Baton Pass [Game Over!]

[Wisdom]

hai

[Wisdom]

votes are good if you supertownread someone and want both to save them and enable them to choose the next person to save

aka dont save rc

[Wisdom]

we could rvs still
who you "randomly" choose to save could be telling

VOTE: nacho

[Wisdom]

the answers to both your questions are

because hes rc
because hes nacho

[Wisdom]

is rvs ever random

[Wisdom]

is rvs ever random

I mean, it's usually arbitrary, which is very similar.

not really. In rvs i usually vote someone i want to sort, or provoke, or something to that effect. Its the beginning of scumhunting. I imagine it is that way for most people

[Wisdom]

exactly my thoughts

[Wisdom]

how do you think scum approach this setup?

[Wisdom]

you prompted me to ask because of the serious thing but it's for anyone @gameplay

[Wisdom]

People I will never support for first round baton:
RC hydra
Ankamius hydra
Nacho
Wisdom

I understand why this list exists and i agree.

I dont see what would be wrong with nacho? Id like him not dying n1

[Wisdom]

I dont see what would be wrong with nacho? Id like him not dying n1

He wont die if he's scum!

and you think hes scum because?

[Wisdom]

I dont see what would be wrong with nacho? Id like him not dying n1

He wont die if he's scum!

and you think hes scum because?

I never said that.

then what did you say
Why do you agree with nacho not baton passed

[Wisdom]

Your vote seems to be driven by not wanting nacho to die because he's nacho, and not because of you thinking he's aligned with town or you're scum.

My vote is irrelevant to you agreeing with nacho being in a list of "not baton pass these people"

[Wisdom]

if scum aren't terrible theyll 100% kill nacho over rc
rc is negative utility if used correctly

[Wisdom]

you deduce information by the players who want other players removed.

yo
lets make nacho bp
yes/no

[Wisdom]

if nacho is "some guy" to you then i wasnt talking to you

[Wisdom]

youre not getting info from that anyway as its wifom
Id rather have nacho around more
@sakura

[Wisdom]

Basically what RC is suggesting is that instead of passing based on our reads we use baton pass mechanic as a way of having 2 additional lynches.

but we'll do that anyway by batonpassing to townreads

[Wisdom]

Im going to townhunt and suggest my townreads get the baton
rc can do whatever

[Wisdom]

Wisdom what is your obsession with RC?

?

[Wisdom]

rc will be easy to read because nancy is easy to read
you dont need to lose your mind in trying to read rc

[Wisdom]

Wisdom what is your obsession with RC?

?

Much of your posts have some sort extraneous inclusion of RC and you even "called" him out before he started posting.

im guessing you havent played with rc before?

[Wisdom]

So Wisdom if nacho is 100% getting shot over RC, then if RC gets shot N1 what does that tell you.
If Nacho's BP you cant gleam info from that.

This idea that only nacho and RC are eligible for night 1 kills is deeply silly.

Well yes, but i rather just BP my strongest townread than BP someone because they carry a certain name.

im not against that
if i townread someone more i wont hesitate to baton them over nacho

[Wisdom]

i dont particularly care about what rc likes

[Wisdom]

and no im not trying to trigger him im mostly trying to ignore him but if what hes saying looks like it will affect people into doing bs ill step in

[Wisdom]

dude
rc is bad
yet rc does affect games
i cannot try and change rc, it simply cannot be done
so i just try and lessen his influence
is this more clear

[Wisdom]

like im not calling out rc
saying nacho is more important than rc
or saying dont give rc the option to batonpass over other people
are telling other people to consider rc being rc
Im not trying to converse with rc. My only question to him was because i wanted to know how he feels about nacho

[Wisdom]

yukzuk feels like he found an easy entrypoint to me

[Wisdom]

yukzuk who would you baton right now if you had to?

[Wisdom]

why s_s? looks like hes an option for many and idk why

[Wisdom]

i just realized bp can also mean baton pass in addition to bulletproof

when i said and read bp before i was talking about bulletproof

[Wisdom]

dunno
im not even sure everyone remembers the first baton pass makes the person bp

[Wisdom]

duh

[Wisdom]

hm
all my first thoughts were players already in the game
I have one more thought but we'll see

[Wisdom]

I think it's best to treat baton mechanic as two extra lynches.

isnt it already two extra lynches
or do you mean decide the two people now, then just baton everyone else

[Wisdom]

I'm not the best at explaining feelings. Let's just say that I have an intuition for Wisdom's alignment from reading lots of his games.

youve only played one game with me and i was scum, thats prolly it

[Wisdom]

This caught my eye:

i just realized bp can also mean baton pass in addition to bulletproof

when i said and read bp before i was talking about bulletproof

And then this:

hm
all my first thoughts were players already in the game
I have one more thought but we'll see

I think it's best to treat baton mechanic as two extra lynches.

isnt it already two extra lynches
or do you mean decide the two people now, then just baton everyone else

There's also the stuff Yuk pointed to earlier, which wasn't scummy alone but definitely fit a scum Wisdom narrative.

could you explain what scum motivation i have in those..?

[Wisdom]

Seriously speaking tho, Nancy's posts indicate the hydra is town.

agreed

[Wisdom]

Anyone legimately townread Wisdom?

i do

[Wisdom]

I'd propose Wisdom/Goodies at the moment.

2nd

-bit

um
why am i getting scumread

[Wisdom]

So far I like Shoshin, and she brings up a good point against Wisdom.

im starting to get annoyed
What good point? Shoshin literally pointed at 3 of my posts saying just that they caught her eye and ignored me when i asked her to explain

[Wisdom]

Isn't Shoshin echoing my sentiments on Wisdom with the addition of her self awareness point?

finally you say something i agree with
but your sentiments are equally bullshit

[Wisdom]

I find Wisdom's response to Shoshin a little scummy, although I'm not sure I buy her initial case.

What case? She just pointed to three posts and said nothing about why they make me scum. Whats scummy about asking for an explanation?

[Wisdom]

I'm sorry, who are you accusing of worshiping him?

A considerable percentage of the site

sadly

[Wisdom]

I am pretty shocked this is meeting with agreement

im not
these are the same people who are batoning rc over nacho

[Wisdom]

shoshin does not look like scum to me. It makes sense for her to scumread me since she only has a single game with me where i was scum, so she doesnt know better and thinks she sees scum me everywhere. I suppose she could try and imitate that as scum, but eh

[Wisdom]

but i suppose sheep rc is a more enjoyable game than mafia around here as per usual, so eh

if i had my way id obv baton nacho and kill in {yukzuk, s_s, gameplay, danflor, pmysterious}

[Wisdom]

goodies town

[Wisdom]

i like it, keep doing it

[Wisdom]

rc is tunneling shoshin
people are sheeping rc
pretty much

[Wisdom]

not great not terrible
maybe above null just a little bit

[Wisdom]

not great not terrible
maybe above null just a little bit

Are you sheeping on to Shoshin as well, or are you in a different camp? I ask because if Shoshin flipped scum would that do anything to Ceph?

neh i dont think shoshin is scum
i don't see any connections to ceph either

[Wisdom]

lolwat

how is it called when you feel a person is scum and all you do in the game is push them until theyre dead

im one of the most guilty of this in ms, id know

[Wisdom]

and usually with arguments only you understand because theyre related to feelings or experience and not logical things

[Wisdom]

and even further, you then attempt to sort everyone else while having your tunnelee as flipped scum in your mind

namely what rc is doing

[Wisdom]

yeah ok enter. Rc tunneling is a thing everyone knows about and i feel silly even having to discuss this. You can keep your worship opinions for yourself but don't tell me hes not tunneling when its the only thing he ever does

[Wisdom]

That's not tunneling, that's hunting for associatives,

In order to hunt for associatives you need scumflips. Do you know what its called when a scumread equals scumflip? Guess.

[Wisdom]

Like i fucking do it all the time. I try to call whole scumteams because im that confident in my reads. But i will never say "im not tunneling". I know im doing it.

[Wisdom]

Iirc, back when I started we didn't consider a player to have tunnel vision until they'd pushed a player for several days and refused any alternatives to that push (often refusing to acknowledge other players whatsoever with the exception of begging their assistance with the lynch).

-E

Your only good point is that it has not been long in terms of time, ill give you that. Guess reading all these pages made me lose track of that. But knowing rc, i doubt hes going to change his mind so does time really matter

[Wisdom]

you're tunneling RC

not scumreading rc, in fact towreading the slot, so

[Wisdom]

is that gif? I doubt bitmap remembers what i look like

[Wisdom]

the first becomes bp, otherwise other baton passes are not important

[Wisdom]

If RC is town and RC says shoshin is scum, then Shoshin is scum. (

umm

[Wisdom]

Like, if he read someone correctly 100% of the time so far as he states, assuming that he'll get it wrong this time is a gambler'a fallacy.

thats bs and you know it

[Wisdom]

Once a Baton Holder has been decided upon by majority vote (or plurality, if no majority is reached by deadline), all discussion ceases.

oh lol i missed this

[Wisdom]

hard to do so when everyone wants to bp him and sheeps his reads

if people ignored him i would be cool

@enter

[Wisdom]

I find Shoshin scummy for a similar reason I find Gay Dance scummy. I did not like how they only self voted after people started saying they were town.

dont think thats scummy
its pointless to vote yourself if other people dont vote you ie have a real chance to get batoned

[Wisdom]

gif without even looking im positive rc hasnt read anyone 100% correctly

[Wisdom]

i do not have to prove you wrong when you havent proved yourself right
its your job to present to me how hes read her 100% correctly since youre making this argument

[Wisdom]

Please just treat him like another player and let's move on with the game.

Usually when I see any player deadset on a scumread, I will hear it out and then if it turns out to be wrong I'll lynch them with no regrets.

What I'm afraid of is if people won't consider lynching RC if Shoshin flips town.

why would we lynch rc when shoshin flips town
bad tunnelers are bad tunnelers, not scum

[Wisdom]

nah im lazy enough to be confident that ∀ is completely unlikely

[Wisdom]

viewtopic.php?t=77435&f=51&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

Town rc, town shoshin, scumread on shoshin

are we done

[Wisdom]

town and nulltown

[Wisdom]

Anyway, now that I had my fun with lollogic, I'll talk about reads now.

There were actually few things that pinged me re: Shoshin.

1. She showed confidence on reading RC and then, well, just assumed that RC is town this game. Last time I played with town her she was going all out trying to continuously sort RC. This plus voting CC for protection looks like it could be trying to buddy up to avoid conflict with RC. Because RC tends to bite less if you don't call him scum ya know?

2. The timing on her vote change.
Now not too long before her switch, RC posted things that could possibly indicate that he was not townreading Shoshin.

I think that Shoshin is 100% not going to die N1.

Shoshin definitely shouldn’t die but statistically, we’re still the most likely to get shot.

I suppose that I could be doing both but I'm not doing both because

I have a specific scumread in mind and I don't feel like pursuing other people until I spend more time on them.

Now I don't know if RC actually meant Shoshin here, but I think it is very plausible that someone as self-conscious as Shoshin would definitely pick them up as a red flag.
Scum-Shoshin would now want RC slot dead, hence moving her vote away from RC.
Like, the timing is just way too perfect for it to be coincidence.

Don’t these two points contradict one another?

yep thats what i thought too
if she wanted not to provoke rc the vote change doesnt make sense

[Wisdom]

There's no way I pick up my role PM in this game if I'm scum

?
You cant know youre scum before you pick up your role pm
or you mean confirm

[Wisdom]

gameplay s_s yukzuk

who opposes killing those three

[Wisdom]

I also kinda feel like Wisdom is being fed games to cite and use as reasoning.

i searched and grabbed the first result that came up

[Wisdom]

no that was irrelevant to gif's point
i dont care who you scumread and why, i care that people don't believe your lies

[Wisdom]

what have you done to progress this gamestate

[Wisdom]

trust tell or not replacing out because scum is terrible
man up and learn to play scum

[Wisdom]

Nothing

then thats why

[Wisdom]

so you post empty fillers as town?

[Wisdom]

who are the three people youd kill if you had to choose right now? @s_s

[Wisdom]

What exactly is your read on Sakura Hana that you've been dancing around?

dont have one and i usually misread her anyway

[Wisdom]

who are the three people youd kill if you had to choose right now? @s_s

That's not a helpful question.

Shoshin and Cephrir, and if Shoshin flips town then CC, otherwise Goodies.

add stupid nonsensical reads to the reasons i scumread you then

[Wisdom]

either I have correct reads or I'm scum

its okay when you say it, we know your issues
other people, no.

[Wisdom]

no ank still the same gamestate

[Wisdom]

I think this gamestate will only get better if nacho gets more involved

[Wisdom]

Goodies are being scumread

are they? Im townreading them

[Wisdom]

Wisdom wouldn't be killed because Shoshin

Not following
If shoshin is town and my scumreads are scum theres a good chance ill be killed

[Wisdom]

nancy is the strong scum player?

damn, ive yet to play with scum nancy

[Wisdom]

Speaking of that, Wisdom going now out of his way to prove this wrong is kinda weird.

um
gif kept asking for it

[Wisdom]

Speaking of that, Wisdom going now out of his way to prove this wrong is kinda weird.

um
gif kept asking for it

Oh yeah, i forgot he asked specifically for at least a single instance of T-T where he scumread her.
However, you keep pushing it as a "he read her wrong once so he's wrong here too." after that (i think?)

no

[Wisdom]

gameplay s_s yukzuk

who opposes killing those three

I do.

S_S is town.

why?
what about the other two?

[Wisdom]

Nacho doesn't deserve the bp. Sorry but not sorry since he isn't doing anything deserving of it.

^ This pretty much.

give him time

[Wisdom]

Yeah sorry RC, I changed my mind i dont think Shoshin is scum here.

you had me worried you'd become a mindless rc sheep for a minute

[Wisdom]

rc is town guys. Theres no reason to doubt that. Just ignore him and shoshin and focus on finding actual scum

I repeat. S_S, yukzuk, gameplay. Ill throw in pmysterious as a bonus.

[Wisdom]

nacho what are your thoughts on wisdom as the second baton pass kill?

would be happy if it happened, but if I had infinite power my preference would be to baton pass kill someone else and lynch wisdom

you dont actually want that
you just want to see me under heat

[Wisdom]

gameplay is still scum

when are you guys figuring s_s and yukzuk are as well?

[Wisdom]

shoshin is town

[Wisdom]

nacho what are your thoughts on wisdom as the second baton pass kill?

would be happy if it happened, but if I had infinite power my preference would be to baton pass kill someone else and lynch wisdom

you dont actually want that
you just want to see me under heat

i want you to be town.
but, failing that, i want the satisfaction of killing you.

is that so bad?

nah i want the same from you always

[Wisdom]

s_s for fluffy nothingness and yukzuk for scummy questions and stances
also poe

[Wisdom]

Another way of phrasing: Wisdom is the single most valuable VT flip in the game and also has some scum equity.

another way of phrasing is rc always wants to lynch me because he can't read me and theres a non zero possibility i could be scum

[Wisdom]

its not lynching phase, remember? locked thread until the two deaths @oversoul

[Wisdom]

but we're doing the baton lynches thing so you dont actually make a baton pass choice

[Wisdom]

i mean we're still deciding the second scum so you can input your opinion

[Wisdom]

so comprehensible guide for all

Oversoul - we're saving
YukzYuk
Shoshin - we're saving
Goodies (Anon. 3-headed hydra)
Nachomamma8 - we're saving
Oh (Enter + Ankamius) - we're saving
PMysterious
Gay Dance Gone Wrong (Bitmap + GuyInFreezer) - we're saving
Cephrir - we're saving
Dannflor
Celestial Coordinates (Nancy Drew 39 + RadiantCowbells) - we're saving
Wisdom - we're saving
Something_Smart
Sakura Hana - we're saving
gameplay506 - we're not saving

you all get to decide who else we're not saving

[Wisdom]

Wisdom - we're saving

You dont decide that

cmon we both know nobody actually wants to remove me from a large d1
not even rc does despite appearences

[Wisdom]

was it a question?

[Wisdom]

more revolution of the sheep, me likes

[Wisdom]

and then a day lynch on Wisdom

where did i hear that again
oh yeah, echoing nacho

[Wisdom]

no it means a good town player said something and youre echoing it

[Wisdom]

and yuk doing that after nacho cornered gameplay points to yuk, buddy of gameplay, getting intimidated

[Wisdom]

we're already flipping gameplay and nacho doesn't want me flipped

youre not reading

[Wisdom]

Def a scumclaim

Get on the same page boys.

Gameplay dies always. Wisdom should die.

^buddy

[Wisdom]

Def a scumclaim

Get on the same page boys.

Gameplay dies always. Wisdom should die.

Not so sure on this.
Why is Wisdom scum, exactly?
Also gameplay hasn’t had much time, dude; if I hadn’t popped in earlier people would still be screaming for me and my buddies’ death, we’re a hydra and we haven’t had much time; he’s one guy, and he has low content, sure, but what about it is scummy?

^not a buddy

[Wisdom]

shoshin get with the program. yuk is the other kill

[Wisdom]

mate scum talk time expires when theyre caught

[Wisdom]

oh cmon nacho

[Wisdom]

Nacho's right. I need to stop talking about this.

heres something different to talk about

gameplay and yuk or gameplay and pm or gameplay and dann

[Wisdom]

Nacho's right. I need to stop talking about this.

heres something different to talk about

gameplay and yuk or gameplay and pm or gameplay and dann

Dann felt town to me, similar level of empathy he showed in another game when I came under pressure. I'm strongly against killing his slot.

so yuk then?

[Wisdom]

Why do you townread RC, Wisdom? I don't understand this, especially coming from you.

you dont see clearly because of the heat but theres no real reason to think hes not town here
plus nancy

[Wisdom]

i dont need pointed out reasons to townread people shoshin, thats where our thinking differs i guess

[Wisdom]

and so are wisdom and ceph

[Wisdom]

nacho when i flip town who are the "deepwolves" who cemented my death here?

[Wisdom]

spoiler; there arent any. This is as simple as gameplay/s_s/yukzuk and town is being poisoned by rc.

[Wisdom]

but i really didn't expect you to be okay with this bs
rc is rc
shoshin doesnt know better because shes only seen scum me
bitmap hasnt played with me in ages
and the rest are rc sheep
even sakura is against this and you arent

[Wisdom]

The big pieces that bother me about his approach to the game are first that his reads seem incredibly safe and centered almost entirely on lynchbait.

also lol. Ive pushed and mislynched some of the strongest townies as scum. Im not some newbscum to apply "safe reads" tells to me. And you know that much.

[Wisdom]

He's acting like he will have forever to figure out any potential deepwolves even though he's presumably not getting the baton passed to him and I think there's usually much more sense of urgency in town!Wisdom than there is here.

and i still dont get this part
what deepwolves?
ive found two certain scum, one almost certain and i have a leftover poe of two.
what more urgency is needed?

[Wisdom]

I don't mind that but gameplay is still scum

[Wisdom]

> opens page 84 to continue reading
> there are 124 pages

..okay

[Wisdom]

Apparently RC believes that scum me would defend a partner this hard.

That assume Wisdom is flipping scum

That's what RC believes would happen.
It's much less likely if i were scum here that i would oppose a flip i know would be town.
It's also much less likely i would oppose RC hard if i were scum, as I've already done 0 opposition to him and let him help me win.

no, rc does not have a read on me and even admitted as much. He wants to policy me because he cant read me and he presents it as a "gain info" lynch. This is his default stance towards me in all games.

[Wisdom]

Why would you obstruct a lynch that will almost certainly happen anyway?

it wont actually happen though
unless you do it while im sleeping like you posted 40 pages

[Wisdom]

Yukz is town

nope.

[Wisdom]

if wis is town and gameplay is scum I'm definitely going after someone in wisdom's scumreads.

stop lying
youll keep defending yukzuk and s_s and go after pm or something

[Wisdom]

I decided on a new game called "Try to have better reads than RC by the end of the game, if you do, you win".

sole reason i still play with rc

[Wisdom]

Shoshin, I feel like Wisdom would be fighting his Lynch harder as scum instead of almost just keeping over like he is now..

lol
i love how people just keep expecting unrealistic things

[Wisdom]

Shoshin, I feel like Wisdom would be fighting his Lynch harder as scum instead of almost just keeping over like he is now..

That's a fair point. He seems to have given up, which isn't typical of scum him -- is that something you've seen him do as town?

you have to be kidding right
how have i given up when ive given you both the ideal lynch pair for today and a possible gamesolve in general
like what the fuck am i expected to do here
if you expected more real time interactions as if this is 2015 or something then you're out of luck as i dont have that kind of time

[Wisdom]

@thread hey what if we killed Goodies

nope

[Wisdom]

Literally yuki:
>Early game: I think wisdom's scum
>Early game: Who's up for killing wisdom/gameplay (Then proceeds to townread everyone that agrees)
>Middle game: This is the baton order
>Late game: We're leaving last the people threatening to disrupt the order so they go here.

And that's literally all i remember from yuki
Just pulling strings and RC hardtownreading that for some reason.

rc is hardtownreading that because hes a good little sheep

[Wisdom]

He's just posting random comments and going hurr durr motherfuckers look at me I have a solve also nacho's the goat btw.

this is not inaccurate, you're just not saying how it makes me scum
because just like rc what you actually want is to pl me without caring to read me
i bet youre an alt of someone who is similarly hating towards me everytime?

[Wisdom]

And when it became clear he isn't being a memer

Then its obvious he's come into the game with an agenda

if the agenda is that i want people not to idolize rc then im guilty

[Wisdom]

Wisdom's been given fucking time what the fuck are we doing right now.

He hasn't been a presence in this thread

imagine being caught by someone who "hasnt been a presence"

[Wisdom]

He's had time to push my ass, we even had an exchange, and he resorts to his case being "uhh scummy stances and stuff"
For someone who wants me dead this much when he's about to die, he should be trying a little fucking harder then going off of weak one liners that don't even work.

yep because im known for making cases

[Wisdom]

those pages were very boring
bye

you know, im feeling like i should probably peace out of this game, let's just let RC dictate every lynch, and have fun NOT playing mafia.

if anything good happened in this game is you seeing rc for who he is
you really scared me both with that post in the other thread and your sheep behavior here

[Wisdom]

I think Dann/gameplay is the baton kill maybe?

dann actually looks townier now

[Wisdom]

i think i want gameplay/ss most
oka is also a little townier now even if awful

[Wisdom]

shoshin you need to stop

[Wisdom]

rc can we kill ss instead of me
you wont regret it i promise

[Wisdom]

But whatever. RC won't get lynched, it's impossible unless I lynch his partners first. This is why I didn't push RC in Open 756.

who are his partners then? youre trying to lynch kagami and me, are we his partners?

[Wisdom]

Is it better if I actually devote time to disproving Shoshin's statements or if I just ignore her

personally im not reading them i imagine most people dont

[Wisdom]

goodies let this 1v1 die
id rather shoshin talked about other people

[Wisdom]

wow nice one
totally didnt expect to win this