Baton Pass [Game Over!]

[Dannflor]

I'd be okay hammering myself, yes.

Really?

Who would you pass to?

Why wouldn't someone be okay hammering themselves?

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Oversoul

[Dannflor]

I like Oversoul and Sakura Hana

[Dannflor]

My town meta vs scum meta is painfully obvious and I will only support people who will become blatantly obvtown. Shoshin has basically the same meta style differences as me so she is really the only other one who I would support

Enter can become blatantly obvtown.

Nancy can too unless you suspect RC will be writing her posts for her.

[Dannflor]

Nancy can too unless you suspect RC will be writing her posts for her.

Fun fact, in magical girls if i rolled scum i was planning on letting RC write my posts for me.

Fair enough.

I do believe Enter has the capability though, and I don't think Ank has the ability to ghostwrite him.

[Dannflor]

okay

townspew go

[Dannflor]

Townreads>scumreads for this game since scum benefit more from townreading their buddies than bussing
So taking more time to explain those is not going to be bad imo

What are your town reads or just vague townie impressions so far this game?

[Dannflor]

I can't tell if SS is in his town meta or pantomiming his town meta

[Dannflor]

but it's cool to have reads

[Dannflor]

Ye ok good
Honestly from what we've had so far I have more negative then positive reads atm
It might be that the other large theme magical girls was pretty jokish for the first 10-15 pages or so but SS, wisdom and SH posts just seem a little out of place
Esp SS and his questions which just seem like overdoing it a bit

I view those posts mostly positively for trying to move the game out of RVS.

Do you just think they're trying too hard?

[Dannflor]

someone said magical girls would be a town stomp

[Dannflor]

based on my extensive meta with Cephrir, I believe he is town

[Dannflor]

This is already shaping up to be a game I will lose interest in pretty quickly

I feel like you say this every game

[Dannflor]

What do you like about Ceph’s posts?

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Sakura Hana

[Dannflor]

As an additional note, if we're not planning all the baton passes as a group together we're wasting the potential town equity of this setup.

Let's not do this please

Why wouldn’t we? As long as one person isn’t just overriding everyone it potentially gives more information + greater accuracy.

[Dannflor]

Sakura is probably an inefficient vote

Explain.

[Dannflor]

How does it give more info exactly?

people are forced to give more reads before the night phase, puts more emphasis on day play

[Dannflor]

It’s not about leashing it’s just about everyone voicing their opinion.

[Dannflor]

I feel like Wisdom is looking to pick a fight with RC.

That’s one way to get negative utility.

Oh, why is my vote suboptimal?

[Dannflor]

Shoshin, are you town reading RC?

[Dannflor]

I agree with #363.

There's no point in making someone bulletproof just because they're obvtown if they were never going to be a night-kill target anyway.

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Shoshin

[Dannflor]

obvtown players are nightkill targets by definition

scum love shooting the irrelevant innocent child first if the game state isn't going poorly for them

That's true but I'm not sure it's as applicable to N1.

[Dannflor]

I don't think Shoshin is a likely nightkill.

Who are the likeliest nightkills in your eyes? Celestial and Nacho?

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Celestial

[Dannflor]

If no one protects us

I think it's slightly town indicative to be unaware of the setup?

[Dannflor]

If no one protects us

I think it's slightly town indicative to be unaware of the setup?

Definitely don't agree with this.

Why? I might be wrong about how AI it is but I've always consider scum more likely to be hyper aware of the setup.

[Dannflor]

maybe it's just a dumb tell not a town tell

[Dannflor]

Btw Dann why do you feel like scum this game?

I was about to ask you the same question funnily enough

[Dannflor]

What about me feels like scum, Enter?

[Dannflor]

Oversoul can you please explain which parts you disagree with and why

[Dannflor]

What about me feels like scum, Enter?

Not me.

Oh, interesting.

I assume neither of you are ever going to sign your posts?

Where are your reads at currently?

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Shoshin

[Dannflor]

We're voting for who is going to be bulletproof tonight, Nancy.

[Dannflor]

This was an awkward place to ask this question.

Are you trying to talk to me, Dann?

I don't know who you even is.

I am trying to talk to Enter.

Answer the question instead of commenting on awkward placement.

[Dannflor]

You're aggressive this game.

Why are you pushing for reads from me right now?

Are you not interested in the conversation at hand?

Nice observation.

Because I scum read you currently and that's a read I want to examine more closely.

I am not. I've stated my thoughts. I err on the side of town discussing and deciding the baton order together before night.

[Dannflor]

That wasn't me.

Start signing your posts if you don't want this to be a problem.

[Dannflor]

I have a light town read on you currently but I'm not interested in voting for you.

[Dannflor]

I do have a few but they're about as solid as jello right now.

That's fine, I just need to know where your head is at.

[Dannflor]

This discussion about mechanics is very boring.

[Dannflor]

I have a light town read on you currently but I'm not interested in voting for you.

Oh I don't want to be voted either. It's not like scum's gonna kill us lol
I just wanted us to be mason until Day 3 provided that we're both alive until then.

let's fake claim masons if one of us gets pushed

i saw someone do it in a recent game and it seems like a good strat

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Celestial

[Dannflor]

I'm good with Shoshin as well.

[Dannflor]

These conflicts are boring. You're obviously the most likely to get shot, unless you're scum, in which case I'm probably most likely to get shot. This isn't worth wasting time on.

Scum would shoot nacho over you actually

Depends who scum is?

[Dannflor]

Half of the Oh vs. Celestial back-and-forth is each one of them prescribing the other player's hydra posts to the wrong player and then the other one getting mad about the misrep.

[Dannflor]

It's not usually a problem from your account because Nancy has a very distinct style. But I think Enter attributed Nancy's game-throwing comment to you.

It's just making this take much longer than it needs to because half of Enter's posts are "I didn't say that."

[Dannflor]

Half those posts are from Nancy, Enter.

And... How is "oof no town protectives" toxic?

[Dannflor]

I'd propose Wisdom/Goodies at the moment.

Why are we doing this already

Why not start discussing it? It's not set in stone and let's people have plenty of time to voice opposition/whatever

[Dannflor]

Also I like Cephrir and gameplay hasn't done anything I like yet.

I don't like gameplay either.

What specifically did you like from Cephrir, though?

[Dannflor]

Alright, Dann, ball's in your court.

What are your reads?

My most confident town reads are on Shoshin, Celestial, and Oversoul.

I like Gay Dance, Sakura, and Something_Smart to varying levels.

I didn't like your entrance and wasn't impressed by your catch up afterwards but I'm reconsidering that read.

I don't like gameplay or goodies. I find Wisdom's response to Shoshin a little scummy, although I'm not sure I buy her initial case.

Everyone else is some shade of null rnow.

I'll expand on any one of these you want, I just don't have the time to explain all of them right now. I plan on rereading and organizing a proper reads list when I'm done with my uni reading today. Could you expand on Cephrir when you get the chance? I'm still null on them.

[Dannflor]

She's my weakest town read in my lean town tier

[Dannflor]

This line of questioning is another thing I don't like from Yukz.

Why?

They are trying to get you to take a stance on Wisdom

that seems like an attempt to sort to me

[Dannflor]

What are your reads, Dann?

I... literally just posted them?

[Dannflor]

I'm thinking

{Goodies, Wisdom, Ceph, PMysterious}

Will this be a Scummie or a Crummie

where gameplay

[Dannflor]

Something_Smart not having made a vote for someone is incredibly weird given my playing history with him. I would have expected him to self-nom. Surprised that he did not.

On the contrary, I expect him to go quite a while without deciding on a vote for anyone, if he does so at all.

I'll get to gameplay later.

[Dannflor]

I don't think Shoshin is the worst choice for the baton, but Celestial would be my first choice currently.

[Dannflor]

Oh also

Why were we talking about "S_S hasn't voted anyone yet"

When this game hasn't even been 24 hours long?

Page count is more relevant than time

[Dannflor]

#740 bad
#741 good

[Dannflor]

Was this read formed entirely after she tried to vote herself over you?

[Dannflor]

the way she developed her Wisdom read clinched it.

I town read the timing of this even though I didn't agree with the case itself. Why is it scum indicative?

[Dannflor]

Oh

[Dannflor]

Enter is town

[Dannflor]

I am pretty shocked this is meeting with agreement

Your response was lackluster

[Dannflor]

Oh

That's our name

Enter is town

Just... out of curiosity and a little bit of fear, what makes you think that?

Your righteous anger (sass) towards Cephrir reads genuine. I liked how you engaged Cephrir and called him out on his hypocrisy. Despite the sass it felt like you were legitimately trying to get Cephrir to engage in a more pro-town way regardless of his alignment.

Why would you be afraid of me town reading you?

[Dannflor]

I find Wisdom's response to Shoshin a little scummy, although I'm not sure I buy her initial case.

What case? She just pointed to three posts and said nothing about why they make me scum. Whats scummy about asking for an explanation?

The explanation was she thought the self-awareness shown in those posts was a scum tell for you. I would've expected you to respond to that point instead of asking for clarification that was already given.

[Dannflor]

why wouldn't they

[Dannflor]

I can't read Shoshin. I've misread her both times I've played with her. So it's very possible I'm wrong on my initial town read.

Ceph's response to RC's case was bad but not scummy bad, just like bad bad. I'm still pretty null on him.

[Dannflor]

this game has already made me tremendously unhappy. i knew as of before last game i hated mafia. i hated last game. why am i here

take a break from the thread

the day just started

wait and see how shoshin/others respond?

[Dannflor]

shoshin/yukzuk probably has more scum equity than shoshin/Ceph

I agree with this currently.

There was a weird interaction earlier:

I'd propose Wisdom/Goodies at the moment.

I'm okay with this.

@S_S because this is more productive than what was happening before.

I'm going to say everyone who agreed with killing Wisdom/Goodies is town.

It was a blanket statement but the YukzYuk part stuck out to me because they haven't really done anything I'd consider town indicative. I found it odd Shoshin would give them a town read just for that.

[Dannflor]

Also I'm pretty sure if I just leave the game for a day Shoshin will get us lynched and everyone will still think Shoshin was town.

She can't. The majority still wants you bped over Shoshin.

Also she claimed to be town reading you and I think flipping that now would be scum indicative.

[Dannflor]

flipping

flipping that read, to clarify

not flipping any slot

[Dannflor]

i think that goodies is scummy

Spoiler:

[Dannflor]

I'm not, just curious about my tells and I like hearing about myself... forgive a little bit of ego?

I was a little wary because I know very well you can fake anger as scum. In this instance it was what specifically you chose to engage on that had me like... Oh yeah that's town Enter

[Dannflor]

The fear isn't that you're town reading me, it's that I do something bad and that's why you're townreading me.

I don't think you're a bad player

[Dannflor]

gameplay s_s yukzuk

who opposes killing those three

I do.

S_S is town.

[Dannflor]

Dannflor is almost non-existent

excuse me

[Dannflor]

Gay Dance is probably an inefficient vote

[Dannflor]

gameplay s_s yukzuk

who opposes killing those three

I do.

S_S is town.

why?
what about the other two?

The other two I support.

S_S is town because meta namely. His approach to things has also been consistently logical and without a scum agenda.

Why is he scum? “Not progressing the gamestate” isn’t really a case for reasons he already laid out and I don’t think is a scum tell especially for his slot in particular.

[Dannflor]

Gay Dance is probably an inefficient vote

im an amazing vote

I’d vote u for president but not bp

[Dannflor]

Wisdom, what’s your case for Nacho “obviously” deserving it?

[Dannflor]

also rc always scum reads me unless i pull out a mechanical clear

he even scum read me in magical girls until i crumbed I was the IC

so like im kind of used to this by now

He’s threatened by how cute you are

[Dannflor]

I feel like Shoshin should be arguing why her play makes her town, but she’s chosen to completely ignore RC’s case on her in favor of the dumb angleshooty argument.

[Dannflor]

I feel like Shoshin should be arguing why her play makes her town, but she’s chosen to completely ignore RC’s case on her in favor of the dumb angleshooty argument.

If you want me to address his case, I will. I mostly don't want to get in a back-and-forth with RC, so if I'm addressing it, it's going to be for your sake, not his.

I would like if you did

[Dannflor]

It's a bit absurd to call me scum when nothing has even happened in this game. Generally-speaking, town RC gives me a chance to lynch scum because he knows my reads are good enough to do so. The fact he isn't doing that here is very concerning.

I also think his push on me came at a very suspicious moment -- I started challenging his bulletproof, meaning he possibly wouldn't be able to kill me at night & would need to lynch me.

Scum RC cannot afford to leave me alive for very long.

But it was somewhat clear he was scumreading you before that moment.

[Dannflor]

I’ll have to get the post numbers later.

But Shoshin, weren’t you the slot who said Nancy’s posts indicate that hydra is town? If not, do you agree with that?

[Dannflor]

Okay, thank you Shoshin.

[Dannflor]

I’ll be away from the thread a while but I’ll quote the posts I was looking for a response to when I come back.

[Dannflor]

I don't actually feel like outing the spicy slot that I'm worried about

Is it Sakura Hana?

[Dannflor]

Why aren’t people considering SS for one of the baton kills?

He's likely town.

I have yet to see someone give a good reason why he isn't.

[Dannflor]

Actually, it was you but that isn't a spicy read anymore at this point.

It wasn't really a spicy read when you made that post either.

[Dannflor]

@Shoshin, #763 and mostly #777 were the posts I was hoping you'd respond to earlier.

[Dannflor]

The expressed scum reads on me are largely for wooden posting if I understand correctly. Ankamius can tell you that's not a scum tell for me.

[Dannflor]

give me a good reason why he is

I've been over this already but apparently people aren't reading my posts because they are boring.

Have you played with S_S before? I don't like using meta as an end all be all but his play is strongly reminiscent of the game I've played with him before, all as town. His questioning early game had a consistent line of thought that I could follow, he didn't seem to be questioning for the sake of questioning. His more recent support of RC's read accuracy and following such a confident read is logical and I don't really expect that coming from a scum agenda.

He's not lock town but his play so far has been

not scummy

enough that I don't think a player like S_S can sustain for so long (no offense S_S).

The scum reads on him seem to be for fluff posting. That's generally a bad basis for a scum read to begin with and it's worse on his slot.

[Dannflor]

Shoshin what experience do you have with Dann?

FotM and Undertale

[Dannflor]

1259 was very wrong and showed he isn’t reading the game

?

I remembered a post that said that. I thought it might have been Shoshin but didn't have the time to double check on my way out the door. There was a specific reason I asked that as a question because I was unsure and needed someone to clarify for me since I didn't have time to do it myself.

[Dannflor]

I'm bringing this up because I have played with S_S before. I read/played through a scum game of his recently and it wasn't remarkably different from this game. The game was so recent I still have notes from it. S_S being not scummy is not a good reason to call him town. His support of RC's read accuracy is especially similar to that game where he searched for the way other players were reading/playing the game and then excused his own play by trying to make others take responsibility for his actions. How do you think S_S is fluff posting?

Link to this game?

I don't personally find S_S's questions to be fluff, but I think other slots have. Gameplay in particular was one of the first players to state that S_S's questioning felt like it was "trying too hard" or something. That's another tentative reason I'm town reading S_S because I heavily scum read Gameplay—I agree with Nacho's entire push and case on him and I think his last (fake?) hammer and "oh well if I die attitude" is scum still just trying to stay afloat looking like a lost townie. That's a pre-flip associative though so not really a big reason why I have a town read on S_S.

[Dannflor]

Dannflorr

everyday I see a new way to spell my name

[Dannflor]

I already feel like I'm gonna be a mislynch this game

[Dannflor]

Sakura Hana, why are you so eager to put me in the first lynchings when you

just

just quick lynched me as town. Especially with your town read of Shoshin town reading me.

[Dannflor]

Who is wanting to not pass to Gameplay and why?

Read Nacho's ISO.

Gameplay's entrance was scummy. He's upset about being scum read for that because it was at the beginning of the game but scummy on page 5 is still scummy. His recent catch up and response to Nacho's post was also scummy. Him voting Celestial and acting semi-defeatist is also scummy. Other people have covered it already so I suggest you go read those posts so I don't bloat the game thread any further.

[Dannflor]

I already feel like I'm gonna be a mislynch this game

Then start efforting, my bloody good sir.
-Bill

Hi.

I am giving all the effort I can while I am able to post.

[Dannflor]

Do you think S_S' play pushes a town objective? Do you think a majority of his questions are helpful to the game/necessary or reasonable questions?

I think he is forming micro-reads based off of them, as he does as town. I think they are helping him sort and are generally reasonable questions. There's been not much he's asked where I'm like... uh what's the point of that, that's stupid?

I can't promise I'll read the game you linked but I'll try to get around to it tonight if I have the time, since it seems to be heavily informing your read.

Hold for gameplay interaction post numbers.

[Dannflor]

It's that I'm posting naturally, and I'm not forcing myself to take stances or have opinions.

This actually explains my read on S_S pretty well.

Then gameplay said this:

Ye ok good
Honestly from what we've had so far I have more negative then positive reads atm
It might be that the other large theme magical girls was pretty jokish for the first 10-15 pages or so but SS, wisdom and SH posts just seem a little out of place

Esp SS and his questions which just seem like overdoing it a bit

[Dannflor]

Sakura Hana, why are you so eager to put me in the first lynchings when you

just

just quick lynched me as town. Especially with your town read of Shoshin town reading me.

I haven't seen anything from you that looks like pushing a scumread.

Also there's a lack of kitties

I find that harder to do in this phase in the game since the discussion has revolved largely around who should get the BP.

I did press Oh as a major scum read early on though. So I question whether you've actually read my posts.

What are your scum reads right now?

[Dannflor]

I could do SS/Gameplay

I think it’s really unnatural he hasn’t voted

Not unnatural.

He sometimes self-votes in normal games, but there are many good reasons he wouldn't self-vote here.

[Dannflor]

What does shoshin TRing you have anything to do with my read on you just coz i TR Shoshin?

I would expect you to be more hesitant. Or try to engage with me more. Or try to engage with Shoshin more.

Generally, if I have a read that conflicts with someone I strongly town read I at least try to investigate why that difference exists, unless I don't really care and just want the person dead.

[Dannflor]

Why PM, Sakura?

Shoshin, you're on board with Wisdom/gameplay, right?

[Dannflor]

I never said I wouldn't try to read Cephrir, or at least didn't mean that. The fact I engaged him early is evidence of that.

I feel like "I need to find someone to sheep on Cephrir" contradicts that though. Unless you're saying that was purely a joke?

[Dannflor]

So, Shoshin and RC both think we should do gameplay/wisdom.

They are the slots with arguably the highest read accuracy in this game. (also apparently Nacho but I don't know him and he at least agrees on gameplay)

Unless someone thinks Shoshin/Celestial is SvS I don't see a strong case against going with this.

I'm also not town reading Wisdom and haven't seen anyone town case him yet.

[Dannflor]

Dann has been a bit more aggressive this game than usual, actually.

yea wtf

im specifically trying to be more aggressive and assertive so that MG doesn't happen again and apparently Sakura reads that difference (or doesn't read it as it would seem) and says, oh I forgot Dann was in this game, let's kill him

[Dannflor]

I think everyone on that list is town.

do you only like scum reading me when it's spicy

[Dannflor]

[Dannflor]

What about Ceph then?

Can probably read him if he actually starts efforting.

Can you help me see why Wisdom is town?

You know that's a tall order to ask of me when im bad at explaining things, but I want to at least give him a normal day phase to read him.

I think with both Shoshin and RC pushing for this, you should do your best to explain it if you feel especially strongly on that read.

[Dannflor]

in context it's even funny

[Dannflor]

I don't really see what makes PM scum.

[Dannflor]

I don't really see what makes PM scum.

Like youve seen the posts where people talk about him and dont get it, or you havent seen anyone talk about it yet?

I don't see that slot as scummy. It hasn't done anything. But that's not inherently scummy.

[Dannflor]

Oh's reaction to me feels way over-the-top & fake.

I would say that's just Enter.

[Dannflor]

Goodies highkey scummy because his questioning of why is gameplay scummy hurr durr feels like busywork.

In fact most of his posts feel like busywork and I don't think a 3 headed hydra should be struggling to fit in or catch up.

Screw that, man, some of us have other games to play too. I want to know where you’re coming from

completely

so I can actually read you. Also, please cite lots of posts that feel like ‘busywork’, and explain what you think that is.

Gameplay has been rehashed quite a bit now. Did you go back and look at Nacho's ISO? What do you think of the case on gameplay?

It's busywork because you aren't following through on these questions, most of which have been answered already. It's fine if you missed the original answer but you're not actually following through and forming any opinions in response to the answers you're getting.

[Dannflor]

I've seen Enter get way more worked out about less egregious things both as town and out of game.

[Dannflor]

worked up*

[Dannflor]

Just look at his crusade against self-voting earlier in the year for evidence.

[Dannflor]

Do you think that GP tried to pull the same shtick because he saw others do it?

Does my answer to this question actually help sort me or gameplay in any significant way

[Dannflor]

Can I get a headcount on who is down for wisdom/gameplay deaths

im down

[Dannflor]

Do you think that GP tried to pull the same shtick because he saw others do it?

Does my answer to this question actually help sort me or gameplay in any significant way

You wanted me to go back and look at the iso, and this is me trying to engage with someone who is going to have alittle better understanding of the gamestate since i have been very clear i am not reading everything.

I have picked you to have this conversation with, and usually a conversation takes 2 peope otherwise its a monologue.

So you want me to read, but then you dont want to engage me on what you told me to read.

Copy that, i read you 5 by 5.

I'm not clear you haven't been reading everything because you haven't been signing your posts. I'm treating your slot as a single entity. Sorry if I'm overly hostile. I got ticked off by your slot telling me to effort which is pretty rich considering where it's coming from.

[Dannflor]

Danns reaction to the whole be active thing from my other head is a little troubling, but nothing to fret about just yet, id have to look back at it but i remember that having a much different tone than one where he would be pissed off enough to feel a dick tone was justified.

It wasn't exactly you that pissed me off. I was annoyed by the scum reads and that added on top seemed out of place and unnecessary. I apologize.

I'm taking a break from the thread rnow but I'll engage with you in good faith later if you still need help catching up.

[Dannflor]

I should also critically evaluate Dannflor I guess but I think he'd be voting me regardless of anything.

deepwolf me daddy

[Dannflor]

ankamius the way you engage and then act like you know better or that things happening are terrible for the gamestate but you're not gonna say why or do anything about it is very frustrating

[Dannflor]

I literally just left work dann

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

sure

I'm just saying that's been your attitude this entire game.

[Dannflor]

Does me being town have any significant effect on your analysis or does it just move me from one camp to the other

[Dannflor]

im a deepwolf and a mastermind

[Dannflor]

if she has it last she can't deviate

but Oh will probably deviate too

[Dannflor]

yeah Sakura's scum and I've known that for a while.

Hey that was my spicy secret scum read!

[Dannflor]

Apparently RC believes that scum me would defend a partner this hard.

That assume Wisdom is flipping scum

[Dannflor]

I feel like this could easily be an LE situation because no one has town cased Wisdom yet despite repeated requests for it. And I don't really see good reasons to town read him?

[Dannflor]

Sakura, you aren't stopping it. All you will accomplish is delaying it.

Then why are you wasting time arguing with me.

Because just delaying it is anti-town in this instance?

Like, help convince people that Wisdom is town. That's actually going to accomplish more than what you're doing.

[Dannflor]

I feel like you think the defeatist attitude is going to get you town read Sakura but you are STILL not doing anything to help convince the majority, which is mostly town even if scum are on RC's side, that your reads are correct.

I know you said you're bad at explaining things, but this is a situation where you really do have to try.

[Dannflor]

I'm fine with passing to S_S

[Dannflor]

Dann talk to me a lot please

ask me questions if you have questions or tell me sweet things

half of me thinks you might be lying to us

This is Enter, right?

[Dannflor]

Just making sure because I know Ank is the one with the scum read on me.

How are you reading Goodies?

[Dannflor]

I'd like to hear an expanded read on Enter from Dann, though - I didn't really understand why he started reading Oh as town when he did

I'd like to think I know Enter pretty well, or at least I have a decent grasp on him as a player. He tends to latch onto very specific things in the game and get really intense about them. He does this both as scum and town, I know. As scum in No Deadlines he got really intense over defending a slot and basically saying "lynch me instead" and it got him town read. But when he's town the things he latches onto are different, and I'm having trouble explaining

how

they are different beyond just this gut feeling I have. I think I can follow Enter's thought processes a lot more logically and they read genuine when he's town vs. scum.

This became most evident to me when he got visibly frustrated with how Cephrir was reacting to RC. That strikes me as something specifically town!Enter latches on to. I think it's sort of evident with his beef with Shoshin as well but the thing with Cephrir was my eureka moment.

There's also a lot of other small things about his play that I think generally come from town. RC having him as lock-town is a good sign too I think given their history and Enter's reputation as scum.

[Dannflor]

Just making sure because I know Ank is the one with the scum read on me.

How are you reading Goodies?

Out of everything that has come out tonight, why focus on us, and why not mention FF or try talking to us directly?

I got home and just skimmed (read to the best of my ability) like 20 pages. You were a surprisingly high percentage of those posts, but my read on you didn't progress much beyond a vague townie tonal feeling.

The unveiling of FF doesn't affect my read on your slot at all so I don't see why I'd mention it.

Did you ever decide if me being a dick earlier was scummy or not?

[Dannflor]

Just making sure because I know Ank is the one with the scum read on me.

How are you reading Goodies?

NULL

Also that was what I meant by "half of me"

Yeah, I got that now. I was curious whether that was Enter or a conflicted Ank reaching out though.

How much of Goodies have you read? I'm worried about the fact that they are nearing 200 posts and my read on them is still sludge.

[Dannflor]

Did you ever decide if me being a dick earlier was scummy or not?

I never looked back at it. I kinda feel like theres no way for me to say for you how you felt about the post and I could see someone being pissed off in that situation if i were you, so you get a pass.

Why did I think you were sring us still?

idk what to think about you rnow at all

My gut feeling when catching up was that I wanted to town read you

I cannot pinpoint why though

[Dannflor]

Votecount 1.32

Nachomamma8(5)

~ Wisdom¹³⁰, Cephrir¹⁹⁵, Shoshin¹⁵⁹, Sakura Hana²⁹¹, Oversoul¹³⁹

Celestial Coordinates(5)

~ Dannflor¹³⁸, Goodies¹⁷⁵, Gay Dance Gone Wrong³³², Celestial Coordinates⁵⁸⁰, YukzYuk²⁰⁵

Gay Dance Gone Wrong(1)

~ PMysterious⁹


Not Voting (4): Nachomamma8⁸⁶, Oh²⁴¹, Something_Smart¹⁴², Kagami⁴¹

With 15 alive it takes 8 to decide.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2019-10-14 08:04:59)

I still think everyone on the Nacho wagon should take a long hard look in the mirror and ask themselves what the fuck they are doing when the Man himself is backing another candidate for the baton.

If you think that Nacho is town enough to give the baton to then you should listen to him when he is basically giving his proxy to CC here.

We keep talking about people going against the plan and how they are the problem, well Nacho is telling his entire wagon that they are the problem here.

So lets see which ones peel off to honor their top town reads top read and which ones stay on til the bitter end.

I liked this post from you I guess

[Dannflor]

You were a surprisingly high percentage of those posts

At this time of night in my state this isnt uncommon for me, if you meta dive me you can see that easily. Hell we played a game together recently didnt we?

Oh, probably

I'm not really thinking of you as FF

maybe I should, but I don't know how much meta will help me giving the game we played together was FotM and uh...

well let's not talk about that

[Dannflor]

"... Enter's reputation as scum."
Should I be flattered or recognize that you know I can't play it well?

I think you have specific strengths as scum and that you're better than you give yourself credit for. I don't think your skillset lends itself to being able to fool RC for very long though. I'd like to think I'd be able to read you pretty accurately too. Granted, I haven't played vs. your scum game, just read games like BoP and Anuket.

[Dannflor]

fire on the mountain

I tunneled and mislynched FF

[Dannflor]

Goodies is interacting with people and I like that.

He's present and I like that.

I was worried because just

being

in the thread and posting nothing of substance can be a great way to get town read without actually doing any work.

I like the fact that they immediately engaged with me when I asked you about them though. It shows they're actively reading and apparently trying to sort.

[Dannflor]

Meh.

I still town read S_S but I can't explain why I town read him very well.

I do feel like at worst he should be a null read for people due to his playstyle though. It feels like a cheap excuse but his meta is important to reading him.

You said you had meta experience with him as scum? Have you played with town!S_S before?

[Dannflor]

I never got to read that game you linked me earlier, so I don't really have any experience with scum!SS

how would you describe the difference between his scum and town game

[Dannflor]

Sure, Goodies. How are you reading S_S?

[Dannflor]

Sakura wants Oka dead.

Wisdom wants some combination of like S_S and me and Oka or something.

I don't think Ceph has pushed for anything?

[Dannflor]

I see an immediate difference in that game. He's way less engaged in that game whereas here he has been pretty active and engaged with everything happening throughout.

[Dannflor]

So, YukzYuk is basically the only proposed alternative to wisdom/gameplay.

Oh, I'm guessing your proposal would be something like S_S/Shoshin?

[Dannflor]

I see an immediate difference in that game. He's way less engaged in that game whereas here he has been pretty active and engaged with everything happening throughout.

I guess we disagree about his activity in this game...

He had 147 posts in that game total. He has 142 posts

already

in this game.

[Dannflor]

Is S_S progressing/adding something to the game/trying to be an integral part of the decision making process?
If yes, more likely town
If no, more likely scum

Is S_S scared to take responsibility for his actions to the point where he spends most of his time asking what other people would do in his situation?
If yes, more likely scum
If no, more likely town

I've interpreted S_S's engagement and willingness to fight for RC's strong scum read as "progressing/adding something to the game/trying to be an integral part of the decision making process."

I'm feeling others have interpreted that movement as being scared to take responsibility. Is that right?

[Dannflor]

Okay but Kagami/Gameplay 100% has to go this phase just reminding everyone

Yes.

[Dannflor]

I have a very strong town read on Oversoul.

GDGW is lean town but meh

no comment on PM

It's very hard to do "wagons" in this part of the game just because the lynches aren't setup like they normally are.

[Dannflor]

Spoiler:

Why would you obstruct a lynch that will almost certainly happen anyway?

Becuase I believe that when literally almost the entirety of the PL wants Wisdom dead means Wisdom's most likely town.

But that only matters if you can convince people not to immediately lynch him after the baton phase.

Do you have any other reasoning besides that?

Sakura, you aren't stopping it. All you will accomplish is delaying it.

I'm bored at work. I have plenty of time.

Why are you wasting EVERYONE's time?

I'm not wasting people's time im answering questions, I already stated my opinion and position, take it or leave it.

If you pass to Wisdom and everyone lynches him next, you've delayed that flip, and wasted in-game time.

Here is Something_Smart taking an active stance in game and trying to convince Sakura Hana to do the pro-town thing.

[Dannflor]

Spoiler:

By the way. I hate it when people worship RC as much as the next guy (though not many people have done it this game). But I'm really surprised at the number of people going "I don't understand RC's case on Shoshin so I'm going to ignore it and trust my own read there instead."

Like, I thought it was well-known that RC's ability to form good reads far outweighs his ability to explain them.

Please just treat him like another player and let's move on with the game.

Usually when I see any player deadset on a scumread, I will hear it out and then if it turns out to be wrong I'll lynch them with no regrets.

What I'm afraid of is if people won't consider lynching RC if Shoshin flips town.

who are the three people youd kill if you had to choose right now? @s_s

That's not a helpful question.

Shoshin and Cephrir, and if Shoshin flips town then CC, otherwise Goodies.

Here is S_S taking a stance on RC's confident scum read of Shoshin and telling people that it's pro-town to listen to it.

[Dannflor]

I also liked S_S's progression on Nacho.

[Dannflor]

Why can't we do this wagon stuff after we get the baton shit through

Except

My whole point

Is that

The reads are based off the baton shit.

We can't vote

no one is going to be held accountable for any "wagon" we try to create

[Dannflor]

Those are all surface reads Dann. Nothing you are showing screams town like you think its going to. All of that is well within SS's scumrange.

Sure.

But what are people

scum reading

him for?

Point to something specific in his ISO that you think is scum motivated. Because I don't think you can point to his ISO, and say "look it's bad," because of what his town meta is. I need some reason more than that to scum read him.

[Dannflor]

And let's not forget that he brings up multiple times that she's wasting in-game time, but if in-game time is so important to him, why does he want to end day early?

1. It bloats the thread.
2. It delays town lynches. If a lynch that town wants gets pushed to D2 instead of D1, that's essentially a day wasted.

[Dannflor]

Like that's not even a point against him I entirely agree that we should

1. End the day soon.
and
2. Sakura was wasting time and that is bad.

[Dannflor]

then all agree gameplay is scummy

you keep saying this

but people flipped their reads on him at one point

He wasn't a universal scum read until slowly me + RC + Shoshin outed that read

I think it will be telling when that read flipped for people

[Dannflor]

Who said PM gets a pass?

I think there's special attention on Wisdom because people expect more from that name.

[Dannflor]

You think one player expressing their disagreement with a certain group of people set up for lynch and talking about their reads is bloating the thread?

I'm sorry, what do you think the actual content of a good mafia game looks like?

I think going "nananananana I'm gonna deviate from the plan," and then other people going "no, don't, it's a waste of time because the majority wants this and this is how the setup works" and going back and forth for a while does bloat the thread yeah

it's not productive content after the initial disagreement

especially because Sakura was not trying very hard to explain her reads

[Dannflor]

ok enter I'm sorry I forgot about that

[Dannflor]

I was not trying to maliciously take credit away from you I apologize

[Dannflor]

Why do you want to end the day soon?

Wait. First answer this question:

How solid are your reads righ tnow? Because you'd better have a very full reads list with a lot of REALLY SOLID READS if you think ending day soon is a good thing

don't have solid reads on a good number of slots

still think ending the day soon is a good thing

We view this game very very differently right now Enter

[Dannflor]

2. WHat are you talking about here? How is she delaying a lynch to day 2? If someone other than the two people on death row right now gets lynched, it's because town wanted it. Scum don't have a majority yet. If town wants it so bad, there are other town players in the game that can hammer instead of her. How is her expressing her distate bad for the game state?

I'm talking about the baton pass not a lynch

[Dannflor]

People weren't trying very hard to listen to her reads. People were actually essentially asking her to shut up, ESPECIALLY S_S.

I asked Sakura MULTIPLE times to help me understand her reads. She ignored my posts.

[Dannflor]

Too much of the game is stuck in what is going to happen. And I don't think any amount of teeth pulling is going to change that. That's bad for the game state. I think moving on to a REGULAR lynch phase would be very healthy and make it much EASIER to form reads. This phase it is possible, but it feels 2x harder.

[Dannflor]

Like this phase vs. a lynch phase is so radically different in how wagons are built

You see that right?

[Dannflor]

I don't understand why you wouldn't have us at least try?

I mean you can try, you certainly can. The problem is is that I am happy with the current choice of baton killings and I want to progress the game. The best way to do that is to get to the next phase imo.

[Dannflor]

Anyhow, I have to be responsible and go to sleep now.

Enter is like, lock town now.

Goodies is +town equity.

S_S I have a very weak town read on, but I continue to fight scum reads on him because no one has expressed a good reason to scum read him yet in my opinion.

Uh I'm good with the plan I'll follow it blah blah whatever needs to be said about that

ok goodnight

[Dannflor]

I think it's a lot more scary to know that you could easily just die because someone decides to pass the baton the other direction because while they agreed to whatever the hive queen says (mostly) they actually disagree with you specifically and now they're gonna make sure you die. Do you realize how much power each individual player has? How much power the threat of dying because one person thinks you're probably scum is? I think we have a lot more power this game than you're allowing people to think.

I feel like only the last few people in the chain have any sort of power? Am I wrong?

[Dannflor]

Enter I see where you're coming from and I know you what you want to do

I respect it

I'm just pessimistic about it and I don't think where we're at right now is terrible. I'm happier to take the easier route and move on to the next phase right now.

[Dannflor]

I hate to say this but I think I legitimately want Dannflor dead.

I didn't see it earlier but I definitely see it now.

yikes

[Dannflor]

Now you're both reading me wrong for completely separate but equally wrong reasons

[Dannflor]

well that hurts

[Dannflor]

Enter I see where you're coming from and I know you what you want to do

I respect it

I'm just pessimistic about it and I don't think where we're at right now is terrible. I'm happier to take the easier route and move on to the next phase right now.

I'm really sorry buddy but I cannot see this thought process coming from town and you can't explain it to me adequately. :/

I don't think anything hurts me more this game than to say that I really want to see you through to the end.

You're gonna hate it more when you see that I'm town

[Dannflor]

btw I'm not hurt your scum reading me

I understand why you are

This is an Enter game logic think you are stuck on

There is barely any substance to his reads, his logic is so absent that he can't explain his reasoning to the slightest degree.

this is the only reason I'm a little hurt because I don't actually think I'm playing that bad and I know i'm town

but I'll get over it

Goodnight for real now

[Dannflor]

wait enter

I'm in bed now and won't continue to be in the thread after this but I just realized

literally

your own hydra partner

wants to get this phase over with and also claims to not have very solid reads

you have to see where I'm coming from here

[Dannflor]

Pass: Something_Smart

[Dannflor]

I'm sorry how the hell am I not cleared after those flips

[Dannflor]

I talked to Ank and she explained why the double scum flip doesn't clear hiim and the rest of his play is really scummy

oh

[Dannflor]

the fact that he's actually got interactions with Gameplay

ye because i got him to make the scummiest post of the game on page fucking 4

[Dannflor]

I'm uncomfortable with how good your reads would have had to be this game for you to be town.

I'll take this as a compliment

[Dannflor]

idk what to do

I guess I'm gonna try to find the last scum when I get the time but I don't think I'm stopping my death

my play is very scummy this game apparently despite my best efforts and my reads are apparently too good sooo *shrug*

I don't think it's possible for me to dig myself out of this hole and somehow obv town given the reads people have on me, nor do I have the motivation to even if it was

which is fine, if we win this game it's all fine, which looks inevitable at this point

my WIM is just very low right now

[Dannflor]

and to be clear I'm not trying to garner sympathy or whine about how you're all reading me wrong

it's obvious I can improve my play so that doesn't happen in the future

I'm just trying to explain I'm not really gonna fight my lynch because I don't think that's going to produce anything except frustration

[Dannflor]

I'm fine with a PM lynch but this is the part of the day phase that I would like to go on for a long time

I'll do some actual playing tomorrow

gn all

[Dannflor]

I'm sorry how the hell am I not cleared after those flips

Cleared? Why would you be cleared?

I feel like:

enter: let's set up counter wagons to wisdom/gameplay!

dannflor: no

kinda town spews me but w/e im not broken up about it anymore

[Dannflor]

im just misunderstood town i swear

[Dannflor]

gameplay s_s yukzuk

who opposes killing those three

I think S_S and yukzuk are spewed town given how wisdom pursued these 3 reads after

[Dannflor]

but i suppose sheep rc is a more enjoyable game than mafia around here as per usual, so eh

if i had my way id obv baton nacho and kill in {yukzuk, s_s, gameplay, danflor, pmysterious}

btw ppl who think im scum with PM also think that wisdom listed his entire scum team in his kill list

[Dannflor]

im just misunderstood town i swear

I have doubts

yeah yeah join the club

[Dannflor]

I'm not

That's Enter trying to do what in his mind is the ultimate pro-town thing to do

I know what he was thinking even though I disagree with it

He's not scum here

which I know means I'm scum in your solve but I'd encourage you to look outside of that before you die because neither of us are scum