Pick your Poison 3 (Game Over)

[Ether]

vote: 3-shot roleblocker

vote: godfather

vote: rolecop

, I guess.

I for one am not touching that janitor-encryptor.

[Ether]

Daytalking is mostly harmless. (I could give examples, but I'm not going to.) It's the janitor aspect I'm afraid of.

I don't think the rolecop

enhances

the roleblocker so much as it renders it obsolete. I think I'd prefer the vig over the encryptor, though I keep going back and forth on all three.

Having said that, Mellowed needs to give some analysis of the other roles. 13 is...I'd say non-committal, though I realize that other people have posted without voting at all. But it bugs me that he takes a route

only

when it's easy.

Also, Incognito is obvscum. Just sayin'.

Don't scare him until they've decided who the goon is.

[Ether]

I believe that the godfather has just been hammered.

unvote: rolecop

vote: 2-shot vig

[Ether]

vote: 2-shot vig

[Ether]

Vote: Incognito

, of course.

Q21, why the change of heart?

[Ether]

Incognito's Coronvote reads like he's trying not to draw attention to his OMGUS statement. I still like my vote.

Well obviously you have a completely different opinion about the game of Mafia from me. I am of the opinion that a town can win even in a "Mountainous" situation if the town isn't lazy and it scum hunts correctly.

Well, yeah. My issue is that the logical extension would be {godfather,

roleblocker,

rolecop}: a daytalking janitor hurts even in a mountainous, while a roleblocker is harmless. In fact, I'd argue that roleblocker is the weakest of the five roles

anyway.

({Incognito, JDodge} are the only players who ever had votes on rolecop and not roleblocker, and JDodge switched over quickly.)

Meta-game me and look for instances where I've been accused of being scum while I was aligned on the side of the town. You'll see that a pretty good majority of those times the scum themselves were doing the accusing.

From what I've seen: Patrick (town),

Tajo

(town), Guardian (scum, but lategame--he had

no other choice

). There are probably other games. My meta on you allows for OMGUS, but there was an unfamiliar panicked vibe to 33.

Mellowed, why'd you vote for me specifically (out of {Coron, Ether, Marmalade, Sarcastro}) and why'd you switch?

Picture this: for whatever reason we mislynch on D1, the scum make their regular kill on Night 1 plus the vig makes a successful extra kill. Then for whatever reason we mislynch on D2 then the same happens night 2. All of a sudden we are down 6 townies.

Four of those deaths would be common to both situations. The vig means that the town has one less lynch--I'm not wild about this, but I treasure information.

Hey, here's something interesting: the supersaint and its hammerer are both janitorproof. (I've clarified this already.) Until the janitor's shot is out, pressured supersaints should act and claim like vanillas, and the town should vote on who should hammer each individual. (Of course, this assumes that there are supersaints.)

For example, Mellowed should hammer Incognito.

Serious suggestion.

[Ether]

You did not vote for Sarcastro. You voted for me. While Sarcastro and I have this saddening habit of never being active in the same games at the same times, we are distinct entities.

This has

definitely

not answered my question. Why did you vote for me, as opposed to {Coron, Marmalade, Sarcastro}? What do you believe about us vig-supporters currently? What prompted you to move to Incognito?

A janitor is the standard name for a mafia role which prevents roles from being revealed on death--the ugly half of the encryptor. This one only affects lynches; therefore, I believe supersaints should fakeclaim vanilla when pressured, and towns should treat vanilla claims identically to supersaint claims. If there are supersaints, voting for hammerers generates more information, and there is a chance that the janitor shot will be wasted altogether. Understood?

I'm thinking some other things, but they can wait.

[Ether]

My stalling to

unvote; vote: ashmite84

was a trap to note where/if Incognito would OMGUS--my inner stubborn says he's being bussed, but the speed and composition of this wagon does creep me out.

Normally I'd say his reaction was an excuse to avoid the excellent scumhunting opportunities of being wagonned, but if his replacement request is legitimate, that sort of changes things. I'll be emotionally supportive here.

Deep breath.

Incognito, we love you. Don't avoid the excellent scumhunting opportunities of being wagonned.

Don't you dare get replaced.

[Ether]

...you weren't voting me.

[Ether]

So yeah, I'm pretty sure this is the right wagon, and I'd like to hear the reasoning of anybody *coughEthercough* who doesn't think this is another nail in Incognito's coffin of scumminess.

I unvoted Incognito to keep him pacified while I gathered my thoughts, but I'm not interested in moving back anymore.

His wagon was opportunistic to a scary degree; it creeped me out long before I actually unvoted. Originally I felt it could be a gambit--his outburst made me change my mind. (Also, I think encryption would make a scumbag take a bussing more calmly. There's your obligatory "daytalk is good" remark for this game.)

This means that Incognito has a big scummy wagon that probably does not share his alignment. So he's town.

PS. So's q21.

PPS.

unvote; vote: Mellowed Man

[Ether]

Uh.

So can we get more fighting between Incognito/q21 and their wagonners? Stuff from Flameaxe and Coron?

Why am I backing Incognito up after voting him a page ago? I'll never get used to that.

Alternatively, can we just lynch Mellowed? Ashmite should hammer.

Nothin' wrong with an early L-2 in a game this size: you can get info and the wagon itself can be telling.

What did you get?

I'll also be on vacation soon.

[Ether]

...

Mellowed needs more death.

Sarcastro is horribly behind the times

and

he's stopped posting arguments. (Heh.)

I have strong reason to believe that Incognito's replacement request was serious at the time.

I, too, am walking out the door.

[Ether]

Ahahahahaha we suck.

I still haven't seen a good argument for why Incognito's not scum. All I see is "I'm afraid of how fast the bandwagon is going", which translates approximately into "I'm too much of a bloody coward to actually risk lynching anyone until there's a deadline and I'm forced to". That's just

bad play.

It was more "I'm afraid of how the bandwagon is primarily composed of scummy newbies unwilling to display any original thought, which the wagonnee was clearly not expecting"; lately your own adamance has also bothered me. (I am aware that {Mellowed, Babygirl, Incrediball} were town.)

First of all, how do we know Incog was being bussed? And if he was being bussed, we can't be sure scum would be calmer about it because they could daytalk and soothe each other's feelings.

I thought Incognito was scummy, but I also thought his wagon was scummy. As I've said, the latter was scaring me more and more even before Incognito cracked--but I wanted his reaction before I moved my vote. (He hadn't posted for a while; I would have considered it an associative tell with his wagoners had he failed to OMGUS. He failed that test, but his outburst led me to the conclusion that they weren't together anyway.)

I do think bussing would be more coordinated and less emotional in a game with daytalking.

I do not find Q21 to be scummy. I just...don't. He just looks like a weakwilled newbie to me--not at all sinister. His explanation for the encryptor flip made perfect sense and I can't see why that in particular is still being pushed. I'm not sure what else to say here.

I vaguely think JDodge's and Incognito's initial rolevotes, which both lacked the roleblocker, were townish. (With two hiders, the roleblocker is a lot stronger and the rolecop is a lot weaker; the combination would have allowed the rolecop to snipe to its

normal

capacity. I am annoyed that I missed this when reviewing.)

vote: Dave

; Xtoxm needs to start attacking people now.

P.S. Trying to catch up with games.

Yes.

[Ether]

I was still thinking about bussing at that point.

Hey--what

do

you think about q21?

[Ether]

While talking about the possibility of me being a supersaint?

Yes. I consider this analogous to demanding a claim, but with none of the risks of outing a power role.

The veil of secrecy around Elvis, Coron and especially Flameaxe goes completely over my head. Would it hurt to spell your reads out?

I'd like Xtoxm to hammer, for, um, lurking and doing the same thing Coron did except a multitude of people aren't defending Xtoxm.

Actually, I'd like Dave to hammer Xtoxm--

unvote; vote: Xtoxm

. No chance we can do that instead?

[Ether]

JDodge, Incognito, Armlx. (Don't get me wrong--I'm not just trying to appease them by avoiding Coron; I acknowledge that there probably

is

something I'm missing.)

By the way, I think Elmo is less likely to be scum and more likely to be pulling a stupid "hey don't nightkill me" routine.

The correct response is to nightkill him. Just saying.

[Ether]

JDodge--I want to know what you caught so I can tune my scumdar accordingly. Your stance is pointless and

elitist

, but I'm too lazy to go through your posts and make a response that sounds like you wrote it.

Incognito, why didn't you question JDodge about Coron? Why aren't you voting Xtoxm?

Elmo, it breaks my heart to see what you do to yourself. BREAKS MY FUCKING HEART, YOU BASTARD.

Scot, do you think Flameaxe is scummy?

I'm calling him Scot this game. ^_^

[Ether]

I was voting him through Day 1 because he hasn't done much this game,

I noticed. That's why I asked. I don't like your answer.

Why aren't you voting Xtoxm?

My reads of people are badly in flux.

That's not an answer. Asking Xtoxm about some lame failure to summarize isn't an answer, either. Why is your read of

Xtoxm

badly in flux?

I'm being thick as hell this game. I understand the method to your madness now.

Unvote

Flameaxe is doing exactly what I would expect him to do as scum but yet JDodge thinks he's cleared for different reasons than I've mentioned.

You don't think he's cleared?

I don't care much for your secretiveness.

Heh.

Why do you think Elmo is less likely to be scum than what you've mentioned above? Have you seen Elmo do this before as town?

I've seen him angst about how he gets nightkilled early, even when he tries to hold back for self-preservational reasons, and I'm under the impression that he's getting worse and worse. I've seen

other

people do this sort of thing--Glork from Normal 60 on Day 1 comes to mind. You can wagon him into shape if you'd like--I definitely want him to get his act together

soon

--but I don't really find him sinister.

I'd be up for an Incoglynch after all.

[Ether]

JDodge, I can't find any decent town tell Coron has committed. I looked. My best guess is that it has something to do with this mistake, but I don't think that's actually valid: I think

if

mafia mentioned it at all, it would be more "Cool, hider's dead" than "cool, hider hid with us."

I hope you have something better. If so, I'll be the first to admit that I can't find it solo. I am thoroughly annoyed with your

elitist

refusal to lend a hand.

Uh, Incognito--why didn't you question JDodge about Coron just now, when you were questioning him about Flameaxe?

I think Scot's point was something you should have thought about anyway.

I believe the ongoing game you spoke of just ended. The generalization lodged in my mind is "Xtoxm puts effort in as town but not as scum." I associate "effort" with "names," mostly. Is my meta inaccurate?

I'll

unvote

for your responses.

[Ether]

I really, really,

really

don't want to remind you that Dave isn't clear due to encryption. Back to business.

Now more than one person is questioning him about it and still he's not replying. Is this my fault too?

I don't know what you're talking about. I don't like that you attacked JDodge's secrecy when questioning him about Flameaxe, after supporting it earlier, and at the same time you seem to have dropped Coron entirely.

It's not even JDodge's keyboard I want to hear that stuff from anymore, unless he's the only one who knows what he's referring to.

I still think Xtoxm's posts in this game are almost pure filler. His Flameaxevote 4 days ago was the most recent finger-pointing he did; he's active-lurking.

There's like about four people (Coron, Flameaxe, Elmo, and Sarcastro) all of whom are experienced players and are completely flying under the radar. And I almost forgot

Marmalade

was even playing.

Agreed.

(I've been issuing prods behind the scenes when I remember. Marmalade and Coron have both picked them up; apparently, Patrick even reprodded Marmalade today on his own. He's in danger of being replaced.)

JDodge: Coron, Elvis and Flameaxe are town!
Buncha people: Word.
Ether: ...huh?
JDodge: I

said

, Coron, Elvis and Flameaxe are town.
Ether: Okay. Tell me

why.

JDodge: No.
Ether: ...
Elvis: That scumbag is questioning the towniness of Coron, Elvis and Flameaxe!

Frankly, I don't expect to agree with the tells when I do drag them out, but we haven't even

reached

that point. This is idiotic.

[Ether]

This is why I have repeated, two times over, that you need to

read

, specifically Incog's posts.

I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to Elvis.

As for you, I'll vote who I want, when I want to, and you might not agree. That's all.

...having said that, let's

vote: Xtoxm

again. And if he's scum, Incognito's answers to me feel avoidant--let's lynch him next.

[Ether]

I did glance through the games, but I was hoping for an analysis that focused on his play in this game; you gave me the link and dropped the subject. Three times, here are the interactions I've had to twist your arm into providing:

Why aren't you voting Xtoxm?

My reads of people are badly in flux. Flameaxe is doing exactly what I would expect him to do as scum but yet JDodge thinks he's cleared for different reasons than I've mentioned.

JDodge, what are the reasons you have for Flameaxe being town if it's not the reasons I've listed? I don't care much for your secretiveness.

Speaking of Xtoxm though, Xtoxm, is there any reason you didn't do some kind of a summary upon entering the game as a replacement?

It took you two paragraphs to get to Xtoxm, and then you just asked him a ridiculously easy question. (I'd note you didn't follow up on his, but I

know

you're gonna make a big deal of this aside, which would be harmless on its own.)

That's not an answer. Asking Xtoxm about some lame failure to summarize isn't an answer, either. Why is your read of

Xtoxm

badly in flux?

Because his contribution so far hasn't been so bad that I could go forward and definitively label him as scummy. Since he's entered the game, he has been commenting on game-related stuff even if his contribution has been short and sweet. I

would

compare his contribution here to another game where I pinpointed him as scum on Day 1 but that game is currently ongoing.

As I've said, I think you're

wrong

about his contribution. Xtoxm hasn't been scumhunting, and that's what counts.

Hey, cool--in that post, you

offered

to run a comparison. But look:

This post summarizes my thoughts quite nicely: Post 118 in NG 581.

That's not a comparison. That's a reference. This post avoids doesn't give me a straight answer; worse, it avoids taking a stance on Xtoxm in

this

game.

Didn't

you

need a read on him, too?

[Ether]

I'm being ignored.

Armlx, what are your opinions of Xtoxm and Incognito?

JDodge, what are your opinions of Xtoxm and Incognito? Why haven't you been reading my posts? If you're referring me to Incognito to find out why the CEFs are all town, why haven't you been reading

his

posts?

[Ether]

Scot, what are your opinions of Xtoxm and Incognito?

[Ether]

Xtoxm is scum.

Incognito is scum.

This is not a drill.

[Ether]

It's a combination of your FAILURE TO DO ANYTHING EVER and the fact that Incogscum, who should certainly know all about the differences between your scum/town play, tolerates this and tries to avoid you.

[Ether]

Elvis, what do you think of the interactions between Xtoxm and Incognito?

[Ether]

You're saying incog is protecting or at least failing to adequately suspect xtoxm?

Yeah. The specific posts I analyzed in 413 are all pretty telling, I think.

[Ether]

Will {JDodge, Sarcastro, DGB} please stop {messing with DGB, fucking around in general, listening to JDodge}? Cheers.

Q21 is eh. His wagon has always felt like a distraction to me, but his own actions are less than compelling. What do you think of the Xtoxmwagon, Q21?

Sarcastro, how does "the two posts directly above yours both contain votes for Xtoxm, who you are unwilling to mention directly" equate to "listening to [ourselves] talk"? Seriously.

Just for reference, have you

ever

been accurate in stubborn mode this early? What about accurate and successful? Why do you bother?

Xtoxm makes minimal sense as Incog's scumbuddy based on those posts when you look at WEM.

First, he was still more active there. Second, even if he wasn't, that game wasn't in

Incognito's

meta, so his lenience still doesn't make any sense if they aren't scum together.

[Ether]

I'm going to assume you meant Incognito there--but I haven't the slightest idea where you pulled "lenient and overly trusting" from.

Because his contribution so far hasn't been so bad that I could go forward and definitively label him as scummy. Since he's entered the game, he has been commenting on game-related stuff even if his contribution has been short and sweet.

His argument seems to be "his contribution is adequate," not "his contribution is in-character." The meta he posted in 581 referred to four games, and 581 itself was a fifth; I definitely would not expect that he looked into Wintereenmas closely later but has failed so far to point it out here, no.

[Ether]

Find it yourself.

[Ether]

Still ambivalent on q21. Would not really oppose his lynch. Would not personally be interested in hopping on; Xtoxm and Incognito are still so much more obvious. Hmm hmm.

Lynching q21 with a xtoxm hammer is the solution.

I agree with either xtoxm or icog hammering at this point.

Oh, and xtoxm should hammer

I am creeped out by the number of people expressing this sentiment

now

after basically avoiding the Xtoxmwagon when it had a chance.

[Ether]

ARISTIC AND LIBERATING.

Armlx, who aside from q21 do you find scummy? I seriously cannot find any other hints of current suspicions in your posts; you're agreeing to compromise over two people whose wagons you don't support, one of whom you have actually

claimed to have a town read on

. Exactly

what

is going through your head right now?

With no regards to my reads, I'm annoyed by the DGB flaming. (Flameaxe is still fair game.)

[Ether]

Why do you find me scummy?

Considering your behavior toward his cleareds, why the hell would you find

JDodge

scummy?

Why didn't you express your support for the Xtoxmwagon while it was happening? "Wasn't a fan" indeed.

[Ether]

Uh-huh.

What are the town tells on each of these nine other people? What led you to decide the town read on JDodge indicated in 317 wasn't worth it after all?

[Ether]

I'm in a hurry, but suffice to say I think you're full of shit.

No, you didn't explain Incognito.

What was your read of JDodge based off of before you dropped him from your townlist? Why did you secondguess him whilst taking other people for granted? Many of these reasons look contrived.

right after xtoxm who is on there basically because I don't have a read on him.

So...I'm second highest on your list, right below q21. And you're trying to reassure me that I'm purely process of elimination.

Tell me what I've done that's scummy. Thank you.

[Ether]

Where did he say he didn't disagree with that assessment in 317?

Your post came exactly 212 posts since 317. Why do you assume people will hold the same opinion for so long?

My question was

what

had changed his mind. You kicked off the strategy that he's apparently relying on, which I'd intuitively expect him to find town--this is what sparked the line of questioning, but his 527 opened up further questions from there.

Because he dropped Dodgetown, I've held his other tells to a high standard which they

really don't reach

.

I'd settle for an Armlynch, but Xtoxm and Incognito are still scummier. They will always be scummier.

[Ether]

I'm in a hurry, but suffice to say I think you're full of shit.

No, you didn't explain Incognito.

What was your read of JDodge based off of before you dropped him from your townlist? Why did you secondguess him whilst taking other people for granted? Many of these reasons look contrived.

right after xtoxm who is on there basically because I don't have a read on him.

So...I'm second highest on your list, right below q21. And you're trying to reassure me that I'm purely process of elimination.

Tell me what I've done that's scummy. Thank you.

...

Bump, not just for Armlx's sake.

[Ether]

Also, Patrick has just announced that all of you are my property now.

I demand that Elmo fan me with this palm leaf. JDodge, get me a drink. Sarcastro, read the thread.

[Ether]

Sarcastro, read the thread.

Or I will order Flameaxe to whip you.

[Ether]

Flameaxe, please whip this Pope. He's fucking annoying.

Without, JDodge, but thanks for caring. This game has given me surprisingly few self-destructive urges. For that matter, the scum should strongly consider not nightkilling me even though I've caught three of them. I would be sad to be nightkilled here.

But I digress. Wanna lynch Armlx instead?

Ether, what do you think of the q21 wagon? Are you still reading q21 as town?

firmly apathetic.

What he said. You?

[Ether]

Damn, that post came out more obnoxious than I'd have liked.

But yeah, we should all contemplate the scumminess of Armlx.

[Ether]

I dislike the q21 wagon, and I don't think he's scum here. I think his wagon has turned into a wagon of convenience at this point. I especially don't like the fact that I'm being urged to hammer him by certain people. This game has been really hard to get into because the two main wagons that have existed in this game (mine and q21's) seemed to originate out of nowhere and no matter what he or I've said, they've still existed. I think people are just trying to get a lynch in without actually thinking about what's going on. If I do hammer and if he is town, I'm kinda hoping he's a supersaint just so I could get the hell out of this game already.

What about Armlx?

[Ether]

(I would like to point out that I've condemned you on a different tell than the one that you were originally run up for, but I think you're guilty of that first one, too. Your wagon does not still exist. Stop angsting. Try to make people lynch someone who isn't q21, if that's your position. Why did you ask me specifically?

(Also, postcount++.)

[Ether]

unvote; vote: armlx

Yay.

I asked you specifically because you were one of the few people who came outright and said that q21 was town very early on. I figured that you might have had something to say about the people who occupied the q21 L-1 wagon.

Nah. If I'd had big something to say, I'd have made myself clear.

People just seem to jump on the wagon of a person without mentioning much about anyone else and then disappear from the thread only to check in at some point to question why a person hasn't been lynched yet. I don't know if this is typical of large games but meh, it's kinda dumb if you ask me.

Possibly. The real problem is that the large games I've joined were

so long ago

that I can't remember what their Day 1s were like.

Wait, this is Day 2.

My mind is blurring up.

(To keep my positions clear, you're still scum. Xtoxm is probably the encryptor.)

[Ether]

It occurs to me that Farside is scummy.

[Ether]

Lurking, being among the set of people voting q21 and trying to appease the rest of us by offering

proper

suspects up as hammers.

[Ether]

I'm shaking, Armlx.

I like Coron's idea; I'm getting fed up with the offers of compromises that are clearly unequal, and I'm all for limiting the range of potential hammerers so we can keep the bandwagons naturalish.

Armlx should hammer. Or just be lynched.

[Ether]

Unless we brush against the deadline, I'm not touching q21.

[Ether]

Limited access.

Xtoxm is still scum, and still likely the encryptor.

vote: Xtoxm

Incognito is still scum. Coron's 643 and 644 suck, though. No. Blasphemy. Incognito is scummier.

Armlx is still scum.

So, there are 4 possible reasons I can think of for Armlx to act as he did yesterday:
1) he's scum and knows that there is no supersaint
2) he's scum and is gambiting
3) he's town and actually believed he was scum
4) he was anything and was just tired of the day dragging on

I'm thinking probably 4 mixed with 3 or maybe 1 is most probable.

There would have been a 1/11 chance to hit a supersaint at worst--q21 even claimed vanilla, for what that's worth; we just chose to ignore that. Do you seriously think he'd refuse?

[Ether]

I think Armlx is scum for refusing to look for scumtells or commit to reads for anyone except q21. His town reads are contrived bullshit.

Anyway, yeah, Incognito is scum.

[Ether]

He did? I didn't choose to ignore it, I'm just completely oblivious aparently.

Sorry, I just skimmed his posts and I can't find anything. Disregard that.

[Ether]

What does NG 592 have to do with this?

It's a further view into your meta on Xtoxm. I compared his total posts in each game on--May 9th sounds about right. I noted that he'd replaced into that game 8 days later than this one (seven if you ignore the night phase here) and made like three times as many posts. And many of those were content.

I know that poking at lurkers is an area you normally shine in, and you've caught him before, so in this light, your lowered standard seems particularly unnatural. (I've already made as much of this case as I could without referring to the then-ongoing game.)

Sarcastro, can we deal with him later? Xtoxm is much more likely to hold a power role.

I don't get it either Ether. Stop trying to force scumminess on people through bad arguments and die like a good mafiate.

You sound shaky, poor thing.

[Ether]

'Cause he was so hard to wagon.

[Ether]

By "power role," I meant "mafia power role." Please pay attention, Armlx.

[Ether]

I told Sarcastro to help me lynch Xtoxm for being a power role.

This isn't too hard.

[Ether]

No.

You're

not arguing a thing.

You're letting me identify the scum whilst you blather on how I must be scum by process of elimination because I haven't done anything town.

Just so we're clear, we're not gonna hammer Xtoxm until everyone checks in. I see no evidence that {DGB, Farside, Gorrad} have actually read the thread, Elmo mentioned he'd reread, and Sarcastro is wasting

so

much potential. (I'd mention Flameaxe, but he's not

worth

mentioning.)

After that, you should hammer, but I don't care all that much who does.

[Ether]

Heh.

That isn't quite what I was arguing--I designed an actual case against him and threw on his difficult wagon as a power role tell. I like how you avoided his wagon at the time and are trying to get credit for this argument now.

[Ether]

For all I say about {Xtoxmscum, Incogscum, Armlxscum in that order}, Farside makes me very uneasy.

Unvote

--we're not ending the day just yet.

[Ether]

You know I have 2 people saying I'm scummie, but no reason. This doesn't help.

gut

[Ether]

Okay.

She's lurking, she jumps in on my conclusions at the end but never really scumhunts, and even if she's right, bussing doesn't require much effort in a game where the investigative roles are presumably all dead.

[Ether]

What about me?

Why am I scummy, Armlx?

[Ether]

Heeeeeeeeeey...

[Ether]

There's a fun WIFOM game to be played with my encryptorhate--am I not a scientist?

(There are two paths you can take here. Yup, it's a trap. A different kind than the one I define later in this post. But you still have to answer.)

Incognito's wagon on Day 1 wasn't a prearranged bus--there you go. (Relatedly, I don't believe for a second that Incognito's replacement request wasn't serious.)

I anticipated an scumtell that Incognito might or might not have committed later, which had the potential to out scumbuddies--I fail to see how this is a suboptimal scumhunting method, let alone scummy. However, this is not why I unvoted; this is why I unvoted

late

.

Incognito is scum. I've stated why. I can restate why.

This post went on waaaaaaay too long.

I'm pretty much like that in all my games, but I understand.

I haven't seen you since S&S2--give examples?

Sarc and Armlx are totally pro-town.

Why Armlx?

[Ether]

I agree with Elvis. Note that he put all those fancy colors onto his own wagon, which certainly isn't a proof. Worse, he doesn't take playstyles into account--using

bandwagoning

as a point against someone like Sarc or Flameaxe is absolutely ridiculous even when you're working on more than 2 (or 3) wagons; he should certainly know better.

Yawn.

I don't really trust Farside's excuse, though I haven't thoroughly checked it.

Tempted to vote Xtoxm, but I want to wait for Gorrad. DGB, who's scum? Elvis, what do you think of Armlx? Come to think of it, what do you currently think of

me?

[Ether]

Tempted to vote Xtoxm, but I want to wait for Gorrad. DGB, who's scum? Elvis, what do you think of Armlx? Come to think of it, what do you currently think of

me?

Though I won't pretend there wasn't some lip service attitude to that post.

[Ether]

I don't think missing Dave specifically means much of anything; I can easily see someone paying more attention to the official wagons and its own than to other failed wagons.

It's more him trying to paint wagoning (and especially wagoning

him

) as a scumtell that's my issue.

[Ether]

Meh. Fine.

vote: Incognito

Gorrad, are you finished yet?

Patrick, change your avatar.

[Ether]

Not to get all WIFOM-y BUT the fact that Xtoxm ended up being just a Mafia Goon instead of that scum power role that you theorized about might just indicate that I'm not scum in this game.

That's exactly what I've been going back and forth on. I still have a lot of problems with you independently of that, though, and I could see your Day 1 wagon taking you by surprise.

With a few exceptions that don't apply here, I won't give a person credit for putting someone at -2.

I don't trust the goon approach to clearing people--PYP2 had Ckillor as the encryptor over Jordan-goon. I don't consider this specifically a strike against you.

[Ether]

Bullshit. I singlehandedly started the Xtoxmwagon on Day 1, and removed him from -1 because the day was moving so quickly. I never revoted, or made the slightest attempt to deflect the Xtoxmwagon.

Just so we're clear, we're not gonna hammer Xtoxm until everyone checks in. I see no evidence that {DGB, Farside, Gorrad} have actually read the thread, Elmo mentioned he'd reread, and Sarcastro is wasting so much potential. (I'd mention Flameaxe, but he's not

worth

mentioning.)

I'm not following Sarcastro; I've pushed the Incogwagon harder and with far more reasoning than he ever has.

[Ether]

I singlehandedly started the Xtoxmwagon on Day 1,

*Day 2.

Tempted to vote him and carried a case, but never voted for him again. Why did you wait. Did you gather any information from your questions?

Because Day 3 felt empty; not really, no one new ever did jump in and I was too lazy to do much prying on my own.

How are you arguing that I aided Xtoxm?

[Ether]

So?

I already took it for granted that Xtoxm would die; I think this is obvious from my posts. I was moving beyond him.

[Ether]

Still voting Incognito.

Do not like Sarcwagon.

Somewhat intrigued by Elmohate, even if I feel Gorrad has oversnarked his PBP. Need to decide if Incogscum is physically capable of bussing, and what that says about Armlx, who'd be scummier independently.

[Ether]

Armlx. Up-to-date thoughts on all players in this game, with reasons. Now.

This is so important that I'm taking Patrick's top of the page.

[Ether]

Fair enough.

[Ether]

Sarc wagon > DGB wagon because of "If a bandwagon on him

{Xtoxm}

gets going, I'll switch over" when he's known for being wagon-happy and has indeed mysteriously been on a bunch of town wagons.

Eh. His play here seems identical to his play in Big Love.

I'd be willing to push a DGBwagon at some point, which will be related to the quality of Armlx's post.

Inspired by boredom and work avoidance, and don't you dare ask me to analyze it:

armlx - 139
Ether - 76 now, mostly in tripleposts

THE MODLINE - 61

Incognito - 57
Coron - 57 (huh.)

average - 52.4

scotmany12 - 52
Sarcastro - 43 - median
Gorrad/Dave - 35
Elmo - 34
Flameaxe - 32
farside22/starkmoon - 26
DrippingGoofball/Marmalade - 25

In conclusion, everyone except Armlx fails personally.

[Ether]

Your average counts dead players.

Why the (huh) next to my name? Thought I had been more inactive than that?

Yes. (Also, I find it hilarious that you're tied with (now beating) Incognito postcount-wise.)

We've passed the 90-minute mark, by the way.

[Ether]

That

took two hours.

[Ether]

That

took 24 minutes.

[Ether]

unvote; vote: armlx

Look at me, guys and DGB and Farside! I'm helping Incognito's sorry scummy self slide through another day!

[Ether]

Have I

ever

posted an associative tell between Armlx and Incognito?

[Ether]

Not in the slightest.

[Ether]

EBWODP: I'm not trying to be offensive Coron, but I definitely view Ether as a higher tier of player than you.

Hmm. What lead you to believe this?

[Ether]

Armlx has now survived to his eighteenth birthday.

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

[Ether]

Who are you gonna vote?

[Ether]

People aren't taking me seriously. ._.

[Ether]

EBWODP: I'm not trying to be offensive Coron, but I definitely view Ether as a higher tier of player than you.

Hmm. What lead you to believe this?

You can tell me.

[Ether]

Who's fault is that?

What are you insinuating?

[Ether]

Armlx hates us. ._. (Buddy list censored.)

DGB, Incognito's still scum. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. (Irony recognized. I'll hop back onto the Incogwagon if it's necessary, but Armlx is more obvscum.)

My posts 926 and 928 both contained serious questions which are being ignored. (Parentheses.)

[Ether]

Then it was Coron's behavior and not mine at all?

Do you think he's been better in the last page?

What is your meta on Flameaxe? What makes him townier than DGB or Sarcastro?

Did you see my defense on Day 3?

Why do you clear some people for voting Xtoxm (and earlier, Scot for voting q21--

hah

) and ignored the fact that

I got him lynched?

(And don't you dare play the "you unvoted" card.)

[Ether]

My point is its pretty evident by the fact you actually are contributing stuff.

He's participated someone instead of just "Hi". So yes.

I'd rather not go into specifics ATM, but I'm pretty sure he's town in this game (specific tell).

No, and I do not on reread. Link plz.

You make it seem like multiple people, not just 1.... I just think you have been scummy enough over the course of the game to over ride that one redeeming action.

I certainly have. ^_^ What sorts of stuff? Why was it so corrupt? (What were Incognito's town tells?)

Uh. No he hasn't.

I'll accept that for now.

Post 726. This of course only covers the attacks you

made

, which were just awful. That couldn't possibly be it.

See, even you agree. "Course of the game." The case you made was Day 1 and Day 0, and some "not giving off town tells" bullshit. Keep talking.

[Ether]

Sure, Coron responded to posts with "Ugh, I need to reread."

I'm lazy and I'm not running on town tells or process of elimination--therefore I don't need a List. Unless a lot of people start asking me, I'm not going to bother constructing one.

Your attack is pure obvious bullshit, much of which I countered in 726. When I switched back to favoring an Incoglynch, I made a large post explaining why--you paint it as sudden and baseless--and Incognito himself doesn't seem to have a problem with my position.

I'm not gonna give more thorough responses unless, again, other people choose to "sponsor" your attacks. (I would definitely like for people to comment on this spat, and not just ignore it. Attention is fun. Attention on me, attention on scum, it's all good.)

[Ether]

Hey.

Anyone else liking his attack?

Anyone else not liking his attack?

I know you're out there.

[Ether]

There actually is a protown reason, though I wouldn't use it as an excuse. Not my kind of philosophy.

But there is a null one.

[Ether]

Yes, but like I said, I don't follow that school of thought, so you don't need to ridicule it with quotations for my sake.

Yup.

[Ether]

You're accusing me of not participating?

Seriously?

You've

run on contrived town tells and process of elimination as an excuse all game. Your cases are full of shit and double-standards, and I've had to get all of that out into the open--due to the town tells, this actually requires your thoughts on every individual player.

I've

gone directly for scum; a list from me wouldn't clarify a thing. It's not a practical extension of my playstyle this game.

Get some support and I'll probably do something, whatever. But I fail to see why I

should

be bothered.

[Ether]

Silly. You're not the town and I'm not under any real pressure--I'm not going to be forced by

you

to do anything.

(Incidentally, I'm in the "it's usually suboptimal to claim as vanilla" camp and don't believe stalling in most circumstances to be a tell. This is again philosophy and is irrelevant to my role in this game.)

Coron, yes, you do. Also answer 928 and 941.

[Ether]

Scot, what's your stance on Incognito?

Farside, what's your stance on Armlx?

(Also, I don't quite understand your conclusion about 413, although it's probably correct. Whatever it is.)

[Ether]

I'm still not sure I'm following you. Not finding it offputting that Xtoxm didn't start with a summary, correct?

Playing with Armix this seems like his normal aggressive behavior. Typically when I've seen him behave this way and attack someone he is wrong. I don't know if he is scum or town because the games he does this in thus far are still ongoing. I just know so far he has been wrong.

You

were voting me earlier today; why is your stance so reconciliatory now?

Have you played with DGB before? What's the difference between her play this game and her play in other games? (Off the top of my head, she hasn't been town in a game with me for about a year and a half, but she does have a reputation.)

Aside from the voteswitch, how was your reread?

Wait? This was a serious question? Really? You wanted that answered? I was mostly just joking around with you, and I figured you were doing the same.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I wasn't.

[Ether]

I found DBG comment and lack of participation much scummier. I haven't completely written anyone off at this point. I think the only who had made a valid point was Gorgon

Why should DGB being scum give me any stock?

(What do you mean by that last sentence?)

I skimmed more then read. I only noted DGB's play.

You did FoS her at the time--why did you instead originally vote me originally today, and why did you later decide she was more interesting after all? Her Incogvote was post 777, page 32. Just where did you start your reread that you weren't taking notes before you attacked DGB, and didn't bother taking notes after?

I know, I know, it's a waste of time to try to lynch me and you know that now, but I'm sure you could find a better excuse to escape my futile wagon.

I only noted DGB's play. I'm less certain about icogn now because of how xtoxm was and how DGB was trying to get people to vote that way too.

Are you

seriously

saying that the Xtoxm/Incognito interactions imply Incogtown? What would your stance on Incognito be if DGB died as town?

Incognito is lurking. (Flameaxe and Sarc, too, but who cares?)

I'll go with whichever of {armlx, Incognito, Farside} we can get the biggest wagon on. We should kill them all.

[Ether]

Oh, hi, Sarc! Didn't see you there.

We should probably converge on someone.

[Ether]

What are your thoughts on setting up lynches ahead of time?

In this case, a game-winning course of action. Game-winning for the town, before you say anything predictable.

In most cases, a statement made to assert the vital upper slots of a player's List, and harmless on its own--after all, it can't get anywhere unless its cases are valid. Do you disagree?

Scot, what do you think of Farside?

Sarc, what do you think of Farside and Armlx?

[Ether]

Vote him, then.

By the way, what do you think about Farside and Armlx? What makes this game too dull for you to spam and wagon and shit without requiring prods?

[Ether]

Ether, why exactly don't you find Sarcastro scummy?

First because you're scummier so at least his tunnel vision is in good taste; second because Sarcastro is in the "has forgotten his true potential" class anyway.

They should hold an invitational for people like him and Elmo.

So you been reading? You

know

what question I'm about to ask, don't you?

I imagine Armlx is gonna want me to hammer?

[Ether]

And no, I have no clue what question you're about to ask so ask away.

(sigh) What is your opinion of Farside? And, while we're at it, how did you fail to anticipate this question? What have you been noticed in the last few pages instead?

I don't group Sarc and Elmo in together, beyond being wistful.

Elmo got the case on Sarc a lot better than Incognito did (he was on

two

bad wagons and yours, and tenacious leadership is what he

didn't

do). Meh. What Sarc's doing still reminds me of what he did in Big Love, and a recent AIM conversation I had with him suggests that he's depressed. I do feel frustrated that I'm letting him off this easily, but only a little.

Uh. Farside, I didn't attack Armlx for requesting the List, and I'm not sure where you got the idea that I did. I'm attacking him because his list is so mechanical and contrived and stuffed with double-standards that it can't possibly be real.

On Day 2, he even used his process of elimination to get out of looking for scumtells on people. (Filter his stances on Xtoxm for the best example of this--he insists that he doesn't like the Xtoxmwagon, that Xtoxm is on the bottom of his short "uncleared" list (at the same time he insisting that he doesn't actually have scumtells on anyone except q21), but he uses the town list position to avoid taking a definitive stance and later hops onto the wagon after Xtoxm already has a large wagon, and instantly switches to an Xtoxmscum perspective in his posts.)

I love how he cleared Scot for his realistic attack on q21 which he thought couldn't possibly be distancing, and hasn't cleared me for my behavior toward Xtoxm because he now says I did so many other scummy things. On Day 2, remember, he tried to tell me I hadn't done anything scummy at all; I just hadn't done anything pro-town.

He's full of shit.

Now answer my questions from 966, and explain where you got the idea that I'm voting him for requesting an analysis from me. Thank you.

[Ether]

I said I didn't

attack

him for it. I never said he didn't ask me to make one.

Don't patronize me, Farside. If you think Armlx is town, it's your responsibility to get this wagon off him. So stop posturing and spill it.

Now, for the

third

time, answer my questions from 966 and tell me why you're strawmanning the attack on Armlx.

I love how he cleared Scot for his realistic attack on q21 which he thought couldn't possibly be distancing, and hasn't cleared me for my behavior toward Xtoxm because he now says I did so many other scummy things.

On Day 2, remember, he tried to tell me I hadn't done anything scummy at all; I just hadn't done anything pro-town.

Scot did 0 really scummy things I see. You did X, where X is a larger number then 0. I see no double standard.

Incognito's still out-of-water Xtoxm-avoiding lurkerscum, and I'd still vote him. (Actually, a Farsidelynch is my preference now. Are we all willing to wagonhop yet again? If not, eh, whatever.) I'm baffled by Sarc's sudden willingness to back off, though I don't really see it as sinister.

Gorrad, what about Farside? In particular, Scot seems obvtown. (The clincher is that I don't see Scot/Armlx, but even independently Scot seems fine.)

[Ether]

Farside, it's idiotic that you're trying to paint your silence as a matter of looks in the first place--if Armlx is town, your uncooperativeness is condemning him to a mislynch, and you should try to, y'know, make that not happen. Looks shouldn't enter into it. If you disagree...well. What you've already said about Armlx "looks" anti-town, and you'll "look" better if you seem to have logical reasons.

But I don't think you have any.

You are avoiding my case on Armlx and my questionsto

you,

and I'm not exactly being subtle about them. Pay attention, please.

Off the top of my head, I liked Scot's early vote on Armlx today. And the way Armlx cleared Scot on Day 2 felt like he was trying to encourage him to keep voting q21.

[Ether]

Farside, you ignore what I've actually said about Armlx, to ask instead why I found him scummy for one of the few things I

didn't

attack him for. You say my case is bad but I've seen no evidence that you've even read it.

Answer my questions and tell me why you're stalling.

Protown people don't change opinions? I know when I'm town I change opinions quite frequently sometimes. Also, you act like there are not town tells. It is a mafia tell to not have town tells, or at least you could look at it that way. I'm totally cool with him eliminating suspects based on town tells, I don't know why you're not.

I think the specific tells he used are contrived and shifted to suit his day-to-day needs rather than being real changes of heart. I do not think they are genuine towntells.

I first demanded a case on me from Armlx on Day 2, on post 526. He gave an avoidant response in 527: "Its less I find you and Dodge scummy then I find you lacking in being especially pro-town looking." I asked again in 538. After 40 hours of Armlx making seven posts ignoring me, I bumped the post in 559. His response in 562 was again, "The rest of the list isn't even in order." He didn't bother posting that half-assed case of his until late Day 3; up until then, he tried to reassure me that it was pure process of elimination.

[Ether]

How is that response avoidant?

Up until D3 I didn't bother to put the pieces together on why you were scum as I was busy getting the person I though was most likely scum lynched.

That's avoidance. Disclaimers like "No, no, you're not scummy; just, everyone else is townie" are avoidant. A blatantly half-assed justification--you used it to stall while you could push the q21lynch, and you used the q21lynch to stall answering me.

Also I suggest you reread back to see why I think armix is town. If you haven't figured it out I'm not pointing it out.

That implies the case was bad, as does the fact that

you've never deigned to acknowledge it.

I found DBG comment and lack of participation much scummier. I haven't completely written anyone off at this point. I think the only who had made a valid point was Gorgon

Why should DGB being scum give me any stock

when you unvoted and suddenly started defending me

?

(What do you mean by that last sentence?)

I skimmed more then read. I only noted DGB's play.

You did FoS her at the time

of her switch to Incognito

--why did you instead originally vote me originally today, and why did you later decide she was more interesting after all? Her Incogvote was post 777, page 32. Just where did you start your reread that you weren't taking notes before you attacked DGB, and didn't bother taking notes after?

I know, I know, it's a waste of time to try to lynch me and you know that now, but I'm sure you could find a better excuse to escape my futile wagon.

I only noted DGB's play. I'm less certain about icogn now because of how xtoxm was and how DGB was trying to get people to vote that way too.

Are you seriously saying that the Xtoxm/Incognito interactions imply Incogtown? What would your stance on Incognito be if DGB died as town?

What's not to understand?

Why aren't you acknowledging my case against Armlx?

Why is he town?

Why haven't you posted a rational defense of him yet?

Your attitude seems to be, "I think today's probable lynch candidate is town, but you find this belief scummy so I'm going to just get you angrier and not post anything rational, instead of making an effort to save him from being lynched, because making such an effort would look anti-town." Any complaints?

[Ether]

Okay, Farside's town.

I don't think Armlx is a supersaint, but while I'm thinking about it, the current policy is silly--if an endangered supersaint claims, it needn't be lynched until 3-player endgame; we're at 11, so it's not like it'd help parity before then. I'm sort of surprised no one called me on this, but unless there's something I've forgotten, Armlx should probably confirm or deny.

Hm... if he'd done a deep examination of all of these people THERE WOULD BE AN ORDER, but he didn't. Later he did, wow, shocking.

It's not that you

hadn't done anything scummy

it was that he hadn't examined in depth for scumminess yet, at least that's how I read it.

I did read it as me not doing anything scummy. I think if I'd done anything scummy, or even pinged his gut, he'd have said this outright instead of just telling me that I lacked towniness.

The lack of ordering or scumtell-acknowledgement also indicates that he had no gut with regards to the players he was supposedly watching the closest (except q21). I don't buy it; it's not like he didn't have an eye out for tells.

For what it's worth, I do not endorse Scot's specific points in 1018.

Why are you focused on me alone? Why are you pushing the Armix case so hard?

Elaborate on "focused." I'm pushing Armlx because I think he's scum, and I still think he's scum.

what the hell? He doesn't have to justify that you might be scum, unless other evidence is given it's assumed. Seriously, quit being dumb.

I am not actually sure what you just said.

[Ether]

Also, tomorrow's a busy day and I'll be at Starkadium this weekend. Limited access.

[Ether]

Or any other time, really.

@Ether:

I don't think armlx and farside22 are scum with one another; I think they're more likely to be mutually exclusive scum. Of the two, I feel more confident about armlx being the scum rather than farside22.

Yes, I changed my mind when Farside made the supersaint statement. Same for you? In fact, I don't think she's scum without him, either.

I'd currently rather kill Incognito than Armlx, but, eh, whatever, both still work.

[Ether]

Fuck.