Weird Dreams Mafia Redux [Finished]

[Radical Rat]

So it does.

Anyway, I killed CSF. Merlyn made me paranoid on the slot, figured that'd be the quickest way to resolve it. Only one shot though, so it won't have been me next time.

is that your role or the nightmare action??

Just me. Miller vig is a very funny role.

[Radical Rat]

I was afraid scum might be in there and block me if I announced.

[Radical Rat]

It is a scum claim because it's a hiding in plain sight claim. Furthermore, there were three deaths.

Did you read the flips?

Drew died doing his job and took Titus down with him.

[Radical Rat]

StD is definitely capable of confidence as Town.

[Radical Rat]

For the record, Doctor Drew

heavily

implied he bodyguarded usesPython last night.

Given he's near-certainly the source of the Titus death, I'm treating usesPython as conftown.

Otherwise, hard-reset of everything.

I was waiting to see what happened before saying this, but I can confirm it as accurate

[Radical Rat]

The other example I had in my mind was also Cephrir, so maybe you're right actually.

[Radical Rat]

With a certainty of a traitor present, it would be wise to search for signaling.

When I reread, I'll see if I spot anything.

I want to jump ahead of this and request that you wait to share your findings until everyone has checked in.

[Radical Rat]

Yeah I wonder if I made their job harder...

?

[Radical Rat]

Python, take a look back at Nightmare Post #163, and the page around it.

You see the same thing I see?

[Radical Rat]

Everyone else who was in there can look too. Just something worth keeping in mind as people trickle in I think.

[Radical Rat]

Slipped through my radar because Titus didn't keep repeatedly bringing it up and had a lower thread presence I guess.

[Radical Rat]

All I needed to hear.

VOTE: Kyoko Kirigiri

[Radical Rat]

So here's the thing.

We did vote to give Kirigiri an invention.

Titus was the fifth vote. After the hammer, AND after Korina announced the hammer.

At the time, I wrote it off as Titus not paying attention. But with her flip, and the lack of Kirigiri's corpse... I now believe it was a performative attempt at distancing.

[Radical Rat]

All I needed to hear.

VOTE: Kyoko Kirigiri

I think she's town

You're wrong.

[Radical Rat]

Reread Korina's hammer announcement in the Nightmare and you'll have a clear answer to that.

But also, trust me on this. She's scum.

[Radical Rat]

It's not flavor, it's the mechanics.

[Radical Rat]

I see. Unfortunately, that has no bearing on Kirigiri's alignment.

[Radical Rat]

Fine. I didn't want to have to spell it out, but I will.

The invention we awarded Kirigiri was Bulletproof Mason. This was to extend the life of the BP, and also to provide cult immunity.

I was careful in my arguments to stay hypothetical, but the reason I was so confident this would work is because I'm a mason. That's why I have access to a PT, as has been publicly confirmed now.

Kirigiri did not show up in my masonry. Korina explicitly stated the Nightmare Award could not be stopped or redirected. Therefore, Kirigiri is scum.

[Radical Rat]

.... That ability does not work the way you think it works

Yes it does. I discussed this extensively with my partners and Korina before suggesting it in the Nightmare.

[Radical Rat]

ah ok cool. This game has day roles so you mind if everyone checks in before we finish this flashwagon?

UNVOTE:

That's fine, we need a nightmare lineup also.

I don't want to propose it and spew my partners, but obviously Kirigiri's out.

[Radical Rat]

.... That ability does not work the way you think it works

It does, town that gets awarded the Mason invention gets added to an existing masonry if one exists or creates a new masonry with themselves if none exist

I did actually make up the part where it creates a new masonry. I never asked about that since I knew the target would join mine anyway, and it'd never come up.

[Radical Rat]

@Korina

: can the invention that is

awarded

to a player slot through the nightmare redux be redirected to be awarded to another player slot by player abilities?

No, nothing awarded via the Nightmare can be prevented or redirected due to it not being considered a player action. Any actions a player takes with a Nightmare reward can be, unless the player’s role states otherwise.

Seems pretty clear-cut to me.

[Radical Rat]

We have explicit mod confirmation that this would be impossible.

[Radical Rat]

HURT: Doctor Drew, usesPython, Abnegation, Aureal, camelCasedSnivy, Save the Dragons, Radical Rat

With this knowledge, we can also conclude that either at least one person on this list is scum, or one person in the nightmare last night is cult. Which to pursue depends on the flip.

[Radical Rat]

maybe replace kyoko with ranger? their 1v1 makes me think ranger is town regardless

I'm okay with this.

[Radical Rat]

We have explicit mod confirmation that this would be impossible.

Are you saying if you give someone a role through invention and they get vandalized they keep that role?

The mod confirmation says nothing can stop the invention from reaching that person, not that the role they get cant be blocked/will be immortal

Unless your argument is that someone has specifically a delayed vanillizer that takes place at day-start, there's nothing that could have possibly happened. Even if it's a normal day ability, you should have entered the masonry then been removed when it went off.

[Radical Rat]

So... how does one shot mason even work?

Since it's not an active ability, it's not one shot. She would have been added to the masonry permanently, which is one of the major advantages over IC.

[Radical Rat]

HURT: snivy, python, ranger, sheep, abnegation, rat, rauth

Would you mind tagging out with KKFC actually? Nothing personal, it's just that you were one of the ones on Kirigiri's proposal we don't already know is Town, so safety first.

HURT: KatyKimFanClub, usesPython, Ranger, sheepsaysmeep, Abnegation, Radical Rat, Rautherdir

[Radical Rat]

Cult or SK would be scum unaligned with Titus. Multiball technically possible but seems unlikely due to kill count. Also we've got Good Dreams and Evil Dreams so WTF would they be, the Annoying Dreams?

Slightly awkward dreams? Dreams that you remember vividly until you try to tell someone and suddenly there's nothing?

[Radical Rat]

I just realized this game has 3+ Traffic Analysts wtf

Did I miss the third one? Or are you assuming that scum has one if town has two?

The third one is the one that published results on me publicly.

[Radical Rat]

Okay so here's a fun one.

Let's say, hypothetically, you did successfully receive the mason role, which you claim happened, and then something removed it somehow.

As part of receiving the mason role, you should have been told about your fellow masons, maybe even given a link to a PT you didn't actually have permission to enter since it was subsequently revoked.

Obviously, that didn't happen. So it's completely irrelevant if anything could have removed it, or isolated you from the PT.

[Radical Rat]

Okay so here's a fun one.

Let's say, hypothetically, you did successfully receive the mason role, which you claim happened, and then something removed it somehow.

As part of receiving the mason role, you should have been told about your fellow masons, maybe even given a link to a PT you didn't actually have permission to enter since it was subsequently revoked.

Obviously, that didn't happen. So it's completely irrelevant if anything could have removed it, or isolated you from the PT.

I received a mason bp role and were not told who are my mason partners nor I was added to a pt. That is literally what happened

That is your claim, yes. But Korina has made it clear that if the invention failed for any reason, you wouldn't have been told you received it. And if you did successfully receive it, but had it stripped afterwards, you should have received the information associated with the role. Otherwise, you never ACTUALLY received it, and thus would not have known it was even attempted.

[Radical Rat]

Doesn't have to, but has explicitly stated that it would be the case.

[Radical Rat]

Doesn't have to, but has explicitly stated that it would be the case.

About NAR.

[Radical Rat]

tbh I have literally no clue how to play against cult

The traffic analysts would have been a big help, but uh........... someone killed two of them

[Radical Rat]

I mean, you gotta admit, this would be one hell of a cult play

[Radical Rat]

Masonry with an open-door policy.

[Radical Rat]

'Salright, I also could have waited to reveal, but I got antsy

[Radical Rat]

It is. She DID leave crumbs, but they were well hidden enough that I don't think scum would have seen them naturally.

However I was also in what seemed to be a minority position townreading her, so maybe they guessed based on that?

Only one kill is good though, means that assuming cult functions similarly to the last iteration, they probably didn't successfully recruit anyone N1.

[Radical Rat]

Based off 1552 there's scum in Abnegation/StD/Snivy

VOTE: StD

I'm not sure I follow. What makes you think that?

Kirigiri flipped scum. Her proposal includes neither herself nor Titus, the other flipped scum. It seems unlikely that scum would be suggesting a Nightmare without them, and Abnegation/StD/Snivy are the ones in her proposal that don't have strong evidence pointing toward them not being scum.

[Radical Rat]

It's possible, but it's a weird risk to take.

[Radical Rat]

My guess is that keeping Ranger out was the primary motivation behind offering the alternative

[Radical Rat]

It's possible, but it's a weird risk to take.

Is being in the nightmare really that much of an advantage?

You've read what the Nightmare does, right?

Scum having influence over that decision, and knowledge of its outcome, is a HUGE advantage.

[Radical Rat]

It is. She DID leave crumbs, but they were well hidden enough that I don't think scum would have seen them naturally.

However I was also in what seemed to be a minority position townreading her, so maybe they guessed based on that?

Only one kill is good though, means that assuming cult functions similarly to the last iteration, they probably didn't successfully recruit anyone N1.

Do we actually know there's a cult, or are we just assuming because it's a Korina game?

Last version of this setup had one, and it's a Korina game, and there's at least three Traffic Analyzers, so... I think it's a pretty safe bet.

[Radical Rat]

Severely V/LA indefinitely

Apologies. A friend's indefinitely in a dire situation. A great amount of my free time will be dedicated to helping them.

I'll still be able to keep current, with reads/votes/feedback. I'll be unable to reread, or likely even case. I know I promised to. Apologies. I literally can't. Friend > games.

I hope things go well for you and your friend. Take all the time you need to.

[Radical Rat]

Well, we were trying to create a Bulletproof IC, which... I think scum would very much have liked to get ahead of? To both shoot the target before it took effect (if they knew about that ahead of time), and/or try to steer it away from being a guilty instead (which they were unsuccessful in doing, but doesn't mean they wouldn't want to try).

It's the kind of thing I'd be very firm about interfering with if I were on the scumteam.

[Radical Rat]

I am aware of this. But just in case he's not, or for the benefit of others who may be swayed by his words, I don't mind a bit of discussion of questionable faith.

[Radical Rat]

HURT: usesPython, Ranger, Morning Tweet, sheepsaysmeep, Radical Rat DragonEater70, Abnegation

replace dragon and abne with 2 other people (preferably me but aureal's kindness was a LITERAL scum move)

Aureal was Town???

[Radical Rat]

I mean, everyone else in that list could make the same argument. Except usesPython given we're pretty sure they were the night kill target that first night.


... ACTUALLY. We're still missing whoever force put Drew into the Nightmare. Is there any overlap between people who were active then and people who were in Kirigiri's list? (I ask because I am too occupied to look myself right now...)

This is an EXCELLENT question that I will be looking into immediately

[Radical Rat]

There is not.

[Radical Rat]

Flea, me, DragonEater, and Ranger were the active parties.

Of those four, I was the only one in the proposal, but. I obviously know I didn't do it, and I think there's enough actual evidence to dispel any possible doubts on me as well.

[Radical Rat]

Even then it would still be odd for scum to make a list of town reads and not have any partners on it. Not out of the question, but.

I do this as scum a fair bit. In fact i dont think any scum got into the nightmare last game, at least some sscum had to have been proposing town

But.. yea

I went to check, and while it is true that no scum made it in (except you, but no Mafia at least), All of the scum who were voting were voting for at least one scum member. Kawaii and Empath were voting for each other and themselves, and Meg voted for themself. Clone wasn't voting for Nightmares.

Nightmare voting and functionality was slightly different that game, and none of these players returned, so I don't know how transferable that is... but it's certainly not a point against scum wanting to be in

[Radical Rat]

I think Ranger was a relatively safe push to make at the time, yeah. Most people tend to gloss over wallfights and go "Eh, probably TvT" I think.

[Radical Rat]

Not intentionally, no. But she was in my nightmare proposals and a consistent townread that I didn't have good reasons for.

[Radical Rat]

Could've been one-shot?

[Radical Rat]

Or odd-night

[Radical Rat]

I think we should massclaim tomorrow regardless

[Radical Rat]

I will have input on this later.

Masonry is still in mourning, haven't agreed on decisions yet.

[Radical Rat]

The fast d2 kinda sucks because it makes it harder to spot Cult through trajectory analysis

UNVOTE: Abnegation

RR how likely do you think it was specifically Mafia that put Drew in the nightmare instead of 3p/Cult/Traitor?

I think I'm still leaning Mafia with the goal of getting us to mislim him, but... why Drew specifically? Kirigiri tried to use it in her push on Ranger, in which case Ranger's posting would be why Drew was chosen, but Kirigiri wasn't the first to float that idea... I'd have to go check and see who was. I know I was pushing it, but I think specifically the "Ranger using puns is crumbing/signaling" take started with someone else.

I don't think Cult would do it, because that generates a lot of unnecessary attention, and Cult doesn't NEED anyone specific in the Nightmare, they can just recruit someone out of it.

3P is a maybe, but we can reasonably infer at this point that there's no SK, though maybe a Condemner would make sense? In which case, no longer a need to worry about it though.

Traitor, I know Korina has historically implemented as knowing their partners, so I would expect them to just nom a partner, but it could have been a chaos play I suppose

[Radical Rat]

I will have input on this later.

Masonry is still in mourning, haven't agreed on decisions yet.

Also would be nice to get a scumminess order in ccs/abne/std from y'all when you have the time

My personal ranking would be Snivy > StD > Abnegation, in descending order of scumminess.

[Radical Rat]

Well, the cult leader won't have an original role, plus if we pool together actions and results we might have a way to find cult from the claims that way.

An obvious example, though one that can't really happen anymore, is if Wheme had gotten a result of no PT N1, and then CSF got a result of yes PT N2, which basically means the target was either cult recruited or a traitor.

Other things that might still be possible would be things like rolecop, gunsmith, bloodhound, people added to suspicious neighborhoods, the role that reveals non-Town in Nightmares, etc.

I think we're PROBABLY okay waiting until tomorrow, but a massclaim is definitely still good for hunting cult/3P

[Radical Rat]

Alright, we've talked things over, and have agreed to a massclaim today.

Is anyone out here opposed?

[Radical Rat]

Alright, we've talked things over, and have agreed to a massclaim today.

Is anyone out here opposed?

As an addendum to this, this would only apply to base roles, not Nightmare Inventions. The recipient from last night should stay secret I think.

[Radical Rat]

Well, you already mostly know mine.

I lied about being a Miller though, in part to avoid investigations being wasted on me when I could be externally confirmed, in part to lower my nightkill priority, and in part just because it was funny.

Not much point in maintaining that lie anymore.

[Radical Rat]

Well, you already mostly know mine.

I lied about being a Miller though, in part to avoid investigations being wasted on me when I could be externally confirmed, in part to lower my nightkill priority, and in part just because it was funny.

Not much point in maintaining that lie anymore.

Abnegation's not your Mason partner right?

What's the fun in a massclaim if I claim for everyone? Partners have agreed to claim, you'll find out soon

[Radical Rat]

Oh are we not supposed to say flavor names? I'm so sorry.

Generally speaking, names are fine unless you're specifically told not to share them.

It's just directly quoting the actual meat of the PM that's a problem in most rulesets.

[Radical Rat]

I'm a Backrooms Designer (Town Neighborizing Marshall)

Each night I can target another player in the game and add them to my neighborhood (The Backrooms). Anyone I target cannot be targeted by anyone else and cannot take any actions the night I target them. I gain access to the Backrooms the first time my neighborize is successful.

Did you use this ability?

[Radical Rat]

Do we think Snivy and StD are scum together? Cause if not that clears StD I think

It's not impossible, though I'm pretty sure a Godfather did exist in the previous setup

I'll dig into things a bit more when we have all the claims on the table

[Radical Rat]

i also have a 1-shot rolecop. i tried to target ircher n1 and was told my target is...voidfiend vigilante. which is rat's role. that means redirector game.

[Radical Rat]

Python, do you know if your motivation gives extra shots to limited shot roles? Like... does Snivy actually have two more shots instead of just one?

[Radical Rat]

there is one more part of my role that i haven't shared yet. i'm not a regular mason, i'm a masonry traitor. i wasn't in the masonry at the start of the game, but i was aware of who all the masons were and knew they had a 2-shot traitor recruit to find me. that's why i had to be so obvious with the softing lol.
i was recruited n1.

This can also be verified with me being not very subtle at the start of Nightmare 1, making sure we had the right call before wasting the recruit

[Radical Rat]

The only other person I can imagine Drew MIGHT have protected if not You/Kirigiri would be Ranger with the IC claim

[Radical Rat]

We're allowed one personal action and one factional action

[Radical Rat]

It is really odd how much specifically TA power there was, given the large amount of volatile PTs present making it useless to find Mafia and significantly weakened for catching cult.

[Radical Rat]

KKFC, you've played Mafia on another site before, yeah?

[Radical Rat]

Hmmmm

[Radical Rat]

And epicmafia's your only off-site experience?

[Radical Rat]

I'm asking because your claim doesn't make sense, and I think you made it up using terminology from another game/site.

Though unfortunately, that hypothesis doesn't seem to align with your answers...

[Radical Rat]

Essentially, what you've claimed is a Neighborizing Jailkeeper. But you called it a Neighborizing Marshall.

[Radical Rat]

Essentially, what you've claimed is a Neighborizing Jailkeeper. But you called it a Neighborizing Marshall.

I think I'm slightly different than a Jailkeeper because other people can still use non-killing actions on someone who is jailkept right?

That's correct actually, yeah. It'd be an Alien then, but not the alternative scumteam kind.

[Radical Rat]

I'm asking because your claim doesn't make sense, and I think you made it up using terminology from another game/site.

Though unfortunately, that hypothesis doesn't seem to align with your answers...

Is it possible that Korina is the one borrowing terms from other sites?

It is possible, and that's why I wanted to see your origins before jumping to conclusions. I don't know where Korina's from, and this is beyond the scope of questions to ask a mod, so. Might be a dead end.

[Radical Rat]

isnt kkfc a rolestopper tho

Rolestopper only stopes incoming actions, it doesn't also roleblock.

[Radical Rat]

I think I'm going to believe you though.

I don't know why Korina would have made up a name for that instead of using Alien or Roleblocking Rolestopper or something when everyone else got MS standard ability names where applicable, but by the same token I don't think you're lying about your experience and it would be really weird for you to concoct an original ability to fakeclaim with, especially when you've already demonstrated a willingness to check the wiki

[Radical Rat]

I have a few more thoughts on this, but I will wait for the rest of the claims.

[Radical Rat]

Who are we still waiting on. Just Flea/Rauth?

[Radical Rat]

Problems Time:

1. No one claimed to have put Drew in (this was expected)

2. No one claimed the public TA result on me (this should have happened)

[Radical Rat]

Problems Time:

1. No one claimed to have put Drew in (this was expected)

2. No one claimed the public TA result on me (this should have happened)

there was a role that was an inverse publishing mafia role last game which i originally thought it was but it told the truth, so maybe its a role that can choose a mod message?

My guess was that it was that adapted into a Town role as a non-Inverse version

But if no one's claiming it... then that makes it much more suspicious.

I'm almost wondering if it wasn't someone who was redirected/deflected in the same manner Abnegation was...

Speaking of, Problem 3. No one claimed that either.

[Radical Rat]

We have three actions unaccounted for, unless there's something else I'm missing.

Inquiry goated perhaps?

[Radical Rat]

Well yeah, but like. Why stop at one result?

[Radical Rat]

could we ask if someone can EITHER redirect, force someone in the nightmare, or can publish a mod message?

It's explicitly said that we can ask more than Yes or No questions, as long as there's no alignment information so like.

"What are all of the non-factional abilities this player can use?" ought to be just as good, if not better than a rolecop

[Radical Rat]

could we ask if someone can EITHER redirect, force someone in the nightmare, or can publish a mod message?

It's explicitly said that we can ask more than Yes or No questions, as long as there's no alignment information so like.

"What are all of the non-factional abilities this player can use?" ought to be just as good, if not better than a rolecop

wouldn't things like vigilante make it alignment indicative though, even if a person doesn't claim that aspect?

Mafia Vigilante can theoretically exist. Broken as hell, but there's nothing INHERENTLY Town about killing people.

[Radical Rat]

Miller's not an ability though. IC is however, so yeah point taken.

I'm sure it could be workshopped though

[Radical Rat]

could we ask if someone can EITHER redirect, force someone in the nightmare, or can publish a mod message?

It's explicitly said that we can ask more than Yes or No questions, as long as there's no alignment information so like.

"What are all of the non-factional abilities this player can use?" ought to be just as good, if not better than a rolecop

wouldn't things like vigilante make it alignment indicative though, even if a person doesn't claim that aspect?

Mafia Vigilante can theoretically exist. Broken as hell, but there's nothing INHERENTLY Town about killing people.

It's an alignment indicative question because roles that can only be town like Miller exist

In response to this, sorry

[Radical Rat]

Also, not using an ability night 1 also seems really off.

I was going to use tracker, but uh. I missed night start and end. I'm fine with lending my kills to town to decide

How'd you manage to miss all five Night Start PMs?

[Radical Rat]

Inquiry goated perhaps?

What does goated mean?
/genq

(I can't believe I am using a tone indicator)

It means basically "the best" but in weird internet slang I started saying ironically until it eventually became normalized in my brain.

[Radical Rat]

Mafia Alarmist makes literally no sense when groupscum are ALREADY immune. So even if they have one, they won't use it on themselves, and if they use it on Town that's... good for us, regardless of who's doing it?

[Radical Rat]

Bloodhound is different from Cop though.

Bloodhound returns Town/Not Town, while Cop returns Mafia/Not Mafia

[Radical Rat]

Bloodhound and cop are different

Town vs not town should mean cult and godfathers caught too, no?

No it's identical to Cop because Cop also gives results as "Town" or "Not Town"

Not according to the OP.

[Radical Rat]

Well, technically not OP, but one of the setup posts. I'm on mobile and cannot quote the specific section, but the Nightmare awards specify that Cop returns Horrible Dreams or Not Horrible Dreams, which is the Mafia flavor

[Radical Rat]

Except that in Multiball with non-Mafia/Werewolf factions, Cop/Bloodhound is a meaningful distinction to make. Bloodhound is also an established role with precedent.

Marshall/Alien wouldn't be unless it was to distinguish from an Alien scumteam, which.... maybe??? But we have no reason to believe that, and Marshall, as described here, has no precedent that I can find. The only thing keeping me believing it is the implausibility of it as a lie

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, but this isn't a Normal game, and in non-Normal games the distinction matters. There is a functional difference in this setup, and the original version, between a Cop and a Bloodhound.

As far as we can tell though, there is no functional difference between Alien/Marshall, and Marshall would be an original role name with no prior usage (for this ability anyway) on MS or any of the other sites/games I checked, which is a bizarre choice for what's supposed to be the disambiguation part of the role.

[Radical Rat]

No, the amount of TA power is super weird here because not only is having a PT not a guilty, not having one also isn't a clear because Traitor exists.

[Radical Rat]

HURT: Python

Ircher lim makes me somewhat nervous because of the claim, but I DO see the slip potential, and he's been shady as hell ever since repping in, and honestly we've got enough on the board that I think we'll be alright even if he is being truthful.

[Radical Rat]

Ranger should probably be the one motivated btw, double protection is really good, and since she has the potential to become unblockable, is probably the best one to receive it.

In case you weren't already

[Radical Rat]

Very well

[Radical Rat]

There's still a hypothetical chance you're partners and this is a 5D chess move, but we can sort that out soon enough.

[Radical Rat]

As soon as we pull it, she becomes vulnerable to cult. It will need to happen eventually, but for now we have wiggle room, so it's all good.

[Radical Rat]

If I was busdriven or something similar, I think Rauth should have absorbed whoever I got swapped with, which would presumably be Ircher since Abnegation targeted him and got me.

[Radical Rat]

Me being swapped with someone else absolutely affects what ability gets absorbed.

But we can deal with it after the flip and decide whether Ircher's just bullshitting or not.

[Radical Rat]

There's no conflict. The absorption ability would depend on the other ability, but the other ability doesn't depend on the absorption ability.

This is correct as far as I understand it.

[Radical Rat]

Never harm in asking, yeah.

[Radical Rat]

Honestly though, I'd be more inclined to believe Korina goofed than that Rauth is lying at this point anyway.

He's already claimed to have a vig and a bus driver anyway, so it's not like claiming absorber is protecting him from any role related investigations, and we know he didn't block, redirect, or kill me since my vig shot went to my intended target and I'm still alive, so there's nothing he'd need to cover for visiting me.

He may or may not still be cult if he got recruited, but there's no point in him lying about something like this.

[Radical Rat]

I HAVE SOME IMPORTANT INFORMATION

So uh. I ALSO received a mailman yesterday? I assumed it was from sheep too, but... sheep, can you double target???

Also, I received an invention, presumably from Flea? Can fae confirm that?

[Radical Rat]

Also wait, why is sheep sending messages at all? Wasn't there something more important he should have been using that personal action on?

[Radical Rat]

so i lied, i had another shot of rolecop, std is a shadow man. idk what that means but it doesn't sound good.

This was a Town Investigative last version of the setup. He's probably good

[Radical Rat]

POE just wins the game at this point I think?

Conftown:

• Ranger
  
• Radical Rat
  
• Abnegation
  
• usesPython
  
• Save The Dragons
  
• KatyKimFanClub

Everyone else:

• DragonEater70 (1-shot Neighborizer who faked Mason)
  
• Morning Tweet
  
• Flea the Magician
  
• Rautherdir
  
• sheepsaysmeep

I had a dream last night that NO RESULT.

So that's a guilty, right?

Oh yeah, KKFC targeted DE so that's our unclaimed Publishing TA

How did bro fake mason as neighbourizer

Oh, he was claiminng to be his own thing, not involved with your masonry? Like a loyal neighbourizer or something?

Basically, he neighborized Abnegation, and convinced us to let him pretend to be Mason for a day. His day's up, and he's sus as hell

[Radical Rat]

I don't want to rush the day yet.

[Radical Rat]

Ranger you should be safe to IC at this point since Cult's gone

I want the masons to approve first.

I'll sign off on it. Only thing that could cause a problem is a second cult at this point, but I doubt that to be the case

[Radical Rat]

@Mod

Would a Mentee have their Mentee status in their flip, or would that be redacted?

[Radical Rat]

I actually have a theory about this, but waiting on confirmation

[Radical Rat]

@Mod

Would a Mentee have their Mentee status in their flip, or would that be redacted?

All Mentees will flip as Cultists.

So, to clarify, information about being a Mentee will NOT be included in the flip?

[Radical Rat]

Alright, so I think Ircher was definitely recruited. It would have to have been N2 because of his role, but the flavor text strongly implies he was recruited by Snivy's role

[Radical Rat]

Also I have realized that I am probably very silly and my mailman did not come from sheep.

Still would like Flea to confirm the invention though, because it's a slightly spicy one.

[Radical Rat]

I think we actually get the most value eliminating Tweet and leashing Rauth to DE70.

[Radical Rat]

When dead, Tweet can ask Snivy for last night's results, and if DE70 was telling the truth about being a Bomb, that's two PoE down simultaneously.

Then we can just use the Nightmare Vig, and by the dawn there's only one unconfirmed slot left.

[Radical Rat]

Snivy's results aren't 100% trustworthy, could do some trolling, but it can't hurt to ask, right?

[Radical Rat]

Snivy also wouldn't be able to recruit and cop at the same time.

This is probably correct, yeah.

I missed that the recruit was listed as personal and not factional.

[Radical Rat]

Y'know, I thought the whole situation was weird, but just trusted you because masonry. All worked out in the end though.

Guess there's no point beating around the bush anymore, I got a Neighborizer invention that would create another Backrooms PT, which is very funny

[Radical Rat]

Idk, concession's a lame way to go out.

Even as I was sitting here making excuses to let him live

[Radical Rat]

I didn't know about this, I just thought getting a Backrooms PT of my own, and flipping the Cult already, lent legitimacy to his claim

[Radical Rat]

Guess there's no point beating around the bush anymore, I got a Neighborizer invention that would create another Backrooms PT, which is very funny

You should put me in it.

If there's another night phase, you got it

[Radical Rat]

Probably, but I'd have liked to see him try.

[Radical Rat]

I'm just very against giving up in general. I admire Kirigiri putting up the fight she did against a hard mechanical guilty. That's how scum should always go down imo.

[Radical Rat]

Probably, but I'd have liked to see him try.

Don't play with your prey.

It's not about that. I didn't mean to be deliberately taunting you.

I had a degree of reasonable doubt, and while it's incredibly unlikely you'd have gotten away with it, games are more fun when played through to the end. At least for me.

I don't necessarily blame you for conceding, I just wish you hadn't is all.

[Radical Rat]

I wasn't expecting the game to actually end today though, I thought you were group scum and we'd still have a traitor to find. So I'm worried it actually isn't over for town and we have a third party to find still... If not then uh. This feels a little too town sided? Guess I'll have to see the full setup later.

I think it's definitely Townsided overall, but there was a lot of room for scum to shenanigan.

[Radical Rat]

I'd have probably bought a claim you rolecopped him as some obviously Townie thing, but there was no way I was gonna let the fake mason thing last longer than that day, even without Backrooms shenanigans afoot.

[Radical Rat]

Actually the guilty wasn't luck, it was the setup bwing broken.

It was our only instant mechanical guilty and even if it hit town Snivy could have recruited there

Well. Maybe. I'm still of the opinion the masonry grants cult immunity.

[Radical Rat]

This setup was very heavily weighted toward a faction gaining control of the Nightmare. If someone with more available time and energy had been the scum in the nightmare N1, they could have steered it away from hitting partners, or pushed back harder on the possibility of there just being no masons. Cult recruiting Python would have been game changing for them. And if I'd been killed at any point, Abnegation could have totally gotten away with claiming DE70 as a mason without the rest of us able to expose the lie.

I think a Town that figures out how to effectively use the Nightmare, and is able to effectively block scum influence within it will basically always win, but there's definitely a lot of potential for things to have gone much, much worse than they did.

[Radical Rat]

No redactions here.
Thanks for modding, something like this was clearly a ton of work, and I'm glad we got to (mostly) see it through this time

[Radical Rat]

Damn it, you did put Drew in the Nightmare didn't you?

[Radical Rat]

Guess it's a good thing you lied though, because I would have absolutely shot you

[Radical Rat]

wait i thought i couldnt receruit groupscum ircher never told me they were mafia

You only can't recruit scum with living partners, and Traitor doesn't count unless recruited, so Ircher was the "last" surviving scum

[Radical Rat]

I should probably look into this but was Abne TRing Titus/Kirigiri during d1?

Jesus Christ Abnegation reads hella Traitor with her d1 posting

what would be really funny is if the mafia or the masons could recruit the wrong traitor by mistake, but that would break the game lol.

YOUUUUUUU

Yeah I saw that and it made it click right away that she was a double traitor. I couldn't pin down the exact mechanics because Rat apparently thought it would be funny to go along with her and spend the week gaslighting me, their own damn teammate, even it's obviously a terrible idea to let some random person fakeclaim mason.

So I spent the entire damn week screaming both internally and to the apathetic dead thread, trying to work out exactly how Abnegation and Rat had been recruited to a scum team. Trying to figure just how bastardly the setup had to be for the mod to lie and say scum wouldn't be in a masonry when obviously they were, which maybe meant they were culted by DE70 but wouldn't explain why I got killed.

My best guess as far as game balance went was that Abnegation didn't know she was double traitor at first until a mason died, at which point if recruited by both Mafia and mason she corrupted the remaining mason and they both joined the Mafia. And it was just a huge coincidence that she was doing all that traitor signaling to Mafia that you saw and that I died despite there being no reason for me to be targeted.

So my best guess for what was actually going on was that she was Mafia aligned the whole time, and the mod was being quite bastard with the setup and denying it. A bastard game being bastard made more sense than Rat apparently deciding to potentially game throw by allowing a fake mason claim for the lulz.

I was on vacation last week

THIS REALLY MESSED ME UP

I totally get the frustration, but there was never any game throw potential. If the plan for him to eat the kill happened, the situation would have resolved itself, but even if that didn't happen, I was never going to let the mason claim last in the Nightmare, which I would have insisted I be present for.

I am kinda kicking myself for not catching Abnegation earlier though

[Radical Rat]

OH NOW I CAN FINALLY DISCUSS THIS:

Marshall came from my original homesite, ToS forum mafia. I modified the role a little bit, but Marshall from what I remember of ToSFM was a Rolestopper.

I wanted to include the name Marshall to cast some innate doubt on that slot by having it literally be the cult role from the first game, with a non-standard name.

This amuses me because I played Town of Salem a ton before discovering Forum Mafia, but never actually played on the Town of Salem Forums

[Radical Rat]

Something else I can finally answer:

Why couldn’t I answer if masons could be culted? It opened more opportunities for CCS if I never confirmed it, and meant that I never explicitly had to answer anything about the cult, because with a cult, there are a lot of variations of cult leader I could be running. Also it’s really funny to watch people try to guess what I’d allow with a cult in my game LOL.

So WERE we recruitable?

[Radical Rat]

Oh also I was SO close to shooting Snivy N1, should have followed that instinct.

Changed to CSF out of paranoia literally like an hour before deadline.

[Radical Rat]

I totally get the frustration, but there was never any game throw potential. If the plan for him to eat the kill happened, the situation would have resolved itself, but even if that didn't happen, I was never going to let the mason claim last in the Nightmare, which I would have insisted I be present for.

I am kinda kicking myself for not catching Abnegation earlier though

There is no way that scum would target Dragoneater the absentee for a nightkill, over any of the many other confirmed Town. There was no benefit to it and huge potential risk.

Any plan that relies on you being alive later to tell people something you said earlier was false is inherently unreliable, especially in a game like this. What if mafia had the hammerer ability again, or a dayvig? You say someone is your mason partner and soon boom! You're not around anymore to dispute it and DE70 is confTown to endgame. The assumption that masons were immune to cult was just a hope, not anything to count on (and Korina's non-answer on that topic was a hint to not disregard the threat). I was racking my brains for ways he could possibly have convinced you guys he was definitely town and thus made you willing to confirm him like this and couldn't come up with any. If he'd Friendly Neighbored one of you he'd be confirmed town, but only at the moment he sent the action, he could be recruited to cult that very same night since a recruit action would process after the FN. And how the hell would he feel confident enough to just announce he's mason without communication with you? A Neighborize seemed more likely since there seemed to be some sort of line of communication between him and you but that obviously doesn't say anything about his alignment, unless it was like a Loyal Announcing Neighborizer that announced the modifier as well (which is not the normal functionality) and again, still cultable. If he had some invention he could use to confirm himself like being given mason there was no source for it since Flea had claimed targeting others, and even if it somehow came from an unclaimed source there was no reason to lie that he was there all along. I literally felt like I was going crazy, so thoroughly were the things I knew to be false being supported by people who I knew

were

on my team.

Were you keeping up with the Mason chat? I was pretty clear that I didn't trust it at all, and had contingencies in place for if Abnegation had been culted

[Radical Rat]

Sorry if I've been coming off excessively harsh. I enjoyed the game a lot; game circumstances and some of my own personal trust issues just didn't mix well towards the end there.

I shouldn't have any redactions (good thing I don't think I'll ever care to do that since I wouldn't be able to point to them here if I did).

You're good, don't worry about it. Especially knowing you didn't see how skeptical I was of everything in the mason chat, your reaction makes a lot of sense, I'd probably have been panicking too