Crackers! Mafia -- Game Over. See page 50

[forbiddanlight]

I'm here. I shouldn't have taken this game on, but I will play to the best of my ability. Anyway, I have no idea what's going on, and I'm not focusing well at ALL right now. I'll try to catch up tomorrow/Friday.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm here. I shouldn't have taken this game on, but I will play to the best of my ability. Anyway, I have no idea what's going on, and I'm not focusing well at ALL right now. I'll try to catch up tomorrow/Friday.

welcome forb. but that quote is depressingly similar to the majority of what we got out of sensfan.

Difference is I plan to actually follow through. It's just I kinda am in the middle of final hell which is why I really shouldn't have agreed to go in. But once those are over I should be back at my hyperactively posting self. I'll try to keep up as best I can in the meantime.

[forbiddanlight]

Ok...I was going to go through and post everything I observed from the start, but I think for now I'll just do a commentary on what's scummy from D3. Since I'm getting tired already after 6 pages. Should have something shortly.

[forbiddanlight]

Let me rephrase that. I replaced in practically at the start of D3 and have no idea what people are talking about. So, let me attempt D2 in an attempt to not fry my brain.

[forbiddanlight]

vote: sensfan

Probably explained in D1, but can you revisit why?

vote: Korts for failure to claim. Scum hates having to claim.

I mostly agree, assumably another D1 event?

a counterpoint to the theory that sens is lurking everywhere (though i too feel his absence from his modded games), i present the recently concluded open 102 where town sens was incredibly active. it ran concurrently with his inability to post anything meaningful in this thread whatsoever.

Ah, that doesn't look good, but that's a semi explanation. Well...hopefully I can make my presence more known.

not a utility lynch, sens is obvscum. having him replaced would be cruel to the replacement.

If only because I am playing with you .

I kid.

We should get 2 to 3 daykills per day. One from the compulsive vig, and another from the mafia - and perhaps one from the SK, should there be one.

You do understand the concept of "COULD be" in the game, right?

Actually... Guardian was most likely a scum kill. So that the vig kill was foiled. Ah well. Forget what I said about the doctor. The dummy probably protected a scumbag.

You also forget the possibility of a mafia doc or mafia roleblocker. Both potential roles.

But, either way, how does speculating about killing roles help us? Beginning to get an IIoA vibe.

Sens should be utility lynched. He should either start posting or be replaced. His activity in the other game rofl linked to is certainly cause for suspicion, though.

Um, all this call for utility lynch/policy lynch is getting annoying. It seems anti town.

rofl's and DGB's day 2 posts before this are all rather IIoA and somewhat scummy.

I meant shouldn't.

Yeah, that does make more sense rereading your post, lol.

Also, I'm mildly interested to see if people think that Elmo's idea for why Guardian was killed is legitimate.

I think it's a good theory, to be honest.

="BM"


I'm fairly sure that 1 of the first 2 is the culprit of the Guardian-kill. Korts should also be killed for vague scumminess.

Even if you are BM...reasoning?

ANd yeah, Sensfan is lurking.

Vote:Sensfan

Is this

really

it?

BM is scum, he must die. I don't know what he's up to, I don't know what impression he's trying to give, but he's a lying scumbag. This much I know.

I'm all for SensFan to die. But with this post, BM has shown me beyond the shadow of a doubt that he can only be scum.

unvote, vote: BattleMage

Blatent OMGUS anyone?

It's a most excellent wagon, regardless. BM is up to no good. He's not working for the town.

My future sight says that you were wrong. Care to explain?

Amusing really that all 3 people who i declared were my suspects suddenly want to lynch me for no other reason than OMGUS. I guess the real test will be whether the remaining players buy into it, or whether they help me string the scumbags up.

It

is

amusing, given your flip

Wait, save my arse from what? The size of my wagon yesterday was partly due to the proximity of the deadline, IMO. I've got time to earn some town cred back today. And I'm starting with you.

pro tip. It failed. And if I had been playing D2, I'd say this in and of itself was scummy knowledge of BM's alignment. Now it just becomes more WIFOMy than the original premise would be.

Also, OMGUS is such a fictive scumtell. It doesn't exist in practice.

As far as DGB's vote goes, it certainly exists.

OMGUS isnt a scumtell, full stop. Not when so many stupid townies fall into the trap. I fail to see the case on me however, and feel you fall into 1 of the above categories.

Most votes for attackers aren't OMGUS. They actually have some weak case. DGB is just...wow, and using force of will to push a lynch rather than logic feels scummy.

GOOD QUESTION. Razz

I looked into people's activity on site at the time of guardians death. Not everyone, just a few people i thought were scummy, and/or had motives for wanting him dead. DGB had not posted on site within the time frame available for the kill (in excess of 3 hours i think). When i asked her where she was, in an attempt to give her an opportunity to confirm herself, she claimed that she'd been at a computer-something which i find very unlikely given her normal posting rate when she has computer access. Motive for the lie? i'm not sure. But chronic lying when scum isnt uncommon.

BM

Of all the scumtells DGB dropped in attacking you...you clue in on THIS? Seriously BM, DGB now looks better since you were such a ridiculous arse here.

You've said you don't want a replacement because Sens is "obvscum". I cannot see how a person, who does not see Sens as obvscum, could justify advocating a utility lynch when replacement is an option (policy lynch is also an option - it's not a utility or suspicion dichotomy). You've precluded replacement as an option for yourself, but your thinking here ignores it as an option for others.

This is so amazingly accurate it hurts. Honestly, rofl, you tunneled yourself into a rather untenable stance.

If Sens posts again and doesn't start contributing, I'm up for lynching him. But Yos' vote for him seems lazy. His whole play so far this game seems lazy. It really doesn't feel like Yos is trying to catch scum. When I look back at his case on me, it still looks like a big show for all the reasons I've stated. Given that ckd was town his case on me obviously doesn't stand, but rather than searching for a new case, he goes on easy mode and joins a lurker wagon.

Yos, if Sens has flaked, will you still vote his replacement? Why?

I agree with this sentiment.

Which of the six I've named do you think would give us the most insight to the others' alignments if lynched?
That is, I think we should lynch one of those six and focus on narrowing that list down.

I actually dislike this post since it seems to be lining up lynches that could be completely off, and if enough of them are wrong, cause a win for des scum. Not sure if I think you are scum or not, but I think your idea was horrible.

Kills are made in real time. Therefore we should be able to get some leads from who is online when the kill is submitted. Notice that you criticise my reasoning for voting DGB, perhaps justly, but then dont criticise her for having no reasoning whatsoever. Nice...

I actually agree with this. It makes Yos look a little worse, assuming DGB scum. And the reverse applies too.

No reason.

Can we kill BM already?

Hey Yos, are you scum or town? You're trying to derail BM's wagon in favor of a lurker wagon, and here's BM, bus'ing you. You scumbags should have a little private talk and get your act together, or we're going to have to lynch you all.

Did you even read BM's post? He actually did have a reason, and it was actually better than his reason for voting you.

unvote Vote:BM Asking to be replaced out because you're under pressure is such a scum move. I was going to wait for your response to my points before I voted you, to see if you'd see some reason, but now I'm clearly not going to. So frustrating.

I disagree with yosarian2. But I also happen to know how he flipped . But still, I could understand BM getting irritated with this game and replacing out. I've had situations where I probably SHOULD have done it as well, before.

shit
I think I just hammered.

I HATE it when I do that.

I'd like to lynch vollkan today. All the while he stays on the sidelines. He's very off.

You have a bit of a point there. I don't recall many stances from him at all.

I'm pretty sure we should lynch Yos today.

Did I miss reasoning?

We've been over this over and over again, and you still haven't managed to point out anything that was either innacurate about my observations on your or that was illogical about the conclusions I drew from them. Therefore I can only conclude that you are voting me because of OMGUS, because you certanly haven't given any other reason then the points I made about your day 1 play.

Hmm...this feels odd though. Like you are attacking the logic and not addressing any argument if it exists (which it assumably does and I missed it).

Well...that catches me up. I think I probably missed a lot in D1, and if anyone would like to breif me, it'd be happy making. Anyway...I think a

Vote DGB

is appropriate here. No matter how weird her meta is, the way she handled the BM wagon was really scummy in my eyes. She gets a slight reprieve for BM being a dumbass, but you didn't do much better. At least he had (very thinly justified) reasons. Also think Yos 2 should be looked at closer, especially if DGB flips scum.

[forbiddanlight]

(Welcome to the game.)

That isn't true. I've given my opinion on everybody, and I've been involved in both offensive and defensive debates.

Quite possibly all D1, so I can't really hold it against you. D2 on you haven't done much remarkable, I suppose.

No, it isn't OMGUS. OMGUS is the fallacy of arguing along the lines of "I know I am town. Person X is attacking me. Since Person X is attacking me, who I know to be town, Person X must be scum". BM had presented incredibly dodgy attacks on DGB and, whilst her reasoning is ambiguous (as we've come to expect <grumble>), it isn't an OMGUS.

Her reasoning doesn't exist. And no, I see OMGUS as what it is. You are attacking me. Oh My God U Suck, I'm going to vote you. Your definition of OMGUS is...not.

[forbiddanlight]

forb, there is no such thing as OMGUS. Seriously. Believe me. There is always an underlying reason to what you call "OMGUS", and that underlying reason makes the accusation of "OMGUS" invalid. Even if that underlying reason is only "that player's vote on me is weakly justified".

This was argued in MD. I still don't really think it's valid. And if that underlying reason isn't expressed, what is one to do?

[forbiddanlight]

Well, whether I accept your argument that OMGUS exists or not is a rather moot point, is it not? How does this help us hunt scum?

The way DGB handled BM was scummy, whether you call it OMGUS or not.

[forbiddanlight]

How was it scummy? The only point you made was that DGB committed "OMGUS", a claim which Korts and I have shown to be patently false.

I never accepted it was false. And if you actually read my posts, you'd know my claim went beyond her committing OMGUS. I said she didn't provide reasoning for her BM vote and seemed far too assured of his scumness. Also, Yos has been defending her like mad, as well as the fact BM's entire suspicion list jumped on him the minute a bandwagon was viable. She was on it, and I feel the most scum vibes from her.

1) "OMGUS" is an emotive label
2) You are potentially scum
3) Therefore, debating your use of the label "OMGUS" is scum-hunting

Um...no?

1 and 2 are true...but 3 doesn't really follow. And you gain +5 to scumminess for that false progression. -2 modifier on bluff and diplomacy checks with me.

[forbiddanlight]

It isn't a false progression. As with analysis of any argument, analysing use of "OMGUS" is a method of scum-hunting.

Ah, but you never said that. And that's NOT what you are doing.

You are basically arguing the semantics of OMGUS. You are NOT analyzing the use of it. And that's why it was a false progression.

If you looked at what she was saying in the context of BM's actions, her reasons were fairly obvious (he was making very bad posts, as you yourself have acknowledged). I'm extremely strict about reasons, and even I can see that.

And I can't see where you argued she seemed too "assured".

Just because you can see it does not absolve explanation

I may not have argued it. I was in a hurry to get that post done. I know I felt it, and I apologize if I failed to point it out.

[forbiddanlight]

I directly referred to "the use of it". And that is what I have been analysing (ie. by pointing out that you did not actually identify OMGUS. All you really attacked with that was the fact that DGB voted BM who was voting her, which isn't the least bit scummy.

Except...it was. BM was a scapegoat, quite obviously. It's just too suspicious how things played out.

And the use of it can mean anything. So far we've been in a semantics debate about the use of OMGUS.

[forbiddanlight]

You started this by saying that I had committed a false progression, which was rot because analysing your use of the label in argument is scum-hunting. There's no semantics involved.

Let's see, this whole OMGUS argument started with you or Korts arguing my use of it and saying it doesn't exist. this is totally semantics

"scapegoat" for what? And what was suspect about the way it "played out"?

I've explained why it was suspect how it played out.

as for scapegoat, BM was obviously the scapegoat for the scum to get a mislynch. (I misused the word, to be honest )

[forbiddanlight]

It isn't semantics. You accused DGB of committing OMGUS, which she didn't do. The definition of OMGUS isn't a semantic issue at all - it goes to the fact that you can sling it around as an emotively-loaded label when, in reality, it is wrongly used. You also tried re-defining it yourself as "You are attacking me. Oh My God U Suck, I'm going to vote you" and relied on the apparent silence in DGB's post as to her reasons when, in context, the reasons for voting BM were manifestly obvious.

First, since when does OMGUS NOT stand for Oh My God U Suck? I am

not

redefining it. You are. Further, this IS a semantic debate. it is manifestly obvious why I am voting DGB. I don't think the reasons are so manifestly obvious, since she voted him BEFORE he started in with the whole she lied thing (I think?)

More misuse of an emotional label. Hmm.

I grant this, mostly because I got jumbled. I still think that BM was a planned mislynch.

Well, no, actually you haven't. The only points you initially raised on DGB was the (wrong) OMGUS point, and the (context-ignorant) point about her not having explanations. You then later added a point about her seeming "too assured" (which is really just DGB's style of writing)

Then you haven't read my posts. And I have no need to debate you if you won't do that.

It's some basic vote count analysis. Scum know who each other are and so it's usually safe to assume that their play will be influenced by how their buddies vote. I split my suspects into those on ckd's wagon and those off because I tend to think scum won't all vote together.

Well, now you've made it WIFOM, but this is an acceptable explanation. I don't like the vibe I get from it but I think I understand it?

Ironically, you seem to be making DGB the scapegoat for BM's lynch now. Hypocrisy is the best!

And if she flips scum? (not that it's unlikely)

Um, actually, vollkan's point was that you used the term OMGUS on something that obviously isn't.

Even though it was. You all debated the semantics of the existence of OMGUS. vollkan only got beyond that. Nice try Korts.

I agree that forb deserves suspicion. The Yosarian-suspicion I agree with to a lesser extent. I don't really see vollkan as scummy, though, and Elmo hasn't contributed a lot to discussion (I am aware of his computer problems, which might in part explain that).

Everyone deserves suspicion. Some more than others. I grant people don't like what I'm saying. I've never excelled at arguing things. But as long as I'm eventually listened to, I'll be happy.

i think yos and des are both town and this feud between them is a big waste of time

Yosarian2, an Inuit Mafia Godfather, has been killed

whoops. Not that it matters. Just slight amusement.

i think the most likely yosarian scumpartner is korts

Why?

yos was way too concerned about why people were wagoning you day one and made it his business to make sure your wagon didn't outcompete ckd's. then the continued expressions of exasperation over the fact that not many people did address his concerns about your wagon. thats the biggest thing.

Thanks. Um...I guess I have to at least read D1 soon, don't I? I'm not gonna do a commentary post but it might change my views. But I'll do this rl tomorrow.

well that was thoroughly unconvincing

This. Too obvious begs WIFOM.

vollkan is still alive? He's done little more than bus.

And defend you along with Korts. I'd like a response to my vote, no matter how weak the case might seem.

[forbiddanlight]

unvote, vote: Elmo

Ok...seriously, even if I were to cede vollkan's point on BM (And I won't), what the hell ever happened to reasoning?

[forbiddanlight]

unvote, vote: Elmo

Ok...seriously, even if I were to cede vollkan's point on BM (And I won't), what the hell ever happened to reasoning?

I've already pointed out that he's lurking, obviously, that's the reasoning.

I must have missed that. But lurker votes on D3? Seriously?

[forbiddanlight]

I agree with this. forb, why do you think the fact that it's Day 3 lowers the validity of a lurkerhunt?

depends on the lurking level. I find it tends to be more damaging when a lurker is lynched later game than early game, but I overall disagree with LALurk. Elmo appeared to be busy and he did make a post to catch up it would seem. If he keeps lurking like this, I suppose I could understand more votes, though I still don't like LALurk as I said.

[forbiddanlight]

As I have already said, though, this definition has no operation in relation to what DGB said.

Quite simply, bullshit

More fundamentally, though, the bit you omitted was the part by BM which showed, if it wasn't obvious just from the context, that she was voting him for a crappy accusation and not on the spurious grounds that you have raised.

Wait...are you serious? Because I didn't do the whole quote tree, and I NEVER do the whole quote tree, you are voting me? Wow. +10 to scumminess.

I'm almost willing to give up DGB for that pile of shit right there.

You probably didn't mean "scapegoat"; it certainly makes no sense. But, that's really not the point. It's that you felt the need to ratchet things up by incorporating such a word. Saying BM is a "planned mislynch" is still an unfalsifiable assertion.

Ok. And?

Again, wrong on roles. Not scummy.

nice try. I wasn't saying wrong on roles was scummy. I was saying the IIoA was. Learn to read.

Okay, so you do find this scummy. In which case, what is "IIoA"?

Wiki is your friend.

Information Instead of Analysis.

No.

Yes

The only evidence you point to here is the lack of reasons, which is crap anyway because the reasons were implicit.

Once again, implicitness does NOT EXCUSE REASONING! It never has, and never will. What may be implicit to you may not be to someone else, and further, you might have reasons beyond the purportedly obvious. This whole argument is absolute bullshit.

"was scummy". HOW?! So far you've only said it was OMGUS.

The repeated attacks from the assumption that BM was scum despite the fact that it did not seem very obvious until he made it obvious that the lie he thought he had detected was bullshit.

Ironic that despite finding crappy reasons for suspecting DGB, you still play along with crappy reasoning of DGB herself.

Well, so far, your only stances have been OMGUS doesn't exist, I shall defend DGB to death, and FL must die. That really isn't much to work with.

The other thing interesting here is that you raise Yos defending her as relevant. By that stage, Yos hadn't flipped as scum and you had barely anything to say about Yos that wasn't relational to DGB. Suggests the likelihood of you trying to set DGB up.

nice try. I also rose the point you and Korts were defending her.

Overall, that is a megapost of bullshit to paint me red by using semantic arguments as well as blatant lies

Unvote, Vote Vollkan

This is an interesting point. o o

It is until you notice I state vollkan does it too, as well as Korts.

There were a few points where he addressed Yos in a negative light (most negative being where he agreed with Des's sentiments on Yos being a non-contributor), but there was no case formed or anything that would warrant Yos's defence of DGB being seen as a scumtell at that stage.

If you assume DGB is scum, well, then it only follows.

Since Korts claimed vig, I'm calling DGB, vollkan, and Yos. After all, DGB seems to love bussing as a tell. wouldn't surprise me if she engaged in it.

[forbiddanlight]

FL, why do you believe that Korts has claimed truthfully?

Because I like vollkan less out of the ones defending DGB. I suppose four scum is possible, but I don't see it as likely unless we have multiple scum groups.

Do you think RR is town?

I don't have much of a read on him.

So why didn't you kill FL? Instead you kill a player who you are less suspicious of than FL, who, from what I could tell, you were mildly suspicious of.

This however, is a very good point. As a vig, you should at least tentatively listen to the towns wishes. Furthermore, vigging is the best way to deal with chronic lurkers, and Sens should have been dead long ago.

[forbiddanlight]

What do you think of the other voters on that wagon? Why is she worse than them (e.g. roflcopter)?

I have more of an idea of rofl always being like that than I do of DGB. She's...odder, I guess the way she shifts. As for Korts, he's supposedly a vig. I like the SK theory though. His kills make more sense with that, and his breadcrumbs could be setting him up for that.

As for not paying enough attention to Yos2-des, I was distracted by vollkan and also haven't been engaged in this game. I'd say just lynch me since I didn't want to take it on so late in the game and didn't realize this much had happened, but are are a bit dangerously close to not being able to afford dead townies.

It's basically up to you all though, I'm kinda listless :S.

[forbiddanlight]

FOS: FL, I'd like a claim please.

Vanilla town.

[forbiddanlight]

So I'm dead? Well, good luck then. I'd like to apologize to Adel and all the players for not being able to put my top game into this. It was really rude of me to replace in and not be at 100%. I'll try to do better in the future.

[forbiddanlight]

Nyeh, not only did I not really give it my all like I wish I could have, but I was against a spot on town, replacing a lurker. I've come to the conclusion though that replacing lurker scum can be a double edged sword. You don't have to contradict yourself as much since there isn't much to contradict, but you have to do more work to look townie, and I just didn't have the ability/time to do it. I meant what I said after I was lynched about being sorry I couldn't give it my all. Either way, town played really well, and I think it was fun. Good game all.

[forbiddanlight]

I replaced in late. I'm not going to have an opinion. It's up to vollkan and Yos. And to an extent sens but his voice should probably be lesser also. I personally don't care. I'm so damn inconsistent I'll make sure I do something retardedly different if you call meta on me. And yes, I mean literally retarded like to the point I might get lynched. I've done it once already!