Raw, Unfiltered, UPICK Game Over !

[Marky Mark]

Great intro Gamma - thank your sir!

Time to put on our thinking caps and batter some scum.

VOTE: Jake 1v1 me bro

--pedit: we are so in sync, Mistyx. Townbloc is clearly already forming

[Marky Mark]

if you're trying to pocket me, you'll have to try harder than that :p

I mean I just felt like we had a special connection there for a moment, but maybe you just don't see me that way??

[Marky Mark]

*crickets*

I thought the rest of the playerlist would be itching to get going rn...

[Marky Mark]

CHAOS HAS ARRIVED.

Now who would like tea?

*offers VOTE: Cassowary a cup*

Lovely to play with you again Flea - I really felt for you when you threw yourself on vax, just for the town to elim him anyway, in our previous game together

Night all

[Marky Mark]

Great intro Gamma - thank your sir!

Time to put on our thinking caps and batter some scum.

VOTE: Jake 1v1 me bro

--pedit: we are so in sync, Mistyx. Townbloc is clearly already forming

While I agree, I simultaneously find this post to be contrived and therefore suspicious. Let’s prosecute this.

vote: Marky Mark

Tone is subjective, but I can see this thought process coming from a place of being town

VOTE: Marky

I find your eagerness disingenuous and will be voting for you as a result

Fidget jumping on the back of this immediately afterwards (their sole post so far), strikes me as more suspicous tho. Try harder pls.

[Marky Mark]

@Jake - why no love after I invited you super-seriously to 1v1 me??. After the whole Mistyx thing, this feels like one rejection after another

[Marky Mark]

Porkens, so far is most scummy of the roster.

I agree that this is scummy - doesnt feel like a random vote, but if was non-random would expect at least a vague justification

[Marky Mark]

You know what,

VOTE: Fidgit

Seeing as Jake doesnt want to 1v1 me, you'll do. Perhaps you could start by explaining how eagerness for a game we've literally been waiting for over a month to finally start is disingenuous?

[Marky Mark]

@Jake - why no love after I invited you super-seriously to 1v1 me??. After the whole Mistyx thing, this feels like one rejection after another

Who... are you?

I'm not falling for a flavour-fishing attempt that obvious

[Marky Mark]

It wasn’t really a comment on “tone.” The words we choose have desired effects. The words you chose seem to be LAMIST and specifically designed in other ways to seem town. In short, I think you are trying to “look town” moreso than a genuine town would feel necessary.

I mean yeah, it's definitely that and not anything else.

[Marky Mark]

@Porkens and Grendel pls just both answer each other's questions and stop arguing over who answers first. Would be interesting to hear from both of you

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: Vaxkiller

I got cursed by a jerkass God, so I don't trust Gods...

I feel like we've kinda started to move beyond RVS - do you have any thoughts on any of the preceding 82 posts?

[Marky Mark]

@Porkens and Grendel pls just both answer each other's questions and stop arguing over who answers first. Would be interesting to hear from both of you

It wasn’t really a comment on “tone.” The words we choose have desired effects. The words you chose seem to be LAMIST and specifically designed in other ways to seem town. In short, I think you are trying to “look town” moreso than a genuine town would feel necessary.

I mean yeah, it's definitely that and not anything else.

What else is it?

@Porkens and Grendel pls just both answer each other's questions and stop arguing over who answers first. Would be interesting to hear from both of you

My answer is on this page, above two posts that responded to it.

That's an answer to a different question (ref flavourclaims), not the one grendel asked you in 75 (ref my op)

Ref my opening post, see if you can work out why I might try and weave certain words or statements in there early

[Marky Mark]

Re flavor claims: I do agree flavor almost certainly is not alignment-indicative, bc my flavor character doesn't match my alignment.

I'm lowkey wondering if you're scum here with a flavour that naturally leans toward scum and you're worried about being flavourcopped

[Marky Mark]

What strikes you as suspicious about me?

I make an opening post. Porkens lays out, what seems on the surface, like a fairly reasonable case against it.

You just come along and jump on the wagon. Your justification of eagerness of the back of me making 4 posts feels a bit forced - I was pretty hyped for this after waiting over a month for the game to get going.

[Marky Mark]

Your eagerness to create content is interesting to me, although I do not find anything you've done hard to fake as of yet. I am curious, do you usually try to get slightly late RVS voters to give thoughts, or was this done on more of a whim, perhaps related to how excited you are to play this game?

"Eagerness to create content" == playing the game. Define interesting? If you suspect me then own your suspicions.

And yeah, game was moving beyond RVS and certain slots weren't making a meaningful effort to engage. I've been bitten by lurkerscum before, and I dont like giving people free rides.

[Marky Mark]

I get that Grendel probably has his hands full answering questions at the moment, but I'd love to toss another one into the thunderdome for him whenever he's gotten those sorted, if this question does not get answered: was your claim that Porkens is the scummiest player related to the curiosity around misty/porkens not claiming flavor?

I'll be fair tho, this post feels towny

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: Marky Mark

ez

Great intro Gamma - thank your sir!

Time to put on our thinking caps and batter some scum.

VOTE: Jake 1v1 me bro

--pedit: we are so in sync, Mistyx. Townbloc is clearly already forming

While I agree, I simultaneously find this post to be contrived and therefore suspicious. Let’s prosecute this.

vote: Marky Mark

Try harder pls lads. At least make a case against me, so that I can point out why you are wrong

I'll sheep this.

VOTE: Mark

[Marky Mark]

Lol, I cant format posts. The 'Try harder pls lads.' line of the above is my commentary and ought not to be embedded in the post.

[Marky Mark]

Marky mark definitely is leaning hard into playing, "Town voice of reason." A favorite of scum's in the early game.

VOTE: Marky

Town voice of reason is the best compliment I've had in weeks on this site :3

Please tell me more about how trying to work with the rest of the town and move the game forwards makes me scum?

I like some of your analysis posts above this one so I'm not calling you out as scum here per se, I just dont get your logic

[Marky Mark]

@Fidget, yeah exactly. It's not a smoking gun, but why specifically mention their character's flavour is scummy unless there is an element of ulterior motives there? Genuine question.

I still think Fidget's 90 is reaching and forced, but their other recent posts have felt ++town, so I'mma update my vote

VOTE: Uncrowned

I'm less bothered by Vax naked voting me, as he's been engaging with the wider game (although its still in the towns interests for him to provide a justification)

Uncrowned on the other hand, rocks up, votes for me, and contributes 0 to the conversation. Just does not help us move the game forward or find scum, which is ofc lined up with scum's motives

[Marky Mark]

Other random thought - why is Fidget calling me out for my eagerness but neglecting to mention Vax, who had a significantly higher post # than me, especially at the time it was written as that was prior to my posts this evening

--pedit @fidget so basically your point is I could be scum trying to fake being proactive or be town actually being proactive. The literal point of the game is to try and sort people between those two categories .

'They are doing pro-town things, but it might be scum doing it for towncred'

(my verrry loose paraphrasing) feels like a pretty thin justification for a vote on someone lol. Yeah, I totally agree it's easy to do generic proactive things as scum so none of it is town-indicative, but I am baffled how this is in any way scum indicative either.

[Marky Mark]

i dont think acting performative in rvs is really a solid basis for a wagon

VOTE: uncrowned

i dont like that you just hop in and follow a wagon without other thoughts provided!!

do you have any individual takes on anyone?

Why not? For scum, looking towny is more important than not looking towny, after all, and I would argue it's probably the easiest to fake content at the beginning.

I'll sheep this.

VOTE: Mark

I am considering suspecting Uncrowned, but at the same time, it would have been quite easy to have commented on anything at all. He does not even elaborate on why he is voting Mark. This is potentially a complete lack of caring about his own appearance... If I were scum, I would have some thoughts prepared before entering the thread.

I see that the point being made is that Uncrowned does nothing to move the game forward or find scum.. which I would disagree with quite vehemently, actually. Although I cannot judge yet whether the intent was to move the game forward or not, I think it does, possibly more substantially than if he had said more.

So to summarise your logic:
1.)

Being proactive in RVS more likely comes from being scum than town

- I agree here that scum care more about looking town, but town have another major incentive to be proactive: finding scum!
2.)

Uncrowned's naked vote on the top wagon is less scummy than if they had justified it

- like eh idk maybe. Feels like Too scummy To Be Scum (TM) logic somewhat

I'm still trying to get a feel for you, but phrases like "I am considering suspecting" feel scummy to me. If you SR or TR someone then own your suspicions. If you think its NAI then that's cool too, but either way, being vague is not super helpful here.

[Marky Mark]

'They are doing pro-town things, but it might be scum doing it for towncred' (my verrry loose paraphrasing) feels like a pretty thin justification for a vote on someone lol

That “lol” looks forced.

lol

You beat me to the obvious response here lol

[Marky Mark]

its a matter of what you seem to be doing vs what you are actually doing. It feels to me like you are playing for town cred, and not to solve the game.

On some level you are working with town + those other things you said. However its v easy as scum who want to play a protown looking game to play agreeable with townies/ look really reasonable. THeres less stress b/c the answers are already available to scum.

Your point is still essentially that scum could replicate anything that I've done this game. This is true, but does not make me scum.

[Marky Mark]

Uncrowned on the other hand, rocks up, votes for me, and contributes 0 to the conversation. Just does not help us move the game forward

or find scum, which is ofc lined up with scum's motives

This is wrong.

Assume you're scum here. Doesn't this entirely ruin your premise?

What if I told you I was joining in to get a reaction from you? To force you to generate content you may not have been willing to do without added motivation?

Now we've seen how you react - and it's not a good one. This line in particular is over-explainy.

"Which is ofc lined up with scum's motives"

But is it really? You're making the assumption that scumcrowned would think it's plausible that you'd get quicklimmed, which doesn't happen often, especially with this number of players. Then I'd also have to bank on nobody suspecting me when it came to my vote, which was self-claimed sheep. Do you think in a 14 player game there is any scenario where I win here as scum if you get elimmed?

No, not really.

The fact of the matter is this: My vote was NAI. I could and would do it as either alignment. I could wine and be self-biased and say it's ever so slightly more town indicative, but only people with decent experience of my play would get that so it's pointless.

My senses tell me one of the people discrediting me for this vote are trying hard to get early towncred. I don't believe multiple scum would take the exact same approach on my slot, so I'll assume there's only one scum in there for now.

So, I agree with you here that your vote leading to me getting immediately limmed is unlikely. The problem though is that a naked vote on a top wagon with no other content (until now) means that:

-It is next to impossible for the rest of us to get a read on your slot, as there is nothing to go off
-It is impossible to try and refute you as you have not provided any justification.

So tldr its an easy play as scum to avoid doing anything too controversial, while gently building heat on a slot in a way they can't directly refute.

So no, I didn't make the assumption that scum!you was trying to quicklim me, its just a scummy post. Pls dont put words in my mouth

[Marky Mark]

are you pleasing w Grendel to nullread you or something?

It's up to them how they want to read me, but they are voting me on flawed logic. If people vote me for reasons that don't make sense then I will hold them to account.

What are your thoughts on the game so far? Do you usually just comment from the sidelines at this stage of D1?

[Marky Mark]

So tldr its an easy play as scum to avoid doing anything too controversial, while gently building heat on a slot in a way they can't directly refute.

Is it really an easy play if it's going to draw this much attention? There are plenty of better ways I could've entered this thread that wouldn't have made me the talking point/vote for multiple people.

Town can also build heat on a slot in that manner. Acting as if it's something only scum would do is flat out wrong and feels like an attempt at shading something and calling it scummy when it's definitely not exclusively scummy.

I mean we now know that it drew a lot of attention, but that is only through the benefit of hindsight.

and yeah tbf town can build heat on a slot too and there is merit in pushing a slot sometimes to see how they will react.

[Marky Mark]

You seem to be getting the idea that I'm scumreading you for being proactive/protown. What I find suspicious about you is how some of your posts give the appearance of being protown, but in reality are easy to make and mostly just make you seem like you're doing something than are actually doing something.

I recognize that town can do this too, but I wouldn't classify this as scumreading you for doing anything towny. You do have better posts that make me feel maybe you just have a large desire to create content due to how excited you are for the game, even if it's very little things.

Ok so if, as you say, being proactive is something that scum and town can both do, then that means you aren't SRing me for doing something towny, you are SRing me for doing something nullish?!

[Marky Mark]

It seems to me that marky is also more focused on defense and discrediting rather than scumhunting

I mean yeah sort of. It's actually kinda both defence and scumhunting. If someone is SRing you for reasons that don't make sense, then part of the scumhunting process is pushing back against that logic to see whether they are mistaken town or scum.

[Marky Mark]

I think Flea's point ref uncrowned might have some teeth - they went from post #1 being a naked vote to post #2 being a massive extended argument about why I am Scummy McScumface. Doesn't seem like a massively logical progression in terms of posting style

[Marky Mark]

I think Flea's point ref uncrowned might have some teeth - they went from post #1 being a naked vote to post #2 being a massive extended argument about why I am Scummy McScumface. Doesn't seem like a massively logical progression in terms of posting style

[Marky Mark]

There are plenty of better ways I could've entered this thread that wouldn't have made me the talking point/vote for multiple people.

I didn't give this tons of thought earlier, but the self-justification is mildly ++SR. It's pretty easy to string an argument together along the lines of "scum!me would have done XYZ instead"

[Marky Mark]

@Fidgit - cheers for the extended post. I kinda get where you are coming from, although I think that trying to help the game progress is still nullish at worst. There is a good reason for my first couple of posts, and if you think hard enough about it you can probably work it out for yourself. The rest, I think we've gone over and I kinda disagree with your logic, but I (at least somewhat) believe that you believe it.

I think it's a questionable choice of Jake and chk to go after the worst - I'm not convinced that 2 votes mid-d1 is going to carry much impetus. NAI imo, but I'd like to understand why them over, say, another inactive slot like Turin

I'll drop VAX a cheeky

FOS

too - lots of posts, but fairly thin on any scrutiny/analysis/reads. Could be posting style tbf, but feels very different to the Bears mini where we played together.

[Marky Mark]

Mildly, because it is scummy enough to point out, but not so scummy as to be a smoking gun. I want to be clear in my intentions here.

You are hard-misrepping me over "better ways" - as I've actually said in my post its the wider concept of a player trying to rationalize why scum!them would not act as they have just done. Do you disagree with my logic here?

[Marky Mark]

I didn't give this tons of thought earlier, but the self-justification is mildly ++SR. It's pretty easy to string an argument together along the lines of "scum!me would have done XYZ instead"

Again, this is something that a townie can 100% do.

What is your Mafia experience like?

Are you going to give actual reasons for your SR or are you going to keep coming up with NAI stuff that you're conf!biasing into a bad read?

Yeah for sure, a townie can also play the "scum!me wouldn't do XYZ card", but overall scum have more reasons (in my experience) to play this card.

I've already made it very clear that I found this AI, but only to a limited extent, so please don't misrep me

I made an account on this site in 2014 and played ~2 games. I returned a few months ago and have played another ~4 games since.

I have given you fairly explicitly my reasons for an SR on you - I'm happy to chat through any or all of them but please dont misrep me by claiming that I haven't provided reasons for my SR.

[Marky Mark]

Mark is >rand scum atm but there's decent chance he's just clueless town

No need to be rude dude

If you're actually town here, work with me to help me see why my reasons for suspecting you (which I have clearly laid out) are mistaken. You are doing this to an extent, and I appreciate this.

Flailing at me and trying to misrep me by saying that I haven't explained my reasons for SRing you is not making me think that you're town here.

[Marky Mark]

Not the first time you've voted me with minimal explanation Vax (unless your reason is that you think I'm wrong about uncrowned, which you have alluded to).

Why vote Porkens earlier in 163? I'm not sure you explained that one either

[Marky Mark]

Morning all

The vote count is not quite right - Vax is voting me, ie Uncrowned and I are both on 5.

Jake has managed to post a decent amount without saying very much at all. Their vote is now also fairly moot as the slot is being replaced. @Jake - what are your thoughts on the leading wagons?

I am starting to TR Cassoway because I just feel like they are on a similar wavelength. 216 in particular summed up what I was thinking far more articulately than I was able to put across

[Marky Mark]

Morning uncrowned, good timing

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: Uncrowned

I will bah bah eh-like a sheep.

Hey guys, look. Someone sheeping a wagon.

Clear scum. Let's elim them.

I mean yeah, I agree naked votes are never great as its hard to get a feel for the slot's thought process behind the vote

BUT.... I think you are being slightly disingenuous here. There's a big difference between
1.) An active player updating their vote after the person they were voting is replaced

and

2.) You entering the game reasonably far through with a naked vote and no other commentary/analysis

[Marky Mark]

But *why* is it more likely for scum to do what I'm doing than town would be? That still hasn't been answered yet.

As others have mentioned, scum tend to care more about looking town then actual townies do. It's certainly something I have seen scum do in previous games to try and rationalise/defend their actions

[Marky Mark]

Have you read Chkflp's ISO at all or are you just talking out of your ass?

They are the exact same thing and if you're SRing me, you are 1000% SRing them too.

Mate, you need to calm down. There's no need to talk to me like that :S

Entering the game with a naked vote and nothing else is clearly different to having a bunch of posts (true, a lot of fluff, but also some content) and then updating a vote with a naked vote. It's still not a great look for chkflip, but it is not the same context at all as your opening post.

How is my first vote the act of a scum who would care about looking town, exactly?

I'm not seeing your thought process here at all.

You dropped your vote, you got more heat than you imagined you would for it, you then wrote a massive second post trying to justify your first one and then carry on in later posts trying to rationalise how town!you would never have made that first post. That feels to me like someone who actually cares a lot about looking town.

Your points are literally contradicting each other now.

There is no case on me. The wagon is crap and the PoE should be the people on it.

As above, I don't see any particular contradiction between your first post trying to lay low and avoid saying too much and then subsequently trying hard to rationalise it away when it drew heat. I could be mistaken ofc, but your behaviours so far feel more likely to come from a place of scum than town.

[Marky Mark]

Still keen to hear back from both Vax and Not Known on the questions I asked them btw

[Marky Mark]

How much do you actually believe this?

Don't shade me please. Given that you went from a first post with a naked vote to a short essay for your second post, actually yeah I do think this. I've seen players drop naked votes for first votes before (obvs), but they also tend to be the type to stay on the fringes of the game, not then subequently go to such lengths to defend/rationalise their actions

[Marky Mark]

If you even want to go into iffy self-meta territory, I could argue this as being more town indicative for me, as this is something I've done in several town games during the early game while never having done it in a scum game.

Also very interesting how you entirely ignore this.

As soon as something pops up that threatens your paper thin reason for voting me, you immediately go in other routes. Doesn't really read like someone who is uninformed to me.

Any actual uninformed person would either do research on the meta or ask for me to show examples of me doing this at the start of my town games.

So Mark is informed AKA scum and at the moment Chkflp is decent partner equity.

Let's elim between there, squad.

Lol. I didn't delve into this because:
a.) as you said yourself self-meta is iffy and the fact that you have brought it up means that you would want me to find it
and
b.) as a rule of thumb, I don't trawl through each slot's playing history in search of whether theyve shown a specific behaviour in previous games

I don't think anyone else has done any meta-delving in this game, so from my pov you are singling me out for not doing something that nobody else is doing either

[Marky Mark]

You're criminally underestimating my self-awareness as both alignments.

I know exactly how I would be perceived for voting like that, especially when it's on Page 4 and not any earlier.

Ok, lets assume you knew what you were doing and it was a deliberately provocative play. This fmpov makes your behaviour feel inconsistent - in your OP you aren't worried about looking town, but you then subsequently come across as caring very much about that, eg in your second and third posts.

[Marky Mark]

I'm singling you out because you're the most actively engaged and I would assume the one who most strongly believes I am scum.

You can't talk about "let's work together" and all that LAMISTy stuff while actively and blatantly ignoring the most clear evidence that my initial vote was at best town indicative for me, or at worst completely null in determining my alignment.

But I'm not ignoring the initial evidence - I've explained why it is scum indicative, especially when contrasted to your subsequent play.

I wouldn't say I'm worried about how I'm coming off at all. I'm just playing.

Do you really think I'm hitting panic mode after I get a couple votes on me in the early game when in general, as I said about your wagon, these early game wagons usually don't amount to elims? If this was a newbie and I was playing in my first ever scum-game, sure that could be plausible. Here, though? It doesn't make much sense.

As I've kinda already said, I dont see either my wagon or yours leading to an immediate elim, but yeah the volume of reaction from you in contrast to the initial post does strike me as panicing somewhat. You're clearly not newbscum here, but I could see scum in general in your situation being concerned in a general sense about getting too much heat.

Also, being self-aware doesn't necessarily mean you care about how you're perceived. It just means you know or have a sense of how you're going to be perceived for making certain plays/posts.

Valid point

[Marky Mark]

The self-awareness bit isn't meant o be a tell of alignment. It's meant to signify that, no, something as basic as early game posting where I naked vote and then make a push on the slot that reacts badly to that vote is something that I

1: Know will generate interest in my slot, both good and bad.

2: Could put me at the forefront of a wagon.

It is well within both alignment ranges for me.

And for Mark, who is trying to put up this pretense as a "hey let's work this out together" kinda guy, failing to understand this or give it any sort of credence goes directly against the character he's trying to portray. The inconsistency is scummy af

I am trying to sort you - I do want to work together if you are town here, but posts like this when you twist where I'm coming from in a disingenuous way don't really help.

The initial post is scumlean, the subsequent defence including the self meta is also scumlean and the two together (low-effort initial post followed by high-effort subsequent self defence and attack on me) don't feel massively consistent. Of course, I could be wrong and your initial post could be a ploy to generate reactions as you suggest - this feels unlikely though given how the follow-up is inconsistent with it.

[Marky Mark]

You can't talk about "let's work together" and all that LAMISTy stuff while actively and blatantly ignoring the most clear evidence that my initial vote was at best town indicative for me, or at worst completely null in determining my alignment.

I want to come back to this, because I am keen to work together as a group, but I also feel like you are acting in bad faith towards me, which is putting up a barrier to talking through things. You have continually misrepped me throughout our conversation eg

155 - you outright state that I assumed that scum!you would think they could quicklim me, which simply wasn't true. If you'd just asked me to clarify my position, I could have explained this. Instead, you launch an attack on me based on a completely incorrect premise of how I was viewing events.

206 - you claim that I hadn't been providing reasons to SR you, when I had in fact spelled them out at length in the thread.

229 - you imply that I was being inconsistent by not treating you and chkflip the same, when it was pretty clear that both of you naked voted in very different contexts. I think you knew this too.

238 - you try to claim that if I actually was scumhunting you in good faith then I would be looking into your meta, despite the fact that this is not something I generally do, and not something that anyone else in the thread had been doing.

If you were actually town here, I could understand you refuting my points if you thought I was mistaken, but I don't see what motive you would have to repeatedly misrep me and twist the truth like this

[Marky Mark]

Aside from my top SR of uncrowned,

FOS Jake and Vax

- both slots seem to be fairly thin on scumhunting/analysis compared to their # of posts.

I'm probs gonna be off for the rest of the weekend, but may check in now and again if I have time.

[Marky Mark]

Dang, L-2. Careful with that wagon, Eugene.

Oh man I forgot how gross this was.

"Hey guys, L-2 watch out watch out but lemme stay on the wagon."

I agree, this does not look good.

My vote stays where it is, though.

If you are seeing uncrowned as scummy here and also voting me then are you interpreting me and uncrowned clashing in this thread as scum vs scum?

[Marky Mark]

I'll drop VAX a cheeky FOS too - lots of posts, but fairly thin on any scrutiny/analysis/reads. Could be posting style tbf, but feels very different to the Bears mini where we played together.

I dont remember u in bears, were you in a hydra?

What the hell is a "cheeky" FOS

It was just me and I was a VT.

A cheeky FOS is a bit like a cheeky Nando's but instead of delicious fried chicken you get to be one of my SRs.

[Marky Mark]

Still keen to hear back from both Vax and Not Known on the questions I asked them btw

?

Not the first time you've voted me with minimal explanation Vax (unless your reason is that you think I'm wrong about uncrowned, which you have alluded to).

Why vote Porkens earlier in 163? I'm not sure you explained that one either

[Marky Mark]

3: It's just very convenient that the one thing that ruins your "reason" for SRing me is what you ignored. If you don't look into meta that much, then fine. Not much either of us can do about that. The fact is though that you're wrong and if you're really concerned about engaging in "good faith" you either would've given this meta some credence or asked me to provide examples, of which you didn't.

If you've brought something up as self-meta then I believe that you have examples for it, but it is of limited usefulness as you have selectively picked it to prove a point. I will let the rest of the town decide whether it's bad faith to SR/vote someone without diving into their meta when they try to use it as a defence.

I'm not really interested in engaging with you anymore based on your whole "stop misrepping me" thing. It's getting tiresome. There's a difference between misrepping and having different opinions. I could argue I'm being misrepped as well by the blatant disregard of both my meta, posting style and the fact that you're making assumptions such as "I didn't want to generate so much heat" when anyone who knows me knows I am 100% fine with being thrown into chaos and being forced into these types of interactions. Don't be hypocritical, yeah?

I have explained how I feel like you are misrepping me with examples. You disagree, and have argued those points, but its not like I'm throwing around naked accusations here - I've backed up my accusations with specific examples and I'm trying to spell this out in good faith so that the playerbase can see and make their own judgements. I don't think I'm being hypocritical here, but happy to hear from others on this too

I have played agianst scum before who have pulled the "I'm not interested in engaging with you card" when I was (correctly) pushing them. That doesn't mean that you are scum here because you are saying the same thing ofc, but it is a behaviour that in my experience tends to come from scum.

[Marky Mark]

@Uncrowned, all this being said, I don't see why scum!you would let me off the hook somewhat with 277, so have some townpoints for that

[Marky Mark]

I don't exist to scumhunt. I exist to be a terrible quote machine.

You were way more active/involved than this in the micro we played together where you and ircher were a hydra

I don't think voting you would achieve much here in terms of pressure, but I'd be keen to hear from others if this normal Jake play

I'm happy with my vote where its at, but would also consider a vote on Not Known and/or Vax. I'll wait for their responses to my questions.

Top TRs for me rn are cass and misty (despite misty's p1 rejection of me )

[Marky Mark]

Welcome Jesse

@cass - who do you see as being scum here, if not uncrowned?

[Marky Mark]

So far, this has probably been the slowest non-newbie game I've played in, despite being a large normal :O

[Marky Mark]

I'm still SRing uncrowned here, although some of his most recent posts have reduced the strength of that SR. That said, we have at least discussed our positions on each other at length, so let's mix this up and try to sort some other slots

Not known

I've asked you a question in 290 - please respond. On the face of it your post seems to be finding me AND uncrowned scummy, which seems contrary to most other players' reaction to our 1v1

I would vote for Jake if I thought it would make him post more content/analysis, but I don't reckon he cares enough. I'm also upgrading my

Cheeky

FOS on Vax to

Very Cheeky

- I've asked them a question, and would love an answer

I totally get people being busy etc etc, but surely between the 14 of us we can get some discussion going and make it harder for lurkerscum to hide

[Marky Mark]

Whoops, mustve used bold tags rather than vote tags, let me fix that

VOTE: Not Known

[Marky Mark]

@Not known Thanks for the response. What are your thoughts on the associatives between our (mine and uncrowned) slots?

Looking forward to hearing your wider thoughts on the game too, once you've caught up

[Marky Mark]

Still keen to hear back from both Vax and Not Known on the questions I asked them btw

?

Not the first time you've voted me with minimal explanation Vax (unless your reason is that you think I'm wrong about uncrowned, which you have alluded to).

Why vote Porkens earlier in 163? I'm not sure you explained that one either

Gut. Wagonomics. No reason. You choose. We are also like 10 pages in. Were you this chatty in bears?

I was probs similarly chatty in bears, but it would've been less obvious as the rest of the plist liked generating 10+ pages per irl day.

You clearly had a reason for voting porkens (even if it was thin, seeing as it was early D1), so please just answer the question

[Marky Mark]

I mean if I vote Jake here it would be 100% for pressure to encourage him to engage with the game, but based on his 259, I'm not massively confident in that.

If you'd provided some justification/logic at the time vax, or answered the initial question, you wouldnt have to go back and check

[Marky Mark]

Ok, that makes sense. Cheers for the explanation, lol. Thoughts on the game atm?

[Marky Mark]

@Not Known I mean you were already voting me lol.

I think your justification of your SR on me is off - if people eg uncrowned are making arguments against me that dont logically follow, then part of sorting those slots is refuting the arguments to see how they handle that. I would also question how 1v1ing someone over several pages is "so soft".

Like, other parts of your reads feel decent and I can see how some of the associatives might make sense fypov so townpoints where its due for that. Your thought process in your continued vote on me just feels a bit lazy though :S

[Marky Mark]

Lmao, as if I'm actually being SRed for saying 'please' and 'mate'

You've genuinely brightened my evening up - I'm loving this new hypothesis that trying to be a decent human being when talking to people makes you scum

[Marky Mark]

Night all, look after yourselves

[Marky Mark]

Evening all, great to see the game picking up pace and to have two new players with us

Sadly, I have been pretty busy IRL today due to a hole in the wall of my house amongst other things, so will be giving this a very brief skim before bed and then a more thorough look tomorrow evening

[Marky Mark]

So let me say that I am all in favour of some town coordination and focussing on key wagons by consensus. I voted outside of uncrowned as I felt I wasn't going to get much more out of that conversation at that point in time, especially with them playing the whole "I don't want to interact with you" card. I still SR them and would vote there.

Some general thoughts:

Chkflip is still sheeping votes, eg consider 373 following GreyICE's case on fidget.

@Grey help me understand a couple of things from your POV here:
-Why do you think the Not Known wagon is bad? Have you seen their justification of their vote on me!? Highlights included me being scum for saying 'please' and 'mate'
-Why are you seeing Uncrowned as obvtown here?

Fidget made some reaching posts early on and I'd paint them scummier than the average slot this game, so I do get the case here. Tbf, some of their posts I saw as towny at the time now feel kinda narrative when reviewed.

Jesse's evolution on my slot from SRing me to saying I was townflailing felt weird, although this may be a side-effect of catching up.

I'm not sure I buy grendel's logic that scum must've been on the vanity wagons rather than voting me or uncrowned -> I can see how one wagon could've been primarily scum and the other primarily town, balancing each other out. It was also early enough in the day that the chance of either leading to an immediate elim was lowish.
++townpoints for thinking through the situation and providing analysis though.

[Marky Mark]

Jake's engagement with the game at a very surface level is lowkey pinging me, but right now what I would really like to see is a wagon on Not Known. I'd settle for one on uncrowned or fidget as secondary choices.

Not Known's case on me felt like they were stretching the facts to fit the conclusion they wanted to arrive at, rather than vice versa. 324 is the smoking gun here. It's like they wanted to try and paint me as scum and then went through my posts to try and make them fit their narrative of pulling my punches against uncrowned.

They've not posted a lot and I feel like this is a slot that's well worth digging into - even in the responses so far I feel like we've started to uncover some usual stuff to help sort them, as mentioned above.

[Marky Mark]

Night all, I'll try and jump on after work tomorrow for a bit longer

[Marky Mark]

Phoneposting

@grey you make some valid points ref Not Known. I've looked back over their earlier posts and they are fairly perceptive.

I also agree that CONSIDERING the possibility that uncrowned and I might be S/S is open-minded, but I thought their evidence post of me generally being polite was trying to stretch the facts to fit their vote in a way that makes me SR them.

[Marky Mark]

I think that being possessive over the game state D1 like GreyICE has been is generally a townie trait.

Math is similar, tho i do do see potential ulterior motives for where they are going with things.

What's the difference between the two slots in this sense from your POV?

[Marky Mark]

I don't follow the theory that Not Known is town because they called a flavour massclaim scummy. SRing people who suggest massclaims is pretty standard and I can't speak for other slots, but I certainly wasn't thinking in terms of any 3rd party angles at the time, so the lack of mention of one isn't a big deal IMO

[Marky Mark]

Fidgit's not been online since Sunday so while I agree they've done some scummy stuff, I'm not sure how much we will get out of having this discussion in their absence compared to, say, a wagon on someone who is going to answer back.

[Marky Mark]

Lol, are you always this abrasive?

[Marky Mark]

Yet you don't even seem curious about why I might think something.

That's why I said I don't follow the theory -> I was kinda expecting you to reply

[Marky Mark]

I haven't played that many games but finding third party doesn't tend to be something that's at the forefront of my mind (I'm not saying this is a good thing!), so I am willing to believe other players

might

behave in a similar way, making the lack of mention of one in NK's post not that much of a big deal

[Marky Mark]

Incidentally, I'm an interesting choice to cherry-pick for "superficial involvement" when you consider much of the plist. You are right tho, I can be somewhat narrative at times, especially when playing catchup

[Marky Mark]

Yeah, scum are trying to mimic scumhunting, so NK!scum calling Vax!whatever out for rolefishing makes sense.

You're right that potentially NK could in that situation be actively looking for third party, although if he was that doesn't necessarily mean he'd say that out loud as specifically mentioning 3rd party rather than generic 'scum' might make people think he was mafia.

A very simple explanation is that scum!NK saw town!Vax doing somthing scummy and thought "aha, easy push opportunity here on a town slot", without really thinking much through the third party angle. As a player with ~6 games experience, that is 100% what I would do there as scum.

I hope that kinda makes sense?

[Marky Mark]

Vaxkiller is either town disrupting town by making all these silly posts ... or scum trying to disrupt town by making these posts. I don't know which yet but they need to stop.
But they might be scum for suggesting a flavor massclaim.

This is the quote in question, to save people having to dig it out

[Marky Mark]

Yeah, scum are trying to mimic scumhunting, so NK!scum calling Vax!whatever out for rolefishing makes sense.

You're right that potentially NK could in that situation be actively looking for third party, although if he was that doesn't necessarily mean he'd say that out loud as specifically mentioning 3rd party rather than generic 'scum' might make people think he was mafia.

A very simple explanation is that scum!NK saw town!Vax doing somthing scummy and thought "aha, easy push opportunity here on a town slot", without really thinking much through the third party angle. As a player with ~6 games experience, that is 100% what I would do there as scum.

I hope that kinda makes sense?

NK15 has been on site for four years and has, glancing at his posted threads list, been in 30 mafia games at a bare minimum (search.php?author_id=30477&sr=topics). I'm pretty sure he's past the stage of scum where he's a deer in the headlights praying for nightfall.

I do think NK15 posted that Vax was scummy for role hunting without considering if he was mafia or third party. And that's because he doesn't care, and that's because he's town.

Now engaging that deeper conversation we were talking about, what do you think Vax's motives are for role hunting? Do you think they're town motives, or scum motives, what do you think his drive is with this?

Ok fair, so I guess NK isn't super new, and may well have an awareness of the 3rd party angle. That makes your interpretation of events more likely for sure, although there are still many reasons that they might have just mentioned 'scum' in the generic sense, such as not wanting to TMI as scum. On balance, I feel like you are still reading too much into this.

Ref Vax, I find it likely that them asking the mod to reveal their flavour is suboptimal play as any alignment, so they probably did it because they thought it would be fun to embrace the flavour aspect of the upick. They were flavour hunting rather than role hunting (I appreciate I have probably said 'role' in previous posts on this when it was actually flavour) and I guess them asking porkens (and Chkflip just before that) was probably just them hamming it up as Zeus and NAI.

[Marky Mark]

I remember Math being very self-assured in Bears, but the way he threatened GreyIce in 515 for pushing stuff that he didn't agree with was not a side of him that I remember from that game.

[Marky Mark]

... continuation from my previous post

I also think that GreyICE is experienced/thick-skinned enough not to be intimidated by a threat like that, and I think that Math would know that as they must have played together a decent bit, so its hard to see his motivation for making the threat, unless it was to play to the crowd.

Like math also refuted Grey's points, which is a fairly normal thing to do if someone is voting you, but I'm just struggling to see where he was going with the whole "You’re going to be fucked." threat

[Marky Mark]

Part of my role is that my flavor is revealed at the start of the game. I had no control over it.

Ah, now this is interesting. Were you pushing chkflip/prokens into flavourclaiming to try and level the playing field then?

[Marky Mark]

@marky Mark

Want a really spicy take?

*waits in anticipation*

[Marky Mark]

... continuation from my previous post

I also think that GreyICE is experienced/thick-skinned enough not to be intimidated by a threat like that, and I think that Math would know that as they must have played together a decent bit, so its hard to see his motivation for making the threat, unless it was to play to the crowd.

Like math also refuted Grey's points, which is a fairly normal thing to do if someone is voting you, but I'm just struggling to see where he was going with the whole "You’re going to be fucked." threat

Nope. Not playing the crowd. I am playing to have certain posts remembered post flip.
Judging by your reaction you will remember.

I mean playing to the crowd doesn't necessarily have to be scum motivated, but yeah I can see your logic here

[Marky Mark]

I was keen to get some direction/energy going in terms of a wagon but NK seems to have vanished off the face of the earth and fidgit is being replaced. Uncrowned has also only had a prodge since Monday, so none of my top SRs are interacting with the game much. Where do we go from here?

[Marky Mark]

Phoneposting but will be on later

We need to start thinking about POEs, both to generate some common ground and also to reignite the discussion.

Fidgets getting replaced, so I'll give that slot the benefit of the doubt to see what the replacement does.

My ideal POE would be uncrowned or NK15 here, but I'd happily take a policy elim on Jake if the consensus was more over that way.

Happy to chat through any and all of the above later when I can type easier

[Marky Mark]

Playing D&D atm over discord but will jump on here after. Skimming, Jake is probably a jester

[Marky Mark]

Playing D&D atm over discord but will jump on here after. Skimming, Jake is probably a jester

Jesters are bastard on MS. Doubt this is a bastard game.

Good info - I wasn't aware of this

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: Jake the Wolfie

Even insinuating ongoing games is eh pretty fucking bad angle.

Is it a scummy angle tho? Like I get a policy vote on jake here for not scumhunting, but I'm not convinced discussing ongoing games is AI

[Marky Mark]

If fidget is replacing out, feels bad to eliminate them today I guess.

Why are we back on uncrowned? Do you guys think uncrowned looks particularly scummy? I think uncrowned looks like another 'town who's convinced they've got it figured out when they don't' to me.

I think if we aren't going to do Fidget my preferred elim for today would be Not Known. The NK/Mark interactions earlier in the thread look pretty bad, I think. Looks like reaching to try to get town to wagon onto someone who had a few votes but might become difficult to vote out later. And the rest of their reads are... pretty ridiculous imo. I guess I'll see where they're at once they finish catching up.

I'm not really SRing jake very hard but I concur with others that if he isn't going to be helpful it would be best to policy-eliminate him early on so he doesn't become an issue later

Yeah agreed, fidgit is scummier than average, but let's wait and see what the replacement has to say.

I've explained how I felt like uncrowned was twisting my words in bad faith earlier and how their lowkey first post felt very different in posting style to their subsequent posts. I also felt like their "I'm not going to interact with you" thing was more likely coming from scum than town, based on previous experience of scum using that technique.

I'd slightly prefer a wagon on NK, but will move to uncrowned if the deadline is looming and that is looking more achievable.

Chkflip is going up in my scum estimations, they've sheeped a fair bit this game and I thought their justification of their jake vote was iffy, as mentioned above

[Marky Mark]

Okay I've got thoughts.

Pray tell?

[Marky Mark]

Night all, hopefully we can collaborate over the weekend and breathe a bit of life back into this game

[Marky Mark]

Okay I've got thoughts.

I reckon saying this w/o follow-up could be a PT-slip

Like Scum not realizing they posted something in thread p and not engaging with it b/c of it.

I feel like scum would just style this out though and make some arbitrary follow up post once they'd realised what they'd done

[Marky Mark]

I was ok with a polciy elim on Jake when it looked like he was just being apathetic, but the last few pages have made it feel like he actively wants to get elimed. I can see scum being apathetic, but not going out of their way to get themselves limmed like Jake has.

Playing into Jake's hands here does not appeal to me.

Can we try to get a wagon on an active SR please? Preferably Not Known/Uncrowned but I'd take chkflip as a compromise.

[Marky Mark]

Uncrowned (1): Flea The Magician
Marky Mark (1): Not Known 15
Jesse Pierce (1): Jake the Wolfie,
Flea The Magician (1): Kop
Jake the Wolfie (4): Mistyx, mathblade, chkflip, grendel
Not Known 15(1): Marky Mark
Kop (1): cassowary
Mathblade (2): Jesse Peirce, GreyICE

Current votes as far as I can see @ just over 2 days out

@People voting Jake - do you actually think he is scum here and think scum would play like this?

[Marky Mark]

I'll join Flea on Uncrowned at the 48 hour mark if there's no interest in NK 15

Let's see some POEs so we can talk this out. I've given you NK15/Uncrowned/Chkflip - if you think this is garbage then call it out but at least lets talk through this

[Marky Mark]

*crickets*

Vax and Uncrowned, can you lay a vote please, so that we can see where consensus lies? A vote and a wider poe would be even better.

We are cutting this pretty fine to find a consensus wagon and go through the claim process, especially given the posting frequency of much of the plist

[Marky Mark]

I'm going to occupied for much of the evening so I'm just going to go ahead and VOTE: Uncrowned now, to start trying to consolidate wagons

[Marky Mark]

Sorry - I've been fairly occupied with IRL stuff for the last 24 hours or so

seeing as flea has moved off uncrowned, let's VOTE: NK 15 to consolidate onto my preferred wagon.

[Marky Mark]

I'm open to consolidating onto Kop if that wagon looks more feasible - the replacement has had a chance to post

I also feel that Jake is probably the dominant wagon atm and while it wouldn't be my top pick, we have ~24h left, so a claim from that slot sooner rather than later might avoid any miscalculations at deadline

[Marky Mark]

No. If he wants to be elimmed then we give it to him. No reason not to as explained before about vengeful.

Please stop torpedoing my townread of yo

It's sounds like you've come 180 on this since posting it, but I'm going off first principles here that if a slot seems to have a clear agenda then we shouldn't just acquiesce to it

Feasible wagons as far as I can see are Jake/Grice/Math/Kop/NK15. I've offered to consolidate onto Kop or Jake if NK15 isn't looking do-able.

[Marky Mark]

I will DM the mod thoughts on game continuation, but more generally I think a small deadline extension would be useful given the amount of inactivity and replacements that we have had d1

[Marky Mark]

Let’s just keep going.

I hope deadline gets extended.

I scumread Jessee Grendel Grey and Kop and there’s more in my PoE.

What do you think of Kop?

I can stay on kop, and I could be convinced to join on jesse, outside of those two I could also support not 15, and chkflip. Jake I guess i support too, im not sure what Math was seeing there.

im opposed to anybody outside of those 5.

Ok, let's try and be ruthless to make this work. I'll lay down the NK15 wagon and VOTE: Kop - can we narrow this to Kop/Jake, as these seem to be the most realistic wagons? I'm uneasy about Jake but will vote there if needed at deadline, as its better than missing an elim alltogether imo

[Marky Mark]

Couldnt find anything that would change my mind on a quick glance. Will do a through read close to deadline - in about 9 hours.

Do you think a wagon on me has a realistic chance of going through at this proximity to deadline?

At best this is NK15 burying their head in the sand, at worst it is actively derailing the town by avoiding working towards a consensus (they are not the only slot doing this, for sure)

[Marky Mark]

If you are not voting someone currently someone called Jake or Kop, please come on board or make a very strong case to the converse. I haven't got my first choice either, but we need to work together here or we are going to miss getting an elim. As a sidenote, I wonder if the mod would considering lowering the % votes needed for an elim at deadline, if that slot is the top wagon, given the inactivity of some slots, eg Uncrowned.

[Marky Mark]

Btw, can I just say a massive thank you to the players in this game who have stayed active and to the mod - you lot are awesome human beings, and this game has still been really enjoyable because you've put the effort in, even given the inactivity/replacements from others :3

I need to go to work now, but will keep an eye on this thread

[Marky Mark]

There's three hours left, so VOTE: Jake

That's 5 votes on him as far as I can see

[Marky Mark]

Flea mate, I'm uneasy about Jake too, but I would take it over a no-elilm, which is the only other realistic possibly at this point

[Marky Mark]

45 mins to deadline with 6 votes on the leading wagon and no realistic alternatives in the timeframe left. If people aren't voting Jake here then you are effectively saying that not eliming is better for the town than eliming Jake.

Maybe that's what you actually think, and if it is that is totally your call, but if you are just voting elsewhere because Jake isn't the gold plated solution then you should seriously consider being pragmatic here and consolidating

[Marky Mark]

Vax it's 30 mins to deadline so your vote on grey has essentially become a vanity wagon.

Would you prefer a compromise vote on Jake or a no elim?

[Marky Mark]

WIM?

[Marky Mark]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: uncrowned

I think there's technically been a hammer on Jake, although I
wouldn't have voted him if I'd known that we would get an extension

[Marky Mark]

Grendel can have some townpoints for actually making an effort to find and deliver a consensus wagon before the deadline. Jesse and Cass can too, to a lesser extent

--pedit, I get you're busy grey - maybe just tell us if you're gonna be occupied so that we're in the loop . If you don't want to be here, nobody would think any the worse of you for replacing out.

[Marky Mark]

Also my last RVS vote was #81

I didn't think it was that late an exit, honestly.

I really wanna see more from Mark and Uncrowned though

... or did uncrowned get replaced...

PEDIT: Love you too grey <3

[My underline above]
*Looks at his own postcount in the activity overview*

*looks at Flea's*

*grimaces awkwardly*




PS - Love you really Flea :3

[Marky Mark]

Marky mark big scum

You're consistent with your predecessor at least Care to explain why?

[Marky Mark]

I don't really care what your alignment is. We're lynching fidget today. It can be with you or over you.

Math, shut the fuck up and vote Fidget. If you're a buddy bus, you know you don't want world war greyice

Of course I'm going to be stubborn. Fidget is literally obvious scum. You can roleplay as Titus, or we can do something useful.

This isn't looking too great in hindsight.

That being said, I still think NK15 is super scummy here so VOTE: NK 15.

For the benefit of those who have just joined us, they pushed me and then tried to back it up with the very damning evidence of me saying 'please' and 'mate'. Go ISO them - it's an entertaining read.

[Marky Mark]

Flea | Math | Grice | Uncrowned were the slots not on the Jake Wagon

From a scum POV, I don't think there's loads of need to vote Jake late D1. There were no other wagons that looked likely to go through, so was a choice between miselim Jake or have no elim from a scum POV.

From a town POV, not eliming is usually bad, so while Jake was a compromise option, I'd be expecting people to be pretty keen to take it over nothing to make sure that an elim went through.

So all of this is to say, that the town slots had more reason to vote Jake late D1 than the scum slots did, as far as I can reason. Ergo, the slots not on the wagon have a good chance of containing at least some scum.

--pedit - I'm glad you can see it too. Ultimately, it was trying to make my posts fit their model of the game rather than vice versa.

[Marky Mark]

Flea | Math | Grice | Uncrowned were the slots not on the Jake Wagon

From a scum POV, I don't think there's loads of need to vote Jake late D1. There were no other wagons that looked likely to go through, so was a choice between miselim Jake or have no elim from a scum POV.

From a town POV, not eliming is usually bad, so while Jake was a compromise option, I'd be expecting people to be pretty keen to take it over nothing to make sure that an elim went through.

So all of this is to say, that the town slots had more reason to vote Jake late D1 than the scum slots did, as far as I can reason. Ergo, the slots not on the wagon have a good chance of containing at least some scum.

--pedit - I'm glad you can see it too. Ultimately, it was trying to make my posts fit their model of the game rather than vice versa.

I agree and probably Grey or Titus then Flea.

But pair one of them with Grendel. Just trust me on this or pretend as a thought experiment.

Why weren't you personally voting Jake as a compromise at the end of D1?

[Marky Mark]

Guys, can we try to keep the double or more posts in a row under control? I get I'm a guilty offender but it makes it really hard to catch up on my lunch break. I know I catch up with multiple posts in a row, but quite a few are not catchups but people posting impulsively and it makes it harder to read.

You've clearly not had the Mafiascum European Player (TM) experience:

*Writes some posts* - barely anyone replies as they're all at work

*Goes to bed* - everyone in the western hemisphere finishes work, gets online and spews content everywah

[Marky Mark]

I mean I'm inclined to believe this on the balance of probability (and the fact that if Math is scum here, they are at best getting 1 for 1).

VOTE: Grendel

I'll flick through the game so far over the next couple of days to see how it reads from a grendel!scum perspective.

@Titus, ref NK15 - just check their ISO, it's not long.

Night all

[Marky Mark]

Probs worth getting the mod to confirm that they would give a 'No result' in the hypothetical scenario of a Loyal Motion Detector targeting scum to make sure that the result has been given out correctly btw (ie they've spotted the nuance between No Result and No Motion). After the whole fiasco in Bears, I've learned that mods are human beings too, and not infallible (although GE is a top lad for sure ).

[Marky Mark]

Hey just a quick note from me to say that I've been pretty maxed out with work today and have existing plans to spend time with my partner tonight. Normal service will resume tomorrow - sorry for not being super involved so far on d2

[Marky Mark]

Ok, so presumably if Grendel was a passive killing PR he'd be something like a PGO
1.) Why wouldn't they follow the standard wiki strat of declaring D1 rather than risking killing a townie
2.) Let's see some crumb to back this up

[Marky Mark]

I mean the anguish in reaction to Math's guilty seemed fairly believable, but I just don't see how Grendel's actions/crumbing fits with the sort of role he is claiming to have

[Marky Mark]

NK15 has vanished off the face of the earth as far as I can tell, but still has a decent chance of being scum.

As for Flea's funky powers, I'm pretty intrigued now, NGL.

[Marky Mark]

I think the second death N1 has got to be the primary clue to unravel at this point in time. The post restriction stuff on chkflip is also a good find, but we ought to be able to get a decent way today by reasoning about the excess death last night

[Marky Mark]

I think the second death N1 has got to be the primary clue to unravel at this point in time. The post restriction stuff on chkflip is also a good find, but we ought to be able to get a decent way today by reasoning about the excess death last night

[Marky Mark]

I'm wondering about the excess death last night as well. I want to say the Kop kill was town-motivated, because IIRC Fidget/Kop were fairly widely suspected, and Fidget might very well have been eliminated had she not swapped out. I wonder if it's the consequence of an overzealous townie who thought they'd spotted scum early on. Just seems like a weird choice for a scum-motivated kill, since I feel like scum would have wanted to push Kop as a suspect day 2.

Preach. Kop seems like a fairly reasonable vig target to me n1. That explanation feels more likely than Grendel not mentioning his killer passive ability and then kop deciding to visit him to try and deathblock him or similar and dying.

[Marky Mark]

I'm actually a vig with a modifier that scum could exploit. Hence why I was coy about full claiming.

But yes kop was my kill. It was a combination of finding fidget scummy, and their sub in being a lurker at EoD. I felt like even if they were town at least it was a non-contributive town instead of an active poster

Crumbs please?

[Marky Mark]

I... see where you're coming from but I feel like there's no scenario where we don't end up needing to eliminate grendel at some point.

I'm wondering what's the cost/benefit on "give him a chance and vote him out tomorrow if he doesn't follow through".

I mean in the worst case scenario grendel is scum vig and offs another townie tonight, them we kill him tomorrow? Do the numbers on that look even remotely favorable for town to the extent that it's worth it to risk that scenario?

I guess worst worst case scenario is that grendel is a scum vig and he shoots grey or titus or someone tonight at your urging, he goes "oh oops guess we were wrong" but manages to pass himself off as townie. I kinda think in that scenario we have to eliminate him no matter what, so we might as well get it over with today. Not convinced it's worth it to let him live. Sorry grendel :'( but I'm open to being convinced otherwise, I guess.

I agree the cost/benefit analysis is worth thinking through. I also think that this all paints math as pretty town as why would you fake a guilty to then be open to letting someone off the hook.

Replacing inactive players like NK15 will help as a lot of the player posting regularly feel like townbloc to me.

[Marky Mark]

I'll be the first to say that I am not as experienced with PR mechanics/optimal play as many of you, but it seems weird not to crumb the intended target in some way as a vig prior to the night phase, even if not the role itself for exactly the reasons that we have run into.

[Marky Mark]

I guess someone has to have made the second kill. Scum vig is possible, although an uncommon role. SK also possible, but unlikely given mistyx's possible info/role, so some sort of town killing role feels v possible (also, why would scum kill fidget/kop when its an easy miselim for them to make)

The silence from such a role CCing makes me think there's a decent chance that grendel!scum here.

[Marky Mark]

Joined in 2014, played a couple of games, came back late 2020 due to covid limiting my pastime choices

It seems like logical thing to me to do, so.that after the event you can semi prove you are who you say you are, but I accept that I could be wrong

Phoneposting

[Marky Mark]

I think a lack of CC would make Grendel a vig.

It's evidence towards it. It could just be that grendel is scum and there's no town vig in the setup, but then where does the extra kill come from?

[Marky Mark]

I think a lack of CC would make Grendel a vig.

It's evidence towards it. It could just be that grendel is scum and there's no town vig in the setup, but then where does the extra kill come from?

From Grendel. Which would make him more than likely not a town vig rather than a scum one.

It could be possible this is to out the vig.

But if vig then claims then we have in essence two elims today. One hits scum Grendel then vig shot hits another person tonight.

That's what I was trying to say.

[Marky Mark]

GreyICE leans town

What are you seeing to townread them? I wasn't the biggest fan of fidget/kop but grice pushed them super hard d1, which looks bad post flip.

If Jesse is town here then playing to their wincon means stepping it up or replacing out. I wouldn't vote them tho over NK15 right now, if I was going to vote outside of grendel.

[Marky Mark]

Ok

UNVOTE:

I can see the logic that no other explanation for the extra kill makes town!grendel believeable. Maybe I am overthinking the lack of crumbs.

VOTE: NK15 - you were scummy before, and your continued lurking isn't changing that

Titus also gets a cheeky FOS for magically losing their predecessors post restriction.

[Marky Mark]

tbf I'd be equally happy with voting nk15 or titus here

[Marky Mark]

jessie/Gray/Titus as the team

Thoughts?

I am less sold on grey being scum than I was before - their recent posts have been ++ town. Titus/Jessie/<1 of NK15 | Dannfloor> is where my head is at rn

[Marky Mark]

Hey mod, NK15 is pretty fucking flaked/prodbait here. He hasn't posted on this site since February 16th. I'm sure you're eager to run off to the replacement thread because this game's replacement rate is ulcer inducing, but... it's been a bit

+1

[Marky Mark]

Misty is almost certainly mechanically town here.
Unless you think a scum would announce “I have two buddies” backing off is good imho.

I don't quite follow sorry?

I TR misty for their posts, but what is to stop them eg being SK here?

[Marky Mark]

Also, we don't know for sure that this is full role madness. Still a fair few unclaimed slots out there

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: Titus

I'm going to vote for someone who will actually respond, seeing as 2 of my top scumreads barely seem to be playing the game.

[Marky Mark]

Fwiw, I will see any attempt to elim today before coming up with a coherent plan to try and use Grendel's claimed vig tonight to clear him as both a quickhammer and scumclaim

[Marky Mark]

I'm probs not going to be on much now until sunday evening

[Marky Mark]

If you holster there’s no difference between that and elimming you.

The benefit it would give us would be seeing if there was still 2x kills tonight

without

grendel claiming to have killed anyone. If there is still 2x kills then grendel is v likely lying about being a vig, if there is only 1x kill then it corroborates grendel's claim

So either way, we would be able to make a substantially more informed decision about whether to elim grendel tomorrow

[Marky Mark]

I'm VT/no power btw as a category, although I have a moderate amount of suspicion that I may have a passive trait that I'm unaware of based on the flavour of my role pm (not sure if that is too bastard for this, but would make sense given my flavour)

[Marky Mark]

To clarify ^ - there is a specific passive trait that I think I might have based on my flavour

[Marky Mark]

If you holster there’s no difference between that and elimming you.

The benefit it would give us would be seeing if there was still 2x kills tonight

without

grendel claiming to have killed anyone. If there is still 2x kills then grendel is v likely lying about being a vig, if there is only 1x kill then it corroborates grendel's claim

So either way, we would be able to make a substantially more informed decision about whether to elim grendel tomorrow

isn't the logic that grendel might be scum vig though

Others had suggested that a scum vig was v unlikely based on its rarity in the site meta. I haven't played enough games to know how frequent they are (I've never run into one)

[Marky Mark]

@Math - have you managed to fathom anything useful from the mass semi-claim?

[Marky Mark]

Checked the queue a short while ago and no replacement signup posted there yet for NK 15. Jesse is prodging and Titus is MIA with personal stuff. It really feels like we are playing with our hands tied behind our back here when its almost impossible to get any meaningful interaction with the top-SR slots.

[Marky Mark]

@Math - have you managed to fathom anything useful from the mass semi-claim?

I have a hunch but kinda need lurky butts to confirm it.

@Mod: Any other news about replacements/prods?

I think gamma is having some IRL issues too :/

I'm sorry if I came across as insensitive last night, and I appreciate that IRL stuff happens to people.

A lot of you have put so much effort into this, and it just feels sad that our core ability to play the game and hunt scum is being heavily impacted by the lack of activity from some areas.

Do you think it's worth PMing the replacement mod and/or list mod to see if we can expedite replacements and/or get a deadline extension given that Gamma may be busy IRL?

[Marky Mark]

For those of you who have been active throughout or replaced in and engaged with the game - I love you guys and people like you make forum mafia worth playing :3

It's just a shame there's been so much inactivity from some areas this game - perhaps we need to just start flipping slots like Titus/Jesse/NK15 regardless if replacement before deadline is not looking likely.

[Marky Mark]

I still stand by the fact that if Grendel doesn't shoot tonight then the number of bodies ought to give us significantly more info to sort his slot with and it puts scum in the awkward position of having to decide whether to kill him or not if he is a town vig.

I get why math wants to lim him but if scum have RB then math seems like an obvious target given his dog softing yesterday (tracker would've been a reasonable guess for role based on the flavour). Maybe misty could confim him tonight?

Titus to me just feels like the right elim here - both through the whole post restriction thing and the play from her predecessor. I'd take Jesse or NK15 as a compromise tho.

[Marky Mark]

I've DMed the backup mod - hopefully they can step in and/or Gamma will remerge like Gandalf the White and kick this game back on course.

[Marky Mark]

As far as I can see its

Grendel/Dan/Me/Flea on Titus
Cass/Math on Grendel

Where do others stand atm?

Also keen to hear back from Math re my recent logic why we could learn a lot from asking Grendel not to shoot tonight and whether he thinks my logic makes sense.

[Marky Mark]

i don't think the post restriction thing is explicitly ai, for what it's worth

i've had very little motivation to play because nothing's really been happening

Ok, lets's look at where your suspicion lies right now. I've explained why I think Titus is the superior wagon over Grendel here - do you agree with me or are you on a different page?

@Math I get wanting to wait for NK 15 and Jesse but you may be there a while

[Marky Mark]

@Flea, I'm reading between the lines that your role interacts with mine in some way but it would be antitown to tell me?

[Marky Mark]

Incidentally @Misty how is faking a post restriction NAI? What reason could a town player have for doing it?

[Marky Mark]

I don't re-read

somebody gimme the cliff notes summary

MB do me a solid plz

"Deadline" lynch of newbtownie roleblocker (don't ask, mod fuckery)
Math has claimed Loyal Motion Detector with a 'no result' on Grendel
Grendel has claimed vig
We're now doing a hypnoclaim or sth, it's dumb

All of this + 2 kills last night

[Marky Mark]

Im at a point where i dont know what correct play is for me here and am just hanging out to see what consensus thinks i should do/ what should be done.

This just feels like survivalism on the part of scum. He's trying not to offend people so they leash him.

We remove threats to town. Math got a guilty result.

This isn't rocket science.

This is a borderline misrep. There was an additional kill last night and grendel has claimed vig. Nobody else has overtly claimed a role with the ability to kill.

[Marky Mark]

It is very possible that I am missing something here but for the poeple who want to vote grendel, how do you explain the second kill N1? The most feasible explanation I could think of if grendel!scum is that we have an SK, but that would mean misty must be mafia, and she has looked pretty town to me all game.

[Marky Mark]

@Titus - mistyx has said that the setup is 8v3 due to night action info they have. me!sk is possible fypov I guess if misty is scum, but that's the only possible scenario

Or they just shoot him

A CC here is dumb

If there actually is a town vig then sure, let's elim away from grendel and they could just shoot him tonight. I suspect that we are not in a CC situation, but simply that there are no other kililing roles within the town full stop.

[Marky Mark]

Would revealing your night action help us sort Grendel Titus?

[Marky Mark]

btw thanks for replacing in, and same to you pooky

[Marky Mark]

It is very possible that I am missing something here but for the poeple who want to vote grendel, how do you explain the second kill N1? The most feasible explanation I could think of if grendel!scum is that we have an SK, but that would mean misty must be mafia, and she has looked pretty town to me all game.

See where I am at is two fold:

If Grendel is scum like my loyal check would seem to indicate then Misty is probably lock town
If Grendel is SK then Misty is conf scum for lying and the more she says “It’s vague” to what question did you ask the moderator the more sus I am of her Oracle claim, and this might be the world we’re in where Misty guessed a vig.
If Grendel is town then Misty is lock town and one or more of GreyICE/you/someone hood with crumbs is dead

Me conf + Misty conf + narrowing scum pool is hard to pass up if wrong but I think I am right.

I agree the payoff is massive if Grendel is either SK or scum here. I just think this is unlikely due to the lack of explanation for the second kill and misty being very towny, which mitigates the high reward.
The payoff on locktowning you/misty isn't massive as I am TRing both of you fairly hard, and so are most of the plist

Grendel scum doesn't explain the 2nd death still so realistically comes down (as far as I can see) to either:
grendel!SK, misty!scum
or
grendel/misty both town and you were RBed or similar by scum

[Marky Mark]

Yeah I mean you are more experienced than me with role likelihood but multiple players have said scum vig is pretty rare. Would also be giving scum 2 NKs which seems like a lot if town have no killing roles

[Marky Mark]

Night all

[Marky Mark]

Yeah let's not vote slots actively being replaced. Doesn't really achieve pressure and I'd want to hear what they have to say first anyway seeing as math seems to think he can make useful deductions from the claim

[Marky Mark]

Ah wait ignore my previous its been a long day. I've just twigged that pookie IS jessie

[Marky Mark]

nah wait, he's not. He's NK15.

[Marky Mark]

To summarise my train of thought live in the thread, voting jesse slot here doesn't achieve loads

VOTE: Pookie is better here for what you lot are trying to achieve. Let's have their category claim.

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: Unvote

Preventing quick hammers

Also, a quick hammer doesn't feel super likely to happen here and would be a borderline scum claim, so I'm wondering how much an experienced player like you actually believes this

[Marky Mark]

I'm still yet to hear an argument that would convince me that grendel could have more than a tiny chance of being the mafia faction. SK is more believable, but I'm just TRing mistyx too hard for that theory to seem plausible to me

[Marky Mark]

Outside hero call here that math is scum. Blocked loyal X ought not to be too hard to fake and the push on jesse while the slot is vacant feels opportunistic. Nothing esp useful has come out of the semi-claim yet either, as far as I can see

[Marky Mark]

sup pookie, let's have your category claim pls

[Marky Mark]

Interesting. Where do you sit on the whole grendel situation? Do you think he is caught scum/SK from Math's loyal targetting or do you think he is legit town vig and math was either RBed or is himself scum?

[Marky Mark]

Math claims he is loyal motion detector, targetted Grendel and got No Result
Misty claims some sort of informed/oracle role that learned that setup is 8v3 last night
Grendel claims he is town vig and shot fidgit/kop slot last night.
Two people died last night
Nobody else has claimed any sort of killing role/passive

[Marky Mark]

so no result means grendel is scum?

That is one explanation, and one to which several of the plist seem to subscribe

--pedit yeah flea beat me to it. If you put to the side the possibility that math could be scum faking a guilty, then the argument comes to was math blocked/redirected or is grendel just scum

[Marky Mark]

night all, take care

[Marky Mark]

Like in theory MistyX clears him from being an SK so if we suspect SK we should lynch MistyX first

Just reading up from overnight and Grey is dropping some serious truth

[Marky Mark]

I agree the elim is between Dann and Grendel.

Lolwat - I've seen this sort of thing before as a classic scum ruse to create an artificial either/or lim pool

[Marky Mark]

So to summarize:

Alignment Chart
	MistyX-Town	MistyX-Mafia	MistyX-3rd party
Grendel-Town	Multiple vigs	Mafia tried to save a townie?	????????
Grendel-Scum	Scum-Vig	Scum vig+Gambit?	????????
Grendel-SK	Impossible	Scum trying to save SK?!?	It's one of those games

Pls take all my townpoints

[Marky Mark]

KISS

Non loyal targeting
A counterclaim

Let's conveniently overlook the otherwise unexplained second death and 8v3 info from misty that makes that less likely to be SK.

[Marky Mark]

Got as far as Pg 57 but really ought to head in to the office. More later on. Grey looking VERY town. Cass looking less town than before. Titus looking scummy. Grendel's modifier makes sense in line with his flavour.

[Marky Mark]

Votecount is incorrect, I am voting Pookie. I am down for a Titus elim though and think it is worthwhile her claiming last night's action.

No elims until we have a jesse replacement and partial claim from them pls - that ought to help with setup spec

[Marky Mark]

As previously explained, my role PM is No Power category, but reading between the lines between that and my flavor it *hints* that I may have a certain reasonably negative passive modifier that I am not told about. Just mentioning it in case it helps with thinking through the setup.

[Marky Mark]

I've been thinking about the whole grendel situation more and I'm wondering if I've been too narrow minded in terms of thinking the only way grendel could be mafia faction would be as a scum vig. Something like PGO (anyone targetting him dies) could make sense and might explain something along the lines of Kop targetting him n1.

I still am not sold on him as scum and I think there's a reasonable chance scum would block math (if they have a blocker) after he softed tracker d1, BUT I do think the PGO theory holds more weight than any of the theories we've had so far

[Marky Mark]

I'm a little confused how pooky has 18k posts but was asking basic mech questions eg what a loyal motion detector was

[Marky Mark]

So on face value I'm seeing pooky as scum here and the hammer on Titus was because her elim was looking fairly inevitable

[Marky Mark]

BUT I think GRICE is pretty town so I'm gonna wait to see what people have to say wrt night actions.

[Marky Mark]

Titus was trying v hard to get the grendel lim through, so I think its reasonable to conclude that there's a very good chance that Grendel isn't the mafia faction, and that others pushing grendel d2 have a greater than average chance of being scum

[Marky Mark]

If not pooky because GRICE has some way to clear him then I reckon last scum is in Danfloor/Cassoway

Let's start with VOTE: Cass and go from there. They were starting to look pretty opportunistic late D2

--pedit, what's the reason for sorting into pairs GRICE?

I also wouldn't be against a full claim today if it helps us squeeze out the last scum through setup spec

[Marky Mark]

I mean I can google chrono triggers later or you can just tell me

I will claim whenever majority of plist deem it wise, but am keen to hear from pooky/cass first. I've crumbed my flavour, so can back up what I reveal

[Marky Mark]

So I guess right now, my scumhunting comes down to two questions

Who was pushing the Grendel lim D2?
Whose role does not make sense in the setup as town?

The answer to the first is Pooky/Cass off the top of my head (Flea voted Grendel for a time too, but not with the same focus).

The answer to the second I am not so sure of - I've not played many games and most that I have played have been normals, so setup balance in role madness is not my strong area


--pedit @grice ntoed, let me have a think ref this. Obvs I'm, not keen to be limmed, but if we can break the setup to conf win then ofc I support that

[Marky Mark]

@Grice ref your strat, I don't think its unreasonable to expect the third scum to have a PR of some sort, so relying on a strat that could run to the last 3 could be risky if the scum eg have some way of blocking/redirecting vig shots or tracks