Designer Mafia 2007 - Game Over, Final Scene Posted!
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mneme emneme mneme mninie mno
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Hey, all.
Nocmen, what's up with the post restriction/no post restriction thing? (fwiw, I -hate- people using morse to get around post restrictions. What's the point of having a role with limited communication if in practice, it just has annoying communication?)
Agreed that revealing submitted roles is pointless (there may be roles we didn't submit, or more likely, some we did may be alignment-switched), mostly helps scum, and doesn't make the game much more fun, either.Did I say too much?-
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mneme emneme mneme mninie mno
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I've taken on voluntary post restrictions for thematic reasons (like rhyming every post).Twomz wrote:
Then I doubt you have ever been a protown player who is suddenly incapable of communicating in any way.mneme wrote:fwiw, I -hate- people using morse to get around post restrictions. What's the point of having a role with limited communication if in practice, it just has annoying communication?)
I've also had at least one post restriction, and played in at least one games where post limits came with special powers.
I've never had one of the -really- nasty post restrictions (though I've played two fully mute mafia games in person, and would love to play more; it was wonderful), but I've played in several games with same -- Asterix, among others that are no longer on my watchlist. (also, games with silencers and quasi-silencers, like the Final Fantasy mini).
But that's not the point; the point is that typically, post restrictions are intended to balance powerful roles, and while figuring out a yes/no protocol is fine (it is -limited- bandwidth, not -no- bandwidth), the dodge of using a character encoding is Just Dumb.
And honestly, frustrating post restrictions aren't a limitation on playing the game entirely; instead, they're a useful spice, letting you be more creative. And being more creative doesn't mean hacking the restriction so it isn't there at all; it means playing the game well -within- the restriction.Did I say too much?-
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I'll bite -- I want to see how this works.Thyroidectomy wrote:Also, as I almost forgot, I am selling tickets for a local Renaissance fair! Please quote this if you want to buy a ticket! I assure you I can help you if you help me! If we all go the fair, we can all enjoy the Renaissance!!!!!!Did I say too much?-
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As above, strenuously requesting explanations for votes that were not initially accompanied by explainations.Nocmen wrote:
Explain where I was witch hunting and role fishing.mneme wrote:unvote(for witch hunting and role fishing, not to mention perpetuating the myth of the random stage).
vote: Nocmen
No, not giving explanations is notper sescummy.
Votes without explainations can be:
[li]
[*] Lazy random votes.
[*] non-random votes where the voter doesn't feel a need to explain.
[*] Bandwagon votes.
[*] Scum votes (really, those are just bandwagon votes, mostly, or role-motivated votes)
[*] Role-motivated votes
[/li]
While you want to look at people's pattern of behavior, pushing too hard for explanations of votes clarifies the first four explainations vs the 5th one, and therefore verges on fishing.
Moreover, this is a game of feint, bluff, and direct attack, not one of "debate team 101". Throwing up bandwagons on people just because they refuse to explain votes regardless of whether it's reasonable that the votes -would- be explainable is witch hunting. More particularly, I don't think several of your attacks were reasonable and the pattern is troubling.Did I say too much?-
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No, actually, it's not.Twomz wrote:Basically, it is bad for the game to just vote for someone seriously, but not say why.
Explanations are required for potentially scummy behavior, and, of course, a lot of this game involves making cases on one another. And if you want -others- to follow your vote, you might want to give an explanation.
But a vote (particularly, an early vote) isn't per se scummy, and therefore doesn't require an explanation. It's sometimes a good idea, and sometimes not.
Not throwing votes into this because this isn't a particularly scummy philosophical conversation, yet, on AFAICT, any side.Did I say too much?-
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This is Designer Mafia. All the roles are new--don't assume anything.Nocmen wrote: I don't see really how it would be role motivated, unless it was a lyncher or something,
For example, I could see:
An Anti-mason (you know [insert group, probably 1 person] is scum).
A mason (you know, that oh-so-unsual mason role? The one that you can use to know people are innocent on day 1 and therefore have a better-than-normal idea of who's scum?)
Day-cop.
Vote-forcer (day vote-forcer, presumably).
And I'm sure people can think of variations and possibilities.
I'm pretty happy with my vote on Nocmen (oh, right, that's where it is. I knew that).Did I say too much?-
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I actually think SSF is the most suspicous of those on the thyroid bandwagon. (which is a really, really stupid bandwagon. What, someone's going to fake-claim a verifyable role on day 1?)
unvote
vote: SSF
Foolinc may just be following, but I think SSF may have decided that he ph3rz teh t1k3tz...because he's scum.Did I say too much?-
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Um, no.curiouskarmadog wrote: Mneme explains that Noc’s vote without explanation is rolefishing (WTF?). Jesus, more meeping conversation. More conversation about the tickets.
I explained that Noc's demanding an explaination for a vote (don't remember from whom any more), and keeping pressure on for same beyond reason was rolefishing. (and, really, generally bad play). As I mentioned then, "I'm voting X and don't feel like explaining why" is not, per se, scummy.
Er, yeah. The wagon on foolinc was clearly because of his pressuring thyroid, just as the one on zoneace is.curiouskarmadog wrote: (why now?), wants to know why the wagon on foolinc (have you been reading?)..wants to know why he only has two votes. Not too much on this page.
I'd like to know this too.curiouskarmadog wrote: Thyro, can you tell us how many tickets you have sold currently and who have bought those tickets? My count is 3, but I am not sure.Did I say too much?-
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Zone: I need not explain myself, nor should the explaination be inobvious; I'm voting you for the same reason I was voting foolinc for, only moreso. Near as I can tell, you're the player who pushed Thyroidectomy's bandwagon farthest and longest; in fact, you're still on it. I don't think "logicless" means what you think it does.
And...opportunism? Going from a 5 person bandwagon that just grew to a 3 person (now 4) bandwagon? A bit omgusish of you.Did I say too much?-
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thirded on UA: 618. Voting for annoyance rather than scummy is tres scummy.
I never got the impression that Nocmen's restriction was only when someone mentioned his name immediately after his posts -- just that it had to be mentioned at some point between his last post and the next one or he could only talk in meeps.Did I say too much?-
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Well, let's see:
p1:
3 meeps posts from nocmen. Quoting him apparenlty doesn't count.
schiz mentions his name.
aimee mentions his name.
p2:
nocmen talks normally.
nocmen talks normally
fl sez nocmen x2
twomz sez nocmen
I say nocmen
(battlemage -may- say nocmen -- a screwed up vote with semicolons instead of colons)
nocmen talks normally
nocmen talks normally
nocmen talks normally
p3:
nocmen talks normally
I say nocmen
nocmen meeps
nocmen talks normally
p4:
nocmen talks normally
thyroid says nocmen x2
p5:
nocmen talks normally
bamboo mentions nocmen x2
stark mentions nocmen
nocmen talks normally
nocmen meeps
avalon mentions nocmen
nocmen talks normally
tornado mentions nocmen
schitz mentions nocmen
nocmen talks normally.
Looking at every incidence of someone mentioning nocmen -not- in a vote and not as part of a quote tag (either b;quote="Nocmen"] or as the body of the tag), it does look like nocmen has obeyed the post restriction "must not post normally more often than your name is mentioned".
If Twomz were to turn out to be scum, I'd be a bit more suspicous, natch.Did I say too much?-
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FL: sure there is. We don't know what his restriction is. And linking this early to twomz would be just dumb. Can you say "witch hunt?" Sure, you can!
Oddly enough, not everyone who agrees with you is always scum -- and scum are usually smart enough not to obviously link too early. Which is why, while I'm pretty certain there are scum among those attacking Nocmen and Thesp -- -even if they're scum- -- I doubt -all- of those attacking them are scum.
My guess is that Nocmen's role is as presented -- even if it's been switched to scum or mucked with in other ways.Did I say too much?-
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*laugh*JDodge wrote: I've noticed that you can beincredibly distinctlyconnected to Nocmen, and that mneme seems to have more info than he should. Nocmen has beenproven to be lying.
"more info than he should"? It's called inductive logic, JDodge. You should try learning it sometime; it's a useful skill. Perhaps you should pick up the game Zendo -- it's a very cool game (and oddly enough, one I don't suck at). All I did was pull out nocmen's posts and those that mentioned him (actually, I just text-searched though the first five pages for "nocmen" -- it's not hard) and tried to find a pattern that would fit the role as it's so far been hinted at. Note, hinted at, not told:
Nocmen hasas far as I remember. He's hinted at a few things, and Twomz has told us some things about the role he submitted (which may not be exactly what Nocmen has -- and Twomz could be lying, of course). And people have made deductions based on what has been said about Nocmen's role -- but he's -never- come out and said how it works. Perhaps he doesn't want to. Perhaps he's restricted from doing so. Perhaps he's making it up as he goes along.never told us how his role workswe don't know.Did I say too much?-
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Twomz: I stand corrected. What then is the connection people are drawing between you and Nocmen, then? If anything, it's jedi who submitted the appropriate role, and him they should be claiming is linked to Nocmen's role (since, after all, if Nocmen is faking his post restriction, -jedi- is lying).Did I say too much?-
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Decoded for the reading comprehension impaired (like FL). Jedi double-linking to Nocmen (as is the case if Nocmen does not have a "meep" role as described) would be very dumb on both their parts this early in the game. (I somehow had the impression that twomz had submitted this role, but was corrected).mneme wrote:FL: sure there is. We don't know what his restriction is. And linking this early to twomz would be just dumb. Can you say "witch hunt?" Sure, you can!
Speculating on people faking roles that are then confirmed as made up by another player is fruitless and game-harmful -- first, there's not much percentage in faking a role in this game, rather than slanting a role slightly. Second, if players -have- messed up by linking too early, then we'll probably catch them at it later; there's no reason to presume it and cut off other lines of investigation.Did I say too much?-
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rereads...
Ok, Oman, the extra vote thing is real, right? (we all have as many votes as we want for different peopleonly you get to multiply your vote)
Anyways, not really worried about discussing a vote-multipler power, particularly with a kingmaker around. Not interested in powering it up, either; a static bonus can be useful if the character is pro-town, but we don't have any reason to believe that oman is protown (nor antitown).
King Shanba, have you decided whom to kill yet? This game is going SOOOO SLOOW.Did I say too much?-
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We have a lot more actively scummy people (I'm talking to you, Dodge and Zoneace) for it to be worth lynching Kscope -just- because he's a serial lurker. Moreover, his interaction with known scum, if Oman's claim is correct (ie, scitz) and living scummy people points toward him being town.
Twomz was dead town, is now living dead. Not necessarily town now. That said, Twomz, who'd you protect night 1? Anyone wanna claim zombie master (or whatever)? Or claim to have submitted a resurecting role?
Jedi: defended (claimed) a pro-town role he created. Town.
King Shanba: could be the result of renfairness. Might not be. Not going to assume this one, particularly since it didn't meet the stated qual.
So:
Scum: JDodge, ZONEACE. Those who turn their scum-hunting powers to evil shall in their own turn be hunted.FOS: ZONEACE(wasn't there someone else gung-ho against Nocmen?)
Vote: JDodge
Town: Jedi, Probably Thyroid, kscope
IMO: Nocmen had some kind of investigatory role. Pro-town, post restriction usually = investigate. The blue shirt probably let him target someone else and dupe their power -- in this case, he duped the "fake someone's death in the morning post" power...in the night he himself died.
TSS is alive; he was the first player "killed" with Shamba's power, right?Did I say too much?-
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Being obvwrong is a scumtell, yes. Copious amounts of WRONG are a scumtell. Witchhunting, going after people because of powers, rather than because of interaction, is a scumtell. (also, being JDodge or ZONEACE is a scumtell, but that's immaterial Neither you nor Zone have done any scumhunting at all this game; all you've done is try to start bandwagons on players for non-scummy actions; thus, you've both got a high probabity of being scum.
ZONE: it's an educated guess. Shamba did the same thing twice; once to TSS, once to himself. Last night, exactly the same thing happened to Nocmen. So clearly, there was a duplicating role going on, and with two factors (nocmen was targetted by jedi, nocmen presumably had his own powers), I don't see a reason to speculate about a third one. Of the two, it's much more likely that the "copy an ability as it was used" one was temp, not perm, given its wierdness, but that's the biggest stretch in the bunch.Did I say too much?-
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The argument that JDodge is as likely to be vig as scum is the one that's horrendous. No killer is-ever- as likely to be vig as scum, without an innocent cop investigation, at least. Moreover, even with JDodge's stated beliefs, vig-killing nocmen would have horrid play.
JDodge is scum who thought he could get Protown Nocmen lynched yesterday on the strength of "inconsistencies" in his meeping role. He couldn't, and fearing that Nocmen was a cop, he killed him. But unbeknownst to him, Nocmen was actually playing a poison pill role, which tries to get itself nightkilled to reveal a scum, so he's screwed. It isn't hard to figure, and kscope's reveal was exactly correct.Did I say too much?-
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*nod* Puppet master is very different from QFT-guy (but Bel's puppet nature being revealed makes his role a little to a lot worse). Regardless, both roles are confirmable (puppet master is effectively a single player mason or mafia pair; double-voter makes multiple votes...) and neither is confirmed town by ability, so we should really wait on this stuff.
And just lynch JDodge, who needs to die.Did I say too much?-
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I'd guess it's majority. Which means at a minimum, we have 18 votes (possibly 19). That means, if we don't have funky powers messing with the majority threshold directly (ew, why) that there are two extra votes in the game.Twomz wrote: So, it's majority +1 is it? And mneme just posted a few posts up.
FOS: ShambaAs the man said, stop rolefishing. I do not want to know who controlls Belgarion at this time; at best he should drop breadcrumbs so he can pick them up when him or his alt die. The only reason, berift of suspicion, for him to reveal all is so your mafia buddies can have a better choice of targets. Also, you're defending your buddy Jdodge too hard; as much as I like the idea of a two-fer, you're making it far too easy.
Death recruiter is certainly possible (in fact, the possiblity is the only reason a resurectionist isn't pretty much broken), but the indication is that Twomz's rez is due to the yellow shirt. That said, I expect Twomz to drop dead again tonight; unless he was resurected by the mafia, he's simply far too valuable (as a confirmed doc) not to kill, and it's unlikely that MoS put -too- many docs in the game.
Also, your argument for why the mafia wouldn't kill Nocmen is garbage. Both his believed role and the common wisdom re post restrictions would point to him having a useful, and probabily information-based, power. If anything, it requires chutzpah, without any evidence aside from a claim, suggest that dead protown + no other deaths + confirmation of killer of dead protown has ANYTHING other as a simplest explaination than "killer = mafia".
CKD, Oman puportedly gets +.25 of a vote for each QFT, maxing out at +2 votes. He got QFT-spammed today (by Belgarion, mostly), so he presumably gets 3 votes tomorrow. I'll note that Oman's role is more or less broken as mafia (it lets the mafia win from 5/2 town/mafia if QFT-spamming works and the town doesn't have double voters or night kills!). so I'd count him as near confirmed if he can prove his claim. (that said, could be a kill-optional SK, or maybe mafia can't QFT, only town). Plus, of course, more multi-votes than we've seen claimed would balance this out to a degree.Did I say too much?-
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mneme emneme mneme mninie mno
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Agreed. His role doesn't confirm alignment, but it is indicative, so it's very useful to confirm (or, you know, not).Shanba wrote:
Again, the players I "killed" (myself and tss) do not appear on the still living list, but we are, in fact, still alive - those are the votes you're missing.mneme wrote:Which means at a minimum, we have 18 votes (possibly 19)
There are only 15 players on the living list. I was assuming you were the remaining player, and forgot about TSS. But that only gets us to 17; which still leaves us one vote short.
Noticed. Find some buddies and you can argue your force with more, well force. Me, I'd rather leave the single player mason alone for the moment and give our (probably doomed) doctor a smaller choice of targets to defend. In general, masons shouldn't come out without a good argument; one player ain't it. Anyway, I suspect one can easily figure out who Belgarion is the alter of by looking at who started posting again near when he did.Shanba wrote:Well for one thing, I think it's pretty clear Idosuspect him: I am, you know, voting him.
You started with fishing. You then got more explicit.Shanba wrote:For another, it was not fishing: I was pretty explicit that I wanted him to reveal his role.
Repeating a bad defense just looks more scummy, not more genuine.Shanba wrote: The arguments against him are fundamentally flawed, and I hate craplogic. If I disagree with something, I will say it. (As a sidenote, I tihnk the way you get me to repeat my defence of Jdodge and the accuse me of defending him too hard is disingenuous at best.)
That last bit is the usual case, yes. I don't have any info that makes me think it's untrue, do you?Shanba wrote: Ok, well there are two points here. First, you claim that scum would kill Nocmen because he had a pr, second, you state that because there was only one kill and that kill was town, it was a mafia kill.
Moreover, your argument relies on the assumption that the arguments of a very small number of very loud people against Nocmen were likely to be effective. Since it -was- a very small number of people, that seems disingenous.
Actually, looking at the roles chosen compared to submision claims, I'll challenge that last bit. There was a single mod who had full power over balance/role design. The fact that MoS farmed out a lot of the brainstorming to us doesn't change the fact that he clearly spent a lot of time and attention making sure the roles were reasonably balanced and playable once assigned.Shanba wrote:be anything from double voter to unkillable, and it certainly doesn't mean anything where the setup was not designed by a single mod with full power over balance/role design.
Please leave your straw man in Oz -- Nocmen wasn't even a little scummy; instead, there were a few specific scummy people who wanted to lynch him because he had a post restriction. They might have assumed they'd have better success on later days...but they might as easily have assumed that their ploy had failed and would fail.Shanba wrote:Your conclusion doesn't even follow from this assumption, though. Say player x claims cop. However, he has been acting scummy all game
I don't really understand JDodge's claimed day/night reversal. Does anyone? Does JDodge? Without knowing how it works, it's impossible to know how useful it is and whether it in itself is worthwhile beyond proving his role. Assuming everything is secret that usually is, it does what? Turn night-cops into day-cops, mafia into day-discussing scum with a daykill, etc; just reversing night and day timing? Beyond making it slightly more likely that cops will be able to talk even if kill-targetted (ie, they may be able to race with day-killing scum and win), I fail to see how this benefits the town significantly.
If the scum missed their kill, I'd have expected to see a strong attack on at least one player who wasn't Jdodge. (OTOH, there's a lot of WIFOM there, so hey).
Shanba re Oman wrote: I want confirmation of his role as soon as possible, as people qfted him yesterday and he suddenly came up with an explanation today of why it didn't give him any votes.Did I say too much?-
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mneme emneme mneme mninie mno
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One. Yes, there's a missing kills from night 1, though we had a living doc then.stark wrote:
Well, we know that there was an SK, and that there's a mafia, which makes two right there.the silent speaker wrote: We've had one kill per night. What missing kill?
No missing kills from last night unless JDodge is telling the truth about his role.Did I say too much?-
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I'm inclined to lynch Sir T because while JDodge -might- be lying, Sir T is certainly lying, ne?
Unless the ability was "in a night you die, anyone who targeted you" (gains this post restriction), I don't see it.
onegai, Sir T, can you elucidate? Was there a reason Nocmen's fake death looked exactly like Shanba's?Did I say too much?-
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mneme emneme mneme mninie mno
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FOS: Kison
Sir T has explained sufficiently for me, at least, and his not-really-a-roleclaim is very confirmable. Doesn't mean he's not -also- scum, of course. (note: as stated, it's pretty likely scum, as well as town, can figure out what the ability is, more or less).
(also, "restriction adheres to everyone who targets you when you die" is much more comfortalbe than "restriction just affects your killer(s)).
I'm still not seeing how JDodge's role can be at all useful to us (ie, the town).Did I say too much?-
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I could see the fake death with a bunch of uses, if it had been used a bit more carefully.
The way it was actually (tried to be) used was just to get a bit if extra info.
In theory, Shamba could have used it to "hide" from the scum if he kept the mask up for a few days, possibly hiding some other players with him (but that could backfire if one of them is scum). More realistic death notes could help there too.
As it was, it's mostly a flavor ability, though.Did I say too much?-
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