House of the Dragon - Game Over!
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
- False Prophet
- False Prophet
- Posts: 16670
- Joined: October 7, 2016
- Pronoun: She/Her
- Location: Between Snohomish and Monroe, WA
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
- False Prophet
- False Prophet
- Posts: 16670
- Joined: October 7, 2016
- Pronoun: She/Her
- Location: Between Snohomish and Monroe, WA
Ah fuck there's a post restriction I didn't even notice. xD
Gotta be annoying and be wallpostey I guess rather than annoying and spampostey then.
For the record, the first three are the only three I would definitively trust to be competent in the King position.In post 0, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:5. Lukewarm
9. Dannflor
18. Lady Lambdadelta
15. Datisi
7. Thestatusquo
8. VPBaltar
The latter three are possible. (VPBaltar's rusty which is why he's not up higher, Shea's less rusty but still doesn't play as often, Datisi does play but while he's obvtown when town I'm not sure that he's actually reliable when it comes to scumhunting.)
VOTE: Lady Lambdadelta
I think that, assuming LLD is town, she's the best overall holder of all the King's abilities. Dannflor would be good at selecting counsel to be bulletproof, Lukewarm would be good at selecting scum to execute, but I think that LLD is the best balance of all three.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
- False Prophet
- False Prophet
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- Joined: October 7, 2016
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- Location: Between Snohomish and Monroe, WA
Firebringer.In post 16, Firebringer wrote:dare u to mod kill me!
In post 8, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:EgoTown.
Town?In post 13, ProfessorDrapion wrote:A post count?
Bro I usually do post counts on a 48 hour day phase game and almost max it out, guess I’m gonna have to meme for most of this game and not care too much.
Scum?
Scum. </3
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
- False Prophet
- False Prophet
- Posts: 16670
- Joined: October 7, 2016
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- Location: Between Snohomish and Monroe, WA
Right now we're not voting for a player to eliminate them.In post 20, Firebringer wrote:
u trying to start a fight page 1. this is how ur gonna start a fight page 1 lolIn post 17, mastina wrote:VOTE: Lady Lambdadelta
We're voting for an, ideally town, player, a town player that essentially gets a free vig shot, potential chance at a bulletproof, and gets to select a counsel which presumably does town things.
If LLD is town, she is the best player for all three of those overall.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
- False Prophet
- False Prophet
- Posts: 16670
- Joined: October 7, 2016
- Pronoun: She/Her
- Location: Between Snohomish and Monroe, WA
Ngl I was caught off-guard by the number of posts in the game thread given the posting restriction--I was planning on catching up yesterday, but when I saw how many posts there were, I realized I couldn't.
Hopefully, y'all fearing hitting the post count limit will leave the game quieter so I have less to catch up on in the future.
Town!In post 59, Andante wrote:Everything about these posts scream like nervous/unsure mafia here. Like, the progression of these posts...
Yup, and probably you, too!In post 69, Datisi wrote:andante twon yes?
Town?In post 29, Charloux wrote:Dann would make a great stable and moderate king.
VOTE: Enchant
Dann... is a boring choice
My turn to have paranoia of being buddied.In post 31, Rhaenyra wrote:mastina should be King.
Scum?
Oh I agree! LLD isn't as easy to read as Dannflor.In post 28, GuiltyLion wrote:VOTE: Dannflor
LLD is not a bad choice but I think Dannflor is easier to read
That said, I ain't voting Dannflor here.
That's def plausible.In post 39, Lukewarm wrote:The vt has arrived
My priority is town > has good reads > has the ability to convince people.In post 35, Datisi wrote:i'm gonna go out on a limb and say that we should not be confined to the three choices that mastina proposed. we should also focus on electing someone we already think is town rather than someone who is "easy to read". it seems to me that the "execution" mechanic is net neutral in town hands but potentially scumsiding in scum hands. assuming the king isn't a gamethrower, it's more important that town hold it. also a townie town king would potentially make it easier to determine whether there's scum in the kingsguard.
But on page one, I wouldn't know who that would be, so selecting the players who are best at those three traits generically from past experience seemed like a good place to start.
Oh wow Dann your scumgame is
reallydamn obvious.
HURT: Dannflor-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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Wait, since when???In post 120, VP Baltar wrote:I kind of liked mastina's post, but they're like good and shit
Town.In post 85, VP Baltar wrote:What up psychos! I'll read this game later, but we all know VOTE: datisi for justice.
Eh you can be town.In post 73, UNOwen wrote:In post 66, JunkoChan wrote:Yeah yeah,I read the post, and I can't find the seven days thing
Did someone ask this is the scum pt and you forgot?In post 67, JunkoChan wrote:I think we got a candidate for first execution
This looks like a fake progression to me.In post 68, JunkoChan wrote:Ah it does Say seven nvm
I don'tIn post 124, VP Baltar wrote:Hi, we haven't played together. Do you usually shitpost as town?thinkso, but I'm not sure tbh.
I do!In post 84, Datisi wrote:unowen, do you think junko is scum for this?
Oh it's quite simple.In post 114, Dannflor wrote:Mastina why did you call my opening post scum but also discuss me as a potential King target
My opening post was made without reading the thread, based off of the experiences I have of players--you'rereallyDann good at a lot of aspects of being town.
And then I saw your posts and realized you're also really really bad at scum since you're basically the most obvscum to have ever obvscummed.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
- False Prophet
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In post 132, Thestatusquo wrote:Try not to give me 30 pages to read in the meanwhile.NARRATOR:And so, the players decided to give Shea 30 pages to read in the meanwhile.
Well you've definitely got at least one!In post 131, Andante wrote:Datisi/GL/UNO/Dann
There is almost certaintly at least 2 scum in these 4. Just saying.
I also gutread UNO as scum initially but later things made me think more town.
Datisi is, loosely, looking town to me (albeit not as strongly as I'd prefer; it's explicitly a weak read), so if there's a second in there, it's GL.
Their chats in the scum PT.In post 149, VP Baltar wrote:
What about dann specifically gives you good vibes?In post 146, JunkoChan wrote:right now I'm feeling Dann and Datisi are okay-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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Btw I, explicitly, have zero faith in my ability to read Firebringer, but hedoeslook town to me for what it's worth.
And reaffirming my townread on you.In post 168, Dwlee99 wrote:I didn't realize what I was voting for when I voted for enchant oh no oh no oh no
In post 158, Andante wrote:I would like to take back my "Junko probably town" and since I have declared Datisi town, that means the 4 I don't trust are Dann/GL/Junko/UNOTherewe go! THAT list is 2/4 minimum, potentially more.
Tbh I wouldn't mind voting Andante queen here, honestly. She's obvtown, and her thoughts are largely aligned with my own.In post 153, Andante wrote:I'm so confused at how you have conclusively arrived at "Dann is town"
Back to thinking town, here.In post 184, ProfessorDrapion wrote:Well it doesn’t say VT but right now I only have 2 tools.
I'm still reading up, but let me say, I am thinking this is a town-Lukewarm, here.In post 197, Lukewarm wrote:I fully read up, but did not feel like I retained much other then thinking this feels like town andante.
Dann's tone is anything but chill; it's flat as fuck. Everything he's done has been forced, but not forced in the town way. Forced in the scum way, where he is doing things that he expects to look good but aren't actually good and don't fit with what a real town-Dann would be doing.In post 152, JunkoChan wrote:3. just generaly chill tone, dann doesn't like playing as scum as far as I know-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
- False Prophet
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Reaffirming my townread btw.In post 202, Enchant wrote:When i poison king, you are first on choping block, traitors.
Mightactually be scum.
Okay so this might be a bit of a weird take but like: while I agree with the reads, it kinda looks like scum clearing town, rather than town townreading town.In post 203, Bellaphant wrote:Sorry, yesterday was busy, but I have read and have some town reads (andante, datisi, firebringer) and one scum read (unown). Enchant could be town?
Funny you say that, Dann, about how you expect scum would be playing.In post 204, Dannflor wrote:There is a performative / "showing off" tone to both of these posts that comes from scum a lot more often than not.
feel like you are putting on a show. There's a lot of like... feigned confidence here that I don't usually see townie's put into their page 3 reads. It reads like scum projecting confidence in order to see more town. 50 feels like you are giving a presentation where the thesis is that "look I am having an in depth thought process on JunkoChan" not a townie who actually suspects JunkoChan. And there's like no attempt to reach out to or sort Junko. Just very definitive declarative statements with confidence that I don't think you'd actually feel here as town.
64 is just LAMIST. Like literally, "oh look at me I'm so town I read everything because I'm uninformed." It has this anxious look at me I'm so town energy that I feel like almost all your posts contain in some way.
These posts are pretty much exactly how I'd expect scum to be playingthis game early knowing that the most important thing for them is to get town read and get into a position of literal power
'Cause literally everything you're accusing Andante of here, you're the one actually guilty of doing.
No, seriously, this is legit MY case on you, but substituting Andante in: your posts were performative and showing off. You were putting on a show with feigned confidence thatnevercomes from infamously-cautious town-Dannflor. You're projecting confidence to seem more town. You're making a presentation where the thesis is "look I have in-depth thoughts on Andante", not a town player actually suspecting her. And there's no attempt to sort her. Just a scumread declared definitively with confidence. Your posts reek of LAMIST.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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Did Andante literally call a minimum of 3/4???In post 209, Dannflor wrote:I liked GL poking Datisi. I think calling their back and forth meaningless is a really surface level read of their discussion. I think 108 where GL is trying to dig into the difference between what Datisi might believe and what Datisi might believe others to believe is a pretty insightful difference and it's one of the first solving posts in the game that I feel good about from the standpoint of "was this person trying to solve someone's alignment or just look solvy and towny"
GL is a good player and I'm not going to pretend I can't be wrong, but off the first 6 pages or so I've had the best feelings about his slot.
in general I just like his reaction to the King discussion because I don't feel he's really positioning to be in a position of power. also his reasoning for me as King is like the only reasoning for me as King I've liked so far. my pride says that I'm still a better scum player than he's assuming but I think from his perspective it makes a lot of sense
'Cause I'm beginning to think she did.
Funny, that's what your posts look like to me!In post 208, Dannflor wrote:You have this very anxious "NEED TO POST" energy about you here, if you're town you know you're town
Well whadda ya know, I happen to think your posting lacks empathy which is your signature towntell, so......In post 208, Dannflor wrote:n general there's like... a lack of empathy in your solving that I would expect from a town point of view
HURT: Dannflor
VOTE: Andante-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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I mean I needed to vote someone and it was literally page one. I didn't exactly have a lot to form an opinion on alignment-wise, now, did I?In post 235, Andresvmb wrote:I don’t mind your strategy of selecting which players would be best suited for the role of King and voicing that view early. What I am finding a bit interesting is your insistence on having one specific player picked when you have not been able to form an opinion on their alignment.
I trust Andante, here. I don't think she would throw with her choices.In post 245, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:So this is a much more important vote than some people are allowing for.
If this is Andres not realizing he was casting a king vote, is town. (No, not for the townslip. Well, kinda for the townslip. But not really.)In post 232, Andresvmb wrote:VOTE: mastina
Hello all. Looking forward to playing a game with 5 Scum - seems a bit crazy. Let’s get ‘em.Yup, town.
Alright, I'm starting to see Datisi town more strongly now!In post 241, Datisi wrote:i am, yeah. i'm not planning to like, try to force it through, because i think it's more hassle than it's actually worth, but i definitely wouldn't refuse it.
(Dannflor is scum not realizing he picked a really fucking bad fight to pick.)In post 210, Dannflor wrote:
is adante just like super super polarized or somethingIn post 150, Firebringer wrote:Andante is being andante nothing to worry about here. Town-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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It does make me think LLD is town btw--I don't think that a scum-LLD fakes this mistake and I don't think a scum-LLD makes it. Obviously, not locked in because LLD is LLD, she is both capable of derping it up as scum and of faking the derp as scum, but while I know she CAN legit derp and I know she CAN fake derp, I think the derp is real and from town, not from scum.In post 260, JunkoChan wrote:ma lady, king cannot execute 2 days in a row-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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Basically, there's a difference between CAN do an action, and actuallyIn post 972, mastina wrote:
It does make me think LLD is town btw--I don't think that a scum-LLD fakes this mistake and I don't think a scum-LLD makes it. Obviously, not locked in because LLD is LLD, she is both capable of derping it up as scum and of faking the derp as scum, but while I know she CAN legit derp and I know she CAN fake derp, I think the derp is real and from town, not from scum.In post 260, JunkoChan wrote:ma lady, king cannot execute 2 days in a rowwilldo it.
In this game, I don't think LLD makes that post as scum not knowing the execute is D1 only.
In this game, I don't think LLD fakes that as a townslip.
In this game, I feel like LLD wouldn't do either as scum, so in this game, in spite of it being something which CAN come from scum, I think comes from town.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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Oh I think I was the one who derped.In post 273, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:If you need a more indepth explination I'll write it in word form but as it stands, I am assuming you pieced it together?
NEVERMIND THEN.
(LLD still looks town, mind you, but nothing beyond her scumrange. I mean, nothing is beyond her scumrange, but with the lack of derp, there's nothing that makes me go "oh, I know scum-LLD can do that, but I don't think she did", at least, not yet, if that makes sense.)-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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I am confused by this pick.In post 279, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:Vote: UNOwen
This is my most confident pick for town at the moment, though I suspect they would struggle to be king.
And I'm not sure what it means for LLD's alignment tbh. A bit ambivalent, but Ithinkit's slight more likely to be from a town-LLD? It feels like an "out-there" take, but one a scum-LLD wouldn't make.
Basically, is the baffling vote town or scum, and I think it's at least slightly +town?
For the record I kinda want to vote LLD since I think that regardless of her alignment she'd execute Dann, but just in case she's scum and just in case she wouldn't, I'm sticking with Andante.In post 285, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:
I am.In post 283, Dannflor wrote:Why aren't you explaining and trying to convince others of your UNOwen read
Why are you asking looping rhetorical questions that are specifically worded in ways to try and lead assumptions to players who read them?
You haven't asked me a single question yet about why I believe what I believe, instead you asked me two questions to try to pin me down to something and then followed up with a trap of "well if you believe that, why aren't you pushing it?"
This is why I don't trust you.
(She's totally right on Dann btw.)
(Because he's scum.)In post 286, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:An exercise left to the reader, I think.
Funny, because that's me, with your approach!In post 288, Dannflor wrote:I don't like the way you're approaching this conversation
I don't trust how you're presenting-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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Same. I wouldn't have noticed if you hadn't mentioned it, honestly.In post 373, Lukewarm wrote:Oh shit... I have not been reading anything above the vote count, assuming it was all flavor. I see now that the PRs are going there
(For the record, I've thought Baltar's content was town, but I admit I've zero recent experience with him at all. So like. I might trust LLD in that read if it holds.)In post 331, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:Baltar is active, and in this position.
(I should mention that while LLD I'm not getting as locktowned, I AM locktowning Andres from this discussion.)
Oh definitely. I prefer Andante over Andres, but he's at about her levels of town to me.In post 355, VP Baltar wrote:Andres might be town?
+1.In post 360, Thestatusquo wrote:This is a good andante post. I agree with most of what she's saying about the tone and vibes of these posts.
Okay I can see why LLD thinks Baltar is scum. This post is v easy for scum to make and doesn't look like an actual real town spread, so much as an attempt to make an actual real town spread which is too clean/neat lacking in chaos to actually be true.In post 361, VP Baltar wrote:I'd probably townbin andante and andres at this point. Dann and datisi are maybe in town lean territory for me. Dwlee I could see as town who hasn't had a real chance to engage yet.
You and mastina are maybe giving me slightly bad vibes, but that could be my internal objections to anyone trying too hard to shape the day.
Off the top of my head, I think I would null pile everyone else.
This isn't Dannflor-as-town-frustration.In post 316, Dannflor wrote:this is frustrating
I've seen Dannflor's frustration when he's town.
And this is just a flat statement. It doesn't have the same sincerity and genuineness that a real town-Dannflor has. He's basically just phoning it in.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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- Location: Between Snohomish and Monroe, WA
Okay so like, full disclosure, I'm kinda losing brainpower reading right now. Work left me a lot more tired today than I thought apparently. (Wednesday is my last work day so I have the entirety of tomorrow evening technically free, but between the paranormal detour and the high likelihood tomorrow is like today, it's most likely that the best days for me will be Thursday Friday Saturday and Sunday.)In post 408, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:It's... either Shea just read what I expected and is snowing me hard or he's the most town person in the game RN and it's hard for me to see others not seeing it?
But actually, while that's making catching up nightmarish it's also making me think things I normally don't? What's that called again? Might be a plurality thing, it was a different voice than normal or maybe it's a normal thing, but: I'm second-guessing the voice and my logical side is screaming she was wrong, but there was something that pinged me strongly from this as being scum.
I need to figure out how to get coherent thoughts, right now I'm like...flipping on most.
Uhhh, I guess I can give the reads I'mnotflipping on:
LOCKTOWN:
{Andante, Andresvmp}
TOWN:
{Lukewarm}
{Dwlee99, Enchant}
LEAN TOWN:
{Datisi}
SCUM:
{Dannflor}
The rest I either have no read on or my read is shifting on a lot right now.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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Actually, no, I normally can engage in real time, too.In post 468, Dannflor wrote:isn't this how mastina always plays lmao
I'm just,
1: too busy tonight (I've got less than 3 hours for everything I need to do tonight, including other things onsite),
2: too tired tonight,
3: too lacking in energy to do it tonight.
(Real time interactions, especially real time interactions while I am also catching up, burn me up. No, literally. My body heats up. I genuinely get HOT from it. Literally becomefeverishfrom posting catchups simultaneous to reading in real time. And sometimes I end up getting nested catchups, where I am catching up on the thread, respond to a current post that takes time, and then have more in that time, but also more made after that, where I need to catch up in literally three different spots at once. Sometimes, I can do that. Right now, tonight--nope, fuck that. I'm sorry, I won't be doing it indefinitely, butright now, I can't engage in real time. Tomorrow, maybe. Thursday, definitely. But right NOW, I just can't.)
Maybe don't post 30 pages worth of posts in a game I was expecting to be slow-paced thanks to the post restriction,In post 440, Thestatusquo wrote:I swear to god if I am subjected to mastina taking her patented strategy of "constantly catching up" and "responding to things that happened 5 days ago in giant wall posts" for the whole game I am going to throw a fucking temper tantrum. So please do not do that or I will do whatever is in my power to get you eliminated regardless of either of our alignments.
Less than 48 hours into the gameday,
When I am beginning my work week and have to go to bed at the hours I normally would prefer to be playing at.
(I am currently working the morning shift, requiring me to get up at 3:30 am on Mondays Tuesdays Wednesdays. Which means I need to go to bed before 9:30 pm on Sundays, Mondays, and Tuesdays. I'm always gonna fall behind on those three days, but I do promise that once I am caught up and once it is Wednesday/Thursday/Friday/Saturday/maybe-Sunday, I will be actively engaging in real time more. But like--y'all did the worst possible things during the worst possible time for me to NOT be in constant catchup mode. You have only yourselves to blame.)
I really don't get why people are townreading Junko.In post 409, Lukewarm wrote:I am at [ Junko,] town
Like.
I'm reading them explain their townreads.
But I'm like.
I don't get why people are townreading Junko.
I don't see it.
Yeah Dannflor is scum and he's managed to talk me into a Rhae townread.In post 456, Dannflor wrote:I don't like Rhae's "I hate mountainous" 33, it's both presumptuous and a pre-emptive excuse that's dressed up to look a lot more towny than ProfessorDrapion's was. which is why I'm semi-inclined to believe Drapion throwing a fit whereas Rhae seems more self conscious about shitposting
I think 58 is mildly LAMIST and it feels out of touch with the actual conversation that was happening with Junko
idk Rhae gives me the vibe of just Posting to Post more than anyone else in this game. that might be more personality indicative than alignment indicative but idk who Rhae is to verify that.
I think the fact that she is trying to vibe as shit poster but also seems to have this underlying anxiety about how he is being read about sums up my uneasiness with that slot
I wasn't liking Rhae's buddying up to me (I know who she is, and I know she likes to play with me, but the strong push of me as town from the getgo before I've towned it up at all gave me pause, as well as her posts not containing the towntells I was expecting), but Dannflor has managed to talk me into her being town because seeing him push it has made me realize Rhae isn't actually scum for those things.
Basically, his perspective tells me that Rhae is town and my perspective wasn't right when it had Rhae as suspect, if that makes sense.
It both makes Rhae town, and Dann scum, but not because of Dann pushing Rhae as scum, but rather because he helped put her under a different lens allowing me to view her from a different angle and from that different angle I saw her town and Dann is always scum.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
- False Prophet
- False Prophet
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- Pronoun: She/Her
- Location: Between Snohomish and Monroe, WA
(Btw side-note, but this is also why I really fucking need a break from being mastina. That pattern is literally destroying my life. But people keep inviting me to play their games, and I don't know how to say no to a game invite. I'm getting physically, mentally, and emotionally stressed, overwhelmed, exhausted, and it genuinely is destroying my life.In post 1020, mastina wrote:(Real time interactions, especially real time interactions while I am also catching up, burn me up. No, literally. My body heats up. I genuinely get HOT from it. Literally becomefeverishfrom posting catchups simultaneous to reading in real time. And sometimes I end up getting nested catchups, where I am catching up on the thread, respond to a current post that takes time, and then have more in that time, but also more made after that, where I need to catch up in literally three different spots at once.)
When I say I get heated, I mean my skin becomeshot to the touch. From playing MAFIA. It's literally so impactful on my life that my SKIN becomes HOT. When I say I become feverish, that'snot hyperbole. I, quite literally, become HOT from playing mafia. I overheat. I burn up. I literally roast from it. Physically, and mentally, and emotionally.
I need a break, but I am too stupid to let myself have one. Every time, I keep telling myself, "okay, I've been very unhealthy in mafia games lately, this time I'll have a better balance", but I've actually been gettingworse. And I can't do that right now. I genuinely can't. Not right now. After I saw the game had a posting restriction, I thought it'd be more chill. That I could afford to take a break. But clearly, I can't. I see y'all posting right now. I'm catching up faster than you're posting, but onlybarely. And with how tired I am I might not finish tonight. Which means I legit might not be able to tonight, which will make tomorrow worse. I AM trying tho. Both to be healthier, and also, to give y'all the engagement you deserve. But like--don't fucking pretend those two things don't conflict. I'm trying to balance them.)
For the record, I believe that my style back then was more accurate so I was a better player back then. My "push hard, never give up on pushing" style (slowly moving out of it because again, that's more of the mastina ideal and I am burned out on being mastina, I just want a fucking break from living up to that standard because it isIn post 523, Rhaenyra wrote:I will forever hold this game as proof she is competent scumhunter
She isn't the best, that's true, but she is still competent in her own right.exhausting) I believe produces more town wins, and it is easier for me to do casually, and it is more fun, and it raises engagement more.
But my current playstyle, in spite of being more obvtown and all of those things, is also less accurate than my old style that I had back then. Since I'm burning out on being mastina I was thinking of maybe reviving the old style a la Steven Universe 2, but like. The current-me isn't as accurate as I was back then, but wins more games than back then; the current me, however, is taking too much of my energy so I wanna return to the older "accurate" style rather than the "push regardless" style back then.
I legit don't think I can as long as I'm playing on mastina tho. Every time I try to break away from being mastina, I end up doubling down and become even more of the mastina ideal. (Ah well. I'm here now. Gotta play regardless.)
Because she's Rhae. Her making the vote is just her being her, with me in the game.In post 505, Datisi wrote:why do you want mastina to be king, rhae?
It tracks with her mindset as a mafia player and what I know about her, her worldviews, perspectives, etc.
I wasn't sure of her alignment from it and thought she was buddying up to me, but I now think that she was doing it as town and legit thought I was a good pick.
Can I just say that half of Datisi's posts make me wanna locktown him (not this half, this is theIn post 508, Datisi wrote:ah yes, scumtisi townreading vp baltar, a strategy widely known to have only the effect of him getting pocketed and never resulting in that blowing up in scumtisi's face, very goodotherhalf), and half of his posts like this one make me go "noooooooo, don't do that"?
I stillleantown overall, the overall narrative of Datisi seems town and he has more good posts than bad, but like. He does have pinging posts like this.
Take it with a grain of salt because Firebringer is Firebringer and I am mastina, but like: I do townread this.In post 485, Firebringer wrote:its a big game. u don't need to have it all with u to do what u want
I know I can't read Firebringer.
But I am townreading Firebringer.
Alright so Rhae CAN fake this as scum, but I really don't think she IS, so I'm pretty damn confident she's town, here. Like, not the locktown Andante and Andres are, but legit just below them.In post 524, Rhaenyra wrote:so what exactly is wrong with the fact that were hold mutual respect for each other's play? The fact that you don't? At the risk of sounding rude, piss on that.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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Btw since you're bringing that video up I should point out long-standing gripes I have with it:In post 568, Thestatusquo wrote:
Two of the games given involved games I replaced out of. (I was replaced out of the mollie hydra game so I was not a player at the time of my elimination; I never made a single post in the Metal Sonic hydra game.) Games I replaced out of should NOT count as games because no fucking duh. The site rules say as much these days.
And the Kingdom Hearts game actuallyprovedmy point, not disproving it, as I was the last scum on the day before lylo, demonstrating that what I was saying was actually true for that game. (If I recall correctly, the post said that I usually don't go down early as scum--and Kingdom Hearts was an example which proved that I did not go down early as scum.)
That having been said, while the video has factual inaccuracies in it, the message which at the time wasn't very accurate, has since become almost always true.
At the time the video was made, scumastina almost never went down early. She was almost always around at or near endgame. In that era I had countless strong performances like XP Mafia, Star Wars Rogue One, Encore Mafia, and so on and so forth, where, yes, I did in fact go deep, and often win.
But hilariously enough, shortly after that video was made, scumastina began to go down earlyevery single game. I went on something like athree year streakof being eliminated as scum early and often. I could not scum, at all. I legit couldn't survive. Warehouse 13, DEFCON 5, Animals UPick, and half a dozen other scumgames (Skyrim, that one Jingle micro, etc.), I died early, and it wasn't until this year that I had a scumgame where I didn't. So like. The video in spite of its factual inaccuracies ismoreaccurate now than ever before.
Meaning, I can't really complain at its usage. It wasn't true at the time and has factual inaccuracies within, but it's true now so is more apt than ever before and I'll never argue otherwise.
(I mean, Rhaenya said she knows I can contribute to the town wincon, that doesn't inherently mean I am town because as scum I bus and make pro-town mechanics choices so she is right regardless of my alignment; I am going to help the town wincon. )In post 559, Enchant wrote:How you know she not mafia.
No need, I don't want the job! My reads are too shit to be trusted with a vig.In post 538, Thestatusquo wrote:I am pretty sure I can make it so mastina does not get elected king in this game pretty easily.
The fact that the king effectively gets a vig is proof enough of that.In post 525, Thestatusquo wrote:nah, Mastina aint getting within 10 feet of king.
My strength is in pushing people, not in executing them; a vig is absolutely the absolute fucking worst role to give to me.
If I needed to use it to conftown myself, I would, but the vig this game doesn't do that (well, unless I shot scum obv), so like: I shouldn't be king.
Genuinely baffled by this btw because I legit don't do that in most of my games. I actually DO interact in real time most of the time.In post 525, Thestatusquo wrote:I want a king that posts in the thread in real time for one thing, and not one who will fall behind and then make wall catchup posts talking about things that happened a week ago while refusing to interact with anything going on in the thread at the time.
That's been my experience with mastina the last 2 or 3 times I've played with her and so far its looking like this game is the same
I can'tright now, but like...I've interacted in real time in literally every game I've had this year. Pokemon Large, CONTROL, Triplicate, Subreddit, UPick a Normal, Ginggie's UPick, NQN II, Datisi's Cafe...literally every single one of those, I was interacting in real time.
I will be this game, later this week, but like. It's genuinely baffling that you see that as the norm. Itusedto be. It WAS the norm. But it hasn't been the norm for literally over a year at least. In the last year if not longer, real time has been the norm. (The mastina philosophy of pushing hard is more effective if done in real time. Like, I get better results when I engage in real time, so...I do.)
I mean, I am in fact town, but like: anyone (outside of you) saying that I am town is probably lying their asses off.In post 530, Rhaenyra wrote:That's her town trait. I thought we were looking for a town player to crown, not necessarily a likeable one.
I very much havenottowned it up, yet.
Like--I know me. I know my meta. I know how I look. And I know that to ME, I don't look town, yet. To ME, I know I'm not looking town, yet. And if I'm not looking town to ME, that means there's no way in hell I should be looking town to other people. I'll show my towniness off later this week when I can engage in real time, but I very much am not townyet.
That said, I'm also not scum so scumreads on me are also lying their asses of. If their read on me isn't "null", then they're probably bullshitting because ain't no way they actually think I'm an alignment from what I've given.
Alright 527 + this = more comfortable with Datisi town.In post 529, Datisi wrote:
are you voting for me just because you know i'm gonna make you master of coin or whatever other title you wantIn post 520, Firebringer wrote:VOTE: Datisi
Maybe so, but it hard-spews Rhaenya as town, here. Now I actuallyIn post 553, Thestatusquo wrote:That's some of the most unhinged posting I've ever seen in almost 20 years on this site.amputting her on the same town tier as Andante and Andresvmp.
She's never scum here, ever.
You might be scum for this viewpoint tho.In post 574, VP Baltar wrote:I think Rhaenyra is probably scum trying to burn through their posts so they don't have to participate later today. Prove me wrong by not posting.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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I feel bad for saying no to this.In post 1024, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:yo, mastina, you wanna talk game instead of catchuping forever, how about now?
But I am going to have to say no to this.
I don't have the energy to do it right now.
I promise I will!
Just not tonight.
Catching up not in real time is better than doing nothing.
Real-time interactions is better than catching up, yeah, but like.
Real-time > catching up > nothing.
I can't handle real-time right now (maybe tomorrow, if not then then def Thursday), so the options are catching up or doing nothing.
I'd prefer not to do nothing, thankyouverymuch.
So I'm unfortunately gonna have to decline your offer.
(I will say tho that I'm seeingsomeof the new content. I'm responding to your post, for instance. Some, not all. About 40-80%, I'm seeing. I just don't have the energy to respond to it right now. I'll get to it tho.)-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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I mean, technically, whoever is made King can decide not to put up with my playstyle--it'd just be tremendously stupid of them to do so.In post 582, Rhaenyra wrote:Also, here is news for you. You'll have to put up with mastina's playstyle whether she is made King or not. Shocking, ain't it?
Okay back to thinking LLD-town. (I don't know why, this post shouldn't really do anything. But like. I just went "oh LLD town" to it, so...)In post 580, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:
Don't you group us together. I have no fucking clue what you've been smoking these past 2 pages.In post 579, Rhaenyra wrote:Thestatusquo has been stabbed in the back by JJaime Lannister for thinking he knows better than us peasants.
I really, REALLY don't understand why people are seeing Junko as town.
This is gonna feel like karmic irony but I really feel like people are doing to Junko,
What I normally do to people.
That is to say, locking in an early read on them off of one thing, and then, never bothering to reassess.
I just don't see Junko town here, at all, and everyone seeing that is just...
...What are you seeing.
Holy shit GuiltyLion reallyIn post 589, GuiltyLion wrote:I've read upisscum.
It genuinely is Dannflor + GuiltyLion.
Andante no, please stay on target. <3In post 627, Andante wrote:yall are like posting just to post at this rate… so anyways, 15 pages later… I think Dann would be a good king, I was loving his posts and he seems to be playing this game very logically/reasonably so yeah. DANN FOR KING!!!
VOTE: Dann
Think that through; who would be scum with GL?In post 632, Andante wrote:GL is coming for my head cause I called him maf
It's literally Dann+GL.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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I mean at the time I genuinely had a lot to be proud of. I unironically didn't need to be arrogant, because my results backed it up.In post 1035, Andresvmb wrote:Though you did sound like an arrogant prick in how you described your own Scum play to be fair hahaha
That having been said, I was scum in the game the video was made, and that meant I was deliberately exaggerating things. Which meant me being an arrogant prick was my attempt to play to my wincon. (Mind you, didn't work, but the tone/words/etc. were deliberately selected to be exactly that, an arrogant prick. I wasn't trying to be not one, I was trying to deliberately be one, and I succeeded. Didn't help, but I did what I set out to do.)-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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...I'M BEING BAITED INTO REAL-TIME INTERACTIONS BY PEOPLE SAYING THINGS THAT INVOKE MY NARCISSISTIC EGO INTO WANTING TO RESPOND.In post 1038, mastina wrote:
I mean at the time I genuinely had a lot to be proud of. I unironically didn't need to be arrogant, because my results backed it up.In post 1035, Andresvmb wrote:Though you did sound like an arrogant prick in how you described your own Scum play to be fair hahaha
That having been said, I was scum in the game the video was made, and that meant I was deliberately exaggerating things. Which meant me being an arrogant prick was my attempt to play to my wincon. (Mind you, didn't work, but the tone/words/etc. were deliberately selected to be exactly that, an arrogant prick. I wasn't trying to be not one, I was trying to deliberately be one, and I succeeded. Didn't help, but I did what I set out to do.)
I NEED TO FUCKING EAT GODDAMMIT I LITERALLY CAN'T DO THIS-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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I appreciate the vote (literally) of confidence in me, but I don't think I can do that. <3In post 688, Rhaenyra wrote:Because I genuinely think that mastina can lead us well if she is town.
My ability to be accurate is based off of a combination of {playerlist, real life, luck}. I have one of the worst playerlists for me to read, one of the worst rl situations right now to be accurate, and shit luck in general.
It'd be better in the hands of someone else.
I still intend to give my thoughts, but I literally cannot lead this game.
---
Genuine question btw; has Firebringer ever done anything like 656 as scum?
No, seriously; I want to know.
It doesn't look faked, and if he's never done it before as scum, then he's probably town.
Improperly done, but current loose/rough readslist:
LOCKTOWN:
{Rhaenyra, Andresvmb, Andante}
TOWN:
{Lukewarm, Datisi}
{Dwlee99, Enchant}
{Firebringer}
MAYBE TOWN:
{Unowen, Charloux}
{ProfessorDrapion} (mightdeserve to be up with the other two?)
PLACING:
{Thestatusquo} (I honestly don't know, I kinda want to trust the townreads there but I'm having issues really getting a read of my own) {Lady LambdaDelta} (lean town right now)
???
{Titus, PenguinPower}
{Bellaphant}
LEAN SCUM:
{Junkochan}
PLACING BUT LEAN SCUM:
{VP Baltar}
SCUM:
{GuiltyLion}
{Dannflor}-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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Oh, certainly!In post 748, Dannflor wrote:I kind of almost wonder if the sheer number of people calling adante obvious town does in fact mean she is just town and there are TMIers in the mix
But I also think that the push against Andante comes from scum, too.
"but mastina, scumbuddies can talk to each other".
That doesn't mean they're gonna be uniform and share details about a specific player. You can argue that's optimal play, that don't mean they'll actually do it. Which is to say, no, I don't think the ideas of "there are scum who TMI defended Andante" is contradictory with the ideas of you and GL being scum who didn't know better than to push Andante. Scum don't have that perfect a communication link. And even if theydid, there are tangible reasons to fake not having it.
So like, I agree with you that there's scum in the TMI defenders of Andante--but still think that you and GL pushing there is scum.
Yup, GuiltyLion is scum. (This whole post is scum tbh.)In post 741, GuiltyLion wrote:Can you (and any other Andante town readers who want to jump in) give me a summary of why this is specifically a town!Andante game? Or where the idea that she couldn't replicate this as scum comes from?-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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I thought about that.In post 792, Titus wrote:I think she's scum using mastina as a shield.
It was possible at the beginning of the game!
Not anymore. This is her as town, period. End of discussion.
You on the other hand, are just *static*. Which is in of itself alarming.
And you didn't decide to push it...why?In post 752, GuiltyLion wrote:
I had this thought with Bellaphant specificallyIn post 748, Dannflor wrote:I kind of almost wonder if the sheer number of people calling adante obvious town does in fact mean she is just town and there are TMIers in the mix
Also true, but I kinda think it means you're scum with GL tbh.In post 767, Bellaphant wrote:Tbh kinda looks like you just saw my name and decided to pick it out of a hat.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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(On that note I legit am proud of myself, 40 pages in one day is a lot more than I normally can do.)In post 917, GuiltyLion wrote:I can't wait for 3 days and 20 pages from now when we'll get to read Mastina's reaction to Rhaenyra's campaign on her behalf
Nooooooooo. I don't think, I just do. If I thought I'd be a smarter player than I am.In post 920, Andante wrote: she seems like someone who'd really think out the people she nominates
Tomorrow! (I hope.)In post 908, Dannflor wrote:I'm talking about not being able to talk to her in real time
If you say things I feel are worth engaging in.
Yup!In post 921, Rhaenyra wrote:Spoiler alert: She'll think it towny. Chaotically towny, to be sure, but still towny.
Almost had a visceral reaction to this before I realized it was Dannflor trying to bait exactly that out of me. Suffice to say: Dannflor knows I am town here and that my read on him is right.In post 924, Dannflor wrote:I don't currently really believe her read on me but I didn't really believe some of her pushes in Datisi's Cafe until later either
It was that entire series of posts.In post 897, Dannflor wrote:
I have hard time believing you truly scum read me based off that postIn post 890, mastina wrote:Oh wow Dann your scumgame is really damn obvious.
Your RVS post looked like scum, and then you made an entire series of posts that hit every alarm bell I had.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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It didn't, I cut out a lot of the context and don't include it when writing my conclusions. Instead of quoting five posts and the entirety of them, I quote one snippet of one post to cut down on the total length of what I am quoting.In post 938, GuiltyLion wrote:even assuming town!Andante, giving a townread on her there is super boring and safe, how does that one read in particular lead to town!Lukewarm with any confidence?
It was everything Lukewarm was saying there that was town.
I def can't do it now but Thursdayish is perfect for me!In post 945, Andante wrote:Mastina, when you are caught up, I wanna discuss reads with you, cause thus far no one has really cared for any of my reads except what I think of them, this is gonna get dangerous though... so dangerous.. cause some of these reads I make all rely on certain connections I see between people, so like, me sitting here now, seeing that you definitely agree with that pool of 4 being sus... has me thinking back...(cause that pool has shifted a bit now...) and I'm just sitting here like, Well, UNO did go silent after I started pushing there.... UNO was one of the first to call me town/vote me king, but now won't mention my name with king lol ahhhh ok, soo you're catching up, I need to calm down, I'm busy tomorrow, I'll aim for Thursday-ish with my list of reads/reasons and I'd LOVE your feedback on them! cause the only feedback I'll get from the rest of these guys is "your read on me makes no sense!!"
In their defense: I would be among them normally.In post 936, Rhaenyra wrote:'Everyone, my word is Gospel and anyone who disagrees with my opinions even slightly is scum or stupid!'
- 90% of players in this game
Like, that's legit the ideal of mastina. Literally my brand is built on absolute conviction that I am right.
It's just that I don't have the energy to be mastina right now and am trying to move away from that.
I still wanna say my word is gospel on Dannflor being scum and anyone who disagrees is stupid tho.
I sure did, and this ain't nothing like Datisi's Cafe.In post 946, Dannflor wrote:and I feel like you already witnessed that in Datisi's Cafe a fair bit
I mean, explicitly so, yes!In post 946, Dannflor wrote:also like, your read seems a little more believable now, but it seems to have come about based on posts after your initial scum read on me
Your RVS post reeked of scum, but like--it was an RVS post. It could've been wrong. I thought it scum, but it wasn't guaranteed to be right.
...And then you made non-RVS posts and the "holy shit he actuallyisscum!" hit.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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Okay but like, now I've given a lot of thoughts and many of them in real time.In post 970, Thestatusquo wrote:I literally did not say anything about her alignment
Youshouldhave thoughts to say there by now.
Maybe not confident alignment thoughts, but things you think about me.
You've been actively posting during my catchup, and reading, and seeing me closer and closer to caught up. You've given commentary on my posts, but nothoughtson them.
So.
What do you think?-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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Alright so the good news and the bad news;
The bad news is, I'm behind again and need to catch up.
The good news is,thistime I can also interact in real time, and I'm catching up now!
To be honest, I'm having a hard time locking Shea down but IIn post 1052, Thestatusquo wrote:I think you're likely town. I still don't want you to be king. I have some paranoia about how positively you interacted/commented specifically rhea and andante but I'll sort out those feelings later.thinkthat this is town. It randomly feels like it has nuance in a way a scum read wouldn't have, but if you asked me to point out what about it is so, I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly. I realize that TSQ is an incredibly veteran player with a good scumgame, but something about the thought process makes me think "this is a genuine nuanced thought", and not scum faking a thought.
Sure, but:In post 1054, Andresvmb wrote:@mastina I want to trust your reads, but you have 2 Scum when we know there’s 5. So you have way too many TRs.
I have four names south of null--VP Baltar is looking more and more scum to me.In post 1044, mastina wrote:MAYBE TOWN:
{Unowen, Charloux}
{ProfessorDrapion} (mightdeserve to be up with the other two?)
PLACING:
{Thestatusquo} (I honestly don't know, I kinda want to trust the townreads there but I'm having issues really getting a read of my own) {Lady LambdaDelta} (lean town right now)
???
{Titus, PenguinPower}
{Bellaphant}
LEAN SCUM:
{Junkochan}
PLACING BUT LEAN SCUM:
{VP Baltar}
SCUM:
{GuiltyLion}
{Dannflor}
I still don't see why people think Junkochan is town, since every post looks like scum to me.
I have three players who I haven't developed any solid read on but lean scum on Bellaphant.
I have two players I was working on placing (tho I lean Shea town now).
My 'maybe town' are weak.
So like.
I don't have too few scum.
I honestly have too many who could be scum.
I need more strong townreads; I'm content with my scumreads.
That's doubly so given the King and Council mechanics, because having a townbloc that has no scum within fill all the positions would legit just win the town the game. I'm fine with my scum pool not containing as many confident scum as there are in the game, it is still a scum pool of an acceptable size. I DO need to get a better townbloc going tho.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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Enchant is transparently and self-evidently in his town meta. The vibes he is producing but with just the right mixture of subtle reads are promising for him being town.In post 1060, Andresvmb wrote:I’m asking them to react to my post and tell me why I should have Enchant Town. Why I shouldn’t trust VPB when I’ve just switched my vote to them. Where do they think their blind spots might be.
My blind spots are anyone south of locktown on my readslist. (Okay that said: probably should move Lukewarm up to locktown.) Which is literally sixteen of the players in the game, although that said, I maintain my confidence in my townreads being town, with the exception of Firebringer (because I can't read him worth shit).
So like (including Firebringer), that's 13 players I have as blindspots.
That said I AM quite confident on Dann being scum, so like.
Closer to 12.5.
(Yes that's a lot. There's a reason I said I don't expect to have good read accuracy this game, this playerlist doesn't have many names that I am intimately familiar with.)
As for why VP Baltar: lots of things.
Calling me a good player (he absolutely should not think I am one),
Then,In post 1003, mastina wrote:
Okay I can see why LLD thinks Baltar is scum. This post is v easy for scum to make and doesn't look like an actual real town spread, so much as an attempt to make an actual real town spread which is too clean/neat lacking in chaos to actually be true.In post 361, VP Baltar wrote:I'd probably townbin andante and andres at this point. Dann and datisi are maybe in town lean territory for me. Dwlee I could see as town who hasn't had a real chance to engage yet.
You and mastina are maybe giving me slightly bad vibes, but that could be my internal objections to anyone trying too hard to shape the day.
Off the top of my head, I think I would null pile everyone else.
The slimey push on Rhaenyra,In post 1032, mastina wrote:
You might be scum for this viewpoint tho.In post 574, VP Baltar wrote:I think Rhaenyra is probably scum trying to burn through their posts so they don't have to participate later today. Prove me wrong by not posting.
This looks like scum theater,In post 912, mastina wrote:
Their chats in the scum PT.In post 149, VP Baltar wrote:
What about dann specifically gives you good vibes?In post 146, JunkoChan wrote:right now I'm feeling Dann and Datisi are okay
LLD's read on him with me trusting that LLD is going to have a good read there regardless of her alignment but especially as town,
And in general: nothing VP Baltar has done has looked town to me, outside of a weak random read in the rvs. Since then (and even the rvs content in hindsight given the context of the rest of the game), it has all looked like various shades of scum.
I have seen Dannflor as town many many times in recent history, and this ain't Dann as town. It simply isn't. Not only his his approach the polar opposite of the signature town-Dannflor I expect, but also he has displayed the very scumtells he was trying to project onto Andante, being guilty of the crime he is pretending someone else committed. That is reason for ANYONE to be scum. He was right about the things he said were scumtells being scumtells, but HE was the one displaying them.In post 1059, Thestatusquo wrote:If anything the thing that I like the least about mastina's catchup is the projected confidence on the dann and the GL reads. Those are two very good and solid players who to my eyes don't have a lot of obvious tells in my experience playing with them, so the confidence in the reads is I think pretty unfounded.
His pushes have all been suspect, and his reads don't flow.
GuiltyLion has done nothing town and it is specificallybecausehe is a good solid player that that makes him scum (same for Dann tbh), and he is showing stances that feel like scum trying to influence a game where they have a disadvantageous gamestate rather than town genuinely sorting. His stances feel like they have an agenda, rather than being ones that are made by a town player sorting.
Both are guilty of the "I am determining my read on this player and making the reasons up" mentality, with their reads' justifications being a stretch that doesn't fit.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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As a matter of fact:In post 1494, GuiltyLion wrote:so you think all three (GL, VPB, Junko) of the biggest wagons for King so far are on scum?
Yes!
Since when are you using Appeal to Popularity (oh is actually called Appeal to Majority) as an argument, rather than pointing out its nature as a fallacy?In post 1494, GuiltyLion wrote:do you really think that's likely?
A town-GL here would know that just because the wagons have been large, does not mean the wagons are on town.
Scum have incentive to have scum as king, and because scum know who the scum are, they can influence who to vote for King disproportionately highly.
Tell me: how many of the votes on those three names,
Come from names I have in my scumpool?
It's not all of them, but it's enough of the votes that you can't deny scum being likely to have influenced those votes.
Let me ask the question then:
If being town is the most important requirement of all, why is the universal townread Andante not getting more votes?
Andante has stances that are not actually bad. She is a lot more stable than, say, Rhaenyra is, and yet, in spite of that, she is getting no traction. She is town, she has good ability to think rationally, she is not irrational, she can reason with others, be convinced to listen, she has good instincts. She is not competent enough as scum to have this play AS scum.
I can't say the same about notable scum players like VP Baltar who this very much can be the scum play of.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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Yes, while Enchant is probably town, he's not someone to be King.In post 1063, Thestatusquo wrote:I think they shouldn't have any authority anyway as either alignment because *gestures vaguely at enchants whole gimmick*
This does not look like a real thought.In post 1072, VP Baltar wrote:
Enchant's play doesn't seem that townie actually. It's not super engaged in poking people enchant finds scummy in a real way, which they do in my experience.In post 1062, Thestatusquo wrote:Enchant's play this game pretty much exactly matches enchants play in pictures which just finished where enchant was town, so I'm happy enough leaving them alone for now personally.
I can think of one reason why maybe that's the case, but also enchant is better than this as town.
I'm pretty sure a town-VP actually tries to see this thought through, with more pushing at Shea in particular. While he can't vote Shea for elimination, it would still be possible to poke and prod at Shea to get him to actually give more nuanced thoughts--leaving just this comment with no follow-through is scum appearing to be town without actually doing something town. The whole exchange lacks purpose, but is no mere idle thought.In post 1073, VP Baltar wrote:
Doesn't seem like it "bothers you a lot" then.In post 1071, Thestatusquo wrote:Yeah I'm still voting him. I still town read him, I just didnt like that post.
I get that as town not everything you do needs to have followthrough. But VP Baltardoesfollow through, in the extended exchange with Shea, yet in spite of that, this is explicitly doing nothing. It is not sorting Shea. It is not trying to get elaboration. It is just...there, for the sake of being there.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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For the record, I think this is Charloux as town, here.In post 1107, Charloux wrote:If there are any questions about specific posts that need commenting on feel free to ask.
The player most likely to be town--like Andante the person you just said is town.In post 1109, PenguinPower wrote:Firebringer and Andante can be town. Tell me who to vote for king.
Btw,In post 1111, Rhaenyra wrote:I am starting with a clean board, and will vote anyone who'll make me their Hand.Rhaenyra:
I do not want to be King; there's too many players here who I don't have the confidence to believe my read on them is right--but Iwant Andante to be king, can you help me elect her?DO
I realize the way that looks is me saying "PP is scum for being V/LA" since I didn't actually explain the read.In post 1126, PenguinPower wrote:I’m gonna withhold comment on mastina assigning alignment to my v/la so I don’t lose it
But I assure you, it's not. The act itself I know to have been true. You would never fake it, and the idea of accusing someone of that would be fucking disgusting rl-human-trash. (Nobody fakes being V/LA. So if they say they are, they are. Doubting that is rl-scum levels of douchebagery.)
The read isn't scum because of V/LA, the read is potentially scum because of the way the V/LA was done. It's not the act which is alignment-indicative, it is the handling of it. Having rl events happen is, explicitly, nai. How you express those rl events having happened very much can be. (For instance, as town trying to do the best you can in spite of it; as scum just doing nothing because it's not worth focusing on a scumgame while having rl shit going on.)
That said, I'm back to thinking you're town because of the trajectory involved between deciding not to read and then reading anyway. As scum I'd expect for you to have just kept to that, but the on-the-whim decision to actually read is probably town.
Funnily enough, that's my thought on 1114!In post 1114, VP Baltar wrote:This post is...not great.
This is a valid point and is why GL is scum and Lukewarm is town.In post 1147, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:
Why is Luke scum for having a townread based on his experiences with me but you aren't for describing my quality of play and aiming to prevent anyone from being able to read me as town?In post 1138, GuiltyLion wrote:I think if Luke is town here, he's just entirely not on the same wavelength with me at all. seems very focused on the literal reads themselves and not at all grokking that what I have issues with is all of the logic / reasoning he is expressing as to how he arrived at those reads.
Luke, I truly barely care at all what the actual strength of your actual LLD read is. What I care about is that everything you said in 657 is just not compelling or believable reasons to townread LLD,especiallya player of her caliber, like all of what you said could easily be faked or is based on her not playing in a specific way you would expect her to as scum. and I believe someone who is uninformed and trying to earnestly solve wouldn't arrive at these reasons to call her town. It gives me a strong vibe of youwantedto express a townread on LLD, so you sat down and came up with things that you thinkshouldindicate that she's town - rather than looking at what she's actually done and figuring out how you feel about it. That's what I mean when I say your posts feel motivated or backwards-derived, all your logic gives me a vibe that it started with the conclusion and then finds arguments you can use to support that conclusion
Like at what point does the paranoia about being able to see me as town become an eventful act to prevent me from taking a foothold in this game, as a scum action?
You and Luke are on two sides of the same coin, doing 2 different things with your concern and understanding of me but at least in my mind Luke is nailed down with a reasoning that checked out from our prior experience from my PoV. You are just waving in a general area and not attempting to read me at all, only by proxy of discrediting Luke have you given any alignment on me.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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In a normal game (lowercase n, not capital), would you find the idea of having three wagons to eliminate bouncing between them and all being town,In post 1500, GuiltyLion wrote:I'm not saying the wagons are on town because they're large, I'm saying a world/gamestate view where we've just bounced between three scum candidates for king seems really unlikely to me on its face.
In any way unlikely?
Which is to say.
If we were voting to execute a player, would the three most dominant wagons all being town on D1 in any way, shape, or form surprise you?
'Cause the answer to that is quite self-evidently, no. It is no more likely nor less likely than having scum in the wagons. All three would have town behind them, and all three are likely to have scum backing them. This is especially true because the scum as the informed minority know who the scum are, and thus, can exert pressure onto the town to avoid having scum be a dominant wagon. There is a reason a lot of VCA involving confirmed multiple wagons on town, is to look for the scum on each wagon.
Because ironically, scum being divided between three wagons on town rather than all piled up onto one specific town wagon,
Means that there is more pressure for there to be wagons on town. With scum dividing the town up, but still making wagons encouraging town fighting the town, the town is going to have less unity with their only coherence being different town players.
Now invert that mechanic, with us inverting our preferences.
Having three wagons to empower the player bouncing between them all being scum,
Is in no way shape or form unlikely.
All three wagons would have town behind them, but also have scum backing them. The scum as the informed minority know who the scum are, and thus, can exert pressure onto the town to avoid having town be a dominant wagon. Scum being divided between three wagons on scum rather than piled up on one specific wagon,
Means that there is more pressure for the wagons on scum to go through. With scum dividing the town up, but still making wagons encouraging scum v scum nominations, the town is going to have less unity with their only coherence being different scum players.
Now, does that mean it happened?
Well, no, obviously not!
But I'm not arguing "we have three wagons, scum are the informed minority, and therefore they can influence the game to make sure that three scum are the top wagons".
My argument is far more simply,
I have scumreads on them all,
And arguing that there cannot be three scum being voted is a fallacy.
(Gotta take a break to cuddle with a kitteh.)-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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The town is voting for a player to be King, largely based off of how town the player in question is.In post 1500, GuiltyLion wrote:and second because scum has no reason to play that way even if you think all three of these wagons are fundamentally scum driven.
It feels like overall your reads are foundationally based on a premise that anyone trying/succeeding to look town is scummy for that reason
The King is the most important decision in the game, as it sets the entirety of the game to follow.
The King literally gets to dictatewhich players in the game are power roles--don't fucking pretend that's not a huge thing.
The King gets to dictate the first player to die--which can set the tone of the entire rest of the game.
The King basically gets to set the flow for the entire rest of the game. Don't pretend this isn't true, everyone has pretty much argued this exact point in making their King choices from the getgo. A bad King sets a bad flow of the game, and a scum King sets ascum flowto the game.
That sounds like incentive to make a scum King to me!
And, yes, that gives scum extra incentive to try and look town.
Trying to look town, yet not actually being town, has always been one of the biggest scumtells in existence. (The buzzword these days is LAMIST tho I'm not particularly fond of that term.)
But in this game specifically,there is extra reason for that tell to apply.
Because while in a normal game the reward for looking town is simply to avoid being eliminated,
In this game, the reward for looking town isto become the most important part of the game, setting who gets what power roles and even if failing to become King, having a high chance of becoming one of the power roles and thus denying town that particular role.
And by the way: saying that I am arguing "anyone trying/succeeding to look town is suspect" is disingenous as fuck.
Players who are naturally being town, are town.
It is specificallytrying to force towninessthat is scum--and you, Dannflor, and VP Baltar are all guilty of doing exactly that.
There are other players whomightbe guilty of that sin. (LLD for instance could be.)
But you three are the only ones DEFINITELY guilty of it.
My scumreads are not all dependent on "trying to look town without being town"--JunkoChan most definitely hasn't tried to look town and yet is one of my scumreads.
My scumreads are not "people who look town are scum"--I have numerous townreads this game and, again, JunkoChan is a scumread in spite of not looking town.
My scumreads on you, Dannflor, and VP Baltar are because you are all being pro-scum while doing things that try to look town without actually being town.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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And that doesn't change my argument at all.In post 1510, GuiltyLion wrote:
... the difference here is that there are 16 town versus only 5 scumsIn post 1509, mastina wrote:If we were voting to execute a player, would the three most dominant wagons all being town on D1 in any way, shape, or form surprise you?
Another way of thinking about this:In post 1509, mastina wrote:It is no more likely nor less likely than having scum in the wagons. All three would have town behind them, and all three are likely to have scum backing them. This is especially true because the scum as the informed minority know who the scum are, and thus, can exert pressure onto the town.
Having three wagons to empower the player bouncing between them all being scum, Is in no way shape or form unlikely. Scum being divided between three wagons on scum rather than piled up on one specific wagon, Means that there is more pressure for the wagons on scum to go through. With scum dividing the town up, but still making wagons encouraging scum v scum nominations, the town is going to have less unity with their only coherence being different scum players.
Now, does that mean it happened? Well, no, obviously not! But I'm not arguing "we have three wagons, scum are the informed minority, and therefore they can influence the game to make sure that three scum are the top wagons".
My argument is far more simply, I have scumreads on them all, And arguing that there cannot be three scum being voted is a fallacy.
There is a difference between statistical numbers in theory,
And statistical numbers in practice.
In theory, a town miller is negative utility for a town, giving a cop a false guilty.
In practice, millers just claim D1.
In theory, the mathematical odds mean that scum are less likely to be voted the majority by sheer raw statistical chance.
But in practice, the scum being the informed minority means that they canbend the stats. Then can artificially shift the curve. They can manipulate the odds in their favor. By sheer raw math, the scum might have not as much influence, but by virtue of their information, that counterbalances the statistical disadvantage of numbers. The scum's information hasalwaysbeen more of an advantage than the scum's smaller size. Because scum know who the scum are and who the town are, scum get to control how they influence the game.
Scum get to control the direction they try to push the town in.
Scum get to set the flow of things, or at least attempt to.
The game is not a game of pure math.
The game is a game of human psychology.
Which is where actualrealpossibilities versus probabilities come in.
Mathematically speaking from a pure statistical mathematical perspective that is just theory, yes it is more probable for town to be voted up in this game, and less possible for the wagons to all be on scum.
But from the perspective ofpractice, of reality, the scum areactively trying to avert the statistical outcome. If scum fail to, they literally lose the game. It's their fucking job to make sure that town aren't elected into every position of power.
So the REAL probability versus possibility is quite simply:
Which is more likely?
That the scum didn't influence the town at all, with the town having influenced the votes on town with all candidates as town...
...Or that the scum did influence the town, with the choices having at least some being pro-scum?
The latter is far more likely than the former.
And my reads support that.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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It's not objectively unlikely.In post 1513, GuiltyLion wrote:just feels tremendously fake to me, because objectively it justisunlikely, and I feel like mastinahas tounderstand that?
It is from astatisticalviewpoint, atheoreticalviewpoint, unlikely.
The two should NOT be confused.
Yes, by sheer raw statistical math, it is unlikely for three scum to be voted up.
Butthe game is not sheer raw statistical math.
And the scum's wincon this gameactively incentivizes them avoiding the statistically likely outcome.
In this game, there's a 16:5 odds of town being elected King, and each position has a 15:5 odd of going to town.
Statistically speaking, that gives from a theory perspective a 16/21 odds of getting a town King, and a 15/20 odds of one town power role, and after that a 14/19 odds of a second town power role, and a 13/18 odds of a third town power role, and a 12/17 odds of a fourth town power role, and a 11/16 odds of a fifth town power role, and a 11/16 odds of a sixth town power role.
Put together, that's 81/111 chance: 73% chance of all town King+PRs.
From a statistical viewpoint, just in theory, the town has a 73% chance of that many town.
But the game isn't based on statistical theoretics.
It's a core fundamental of the NRG to keep in mind the difference between raw theory and actual practice. (Miller to a Cop as the easiest go-to example of this.)
And byactual practice, scum by being their informed minority areusing their information to change the odds. They are using their status of being the informed minority to shift the chances.Scum don't want the statistically most likely outcome in theory to happen.
Ergo, playingfrom actual practice, in the reality of the game:
Scum are going to try and look more town than normal,
And to also prevent town from looking as town as they are.
Scum want to look more town, and to make town look less credible.
And by actual PRACTICE, the scum doing that isn't a possibility--it's a probability.
Trying to argue that there isn't a difference between statistical theory, and pragmatic reality, is scummy as fuck and if GuiltyLion were actually town he would know about this divide.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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I'm still fucking catching up and don't fucking pretend that's not relevant--no fucking shit I don't know the specifics, I haven't read them yet!In post 1513, GuiltyLion wrote:Also because Mastina seems a bit reticent to go into specifics of which scum are voting who and how (and why)
But I have individual scumreads on all of {Dannflor, GuiltyLion, VP Baltar, JunkoChan} and I have a pretty damn good theory on what scum want to be doing this game (getting as much control early-on as possible), so when I see players acting in the way I know scum are likely to act, with those players also looking town by multiple metrics: then they are scum.
And all of this is still not countering my point!
You're trying to make this into something far more than it actually is. YOU are the one trying to make it a big deal. YOU are the one trying to argue that my stance means more than it does. YOU are the one trying to focus on the statistical odds of this, from a mathematical theoretical perspective that ignores the human aspect of the game and ignores actual practice. YOU are the one trying to focus on a specific narrative.In post 1509, mastina wrote:My argument is far more simply,
.I have scumreads on them all,
And arguing that there cannot be three scum being voted is a fallacy
And that is scum.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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Are you going to try and argue that the scum's only way of influencing the votes is with their own votes?In post 1513, GuiltyLion wrote:only Junko would be scum on her wagon here, plus potentially whoever is our 5th member (after Dann, VPB, Junko, and GL). How would our team intentionally win over and manipulate all the other townies on this wagon when this wagon was specifically a reaction to people not liking VPB and the people pushing for him?
'Cause I don't fucking think I need to explain why that is fallacious as fuck.
Scum have more tools than just their vote to influence the game.
Which MY argument accounts for.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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By posting what you have posted.In post 1520, GuiltyLion wrote:@Mastina, ok, even if I grant you that we can just throw out math entirely (which we can't, but whatever), you're still completely missing the how and why. How, specifically, did we drive wagons on each of GL, VPB, Junko?
That's pretty fucking self-evident.
If you want details then maybe I can show them by catching up.
Your posts are more than just votes.
And don't fucking pretend that you having discredited town players has no influence on the vote--everyone thinks Andante is town, yet nobody is voting her outside of me pretty much.
And that is largely due to the narrative of "Andante is a wildcard".
Which players are pushing that narrative?
That's right!
You are!-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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Not by that wording, but basically?In post 1520, GuiltyLion wrote:all these talented townies in Datisi, TSQ, LLD, Andres just twiddling their thumbs and getting hoodwinked by the masterful deception powers of Dann and GL as we ensure JunkoChan gets wagoned by a bunch of low volume and/or meme posters without even ever arguing for it?
Yes!
I believe that the town lacks cohesion. All of those players have individually given their suspicion on the likes of {GL, Dann, VP Baltar, Junko}.
Individually, pretty much none of them think all four of those names are town.
Individually, pretty much all of them think that grouping has a scum.
And there are many players who are underperforming this game in particular. Maybe the posting restriction is playing part, rl stuff can also play a part, personal struggles in getting this specific playerlist more locked down can also play a part, and overall game activity can play a part, with them wanting more players to be active so that they can get a better view of everyone.
As they are town, as they are an individual, the only way for them to get backing is to convince another individual whose alignment they do not know, to go along with them. Which they are usually pretty good at, but not flawlessly so.
The town havearguedfor different names to be elected.
But they don't have the same influence scum have.
This is again theoretically true by statistics but ignores the base fundamental powers of town versus scum.In post 1520, GuiltyLion wrote:you completely ignore the fact that town is also trying to influence the outcome, and they far outnumber the scum team. Like town has three times the voting power
Town players do not know which other players are town.
Scum players do.
Each town player is a bloc of one. One, and only one. Because the only player whose alignment they know is their own, they have incredibly limited scope in individual power. They need to convince the players whose alignment they don't even know, to follow them in voting on a player whose alignment they don't know, and who the people they're trying to convince don't know the alignment of, when those players also don't know the alignment of the person making the argument. That's FIVE levels of unknown.
The unknown of the player being voted for by the player campaigning.
The unknown of the alignment the player doing the campaigning has.
The unknown of the alignment of the player being asked to vote.
And the interaction between those three.
Meanwhile, scum knowexactlywhat the alignment of every player in that equation is. And, additionally, instead of being a bloc of one, they are a bloc of five. They know precisely which players are making which campaigns for which alignments, and have five times the collective weight of any individual town player.
You're not so fucking stupid as to not know this, GL.
Arguing that the uninformed majority just by virtue of being the majority,
Has more influence inherently off of that numeric superiority,
Is fallacious as fuck because it discards the scum's advantage of being theinformed.
Each individual town player is an individual;
Each individual scum player isnot an individual.
If five scum were truly synchronized together, then they effectively have 5 * 4 = 20 voices. (That is, at the highest possible peak performance of sucm, where each scum member was actively contributing to each scum member to make all 5 be at top form and making the best possible posting, then each scum would be more than the sum of their parts and be boosted by their teammates. Obviously, in reality, this is lower, but at their highest theoretical value, that's what they get.)
Whereas town are 16 * 1.
The scum have a far, FAR greater ability to influence the game by leveraging their information to influence the viewpoints of other players, and networking their own posts in the scum PT to provide constant feedback to signal boost their strength.
Not all players are created equal--do you think a town-Not_Mafia provides the same value to town voices as a town-Ellibereth does? Obviously not.
That's obviously true about scum players as well, but scum players have something town players do not. A town-Not_Mafia will always be set in value. He cannot become stronger, because he is alone.
A scum player can become more, because they arenot alone.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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My my and who would be making those kinds of arguments now, ehh???In post 1524, Enchant wrote:I think "Person is town but can't be king" more liekely comes from scum who don't want town king, but can't really argue person to be scum, so they appeal to "Not competency".
Could it be the likes of, ohhhh, sayyy:
'Cause it sure seems that way to me!In post 1501, GuiltyLion wrote:I think nobody's pushing for Andante because she's so unpredictable. Assuming she's town, neither town/scum want her as king because we have no idea wtf she's going to do from one post to the next.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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You are by arguing that town majority = scum have less influence than town.In post 1526, GuiltyLion wrote:
I'm not arguing this at all, this is words you're putting into my mouthIn post 1521, mastina wrote:Trying to argue that there isn't a difference between statistical theory, and pragmatic reality,
When that's not reflective of reality--that's reflective of theoretical truth via raw statistics, but it is NOT reflective of reality when given the lens of scum's most basic power of information, paired with their oft-overlooked secondary power ofcommunication.
There was a time when daytalk was considered so strong for a scum factionit was valued as strongly as having an extra scum member.
That three scum with daytalk was effectively four scum without daytalk.
The ability for theinformedto have opencommunicationallows them to make a more collective push. They have a stronger collective power than any single town player to influence the game.
Because each town player is an individual, each town player lacks that collective strength.
And because each scum player is part of a team, each scum player has the collective strength of that team to back them.
Does that mean that the scum actually did?
Not necessarily.
But that circles me back to what I have consistently been saying!
YOU are the one trying to argue that the scumreads I have are invalid by them all being majority wagons.In post 1509, mastina wrote:My argument is far more simply,
I have scumreads on them all,
And arguing that there cannot be three scum being voted is a fallacy.
Meanwhile, *I* am saying I think they are scum simply by virtue of having formed reads on them!-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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If the reason for throwing doubt on my scumreads is a fallacy of "they are the main votes for being King, do you think that the main three votes for being King are all scum?", then yes, that is unreasonable, by virtue of being a fallacy.In post 1531, Thestatusquo wrote:Mastina, GL isn't arguing that you can't scum read 3 people who have been wagoned (I think). I believe the cliff notes is that given the nature of the how voting for king works in this game it should give you pause and maybe cause you to rethink your confidence on those scum reads, especially as a grouping.
Does that seem unreasonable to you? It doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
My scumreads are based off of play--throwing doubt on the scumreads by using a fallacy based off of statistical theoretical odds which ignores pragmatic application in the game thread and has no influence from the way the game has played out,
Is in fact unreasonable to me.
If GL wants to argue my scumreads are unlikely from a play-based perspective he can be my guest!
But he isn't.
And that's the fucking issue.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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Enchant is town. <3In post 1177, Enchant wrote:Sorry, forgot that you(VP Baltar) are mafia and talked with you again, but i called out your hypocrisy.
It will not happen next time.
For the record, the main reason I am voting Andante instead of Andres is because Andres said he didn't want to be King.In post 1157, JunkoChan wrote:I kind of tr Andres but I don't want him as king, he can be council or something
If he was open to the idea, fuck yes I'd vote him because he is just as town as Andante is.
But, Andante wants the King and Andres doesn't and with both equally as town, Andante is the better vote.
(Personally I believe both would do about as well in the King position, but Andres would receive less resistance. It's just that because Andres doesn't want the job, voting him as King would be a bad idea.)
Alright, so this post actually makes me think Junko not scum with VP Baltar.In post 1165, JunkoChan wrote:
actually because of interactions with you, I don't want you near the PR'sIn post 1164, VP Baltar wrote:
Why's that?In post 1158, JunkoChan wrote:Like i said to Guiltylion I don't sr Andres, just don't feel like having him as king
I feel you your intent as pockety
Prior interactions were easily enough scum theater, but this one doesn't feel like it has that deliberate intent.
In post 1178, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:And... Yes. First king being town is still the most important thing in this game IMO.Lady Lambdadelta:If the first king being town is the MOST important thing,
What do you think about the players arguing against electing a universally-townread player in favor of less-townread players?
Players who are voting for players thatcouldbe town, but are not nearly as universally so?
Players who are insisting on not voting for players guaranteed to be town?-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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Sure is, from a mathematical perspective reliant entirely on theory.In post 1541, GuiltyLion wrote:to me it feels obvious and indisputable.
Sure isn't, based on actual practice accounting for the scum tools in the game versus the town's restrictions/limitations based on the weaknesses of the town that act as force dividers and the strengths of the scum that act as force multipliers.
Granted, I don't think JunkoChan is scum with VP Baltar now, anyway, so like. That means there was at least one town in there anyway. But that was a conclusion I made based off of play--not a conclusion based off of a fallacy.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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I agree with all of this and am locktowning Lukewarm for it.In post 1182, Lukewarm wrote:tbh, most of this feels like GL is arguing "Because Luke is not explaining why scum!LLD would NEVER do these things, it is BAD and FAKE that luke would think that LLD is more likely to be town this game"
Which is dumb, because I don't think that there is very much that scum!LLD would NEVER do. That is not how I sort anyone, because scum can do literally anything.
*Could* scum!LLD out the numbers that outlined scum being closer to winning then anyone seemed aware of? Yes.
*Could* scum!LLD suggest the popcorn plan, which takes agency away from her determining the king? Yes.
*Could* scum!LLD stick to her "I don't explain town reads" thing, even when she would want to be in a position to sway people? Yes.
I was making the argument that scum!LLd seemed Less Likely to do each of these things, and therefore her having done all of these things left me to feel like she is more likely to be town.
I have also found that people who make arguments adjacent to "unless you are arguing that someone would/could never do it as scum, you cannot call them a townread" are scum
His explanation for the LLD read is also my reason for half of my townreads, loosely LLD among them.
His theory that scum are more likely to make the argument "unless you are arguing that someone would/could never do it as scum, you cannot call them a townread", is also valid in my experience, and affirms that, yes, GuiltyLion is in fact scum.
Tbh I'm beginning to be more certain of my GuiltyLion scumread than I am of the Dannflor one, but that's probably due to a lack of Dannflor posting. (I should note that the large lack of Dannflor posting is in fact suspect.)-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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JunkoChan, obviously?In post 1544, GuiltyLion wrote:which of them do you think is more likely to be town?
JunkoChan individually looks to me like scum, but:
1: Has many players defending her as town, which makes me question my read there (this is not hypocritical, I should note, as there's a difference between being influenced by the perspective of others, and arguing that the perspective of others means that something must be true. The former is a healthy thing, the latter is a fallacy);
2: Does not fit most of the established play pattern the rest of my scumreads has;
3: Has my scumread be much much weaker for much much weaker reasoning;
4: Was mostly me not seeing why they would be town.
Which, yaknow. Is also something obvious from a play-based perspective, namely that I have been quite consistent about my stances on both of them.
Do I think JunkoChan is town from this?
No, not necessarily--but it was the first thing which made me see JunkoChan aspossibleto be town, by virtue of not being scum with VP Baltar. I would be immediately suspect of her again if VP Baltar wasn't scum since it doesn't look like a town post, it looks like a "not scum with VP Baltar" post, and I'm pretty damn sure VP Baltar is scum, so...
Wait this is fucking huge. I want you to think about that thought for a second and think about it from a different angle--not Firebringer knowing the roles in advance, but rather, what if someone let slip that the scum knew about them in advance?In post 1187, Charloux wrote:
Mod revealed the role in post 675 AFAIK, and fire was deliberate to be either a warden of the south or master of coin since the beginning.In post 1114, VP Baltar wrote:Master of coin is actually a very powerful position because it dictates if the other positions can act or not. If you can't see the scum benefit of that, well..
I see it as a hyped town and not at all scum indicative.It can be scum indicative if scum knew all the roles beforehand though.
That is to say:
VP Baltar scumslipped here.
Firebringer was advocating for the position of coinmaster from the getgo--before the roles were known to the town.
VP Baltar argued that Firebringer did this as a scum action, by wanting the power of the coinmaster role for scum.
But the town didn't know the coinmaster power from the getgo.
If the scum did, then scum are more likely to argue a player wanted the position with a scum agenda, because scum have access to information the town does not have, and it affects their perspective on things.
So VP Baltar arguing that Firebringer wanted the position of coinmaster,
Is him scumslipping that scum knew about the power of coinmaster in advance.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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Well, the last year has been just these games, so for completed town games, you've got:In post 1547, Thestatusquo wrote:does anyone have a mastina town game I can read thats fairly recent? It's been a while.
2/3rds of Triplicate*,
UPick a Normal,
Ginngie's UPick,
(These three are both the oldest and minis, so less relevant)
(*third was SK so I was basically town across the board but not pure town)
Manatee's Pokemon Large,
TFT UPick (altho I died early there and was using a gimmick for fun),
And Datisi's Cafe.
Tbh only the Datisi's Cafe game is relevant to me as I am now because the last two months have had an incredibly notable rl shift in me, due to rl stressors.
And, notably, the largest stressor--a hell week of rl shit--happened after all of that and has no completed games to show it, in spite of that one single hell week having left a huge mark on me now. (That single hell week made me want to stop playing as mastina. Just outright give up. But I can't point to any completed games because that was too recent an event, having happened during the time Datisi's Cafe had just ended. Literally the day after Datisi's Cafe ended, if I recall correctly. Which you can kinda sorta maybe see from my lack of posting in Datisi's Cafe.)
I can maybe point you to older towngames where I had similar things tho. (Finding the first post-Doubles-game I was able to play due to my game ban would probably be a good one, but I'd need to track down what that was. And, yes, that's apt; my rl shit stressors are bad enough that this is a pre-Doubles to post-Doubles shift in play.)-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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Yes, but he is arguing that Firebringer was scum for pushing for master of coin, ignoring how master of coin was revealed IN post 675, not post 0.In post 1550, Thestatusquo wrote:What? Master of coin was revealed in post 675. VP made that post a full 500 posts after that?
That's why it's a scumslip.
Town would know that it was revealed in post 675, and thus, that Firebringer pushing for it before then was not a scumslip.
Scum, if they have access to that information, wouldn't think about the 675 reveal, they'd be more likely to just think about it having been there from the getgo because they had that info from the getgo. And revealed that perspective slip by pushing the idea Firebringer pushed for master of coin from the getgo.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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Oh hey would you look at that!In post 1198, VP Baltar wrote:Scenario 2: My reads are fucked up and scum think I would take town down a bad path
This scenario means we might benefit more from Mastina and LLD having some power.Maybe Junko, but ugh I am unlikely to want that. I'm more inclined to trust mastina/LLD in some type of coalition govt.
Proof of concept for me finding scum advocating for Junko to be King, in spite of having not voted there!
GuiltyLion asked the fallacious-as-fuck "how could scum influence this when by your own reads they aren't voting there?", well guess what?In post 1468, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:Firebringer, ProfessorDrapion, Junkochan, Rhaenyra, Enchant, PenguinPower, UnowenJunkochan [7]:
I found the fucking start of the push for Junko to be King, and it came from someone not voting Junko!
Almost as if votes don't tell the whole story of what kinds of influence scum can have.
Almost like so much as a single sentence from scum can set momentum towards an outcome they want!
Y'know.
The thing I was arguing and which GuiltyLion tried to say was wrong.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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(It was the experience you had with me which was terrible, that is why I amIn post 1210, Charloux wrote:I have limited history with her, and it was terrible. Based on that her posts right now weird me out.not being thatin THIS game. It wasn't terrible just for you. I've no fucking desire to ever be that again. I was miserable, and I don't want to be miserable in literally every game I play. I needed to change, so...I did. Or, well, am trying to. Old habits die hard and the GuiltyLion exchange is risking sucking me back in.)
Yo Luke, how freaked out are you that I actually think that you are both,In post 1201, Lukewarm wrote:There is no town motivation for this post.
-Town,
-And accurate on your reads?
(Because I actually think you are.)
Btw 1216 is pretty clearly scum trying to look town by taking stances that are surface-level pro-town but is not actually town. It's the post of a skilled scum player making efforts to be town, but not being actual town.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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And my point is that is still a scumslip, because the knowledge of what master of coin did was not in the game thread at the beginning of the game.In post 1564, VP Baltar wrote:Char said scum wouldn't lock themselves into a spot like master of coin. I said, well master of coin can control the other power roles, so definitely seems to have some scum benefit.
In fact,at the beginning of the game, we didn't know there was a master of coin position.
Yet alone, that a master of coin would be a power role.
Yet alone, what that power role was.
Firebringer has been advocating for it since the very beginning--before we knew it was in the game, before we knew it was a power role, and before we knew the details of the power role.
You arguing that Firebringer did that as scum,
Is itself a scumslip because Firebringer wouldn't know as town those details;
You thinking that a scum player would,
Is itself a scumslip by being a perspective slip of what scum would know.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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Again, five scum in the game, working as a team--not one.In post 1565, JunkoChan wrote:so you are telling me that my antagonic wagon was created by the guy who directly benefits from me not even having a wagon?
A scum player can push something that doesn't benefitthem specifically, if they believe it will benefittheir team.as a whole
VP planting the idea of a Junko wagon is almost certainly him having done just that.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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Proof:In post 1569, mastina wrote:at the beginning of the game, we didn't know there was a master of coin position.
Search for 'master' on the first page of the game.In post 22, Firebringer wrote:Also willing to vote anyone who names me the warden of south and master of coin
This is the only result.
The position master of coin wasn't mentioned by Pooky until 675.
That was the post explaining it, but search Pooky's iso. 675 was the first.
Whereas Firebringer said it from the very first page of the game.
So VP Baltar arguing that Firebringer wanted the master of coin position as scum,
Is a scumslip.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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And I'm saying thatIn post 1572, Firebringer wrote:VPB has already said in the post ur quoting that he wasn't saying I knew what PR existed. Or that even scum knew what PR/positions existed.He was saying scum would want a position on council periodso the townread on me for wanting master of coin doesn't make sense because scum would want the position whether they knew what it does or not.
This has been spelled out.town didn't know there WAS a master of coin position at all.
You weren't arguing to be on the council.
You were arguing to be master of coin.
Firebringer wasn't arguing to be on the council as the master of coin position; Firebringer was arguing to be master of coin.
Becausetown didn't know "master of coin" was an actual council position on 675, that means thatVP Baltar thinking Firebringer's advocating could be scum wanting to be on the council, is a perspective slip.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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Theory confirmed; the lack of renewed strength in Dann being confscum here is due to him having not posted, since when he does, it is obvious as fuck.
Tone-wise he's just flat as fuck, and perspective-wise, he's just not engaging in a way that is bridging the gaps the way a town-Dann does.
Dannflor is the definition of "town glue". He's probably the one player onsite most apt for that. Of all players onsite, he is the one I MOST think of as being a town glue when he is town.
He is not the glue this game, therefore, he is not town this game.
(It's because they're scumbuddies.)In post 1243, UNOwen wrote:
This is alarmingly unconvincing.In post 1235, GuiltyLion wrote: everything he's done so far in this game seems centered around promoting a cohesive town core - and so far I've generally liked his picks/selections for that towncore. He's been transparent and exhaustive with his thought process while doing so and none of it at all has triggered any yellow/red flags for me at any step of the way. He's genuinely engaging with multiple people and encouraging new avenues of discussion while ignoring unproductive ones. None of his expressions of suspicion/scumreads have felt slimy to me at all. in a sea of noise, he's giving me the strongest vibes of someone authentically trying to steer things in a pro-town direction - other than Andres as well who I would also be fine with voting if he had a comparable wagon.
the only point I can recall that people have raised against him is possible posturing/pocketing with talking about council picks and I find that pretty uncharitable. talking about council picks is a useful thing to do, and his justification for it feels pure to me.-
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mastina She/HerFalse ProphetShe/Her
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Yes, you're proving my point.In post 1575, PenguinPower wrote:In post 1574, mastina wrote:Because town didn't know "master of coin" was an actual council position on 675, that means that VP Baltar thinking Firebringer's advocating could be scum wanting to be on the council, is a perspective slip.In post 675, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:The master of coin is the chief financial adviser of the king and is a member of the small council in King's Landing.
My point is this:
Pooky's first mention of Master of Coin being in the game was [post]675;;there isinformation from Pooky before that saying the position is in the gameNO
Firebringer was desiring to be Master of Coin from page one;;Firebringer had no way of knowing "master of coin" was a real position at the time
Firebringer could not have known that Master of Coin was an actual council position and thusbecause town didn't know what the council positions were;Firebringer could not have been advocating for a council position
The town had NO information about council positions until Pooky gave it;;For all the town knew, the council positions could have been nameless and flavorless
VP Baltar argued that Firebringer was arguing for Master of Coin to argue for a council position, but per the above (the town did not know the council positions had names, and that master of coin was one of the named positions),;Firebringer wouldn't have known
VP Baltar arguing that Firebringer was doing something that Firebringer literally couldn't have done, reveals that.VP Baltar knew details about the roles and assumed it was a given that scum knew those things
And that last part is the important part:
VP Baltar assumed that scum having information was a given, when there is nothing to suggest that, ergo, VP Baltar assuming it as a given is.a perspective slip