Baton Pass [Game Over!]

[Celestial Coordinates]

Your other two scumreads were pretty good, you should focus on those instead of SS

[Celestial Coordinates]

either I have correct reads or I'm scum

its okay when you say it, we know your issues
other people, no.

SS has used the same approach to my slot/reads before many different times.

[Celestial Coordinates]

add stupid nonsensical reads to the reasons i scumread you then

They're not reads.

And also, once again, why would I be more likely to act this way as scum, given that I'm clearly cognizant of the fact that I just said I townread Cephrir and then said I want to lynch him?

This isn't about you at all, he's trying to essentially bully you into not going down a line of play that recognizes my reads as inherently valuable.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Neat

VOTE: Gay Dance

These are my flirting eyes

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

I've considered them as scum and I think them!scum gamestate is best solved without lynching Gay Dance at all.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Ohh I get it.

For some reason I thought you were voting them for scum.

What I meant was that I had considered them being scum but I thought it would essentially resolve itself, but it's a terrible answer.

Do you think that we're scum or do you just want to see me dead so you don't have to try to read me anymore

[Celestial Coordinates]

I think it's obvious that anything I do isn't going to matter until people start flipping so I honestly don't really care either way atm

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

If you have reads, I'm listening. But in the end i'm pretty sure splitting the votes only favors scum.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I think it's obvious that anything I do isn't going to matter until people start flipping so I honestly don't really care either way atm

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

If you have reads, I'm listening. But in the end i'm pretty sure splitting the votes only favors scum.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I think this gamestate will only get better if nacho gets more involved

Your obsession with Nacho is as strange as Shoshin's obsession with Cephrir.

Kinda think it's two sides of the same coin and both of you are targeting a player to buddy up to.

[Celestial Coordinates]

At some point I'm just going to give up on this game as well and then scum are going to have carte blanche to lynch whoever they want.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Imagine splitting in 3-lynches-per-day

We have 3 lynches and I can't get people to listen to me on one.

[Celestial Coordinates]

eh

it's better this way.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I still think that if she were town she'd be trying to change my read on her and sort my push on her as opposed to doing what she's doing, which is effectively playing the crowd.
On a related note, I think that due to said playing the crowd it will be essentially impossible to lynch her.

As of right now I'd suggest doing something like Gameplay/Wisdom.

[Celestial Coordinates]

It should be really obvious that she's trying to keep me at arms length and that's part of a long pattern of players in the game trying to push me away and keep me off balance.
It's making it very difficult for me to enjoy or engage with the game and I don't think that it's accidental; I know some townies in this game who do that as a matter of course but.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Instead, I'd suggest that if either of us lives to 3p LyLo we should die there instantly.

@nacho thanks for the positivity.

i am starting to get towards wisdom-town, which makes me want to baton him. (oo look at my scary anti-CC scum agenda)

that's unfortunate. if you townread Shoshin you should put more than a little faith in her read there.

[Celestial Coordinates]

As of right now I'd suggest doing something like Gameplay/Wisdom.

I think it's somewhat absurd that RC calls me scum while basically sheeping my reads.

Gameplay was my read first and Wisdom has been scummy.
I also don't think that's absurd at all. What

should

I be doing, that's not that?

[Celestial Coordinates]

UNVOTE:
Please explain this progression to me

It's burden of proficiency on me. It has long been espoused as the best way to read me, besides reading my hydra partners. I believe they already explained it.

[Celestial Coordinates]

BoP isn't the best way to read RC, and town RC would never be okay with saying that.

never

? I don't care about my winrate in hydra games. I am perfectly fine going for a high percentage play that isn't the absolute highest percentage play.

When did Wisdom become scummy to you, RC?

When he started calling me locktown in a way that feels really fake trumped up and like he's trying to tie himself to me using extra words.

[Celestial Coordinates]

This feels like something you got from me.

Did you say this?

[Celestial Coordinates]

Nope, you definitely didn't say that. Why did you think that I got it from you?

[Celestial Coordinates]

rc is town guys. Theres no reason to doubt that.

Why do you think RC's town?

You prodded him about the same set of posts.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I can't imagine Wisdom as town actually saying "there is no reason to doubt that." Sounds like it's screw with people later and scum are clearly doing something weird wrt me so.

I wrote almost exactly what you said.

Not sure how to respond to this. I also feel like town you would have 100% anticipated my reaction to your unvote on me and the posts and words that you used.

What's your read on SS, RC?

Town but not cleared.

[Celestial Coordinates]

i don't want to say something lame like "i can always see where he's coming from" so i'll just say i felt town motivation between where i stopped reading last night and now

I think scum rarely take positions where you can't always see where they're coming from.

[Celestial Coordinates]

i object to this because of 1057.

you're putting him on a pedestal even though you just said you don't like that.

There's a difference between worshipping and keeping a player's performance as different alignments in context.
I don't worship NSG but I am very slow to oppose a lynch that she feels strongly about.
I don't think all players and all reads are created equal and I find it difficult to believe that you think that they should be treated equally.

Your flip on Wisdom gives me a sense that you're trying to find enough common ground with me to make it unlikely I push your lynch, RC. Like, why didn't you agree with me about Wisdom when I first engaged you? Why'd you just brush me off? His play wasn't any better at the start of the game.

Because I didn't have a read there? What am I supposed to say if I do not have a read there? I got a read because he did scummy stuff.
I never opposed the wagon, I never townread him, I simply didn't have a read one way or another.

This is untrue, in MG his strong scumread, LE, flipped town, we were town that game.

That's out of context with the fact that I had a correct gamestate read (0 scum on the wagon) and every single one of the four scum was in my bottom 6 players.

[Celestial Coordinates]

RC's accuracy is closer to 50% than 100%. It's still far above average, but you can't just BoP him hoping to get lucky.

No one is 100%. It's actually about 60%. I haven't done the math in a while.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I'm concerned about SS blindly sheeping. Why do you townread this, RC?

I know for a fact that this is how he approaches games when he's town and I also am very confident in my ability to catch him as scum, see NSG's game.

[Celestial Coordinates]

People actually "worshipping" me is a myth, I wasn't given respect without earning it.

Link? My impression in undertale was that he's more of an independent thinker.

This is specifically wrt my slots.

[Celestial Coordinates]

then doesn't call me scum when I'm scum.

this is untrue and you know it to be untrue so I'm not sure why you're saying this.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Well, okay. In the last game, you called me scum. But then you called me town. Strong town. And you never revised the read before I killed you.

I literally said I was going to stop giving a read on you because everyone was shitting on me for it and then I just placed a read without having to think about it.
I don't think that you can genuinely believe that I did not scumread you that entire game.

[Celestial Coordinates]

You know that when I'm getting shit on all game and called anti-town and a number of bad stuff because I tried to correctly lynch scum it feelsbad and tilts me.
This game is also tilting me for fairly similar reasons in terms of more than half of the game reminding everyone not to worship me and calling anyone who gives me even the slightest consideration out.

I genuinely thought you townread me after a certain point on D1. Yes, you scumread me early. But you do that in literally every game, so I don't take it seriously.

This is not an accurate representation of my history reading you.

[Celestial Coordinates]

This is not an accurate representation of my history reading you.

Can you name a single game where you didn't scumread me early on?

Sure! Literally our last game

Oh wait I did push on you but I think even at the time I immediately stated that it was a reaction test, that I felt bad about it, and that I didn't want to go down that road.

[Celestial Coordinates]

i think that he's saying that its yuk

[Celestial Coordinates]

Otoh I think I went way out of my way to try to keep you engaged in a good way in that game, so.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I think RC's alignment will be clear before the end of this day.

can't misread me if I'm flipped

[Celestial Coordinates]

can't read my push on you if I don't have the mental energy to sustain my push.

[Celestial Coordinates]

can't read my push on you if I don't have the mental energy to sustain my push.

Lack of mental energy to sustain the push is a town tell for you. The only one so far.

says the person who doesn't know any of my towntells?

[Celestial Coordinates]

gameplay is pretty much outed atp I think?

also heavily scumreading Cephrir townreading two slots that I think are scummy and transparently so but that goes away if my reads are wrong I guess

[Celestial Coordinates]

CC how confident are you still in ceph and shoshin being s-s

i was always more interested in seeing reactions to it than i was committed to either read but i did scumread both individually at the time.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Cephrir read has gotten worse, Shoshin read is undecided.

[Celestial Coordinates]

My brain is really weird and messed up and it's hard to put out reads in terms of chronological thought in the sense that you want to hear them.
I think I latched onto Cephrir/Shoshin for a reason and I would say that >90% of the time at least one of them is scum and I'll stand by that.
But I'm not feeling or seeing whatever I saw at the time that made me lead there. I still see the case for Cephrir individually that I was underplaying for not so good reasons.

what does this even mean
what does ceph flipping town tell you?

I only have his reputation to go on. Do you think Cephrir is a strong enough town player that him continually having wrong reads is in and of itself worth lynching him for?

[Celestial Coordinates]

Also, yukyukz is surface level scummy but I feel very strongly that they are town in spite of that for reasons.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I was trying to tell GDGW that he couldn't base a solid logical argument off of assumptions like the one above. I don't particularly CARE if you're townreading RC right now as far as this post is concerned, I want people to not take RC is town as a fact and then try to base a logical argument off of it based on a day 1 town read on Nancy who hasn't done anything particularly towny at all.

You cannot sort me effectively without showing me good faith and working with me as if I'm town and testing the results of that. can't be done.

[Celestial Coordinates]

One of the biggest reasons that I scumread Wisdom actually is that he keeps putting rule of 3s with like Yukyukz/SS/Gameplay then he had a second one which I forget but it also had one of yukyukz/SS and he has gone to great lengths casing everyone in all the rules of 3 except the one that I actually scumread, ie gameplay.

Have you made this case?

I have not and I actually don't want to see you lynched today regardless.

[Celestial Coordinates]

As I said I'm skipping two steps ahead on a lot of my reads, assuming that some of my scumreads are correct, and generating new scumreads based on those flips.
My case on you is based on a lot of pre-flip logic that I'm reasonably comfortable in but that I would rather flip the people who are just scummy as individuals as opposed to the ones who look bad if they are in fact scum.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Outside of pre-flip it's two things which I think have other explanations as I said

1) your reaction to people wanting to flip

wisdom

was weird, can't say it's never a culture thing either though.
2) you reacted to the scumread on you with a lot of AtE. not sure what it means either. certainly not what i expected but otoh my expectations could just as easily be the problem.

[Celestial Coordinates]

1) your reaction to people wanting to flip wisdom was weird, can't say it's never a culture thing either though.

wisdom is among the strongest assets to town in this game

i beg to differ and i don't want to actually have the argument past that so let's leave it at that.

[Celestial Coordinates]

but in this case I'm less arguing with it being wisdom specifically and more that you seemed to overreact to people having reads at a specific point in the game, which again maybe culture, maybe it's a scumbuddy thing.

[Celestial Coordinates]

weak

entrance by pm but i still don't necessarily scumread it like I do gameplay.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Gameplay was a universal townread like 10 pages into Magical Girls by the way, to give some context to why we're scumreading him here.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I think even 'a universal townread' doesn't do it justice, he was the single person I think everyone agreed was 100% town the entire game from super early on.

[Celestial Coordinates]

(except Titus)

[Celestial Coordinates]

Ye ok good
Honestly from what we've had so far I have more negative then positive reads atm
It might be that the other large theme magical girls was pretty jokish for the first 10-15 pages or so but SS, wisdom and SH posts just seem a little out of place
Esp SS and his questions which just seem like overdoing it a bit

don't think this comes from town more than a very small percentage of the time.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I think giving the baton to Shoshin is a joke except it's not at all a funny one.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I think giving the baton to Shoshin is a joke except it's not at all a funny one.

Why? She has just as high a town winrate as you and the downsides are significantly less.

1) her town winrate is a good bit lower than mine
2) the question isn't that, the question is about is she town and is she likely to get killed and I think she's never a nightkill and i'm not sure if she's town.

Cici you get three kills before night, pragmatically you should not be super upset if you don’t get baton.

I find the idea of Shoshin specifically getting it somewhat offensive to my sensibilities and I'd rather it go to Nacho if it's not going to me.

[Celestial Coordinates]

also without exception in the games me and shoshin have both been town in my reads have been superior and not by a small margin.
but this isn't really the argument we're having because the question is is she town and I don't know that she is.

there's enough people to make the 5 universal townread pool that she doesn't have to be in it and I'd prefer she be lynched if she lives to 3 way and I'd rather not exclude her from shot contention.

@Nacho I literally made none of those posts and you're scum for misrepping me

[Celestial Coordinates]

like it's not a big deal since i'm already fairly certain i will not get the baton and i'm fairly certain we're going to die since we don't
but that specific vote irritates me.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I think the only people in this lobby who would even consider a Shoshin shot are also people who wouldn't take that shot because it points towards them.
Her chances of being the nightkill are somewhere between 0 and 5%. It's an objectively bad choice.

At least I might get underestimated by certain scumteam compositions that would then go for Nacho or someone instead.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Like, anyone who would know enough about the current meta to shoot Shoshin would know better than to not shoot me.

hey guys

only took me 60 pages to figure out that GDGW= Gay Dance Gone Wrong!!!

good job!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Celestial Coordinates]

I think Shoshin has intentionally restrained herself as scum to keep space for her town meta and if this is her last game for a long time I think that she will do essentially anything to win it.
I acknowledge that others are townreading the trust-telly stuff but I don't see it as particularly trust telly because I don't think it's actually true that she wouldn't be doing this as scum.

[Celestial Coordinates]

This is really hard to do justice to because most of it is based off of conversations I've had with Shoshin external to mafia in general but I think that her scumplay limits have always far exceeded what she was willing to put into a game, even in the last game which became her first win, because of how it would effect her town play. I think that this being her last game bets are all off and she'd 100% play way beyond her prior games as scum.

Does this in and of itself make her scum? No. I'm not 100% sure either way right now. I think that just saying that we should lynch her if she's alive to 3 way without having won is a pretty good sol'n to this issue.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Shoshin scum definitely does not post the ultimatum that she did. Plus she is very much playing to her town meta of not lurking. NSG is a player with the same type of meta. Transparently scum by activity alone.

This is a really bad way to read NSG, she can pump out postcount if she wants to and sometimes lurks as town but there's a ton of stuff that she can't do.
I think that you're badly oversimplifying Shoshin.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Shoshin scum definitely does not post the ultimatum that she did.

I don't think you have an accurate picture of what her actual scum limits are.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I don't actually feel like outing the spicy slot that I'm worried about

[Celestial Coordinates]

[Celestial Coordinates]

oof

rekt

[Celestial Coordinates]

oof

rekt

[Celestial Coordinates]

nacho what are your thoughts on wisdom as the second baton pass kill?

[Celestial Coordinates]

you're just a prankster

[Celestial Coordinates]

nacho what are your thoughts on wisdom as the second baton pass kill?

Who is the first baton kill?

gameplay605

[Celestial Coordinates]

Ye ok good
Honestly from what we've had so far I have more negative then positive reads atm
It might be that the other large theme magical girls was pretty jokish for the first 10-15 pages or so but SS, wisdom and SH posts just seem a little out of place
Esp SS and his questions which just seem like overdoing it a bit

What would you have expected it to be based on, if not random?

is rvs ever random

I mean, it's usually arbitrary, which is very similar.

I'm ready to hammer.

Oh?

What I'm talking about @SS
It just seems like you are trying to comment on something without being actually too engaged into what it is

VOTE: SS

I doubt they're serious votes?

find it extremely difficult to believe these are posts coming from town.

[Celestial Coordinates]

If we're baton passing me I can do substitutes but I really want to see wisdom's flip before I die.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Sakura what if I promised you that I was town and not scum?

[Celestial Coordinates]

Cici you get three kills before night, pragmatically you should not be super upset if you don’t get baton.

This is actually a good point.

I mean, I can still want the baton. I'm also unlikely to actually get more than a few of those lynches in practice in this lobby.

That said, at the start of the game I wasn't pushing for the baton, I'm moreso pushing for it because ND is V/LA this weekend and I want her to get a chance to play this game which she won't get if we don't get the baton since we'll just be dead by the time she gets back. I don't actually care about the outcome of this game beyond proving what I'm capable of, etc.

didn't you already promise me to roll town before the game finished signups

I would never break a promise to you <3

[Celestial Coordinates]

Also she was V/LA for the entirety of our last game together too which kinda sucked for her and yeah.

[Celestial Coordinates]

It's a good scumread, in my opinion.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Shoshin scum definitely does not post the ultimatum that she did. Plus she is very much playing to her town meta of not lurking. NSG is a player with the same type of meta. Transparently scum by activity alone.

So, how many people do we have with activity tells now? Creature, AH, Shoshin, NSG?
(This isnt me believing what you said btw)

My average postcounts are significantly higher as town than scum. Like, SIGNIFICANTLY. Check it yourself.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Cici what happened to your Cephrir read?

I'm still scumreading Cephrir. I'm advocating for lynching multiple people that he has soft defended and using that as a clue as to his alignment.

[Celestial Coordinates]

My feeling is that we're going to see 1 scum 1 town from these flips and I'm not actually sure which is which. Double scum would be lol

[Celestial Coordinates]

hrm

[Celestial Coordinates]

Cici what happened to your Cephrir read?

I'm still scumreading Cephrir. I'm advocating for lynching multiple people that he has soft defended and using that as a clue as to his alignment.

Why not just go after Ceph himself?

Because I think this lynch order gives town the win before endgame more of the time.

Cephrir is not an endgaming threat.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I think these 2 flips give me a fairly good chance of solving the game outright.

[Celestial Coordinates]

gameplay is still scum

when are you guys figuring s_s and yukzuk are as well?

Your problem is you don't notice anything wrong with Shoshin leading on town and then acquiescing to lynches on scum when pushed by others.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Assuming, of course, that you're town.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Could you break down the thought process behind this. I’m interested from an epistemological standpoint.

I don't have an easy way to break this down in a manner that actually raises rather than hurts towns chances of winning.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Wisdom is in my PoE, is not the first person I would lynch today in general, but I think that his flip tells me a lot about the game regardless especially if I have to give my final set of reads with only these two flips.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Oh that?, I dont get what's the issue either, I TR CC, and... that's it? I dont think I said shoshin had to be scum because of it, im not gonna be held by paranoia on RC or Nancy, if you want to be held up by paranoia that's on you.

I don't know how to explain in more clear terms than I already have. I don't understand how you still manage to misinterpret my post.

Whatever. I give up.

The fact that you want me dead so you don't have to read me isn't a concern for every player in the game in the same way it is for you.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Another way of phrasing: Wisdom is the single most valuable VT flip in the game and also has some scum equity.

Maybe you're misunderstanding mine? idk.

No, you just don't see the logic that they're using as valid because it's not valid. Keep being you please.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Another way of phrasing: Wisdom is the single most valuable VT flip in the game and also has some scum equity.

another way of phrasing is rc always wants to lynch me because he can't read me and theres a non zero possibility i could be scum

This is not the reason

at all

in this case, but I don't deny that I struggle to read you and wouldn't be opposed to killing you in general purely on that basis if I had a good PoE.

[Celestial Coordinates]

Oh tehre's a ceph scumgame to read beautiful

[Celestial Coordinates]

nevermind this meta is not at all useful

[Celestial Coordinates]

Wisdom - we're saving

You dont decide that

cmon we both know nobody actually wants to remove me from a large d1
not even rc does despite appearences

do you want an actual response to this

[Celestial Coordinates]

I have zero problems removing you from the game D1. do you want me to explain why or should I just leave it at that

I dont think i've ever been wrong on Wisdom save Phantom Hourglass for the past few years or so, and im not gonna be wrong now just coz RC scumreads him.
So im gonna put Wisdom back to null and read him myself instead.

ah ah ah they aren't my scumread, they're Shoshins. they're just in my poe and a valuable info flip

[Celestial Coordinates]

Honestly I wouldn't mind a Ceph/Gameplay baton kill and then a day lynch on Wisdom

my plan was actually Gameplay/Wisdom -> Ceph if I thought the flips pointed towards Ceph being scum.

[Celestial Coordinates]

As someone who's played scum against town!RC and town!Shoshin, I will defer that RC had significantly better reads even if he significantly more likely to piss off the entire playerbase.

Here's the thing about RC. He has better reads than me on D1, and I admit this. But on D2, my reads are consistently better than his, and they improve as the game goes on whereas his tend to get worse.

i solved basically all the games we played together on d1 so......

[Celestial Coordinates]

also without exception in the games me and shoshin have both been town in my reads have been superior and not by a small margin.

This is a massive lie. Your reads have not been better than mine except in one game. In others, we have the same reads or yours were worse (e.g. the time you townread NSG when I correctly scumread her).

you're such a fucking liar jesus christ
you know full well i scumread nsg the whole game. you know full well i had to call her town because i'd be lynched otherwise.
i had 3 scumreads outside of NSG and two of them were scum. i had poed 9 fucking players as town. including all the townies you incorrectly scumread, like varsoon.

[Celestial Coordinates]

the only reason i didn't have an 100% correct solve was because reckoner was openly attempting to policy lynch me.
the other game? I literally solved 2 scum on page 5 and I heavily scumread Bitmap the whole game but surprise, YOU thought he was town so I backed off the read.
You also townread Bujaber!

You don't have to be better than me to matter, you know. You can just be Shoshin.

@cc/sho I'm sorry but I dont think anyone cares about this

I really fucking wish I wouldn't have to keep defending my mafia ability but people keep impugning it so I have to respond.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I think the only way to put a stop to RC’s madness is if he wins the Paragon scummy.

regardless of my consistent competence people will simply refuse to give it to me because of who I am and I'm at peace with that.
I think the winners have absolutely deserved it over me in the years I've gotten finalist regardless. I have issues with Elli win but that's kind of more a philosophical thing.

[Celestial Coordinates]

dfg';ol/ajshdvkalih;so
D PVKJLASKEFHVA;VJSDLAKPSDJCV

[Celestial Coordinates]

dfg';ol/ajshdvkalih;so
D PVKJLASKEFHVA;VJSDLAKPSDJCV

[Celestial Coordinates]

I don't want to be a fascinating player from an anthropological point of view I just want to be able to play a game without being policy scumread or having a lengthy debate as to exactly what the quality level of my play is.

[Celestial Coordinates]

The only reason town kept NSG alive forever is because you townread her so strongly after I pushed her on D1. You saying that you scumread her doesn't comport with what you said in the game.

hm

I know nsg is scum but i also feel really bad because she was getting away with 0 posting while i wasn't present so i'm gonna lynch her last

we're done?

[Celestial Coordinates]

We're even on that score, except Irrelephant got mislynched, Varsoon didn't. In that sense, my incorrect read was less harmful than yours.

Except when you townread Irrelephant, what did I do?
Part of my being good is that I know when to listen to people, you know.

[Celestial Coordinates]

We're even on that score, except Irrelephant got mislynched, Varsoon didn't. In that sense, my incorrect read was less harmful than yours.

Except when you townread Irrelephant, what did I do?
Part of my being good is that I know when to listen to people, you know.

Which is why I wrongly listened to you about NSG, because you kept saying you were always right about her. Learned my lesson there, which is not to trust you as much as you think you should be trusted.

hahahahahahahah

you're fucking dumb.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I don't want to be a fascinating player from an anthropological point of view I just want to be able to play a game without being policy scumread or having a lengthy debate as to exactly what the quality level of my play is.

I'm not trying to be mean here but you make the idea that you're the best thing since sliced bread relevant to the game by insisting you have the sole power to lynch players and everyone should obey you

Error: citation needed.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I think Shoshin's argument against me is inherently intellectually dishonest. Whether it comes from her ego, her being scum, or bad memory is immaterial at present.

so yuk then?

I think that Yuk is town and I feel reasonably strongly about this.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I don't actually feel like outing the spicy slot that I'm worried about

Is it Sakura Hana?

I meant to respond to this

Even if I scumread Sakura Hana, I wouldn't scumread Sakura Hana.

Actually, it was you but that isn't a spicy read anymore at this point.

[Celestial Coordinates]

I think that Yuk is town and I feel reasonably strongly about this.

Why is yuk town then?

I think that 1) they feel genuinely solvey and 2) the posts that they've been scumread for are ones they would expect to be scumread for and not make as scum.

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I'm just going to step away since I'm too pissed off to be likely to be useful to town.

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I think that Yuk is town and I feel reasonably strongly about this.

Why is yuk town then?

I think that 1) they feel genuinely solvey and 2) the posts that they've been scumread for are ones they would expect to be scumread for and not make as scum.

Then when who do you want that isnt wisdom or ceph

Wisdom/Ceph are really important for dealing with the Shoshin situation ASAP.

If that's not gonna happen, then I'd pretty much go for anyone who is likely to be lynchbait later in the game because I'm reasonably confident that this consensus won't end on scum.

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Even if I scumread Sakura Hana, I wouldn't scumread Sakura Hana.

What does this even mean.

You're town to me until 3 scum are dead.

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I don't think Dann is like super scummy I'm just meh on him. He hasn't spewed himself town to the extent that I'm clearing him yet.

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Hey real talk to everyone. I know this is a large, and that games on here lately have been fucking stupid, but this game started yesterday and has over 70 pages.

7 players have over 100 posts already and a total of 1,230 between them.

That means the other 8 players have posted 525 times combined.

If you are one of the top 7 posters

SHUT

THE

FUCK

UP.

tl;dr

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Is that Nancy or RC? One ill give a shit about and ill let you guess which one.

Ok I don't want to be an asshole I really shouldn't have kept posting when I know I shouldn't be posting.

Later, thread.

You're gonna lynch town with Gameplay I'm telling you in advance.

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Is that Nancy or RC? One ill give a shit about and ill let you guess which one.

Calm a wee bit down dude. Just a little.

Nah I was being a dick, objectively.

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I think that Wisdom/Gameplay lynches give us a very solid path to the win in many different situations and many different scumteams.
I don't think that there's an easy replacement for Wisdom in that pairing and if we're replacing Wisdom I think the goal is to just get rid of someone who is definitely gonna be a ML later on.

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I think no matter what combination of flips we get from Gameplay/Wisdom the lynch will hit scum after, as well.

I already feel like I'm gonna be a mislynch this game

I liked what I read of Gameplay so far, granted it was only every third page I read.

Who is wanting to not pass to Gameplay and why?

It's not that I townread Gameplay, it's that I guarantee with the gamestate as it is that whoever gets sent with Gameplay is town if I let go of the controls.
I can't say why I feel that way, it's a gut thing. Similarly to my "this entire 9 person wagon is town" gut thing last game. I get very good gamestate reads without having to work for them.

It's nice.

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OH can you guys make a joint readslist for me

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I 100% guarantee you all that this isn't an easy game where we can just lynch the people who aren't trying and win.

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That's pretty typical SS.

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I really really think we should stick with Gameplay/Wisdom.

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I could do SS/Gameplay

I think it’s really unnatural he hasn’t voted

Sample size one?

Sample size it’s weird

Weird for SS or weird in general because I'll tell you that the former isn't true.

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What are your scum reads right now?

Aside from gameplay:

Hmmm
Im fine with Dannflor dying.
Im also fine with Yuki dying.
Im also fine with PM dying.

After all this i realize that my reads and Wisdom's arent very different.

I think everyone on that list is town.

She thinks there's at least one town between you and Shoshin but the way you were playing when she checked in earlier makes her think both of you are going to lose us the game. I'd prefer if Shoshin was just replaced for that awful ploy earlier, but I'm not going to push it.

Crazy assertion: isn't this the exact same thing that Giggles and Schadd said about me in the game where I was pushing on scum!her?

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I really really think we should stick with Gameplay/Wisdom.

If you keep saying this ill pass the baton to wisdom.

How is wisdom different from HH?

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I really really think we should stick with Gameplay/Wisdom.

If you keep saying this ill pass the baton to wisdom.

How is wisdom different from HH?

Very, i can read Wisdom.

What about Ceph then?

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What about Ceph then?

Can probably read him if he actually starts efforting.

Can you help me see why Wisdom is town?

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I feel like everyone's looking at the lynchbait pool for scum and I'm not entirely sure I think there's scum there.

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I could do PM just to see the flip since they're almost certainly not going to endgame if that would appease you, SH

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I think everyone on that list is town.

do you only like scum reading me when it's spicy

obviously

you gotta be the deepwolf

you can't be some kiddie pool wolf wtf is that fuck off with that shit

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if i scumread you i would push everyone to townread you until you were a universal townread then push you as scum just so that you'd be the deepwolf i believed you could be

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I never said I wouldn't try to read Cephrir, or at least didn't mean that. The fact I engaged him early is evidence of that.

I feel like "I need to find someone to sheep on Cephrir" contradicts that though. Unless you're saying that was purely a joke?

It was a joke related to Ceph's post about disliking certain types of players who think their meta knowledge makes them pro. I don't sheep anyone, at least not in a pure sense.

hrm

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you know I trust your reads right sakura

I just need help here.

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wow

rereading the shoshin-cephrir interactions on the early pages actually feels way more dynamic than they did via iso

shoshins "everything was a joke" explanation actually kinda sorta makes sense

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Ok but you're also saying that you're somewhat likely to errantly townread him but less likely to errantly scumread him?

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I don't really see what makes PM scum.

I'd accept a PM lynch as an inevitable cutting down of the lynchpool since they're not getting nightkilled or making endgamed.

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Oh's reaction to me feels way over-the-top & fake.

It's not. Trying to argue that you're modspewed town because you didn't replace out of a game is pretty against the spirit of said game.

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Goodies highkey scummy because his questioning of why is gameplay scummy hurr durr feels like busywork.

In fact most of his posts feel like busywork and I don't think a 3 headed hydra should be struggling to fit in or catch up.

not a bad read.

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Oh's reaction to me feels way over-the-top & fake.

I would say that's just Enter.

look at this deepwolf deepwolfing smh

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I've seen Enter get way more worked out about less egregious things both as town and out of game.

+1

also, Sakura, what about Goodies/Gameplay?

That way they can be the G/G

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I guess? I remember he was upset about my self-vote but not to the point of force replacing & banning. It's a different level.

And trying to spew yourself town because you didn't replace out of a game that you would have replaced out of as town is a different level as well.

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I guess what I'm saying, RC, is that it's usually scum who get upset when a strong townie gets confirmed town. And that's what I'm feeling about Oh.

my experience says differently, although i can't grab examples for you off the top of my head

I agree with her general principle actually, but.

usually scum take moral issues to the moderator in private

Oh, when we add this, yeah. No one wants to be the scum seen getting mad about that.

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Like I read the rules the first time this came up and it doesn't

seem

to be against the rules to talk about the fact that you would hypothetically have replaced out if you rolled scum unless it falls under trust tell category. It doesn't fall afoul of the new replace out rule at the very least.

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There's no argument to be made here. You effectively cheated. I don't need to prove you wrong or try and get my point through so that other people won't do the same thing in the future, because cheating is enforceable by site moderators and objectively bad.

This is only true if you believe that she wouldn't bring this logic up as scum. I'm not so sure that's true, so I don't see it as cheating. /shrug

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Like, I think there's a shit ton of stuff that players do on a regular basis that could be seen as trust telling if it wasn't clear that there's nothing stopping said players from doing it as scum.

I AM DEFINITELY TOWN IN THIS GAME

red text of truth but really no one in existence is stupid enough to believe I wouldn't do it as scum.

The real question is whether you think that she would not be willing to break these meta claims for tactical advantage. I think that she would. I think that it might be this game.
I guess you're taking the claim at face value which several others are as well which is why everyone's just like lol she's town but yeah.

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Any more than my "pinkie swear I'm town, totally wouldn't do this as scum" is a trust tell. Just because she laid out a mechanism, doesn't mean that it's true.

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It's crazy how strong the correlation is between slots I'm unsure of and slots that don't want Wisdom dead.

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When you get into that territory, it's hard to read the slot without feeling bad about something.

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I missed this meme.

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it was an exceptionally dank one tbh

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it was an exceptionally dank one tbh

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There were a ton of players who were townreading Gameplay and then changed their reads when it seemed inevitable that he was going to go down.

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Hey Shoshin do we actually like each other? Or do we just put up with each other because we want to win games. I'm not sure anymore.

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CC, if you are going to keep up the post rate, how about you get me involved for a bit and you help me get caught up?

Sure, what do you want to talk about?

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Ok, so this is the more crazy head. It was my idea for us all to only read every third page, but my better thirds made a convincing argument.

How well do you deal with crazy? And i know I assumed this was RC earlier, but can you confirm?

This is RC. I will do my best to deal with crazy but you will probably get lynched before endgame if you try this.

Hey Shoshin do we actually like each other? Or do we just put up with each other because we want to win games. I'm not sure anymore.

Do you want an honest answer to this?

It's more of a rhetorical question.

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Oversoul was a neg because of his self vote, I know that he would know he was town and would vote himself, but I didnt think of that and no one else did either, so in my mind its a scum thing trying to get control of the baton early to help hide their team in the early passes.

I townread Oversoul's iso in its entirety but I don't know what I'd point to to explain why.

PM you are on board with hanging out to dry.

Sorta, yeah, but without the greatest expectation of a scumflip.

Ceph i wasnt thrilled about all the meta talk. Nacho might be able to help me more with this read, but you can weigh in as well.

I think that they're scum most of the time because of the stances they've taken and how others have interacted with them.
I do need to actually meta the Cephrir account as opposed to trying to read their alt which plays very differently though.

Hana i started out not liking but then remembered that if i dont like hana to start then she has a <rand chance of being town and im projecting my expectations of proper play onto her, which is different for all people.

I think Hana will be reasonably solvable in the long run and trying to sort her early feels like a massive headache inducer.

I liked you, gay dance, and wisdom.

Townread the first two, scumread but not my strongest scumread on Wisdom.

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Oversoul was a neg because of his self vote, I know that he would know he was town and would vote himself, but I didnt think of that and no one else did either, so in my mind its a scum thing trying to get control of the baton early to help hide their team in the early passes.

I townread Oversoul's iso in its entirety but I don't know what I'd point to to explain why.

PM you are on board with hanging out to dry.

Sorta, yeah, but without the greatest expectation of a scumflip.

Ceph i wasnt thrilled about all the meta talk. Nacho might be able to help me more with this read, but you can weigh in as well.

I think that they're scum most of the time because of the stances they've taken and how others have interacted with them.
I do need to actually meta the Cephrir account as opposed to trying to read their alt which plays very differently though.

Hana i started out not liking but then remembered that if i dont like hana to start then she has a <rand chance of being town and im projecting my expectations of proper play onto her, which is different for all people.

I think Hana will be reasonably solvable in the long run and trying to sort her early feels like a massive headache inducer.

I liked you, gay dance, and wisdom.

Townread the first two, scumread but not my strongest scumread on Wisdom.

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I think Hana will be reasonably solvable in the long run and trying to sort her early feels like a massive headache inducer.

I thought you said in another game that i was one of the easiest players to read on site.

It's not that I can't read you. It's that it's easier to just assume you're town right now because feeling like I have someone in my corner is more important than catching you if you're scum.

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Like if you're scum, what then?

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I guess I overestimated you then.

I wouldn't say this necessarily. But my ability to be functional is dependent on my emotional state and that's already extremely fragile in this game. I do my best work in set bounds.

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Like if you're scum I think it's still better for me to play the game as if you're town until scum flips happen because you townreading us is helping maintain my sanity.

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I would be very surprised if Nacho's recent posting was in any player's scum range.

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The game doesn't really make sense to me if Wisdom is town unless Gameplay is scum and the scumteam is a very narrow set of possibilities btw.

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The primary reason I want the baton is still so that myself and Nancy Drew can actually play as a hydra before we die, which is unlikely to say the least as things stand.

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Regardless my gut said we were never going to end up with the baton and I think it was correct and I'd rather Nacho get it than someone who isn't going to do anything meaningful with it.

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VOTE: Nacho

However, if I'm not getting the baton it becomes even more important to me that I get to post reads with a known wisdom flip so I'd appreciate if you to stop fighting that.

I really like Nacho's analysis that Wisdom has actually not gone after any of the deep wolves and just picked his pool from the lurkers/easy lynches.

I believe I already said this at some point but yes.

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Ahh... kind of want to vote Nacho now for baton nomination...

We were never actually getting the baton. A mixture of the scum and the older players like Cephrir who wouldn't have voted me for it if I were an IC with a vig makes sure of that.

We need to set up a baton pass order now though, and lynch anyone who deviates from it.

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But the main reason is Nacho actually gave a read on me and CC just said "She's town until 3 scum are dead" after saying in ANOTHER GAME that i was "the poster child for easy to read".

If I had tried to read you earlier in the game and you had been scum I would have just given up on the game.

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Nacho
Sakura
RC
Shoshin
GDGW
Oversoul
Dannflor
Oh
SS
Yukzyuk
Pmysterious
Cephrir
Goodies

Leftovers [gameplay/wisdom]

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Everyone is agreeing that anyone who deviates from this plan is getting speedlynched tomorrow, right?

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I still think scum absolutely did not want me ending up with the baton pass and that literally anyone, Nacho included, was preferable.

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I'd rather CC have the baton over

this has never been something that was actually happening in this lobby.

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this has never been something that was actually happening in this lobby.

I don't care whether this is true or not, can you stop playing the victim card.

I don't understand why you call this playing the victim card for stating a fact that I've been saying literally since the start of the phase.
I'm a lot less emotionally invested in this than you seem to think. It matters because it says a lot about what scum are doing and thinking.

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I was more or less resigned on the baton issue

Resigned does imply that you weren't happy about the decision. If you disagree that it's generally to do with me being who I am, you're welcome to offer an alternative explanation.

It isn't a fact. It's an opinion.

Regardless, I don't have an issue with you saying it. But you've more than made your point wrt it, so you don't need to keep bringing it up.

Actually I plan to shove it in everyone's face for pretty much the remainder of my being alive in this game to make sure people listen to me. Sorry.

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I guess I'll more critically engage Nacho to be sure

Sakura Hana townread mainly build momentum once she had her split from RC, but even before then I thought there were two points that were important to me. The first were from her interactions with grumprir simply because I don't think there's a scenario that makes sense to me where Sakura is scum and drives the knife in like she did. As scummates with Cephrir she'd be hyperaware of Ceph's feelings because daychat so definitely not there. Sakura scum and RC town then she knows RC is wrong so can't see her going as hard as she did here, and don't really see Sakura taking the position of "RC's sidekick" if they're scum together. I think her expression of not caring about the strong scumgame affecting her townread on RC here came across as pretty genuine for whatever reason, and the progression from Shoshin's Africa Tell and how that ended up eroding her faith in RC and causing her to break from him in a couple of places came across as super town.

What's with the assumption that Cephrir's feelings are genuine as opposed to AtE? You say that she'd be hyperaware of Ceph's feelings but that also assumes the AtE is in good faith which it presumably wouldn't be if she's scum?

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See, maybe you're not emotionally invested, but posts like that sure could have fooled me.

In the baton or winning the game?

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I would think that they're related, but I meant whatever you meant in 1958. I was assuming you meant winning the game.

I'm invested in winning the game. I'm not invested in the baton outside of precisely what it means that I am going to end up dead N1 and what it says about the scumteam.

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Regardless, we don't really need to talk about it anymore. I've given my opinion; from an outside perspective it looks like you're complaining about how people view you. If you're going to use the claim that scum didn't want you get the baton to actually accomplish things, that's fine.

I mean I'm not exactly averse to complaining about how people view me. But if I'm only being involved in 3 lynches you can be damn sure that I'm leading them.

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You understand that the lynches are essentially decided atp, right? All that's left for town or scum to influence is the baton.

I'm talking disproportionately about the baton because it's the only moving piece currently in play and I don't feel like discussing tomorrow lynches without seeing these flips.

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I've reread and I see where the read that I'm being passive aggressive salty comes from but I'm really just shoring up my ability to push the game tomorrow.

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also I finally critically read SH's iso since I could rely on Nacho to make me not want to stab my eyes out with forks and she's town!!! yay ice cream for everyone

You talk as if you cant tell when im town and when im scum.
Which is fine, i guess everyone does it.
I'd rather see more genuine reads on me like the one coming from Nacho.
Specially coming from someone that said im easy to read.

Like I said, it's not about my ability to read you it's about the fact that I needed the emotional support that you being town gives more than I needed to actually know if you were town or not.
Like, it would have been a major struggle for me to continue being invested in the game if I ended up scumreading you at one of the points where you were one of the only people backing me up.

That becomes a lot less of a problem now because I feel reasonably comfortable in my position and finding out that someone supporting me is scum isn't going to kill my drive.
I'm not sure how obvious it has been this game that I've been teetering on the brink of giving up on it, but I have been.

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I should also critically evaluate Dannflor I guess but I think he'd be voting me regardless of anything.

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In other words, you were using me.

I mean, you could say that. I would think that you would want to be contributing to me not hating the game, though.

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I think the first 20 pages are probably the most important in the game.

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people explicitly supportng killing gameplay wisdom

yukzyuk
cc
shoshin
dannflor
gdgw
goodies
nacho


Is that right?

yes

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Can everyone vote at their earliest convenience

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I'm not voting until we get an explicit majority so nobody can deviate.

Technically any individual can deviate, we'd need an affirmative from everyone.

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Yukz is town and my dying to enable his mislynch is probably a relevant factor.

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Yukz is town and my dying to enable his mislynch is probably a relevant factor.

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I want Shoshin dead for in game and external reasons.

Ank agrees that Shoshin should die (paraphrasing) exclusively for in-game reasons.

Shoshin is literally never going to die ever if you let me die.

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I want Shoshin dead for in game and external reasons.

Ank agrees that Shoshin should die (paraphrasing) exclusively for in-game reasons.

Shoshin is literally never going to die ever if you let me die.

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I actually don't think I should be interfering with baton votes for /reasons/

I'll let everyone else handle the day from here, later.

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I think im just going to do the same thing i did near the end of MG where i didnt care if we won and only cared how good my reads were.

This is the path to self improvement.

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If a majority are on that plan when we hammer, I will stick to whatever list we have made most recently.

We already have a majority btw.

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Yuki you probably have higher chances of winning by voting for RC who's defending you, why are you vanity voting.

Yuki is holding off on placing their final vote until we have an established agreement from majority that we support these lynches.

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I didnt but I'd be lying if I said that didnt look like a town replace out

in what way

ceph's just scum lol

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In the interest of having a specific alternative, I propose we murder Yukz and PM. All those in favor?

Having a real counter wagon seems productive for the game state. It's hard to analyze when the alternatives are x and "not x."

yukz hardtown to me

pm just meh, highly likely to be lynchbait that scum would be setting up for the lynch

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I did the same thing before when i said that i'd give the baton to wisdom if he was in the baton kill pool tho.

you shouldn't sakura it's so obvious that scum don't want this to go through and are resisting it constantly lol

if you'd rather do like gameplay/ceph we can do that but i guarantee there's AT LEAST 1 scum in gameplay wisdom

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also that doesn't look like a town replace out at all

literally, not at all

i've seen that exact replace out from scum like a dozen times this year and counting and it's highly reminiscent of HH's rep out even

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like they gave up on the game and then replaced out to give their scumteam a fighting chance. that can apply to town too, for sure, but there's nothing

town indicative

about it and i'e seen similar replace outs ad nauseam from scum in losing positions.

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I can compromise on Yuki/Gameplay or Yuki/Wisdom

yukz is a top townread of mine and i'm never letting them die.

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like every slot that i have questions about their alignment is opposing these lynches every slot that i townread is defending them

sometimes you get LE situations where scum are loldefending town but if this is an LE situation it'll still be super easy to figure out where the scum are relative to this wagon

also for some reason GIF really wants our slot to be the one who passes the last baton for some reason

something something anarchy my reads are better

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defending them = defending that they should be lynched like there's potential vectors of wrongness here but they're things like gay dance gone wrong being scum