

To get around the problem Empking picked up on, we'll be counting numerals first - once there is a majority of one numeral's plan, then we can start voting which variation. So please keep in mind that you are now voting on our

Day 1 sending plan

rather than our

Day 2 action plan

.

This is not an exhaustive list of all possibilities, but it does seem to be a list of everything that people have been talking about recently. Please feel free to add Plan 4 or Variation E etc. if you want it considered.

Vote like this!

Plan: 2

I've already stated my reasons, and I honestly think we can do better than plan 1. I see plan 3 as a very viable compromise position (as it's sort of a lynch and power acquisition), but I'm still uncomfortable with the random way the kill happens and the possibility of getting

screwed

if we actually

succeed

and send two scum to prison.


Hope everyone has had good holidays

[Percy]

Sorry for the error in Plan 1. zach is right - Albert proposed sending the two scummiest looking players to prison.


Amended list:

Plan 1 -

2

scummiest
Plan 2 - 6 towniest
Plan 3 - 2 scummiest, 4 towniest


I also think that sending the two who have claimed miller as a pair would be a good idea.

6 Daykills is ridiculous, imo. We'd have to try and use them all tomorrow, and I would be surprised if that turned out well. Better to go with some investigates.

If we do go with Plan 3, then I agree that sending the scumpair last is the best idea.


Albert, there's no question that plans 2 and 3 are riskier than the slow-as-possible, minimalist plan 1. However, I don't share your confidence that our powers and numbers will outlast the mafia. We don't know what abilities are floating around,

if any

. I think the possibility that the town have no powers to begin with shouldn't be discounted, given that 6 people can be sent to prison per day to acquire them.

Basically, there are too many unknowns, and so we should try to gather as much intel as fast as possible, rather than wait and hope the game balance is in our favour.

[Percy]

Plan Votecount

(3)

Plan 1 - Albert, Goofball?, freeko?

(7)

Plan 2 - Percy, Empking, hp[leaves], Counselwolf, Plum, Narsis, RossWilliam?

(3)

Plan 3 - Kublai, zach, ortolan

(12)

No Planvotes: Seraphim, The Central Scrutinizer, SlySly, doctor no, Moratorium, Stephoscope, Lowell, Tuberkulos, detspeed, Ectomancer, solorpg, Vel-Rahn Koon

Please vote on a plan so we can start executing it, guys.



I'm calling out the following:
Stephoscope, Tuberkulos, Ectomancer, hp [leaves], doctor no, The Central Scrutinizer -

Low activity, little contribution

Seraphim, The Central Scrutinizer, SlySly, doctor no, Vel-Rahn Koon -

No posts for at least 5 days

Moratorium, detspeed (being replaced) -

NO POSTS

I know it's the holidays, but let no scum use them as an excuse to get away with lurking!



The more I think about it, the more I like the "sending of the millers/no-no/investigate-DK combo" plan. The best way to deal with millers is to keep them under pressure, under scrutiny, and lynch if they act scummy. This is the best way to do it, and we can get some solid info or even dead scum while we're at it.


freeko, hmm... He's certainly pinging my scumdar, and others have taken pains to point out his many mistakes. However, I have a sneaking suspicion that he just needs a cup of tea and a contemplative, thorough re-read (rules included). His attacks swing wildly and are often based on inaccurate readings. This type of behaviour are often good scumtells, but I just can't see any method in this madness. I'd

much

rather get an investigate on freeko and kill him if he's guilty with a dayvig.

@freeko: you say you're playing scared and want to collect info. Well, let's collect info by going with Plan 2. I know the scum almost certainly will have powers to screw with things, but if we force them to use them all now, so much the better. We should try and take control of this situation, rather than playing low-risk until we die of our own panic and confusion.




Plan 1 is too weak, and just ignores the millers. Plan 3 might be OK, but we have to find two scummish looking players (or at least someone to pair with freeko) and hope we're right. Plan 2 gets us the most info, and we can therefore dispose of scum more effectively.

[Percy]

Plan Votecount

(3)

Plan 1 - Albert, Goofball?, freeko?

(9.5)

Plan 2 - Percy, Empking, hp[leaves], Counselwolf, Plum, Narsis, RossWilliam, doctor no, Stephoscope, ortolan (.5),

(2.5)

Plan 3 - Kublai, zach, ortolan(.5)

(10)

No Planvotes: Seraphim, The Central Scrutinizer, Moratorium (no posts still), Tuberkulos (being replaced), detspeed (being replaced), Ectomancer, solorpg, Vel-Rahn Koon, Lowell, SlySly



It seems that most people are happy with sending the millers, which means we're probably not looking at plan 1. We've got 13 people willing to go for plan 2 or plan 3. With two (possibly three) people waiting for replacements, let's just get on with figuring out whether to send a scumpair and what powers to give them.

Which means sending:

Miller Pair
Town Pair
Third Pair - Scum or Town?

Now we start the new voting. Start voting the combinations, summarised again here:

Plan 2: Send the 6 towniest looking players to prison. Demand they both say "no". They then get
(A): 3 Investigates, 3 Daykills
(B): 4 Investigates, 2 Daykills
(C): 6 Investigates
(D): 6 Daykills
(E): 5 Investigates, 1 Daykill

Plan 3: Send 2 scummy and 4 towny looking players to prison. Scummy looking pair answer "yes", townie looking pairs say "no". Townies acquire
(A): 2 Investigates, 2 Daykills
(B): 3 Investigates, 1 Daykill
(C): 4 Investigates
(D): 4 Daykills


Personally, I'm down with

Plan 2B

.

[Percy]

I'm starting to think that we should try and finish this day off sooner rather than later. We need to start actually hunting scum with the info we gather, and waiting 30 days is just not going to get us anywhere without powers. People will lose interest, and it'll be harder to tell lurkers from inactives.

Lurkers:
Moratorium, The Central Scrutinizer, Seraphim, Ectomancer,
and to a lesser extent,
hp[leaves], solorpg



Hi new people!!

Mod:- Moratorium probably needs replacing too, and please prod TCS and Seraphim

-=-=-=-=-=-

Lowell: Dayvig
SlySly: Day Cop

Great, let's do that.

@Those advocating sending scum: Is there anyone you'd be willing to send right now? Why?

[Percy]

Also, I'm not going to be posting tomorrow due to NYE celebrations. Hope everyone enjoys themselves!

I get a big townread from Albert, even though I disagree with his plans. I also get good vibes from Plum.

Send: Albert
Send: Plum

[Percy]

Sorry, Ectomancer, but I have no idea why you want to be sent to prison, why you want to go with freeko or what you're going to do while you're there. If you hide all your reasoning and information then you're not going to get my vote. Converse with the town, contribute and read the rules. It's

really

not complicated.

freeko and Ecto are both hiding from the town, and are playing selfishly rather than collectively. There have been some good PBPA's on freeko, and I'm really not happy with simply dismissing him as 'silly'.

If we send them both to prison, then we could insist they both say "Yes 100%", or get dayvigged the next day. However, the chances of one or both of them grabbing a self-protect are high enough that we could end up with wasted time, wasted resources and no good info.

Ecto and freeko are scummish, freeko more than Ecto. We should investigate each of them tomorrow. Why should we risk our plans just because Ecto and freeko want to have a crack at it themselves with their secret plans and secret suspicions? No thank you.

Keep things open and collective. We get the most possible information, power and control this way. Ignore those who want to derail things just when we're about to reach consensus

without stating why

.

[Percy]

I called out Steph for being a lurker, because she wasn't saying anything. I called out many people, actually. Was I bussing half the players in the game, or only the one that flipped scum?

Goofball sent freeko and Ecto because they seemed the scummiest to both her and enough of the town. We lost two townies. Her random sending of Steph was a fluke. Why do people still think we should be sending scum when there are far better alternatives?

I believe Goofball to be town, but I think we should concentrate on the info gathering now. With freeko and Ecto gone, let's try and send townies to get info first, yes? We really, really shouldn't be risking townies lives again today. Let's get 4 Investigates and 2 DKs, get information and start scumhunting rather than going off our guts today.

Normally, lynching someone on day 1 is not going to get you mafia, but it will get you information on who contributed to the wagon and why. In this game, we're generating the same sort of information on day 1 (through who thinks who is town, planvoting etc), but we don't need to risk a townie death. We'll get

even more

info tomorrow when the

four

investigate results come through.

to be honest, the flips of Freeko and Ecto make me feel less comfortable with the assumption that town will likely manage to send a pair with even one scum.

QFT.

DG, was this one-shot?

I'd like to keep the scum guessing.

I don't like this question.

QFT. But your 'Most of us think 6 townies is a crap plan' is quite wrong.


Plan 2: Send the 6 towniest looking players to prison. Demand they both say "no". They then get
(A): 3 Investigates, 3 Daykills
(B): 4 Investigates, 2 Daykills
(C): 6 Investigates
(D): 6 Daykills
(E): 5 Investigates, 1 Daykill

Plan 3: Send 2 scummy and 4 towny looking players to prison. Scummy looking pair answer "yes", townie looking pairs say "no". Townies acquire
(A): 2 Investigates, 2 Daykills
(B): 3 Investigates, 1 Daykill
(C): 4 Investigates
(D): 4 Daykills

Plan Votecount

(10)

Plan 2 - Percy (B), hp[leaves], Counselwolf (B), Plum (B), Narsis (B), RossWilliam (E), doctor no (B), ortolan (B), Abstract Actuary (B), Moratorium

(4)

Plan 3 - Kublai, zach, Vel-Rahn Koon (2 scum 2 town only), The Central Scrutinizer

(6)

No Planvotes: Seraphim (being replaced), killa seven, solorpg (waiting until after two more townies are sent?), Empking (voting for end of day - perhaps in error), Albert, Goofball

Empking was voting plan 2. Considering mod clarification, it would not be ridiculous to assume that we're looking at a majority of people voting for plan 2.

We have 14 players currently saying "we should send another town pair", so let's get around to doing that, at least.

[Percy]

Let's just get 4 investigates + 2 daykills and use one of the investigates on him.

I still like Plan 3, but whichever plan you want just vote for your townies now so they'll go in.

I felt that these were contradictory, so went with the one where you said "Let's do this" rather than the "I like that".

Also, Albert, Plan 1 is dead. We cannot do it, it is impossible. Vel-Rahn Koon's plan, however, I've put under plan 3 - is that what you mean?

Anyway, here's the final plancount.

Plan Votecount

(1)

Plan 1(?) - Albert

(11)

Plan 2 - Percy (B), hp[leaves], Counselwolf (B), Plum (B), Narsis (B), RossWilliam (E), doctor no (B), ortolan (B), Abstract Actuary (B), Moratorium, Empking

(5)

Plan 3 - Kublai, zach, Vel-Rahn Koon (2 scum 2 town only), The Central Scrutinizer, solorpg

(3)

No Planvotes: Seraphim (being replaced), killa seven, Goofball



My list of townies and scum is being compiled, I'll have it up tonight when I get back from work.

[Percy]

I've spent a lot of time thinking about our plans. I have come to the conclusion (again) that Plan 2 is optimal play, and anything other than that is reacting to unknown forces which can be massaged into whatever people like.

The scum have interference powers, and they'll use them - I can't think of why sending 4 townies and 2 scum is any

safer

than sending 6 townies, especially since there are so many problems with the scum/scum pair, and everyone seems to be assuming that we won't be sending scum on the first night anyway.

The scummy pair is actually best if it's one town and one scum. Town/town is horrible, especially if one of them decides to save their innocent butts and we have to hunt them down as scum. Scum/scum is potentially disastrous, but I can't see a scenario that's worse than a 2 scum, 2 townie swap, except for potential bussing, perhaps? I don't know.

The point is that sending one town and one scum is good, sending two town is horrible, and sending two scum is kinda meh. Ecto and freeko are already dead, and we have basically no info. Stephoscope died by accident. Conclusion: use the PD for getting power and information, and use the powers obtained to help us hunt scum. Those who say "I know MM will have something to dick with the setup" - how do you know? Oh sure, you'll use weasel words like "I'm pretty sure" or "suspect", but Plan 3 is just as uncertain as Plan 2 in both the risks that it presents and the possible benefits.

Most mafia games I'm in have had mostly town lynches, and the scum only come out towards the end. Why are we willing to send two people to their deaths, potentially killing

two townies per day

on top of the night kill, when the option is present to make our decisions based on more information?

Plan 3 advocates are trying to tell us that it's more of an incentive to scumhunt, or that it's more of a threat - we'll still have two dayvigs if we follow plan 2, and we'll have investigation data to pour over. It'll make our scumhunting better, and we won't be killing more people through ignorance and fear. It has the added benefit of giving us the power to police our plans, which the variation of send only two more scum does NOT give us (recently advocated by VRK and Moratorium). I also don't really see why scumhunting is inherently

better

than townhunting - also, can't we do both?



Stop complaining about how we're not playing "real mafia". Goddamn. Who cares whether this is "like other games" or not? Why is it good to try and mash this game into "just like regular mafia but with a mild twist"? It's entirely possible that this new game requires a new strategy. Anyone who can't stop moaning about how we're not playing this game right because it's new and different is both 1) trusting their own abilities to play 'regular' mafia (well, of course they are, they're

awesome

), implicitly assuming that the skills required for this new game and plan are radically different and 2) attempting to get out of really tackling strategy here, taking the tl;dr approach and trying to paint those that actually care about this game as distracting and scummish. If you want to play regular mafia, why the hell did you sign up for this game?

Plan 2 is the optimal strategy. Plan 3 is pretty good, and if everyone else wants plan 3, then that's OK with me I guess. Just make good arguments for it, rather than assuming that Plan 3 will be better at finding scum because it involves sending scum to prison right away. It's like an old person thinking that real mail is better than email because it arrives in an envelope,

just like it always did

, and this new stuff is all weird and frankly they don't want to bother with all this guff.

I've been asked for my scumlist and townlist, so I did a big reread. I've also looked at the plancount, and really, I just made an honest mistake with ortolan, sorry dude. I even put in the post where I mentioned my final votecount about acknowledging my mistake, then didn't fix it. So my apologies. Here it is.

(1)

Plan 1(?) - Albert

(8.5)

Plan 2 - Percy (B), Counselwolf (B), Plum (B), Narsis (B), RossWilliam (E), doctor no (B), Abstract Actuary (B), Empking, hp[leaves] (0.5),

(7.5)

Plan 3 - Kublai(A), zach, Vel-Rahn Koon (2 scum 2 town only), Moratorium (2 scum 2 town only), The Central Scrutinizer, solorpg, hp[leaves] (0.5), ortolan (B)

(3)

No Planvotes: Seraphim (being replaced), killa seven, Goofball

I'm not trying to misrep anyone, This is not just a case of reading the green bold entries (even though I still managed to screw that up). Take TCS's last post - should I take that as an unvote for a plan? Am I actively misrepping plan 3 to make it appear inflated? Should I leave hp's vote for plan 2 because they didn't actively unplanvote? The debate is not over, and I really have no interest in adopting a plan and saying "NAH BUT YOU VOTED SO WE'RE DOING THIS PLAN STFU", and I'm sorry I gave that impression. Both plan 2 and plan 3 will only work if we have everyone on board, and that's all there is to it.


I want to make something clear - we were all voting for two townies to be sent, and now others are trying to send a scumpair. It's confusing, and needs to stop. I'm going to

Unsend - both

and do the right thing - vote for my sends unofficially, say what I want and why I want it, and allow those who will be sent to have a say in what happens all the way to the end of the day rather than silencing them now.


I've been asked for a scumlist and a townlist. I did a complete reread of this thread, and here's the stuff I found particularly interesting.


I feel that RossWilliam has been making contributions, but nothing really substantial. He's been actively lurking, which I find more scummy than actual lurking, because it often is designed to distract. Consider these posts:

Albert has a point....it's extremely naive to think that people are gonna be controlled, and even 100% percent town people are gonna act rashly and sometimes on their own. I think any plans relying entirely on controlling people need to be taken with a grain of salt....maybe we should still go through with them, but not depend on them

This seems sensible, but it's also incredibly ambiguous. Does he want a plan? Does he like ABR's reasoning? How does this affect the plan choices - are we going to try and pick a more tamper-proof plan? The next post is this:

What about getting 5 investigates and just one daykill? At least for early in the game? The chances are slim for finding scum so with five investigates you'll still probably only find one scum and then he/she can be killed.....your probably not gonna need more than one vigkill in the early game

I don't see how this follows on from the previous post. Dayvigs are much easier to control and Dayvestigates. He also previously expressed a desire to follow plan 3, and called Plum's plan the best of the 6 townie plans. Does he believe this 5-1 plan to be better than the other two? Or is he just 'putting it out there'?

None of you other players really stand out as super town or super scum to me....it's hard on the first day.

Sure it's hard, but I don't see any attempts on your part to generate information.
Instead, he throws up his hands and asks for the end of the day, only to retract it when no-one even pays any attention to it. I can think of no reason at all why we should end the day with more than 2 weeks to go, no plan decided and two people in PD that may in fact be scum. There may be a reason, but "it's all too hard" sure isn't one of them.

He's playing it too safe. His latest post:

Or you can just use two investigates on him. I think it's better to waste an investigate then to kill a townie.

I think that it would be better to dayvig anyone who flipped scum due to an investigate right away. That way, we know whether investigates are a complete waste of time. Why be afraid of a Framer if none exists? If they flip town after getting a scum investigate, we can use the second investigate the investigator, or someone else entirely.

So, RossWilliam, please tell us what plan you like, why, and who you think is scum. I don't like this dancing around that you're doing.

The best thing to do is to send confirmed town and those we suspect are most likely to be town. We do this to gain more pro-town abilities, because Vigging will be the best way to dispatch of scum.

QFT. I know this was early in the game, but why are you voting for 3A now?

@Empking: Why are you so eager to do Plan 2? Posts like these:

1: 0
2: 5
3; 3

A: 1
B: 4
C: 0
D: 1
E: (5C 1V) : 1

Why are people working out how to the option three when its obviously not what the town wants us to do.

...make me feel very uncomfortable. When the votes are so close, and only 8 people out of

25

have voted, why are you so quick to silence dissent? What makes you so confident that Plan 2 is the winner here?

I am in favour of Plan 3 because I would be highly surprised if the mechanics of this game weren't designed to screw us up if we pursue an extension of exactly the same plan as was used in the original mini.

...so Plan 2 is better in theory, but the mod would know this, so would screw it up, so we should choose a plan that isn't optimal...? Smells like WIFOM. Let's just do the optimal plan. Also, see rant at top of this post. If you would care to explain to me how this isn't WIFOM, please go ahead.

Because I'm actually open to thinking about plan 3, though I feel like I want to sleep on that etc. Plan 3 seems predicated on being able to correctly identify at least one scum, and making sure both players in that PD pair have no motivation to do anything but yes+100%. At the same time, if two scum of one faction are PD paired, they absolutely don't have a motivation to do that. Might have a motivation for yes/no bussing strategy, very well might have a motivation for a no/no dayvig choice strategy. If on the other hand the players don't share a faction (one's mafia, one's another mafia faction, SK, townie, for instance), and they're told that the choice is yes+100% or get dayvigged - it should work, in theory. At the same time, plan 2 gives the town more overall power (if it's not messed with, but I'm also working with that assumption regarding plan 3, as it's easiest for comparison purposes) - more actual investigates and more post-investigate dayvigs - but at the same time there may be less motivation for scum to play the game we want them playing. If I've missed something/someone has something to say on these musings . . .

These are pretty much my feelings, but I can't see how Plan 3 makes the scum somehow more restricted, which is what Plum seems to be suggesting. Could you expand on this line of thought?

Narsis' defense of freeko basically boiled down to "he's not scum, he's just an ENORMOUS NOOB". In hindsight, he was probably right on most points. However, people who defend others rather than let them defend themselves scream scum to me. The scum know they're town, and know they're so dumb that they're attracting a whole lot of attention for being dumb. Chances are they're going to get themselves killed, and it will let you say "I told you so!". Which, hilariously enough, he did. Attempts to take the pressure off people (other than yourself) who are legitimately under investigation is a scumtell.

freeko and Ecto are both hiding from the town, and are playing selfishly rather than collectively. There have been some good PBPA's on freeko, and I'm really not happy with simply dismissing him as 'silly'.

How about now?

What does this question even mean? Am I meant to fall to the ground, beat my breast and rend my clothes with sorrow for keeping pressure on a bad player who made several glaring mistakes? Not fighting for the life of a player who strawmanned his way through not reading the game?

I'm willing to give town points to Plum and ortolan for their thorough analysis of freeko's posting. Both seemed to come up with different and original attacks, and neither seemed interested in starting a bandwagon.

Here's a mysterious post:

I dpon't think we should investigate Freeko.

Why? Just because he might be a Godfather, or might be framed? Why are you even voting plan 2 anyway?

Also, I must address this:

Just so you know, unless we get to a "I'm willing to let anyone go." position, I won't vote Percy. (gut)

Care to expand upon that?

On future days I think we will begin to send "scum pairs" into Prison with Yes/Yes instructions and also request more vigs from the town pairs, but I do think that the "scum pair" is going to be more problematic than we think.

If you're using the most recent midday results as evidence for the contrary, let's all examine what would have happened if the town had chosen that pair or if DrippingGoofball had been limited to just choosing two players. It would have resulted in two townie deaths and in this case neither would have gotten the chance to claim before being sent to their deaths.

Both of these are quoted for emphasis.

send: DrippingGoofball
send: Plum

Both gave me a consistent town vibe when I read through.

Can you be more specific about the town vibe you get from DGB? I know she's claimed a power without counterclaim and killed a scum, and that's pretty indestructible from where I'm sitting, but I'd still like to know what gave you that vibe. Also, why Plum, when she so clearly disagrees with your strategy?

- No one is scumhunting. Everyone's efforts is on "townhunting". We're wasting Day 1, typically the most active day, on hoping everything works out.

Why aren't you scumhunting? Don't blame everyone else, go and do it. More than that, why blame the setup? Yes, we might be sending 6 townies to prison, but we need to have targets for our dayvigs tomorrow.

I don't blame M-M for the setup, I blame the players for trying to break it. Myself included. And I don't really want to play "pretend I know the best plan" anymore, I want to scumhunt. What's going to happen Day 2, are we just going to play "Holy Crap, Night 1 was a clusterfuck, we need a Better Plan!" instead of scumhunting again?

How about this - you scumhunt, and leave the strategy up to everyone else?
Strategy is important in this game, and if you want no part in it, then that's OK I guess. But trying to make this game normal mafia and bemoaning the fact that no-one is playing normal mafia is really dumb. We've scumhunted plenty, and more will happen. Stop strawmanning.

Stop arguing with ABR.

Why are you defending ABR? Empking makes a good point - if ABR wants to claim that he's not wagonning based on his solid conviction stretching back through the game, the "why didn't you put your vote back on Narsis and continue investigating him?" question is worthy of being asked.

The more and more I think about this, the less win any of these plans seem. I think that we're best off trying to pair town-scum and just letting the players decide for themselves whether to yes or no... anyway, maybe I'm just being a distraction. Back in my hole.

If we pair town/scum with this plan, we'll get a lot of "yes/yes" votes. I can't imagine people voting otherwise - that's kinda the point of the Prisoner's Dilemma. Then we have a game that's kinda like regular mafia, but every mistake we make costs us two townies, and we have no powers, ever. We also lose the people we think are town that we send in with the scum - who would want to appear town? Everyone would want to be a creamy beige. This distraction is over.

Here's my list.
Scumreads:
RossWilliam - reasons as stated above
Narsis - reasons as stated above, as well as early skittishness
Empking - reasons as stated above, as well as the "just get 6 dayvigs" plan suggestion
Moratorium - bemoaning the lack of scumhunting without actually doing any of it, his serious lurk to begin with, and the "DGB - is your power one-shot" question.

Lurkers:
Seraphim - hasn't posted in three weeks
doctor no - hasn't posted in two weeks
killa seven - why did you even replace into this game?

Null reads:
The Central Scrutinizer
solorpg - perhaps an active lurker as well?
Albert B. Rampage - switched from a town read due to general unhelpfulness and refusal to talk strategy
hp[leaves]
Kublai Khan

Town reads:
DrippingGoofball - Claim.
ortolan
Plum
zachattack
CounselWolf
Abstract Actuary
Vel-Rahn Koon

SlySly and Lowell - both give me mildly townish reads. If they are millers, then I think both of them went about claiming well on the first day, which is why I was happy to entrust them with our plans. We'll see how it goes.


I'm going to do this. You should too.

Pair2 Townvote: Plum
Pair2 Townvote: ortolan

Pair3 Townvote: Abstract Actuary
Pair3 Townvote: zachattack

[Percy]

No counterclaim, and a dead scum. Seems pretty bulletproof to me.

You didn't answer why freeko shouldn't have been investigated.

I considered two to have wong because it was ages since people had voted.

Well, perhaps it would be better if you explained these posts en masse, since that excuse isn't going to work for all of them:

Why are people working out how to the option three when its obviously not what the town wants us to do.

(Votecount: 5v3)

It seemds to me, that six towny players.
4 cops, 2 vigs is the winner.

(7v3)

Its been ages with no new votes. Unless we want to wait till deadline, I think its fair to say 2B won it.

(9.5v3)

...and a few more:

People, mentioning how you want plan 3, 2A, 2C, 2D ect is not helpful.

Stop mentioning plan 3. We did not pick plan 3. Stop moaning about it.

We have made the final descision, we picked plan 2B. If we have a vig, they should be picking off anyone who tries to get the town to go with plan 3.

we should choose the plan before sending anyone. And we did. We chose 2B

I know I made a mistake and called it for Plan 2, and even described it as the final plancount. That was a mistake, and I regret that. However, I don't understand why you've been so eager to have Plan 2 put into action, and then to advocate the silencing of dissent when people voice their opinions. Surely you see that the willing co-operation of at least half the town is entirely necessary, no matter what they choose?

[Percy]

^^THIS^^

Empking, your argument relies on the idea that that DGB killed Steph as part of a bussing strategy. I just don't see any other possibilities, and that one is pretty remote. Either you know something we don't (and I'm pretty sure you know nothing of the sort), or you're deliberately wasting our time through misdirection, attacking some other player because you feel the heat. Makes me think you're panicking and not thinking straight, and that makes me think you might very well be scum.

I think my questions about your plan discussion are also largely unanswered, also.

FoS: Empking

.

Albert, why did you unsend Narsis? Seems a bit odd given that you had previously insisted that you were the Biggest Send Narsis Fan...

RossWilliam wants to end the day! My eyes nearly popped out of my skull. We still have over two weeks, and two pretty good plans to choose between. Why suffer the NK hit now, when we can either try and kill more scum or get more powers? Arguing for day end now is like arguing for no lynch on Day 1 in a regular game of mafia - confusing town

safety

with winning town

strategy

, in that you want to deny the town important information that will enable us to eventually win in the name of saving lives today. It's really, really scummy, and this after I exhorted you to scumhunt and participate.

FoS: RossWilliam

.

Moratorium is quick to bemoan the lack of scumhunting, but doesn't start even when I practically beg him to. What's up with that?


There will be no time to vote for plans 'after the second pair is sent'. We will be trying to send everyone at once, or as close together as possible. We really need to decide what is going on, because we have 20 people to organise in just over 2 weeks. No one has protested my latest plancount, so the majority want another townpair. Please

unofficially

vote for them, and unofficially vote for your third pair as a townsend or a scumsend. If you do it in blue at the bottom of your post, I can easily keep track of it.

[Percy]

It seems that Plan 3 has the majority - I believe there are enough people who are comfortable with it, and many others who are strong advocates. If someone wants to check, go ahead, but really, let's stop talking plans and start putting a pretty good one into action. We'll have to build up to majority twice, and this could take a while.


We send in the two who we find the most scummy as a scumpair, and we start doing this

NOW

. At the very least, it gives us something to do, which the day is sorely lacking at the moment.


We send in Plum and DGB. Plum grabs DI, DGB grabs DK. We send them as soon as we have our scumpair.

Team Miller are getting a DK/DI combo as well.

We can debate about what we do with the powers tomorrow.

In that vein, let's

Send: Empking
Send: RossWilliam

As for Moratorium's claim, I don't quite know how to take it yet. It's certainly a claim that he's immune to all night actions aside from those that go on in prison, which I find more telling than his claim of a sort-of-protect power. A claim motivated (apparently?) by laziness which says "don't waste your night powers on me" sends me spiralling down the WIFOM abyss.

You already know where I stand.

You bastards should stop reversing questions on me, it makes me die a little bit inside every time you do it.

Playstyle: I'm not going to discuss things, or really get involved in this game at all. I'm going to rant and rage and tell people how stupid they really are, and try and make them talk so I can insult them. If someone asks me to give an opinion, I'm not going to answer them, just get out my razor blades and cry about how the world doesn't understand me. Or, you know, attack them.

And you seem to be getting away with it, too.

Seriously, watch this:
Hey, Albert, who are the top two on your scum list, and why?

[Percy]

I decided to switch to plan 3 (even though I didn't officially

PlanUnvote, Vote: Plan 3

) for the sake of town unity and a desire to start putting it into practise - we may be running out of time. I feel that of the people who are actively posting and discussing strategy, plan 3 is preferred. Plum, Abstract Actuary and I have all expressed being OK with Plan 3, and if we discount the lurkers, it has pretty solid support.

I'm almost certain that Empking won't commit suicide (having expressed almost as much), and maybe whoever else goes in with him won't either. If they both say Yes/0% (the safest option) we'll have to waste our dayvigs on them, and all of this will be for (almost) nothing. So let me say this:

If you are in the scumpair and are, in fact, town, then

the most pro-town thing you can do is say "Yes 100%"

. Sucks to be you, I know. Help the team and just do it.

I still feel very strongly about plan 2 being the optimal strategy, but it seems that most people are worried that we're putting too many eggs in one basket. Thus I protest, but we are running out of time. If we're going to do plan 3, we have to do it now. I therefore want to send a scumpair off asap so we have time to build up a second majority to send off our townpair.

[Percy]

Empking is at Send.
RossWilliam is at S-3.

doctor no, either read the thread or state your suspicions.

[Percy]

Send: Plum
Send: DGB

I'm happy with DGB going. I think she's town, and understands what awaits her if she starts doing things with her vig that she's not supposed to.

Also, Albert, are you being all dramatic, vague and emo so you can jump up and down and say "I told you so" if things don't go to plan tonight? It kinda sounds like you're doing what Narsis was doing with freeko, one of the main (if not

the

main) reason you think Narsis is scum.

You also didn't answer my question before and continued to be evasive instead.

HoS: ABR

, for inconsistencies, preparing the "I told you so" and general unhelpfulness. Either you're scum, or are anti-town and

loving

it.

[Percy]

doctor no: Incorrect. RossWilliam chose the correct option, Empking did not. Empking might have just handed the scum a power, but luckily not a dayvig. I'm guessing it's just a pissed of town player ragequitting and screwing things up for all of us.

@Mod: Did RossWilliam choose 100%?

RossWilliam, please claim your power. I certainly hope it was an investigate - at the very least you can use the power for the benefit of the town. If and when RW dies, we'll be able to confirm the result.

Our townie players are in prison, depriving us of their powers today. We can either send scum in and hope we get some 1 for 1 exchanges (rather than disastrous 2 for 0), or we can send in town and use the powers we get tomorrow (assuming the power is a one-shot - I can't imagine it being something the scum can do every day). I'm going to call these

Plan: All Town

and

Plan: All Scum

, and we should vote on them. If you have any other suggestions (such as some scum and some town) then I'm sure you can figure out how to voice your opinions.

We need to decide who we're going to dayvig. Votes should be

Dayvig: PlayerName

.

I know many people want to dayvig RossWilliam right now, but I think we should wait until he claims and/or uses his power. I don't think he's any immediate danger.

[Percy]

RW could not have received DK powers from the PD. Two letter acronyms for TW.

Re: ortolan's suggestion for RossWilliam: If we do it this way, we are hoping RW will choose suicide again, and end up with an investigate tomorrow. If we kill him using our DK (which has a one day expiry) which Sly grabbed, we can get a new investigate and DK. We end up with an extra DK tomorrow instead. However, we may want to kill someone else with Sly's DK, in which case this plan may be optimal.

[Percy]

I received absolutely no notification that I was imprisoned. None.

[Percy]

Idea: Ross investigates Narsis, Lowell investigates Ross.

If Ross and Lowell are both scum, then they will probably have chosen non-investigate powers. The "result" will most likely be Innocent, Innocent. If we manage to kill one of them, we'll have the other one cornered. If they don't report Innocent, Innocent then we kill (asap) the one who was reported Guilty, and kill the investigator if they're not actually scum.

If we get Innocent, Innocent we can send Lowell off to prison to get killed. This would confirm investigate chain and dispose of a player who is either scum or who can't follow instructions. If the latter, then we have two (semi)confirmed townies.

Investigate: Narsis

Investigate: RossWilliam

Plan: 1 Scumpair + 2 Townpair

[Percy]

Well, let's start with a Ross investigates Narsis. I'd like to wait until ortolan's question:

Mod: can people change their chosen powers from the dilemma after day has started? If so is there any limit on this?

...is answered.

Lowell: address 740.


Due to the ambiguity in what you were actually voting for, I'll reset the vote counts.

Investigate: Narsis

Investigate Count

Narsis - 1 (Percy)

[Percy]

Indeed.

We must now either begin a regular game of mafia and lynch someone using a dayvig, or investigate Ross and execute the plan I outlined previously, or even investigate someone else.

The

Investigate[/orange]

and

Dayvig

tags should be used.

Life is insane at the moment, so I might not get a chance to post for a day or two.

[Percy]

EBWOP: urgh, sorry for broken tags.

The

Investigate

and

Dayvig

tags should be used.

[Percy]

Investigate: RossWilliam

If he's scum, Sly can kill him. We'll figure out what to do with Narsis later.
If he's innocent, there is no way of confirming the chain unless Lowell dies. Investigates on Lowell will be useless - he's either a miller or scum.

I haven't liked Lowell's play today. He made a mistake - we're lucky it could be rectified. I also don't like his suggestion that we send in RW or Narsis if RW flips innocent - RW and Narsis are far from cleared if the result is 'innocent' again.

Is the possible death of a miller worth risking to confirm two investigation results? I've been thinking about this ever since I proposed the plan (a post which Lowell seems to have missed...?).

Two more confirmed townies (adding to DGB) will allow us to use the PD more effectively. We'll have

three confirmed town

to pair up with suspected town.

Sly says yes (who gets an investigate), and Lowell says no. This will net us one investigate, two confirmed townies and a dead miller as a worst case scenario.

Our other option is to get two powers from the PD with Sly rather than just one, and leave the investigate results unconfirmed.

...let's decide after the investigate. All this gnashing about is worthless if Lowell gets a guilty result. If we don't have a better scum suspect to send to the PD, then we can send in Lowell.

PowerCount(!)

Investigate RossWilliam

- 5, possibly 8 (Kublai Khan, ortolan, Moratorium, killa seven, Percy, Lowell?, solorpg?, zach?)

(I know there's a deadline thing happening, but I'm keeping a record anyway)

[Percy]

I was afraid of this. Now we've got an investigation chain that is unable to be verified without Lowell being killed. Unfortunately, I think this also means the town is going to have to do the killing.

If the investigation chain is false, then

at least

Lowell and RW are

both

scum. It would be awesome to confirm two more town, but I've re-read Lowell's claim and his play today, and I have to say that aside from the "choosing the wrong power" issue, I can't think of a persuasive enough reason to kill Lowell aside from the confirmation, because I really did believe his claim on Day 1.

We can kill Lowell later if we need to confirm any alignments. Let's try out these new 'townies' and send them all to prison:

Narsis with DGB.

RossWilliams with Plum.

Sly with Lowell.

The advantages of this plan is that it either gets 6 townies with 6 powers if the investigation chain is correct, or it severely constricts the three in the investigate chain if they're scum. If one of them makes a wrong move, then we know the rest are almost definitely scum too. We also don't have to pick powers in advance, which gives us great flexibility to respond to whatever happens tonight and tomorrow.

The only other thing we can do is send those who look townish (aside from the investigate chain) to prison and hope for the best, but I think this isn't as good as what I've just proposed.

Send: Narsis

[Percy]

It looks like Narsis has 7 votes.

Narsis, I meant that if at least one of the results does not reflect reality, we could have the following:

RW lying, Lowell lying - All three in the chain are scum

RW lying, Lowell telling the truth - RW would have to be a GF (or some other investigation immune role), and Narsis a possible scumbuddy.

RW telling the truth, Lowell lying - RW and Lowell are scum, at least.

I'll be more precise and say this: if the investigation chain is proven incorrect by whatever means, at least RossWilliam is scum. We kill him. If he's a goon, Lowell goes too. If he's a godfather, we look very, very hard at Narsis.

[Percy]

Send: Lowell

Superfluous at this point, I know.

Before we send the last guy, I propose that we each put forward two names: someone that has made you think they were scummy as a result of

today

(and why), and someone who has made you think they were town.

Personally, I think RossWilliam has behaved calmly and in a very pro-town manner ever since the start of the day. He knew that he was going to die coming in to Day 2, and yet his actions don't match up with how I think scum would act. The investigation result, combined with my impressions of Lowell, go towards RossWilliam being town. I know that's not excellent and full of WIFOM, but it's the impression I've been getting all today.

As for someone I think is more scummy, I'd have to say Moratorium. I'd say this is true simply because I didn't get any notification of my 'imprisonment', and I don't like the fact that he claimed on Day 1 when he really shouldn't have. The early claim, but particularly the lack of verification I received, make me very suspicious of him.

[Percy]

Send: RossWilliam

Moratorium, when tomorrow rolls around, make sure you tell us who you used your power on. I'm 99% sure there will be no notification.

[Percy]

As far as I know Freelance Vigilante is my role title.

Why did you claim?
Why do you not know for 100% what you're claiming?

I'm going to assume the answer is "because I want the real vig to counterclaim so my scumbuddies can shoot him!".

Also, "Freelance" makes it sound like you're a survivor or an SK, if that is in fact your role title. If that's the case, then let's hear it loud and clear.

Real vig, stay hidden. Whatever you do, don't counterclaim.



Time for my claim.

I am a

Protown Prison Cop

. I can investigate players, but only whilst they are imprisoned.

I was roleblocked on Night 1. I can therefore clear Moratorium. I was attempting to investigate DGB.

I distanced myself from Moratorium the next day, as I didn't want to signal my power role to the scum. I would have claimed if Moratorium had been in any danger, but he wasn't - he's unNKable, after all.

Reason for claim:
I investigated DGB successfully last night. I received a guilty result. I have no reason to doubt my sanity.

[Percy]

I'm going to assume the answer is "because I want the real vig to counterclaim so my scumbuddies can shoot him!".

Also, "Freelance" makes it sound like you're a survivor or an SK, if that is in fact your role title.

I cannot be both SK and mafia at the same time. I am neither but you sounds like are just throwing opinions out there and seeing what will stick.

I'm trying to point out that your claim is inconsistent. It sounds like it's just begging for a counterclaim. Not only is the role title ambiguous, you use language like "as far as I know" and claim without any good reason to do so. If you are not the vig, I don't want the real vig to counterclaim just for the sake of a lynch.

I am a Protown Prison Cop. I can investigate players, but only whilst they are imprisoned.

Imprisoned, or in prison?

As in, can you only investigate someone who was jailed (via "send"), or can you investigate anyone who happens to be in the prison?

My role says "imprisoned". It doesn't get any more specific than that. I took it to mean those who were sent, but I might be wrong.

Percy: does your ability work if you yourself are in prison?

No.

Why would you chose me as your target, on account of my role, which lead to the death of a scumbag, with no one suspecting me???

DGB was considered (basically) guaranteed town by everyone. However, I was concerned that she might have (1) killed her scumbuddy by accident, and it appeared like a pro-town move, or (2) killed her scumbuddy on purpose as a bussing strategy. No-one was investigating her, and it didn't look like anyone was going to. I tried to investigate her on Night 1, but was roleblocked.

I tossed up between investigating RossWilliam, Plum and DGB, as investigating Narsis would be pointless (given that an investigation of RW would clear Narsis), and the same with the millers. If it wasn't for her ability and claim on the first day, I would have pegged DGB as scum from her playstyle. I became more and more concerned that we were going to let a scum player be our 'most confirmed townie'. If she was town, I wanted to know. If she was scum, I

really

wanted to know.


I assume DGB is panicking, because ad hominem is bullshit.

The best course of action would be to send both Percy and myself together. I will kill him. And he'll kill me. But that's the nature of his gambit. I know he's lying, and I want him dead.

I stand by the result. I'll be happy to take her out - one for one trades are awesome for the town. I know I'll kill her, and I know she'll try to kill me, so I'll go with the scum-dead-for-certain plan.

Send: DGB

Send: Percy

[Percy]

ANOTHER INTERESTING QUESTION - The scum didn't use their gas chamber power on the first night. Perhaps there was a scum in the lot!!!

How interesting is this question? Do you really want to consider this? Okay, let's look at this.

First night was Plum, DGB, RossWilliam, Lowell, SlySly and Empking.
Second night was Plum, DGB, RossWilliam, Lowell, SlySly and Narsis.

Empking was a towntard, and Narsis was also town. Everyone else was in prison both nights. The only people who survived last night were also imprisoned on the first night.

So perhaps there was a scum in the lot. Perhaps that scum is you.

Perhaps you didn't want to trip the poison gas until five people were imprisoned who were otherwise going to survive.

Or, perhaps this question is not worth considering in the first place.

You're not thinking, or analysing. You're not even getting your facts straight. Squirm more, scum.


Before I go, I'll give my scum/town list.

Scum

DGB

Scummish

hp [leaves] (doesn't seem to be paying attention, and 933 made me uncomfortable)
Dr Pepper (I don't buy the claim for reasons stated)

Lurkers

TCS (lurk)
killa seven (lurk, and the 'oh it's so confusing' - I don't buy it)
doctor no (

uber

lurk)
solorpg (lurk)

No read

zwet (replaced Seraphim, who lurked like crazy)

Townish

SlySly
ortolan
zachattack
Moratorium

I think lurkers need to start talking

NOW

. If there's not at least one scum amongst the lurkers, I will eat my head.

Also, Percy: if you think DGB is scum, what is the best way to kill her?

I believe I answered this at the end of my last post, but I think the best way would be to let me take her out.

Other plans include (1) hoping the vig will do it, or (2) sending off more townies to get powers, which will include a dayvig (and possibly an investigate if we want to be careful) for her tomorrow.

I will stand by my result and jab her full of YES100% scumdeathjuice. I think a one-for-one swap would be the least risky and most guaranteed to work.

[Percy]

No-one can dayvig you, DGB. "Hoping the vig will do it" translates to:

1. Leaving you out of prison
2. Hoping the vig picks you
3. Hoping no-one stops the vig, who has (as far as you're concerned) claimed
4. Discovering the result tomorrow.

I think any plan that involves step 1 is pretty crap right now, tbh. I'm fairly certain 2 would happen, but your scumbuddies will probably kill Dr Pepper or roleblock him. Then we'd start Day 4 with both of us alive, and none the wiser. We'd then have to waste powers on (possibly) confirming results and killing you during the next day.

This plan is fail, full of craplogic and misdirection. DGB is scum, trying to avoid prison with empty arguments, dragging this out for as long as she can. Trade time, scumbag.

@Moratorium: I'd missed that about TCS, thanks. His replacement deserves a grilling tomorrow, though.

[Percy]

why is zachattack town?

Has generally been engaged with analysis and scumhunting, rather than just restating facts and following along with the crowd. However, since that post he is being insane. Take this:

By the way, it's clear that the scum wanted to send townies to prison to gas them. Way back on Day 1 we voted on a plan of action, mostly between sending 6 townies and sending 4 townies and 2 scum. Of the players still alive, Percy, hp leaves and Dr. No all pushed for the 6 townie plan. Moratorium originally did as well, but changed his mind. As for the dead scummies, ABR supported sending one scum pair, Abstract supported sending 6 townies, and Steph didn't get a chance to support anything.

Your conclusion does not follow from your premises. Firstly, note that a

confirmed scum

was

not

pushing for the 6 townie plan, so nothing is 'clear'. Your "of the players still alive" is a nice touch, given that players like Plum and Narsis pushed just as hard for the 6 townie plan. Your argument also assumes that I'm scum, which I'm not.

I think you're trying to pin the whole 'send 6 townies to prison' on me, and therefore (somehow) on the scum. This is absolute nonsense, and I have no idea why you would try and make this argument.

why is Moratorium town?

I believe his claim, as I was roleblocked on night 1. I also like his analysis, most of the time, even when I don't agree with him. Just having analysis in the first place sets him apart from many other players, who seem content to meekly agree and restate facts rather than engage with what's going on.

why is solorpg a lurker?

His activity level is low compared to other players. This makes me nervous. I just have no read on him, and this shouldn't be the case on Day 3.

Why would you investigate DGB over Plum night 1? Plum said some townish things, DGB actually killed a scum with her claimed power role.

I believe I already answered this question. And I believe that tonight's result will show everyone just how right that decision was. If it wasn't for my result, most people would never have looked at DGB again. I felt it was important to confirm the result myself. It was entirely possible that Stephoscope's death was an

unintended

consequence of a scum power, and I wanted to be sure.

How does me saying that I feel you're a townie makes you uncomfortable?

It makes me uncomfortable because it doesn't say what you find townish, and why. It was a post that says "I agree!", and I think this option is always available to both town and scum. Saying "I agree with these things for these reasons" is both better for the town and (therefore/also) harder for the scum to mimic.

I think that Dr Pepper should not be imprisoned. If his claim is real, then we want him to be working for us. If his claim is not, we want him out in the open so the mafia and/or real SK can take the scum out.

I honestly want to see the town with some powers tomorrow. Ending the day is safe, but the town will be powerless. I advocate sending one more pair.



I don't have anything else to say, apart from: I am very much looking forward to DGB's name coming up in red tomorrow morning.

[Percy]

I don't like this 1 for 1 trade, but I may be misunderstanding something. It is just a coin flip, not a 1 for 1. One will die and the other won't. I don't see how we will know the alignment of the survivor either way.

I'm going to be selecting Yes/100%. I'm guessing DGB will be choosing the same, as would any scum in that position. We will both die. One less scum for the town, however you see it.

@zach:

Ortolan had

clearly

been in favor of Plan 3

the entire time

, but you put him in the Plan 2 camp for some reason. I called you on this then, but you corrected yourself in your next post, and I didn't pursue it. In hindsight I should have.

Emphasis mine, because:

I'd go with Plan 2B but don't necessarily think it should be the "towniest", I'd like to send the two millers as one pair.

Clearly. The entire time.

I explained myself (and apologised) back then. It was a clerical error, and I really don't know what else I can say.

[Percy]

My role states that I can only go to a prisoner's house to investigate them. When I do so, I receive their alignment. That's my power, and I don't know why it appears to contradict the ruleset. I can think of reasons why going to a house is not the same as targeting a player with something like a NK or protect, but I guess that's up to your judgement.

As I've said before, I stand by my claim and my result. DGB is scum.

[Percy]

You are asked for details:

My role says "imprisoned".

It doesn't get any more specific than that.

No mention of player houses.

Nice bit of quotemining there. In that post, I was responding directly to Moratorium's question as to whether I could target those who were imprisoned

by him

. The fact that it "doesn't get more specific" means it doesn't say "you may target those in the PD", it just says players who are "imprisoned".

I had no reason to talk about the house thing before today. I dismissed it as flavour, to be honest, and quite irrelevant. It doesn't

really

change how my ability appears to contradict the ruleset. AFAIK, most mafia games have "a role beats a rule", so I can only assume that this idea is used implicitly in this game.

Since you brought it up, I'll rehash the Moratorium/Percy Day 2 extravaganza. I was roleblocked, and didn't want to confirm Moratorium, as I thought he was un-NKable and under no great suspicion, and didn't want to claim yet. Therefore, I said that I received no notification (which is true), and let suspicion fall on Moratorium, and even generated some. I wanted to appear to be a townie who might be persuaded to get Moratorium lynched tomorrow (as that is the only way the scum can kill him), which would help ensure I survived the night to get an investigate result. Which is exactly what happened.

Why would the real SK need to take me out? If I am fake claiming vigilante, wouldn't the real vigilante need to take me out? If I am scum, why would the scum be trying to take me out? Do you believe there are two scum groups? Why?

If you are the SK, then the mafia will want to kill you. You've killed two of them so far, and having a non-mafia-aligned player with NK abilities is just generally not a good idea for them.
If you are mafia, then the real SK (or vig, it actually doesn't matter for this argument) should continue his fine work of putting scum to death.
I do not believe there are two scum groups, as there is no evidence to suggest that is the case.

SlySly and ortolan are my town picks for the additional pair.

[Percy]

Does your PM say you're a miller? If 'yes' then surely a sanity issue would be hinted at with the cop.

Why surely?

The fact that he didn't consider his sanity at all questionable based on one result says this whole insane cop thing is just bullshit you're spouting because your buddy fell apart when Moratorium caught him out.

I said I have no reason to doubt my sanity, and that's true. I wanted to point out that I didn't get any indication in my PM that I might be insane, or that there could be inconsistencies somehow. I got my result; the options are "Percy may be insane, and so the result is worthless" or "We should act on Percy's information". I think the latter is the superior course of action. Why? Because I think DGB is scum, for reasons in addition to my investigation result, especially in how she reacted to my claim and her play today, but Day 1 as well.

Surely, by now, you have figured out we don't get to lynch.

By that point, yes. In my head, I was talking about a Dayvig, but we hadn't developed a good understanding of the game mechanics and good ways to talk about it by that point either.

Rushing the day is always scummy in my book. Discussion is always the best way to find scum.

At that point in the game, we had no powers and no lynches. We could have scumhunted, but without the threat of death there was nothing we could do to get good results. I was working from a standpoint that plan 2 was the better plan. I eventually agreed with plan 3, for the sake of unity and for the purposes of scumhunting - that is, facilitating the discussion that I thought was lacking.

What kind of counter claim could there be to FBI Agent? Maybe I am reading too much into the flavor, which I have been guilty of before and will probably be again, but an FBI Agent counter doesn't seem possible to me. It does have definite possibility of great scum cover though.

I meant that no-one else had claimed responsibility for the deaths. It was certainly instigated by a player, rather than being a random happenstance.

How does this clear Mora? He could be a scum roleblocker.

Indeed he could be. Whilst I think Moratorium's play on Day 1 was not so good, he has been a good, responsible townie since then. I won't discount the possibility, but when I saw his play on Day 2 I thought he was probably town, and his claim was probably true.

I don't understand why his claim made you think he is unNKable.

Ironically enough, special rule 8.

Is there something specific in your PM that says you are sane?

No.

I don't think sacrificing you to kill DGB is the right thing to do. I think there is a better way to take her out and I wish you would unsend yourself until we can find that better way so you can continue to be an asset to the town.

Killing off another innocent townie on the back of my claim, in the hopes of retaining a powerrole

while roleblocking that power role

seems a little hard to swallow. Of course I would love to survive and continue to help the town, but I realise that most people have problems with my claim and want to ensure a scumdeath. I'm happy to help make that happen.

The results for DGB's "special lethal injection prisoner's dilemma" were never given to the public. That goes against Special Rule 7 and further demonstrates DGB's scuminess. DGB, herself, said it was a 'prisoner's dilemma'. Well, from a PD I expect results straight from the mod, which we didn't get.

That's interesting, I went back to check my PM to satisfy my curiosity. It says that the players are placed in a scenario

similar

to PD. But that's just pedantic splitting of hairs on my part, because, this being said, yes, to be consistent with his own rules, the mod should have announced the players' choices to everyone, not just me.

Oh, it's the mod's fault, is it?
You poke holes in my claim by saying it contradicts rule 8. When your power contradicts the ruleset, it's the mod's fault for not making it clear...?
I find it odd, now that I think about it, that you were the one who got the percentages rather than the town. Perhaps you got to set the percentages yourself, or your scumbuddy had to set them for you.

I would like to know what the replacements think, so let's wait for them.

[Percy]

I've been sent with DGB. Tomorrow, we will be dead, and hopefully that will give the town enough info to get on with it.

I'm sorry if you all think I didn't defend myself enough. It was going over and over the same old arguments (and new ones that DGB scrounged out that were so painfully obviously wrong that I didn't think I needed to say anything). Many of the questions posed to me were ones I had already answered.

I stand by my claim, and my result, and will kill DGB tonight to prove that I was right all along.

My role does not contradict special rule 8, as it reads "unless otherwise specified", which it has been in my PM.

I don't like the idea of zach and Sly getting sent together. I think there is a good enough chance that they're both town, and we'd be losing three town players tonight.

I suggest we send in two players most people agree are town to get powers.

However, I will ask this: Why is Dr Pepper volunteering to go in and die to kill Sly, when he could just use his vig powers to kill Sly and continue to be this awesome pro-town power role he's claiming to be? Especially given that zwet can protect both of them and kill any attackers.

[Percy]

- Percy, how do you explain the DGB town flip and your guilty verdict claim? (Your answer at this point would probably have to be the greatest answer in all of mafiascumdom to convince me that it wasn't also just made up).

I was duped. Either by the setup (I am insane), or by the mafia (framer etc.)

My confidence in my result was unfounded, obviously. I fully expect to die today.

As I was pretty sure no-one would listen to me, and you would either dayvig me or send me off to prison to die, I decided to grab an investigate, and I targeted Dr Pepper.

Dr Pepper is "neutral"

There. Now go waste your powers killing me.

For the record, I'm sorry I screwed up

[Percy]

Percy, would you care to speculate a little further on how your result was incorrect for yesterday? I know you mentioned possiblities, but what is your opinion on the most likely scenario?

I believe that my rolecop ability is insane. After I claimed my result, I got more and more convinced as DGB kept posting - she seemed (to me) like scum who had been caught out.

I think the chances of someone trying to frame DGB is slim, given that she was unlikely to be investigated (which is precisely why I investigated her in the first place).




ortolan has claimed that his answer was changed. @ortolan: are you suggesting the scum have the power to change

individual answers

, or reverse a pair of answers? I think the former is too overpowered (as it is not a clear "scumpower" like gassing everyone or locking up all the townies), and the latter begs the question "why the hell did EA say 'yes' to begin with?".

I currently prefer the read "ortolan is scum and DGB is retarded".

My possible people who are responsible for last night's "shot"
killseven
solorpg

Why is Moratorium not on this list?

[Percy]

I disbelieve your claim of insane, neutral-detecting cop.

My role ability may be insane, but I got my neutral answer from a PD ability.

Leading the witness.

That's a somewhat fair characterisation of what I did - it could be other things, I just can't think of them (aside from the read which I posted, which ortolan will of course reject). But ortolan isn't stupid, and neither are people under cross examination in a court of law, so I don't see why this is a bad thing.

@Moratorium: How do you explain the ortolan/DGB vote anomalies? I'm since you listed ortolan as a vig target that you believe my analysis, yes? Or do you have some other explanation? (that last sentence is superfluous, you see).

Why should Moratorium be on that list?

Are you asking me this question, or Dr Pepper? I assume the former.

I will answer this, but I'd like to hear what Dr Pepper has to say first. I guess I'm asking Dr Pepper to say why he thinks Moratorium is town.

[Percy]

ortolan has lied about his investigation, bussed the shit out of zach, and will now avoid a vig.

This is: suboptimal.

[Percy]

This was one of the first games I ever played here on MS, and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Thanks guys!

Also, here's the quicktopic link:
http://www.quicktopic.com/42/H/5DRYEEz98ZaKi

I'd especially like to thank Albert, Zach and solo for being great scumbuddies, and MM for a great game.


Also, Dr Pepper was killed by zach, Mora.

[Percy]

From the beginning I wanted everyone to go to prison; given our powers, I think all scum shared this view. We wanted to turn the prison into an abbatoir, which we did in style.

I made a few mistakes, but managed to wriggle my way out of most of them. Once Day 3 came around, we wanted to use the flip during the evening, and that's why I claimed a guilty on DGB. It turned out to be harder than I expected, but not too much harder, to get into prison with her.

Poor SlySly, I felt very sorry for him

If solorpg had been killed or roleblocked last night, today would have started with only two (or three) scum - DGB would have killed me, and zach/jake would have no powers and look incredibly fishy from having answered yes/yes.

TCS was great for us, and his replacement got similar treatment - leave the lurking, uncooperative members unexamined while they use all our neat abilities unhindered!


I think what was required to win this game was to send scum to prison, possibly with townie partners. Be cold hearted about it and enforce 1-1 trades!



Can I just clarify - Moratorium was totally NKable, right, MM?

[Percy]

Yeah, thanks for your contributions. Inactive townies made our job

much

easier.