Veiled Committee Mafia: List Mods Edition [game over]

[AniX]

I want to remind everyone the last time I played forum mafia (I want to say 2004? early 2005?) I think only Dragon was on the site and one or more of you might not even have been born so please cut me some slack when I eventually lose the game for the town. I am effectively a newbie and since I just shuttered the newbie queue and fired the newbie mod, I really am rudderless right now.

Anyway, I kind of want to vote Save the Dragons, I really want to be able to say "I haven't played since before any living player joined". Can we make that happen?

[AniX]

I want to remind everyone the last time I played forum mafia (I want to say 2004? early 2005?) I think only Dragon was on the site and one or more of you might not even have been born so please cut me some slack when I eventually lose the game for the town. I am effectively a newbie and since I just shuttered the newbie queue and fired the newbie mod, I really am rudderless right now.

Anyway, I kind of want to vote Save the Dragons, I really want to be able to say "I haven't played since before any living player joined". Can we make that happen?

coffee tell, we got em

I don't drink coffee.

Anix...we had random voting stage back in the good ol' days too

Oh, I'm aware.

[AniX]

I see a lot of OUT OF GAME references to Ranger lying, I'm assuming it is some sort of meme about Ranger/millers.

Nevertheless, I am going to review it de novo and read it plainly. I presume there is some sort of kooky benefit to her claiming miller in the manner she did (first post, day 1, as a singular statement that she does not elaborate upon). I don't think there is any value in trying to assess what individual mods might think of, but I think there is tremendous value in trying to think "If you had the power to create any role and want to create an interesting one but also the burden of being a listmod and knowing if you craft one that is off-the-wall it will make you look bad and unfun, what would it be?

I see four main possibilities:
1. Ranger is trolling, either because it is Shitpost Day1 or because she is evil.
2. Ranger is actually some flavor of Miller and claiming miller activates some secondary power.
3. Ranger is fake-claiming to activate some sort of ability that triggers on that sort of post
4. Ranger is deliberately trying to get limmed in order to activate some lim-based power she has.

These are not necessarily exclusive, of course. She could be trolling because she is evil and also because trolling as evil gets her another power, either from doing so or from getting limmed.

[AniX]

because anix is obvious scum lol

Extreme Peter Falk voice:

"That's a very interesting insight. You know, my wife, lovely lady, but she is always accusing me of being scum so I can definitely see your point. I leave my dirty raincoat out, scum. I say this thing or that thing, scum. I gotta tell ya, it feels like I'm a made man a dozen times a day if I work too much and she gets really bent out of shape with me. So I hear you, I won't press you on why you are you trying to push me so hard."

I turn to leave, but hesitate for a second, as if reminded of something, before turning back around.

"One more thing, I just remembered this, completely slipped my mind. I read my role PM a day or two ago and then whoosh, didn't even connect the dots. Lots of distractions as new admin, I gotta tell you. Butif I'm scum, like you said, and I'm not trying to call you a liar here, but if I'm scum like you say...why did my role PM say town-aligned? Because I got to tell you, I haven't played Mafia in 20 years, but last I checked, maybe I'm wrong, 20 years is a long time after all, but last I checked the only people who try to kill off town-aligned roles...are scum themselves. Anyway, I'll get out of your hair now."

[AniX]

not reading lol it's my bed time but i typed this up ahead of time

i can (actually, must) give people control of my vote on even days. please fill out this application (only if you want...) and i will grant my vote to the towniest applicant. some of these questions are relevant to another aspect of my role and some are red herrings.

1) hypothetically, if you have a night action, would you prefer aiming at town, null, or scum? if you don't have a night action please don't out that and just pick what speaks to you so as to not divulge info. before you accuse me of rolefishing please keep in mind everyone is free to disregard this questionaire.
2) if i had control over *your* vote, would you be okay with me disregarding your opinions? i mean i'll generally only be donating my vote to people i townread, but that doesnt mean i'll agree with your reads. and if i'm relinquishing control, it's only fair for you to relinquish something in return!
3) if you could form a neighborhood with two other players on night one, who would you pick?
4) what is your level of spice tolerance? (this one is definitely just a fun red herring)

i look forward to your applications! i feel like my role is more antitown if i go about it privately. i'll reiterate that i can't vote on even days so prepare for some shitposts.

This makes me trust Skygazer because my role is equally kooky (I will not at this time explain why) so I suspect there was mod collusion on kookiness.

1. Hypothetically, it would depend on what my hypothetical role is, wouldn't it?
2. At this point, yes, as explained above.
3. You, as aformentioned, and Ranger (I guess!) as the only two semi-claimed roles and both whom I suspect have some level of wacky.
4. I don't eat enough spicy food to know because I only eat one meal a day so I only get 1/3 less chances to eat than most people

[AniX]

This makes me trust Skygazer because my role is equally kooky (I will not at this time explain why) so I suspect there was mod collusion on kookiness.

How many players are neg utilities this game?

I don't mean kooky as "neg utility" necessarily.

[AniX]

4. I don't eat enough spicy food to know because I only eat one meal a day so I only get 1/3 less chances to eat than most people

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No, I just hate eating food lol

[AniX]

not reading lol it's my bed time but i typed this up ahead of time

i can (actually, must) give people control of my vote on even days. please fill out this application (only if you want...) and i will grant my vote to the towniest applicant. some of these questions are relevant to another aspect of my role and some are red herrings.

1) hypothetically, if you have a night action, would you prefer aiming at town, null, or scum? if you don't have a night action please don't out that and just pick what speaks to you so as to not divulge info. before you accuse me of rolefishing please keep in mind everyone is free to disregard this questionaire.
2) if i had control over *your* vote, would you be okay with me disregarding your opinions? i mean i'll generally only be donating my vote to people i townread, but that doesnt mean i'll agree with your reads. and if i'm relinquishing control, it's only fair for you to relinquish something in return!
3) if you could form a neighborhood with two other players on night one, who would you pick?
4) what is your level of spice tolerance? (this one is definitely just a fun red herring)

i look forward to your applications! i feel like my role is more antitown if i go about it privately. i'll reiterate that i can't vote on even days so prepare for some shitposts.

This makes me trust Skygazer because my role is equally kooky (I will not at this time explain why) so I suspect there was mod collusion on kookiness.

1. Hypothetically, it would depend on what my hypothetical role is, wouldn't it?
2. At this point, yes, as explained above.
3. You, as aformentioned, and Ranger (I guess!) as the only two semi-claimed roles and both whom I suspect have some level of wacky.
4. I don't eat enough spicy food to know because I only eat one meal a day so I only get 1/3 less chances to eat than most people

Why r u answering this?

Because especially in a game like this, any or all requests could be a trigger for an ability or power. At this juncture, I do not believe mafia would begin by putting a focus on themselves by becoming the most high profile requester.

[AniX]

why is everyone answering question 1

[AniX]

that's not really an answer to why people are soft claiming

Did anyone else get really annoyed when they had to type out all of the complicated bullshit their role lets them do during confirmation? Like I’ve written shorter research papers.

Yes

[AniX]

has everyone posted atleast once yet? Specifically has everyone who is neg utility claimed? There's something fun we can do with the claims + I think it's appropriate for me to fullclaim based on gamestate soon(but also we already have a fairly breakable aspect i think)

I THINK we are missing two: Theta Alpine and JasonWazza

[AniX]

Reads, from most town to least town:
AniX (confirmed)
Skygazer
Bingle
DkKoba
Aureal
camelCasedSnivy
Cook
KayKimFanClub
Ircher
Random Nurse
JasonWazza
DragonEater70
Theta Alpine
Random Nurse
Doctor Drew
Alisae
Ranger
Save the Dragons

[AniX]

dragoneater is the most obvious town in the game

I kinda agree tbh, not because I did something very townie today but because none of ya'll did.

I am going to very hypocritically remark that we should stop memeing and start playing the game.

Also gonna do this just cause I can:
HURT: Skygazer, Bingle, Cook, Deal With The Devil

in case it isn't clear I know hurting doesn't do anything but you can think of it as a way of expressing "people I'm townreading enough to give a PT + vigshot to"

This post just put you at the absolute bottom of the trust list.

[AniX]

I know, like I said, you are now at the bottom.

[AniX]

I know, like I said, you are now at the bottom.

/serious
Care to explain why?

This is a game where it is quite clear there are roles that are triggered or controlled by how people post during the day. MULTIPLE users said or implied this was true of their role. Someone literally using the hurt tag and then giving an unconvincing "This is actually a joke, pay no attention to my specific use of this tag I was just shitposting" makes it look like you are trying to use the hurt tag to trigger an ability and then try to obscure you used it for that purpose. And if that is the case, one really must wonder what town role was written to feature the Hurt tag so prominently.

Vote DragonEater70

[AniX]

How convenient that Weird Dreams Mafia seems to have a joke to cover every single suspicious thing a user has done today. Truly the swiss army knife of games. All of this setting aside that a list mod making one or more abilities off this game that everyone seems to know about already would be perfectly mundane. Hell, I would say it would even be expected.

I am very comfortable with where my vote is right now. Either you haven't been reading the game (sus) and thus didn't know to be careful with post triggers or your post triggers on Hurt.

[AniX]

Why is anix still alive

Ah, here is the (now) second most suspicious person in the game, right on cue to cape for the first most suspicious.

Mafia Hunter Paragon is the Scummie for catching Mafia, right? I won't lie, I am going to be smug AF if my first game in 20 years I peg the mafia team day 1.

[AniX]

Do yourself a favor and read the first few oages of that game:

viewtopic.php?t=91177

just a word of advice, would ignore this lane of attack towards you and not turn it into a back and forth of this nitpicking. Make them broaden their read basically.

Already can see multiple people find it a bit of an absurd point *especially* with context that you provided.

I think you've projected town fairly strongly so I'm highly critical of anyone trying to latch onto stuff like this to push your slot

Oh ok, you want/need to do something to DragonEater tonight so you need to keep doing a "DragonEater is pure. DragonEater is good" bit. That's your neg-utility. I got it, no worries.

[AniX]

I'll come out and say, since I am already all but implying it, but my ability also triggers upon my performance of certain actions or lack thereof during the day. I will say it is not something that would amount to a posting restriction, voluntary or involuntary, nor does it compel me to mislead or otherwise say things I don't actually 100% believe.

Do yourself a favor and read the first few oages of that game:

viewtopic.php?t=91177

just a word of advice, would ignore this lane of attack towards you and not turn it into a back and forth of this nitpicking. Make them broaden their read basically.

Already can see multiple people find it a bit of an absurd point *especially* with context that you provided.

I think you've projected town fairly strongly so I'm highly critical of anyone trying to latch onto stuff like this to push your slot

Oh ok, you want/need to do something to DragonEater tonight so you need to keep doing a "DragonEater is pure. DragonEater is good" bit. That's your neg-utility. I got it, no worries.

JFC can we stop speculating about abilities relating to what you right in thread and actually focus on scumhunting?

And you still haven't explain why you scumread StD, I'm waiting for your explanation.

I never really SCUMREAD StD, If I felt "StD is basically confirmed mafia" I would have just said that. But lists only work in the two dimensions and someone has to be at the bottom. Given the way StD had been acting, my trust was towards him the least.

As to your first point, in a game so ability-dependent and focused as this, figuring out abilities IS scumhunting.

Why is anix still alive

Ah, here is the (now) second most suspicious person in the game, right on cue to cape for the first most suspicious.

Mafia Hunter Paragon is the Scummie for catching Mafia, right? I won't lie, I am going to be smug AF if my first game in 20 years I peg the mafia team day 1.

no offense but this is kinda a series of pretty shallow takes that doesn't really consider the context or attempt to find supporting evidence ...
You may have noticed that I have yet to move my vote of you. At some point early on that vote secretly became serious because of the aforementioned "coffee tell" joke I told. It was actually scummy to me that you were making preemptive excuses and I was waiting to see how you would trend. To start scumreading people with processes like this is concerning to me. Granted I cannot always attribute to malice what could be explained by something else - so I'm laying out what I personally am observing to you to see if I can redirect you to a more effective line, if that is to prove better your point against dragoneater/std with stronger arguments, or to acknowledge the read was premature and/or has more evidence pointing to the opposite, we don't care - just that you help us see better your process and to strengthen it to get a higher potential of play out.

Yeah, ok, two consecutive "Let me try to give you some tips on how to play the game better" but also they are the most generic handholding a newbie stuff imaginable, this is DEFINITELY a post restriction.

[AniX]

"You can do XYZ ability BUT you need to treat everyone/people you want to target like it's baby's first mafia game" Twilight of the Newbie Mods, maybe?

[AniX]

Yeah, ok, two consecutive "Let me try to give you some tips on how to play the game better" but also they are the most generic handholding a newbie stuff imaginable, this is DEFINITELY a post restriction.

What the hell? Do you actually think there will be a role that forces someone to adopt a certain attitude in posting? How can that even be enforced?

By the moderator's subjective judgment? It is absolutely enforceable. My role has a mod's discretion portion too, although it is whether I DIDN'T say something (although that restriction doesn't really HURT hurt me, just limits my ability for the night) rather than said it, but I know for a fact the mod is sitting there judging whether certain subjective post content is fulfilled or not for at least one role.

[AniX]

Anix, I'd appreciate you address the point I made about expanding on your read on Dragoneater, as if you believe it's a slam dunk thing that they are scummy for the role thing, then it should go without question you can look at the rest of their play and see how that looks from a scum pov, or if it doesn't match up. Deflecting doesn't work on me, I'm stubborn ;P

I disagree very strongly with the philosophy that posts on day 1 that are basically all shades of "here are my first impressions" are of any value whatsoever in guaranteeing someone is town or not. The rest of their play is mostly empty calorie filler that has no alignment content. I could absolutely see scum posting all the things he has posted, especially if he has some sort of goofy ability (like we all seem to) that need a bit of time to figure out how to try to weave it in without people noticing.

[AniX]

A game with a massive amount of post restrictions/post dependent roles changes shifts the "this is scumposting/this is townposting" metric because there are going to be A LOT of people posting in a stilted or unnatural way.

[AniX]

I have knowledge of at least 1 with the scum team basically out here confessing by making it seem they have one if there isn't at least more.

anix do you think that acting like a newbie is an ENFORCEABLE post restriction?

Not acting like a newbie, acting like EVERYONE ELSE is a newbie. Or something that resembles that. It could be that the restriction is less specific and DkKoba has interpreted it that way/felt their best path to adhere to that restriction is that way.

[AniX]

I've played a lot of Blood on the Clocktower recently, which is neither here nor there except there are a lot of roles that are VERY strict and VERY subjective about what you can say and what you can do and it doesn't really cause as many problems as you would think to enforce these subjective judgments of a mod.

Obviously Mafia is not BotC but the principle of "Can a game mod effectively enforce a subjective post restriction in a social deduction game" holds.

[AniX]

and you think koba wouldnt admit that when we were outing neg utils?

The first thing I'd write if I was writing a goofy post restriction is "You can't talk about having a goofy post restriction". That would defeat the entire purpose of the trade-off if you could go "I have a post restriction. Interpret everything I say through the lens of me having a post restriction"

[AniX]

i don’t think the listmods have THAT much malice in their hearts to force annoying post restrictions on people

I don't think it is FORCED. I think it is "If you post in this way, you get access to this ability." with the user free to choose to activate or not activate that as their needs require. I think DkKoba could stop at any time, I think they just want their ability. I think the same about Aureal and the informerial bit they are doing.

how is anix obvtown either

First, we ignore literally every mechpost, because mechposts have nothing to do with alignment, but rather mechanical intelligence, and mechanical intelligence is not AI. Second, we realize that AniX comes from a time when the Earth had yet to cool and the atmosphere was still mostly sulfur, and so their posting also needs to be viewed through that lens where post restrictions and mechsolves are common place and that's just how town is supposed to approach the game. Third, we ask ourselves "Does scum really fake a readslist with two players who haven't posted surrounding a player who has if they're tryharding". Fourth we realize that if we look tryhard up in the dictionary there's a picture of AniX staring at a picture of Taylor Swift.

Ani is crazy performative here, but that's more because it's Ani than any actually alignment indicative thing and Koba pushing the slot as surface level is actually skeevy as fuck.

This is the first game of its kind, to my knowledge, where multiple experts in Mafia were called to each create roles, independently of one another, and then a game was run around those roles but also I suspect were encouraged to be a bit cheeky about it. The mechanics don't go together, the mechanics are wacky, and we can exploit the cracks of both those attributes we'll be in a better place as a town. Especially on day 1, night 0 where few if anyone has any information beyond vibes.

Not acting like a newbie, acting like EVERYONE ELSE is a newbie

Nah that's Koba.

It's like me acting like everyone else should learn how to use goddamn power roles.

Yeah, but they being artificially nice about it.

[AniX]

See? Look at this. Every post of theirs is a "Sonic Sez" in this game.

[AniX]

name 3 substantive thing anix has said

koba says this knowing that there is only 2 thing (joke)

From what I read it's 0.5, so I'd line to see what others say. There is a lot of thumb twiddling from anix around this and Idt they are even bothering to solve anyone during this which is telling tbh.

Solving for roles in this specific game is more valuable and substantive than you "solving" your day 1 vibes or whatever you are trying to assert you are doing I am not.

[AniX]

I'll catch up and respond properly to everything in about six hours.

Meanwhile, I wanted to say I legitimately believe at this point a truthful massclaim would likely break the game in favor of the town.

The scum will lie, and ATTEMPT counterplay, yet I believe in this game specifically, they'll have no ability to.

The listmods submitted roles, and xyzzy created a setup from those roles.

Normally, the reason for avoiding a D1 massclaim is because scum have counterplay.

With how town/scum roles were designed, I don’t think they'll actually HAVE the normal level of counterplay. They may even have none.

im not opposed to massclaim and as a person massclaim sounds fun

I have been playing with the expectation a massclaim was going to happen sooner rather than later and trying to identify user powers NOW so they can't make up some bullshit later.

I agree that AniX hasn't done much this game except throwing together a readlist where StD was at the bottom and NOT EVEN SCUMREADING StD, and then scumreading people based on weird mech theories, but........ Okay fine you win, they haven't doen anything townie this game. Still, I don't know if they are scum. It just feels like they have NO IDEA what is going on and how the game is supposed to be played nowadays. I mean they literally played last when I was in kindergarten. That's a looong time ago.

Just because the modern meta is different than older metas doesn't mean the modern meta is an enlightened mindset that caveman users of previous generations cannot comprehend. This isn't "Dark Age science vs modern medicine", it is philosophy vs philosophy and there is a reason we didn't stop teaching Plato or Kant just because we have Singer or Nussbaum. You MIGHT have a point if we were discussing a game with a modern and well-known structure, where there is known quantities in play that the modern meta developed around to efficiently identify. Obviously, metas developed to play in specific game formats are better in those formats. But this ISN'T such a game format. This is a wacky game with wacky roles that could be anything and could interact with other roles in any way, none of which is known to players except their own (and their mafia teammates potentially, we don't know if mafia has daytalk activated). Our techniques are different but the modern one isn't automatically better for being newer.

[AniX]

Oh, I was going to make a post detailing all the instances where Koba "gave advice" in a stilted post restricty way but I ended binning the post and my vote change with it. I'll still make the post when I have a moment (hopefully later tonight because I'll be gone from midday tomorrow until midday saturday), but let me get the vote change out of the way first.

Unvote DragonEater70
Vote DkKoba

[AniX]

Oh, I was going to make a post detailing all the instances where Koba "gave advice" in a stilted post restricty way but I ended binning the post and my vote change with it. I'll still make the post when I have a moment (hopefully later tonight because I'll be gone from midday tomorrow until midday saturday), but let me get the vote change out of the way first.

Unvote DragonEater70
Vote DkKoba

I have the 'tism and am intentionally putting in an effort to not sound rude/condescending while still trying to get my point across. There's your explanation for "stiltedness".
I will inform you that many a scum player has seen my playstyle, thought it would be an easy slam dunk miselimination, then had it bite them in the ass


For you to get defensive and attempt to deflect onto me instead of explaining yourself in response, is a horrible look. I'm trying to get answers out of you. You still have not given them and then have the audacity to then go as far as to pretend like my speaking style is "scummy".

I've seen your playstyle by reading games you were involved in before. It's not that. I'm not talking about your speaking style, I'm talking about how your responses to certain people and ONLY certain people involve you ending what you are saying with a diatribe where you go "here are so pro-tips on how you can play mafia better". It's not HOW you are saying things (which are no more or less organic than how I talk), it is what you are saying, your "Here is another pro-tip how basic mafia game-playing" doesn't come across as an organic thing you organically determined to include as part of an argument.

Answers about WHAT exactly? You asked me one question and it was a vague "If you think DragonEater is scummy, as you claim...how do you explain why I got good vibes from his posts?" to which I responded with "I don't think anything he posted is something town is more or less likely to post than scum, so why would I account for it?"

[AniX]

I know, like I said, you are now at the bottom.

/serious
Care to explain why?

This is a game where it is quite clear there are roles that are triggered or controlled by how people post during the day. MULTIPLE users said or implied this was true of their role. Someone literally using the hurt tag and then giving an unconvincing "This is actually a joke, pay no attention to my specific use of this tag I was just shitposting" makes it look like you are trying to use the hurt tag to trigger an ability and then try to obscure you used it for that purpose. And if that is the case, one really must wonder what town role was written to feature the Hurt tag so prominently.

Vote DragonEater70

can you point to any other part of their play that implies they are scum bc frankly that's easily overlookable when compared to their very clearly pure posting

Like I think dragoneater has shown a pretty eager willingness to solve and curiosity in their play that is towny in nature - there are points of light naivety that make me feel that they are definitely not informed and their explanations feel natural and at ease, minus the frustration of what is undoubtedly an untrue accusation against their slot.

Im on mobile but I struggle to see how dragoneater is anything but independent. Call it TMI if you want, but even in scum me world that still implies they are town.

Anix, I'd appreciate you address the point I made about expanding on your read on Dragoneater, as if you believe it's a slam dunk thing that they are scummy for the role thing, then it should go without question you can look at the rest of their play and see how that looks from a scum pov, or if it doesn't match up. Deflecting doesn't work on me, I'm stubborn ;P

Anix, I'd appreciate you address the point I made about expanding on your read on Dragoneater, as if you believe it's a slam dunk thing that they are scummy for the role thing, then it should go without question you can look at the rest of their play and see how that looks from a scum pov, or if it doesn't match up. Deflecting doesn't work on me, I'm stubborn ;P

I disagree very strongly with the philosophy that posts on day 1 that are basically all shades of "here are my first impressions" are of any value whatsoever in guaranteeing someone is town or not. The rest of their play is mostly empty calorie filler that has no alignment content. I could absolutely see scum posting all the things he has posted, especially if he has some sort of goofy ability (like we all seem to) that need a bit of time to figure out how to try to weave it in without people noticing.

Like you asked the top question, reiterated it twice, I then, realizing you actually want me to account for your unsourced vibes, answered it, and now you are still claiming to want to get answers I refuse to give...where's the new question? Is it V/LA? Is it going to arrive by pony express?

[AniX]

Very unusual, bordering on strange, bordering on bizarre that you directly claimed, less than an hour and a half ago, that the purpose of your posting was to get answers I was refusing to give...but can't seem to find a question to ask me when pressed.

[AniX]

So just to clarify: When you wrote

I'm trying to get answers out of you. You still have not given them

You were mistaken? That was not actually your goal and I actually HAD answered all your questions? How miraculous this change of heart occurred so quickly.

[AniX]

Yeah, ok. That's what I thought, DkKoba. And another substantive well-sourced accusation, StD. I'm not sure if you are Mafia, but you are definitely acting antitown.

Moving on to what I think will ACTUALLY help the town, I'm tempted to go very Danixian about this and say we might want to consider limming me (revealing roles on death are still standard, right?). I originally wanted to get at least one of my one-shot abilities off but game proceedings took me away from my activation clauses (I think one is still potentially available but not yet activated). And I don't think my abilities are SO good they need to be preserved at all costs (and honestly their activation clauses are a bit tricky so I might never actually get them off) but I do think my role represents a good cross-section of speculated parts of the game board that limming me will prove exist and give support to those who were claiming or hinting they exist as part of their role too.

I think I'd only want us to do this if we get a mass claim or at least a partial mass claim going because that's when it's most effective: confirming the possibility of certain elements within the game state with users already committed to supporting or denying their knowledge and participate in that element of the game state, rather than me dying and AFTERWARDS mafia being able to go "oh what a coincidence, that element is part of MY role too". (Obviously, I reserve the right to be like "Hmmm, that claim is so very sus I think we should switch to XYZ" but don't read into that as me disagreeing this plan is still with merit and we can still kill me if my arguments don't really go anywhere)

It might be a very old school perspective (although honestly, I don't really recall THAT much mechtalk even then), but I think mechbreaking this game is how it is going to be won and I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is on that.

[AniX]

I am a newbie to any or all specific elements and jargon that has emerged since 2005 and I wanted to warn people that I would not be playing in a very "modern" way. I am not a newbie to the basic tenets and calculations of Mafia such that I would not understand the costs, benefits, and risks of having and using two votes.

[AniX]

I am a newbie to any or all specific elements and jargon that has emerged since 2005 and I wanted to warn people that I would not be playing in a very "modern" way. I am not a newbie to the basic tenets and calculations of Mafia such that I would not understand the costs, benefits, and risks of having and using two votes.

u r not answering that questionnaire for honest reasons.

I was very open that I was answering the questionnaire because I believe it relates to a trigger of Sky. You can even read about it in the post you quoted the LAST time you quoted me.

[AniX]

tbh bingle with anix is exactly the level 1 combo that gives me pause if it's not too easy and they're just kinda just happening to hit those notes rn, but it's not like for anix that they've attempted to be any more open about their reasoning (although to be fair players are readable beyond this but certain ways of going about this make me doubt this? Like one has to wonder how I went from one of anix's top townreads into a scumread that is a vote coincidentally after I clarified my stance on them.)
Like the argument that I white knighted dragoneater doesn't really hold up bc I said the slot was obvtown b4 anyone pushed it

In fact it's odd that anix was not curious about that either bc where did that peogrssion go like why did the read just change and nothing that looks unresolved from a pov of someone starting to suspect our 2 slots makes sense from a genuine pov

I think it has been pretty well established that I am not going off vibes and reads of tone or trying to read posts from "scum/town pov" but with an eye to reading people's roles and seeing how their roles fit their posting and why someone with that role would post in one way or the other. You can certainly criticize that as bad play. But that is very different from "AniX is scum because he isn't playing the game the same as me". When I made the list, I didn't yet have a feel for what your role was and I WAS going off vibes. Once I had a feel for your role, I started using that instead. The read didn't change, the thing I was reading changed.

[AniX]

Me: "I am deciding things based on what I believe people's roles are"
You: "But why haven't you considered DragonEater's vibes?"
Me: "I do not believe that is a valuable criteria at this point and in this game."
You, later: "Really weird AniX hasn't explained why the vibes randomly changed for me and why he was not curious about other vibe-based criteria"

[AniX]

For the record, I still think a massclaim followed by a lim of me (or another user who wants to step forward and believes they have a role that covers good cross-section of elements present in other roles) is the way to go. It's a shot and chaser of seeing what role elements match between users, what role elements don't, and then confirming at least some of the rule elements that exist, and working down from there.

[AniX]

Me: "I am deciding things based on what I believe people's roles are"
You: "But why haven't you considered DragonEater's vibes?"
Me: "I do not believe that is a valuable criteria at this point and in this game."
You, later: "Really weird AniX hasn't explained why the vibes randomly changed for me and why he was not curious about other vibe-based criteria"

To clear up anyone reading: this is Politifact Verified False. What was asked was an entirely open ended question about their thought process, nothing specific was nitpicked. They were asked to elaborate on where the change came from, and now it's being framed as if I mentioned "vibes", and not simply asked

This has been a back and forth for a bit and i kinda have given up by this point trying to get an answer bc I have concluded the reason it hasn't come yet is because it won't because anix is mafia caught in an awkward situation of not wanting to elaborate a fake read progession.

Like it's been a cycle of lame excuses why anix can't look through and find more points that indicate dragoneater or I are scum, and frankly their initial reasons were classic scum reasonings(although not necessarily always scum, but scummy logic nevertheless)

Keep up, we already did this bit and it ended with you getting mad I asked you if you had a second question you wanted answered.

[AniX]

Me: "I am deciding things based on what I believe people's roles are"
You: "But why haven't you considered DragonEater's vibes?"
Me: "I do not believe that is a valuable criteria at this point and in this game."
You, later: "Really weird AniX hasn't explained why the vibes randomly changed for me and why he was not curious about other vibe-based criteria"

To clear up anyone reading: this is Politifact Verified False. What was asked was an entirely open ended question about their thought process, nothing specific was nitpicked. They were asked to elaborate on where the change came from, and now it's being framed as if I mentioned "vibes", and not simply asked

This has been a back and forth for a bit and i kinda have given up by this point trying to get an answer bc I have concluded the reason it hasn't come yet is because it won't because anix is mafia caught in an awkward situation of not wanting to elaborate a fake read progession.

Like it's been a cycle of lame excuses why anix can't look through and find more points that indicate dragoneater or I are scum, and frankly their initial reasons were classic scum reasonings(although not necessarily always scum, but scummy logic nevertheless)

Keep up, we already did this bit and it ended with you getting mad I asked you if you had a second question you wanted answered.

Listen I have given you the standards set to be potentially townread by me(granted thats not the only way but its the best known active way of getting there), if you want to sit down and be cross and not allow me to understand what you are thinking , I can't work with that.
Like the idea is to broaden your view, look at contextual evidence and not just the surface level and then present a conclusion.
I'm not like I used to be - I'm not shut down to reading you town. I see a small percent chance you might be. I don't know you. You might genuinely think this way due to the lack of mafia experience and I'm just placing your standards too high. But I can't figure that out without basic answers, or acknowledgements that things are proven not sufficient evidence.
Humility when proven wrong is a pro town trait.

Prove to us that you aren't pushing dragon and me in bad faith with fake looking reasoning.

Again, you are asking me for evidence on a criteria that I openly state I did not use. I understand your question perfectly. But I cannot give you what doesn't exist. As I have told you, I did not use "contextual evidence" in the formation of my read, because I do not believe this early in the game and specifically in this game that is valuable. I did use evidence based on what I am interpreting yours and his roles to be and how those might fit into a town/mafia framework and how your usage of those roles might fit into a town mafia framework. So when you ask me to show you contextual evidence or you'll read me as scum, what do you want me to say to that? Do you want me to make up some evidence just so your disagreement of my criteria for what I am basing reads on doesn't turn into suspicion?

You may not like me using role speculation and role speculation only as my current read system, you may not feel like it is good play, you might even feel it is very bad play, but that is very different from me not answering your question or "being cross and not allowing you to understand".

[AniX]

Like it really feels like you are equating "using a basis for reads I don't use" for "bad faith" even though I have been almost aggressively open about that being my sole focus right now.

[AniX]

Yeah, but they being artificially nice about it.

I haven't been reading 'nice' into Koba's play. Condescending, sure, but that's not really AI for them. What I think is slightly scummy from them is the push on you, which reads incredibly surface level and doesn't sound to me like something Koba would push. To reference TM, this is like Fate in my game. You're both from a completely different era of mafia and in that game there was a significant amount of taking that into consideration that just feels absent here.

I mean in their specific interactions with DragonEater, there is an element of stilted niceness not present in any other interaction with a user in this game. I know my role, while definitely not working the same way, does have an element of being forced into making a choice early on and having to engage with a user in a certain way if you want to use your ability (as I said earlier, I ended up abandoning my choice due to other things of more import imo and now I don't have a viable way to get back on them today)

[AniX]

Yes?

Like, their posting is performative as shit. But anyone who has ever talked to AniX could tell you that. For example: (Was gonna link a thread that I now think is in the SPeezy cause I can't find it easily on this account) that time when they posted like 400 paragraphs as a protest against popularity contests.

Saying AniX is scummy here is like the easiest stance you could possibly take.

It was only 315, first of all.

[AniX]

anix barely has reads for someone posting with such verbosity

I think I'm actually pretty above the curve at reading people's roles on day 1 without a night having occurred for us to even know what COULD happen at night.

[AniX]

Ranger: Possibly forced to claim Miller either legitimately or illegitimately to active some power
Skygazer: Some sort of ability (possibly their legitimate assertion of vote trading) related to a questionnaire perhaps.
Aureal: Something related to their MLM posting shtick. Possibly recruitment for neighborhood or cult (although there was no cult at base, I guess this could activate a cult under certain conditions)
DragonEater: Hurt Tag usage as power activator
Koba: Artifice of posting towards DragonEater and DragonEater alone

Maybe I'm WAY out of the modern meta, but if having a pretty decent to solid leads on at least 5 roles of other players in a complex game with brand new roles is "barely", I'd love to see your 6+.

Yes?

Like, their posting is performative as shit. But anyone who has ever talked to AniX could tell you that. For example: (Was gonna link a thread that I now think is in the SPeezy cause I can't find it easily on this account) that time when they posted like 400 paragraphs as a protest against popularity contests.

Saying AniX is scummy here is like the easiest stance you could possibly take.

It was only 315, first of all.

I can't read that link cause some administrators won't let alts have speezy access.

Alts have been allowed to have Speakeasy Access for over a year now (since June 21, 2022). ONE of your accounts just has to meet the requirements.

[AniX]

And I'm not saying "My reads are confirmed right and you all are idiots for not immediately voting as I demand". I get people can doubt these are their roles or doubt my implications about what those role mean in terms of alignment or anything else. it's Day 1, nobody trusts anything and I'm not 100% in on any of them. But that's different from "AniX has no reads and is just talking to talk". I'm been pretty focused on talking about what roles I think people have and how we can get more roles from people this whole time.

[AniX]

anix barely has reads for someone posting with such verbosity

I think I'm actually pretty above the curve at reading people's roles on day 1 without a night having occurred for us to even know what COULD happen at night.

i feel like instead of answering a simple question you seem to get into a pedantic argument with koba about whether or not koba is going to ask you more than one question

what are you reading about people's roles that makes you think koba and dragoneater are scum

if you answered and i missed it, great, but i didn't see it

That's what I'm saying though, I told Koba "I suspect DragonEater because of the Hurt tag thing and that lends itself, in my mind, to a mafia post condition" and Koba went "Ok, but I read his posts as pure and townie, why are you refusing to explain that" and then the whole argument ensued with Koba refusing to accept I don't need to justify not seeing purity just because they claim they do.

why aren't more people taking it

taking what

Bingle said "viewing me as scum is an easy position to take" presumably STD means "take the position I am scum"

[AniX]

DragonEater: Hurt Tag usage as power activator

what is this even based on

The fact multiple people have indicated they have a post based trigger (myself included, so I know there is at least one) and DragonEater's awkward dance for trying to include the tag. It was strengthened when Koba, who I was independently reading as connected to DragonEater in some way, started really getting aggressive with me RIGHT after I pointed it out. I am still not SURE of it, could legitimately be something else or nothing at all, which is why I'm voting Koba and not DragonEater, but it is Day 1 and I don't think I need to be sure of everything to still think it is worthy of bringing up and seeing what sticks.

[AniX]

anix barely has reads for someone posting with such verbosity

I think I'm actually pretty above the curve at reading people's roles on day 1 without a night having occurred for us to even know what COULD happen at night.

Why are you doing that? Is it a subconscious thing?

Because I think mechsolving is THE most important part of this game right now.

[AniX]

And I'm not saying "My reads are confirmed right and you all are idiots for not immediately voting as I demand". I get people can doubt these are their roles or doubt my implications about what those role mean in terms of alignment or anything else. it's Day 1, nobody trusts anything and I'm not 100% in on any of them. But that's different from "AniX has no reads and is just talking to talk". I'm been pretty focused on talking about what roles I think people have and how we can get more roles from people this whole time.

I disagree. Roles are not indicative of alignment and therefore are a poor basis for reads.

Roles can be analyzed for likelihood of alignment and the intersection of what that means though: Like if someone has a role that interferes with voting, obviously there is no CERTAINTY (but there is rarely any certainty even with other kind of reads so that's no flaw of the read specifically) but as people have been saying, it certainly makes it LESS likely to be a scum role.

[AniX]

Ranger: Possibly forced to claim Miller either legitimately or illegitimately to active some power
Skygazer: Some sort of ability (possibly their legitimate assertion of vote trading) related to a questionnaire perhaps.
Aureal: Something related to their MLM posting shtick. Possibly recruitment for neighborhood or cult (although there was no cult at base, I guess this could activate a cult under certain conditions)
DragonEater: Hurt Tag usage as power activator
Koba: Artifice of posting towards DragonEater and DragonEater alone

Maybe I'm WAY out of the modern meta, but if having a pretty decent to solid leads on at least 5 roles of other players in a complex game with brand new roles is "barely", I'd love to see your 6+.

i don't think any of these are accurate

"AniX's reads are not accurate" and "AniX has no reads" are exclusive positions from one another.

[AniX]

someone asked me about this

because anix is obvious scum lol

Anix has felt off since the beginning of the game, trying to blame their weirdness on being from a different era and not voting me but sussing me early is kind of weird. Since then, their actions have only gotten weirder.

I want to be clear, my weirdness is independent from me being from a different era.

[AniX]

in response to random nurses comments on my posts
at least the ones i could figure out
i meant my role would not be part of a game breaking strategy
i would still claim it if we did a mass claim

having said that
i am not sure that the listmods would submit roles that lend themselves to a game breaking setup
this is not a reviewed game but it also is not a upick or fully randomized setup either

Yeah, but if they didn't consult with one another, they could have easily produced roles that individually couldn't break a game but together with a wacky role they couldn't have anticipated might.

[AniX]

Ranger: Possibly forced to claim Miller either legitimately or illegitimately to active some power
Skygazer: Some sort of ability (possibly their legitimate assertion of vote trading) related to a questionnaire perhaps.
Aureal: Something related to their MLM posting shtick. Possibly recruitment for neighborhood or cult (although there was no cult at base, I guess this could activate a cult under certain conditions)
DragonEater: Hurt Tag usage as power activator
Koba: Artifice of posting towards DragonEater and DragonEater alone

Maybe I'm WAY out of the modern meta, but if having a pretty decent to solid leads on at least 5 roles of other players in a complex game with brand new roles is "barely", I'd love to see your 6+.

i don't think any of these are accurate

"AniX's reads are not accurate" and "AniX has no reads" are exclusive positions from one another.

No they aren't

If I take a math test and my answers are "banana" and "orange" I haven't done any math and my answers are invalid

What is this

Honestly, what the fuck are you even talking about here? If my reads don't exist, they can't be accurate or inaccurate because nonexistent reads don't have accuracy values. If my reads DO exist, I must by necessity have them since they...exist. That is not the case with whatever madlibs you are playing here, where getting banana has no causal relationship to orange.

This really seems like less "I don't believe you", which would be fine, and more "I am going to twist anything you say into something I can criticize". I'm not sure it's scummy, but it's definitely goofy.

[AniX]

I'll paraphrase

Me: anix doesn't have reads
Anix: here are my reads
Me: no those don't count because they are nonsense. You dont have reads.
Anix: you didn't say it in the specific way I require you to say it

W/e I'm disengaging we can continue this stupid argument when I go back to voting you

STD: "You don't have reads"
AniX: "Actually I do, here they are"
STD: "No that doesn't count because I have secretly determined they are nonsense, no I will not elaborate"
AniX: "That isn't an argument"
STD: "YOU ARE BEING PEDANTIC AGAIN!"

Yeah, ok.

[AniX]

I kinda think anix has strong potential to be town but std is right on the perspective that the reads are kinda derived from objectively poor reasoning

When solving with mech, it's never about

"this role sounds scummy"

and as I mentioned earlier, open role usage/claiming in role madness is objectively more likely to be town.

That is not even my argument. It has never been my argument. You will not find that argument from me about any role at any point in this game.

The two people I have attempted to explore if they were mafia through roles are someone who's ability I suspect REQUIRES open role usage to work (and thus it being openly used would not be town-aligned) and someone whose role I am arguing is different from the role they are suggesting they are.

[AniX]

Me when I start an argument and realize I am actually wrong and continuing it makes me look bad:

Disengaging

[AniX]

Anyway, I probably won't post again until Saturday EST, it's my brother's wedding tomorrow and I'm leaving now.

[AniX]

Catching up in bursts after my brother's wedding:

Me: "I am deciding things based on what I believe people's roles are"
You: "But why haven't you considered DragonEater's vibes?"
Me: "I do not believe that is a valuable criteria at this point and in this game."
You, later: "Really weird AniX hasn't explained why the vibes randomly changed for me and why he was not curious about other vibe-based criteria"

So you scumread people based on their hypithetical role? And you think that scum is likelier to have Koba's hypothetical post restriction that town?

Rolereading is no more hypothetical than scumreading. It is an educated guess based on things that have occurred in the game which is ultimately speculation. I think Koba's post restriction is more likely than not scum, yes, especially given how they've played it thus far.

Ranger: Possibly forced to claim Miller either legitimately or illegitimately to active some power
Skygazer: Some sort of ability (possibly their legitimate assertion of vote trading) related to a questionnaire perhaps.
Aureal: Something related to their MLM posting shtick. Possibly recruitment for neighborhood or cult (although there was no cult at base, I guess this could activate a cult under certain conditions)
DragonEater: Hurt Tag usage as power activator
Koba: Artifice of posting towards DragonEater and DragonEater alone

Maybe I'm WAY out of the modern meta, but if having a pretty decent to solid leads on at least 5 roles of other players in a complex game with brand new roles is "barely", I'd love to see your 6+.

Yes?

Like, their posting is performative as shit. But anyone who has ever talked to AniX could tell you that. For example: (Was gonna link a thread that I now think is in the SPeezy cause I can't find it easily on this account) that time when they posted like 400 paragraphs as a protest against popularity contests.

Saying AniX is scummy here is like the easiest stance you could possibly take.

It was only 315, first of all.

I can't read that link cause some administrators won't let alts have speezy access.

Alts have been allowed to have Speakeasy Access for over a year now (since June 21, 2022). ONE of your accounts just has to meet the requirements.

I'm sorry AniX but if you're town you gotta stop mech solving and start sorting people by their playstyle, OR at least have really compelling arguments behind your mech solving which atm you don't.

You are welcome to have this opinion on whether mechreading is valuable in this game, but I strongly disagree that random day one guessing based on what someone said in a weird tone or whatever is LESS compelling than mechreading right now. My mechreads are AT LEAST as compelling as any argument put forward for scumreading any individual in this game vs any other individual.

[AniX]

btw, @AniX
I noticed your pronouns say none, does that mean I should use they/them or whatever I'd like to or what?

No pronouns feels right so any one you happen to feel compelled to use works as well as any other.

I'll paraphrase

Me: anix doesn't have reads
Anix: here are my reads
Me: no those don't count because they are nonsense. You dont have reads.
Anix: you didn't say it in the specific way I require you to say it

W/e I'm disengaging we can continue this stupid argument when I go back to voting you

Just read what this was about and I agree with StD - it's true that if you read what they said in a LITERAL way, then they've said two contradicting things. But what StD was CONVEYING is that AniX does not have any ACTUAL reads - all their "reads" are based on mostly invalid mechanical reasoning (which neither me nor StD would count as reads but more as speculations/mechsolve attempts). Therefore they are not reads, is what StD was saying.

So me using what people said and how they act to try to sort out what their role is invalid and speculation because you don't agree with it...as opposed to scumreads, well known objective standards that everyone has to be on the same page for before they are called reads.

Vote DragonEater70

. I should have stuck with my gut. Too many goofy attempts to deflect from themselves and that whole rage post was WEIRD.

[AniX]

(I wrote this post BEFORE my most recent one but it got separated as I was quoting PMs, it should come, argument chronology-wise, before that post)

DragonEater: Hurt Tag usage as power activator

what is this even based on

The fact multiple people have indicated they have a post based trigger (myself included, so I know there is at least one) and DragonEater's awkward dance for trying to include the tag. It was strengthened when Koba, who I was independently reading as connected to DragonEater in some way, started really getting aggressive with me RIGHT after I pointed it out. I am still not SURE of it, could legitimately be something else or nothing at all, which is why I'm voting Koba and not DragonEater, but it is Day 1 and I don't think I need to be sure of everything to still think it is worthy of bringing up and seeing what sticks.

Awkward dance? Have you been reading the thread at all? This game is STACKED with references to past games, and mainly references to Weird Dreams Mafia. And holy crap are you like blind to context or something? Do you have no sense of humor? What is this shit?

You getting THIS upset about me not believing it was just a reference instead of just being like "sorry, it was goofy to make a reference not everyone would get" (like you already did!) makes me MORE suspicious of you because it makes it seem like you thought this "It's a reference! Definitely nothing more!" was going to be a slam dunk defense of activating your role ability that nobody would possible impugn and are so very upset it got accidentally stumbled upon.

[AniX]

Does Doomed Treestump have a stat block?

[AniX]

Does Doomed Treestump have a stat block?

stat block?

I am trying to assess what a Doomed Treestump player, so turned, can do (and/or if Theta has access to that information).

I have information that lends itself to me very heavily believing this is a true bill claim, I am aware of another "change/modify someone else's role" mechanic.

[AniX]

I am happy to fully claim. I'd prefer not to do it if there is any interest in killing me to reveal game elements though, as to lock people into their roles BEFORE my game elements get revealed.

If there is no interest in this, I'll fullclaim gladly though.

[AniX]

If nobody objects by then, I'll fullclaim tomorrow (or sooner if it looks like the day is about to end)

[AniX]

theres no day deadline

I mean if people get on some sort of bandwagon, I don't want to make it seem like I am trying to run out the clock, hoping a elimination will happen in the meanwhile, so I don't need to claim

[AniX]

again waiting on ranger and anix to claim

Give it until tomorrow to see if limming me has any legs/missing players claim so everyone is locked in, but yeah it is not looking good for My Plan.

[AniX]

again waiting on ranger and anix to claim

Give it until tomorrow to see if limming me has any legs/missing players claim so everyone is locked in, but yeah it is not looking good for My Plan.

gonna guess you're also a death miller like koba?

I am not.

[AniX]

votecount 1.08

right as i began working on this votecount, a popup appeared on my screen that said "how likely are you to recommend a windows pc to a friend?" and i dunno what the answer was before, but now it's zero. i actually think everyone should use an operating system that never, ever shows a popup like that.

2 players voting for DkKoba (AniX, Ircher)
2 players voting for Doctor Drew (Ranger, Random Nurse)
2 players voting for Bingle (Save The Dragons, camelCasedSnivy)
1 player voting for Ranger (Doctor Drew)
1 player voting for Random Nurse (KatyKimFanClub)
1 player voting for Alisae (Aureal)
1 player voting for camelCasedSnivy (Bingle)
1 player voting for Ircher (DragonEater70)
1 player voting for Cook (DkKoba)

5 players not voting (JasonWazza, Theta Alpine, Skygazer, Alisae, Cook)

with 17 votes, it takes 9 to eliminate.

mod notes: KatyKimFanClub is V/LA. JasonWazza opened both their role PM and the followup "hey, you need to confirm" message, but it slipped my mind that they hadn't posted (when you rely on the activity overview page, sometimes you get utterly destroyed by the fact that some people aren't on it). not really sure what's going on there given that they opened the PMs, but I'm going to go ahead and replace them.

I'm voting DragonEater70.

[AniX]

Alright, I think I should probably claim now:

I have three one-shot abilities, each of which trigger based on how I vote the previous day:
If I do not vote and do not explain, give notice of, or highlight I am not voting, the following night I can make any action taken by my chosen player that would occur that night happen the next night. This is the subjective mod judgment I was talking about, because what counts as acknowledging is not an objective standard (it even has a mod note to that effect). This is also why I said "we should vote STD" but never actually voted and never recognized anyone who replied to me to say I didn't actually vote.

If I vote for a lot of people (and each vote was on each person for an entire 24 hours), I can choose a player (who has to be someone I voted for) and see who they targeted at night.

If I vote for one person in my first post and never remove my vote and the day lasts for 72 hours, I can vigkill that person that night.

[AniX]

Oh, I wrote an earlier draft where I was a bit more vague on specifics and "a lot of" continued into the final draft. It's 5 people I need to vote to activate tracking.

[AniX]

Roleclaim: I am a miller.

VOTE: ranger

I'm miller.

This is not a traditional game such that this logic is going to work.

[AniX]

Are you voting me as part of my plan to kill me to confirm my abilities exist in the meta or are you voting me for some reason you have neglected to share?

[AniX]

This day would count (had I voted for someone in my first post, of course), it only has to be at least 72 hours.

[AniX]

This day would count (had I voted for someone in my first post, of course), it only has to be at least 72 hours.

What qualifies as 'a lot of people'?

Oh, I wrote an earlier draft where I was a bit more vague on specifics and "a lot of" continued into the final draft. It's 5 people I need to vote to activate tracking.

[AniX]

I figured. Just want to empathize I had said it soon after my original post and wasn't, like, making it up now.

[AniX]

DragonEater is very loud in pestering others for their claim for someone who hasn't said anything between jack and shit about his own role except to muse whether they should lie to the town or not.

[AniX]

Oh good, Aureal full claimed.

Way back last week, Aurel "recruited" me, in so much as we now share a neighborhood together. Aureal offered to fully induct me (so the ability is split between creating a private channel and actually fully cultizing), but I did not agree and to my knowledge have not gained any new abilities.

[AniX]

AniX should accept the power up and claim the information they get, but no one else should accept a power up from either player aorn.

I am willing to do so if the town feels like it is in our best interest.

[AniX]

This really feels like a role that is worthless and just makes me want to vote DragonEater more now. The odds that the town goes 2/2 on lims is...low. So what is the role? A vanilla townie with a 1/17 chance of getting a one-shot investigation ability? That doesn't really fit with the roles we've been seeing, where the goofiness and flaws are more tricky and involved.

[AniX]

16 roles that are bizarre Frankenstein creations, most of them patchworks of different abilities, restrictions, and left-field powers.
1 role that is a one-shot cop but only if the town gets really lucky day 1.

It just doesn't add.

[AniX]

Now that my claim is open and I can tell you what I am doing, I am going to unvote DragonEater and

Vote SaveTheDragons

. I still support, at this time, limming DragonEater and will join a vote to lim if my vote is necessary to do so. I just also feel like we might have another three days of this Day 1 and I figure, with no vote and only voting for one person off the table, I might as well TRY to get my Tracker ability activated. So for the next 24 hours I will be voting STD. In 24 hours I will switch to another user with little risk of being flash-limmed, then a fifth user in another 24. This will allow me to meet my 5 user threshold.

Currently, I have completed or am currently attempting 24 hours on the following people:
DKoba: August 2nd, 3:09pm to August 5th, 6:34pm
DragonEater: August 5th, 6:34pm to August 11th, 3:53pm
STD: August 11th, 3:53pm to August 12th, around 4-5pm

[AniX]

hos anix
fos theta
igmeo drdrew

What's hos and igmeo?

Hand of Suspicion, presumably a suspicion fivefold that of a single Finger of Suspicion.

I've got my eye on you, a level of suspicion below that of FoS.

[AniX]

In the worldview where Aureal is scum, is it that they are scum neighborhood maker or that I am also scum?

[AniX]

Vote Skygazer

Currently, I have completed or am currently attempting 24 hours on the following people:
DKoba: August 2nd, 3:09pm to August 5th, 6:34pm
DragonEater: August 5th, 6:34pm to August 11th, 3:53pm
STD: August 11th, 3:53pm to August 12th, 4:16pm
Skygazer: August 12th, 4:16pm to August 13th, around 4-5pm

[AniX]

Vote Alisae

This will conclude my cycle (although I think I can expand my tracker target pool) and all these are valid choices for me to track tonight.

I have completed or am currently attempting 24 hours on the following people:
DKoba: August 2nd, 3:09pm to August 5th, 6:34pm
DragonEater: August 5th, 6:34pm to August 11th, 3:53pm
STD: August 11th, 3:53pm to August 12th, 4:16pm
Skygazer: August 12th, 4:16pm to August 13th, around 4-5pm
Alisae Slot: August 13th, 4:17pm to August 14th, around 4-5pm

[AniX]

Personally, I think DragonEater is still my top pick. Their role simply doesn't make sense to me as part of this game.

[AniX]

I'd be ok with no lim, since it is the limited case where we can lock DragonEater into using his cop ability.

[AniX]

He claimed to a cop whose ability goes away the moment a town player is limmed.

[AniX]

So? Putting the mafia into a position where they either need to sink a kill into a role that is on the precipice of useless or letting a cop investigation go is a position I want them to be in.

[AniX]

Like unless we get lucky, we are going to lim a townfolk, lose the cop ability anyway, AND lose an actually useful role tonight. No lim saves us at least one townie, likely two, AND gives us a shot at a investigation.

[AniX]

Vote No Lim

, I'm free and clear to track tonight.

[AniX]

You know what, that's fair.

Vote Political Clout

[AniX]

I'll switch back the moment No Lim gets momentum though.

[AniX]

See scum kill scum only works if you see scum. Otherwise, you are as likely to kill town as anything else. Sticking to site meta is silly in a game that began far adrift from the normal meta and went even further when we all fullclaimed day 1. The only people who benefit from business as usual are the scum whose game plan is still business as usual.

[AniX]

Nobody is putting "stock" in DragonEater. I'm certainly not. But any result of his night will give us more information than a shot in the dark kill today.

[AniX]

but if we want to give dragoneater an actual shot at using their ability in order to chain ability confirmations we could no lim to be safe

What do we gain from letting DragonEater70 investigate by nolimming? Assuming it goes through, a single town player, statistically speaking. If DragonEater70 hit scum, it'd be better, sure; by the odds, still unlikely.

What do we lose from nolimming to guarantee it? Assuming scum shoot, a single town player.

A nolim breaks even

if

nothing goes wrong.

Personally, I'd prefer eliminating scum today. If we get it right, DE70 still gets an invest anyway. If we get it wrong, then at least we didn't put the game on hold for a single investigation where we likely break even.

I suppose the question then is simply this; do you believe the

chance

of getting a guilty warrants a

guaranteed

loss of eliminating scum today?

I don't. I'd prefer a chance to eliminate scum, which if right, gives a chance of a guilty still.

It is also a

guaranteed

gain of not eliminating another town player.

[AniX]

I am still in for no lim, yes. I'll switch my vote if needed to get it done.

[AniX]

I'd be ok with no lim, since it is the limited case where we can lock DragonEater into using his cop ability.

I disagree. We have no protectives, so I'll just get killed and we wouldn't have achieved anything.

Presuming you are telling the truth, even if you do die, forcing the Mafia to waste a kill on a role that is only useful under very specific circumstances is a win in my book.

So? Putting the mafia into a position where they either need to sink a kill into a role that is on the precipice of useless or letting a cop investigation go is a position I want them to be in.

But we wouldn't have gained anything. Like assuming we decide on a no-lim, and then scum kills me, the net result of D1 + N1 would have been 1 less town player, with no information gained. It's not useful. If we had more investigatives then maybe it would have been useful.

(Sorry, I know there's a tracker but I don't think one town death is worth one tracker result when the scum is probably quite able to use crazy roles which we do NOT know about.

This logic only works if we have a reasonable chance of limming mafia today. We don't.

The likely worlds (if you are not mafia) are:

Lim someone:

Odds are, at this information level, whomever we lim will be town. You lose your power entirely and as such we get no cop result. Mafia kills someone with a more useful role. We lose 1 town, likely 2, and 1 investigation.

Lim nobody, Mafia kills you:

We are down only 1 town and not a useful one. Town is better off for you having died as opposed to one of the power roles. We lose 1 town and 1 investigation.

Lim nobody, Mafia kills someone else:

We are down only 1 town but we have successfully created a set of circumstances where you are able to get off an investigation. We are down 1 town but up 1 investigation.

You tell me which you prefer:
-2 dead town, 1 lost investigation
-1 dead town, 1 lost investigation OR 1 dead town, 1 successful investigation

[AniX]

Presuming you are telling the truth, even if you do die, forcing the Mafia to waste a kill on a role that is only useful under very specific circumstances is a win in my book.

They are not wasting a kill, they are earning a free kill. If we eliminate then they'd be wasting a kill.

They get a kill tonight regardless. They are not getting a free kill. They will get that kill regardless of what we do today. Better it be on you than any of the other roles people have claimed. How on earth does that kill they get regardless become "wasted" if we lim today?

[AniX]

Presuming you are telling the truth, even if you do die, forcing the Mafia to waste a kill on a role that is only useful under very specific circumstances is a win in my book.

They are not wasting a kill, they are earning a free kill. If we eliminate then they'd be wasting a kill.

They get a kill tonight regardless. They are not getting a free kill. They will get that kill regardless of what we do today. Better it be on you than any of the other roles people have claimed. How on earth does that kill they get regardless become "wasted" if we lim today?

Okay let me put it this way:
Let's take, for the sake of argument, a mountainous setup with 4 scum and 13 town (17 players total).
If town eliminates every day and scum kills every night, then if town is doing a really bad job and hitting town only, you'd have:
Dawn of D1 - 4/13
Dawn of D2 - 4/11
Dawn of D3 - 4/9
Dawn of D4 - 4/7
Dawn of D5 - 4/5 (ELO)
End of D5 - 4/4 (scum wins)
Scum wins at end of D5 after 5 eliminations.
Now if town doesn't eliminate D1 you get:
Dawn of D1 - 4/13
Dawn of D2 - 4/12
Dawn of D3 - 4/10
Dawn of D4 - 4/8
Dawn of D5 - 4/6
Dawn of D6 - 4/4 (scum wins)
But in this scenario town only got 4 chances to do an elimination, instead of 5 (since they didn't eliminate D1).
Therefore this is the equivalent of giving scum a free kill.
No obviously we are no in mountainous but unless we have some good, usable night actions which will find us scum (rather than just negate scum actions, for example by way of roleblock), then we are still giving scum a free kill for no reason.

Limming a townie is also giving scum a free kill because it ends the game 1 day sooner AND takes a role off the board. An extra chance at a town elimination only is better if we actually use it to lim Mafia. Unless we have good, solid evidence right now at this moment that we are likely to eliminate scum, which we don't, despite what overconfident people think they are doing with their reads, an extra day is better than an extra dice roll lim.

[AniX]

I am fine with the philosophy of "Limming Day 1 is generally a good idea". But generally and "We must do it, no matter the specific circumstances of an individual game" are very far apart from one another and especially in this game, general metas MUST make way for specifics.

Guys, for the love of al that is holy. Please. I beg of you. Let's vote scummy players rather than toying around with mech and arriving at a net 0 gain.

This is literally a mech game. It is a game that was created, is run, and revolves solely around mechanics. We SHOULD be focused on mech solving. The people toying around are those going "Sure, the mechanics and role claims would lead us in one direction, but my VIBES say something different"

Limming a townie is also giving scum a free kill because it ends the game 1 day sooner AND takes a role off the board. An extra chance at a town elimination only is better if we actually use it to lim Mafia. Unless we have good, solid evidence right now at this moment that we are likely to eliminate scum, which we don't, despite what overconfident people think they are doing with their reads, an extra day is better than an extra dice roll lim.

Then if we no-lim and scum "waste" their kill on me, are we all of a sudden going to get evidence? I don't understand your way of thinking.

I don't know if you realized this, but there are around 12 other players in this game besides you and the mafia.

[AniX]

The fact you, Dragoneater, the person who by their claim should MOST want to be careful about who we eliminate because it is the only way you can contribute materially to the town victory, are the one calling for most recklessness in limming is REALLY interesting.

Weird roleclaim that doesn't fit with ANYONE else's role, weird behavior even accounting for that role existing, maybe you aren't so wrong we should lim someone today, generally when people are claiming weird and acting weird you lim them.

[AniX]

anix is saying implicitly that the info we get from dragoneat is better than info we get from a flip. anix is also saying dragoneat is scum. these two facts don't mesh well.

If DE is telling the truth, the first is correct. If DE is scum, the second is correct. Obviously these do not mesh well, which is why I am trying to decide which one I think is more true.

[AniX]

actually with anix passively pushing no lim, voting me, calling dragoneat scum might be town for scatterbrain reasons.

I am voting you because if I vote 5 or more different people, each vote lasting over 24 hours, I can track any of those people. I have reached 5. You are number 6. At around 8:30pm tonight, I will start number 7, and so on until a vote I believe in requires support and I vote in earnest.

[AniX]

I am only "passively" pushing No lim in so much as I keep saying "we should go no lim" and "I think no lim is the best path for the town with the information we have" but I have not parked my vote on it.

[AniX]

I'll be straight up I'm not really sure of why EITHER of the top two (yourself and cook) are in the position they are.

[AniX]

Vote Random Nurse

I have completed 24 hours on the following people:
DKoba: August 2nd, 3:09pm to August 5th, 6:34pm
DragonEater: August 5th, 6:34pm to August 11th, 3:53pm
STD: August 11th, 3:53pm to August 12th, 4:16pm
Skygazer: August 12th, 4:16pm to August 13th, around 4-5pm
Alisae Slot: August 13th, 4:17pm to August 14th, around 4-5pm
Political Clout: August 14th, 8:09pm to August 16th, 12:06am

[AniX]

anix is saying implicitly that the info we get from dragoneat is better than info we get from a flip. anix is also saying dragoneat is scum. these two facts don't mesh well.

AniX is basically admitting that she either doesn't want to or can't form reads based on day play. I don't know which is more concerning, but I don't think she lied when she said she's a good Mafia player.
So that leaves us with "doesn't want to" form reads.
which is anti-town, but in a less scummy way than Aureal's complete disregard of actual scumhunting.

It is less "doesn't want to" and more "I do not believe it is likely to be accurate at this stage of the game nor the best strategy in this specific type of game"

[AniX]

It is also a

guaranteed

gain of not eliminating another town player.

In a 9p Cop + Doc vs Roleblocker setup, no-limming D1's a guarantee of not eliminating the doctor, cop, or any town.

What would your response be to a player suggesting a nolim D1 in that setup?

Same deal here.

Your logic applies to every game on mafiascum. Every game would guarantee no town elimination on D1 if they nolim D1.

There's good reason we take the risk.

I have and will continue to reject the notion that normal metas apply to this game. This is not a normal game and people need to stop acting like it.

[AniX]

For whatever reason I thought I voted someone today already. Let's go with...

Vote Deltabreedy

[AniX]

Vote Ircher

At this rate I'll be able to potentially investigate the whole playerlist before this day ends.

[AniX]

Vote Theta Alpine

[AniX]

Can Track

DkKoba
DragonEater
STD
Skygazer

Alisae Slot

ofrhz
Political Clout
Random Nurse
Ircher
Theta Alpine

Cannot Track [Yet?]

Bingle
Cook
Aureal
Ranger
camelCasedSnivy
KatyKimFanClub
Deltabreedy
Myself, in the off-use case I would need to do so

[AniX]

Vote KatyKimFanClub

[AniX]

I will not be here from Friday evening to Saturday night, so I don't overly like a self-imposed deadline of Saturday.

Honestly, I don't like a self-imposed deadline at all. I keep saying it and and it keeps being true, but this is not a normal game and we shouldn't treat it as such. It is a game with very complex roles and at this point all those roles (except for mafia) are out in the open for us to attempt a solve with.

[AniX]

I will not be here from Friday evening to Saturday night, so I don't overly like a self-imposed deadline of Saturday.

Honestly, I don't like a self-imposed deadline at all. I keep saying it and and it keeps being true, but this is not a normal game and we shouldn't treat it as such. It is a game with very complex roles and at this point all those roles (except for mafia) are out in the open for us to attempt a solve with.

We finished mass claim days if not weeks ago now. What is your mechsolve?

I think No Lim or DragonEater are the two obvious ways to end this day.

[AniX]

Number 1 slot cursed

[AniX]

Vote Deltabreedy Slot

[AniX]

Wait nvm I want to use my cop ability

If you actually did you'd be voting No Lim right now.

[AniX]

Vote Deltabreedy Slot

Why did you vote the other lurker slot that doesn't have a wagon on it

My abilities work based who I vote for and how long I vote for them. In this case, my one-off tracking ability requires me to vote at least 5 people for at least 24 hours each, with each success "vote" in that cycle adding to my list of trackable people. It is BECAUSE there is no wagon that I voted because I am trying to gather my stable, not accidentally contribute to a flash lim.

[AniX]

like i recognize i am a valuable asset to town but like also my flip is the strongest investigative in the game bar DE's cop

Uh, 3rd strongest, and stronger than DE's cop, assuming all claims are true.

there are 4 investigatives ?

PC is about approximately delayed cop, AniX is functionally a full tracker if we take the time to play right, you, DE, Theta. I might be missing some, I’m not at the computer with my role spreadsheet.

The fact you said full tracker here and then rank my power level so high makes me believe you actually overstated (or perhaps I potentially misstated) the depth of my ability. I get to track ONE person one time. The voting stuff just lets me expand the pool from which I can select that one person. It is similar with my other abilities (Not voting lets me block ONE person, but unrestricted since no vote, Tunnelling someone lets me kill ONE person and it is the person I tunnelled.

[AniX]

If I vote for a lot of people (and each vote was on each person for an entire 24 hours), I can choose a player (who has to be someone I voted for) and see who they targeted at night.

Ok good, I didn't accidentally make it seem like I was targeting everyone.

[AniX]

See, I thought that, but you already voted Deltabreedy earlier.

Yeah, that was just me missing my original vote when I compiled my masterlist and then voting again based off that masterlist, unfortunately.

[AniX]

Vote camelCasedSnivy

[AniX]

I still think no lim or limming DE90 is the path forward here.

[AniX]

I still think no lim or limming DE90 is the path forward here.

...

Either of those are a better argument than any of the arguments I have seen for Klick. Did you just hear it in a dream and that's what we are going with?

[AniX]

The above statement could also be applied to like 90% of the wagons that have occurred in this game so far, with the exception of Aureal or DE.

[AniX]

AniX still pushing me which is just meh.

The fact you refuse to recognize how scummy your supposed role makes you seem makes you seem all the more scummy.

[AniX]

AniX still pushing me which is just meh.

The fact you refuse to recognize how scummy your supposed role makes you seem makes you seem all the more scummy.

I kinda disagree with this take that "not seeing why I am scummy makes me scummy", due to the following:
1. You started by scumreading me for having too simple a role. (which btw I still disagree with. PC, Alisae/ofrhz, Katy and maybe some other ones also claimed some pretty simple roles. Also, you have no way to know which rolegroup I'm from. I could literally be the only one from my group)

2. Then basically everyone else kinda accepted that my role isn't too simple and fits neatly into the "normal role with unusual modifier" category. Meaning nobody but you is scumreading me for my role.

3. Therefore by your argument that not realizing it's scummy is itself scummy, is everyone else scummy as well for not scumreading me for this?

If you actually have a different argument from what I said here, feel free to present it. I promise i will read it properly and might even be convinced by your viewpoint (that it could look scummy, not that I am scum, obviously).

I don't think this is even true, I just think most people have their own windmills to tilt/the no lim movement kind of took over the bulk of putting pressure on you.

[AniX]

Anyway, I think I have a big enough tracking pool to draw from, I'm going to vote legitimately now and

Vote DragonEater90

, but I'll gladly join a No Lim vote. At the rate this day is going, we'll be forced into one anyway.

[AniX]

AniX, how many players are currently supporting no lim except you?

Your arguments are always so weirdly blind to the ebb and flow of the game I rarely know if I should waste my time responding to them.

[AniX]

anix how does no lim remotely help us in this situation we have several caught scum it's not like we're going to mislim and lose tempo or something

The town has indeed been quite fortunate in catching scum, the only difficulty is nobody can quite agree who has been caught.

[AniX]

I could be persuaded to vote for any of them if someone can actually present a case for them other than "My gut says it". Otherwise, I'd much rather focus on actual evidence we have. Either DragonEater has a role that doesn't fit this game or DragonEater is lying about his role. That is not based on vibes, that is hard proof. THAT is what we should be voting on.

[AniX]

Gladly. We have a list of every role in the game (multiple people have done much more through documenting of this so I will not recap them all again). Some of them are lies, assuredly, but the bulk of them are extremely likely to be true. They are all complex, weird roles that do all sorts of wild stuff. And then we have DragonEater, whose role is:

I am a cop, except I lose my cop ability the first time a townie player is eliminated, which kinda sucks and is the reason I didn't want to vote Koba but meh.

Forget a complex, weird role that does wild stuff, this is a role that is worse than bog standard cop. It is worse than even ONE-SHOT cop because at least that cop is guaranteed the one shot as long as they stay alive. This is simply not a role that matches ANYONE ELSE'S role in the game. Every single other role has common elements with another role and actually does something unusual. He denies it looks scummy NOW but he had something different to say in the moment:

Also would scum!me ever make a shitty claim like this? It is a horrible claim.

I'm not really buying "Yeah, my claim sucks and clearly implicates me...so much so that I must be innocent", especially when he stalled, and stalled, and stalled in revealing his role (I think he was the last one to claim? Or at least one of the few couple to) and then finally, realizing he couldn't think up a complex wacky role that he could believably sell as being pairable with others and finally, pressure on to claim, he threw out some nonsense and hoped it was so scummy it ceased being scummy in our eyes. And it is working! Instead of focusing on that, we are chasing our tales with Cook and Klick, which I still haven't heard a single actual argument for and, Aureal, who has the opposite problem to DragonEater where we know FOR A FACT their role has some recruit elements because more people have confirmed the recruitment ability than could possibly be evil team.

[AniX]

and based on your current feelings, how would you rank the 3 wagons on which one you'd rather see go through?

It is really telling that you just keeping asking "Yeah, but which would you vote for if you had to" in response to "ok, I'm willing to vote, what are the cases" instead of, you know, just giving the cases.

[AniX]

To be clear: Telling in the sense of "These wagons are based on nothing and people are just voting to vote because they want to avoid no lim". I think it is alignment agnostic behavior.

[AniX]

I realize going through my old posts I accidentally am voting for DragonEater90, who doesn't exist, and not DragonEater70, who is extremely sus. I trust the mod understands what I meant but I am going to revote anyway just to be sure:

Vote DragonEater70

[AniX]

I've said it a few times, but I do not believe social reads are particularly accurate or valuable on day 1, especially when we have mech evidence on the table.

If I had to rank, I guess I'd put Klick/Cook on the same tier of "Based on nothing, you could equally ask me about any two other random players" and then Aureal as a slightly worse vote than that, as I think neighborization/recruitment is less likely than baseline to be scum and from my personal perspective, neighborizing at the very least is 100% beyond a doubt confirmed.

[AniX]

I mean it in the sense of basing one's opinion on scumminess on how people phrase things or the way they say (or don't say) them based on one's subjective opinion on how those things should be coded, as opposed to the specific things they say or arguments they make. That is to say, I reject arguments such as

I touched on this already but it feels like his posting is made with the purpose of appealing to others.

as having any value at this stage of the game.

[AniX]

How many games have you played where all the roles were created by a knowable cabal and are all linked to each other in sets and there is a full game claim on day 1? I'll defer to your experience on how it went your last game.

[AniX]

You can feel any way you choose about me or any other player. I am, nevertheless, going to stick with the actual evidence we have.

[AniX]

How many games have you played where all the roles were created by a knowable cabal and are all linked to each other in sets and there is a full game claim on day 1? I'll defer to your experience on how it went your last game.

wow ok whats the solve then?

That is what I am trying to get town to work towards, but people keep getting distracted by "Well, we have all this evidence, but I'm just not vibing with that evidence sorry to say so I am going to base it on how these posts make me feel"

[AniX]

I want to remind everyone the last time I played forum mafia (I want to say 2004? early 2005?) I think only Dragon was on the site and one or more of you might not even have been born so please cut me some slack when I eventually lose the game for the town. I am effectively a newbie and since I just shuttered the newbie queue and fired the newbie mod, I really am rudderless right now.

Anyway, I kind of want to vote Save the Dragons, I really want to be able to say "I haven't played since before any living player joined". Can we make that happen?

like when you open the game with something like this i would hope you might delegate stuff to players who are clearly showing capability in pushing something on d1 like meuh at least if not myself(and hell, dragoneater has done some good work and its been ignored for the most part)

If you were explaining to me terminology I am misusing or misunderstanding, yes, you are my superior in expertise. But when it comes to determining whether a specific layout of a game that we both have equal lack of experience with requires a social or mech solve, you are NOT my superior in expertise. General meta must always defer to specific.

[AniX]

like ur trying to tell everyone either to throw their hands up and say "zomg we cant do anything we cant solve" when like many of us have been capable of finding at least 1 mafia on day 1 consistently if not at least a path to get mafia on day 2 at minimum or ... do what exactly?

ebwop

like im struggling to find where you are getting that dragoneater is mafia here just bc you dont like how their claim sounds when its a super regular sounding role, like your role and aureal's are both insanely complicated and theres a difference to how you have treated yours and how aureal has approached hers, and im just not convinced you really are even trying to make reads because you're afraid of being wrong or something (thats part of the game, trust me, I have been wrong many times in early games especially), and its that trial and error that gets you to the right answer and is a proven method to a) project yourself town and b) box out the mafia and not let them do what you're doing and make it harder to find whos just saying things

A super regular sounding role is suspicious when it is the ONLY super regular sounding role in a sea of roles that are, in fact, quite unusual.

[AniX]

How many games have you played where all the roles were created by a knowable cabal and are all linked to each other in sets and there is a full game claim on day 1? I'll defer to your experience on how it went your last game.

wow ok whats the solve then?

That is what I am trying to get town to work towards, but people keep getting distracted by "Well, we have all this evidence, but I'm just not vibing with that evidence sorry to say so I am going to base it on how these posts make me feel"

ok well if im being honest u have to just commit to something, open it up to debate, and then see where you go from there, rather than just starting from 0 info, since mafia comes down to an info gathering game of interactions/pushes/etc. and the more thumb twiddling there is in this department, the more scum benefit.

before flips sure its a crapshoot but u gotta start somewhere and worldbuild something

We don't have zero info, we literally have d1 claims from every player in the game and we have the info that one of those things is not like the others.

[AniX]

I have no objection to "crapshooting" and seeing what happens if we were in a situation where, as you say, no abilities have gone off yet and social reads are all we have and we need to get experimental. But to continue to crapshoot is bizarre when we have commitment on roles from every player in the game and abilities HAVE gone off already, demonstratively. Why gamble when we have actual things to worldbuild on?

[AniX]

How many games have you played where all the roles were created by a knowable cabal and are all linked to each other in sets and there is a full game claim on day 1? I'll defer to your experience on how it went your last game.

wow ok whats the solve then?

That is what I am trying to get town to work towards, but people keep getting distracted by "Well, we have all this evidence, but I'm just not vibing with that evidence sorry to say so I am going to base it on how these posts make me feel"

ok well if im being honest u have to just commit to something, open it up to debate, and then see where you go from there, rather than just starting from 0 info, since mafia comes down to an info gathering game of interactions/pushes/etc. and the more thumb twiddling there is in this department, the more scum benefit.

before flips sure its a crapshoot but u gotta start somewhere and worldbuild something

We don't have zero info, we literally have d1 claims from every player in the game and we have the info that one of those things is not like the others.

roleclaims in a setup like this are NAI for the most part

regardless im voting within what is presumably a grouping of 4 so im still voting optimally

Roleclaims are more alignment indicative than "taking a chance and seeing what happens though".

[AniX]

AniX, how many players are currently supporting no lim except you?

Your arguments are always so weirdly blind to the ebb and flow of the game I rarely know if I should waste my time responding to them.

Well there goes my desire to read and respond to your case against me

But I'll do it anyway cause I promised to.

I just mean that the question has no relevance to any argument or any position the town should or could take. It is literally "If no lim is theoretically good and people would theoretically support it, why is nobody specifically supporting it right now at this exact second"

[AniX]

[b]Vote DragonEater70[/b]

This vote is going to stay the whole day. His role STILL doesn't make any damn sense in the context of the game, he was extremely eager to make himself useless, and he is now either useless or evil team.

Town, you are welcome to join me on this vote and save me a vig kill. Otherwise, I'll be seeing him tonight.

Also STD isn't CLEARED but he didn't target anyone last night.

[AniX]

Why didn't the bbcode work?

Ok it worked this time, very strange. Sorry, doing my admin job in the middle of this game.

[AniX]

Vote DragonEater70

This vote is going to stay the whole day. His role STILL doesn't make any damn sense in the context of the game, he was extremely eager to make himself useless, and he is now either useless or evil team.

Town, you are welcome to join me on this vote and save me a vig kill. Otherwise, I'll be seeing him tonight.

Also STD isn't CLEARED but he didn't target anyone last night.

DragonEater is pretty townie by play. I'd be surprised if the paranoia there is scum faking it.

Except the part of the play where he claimed a bizarre role and then tried to lose that bizarre role's usefulness as fast as possible.

[AniX]

Also STD isn't CLEARED but he didn't target anyone last night.

Why did you track Save the Dragons?

I was trying to pick someone off my list that I had been flying under the radar and who I wouldn't be surprised if they flipped scum but I hadn't been so vocal about thinking about targeting such that they would, if they were mafia and knew I could track them, wouldn't do the kill.

[AniX]

Vote DragonEater70

This vote is going to stay the whole day. His role STILL doesn't make any damn sense in the context of the game, he was extremely eager to make himself useless, and he is now either useless or evil team.

He told us he lied about his role in the neighborhood, I'm not inclined to disclose how.

Famous pro-town behavior, lying about your role in a massclaim where everyone else is truthful.

[AniX]

Vote DragonEater70

This vote is going to stay the whole day. His role STILL doesn't make any damn sense in the context of the game, he was extremely eager to make himself useless, and he is now either useless or evil team.

Town, you are welcome to join me on this vote and save me a vig kill. Otherwise, I'll be seeing him tonight.

Also STD isn't CLEARED but he didn't target anyone last night.

Can you like, not?

Ugh you're just shooting yourself in the foot if town.

What's your real role then?

[AniX]

You have until the end of the day. As I've been saying the entire time, this is a mech solve game and you better have an absolutely BEAUTIFUL reason to fucking with the town's mech solve (if you are town. Take your time with a second fakeclaim if you're scum)

[AniX]

Vote DragonEater70

This vote is going to stay the whole day. His role STILL doesn't make any damn sense in the context of the game, he was extremely eager to make himself useless, and he is now either useless or evil team.

Town, you are welcome to join me on this vote and save me a vig kill. Otherwise, I'll be seeing him tonight.

Also STD isn't CLEARED but he didn't target anyone last night.

ok this is a super weird push again. the read is pretty much without merit i think, and anix doesn't really have an excuse to completely ignore the death miller flip, considering how he's spoken about the game thus far. weird

In what earth is someone who delayed, delayed, delayed claiming, then claimed a role that was clearly fake, now ADMITS it is clearly fake "pretty much without merit". Like I get if you think there are reasons he might do that and still be town. I would disagree strongly. But without ANY merit whatsoever to suspect him? Come on now. Either he's your scum buddy or you have a post restriction or something where you have to be loudly wrong, your pick.

What reaction specifically am I supposed to have to DKKoba flipping death miller? Yes, that is what they claimed. What more am I supposed to do with it right now?

[AniX]

Sure. "I think you are wrong about this" or "I think other options make sense" is a fine comment about my push. I'm still going to stick with it, but it is certainly a position a reasonable person could arrive at. But "no merit" is a much stronger argument than that.

Those are certainly possible but I also don't think there is much valuable in reacting with "Wow, he's a death miller. The traitor could be any of this laundry list of people" so I don't think I need an excuse to not say it.

[AniX]

sorry, i should've said "little merit" instead
idk what ive seen is that a mech band push doesn't need much value for you to go for it. like if you are only going to engage in the game mechanically it seems lame to turn down this oppurtunity. how big is the laundry list anyway?
(our readers may like to remember 3232

There is little more mechanical information about who is the traitor. To try to identify who the traitor is would venture into social reads.

[AniX]

"Here is the mechanical layout. Here's why this person's place in that layout doesn't make sense" is different from "Here is the mechanical layout. Here is my speculation on where this person fits in that mechanical layout, based on how they have been playing"

[AniX]

i was going to recruit you anix so you could confirm yourself but then thought better of it since uh
you have very useful night actions

I forget, does being neighborized by one person prevent recruitment by another, even if no recruitment took place (not that I think I should be recruited, mind you)? Do we even know that info? I was the first person to be neighborized by Aureal

[AniX]

You have until the end of the day. As I've been saying the entire time, this is a mech solve game and you better have an absolutely BEAUTIFUL reason to fucking with the town's mech solve (if you are town. Take your time with a second fakeclaim if you're scum)

I will say it right now:
I don't. Any and all claim-related shenanigans I do are due to my personal idiosyncrasies.

Since this answer will 100% not satisfy you, I'm just going to link 2 posts from a town game where I did claim related shenanigans due to my idiosyncrasies (this is obviously an alt).

Ok, well, you should still claim. It doesn't do you any favors that EVERYONE ELSE full claimed, you delayed, delayed, delayed, then claimed bullshit, then went "Oh ho, I actually was lying", then STILL REFUSE TO CLAIM, even though everyone else has. I'm not especially convinced by "No, no, you don't understand, sometimes I also lie to the town as town".

[AniX]

Ultimately your choice though. Unless this day quickends in the next 37 hours (the day needs to last 72 hours for my vigshot to activate), I have satisfied every other necessary component to vigshot you. Either you start being honest with the town about your role or I'll just have the mod be honest about what your role was.

[AniX]

Can someone who has voted Bingle unvote until like 11pm EST?

[AniX]

It should be fine now. It is EXACTLY 72 hours now (10:17pm 9/3 to 10:17pm 9/6) and obviously by the time the votes are made and executed, it'll be more than that.

[AniX]

He is free to be literally like a week late to fullclaiming and actually claim to convince me otherwise, instead of going "Yeah, I lied. Perhaps I did it for a town reason, you'll never know. What are you going to do about it?"

[AniX]

I am back from V/LA but I am now at work, so the earliest you can expect me to post is in a few hours at my break, but more likely I will only post when I finish off for the day (in about 10 hours)

I just want to be clear, I am going to vig you tonight. You STILL refusing to reveal your role isn't doing you any favors and makes me more sure you are scum. If you actually have a good role, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose by revealing it now and not forcing me to reveal it tomorrow.

[AniX]

Anyhow

I think AniX is gonna vig me either way by the looks of it so I might as well not claim just for the lolz (even though I did claim night action)

And AniX, if you think that makes me scum, that's honestly your problem for having such a narrow outlook on things and not being able to question "wait, is this thing which I find annoying actually likely to come from scum, or would it be incredibly unlikely for scum to do because it makes the player a huge target? What other evidence exists for him being scum? Hmmm, maybe he's just being annoying rather than scummy"

Yes, the narrow outlook of thinking someone who lies to town and then basically says "I am going to engage in anti-town action just to troll" might not be pro-town.

[AniX]

You don't get to go "It's your fault if you think I am suspicious just because I keep doing suspicious things" when the option for you to simply not do anti-town things exists.

[AniX]

Yes, the narrow outlook of thinking someone who lies to town and then basically says "I am going to engage in anti-town action just to troll" might not be

pro-town

.

That's where your confusion comes from. I didn't say anything about my actions being pro town, I said that my alignment is town. Town-aligned players can and WILL make anti-town plays and if you can't accept that then you will have a very hard time not deathtunneling townies every game.

Yeah, but you know who also makes anti-town plays? People with anti-town roles. If you can't accept that acting in an anti-town way is going to get you limmed for being anti-town, you will have a very hard time surviving every game.

[AniX]

I am back from V/LA but I am now at work, so the earliest you can expect me to post is in a few hours at my break, but more likely I will only post when I finish off for the day (in about 10 hours)

I just want to be clear, I am going to vig you tonight. You STILL refusing to reveal your role isn't doing you any favors and makes me more sure you are scum. If you actually have a good role, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose by revealing it now and not forcing me to reveal it tomorrow.

I think Dragon is town. Could you try to vig one of the low activity slots instead rather than taking a hero shot on Dragon?

1. I don't think killing low activity shots are more likely to be scum than Dragon.

2. At this point, I have vig on one person and only one person. If I wanted to vig someone else, I'd need to not vig tonight and then do this process all over AND decide who I want to do it this day or the night because it needs to be in my first post and my first post needs to be in the first 24 hours.

I am comfortable with vigging DragonEater and will do so tonight unless he gives me a reason not to. Which he has explicitly refused to do.

[AniX]

I vigged DragonEater

I also received a secret message from some party who did not identify themselves in the message (they referred to themselves only as Amway) basically being like "you should let me recruit you. I hope you didn't kill DragonEater". If whomever this person is wants to identify themselves, please reply with the last word of the message you sent as proof.

[AniX]

I would vig DE again and regret nothing, somehow he decided his best play was to lie about his role three times.

[AniX]

Who should I roleblock tonight? It is the last of my powers I haven't used.

[AniX]

I targeted you, Meuh, with the last of my abilities: the role delayer, so your result should be coming in the mail tonight.

[AniX]

Any action a player I target takes the night I target them is resolved the following night. Minds more versed in mafia semantics than me can tell me if this language is commonly used to impact factional actions.

[AniX]

I have inquired with the mod, I will report back if I receive any judgments.

[AniX]

My ability works on fractional actions, yes.

[AniX]

There is only one Mafia left though, isn't there? There are two likely worlds in existence right now:

- I am lying about delaying Meuh. If I am lying at this late stage on something so substantial and you truly believe that, I HAVE to be the evil one and you should lim me. But if that's the case, Meuh isn't the evil one because there is only one left and it's me.
Conclusion: Meuh is good.

- I am not lying about delaying Meuh. A kill went off last night, I checked with xyzzy who confirmed it effects factional kills. Meuh's action was delayed last night but the Mafia action went off.
Conclusion: Meuh is good.

[AniX]

Whoops, I got into that rhythm where I was reading every post and being like "I have no objections to the way this is going" and I did that for multiple days in a role and forgot my computer doesn't automatically post my agreement.

I think we mostly have this solved and just need to let it work its way through, although obviously I reserve the right to withdraw this if Mafia has some tomfoolery role they have yet to break out.

[AniX]

Not bad for my first game back in basically 20 years.

Also, Let it be known that mechsolving won this game. LET IT BE KNOWN.

[AniX]

It seems a little unfair that as a list mod I was allowed to submit roles for this game and also play in it

You were?

They are making a humorous remark on the fact they were inducted as a listmod while the game built by listmods was in progress.

[AniX]

I can now reveal I fired implosion for not making my role more powerful, having psychically intuited he made it.