NY Mafia 155 - New Age Mafia II - Game Over!

[Tierce]

VOTE: JDodge

Hello, friend.


(In the middle of an Eberron session. Don't expect me around tonight.)

[Tierce]

*yawn* slow start.

Not digging the wagon on someone who hasn't even posted yet.

Why is an RVS wagon on someone who hasn't posted worse than the larger RVS wagon on me?

[Tierce]

So I claim now right?

VOTE: Tierce

GASP!
Obv survivalistic scum! diesuckdie

FoS: Shea

Would also lynch Bella to get all the menfolk for me and me alone.

PEdit: Damn you OGML the top of page was all mine.

[Tierce]

UNVOTE: JDodge
VOTE: umoms

HAMMAH HAMMAH

[Tierce]

That's the problem, we need a 10th!

[Tierce]

66 is fucking awful

You need to read more Stoofer games, JD~

[Tierce]

I mean his modded games.

PS: You are boring.

[Tierce]

It was anything but 'pack mentality'.

1) It's ridiculously fun.
2) It's useful.

A quicklynch threat on D1 catches players off-guard. It generates reactions that can be studied later with a couple of flips And I would

definitely

have hammered that wagon if he had been at L-1 by the time of my vote; among other things, analyzing who came after me on D2 would be gold.

(Channeling Glork-scum? You betcha.)

[Tierce]

EBWOP:
Too many avatars with white backgrounds. Why did I think JD was the one making that post? O_o
Anyway, the points stand, just change the form of address from the third person to the second.

[Tierce]

Not only is there no reason to think Umoms is scum, but the person who is in my book most likely to be scum is hanging on the back end of that wagon.

Tierce, my comment on bellas posts were tongue and cheek, yes, but they were also an attempt to try to steer the conversation in a more productive direction. Izzy's answers to those questions mattered to me. The fact that you blew them off doesn't necessarily read as weird to me on its own, but it does sort of give the impression that you're attempting to stay in randomness. Like, a sequence of

Person A: statement, joke, etc.
Person B: Somewhat serious question with a slight hint of joke.
Person C: HAHAH QUESTION DOESN'T MATTER LETS JUST KEEP VOTING RANDOM PEOPLE.

is suspicious to me. I also don't like how aggressively you jumped on the back end of the umoms wagon with no justification for it.

Unvote, Vote: Tierce

Of course I jumped on aggressively--that was the

whole point

. Push a quicklynch/quicklynch threat on D1, see where the pieces fall and mine the reactions garnered from it on later days. I've already explained this on #98. If I had hmm'd and haw'd about it we wouldn't be having these kind of developments; I wanted to take a decisive stance, to push the dominos one way or the other. People started scattering like frightened chickens, and with a few flips, we're going to have a better understanding of the interests behind this wagon and the reactions to it.

How did I 'blow your questions off'? My impression of Izzy's vote and comments about you was that they were RVS+jokes, and that you were overreacting in a weird manner and trying to fish too deeply for motivation. It felt like cheap posturing. This is not 'blowing questions off', this is "I find your Post 36 scummy", period.

Yes, my own vote at the time was still RVS, I made another RVS joke in the same post (about Bella) and could have shifted to you; I chose not to because, after Glork's #47, I had a plan of action re: the next quickwagon that developed--push it to L-2, L-1 or hammer it.

[Tierce]

"Push the dominoes":
1) "one way": have people force the wagon through;
2) "the other": see the wagon fall apart.

[Tierce]

._.
It's a difficult pick between being called scummy and trying too hard.

UNVOTE: umoms
VOTE: Rhinox

[Tierce]

I don't see any evidence of Rhinox looking for motivations--he's jumping on actions and declaring them scummy without showing how, if ever, said actions further the scum cause. He's more interested in criticism than in finding scum.

[Tierce]

I missed this gem.

(Channeling Glork-scum? You betcha.)

How can you think that there is any pro-town benefit to knowingly channeling a player's scum meta?

Considering 1) Glork-scum is far more protown than most players and 2) it's

fun

, why not tackle D1 in such a manner?

Let's double this one back on you: do you think channeling another player's scum meta is scummy? If so, why?

[Tierce]

...you do realize my playstyle is mostly a half-conscious cobble of the games I read, right? I lift some behaviors more or less in full.

The comment was in the sense that this was your D1 attitude in Space Monkey Mafia, and that despite your alignment there, a similar play could be useful here for town. Admittedly, I didn't think it through a lot in terms of post-event analysis.

[Tierce]

I want your opinions and observations on this game, right now. Drop the act, tell us what you really think.

What makes you think that Space Monkey, a game build entirely around being a bit of a mindfuck for the players, is a good place to lift behaviours from for a large normal game?

I'm giving those observations as I have them and see fit to share them.

It was one behavior, and it was hardly specific for that game--it's disingenuous of you to try to associate those two things, since they are independent. Whatever act you say I'm doing has been dropped already when I explained what and why I was behaving like that.

Hai Staeg. Whenever you feel like playing with us, go right ahead.

iaun--I think you replaced out from that game, but do you remember what was your slot's alignment in kiwieagle's Cookie Mafia? It was eaten by tigers, but I remember some things from there and I'm matching pieces together.

I'm good with massclaim.

---

Also, this redff wagon is bad and people should feel bad.

redFF: 1 (Flameaxe)

wow what a wagon.

unvote, vote redff

dumb? or scummy?

redff is dumb for sure. But mostly I'm just interested in exploring why JD seemed to overreact to one vote on red.

Why add a vote yourself instead of voting JDodge, then, if you're 'exploring' JDodge's behavior?

I don't see any evidence of Rhinox looking for motivations--he's jumping on actions and declaring them scummy without showing how, if ever, said actions further the scum cause. He's more interested in criticism than in finding scum.

So would you say your post shows evidence of looking for my motivation, or shows how, if ever, my actions further the scum cause? >.>

I don't know what you mean about more interested in criticism than finding scum. I think umoms is scummy and I've explained why. What part do you have a problem with? Can you show me examples of what you're saying I'm doing here?

I've been trying to get actually responses/discussions about things because thats how I play. When people react with "what the fuck is this shit" or "you're just making things up as you go" - that stuff is just useless rhetoric meant to look like you're doing something when you're not doing jack shit. "what the fuck is this shit" says nothing about what you think the problem is or why. "you're just making things up as you go" isn't even trying. Unfortunately this is the type of play thats the acceptable and "cool" way to play in the current meta. Its just not how I play.

See below.

For serious though, I'm not liking umoms complaining about a slow start while not doing anything to fix it, while also complaining about something that actually *could* speed up the start of the game (aka the agar wagon)

unvote, vote umoms

Why is this more likely to come from scum than town?

Yeah... I was gonna say, if it was a reaction test, umoms failed.

What exactly am I supposed to be reacting to? I couldn't really give less of a shit about a page 3 lolynch wagon.

A good start might be to actually address the reasons people think you're scummy.

Why does his lack of reaction to a quickwagon make him scum?

nice omgus

It was not OMGUS. He analyzed the wagon of people voting him and went for the person he believed was opportunistic scum. Would you call OMGUS if umoms voted anyone else in that wagon?

What the fuck is this shit?

I don't know, what the fuck is it? You didn't actually say anything about it at all.

And neither do you.

What do you think about the point I brought up about umoms?

Your one point was that he acted lazy at the beginning of the game. Again, why do you think this is scummy?

What do you think about the point I brought up about umoms?

you brought up a point about umoms? i was under the impression that he called out your bullshit and you chalked it up to wifom

nah man he whined and omgus'd me without actually addressing anything. Idk where you're coming up with this wifom you think happened but I didn't chalk anything up to wifom ever.

More importantly, why are you answering for agar?

Or if you really feel the need to answer you can at least say why you think my point was bullshit. You asked me to clarify my comment which I did. Were you not interested in the answer?

Why are you having an issue with JDodge not clarifying stuff when you don't clarify stuff yourself?

Also, this redff wagon is bad and people should feel bad.

redFF: 1 (Flameaxe)

wow what a wagon.

unvote, vote redff

This is an example of the pointless snippiness and lack of explanation. You are railing against JDodge's description (why, even if it is inaccurate? Why is this wrong descriptor worthy of 'exploration'?) and voting redFF... why?

[Tierce]

VT.

Rhinox, go.

[Tierce]

Prod dodging while massclaim is happening.

[Tierce]

My scumlist hasn't really changed over the past few pages. Tierce hasn't posted anything since her fake-ass case to deflect attention/show off she's town...and has gotten away with it. Also she claimed VT so if she's telling the truth and gets lynched day one....oh well we just won't have any townies trying to channel scum play.

It's a massclaim. I'm purposefully pausing my play, in case that's what you are wondering.

[Tierce]

This is not going to work in time. Forget about popcorning.

You. Yes, you. If you look at the thread, claim.

Gaming night back later etc.

[Tierce]

That is against the spirit of the game.

I either want the mod to have proof that Quagmire read his role PM, or I'm replacing out. This is not a threat or a bitch fit, this is a flat-out refusal to play in a game where someone deliberately chooses to act in a way that invalidates D1 scumhunting.

This is an honor system; it's enough for me to have Quag state he read his role PM--if he actually hasn't, hell, that's something against him on an ethical level. But I will not play in these conditions, where a player says he's doing something that will affect the spirit of the game and is allowed to get away with it.

[Tierce]

No, it's not. It's a moral issue. We're all on the same ground, but you decided you had the right to absolutely fuck up any scumhunting you do or others do on your slot during, at least, D1. I will not play in these conditions. If you will not fix this, I'm replacing out--so just say the word.

[Tierce]

JD, that was a reply to Quagmire.

[Tierce]

@mod: Replace me, please.

JDodge, if you think I'd rather replace out than play, you really don't know me. I could have not signed up, I could have replaced out at any time. I'm choosing to cut myself off this game because I think this is a moral issue that cannot be overcome and would taint my enjoyment of the game.


Good luck.

[Tierce]

Alright then.

Staeg and associates: my reaction to Quagmire has everything to do with game integrity and nothing to do with my alignment. I can provide evidence of similar reactions both as town and as scum. In fact, I can provide proof of similar reactions to a situation I wasn't even involved in. Any speculation on whether I'd do this as alignment X or Y dies here, as this is not something I'd pretend about.

Suggesting I'd replace out to gain towncred on a slot I'd lose attachment to is several levels of absurd; you'll note I couldn't be bothered to follow up with JDodge's plea. JDodge, by the way, belongs in the townbin by sheer virtue of Giving A Damn About The Game.

I don't particularly care whether or not it'd be protown from Quagmire to act the way he did, AGar--if everyone did so, the game would lose meaning.
With that said, I'm not interested in any AGar lynch today. (Fact: I thought it was Rhinox who had posted the alignment-null commentary about my reaction, and was coming here to ask Glork whether they have daytalk, because that would totally be something I could see Glork, who knows me best out of anyone in the game, could discuss with Rhinox and might invalidate the way Rhinox-AGar acted here. Had my scummers mixed up.)

I'm very tired and this was rather draining; I don't like seeing my integrity brought into question. ('Butthurt scum'? No, that should read 'player with a moral code'.) I need more nap time and have other things to address in the dead of night before paying attention to this game.

[Tierce]

...and? Since it's an alignment-null issue, what I was doing before has nothing to do with my decision. I was in the middle of a roleplaying session, saw someone admit to what I think is major unsportsmanlike (pretty word) behavior, acted on it ASAP--because in my eyes, that is bigger than wincon. I would have done the same if I had drawn scum and Quagmire was listed as my buddy. I've quickhammered as town when someone tried to play a trust-tell (and threatened doing so

as scum

), this isn't that different.

It seems you're agreeing with AGar that what I did was independent to my alignment. He says he has other problems with my play, and you quote that post saying I wasn't doing anything before because...? I've explained why I wasn't, I chose not to interfere with the massclaim. If we're going to cut that short, I'm resuming play as normal--once I nap+other stuff.

[Tierce]

I can't see how someone can see redFF's latest posts and miss the opportunistic bullshit right there.

UNVOTE: Rhinox
VOTE: redFF

[Tierce]

redFF's tone reeks of "boy oh boy we caught a pseudo-scumslip party time". Look at how he addresses nhammen. Why is he apologizing for stringing him up? If he was THAT cheerful as town, he would be keeping it up, delighted that he had found a legitimate slip and would see someone flip scum very soon. He knows the slot is going to flip town.

And frankly, the number of situations in which this happened/didn't happen is not statistically significant, IMO.

As for you, I don't have a read yet. (Though thinking back that reaction to my vote shows a different mindset from redFF's, so town points for you I guess. I have to analyze this further.) And you're not going to get reads on 'everyone' on D1 of a large from me.

[Tierce]

As town, you can admit that something you do can be perceived as scummy. Yes, nhammen could have dismissed the accusation, but countering and discussing it does not make him scum.

[Tierce]

Waiting for the two claims--prod dodge.

[Tierce]

That is not the correct answer.

[Tierce]

JD, all Normal cops are sane, so it wouldn't surprise me if Psyche had that stated in his role PM.

Where is McStab?

[Tierce]

Not even an hello?

[Tierce]

Jesus, people.

It's Psyche. This is the guy who made the An Analysis of Accusations of Flailing thread and is coordinating the The Science of Mafia - Central Thread stuff. He commented on that idea because he is interested on analyzing it later. Lay off.

redFF and McStabmoms need to die.

[Tierce]

Prod dodging naptime etc. More when I wake up.

[Tierce]

First things first: I have no idea who scooby keeps referring to as 'Koffing'. Granted I've been mostly ignoring scooby, but inquiring minds etc.

Second, you have no idea how exhausted I am. If this post devolves into stream of consciousness, I'll attempt to fix it come morning. ('Morning', well. My sleep schedule is bonkers and I slept about 8 hours total in the last 48.) Also JD if you ever see me saying I'm bored in scumchat tell me to

go sleep

.

Anything past the top of page 18 is off the top of my head/grabbed from ISOs as I go along. At this stage, this is all I can do--it's 11 pm and I really can't brain, so time to catch up on sleep. Will continue tomorrow, but Staeg needs rope already so please have a wagon waiting for me in the morning.


Hoopla, why is singer's claim more important to you than the fact that Quagmire has refused to claim?


I had a kneejerk reaction to Quilford's comment here:

UNVOTE: Rhinox
VOTE: UT

That's stupid.

I suppose. My initial reaction to the claim was that it was town, but it's faded. I'd feel like a bit of an ass jumping back onto Rhinox though, so I'll wait.

I wanted to vote it

so badly

. But the crux of the matter is: scum would feel like what Quilford is saying, but they wouldn't express it in words. They'd just shut up and do whatever. Quilford is showing a level of transparency that is unlikely to come from scum.


Hey Stag--why is BBM town? Why Quil? Why was UT scummy? You're spewing reads onto the thread and I've yet to see some decent reasoning for them. (Side note--as I go through this, I end up scrolling down to see JD making pretty much the same questions. More townpoints for JD etc.) Also also also--what I just found in your ISO, all your references to me:

I pretty much always have scumreads on people with nhammen's playstyle but not here.
Tierce may or may not be scum.

unvote
Vote: tierce

everything else seems largely irrelevant.

uggggh now tierce is probably scum, too

AGar, if that's the way you feel about Quilford, how do you feel about Tierce?

Tierce's fit felt legitimate - I feel like she actually was pissed off that Quag didn't read his role PM without thinking it through, whereas Quilford was just upset because scum were distinctively at a disadvantage in that situation. I've got other problems with Tierce's game so far, but I feel like her fit was alignment independent.

Wellll the problem here is pretty much exactly what JD said, she didn't do ANYTHING before said fit.

No, tierce, that's not what I said - I'm pretty sure you know I would expect you to replace out in these circumstances. I'm saying, you were doing nothing and then some and suddenly popped out to replace out.

Jesus, you guys. Tierce is scum so hard. How do you not see it?

I'll be having that case you promised, thanks

He's admitting it's bad in a LARGE game. Which it is.

But not because of the claiming - it's because of the stifling of all discussion that happened due to the claim and how long it took. So, if you're here, there's no reason not to claim (well, at least no reason that anyone has brought up).

P-edit: tierce, no, bad tierce.

You're not scumhunting.

You can hardly remember what you said about me whenever you make a new post. You keep flopping back and forth on me, and not in a way that makes it look like a fluid read or a read you are uncertain of. It reeeeaaally looks like an excuse to coast and wagon when it's advantageous for you, and now you're doing the same with singer.

UNVOTE: redFF
VOTE: Staeg


Flameaxe--why singer over red?
Note to self to look up some BBM games. Has been a while--I want to see if the laconic style with no stated reads is typical townplay or not.


Would vote singer, bv310, scooby, all three by sheer strength of being utterly useless so far. However, there is a caveat on singer--she pulled pretty much the same uncooperating BS in Mafia Behind the Maiden. Glork has alluded to this. She can be obnoxious, obstructive and stubborn, but that doesn't make her scum. Worse than that--singertown doesn't react to pressure to step it up. That's a stupid compromise wagon that is likely to hit town. Votes on Staeg please and thank you.

As for redFF, if wishes were guns. Hoopla says red is showing an attitude he wouldn't as scum; how familiar are you with red's games, Hoopla? Can you provide evidence supporting this?


Would totes lynch Izzy. <3

[Tierce]

Nnngh have to meta Staeg. But WTF DUDE. Your play makes NO SENSE AS TOWN.

Whatever, bed bed bed.

[Tierce]

Tierce, considering how close we are to deadline (less than 72 hours by my count?), is it safe to assume that you consider Nhammen to be definitively protown? You literally haven't talked about him other than to say you are "interested" to see how Red reacts to him early on, and then to say that discussing the "I claim" tell "doesn't make him scum." Considering he is one of the main wagons of the day, it sounds an aaaaaawful lot like you really want to avoid the subject altogether. So, gun-to-head: Would you lynch him today or not? Why or why not?

He's not in my group of solid townreads; I'm short on time for analysis, which means anyone outside that group is a lynch I can live with. Frankly, at this moment I just want to sheep Hoopla and JD because brains + rationality + actually giving a damn, so if they are pushing a viable wagon at deadline, I'll pull a Katsuki-wagonhop.

It's going to be way closer to the deadline before I actually have time to further go through the game, this weekend is geocoinfest time for me. I'll be back after midnight.

[Tierce]

Shameless prod dodge, it's geocoinfest weekend.

[Tierce]

VOTE: singersigner

Wouldn't have expected yesterday's second wagon to hit scum too and the investigation target is odd, but I believe Psyche. The way that singer jumps on someone who is obviously town (Primate-Psyche kill makes sense from scum who were afraid of being targeted) and calls him a liar seems forced. She spends too many words saying it can't be a real result instead of actually claiming her role, and I can't believe that someone who has limited internet access would be that obstructive on purpose. Yes, singer is obnoxious as town, but this level of it seems contrived. She's not even considering a Framer, which is Normal.

And come to think of a Framer, why would a scumteam that doesn't include singer think "she was the obv-counterwagon to our goon, let's frame her because the cop is obviously going to investigate her!"? This makes no sense, most cops wouldn't bother with singer and she would be considered town for a few days due to the wagon.

tl;dr: While "you can't possibly have a guilty on me" can come from town, the "there is no way you actually

investigated

me seems contrived." Her reaction is terrible, and she is a very unlikely Framer target. Are you investigation immune

and

town? If so, why not claim it yesterday, since that can fuck with cops?


JDodge: Frankly I don't have proper reads atm, I didn't read the game during night. Will get to them today/tomorrow, but from memory, several of the late votes on nhammen seemed quite town, I don't see much reason for a bus at that stage.

[Tierce]

UNVOTE: singersigner

Going out, back later.

[Tierce]

'scuse me, then.
VOTE: singersigner

[Tierce]

JD, kindly bugger off, I've posted what reads I had when I had them. I don't really care if that's not enough for you. Being chided over playstyle was irritating enough, I won't have you calling me useless. I promised more tonight, you'll have more tonight.

Yes, I realize it's counterproductive, but the more you push me for stuff, the less willingness I have to do it. This is a game, it's supposed to be fun, and you're turning my favorite role/game approach into a

chore

. While I appreciate that you're actually trying to push the game forward, my days haven't exactly been spent in front of a computer (wooo!) and I do things in my own time. It's 24h into Day, take a chill pill.

[Tierce]

Actually, scratch that. Dealing with a migraine and even adjusted screen color isn't fixing it. Will reread tomorrow.

As I said, I liked those late jumps on the nhammen wagon, but this changes if singer is mafia too, especially if she is a scum PR; it could be scum taking the lesser of two evils and hoping for towncred + belief that singer-scum wouldn't be investigated/would gain a few days when nhammen flipped scum.

I want to pay attention to where the VT pool was voting during the day. I'll see what else comes to mind in Stuff That Needs To Be Checked and poke at it tomorrow.

[Tierce]

Just got home, haven't read up but this caught my eye:

tierce also went on kinda sorta VLA til just before deadline (still stalling hoping for a different outcome to the day?)

Don't you dare question my integrity like that, Rhinox. I don't fake V/LAs, that's lying to the mod. I was busy with geocoinfest, a geocaching event that lasted Friday-Sunday.

Will catch up on this after dinner.

[Tierce]

I haven't even looked at the rest of your post beyond the barest of skimmings; I'm a shameless attention whore and saw your post because I have an active search string for my name in the forums. I don't see a difference between declaring V/LA in-thread and editing it on the profile options, as it's equally visible for a mod who goes through Activity Overview.

I actually think that kind of lying is unethical regardless of alignment (and you can probably find this stance from me in MD, iirc), and tbqh there is evidence on the internet that I was busy then, since the event was logged and my presence listed. Either way--I'll address the rest of your points and y'know, actually bother rereading the game when I have time tonight; I was reminded I have a game session from 2 to 6 am (damn you, timezones) and need a nap before that. It's slow enought hat I can play and read at the same time, so I'll do that then.

[Tierce]

One kill N1 (+ Quilford-AGar), one kill N2--those scooby votes make no sense.

[Tierce]

Explain.

[Tierce]

I'd love to hear an explanation for that vote, considering that bv claimed gunsmith and cleared me N1.

[Tierce]

As easily explainable by two anti-town parties killing the cop on N2 and the cop not dying on N1 due to successful roleblock. I still think it reasonable to assume that there's another potential killing party on the cards but think it's unreasonable to act on that line of thought until tomorrow night now that the obvious NK targets have exhausted themselves (with the potential exception of Stag-if-town).

That's my point; it makes no sense to go after scooby for a claimed roleblock on him when we're not even certain if there are multiple killers in play aside from AGar. He can be scum, but that'd be a weird reason to vote him.

And having seen Staeg's play as scum in scumchat the other day, honestly, Staeg-scum derping this badly wouldn't surprise me. We know he didn't roleblock Psyche night one (and presumably not bv if bv is town), but actually doing so would be a tremendously stupid pick as scum after claiming roleblocker. He blocked two VT claims; we have no way of knowing whether or not he's an actual roleblocker.

That said, why would Staeg-scum announce a block on me and not on another of the VT claims? That makes little sense and I think he would have gone over it with his remaining buddy(ies).


However--scooby's reads are the cheapest thing.
- For someone who was trying to push a lynch on me, he had a very lame excuse to jump off when I said bv cleared me--instead of dropping it due to bv's gunsmith result, he dropped it because of

my reaction

to his vote? Why was my 'cocky' reaction to being cleared a townie reaction?
- His Simenon read is also scummy, because he is reducing Simenon's reads to three posts when there is a lot of inbetweens--between the first and second read were 100 posts, between the second and third 220 posts. Simenon is allowed to change is mind and compromise on the best lynch of the day.
- Finally, the JDodge townread--asking why someone doesn't suspect them is now a townie thing? I've seen scum and town repeatedly doing so, it can be a level of whiteknighting.

His reads are simplistic in general and his townreads weak; he does not feel like someone who is actually looking for towntells on people's posts, but seems to be using the general townreads in the thread to build his own with bullshit reasoning, because he's scum edging away from people who clearly will not be lynched at this stage.

It's odd that he was not aware that I was gunsmith-cleared, but I've seen scum distracted to the point that they didn't know someone was a mason even after a round of night play; this makes scooby-bv unlikely to be buddies, but doesn't decrease the likelihood that scooby is scum.

VOTE: scooby

[Tierce]

The quote stripe walls need to die a fiery death. And this is coming from me, which is of itself rather hilarious. Will read that madness later.


Not sure if I buy Quagmire's claim. On the one hand, it's a stupid scum claim, on the other hand, it's a good scum claim because of exactly that--people assume it's too stupid for scum to make it.

Quagmire, when did you do this "

[going]

back on day one"? And why didn't you have an issue with bev's claim, after there was a claim from a cop as well?

[Tierce]

Also loved how you hammered nhamman, providing now explanation, after your only previous comment on him was "don't get the nhamman hate"

Whoever did that, it wasn't scooby. He only mentioned nhammen once before hammer, and it was to say he would read him and singer both and reach a conclusion--which took like... 8 minutes or something?

[Tierce]

Nope, I got it--he called him nammen instead of nhammen, which made my search string completely ignore that. You're right.

[Tierce]

Why favor a goon over another goon? That's not remarkable in any manner.
(I'm also failing to see whether you mean "egregious" as "good" or "bad"; you people have a stupid language.)

[Tierce]

No, that's exactly my point--they were both scum, they were both goons, it makes no sense for Simenon-scum to favor one over the other. I was just confused with the application of 'egregious'. (Admittedly, I woke up 5 min before I posted. ) I mused a bit over the final nhammen votes once Psyche claimed a guilty on singer, as it would make sense for scum to protect singer-PR over nhammen-vanilla (or a better player over another, but singer isn't a spectacular player either way), but with both of them goons, that theory makes no sense--as you've seen, though for a different reason.

On a somewhat related note, this also gives you townpoints; you had the same gut reaction I had, revulsion at the singer lynch when she started acting obstructive and emotional, due to the similarities with Maf. Maiden. Your behavior doesn't seem contrived, it was a "ew, no, been there done that this slot is town BAD LYNCH BAD LYNCH" from someone who thought they had gone through the same scenario recently.

[Tierce]

Apparently one that you aren't, since one of the gunsmith innocents is in your lynch list.

What is the part of the quote that you're disagreeing with? Did I slip to Portuguese again while I wasn't looking?
I was explaining why I don't think Simenon's reaction to the nhammen/singer wagons on D1 is scummy, unlike what was proposed on early D2 by Glork; there was no reason for Simenon-scum to push hypo-singer-town over nhammen-scum, given that singer flipped scum too.

[Tierce]

"Once Psyche claimed a guilty on singer

[on D2]

, I mused a bit over the final nhammen votes

[on D1]

, as it would make sense for scum to protect singer-PR over nhammen-vanilla

[on D1]

[...]

"

That's how it should read for easier parsing.


As for the rest--I'm baffled. How and when did I try to get Quagmire lynched?

[Tierce]

I haven't read New Age Mafia I. Yes, I know I should. Two claims of the same PR usually contradict each other. I've been burned badly for accepting both can be town; in Mafia Behind the Maiden, there was a town nation-cop and a scum rolecop, and both claimed nation-cop. I believed them both, ended up voting the wrong one and that led to a scum win that day. As scum, in Paranoia,

I

did the "this is too stupid a gambit to come from scum, so it's coming from town" counterclaim silliness, so I've been on both sides of the play.

The doubled roles wouldn't be atypical in this game due to New Age Mafia I, so I'm proceeding as before. I don't particularly care if voicing a doubtful opinion gives you an itchy finger.

[Tierce]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=9630

[Tierce]

Rhinox is town. He's trying to shoehorn a scumread in, regardless of night results that make his theory outlandish--he's not afraid to present them. I've been in that position; scum don't really do Wild Mass Guessing, it's something town do because town is not afraid they'll be laughed at. The extra information scum have on who their buddies are and what power they have (especially in this setup) means they're not too likely to make this kind of insane speculation, because it would simply be too out of left-field and they think it would be dismissed with laughter.
With a lot fewer players, when the game is on the line, it's a different thing, but the fact he's doing it now says town.

[Tierce]

@OGML: Can we have prods on Glork and Simenon, please?

[Tierce]

i'm a cop.

I am a roleblocker.

Claiming roleblocker and then going after the claimed cop would be suicide as scum, so there's a reason for Stag-scum not to roleblock iamausername/Psyche.

However

, Staeg claimed roleblocker after IAAUN claimed cop; he simply could have claimed something else and blocked IAAUN that night. The fact that he claimed roleblocker after the cop claim is an indicator of town.

You're going after derp-play, JDodge. I'd love to purge that as a matter of principle, but Staeg isn't scum.

So... where did Simenon, scooby and bev go, again?

[Tierce]

Exactly.

That said, why would Staeg-scum announce a block on me and not on another of the VT claims? That makes little sense and I think he would have gone over it with his remaining buddy(ies).

It's stupid? Yes. Does it speak of scum mentality? No. Staeg-scum would still have buddies who would grill him on this night action claim-choice last night, so he wouldn't claim something this ridiculous.

[Tierce]

If he's not a roleblocker, he's scum--there is very little benefit for town to fakeclaim on a D1 massclaim, and Staeg isn't really one to gambit AFAIK, so he'd be unlikely to be fakeclaiming town. And again, if he's fakeclaiming scum, the claimed block on me makes absolutely no sense--regardless of whether or not he blocked me, claiming it would be too stupid to come from scum.

No matter how I look at it, I see town roleblocker Staeg and nothing else.

Seriously, if you want evidence of Stag being a derp (and somewhat dead weight), go read Weather Mafia II.

It's evident the slot is town; just ignore it and

move on

. Stop grumping about it. There's no need to push Staeg. Yeah, it sucks that we have two slots that are clear/proven town that won't pull their weight, but just cross them off your list and move on. Let them be a problem for scum, who have to choose whether to kill lazy obvtown or people who are actually trying to root out scum. We have a great start, don't go about stupid policy lynches on D3.

[Tierce]

Post.

Will catch up after midnight.

[Tierce]

...and by midnight I mean after I sleep. There's no way I can focus on a game tonight.

[Tierce]

I keep getting distracted and forgetting about this and then Eberron and--I'll just get to reading

now

before I forget again.

[Tierce]

@Scooby Voters

What specifically do you find scummier about scooby than Rhinox? I want examples and shit.

Rhinox's scumread on me was absurd to the point in which I don't think a combination of bv310-town/Rhinox-scum would work, as Rhinox-scum would know that trying to pin a scumread on a gunsmith innocent at this stage is pretty ridiculous and not go down that road.

As for scooby, see Post 745.

[Tierce]

@OGML: Can we get Simenon replaced? It has been a week since his last post.

And a VC, please.

[Tierce]

- We did a mass claim.
- We lynched scum days 1 and 2.
- Current wagons are on Rhinox and scooby
- Current scooby voters cannot give any solid reasoning behind scooby lynch other than he claimed VT and hasn't been posting the most content in the world. Nothing actually scummy about him.
- Rhinox claimed some weird mafia-NK-immune neighbor role when there's only evidence of me (1-shot vig) having killing power outside of the mafia. Has played awfully and tried to push very weak bullshit cases. Had a scumread on singer D1, only to recant when the cop guilty came about on D2, instead liking to believe that the claimed cop was lying about his result.
- You should vote for Rhinox.

Thanks for ignoring my points on scooby! <3

With that said, Rhinox's latest is a bad post and he should be ashamed of it.

[Tierce]

Glork? Why have you been online and active elsewhere and not here at all?

[Tierce]

48h != 5 days since your last post, and it's not my job to ensure you're active elsewhere, I'm playing with you

in this game

. It's good that you're keeping yourself busy, but I'm not a mind-reader, so tone down the pointless aggression.

[Tierce]

I think Rhinox is town, but there's logic in that his flip might point us toward the possibility of another faction/SK. I disagree with Bella that a mislynch is worse than no-lynch at this point, though--a mislynch gives us info, a no-lynch gives us nothing.

I'll switch at deadline, but frankly the resistance to scooby's wagon is getting ridiculous. I don't see anyone making a half-decent case as to why he is town, when there are plenty of signs towards Rhinox-town, including his frustrated resignation. We're ahead, but there's no reason to be making stupid blunders today.

I'd lynch redFF, but there doesn't seem to be a ton of support for it.

I'd lynch Flameaxe, too.

Glork--we're both on scooby. Want to try this?

UNVOTE: scooby
VOTE: redFF

[Tierce]

I'll be around tomorrow and can jump elsewhere. I'd just like to make sure that everyone who does this makes sure it doesn't end in a potential no-lynch, i.e. they are available to create a compromise wagon before deadline.

[Tierce]

You're boring.

UNVOTE: redFF
VOTE: Flameaxe

[Tierce]

Rhinox, Staeg, JD, Quagmire--get in here. We have enough time for this, and of you four only Quagmire has a vote that is on a likely lynch wagon.

[Tierce]

Unofficial Vote Count:

8 to lynch

Rhinox: 6 (

Quagmire,

redFF, AGar, scooby, Flameaxe, Bella, Knight of Cydonia)
Flameaxe: 6 (Glork, Tierce, MichelSableheart, Hoopla, Staeg, Quagmire)
scooby: 1 (

Glork, Tierce, Hoopla, Staeg,

Rhinox,

MichelSableheart

)
Staeg: 1 (JDodge)

redFF: 0 (

Tierce

)

Not Voting: 0

(

MichelSableheart

)

Current Deadline:

Saturday August 25th, 10 PM EST

[Tierce]

I'll be here until deadline. Downloading functional browsers and whatnot, but I have access and can change to Rhinox if we need to prevent a no-lynch.

Where are you, JD? Your main account not working is no excuse to not keep an eye on this.

[Tierce]

VOTE: scooby

[Tierce]

No, I don't think I want to vote Rhinox. I want to vote whoever pushed that god awful Flameaxe wagon yesterday. Because holy shit that looks so bad it's not even funny.

Glork and Tierce pulled the Flameaxe wagon out of their collective asses. If you had to lynch one, who would you prefer?

Have you looked at the context?

Both wagons were stalled. Glork and I have townreads on Rhinox. If my townread is being wagoned that close to deadline and the choice is between a no-lynch, lynching a townread or lynching a null read, I'm going for option c).

Also, I want to slap you.

The deadline is looming. We can let things carry on as they are and no lynch. This nets the town nothing and is pretty much a useless approach to take. We can lynch Scooby, and get a probable town flip which is even worse than a no lynch. We could lynch Rhinox and deal with his awkward claim, thus removing an obstacle to town finding scum and/or netting us a scumbag. Or we could rush to somebody else who needs to die (aka Stag).

Stagwagon seems unlikely to come to pass before deadline. Thus, we should lynch Rhinox at teh very least as a practical matter.

Good job getting your no lynch, Tierce.

Wake the hell up.

I've been an Innocent Child before, I know it can be frustrating, but ffs, just look at what you've been posting, Izzy. Reread the game instead of going in another inane tunnel like the one on Staeg. Rhinox is very likely town. I can trust your motivations, but I can't trust your reads worth a damn and that is a terrible feeling.


I guess I should take my own advice and reread this too. Let's see if I do it tonight.

[Tierce]

Yes how dare Rhinox not want to get lynched regardless of alignment and how dare he vote his own counterwagon.

Please.

You are not

that

dense.


Also I am considerably drunk and I have not yet done that reread. >.> Probably not the most efficient use of time the last two nights.

[Tierce]

If the vote switch involves people having a townread on Rhinox, how should that change with a Flameaxe and Staeg townflip?

Please explain that one.

[Tierce]

Prod dodge; still have to reread and tonight is game time.

[Tierce]

I'm demotivated about this game in a manner that is really absurd. It makes no sense. I don't think it was the D1 massclaim, it's probably the low activity. Granted, that is also my fault, but... just sitting here, not motivated to go through what was already posted. We're still ahead, there's no reason I should feel this bleh about it--the last time I was so irked and demotivated about a game was Mini 1333, but the circumstances are not the same.

Question, redFF--what alignment do you prefer playing as?

@OGML: I'll be LA from the 15th to the 22nd.

[Tierce]

It's limited access, not gone altogether. I'll have internet access at home, but I won't be home much because there are Places To Visit.

I'll check redFF's games once I get up. There's a pattern I'm looking for, let's see if it exists.

[Tierce]

Prod dodge; will catch up tomorrow.

[Tierce]

Something quick as I do stuff elsewhere:

It still makes no sense for Glork to be scum. You people are forgetting the way singer dealt with the massclaim D1; Glorkscum would not go into D1 without making sure his buddies were prepared to handle something like this. In addition, Glork is too good a player to make a throwaway comment like he did about Quagscum. He's just town that can't be arsed, and

Izzy

you lot are barking up the wrong tree

again

.

And if we're going to wonder about the NKs, Hoopla and Glork make both sense as targets for last night--but Hoopla was the one with a gunsmith clear on her, which makes her a prioritized kill.

The Rhinox vote is still stupid, though.

tl;dr: I think Glork is town and we'd better not have any of that 'why is he (still) alive' nonsense, that's what scum want.

[Tierce]

Why the FUCK are we going to lynch from the vanilla pool when ITS FUCKING OBVIOUS the scum or scum lefts are some kind of power role??

both a cop and a gunsmith means we probably have more than one scum with a PR or a scum + SK.

So, Tierce and Rhinox need to be lynched sooner or later.

Vote: Rhinox

Can some of you stop being retarded?

Really now?

So I have a gunsmith innocent on me, and you're claiming I can be some kind of gunsmith-godfather (a Mafia Doctor, in a Normal). But how does that make me more likely to be scum than

anyone else in the claimed vanilla pool

? There is cognitive dissonance here, you are not following along with your idea that the 'last scum' has a godfather-power when you avoid considering the rest of the vanilla pool as possible scum.

You do not have a coherent line of thought, which means you are not following along on an actual town-thought.

VOTE: scooby


Oh, another reason Rhinox is town: does anyone doubt he has the role he has? Why would he claim a non-Normal role when he's risking other two people claiming non-Normal (he claimed before two others at least, iirc), which would create a situation in which at least one of the three was lying. The only way he could lie about his claimed role comfortably was if another scum had a non-Normal role and had already claimed something Normal, opening a non-Normal claim-slot for him. But that makes little sense.


Hai scoom-by. Bitter you can't kill Rhinox?~

[Tierce]

Haven't done it. Not interested in it at the moment. I'm filing it away for later use if necessary, as I know what pattern I'm looking for.

...and yes, I have a townread on Rhinox and I'm voting scooby, thanks for summing up my post...?

[Tierce]

Tierce: You know that vote on scooby is dumb. His roleblock is just as many townpoints as the gunless result on you.

...how so? He was roleblocked, but there was more than one scum alive back then. Not blocking a kill doesn't mean that Staeg didn't block a non-killing scum.

I think KoC is town because I had a decent townread on bv310, but that logic that "he claimed my exact role" giving him townpoints... heeeh I don't like it from you. What would you say if bev had claimed a 1-shot of something not a gunsmith? It wouldn't be much of an issue for him, and the way you're giving it a pass from your claimed role doesn't sit well with me.

[Tierce]

...mod provided fakeclaims? In a Normal? Since when?
And gunsmith would be a rather likely claim as scum--especially when you know who your team is and there is an ongoing massclaim. Look, I think he's town, but your reasoning makes no sense from town.

And that application of the Razor is very wrong. The fact that scooby didn't kill anyone one night doesn't mean anything unless you have something that points for the likelihood of scooby-scum making the kill on that night,

in which case

it might make some sense to discard that possibility for now. Seriously, there are no townpoints there and I can't understand your logic.

[Tierce]

ITT,




(Also, CES, this is a Normal game--Gunsmiths can catch Godfathers afaik--they don't match false-negatives with cops at all.)

[Tierce]

Hey guys, guess what I found.

scooby is a scum roleblocker, and the scum tried to block Psyche N1.

The catch is that Staeg got lucky and hit the block with his own roleblock--which apparently, following OGML's action resolution, allowed Psyche's cop action to go through.

Look:

There's literally no way

[Psyche]

actually investigated me last night

(unless OGML fucked up Normal Game guidelines--but he's a good mod, so)

.

He's either lying scum or lying town, which I won't really be able to go back and check until my internet's fixed on Wednesday morning or I find a Starbucks.

(given iam's play, and then his own, I'm inclined to believe the latter)

There is no way singer would say the bolded with that specific turn of phrase unless the scum had messed with Psyche's role in some manner on N1. singer's reaction is not one of "I was Framed/the cop is fakeclaiming scum"; it's one of "the cop cannot possibly have this result", which is scumtalk for "I have no idea how this happened". She actually believed Psyche was lying ad didn't jump on him--that's scum thinking that the roleblocked cop is gambiting. Staeg only revealed his block target thirty posts later:

Oh, that - I rb'd scooby

[N1]

.

They knew they needed to take out Primate first, which meant Psyche would be around on D2 with one result--which meant they had to intervene and make sure he had no result to give via a well-placed roleblock. Staeg blocked a scum roleblocker and gave us that guilty on singer.

Raise a glass to Stag and Psyche and let's lynch this.

[Tierce]

Unofficial Vote Count:

6 to lynch

Rhinox: 4 (scooby, redFF, Glork, AGar)
redFF: 1 (Quagmire)
Quagmire: 1 (Cogito Ergo Sum)
Glork: 1 (Bella)
scooby: 1 (Tierce)

Not Voting: 2 (Rhinox, Knight of Cydonia)

Current Deadline:

Friday, October 5th, 10 PM EST


Come on. You can get out of your pit of inactivity to lynch scum for the fourth time, right? ^_^

[Tierce]

singer's words don't nip

scooby

from the phrase itself. But they mean that the scum did something to Psyche on N1. We've massclaimed--there's only one claimed (and, in this case, confirmed via flip) town role that could have prevented "Psyche does not have a result on N1"--and that is a roleblock on whatever the scum planned to unleash on Psyche. This means that whoever Staeg blocked N1 is the scum that was tampering with Psyche--and that means scooby.

I called scooby a scum roleblocker, but I guess he could also be a Tailor (targeting singer in that case; the end result is the same) or some weird non-Normal business, since we have space for one more via Rhinox's claim. The important thing is that

scooby, a claimed VT, was messing with singer's N1 action and Staeg prevented it

.

Don't hate on my tinfoil hat, it keeps the ducks away.

[Tierce]

I'm saving your ass

and

lynching scum here, Rhinox. Come on over. You too, Izzy Child.

[Tierce]

So you're proposing scooby is scum AND is bussing his last buddy when there are so many town players to go about, redFF?

Get real. If scooby is scum, Rhinox is really obvtown.

[Tierce]

Hey look, Glork is complaining right after someone got hammered. That's cool.

I understand apathy, Glork. But frankly, you can't complain after it was clear that people were waiting on your Quagmire case for days and got nothing for their trouble. People did what you wanted and massclaimed D1. We have three dead scum. I think scooby is going to flip scum. If the game isn't over by now, try to put a bit more effort into it, please?

[Tierce]

So you're proposing scooby is scum AND is bussing

his last buddy

when there are so many town players to go about, redFF?

Get real. If scooby is scum, Rhinox is really obvtown.

WAIT, LAST BUDDY?

VOTE: TIERCE

4 scum in a 19 player game isn't far-fetched, though maybe on the weak side. This isn't a slip. Don't try and paint it thus.

Actually I was saying it was 5 scum--from redFF's perspective, he seems to be calling scooby AND Rhinox scum. I'm saying why it makes no sense for scooby to be bussing Rhinox (who would be, in that case, scooby's 'last buddy') at this stage when then are already three dead scum. There is very little benefit for scooby-scum if Rhinox-scum gets lynched at this stage since there are other viable town targets. THAT is what makes Rhinox obvtown should scooby flip scum.

[Tierce]

I'll believe you are town when I see OGML post your alignment in green. Until then, yeah, feel free to rant however much you want, that's not going to change my mind.

[Tierce]

Uhm, because lying is what scum do? If the game isn't over, you have to protect your last buddy. That seems pretty evident. The alternative for scum is not to post, but some post anyway, so...?

Call me an idiot all you want, say I 'deserve' to get lynched all you want--it's not going to happen. If you're town, I'm sorry,but I'll discuss that postgame and adjust my reads accordingly during night/Tomorrow. Expecting me to do so without a flip is, guess what,

idiotic

.

[Tierce]

Because I'm tired of being called stupid in this game. I'm the only one doing an effort at this stage, and if that's not good enough, there are NINE OTHER PEOPLE who aren't doing a thing, and SEVEN OF THEM at least are town. I understand laziness, I understand apathy, but what the hell? We lynched three scum in four days, and this is what we are reduced to? Complaining that my case is bad and not presenting alternatives at all?

I may not be as experienced as most of this playerlist, but I want to play this game. Even though it's a Large Normal and I far and beyond prefer Themes, the playerlist was what drove me into this game. And being Town is freaking awesome. But when I'm the only one pulling the weight, and then get called an idiot and have people saying I'll get lynched for being the one doing my goddamn job? Not cool.

If scooby is scum, great, I'm arguing with scum and arguing with my scumreads is what I end up doing anyway. If he's town, he's a jerk and I'm not sorry for this lynch due to how D2 turned out.

[Tierce]

Tierce's posting reads more to me like someone trying to REALLY REALLY IMPRESS US with some sort of bizarre, ill-thought out play more than it reads scum to me, tbh.

Stop trying so damn hard.

What do you think about the point I brought up about umoms?

you brought up a point about umoms? i was under the impression that he called out your bullshit and you chalked it up to wifom

nah man he whined and omgus'd me without actually addressing anything. Idk where you're coming up with this wifom you think happened but I didn't chalk anything up to wifom ever.

More importantly, why are you answering for agar?

Or if you really feel the need to answer you can at least say why you think my point was bullshit. You asked me to clarify my comment which I did. Were you not interested in the answer?

I meant to type OMGUS not WIFOM; rust.

I'm terribly fucking sorry for daring to interrupt your interrogation, sir. I'll have my resignation on your desk by Thursday.

Your comment still makes no fucking sense.

Seriously, anyone who had reasons for thinking umoms was scummy... for fucks sake, die already.

This statement bothers me a lot. AGar seems to be far too sure that no one could have had valid reasons to think umoms was scummy. I don't think he even knows what the reasons are in most cases, and yet he blanket condemns them all.

Do you realize that this appears very much like trying to stifle discussion, right? This is very odd, especially after your comment that the game has a slow start.

This is also bothersome, because saying it 'appears like' stifling discussion suggests that nhammen knows that is not actually umoms' intent. But nhammen has been so consistent in sounding contrived at all times that I suspect it could be a personality tell more than a scumtell. Could do some meta reading to get a better idea if this is true or not, but let's be honest, I probably can't be bothered.

Unvote, Vote redFF

. Found somewhere better for my vote. I don't like the general brushing aside of the wagon just because it was quick. Justifying the fact that he and everyone else was only in it for the lol quicklynch, and there was generally nothing behind it. Giving people shit for prying into the votes on a bandwagon (spoiler alert: kind of the result of early bandwagoning, brah).

Yeah, unlike, say Tierce, who is sticking to her ridiculous guns, redFF is trying desperately to play down his association with the attempted quicklynch when he was one of the biggest proponents of it. And his attack on Rhinox in post 119 is tremendously insincere. He clearly didn't have a problem with Rhinox wanting umoms to address the points against her when he made post 99, but as soon as Rhinox starts getting some backlash, suddenly Rhinox is being totally dumb to suggest that there's anything for umoms to address. I don't see how you can reconcile those two posts.

UNVOTE: umoms
VOTE: redFF

You seem to be being

really

conservative and cautious with your language.

~~

I've slept on it, and I think Tierce is the way to go, you guys. Her bizarre play reeks of being caught in doing something stupid, and she seems smart enough to understand why that style of play is stupid.

No because pardon me if I'm wrong but I don't think you've been around at the right time to know Tierce well and I think her behaviour is summed up perfectly by what JDodge and Bella said in Post #168. I do wish she'd stop talking about it, though.

~~

So vote Rhinox instead. UT is also a tops vote.

I've slept on it, and I think Tierce is the way to go, you guys. Her bizarre play reeks of being caught in doing something stupid, and she seems smart enough to understand why that style of play is stupid.

No because pardon me if I'm wrong but I don't think you've been around at the right time to know Tierce well and I think her behaviour is summed up perfectly by what JDodge and Bella said in Post #168. I do wish she'd stop talking about it, though.

You could be right but I do hang out in scumchat often so you could be wrong too. I can see where you're coming from, but I'm voting for her because of her reaction to it all. It seems there's too much 'trying-to-cover-my-tracks' nonsense.

Also the last PBPA post above ^^^^^^ also is trying too hard. It smells terrible to me.

Tierce needs to step the fuck up as well.

You're not the boss of me~ And funnily enough,

no one

but the dead guy wants to lynch me. Get over yourself. /o/ If you're town, you're not as rewarding a lynch as Robbnva, but you're getting up there at this rhythm.

[Tierce]

Those quotes got there by (mostly) accident. Yes, I'm tired of being called stupid.

[Tierce]

I'm more and more convinced that one of the two Gunsmiths is scum. And Quagmire's claim doesn't make sense from scum.

VOTE: Knight of Cydonia

I can finally say another reason I didn't think singer was scum on D1--I replaced into a scum-UT slot in Abarat, didn't expect UT's other flake-game to be a scum one too.

[Tierce]

Claiming Gunsmith

after

Bev of Cydonia did it? It would be a very risky move.

[Tierce]

I have town reads on Glork, quag, Scooby and CES. Scooby and Quag are the two strongest of those I'd say.

Bella is innocent child.

I seem to remember liking Bev as town for some reason, need to reread but yeah I don't really wanna lynch KoC.

I think there's scum in Tierce and rhinox, possibly both. Tierce has done nothing this game. Day 1 she was on rhinox but he was in no danger of being lynched, wasn't on nhammen wagon. Day 2 she got on Singer but w/e. Day 3 she tunneled scooby who is and was obvtown and then when it looked like rhinox was being lynched initiated a mass switch to flameaxe.

Tierce

, what changed between day 1 and 3 to make Rhinox go from one of your top suspects to someone who you saved from being lynched?[/b] I honestly think this change in attitude towards Rhinox may condemn them both. She was also on Scooby yesterday and not Sableheart. Tierce is generally regarded as a good player, so either she's really off her game or scum. She's also been tunneling on me, and seems to have some meta stuff on me she's researching, where is that Tierce?

in fact

vote:tierce

Agar depends on Rhinox's flip for me but could be SK, Rhinox's role looks weird if he's telling the truth and all we have is 1 scumteam and a 1 shot vig. Would like a rhinox flip, dunno why you guys are so against it.

That's actually a pretty solid catch from Tierce, and I'm inclined to agree. Rhinox is still scum I agree with Quagmire about that last post. He's at L-1 right now and I'll hammer later tonight if nobody has any objections.

Are you guys fucking kidding me if theres 2 scum left its rhinox and tierce lets go

vote:tierce

Shes saved rhinox twice by lynching townies instead.

Riiiight. Your townread on scooby evaporated the moment you saw the possibility of getting him lynched, but you stayed off the wagon. Now it's my fault? I'm only a fake redhead, go find a better scapegoat for something you did not oppose

coming from a scumread

.

In addition, your order of lynchings is borked. You know I defend townreads to the bone, red--so this reeks of "let's lynch Tierce, when she flips Town let's move to Rhinox because she was Wrong". Logically, as Town, you would go for Rhinox first to see if there was any merit to that accusation, but nope, let's lynch the defender first because

that makes perfect sense.

(Hint: it does not.
(Hint: it's because you're scum.))

UNVOTE: Knight of Cydonia
VOTE: redFF


CES, I still think it would be a rather risky move by Quagmire when he could have ended up lynched via essentially counterclaiming KoC--but what do I know. And I'm not questioning KoC's role, just his alignment.

Looks like I

will

have to do some meta research after all.

[Tierce]

Good luck with that.

[Tierce]

Tierce, please explain why you think Quag's claim is not consistent with scum. It came late (last, in fact), mirrored another role for "credibility," and produced a result that never really served to help the town.

He also defended BOTH NHAM AND SINGER (Post 439 and Post 515 respectively), and has spent literally the entire game going after probable protown players (Tierce, Glork, Rhinox?). He also showed a strong preference to wanting to lynch redFF over Michel/Sim, and generally backed Sim earlier.

Quag's play is consistent with scum who only threw down against his buddies when he absolutely had to.

Vote: Quag

vote: redff

Nope because I've tried to lynch rhinox all game and nobody wants to so im trying something else.

You're both scum doesn't matter who dies first.

Its because I'm town.

And Tierce is probably town too (unless she's scum with quag). If she was scum and wanted to attack the gunsmiths today, scum would have better chances going after quag knowing that glork was out there somewhere with a case to lynch quag. That is, unless quag is also scum with tierce.

Why am I scum rhinox?

Still very fine with voting redFF.

Glork, the thing is that mirroring another claim does

not

normally give anyone credibility. It's something that raises eyebrows. It's a risky move to claim something that has already been claimed word for word. And frankly, no one went after Quagmire because you kept promising a case yesterday and then only showed up to complain about a mislynch. If you want Quagmire lynched, you are going to have to do better than that. I didn't think nhammen and singer were scum either, and iirc I stood with Simenon on a couple of instances, so the way you're painting Quagmire as scum for agreeing with scum doesn't convince me, when you're not showing how people with confirmed alignment (i.e. flipped scum) interacted with him. You're essentially accusing him of having bad interactions with scum, but town also does that--I want evidence that it's a two-way street.

[Tierce]

Oh, wait--yeah, that reminded me of something I wanted to do, which was milking the massclaim order for connections. A moment, I'm grabbing that one.

[Tierce]

redFF - VT
nhammen - VT
Tierce - VT
Rhinox - factional bulletproof + neighbor
Popcorned to Hoopla/umoms. Then the order fell apart because umoms is a flake, so there isn't really much to figure out from the others except any potential delays in claiming.

But... yeah, that makes redFF not scum, Glork had a great point about it.

UNVOTE: redFF

[Tierce]

I want to reread Knight of Cydonia's slot. Shea flurks as both alignments, but my impression is that he does it more as scum. (Of note, since it's no longer relevant, I wanted to see if you had more prevalence in replacing out of games depending on your alignment, redFF.) And bev's claim was late and safe, with a lot of roles claimed in the meantime he could fake info on in the off-chance he's not really a gunsmith.

Will try to reread this before the weekend.

[Tierce]

@OGML: KoC hasn't posted here in a week. Prod/replace, please?

[Tierce]

Sorry about that. ...no, I haven't read yet.

@mod: can we have an extension to the deadline?

[Tierce]

I don't think he's scum, but he's still the least likely to flip town among the wagons. redFF's connections to nhammen are not scum/scum, and neither is Glork's appeal to massclaim due to the way singer reacted. Even considering that she wasn't in the game from the start, there would have been some sort of QT pregame discussion she could refer to.

VOTE: Quagmire

[Tierce]

I hate this game.

Glork - Not scum for massclaim; singer replaced in, yes, but she would have not messed it up so badly if Glork had mentioned it in the QT. Admittedly, I have just pulled a fake dumb-scum move in Open 453, got lynched by it, and made Townies look terrible and helped my scumbuddy win in the process. I don't think that's what singer was doing, though.
Rhinox - His claim makes sense; Rhinox isn't a high-priority kill in this setup, so it makes little sense that scum Rhinox would resort to a claim like that, especially since it's a non-Normal role.
Knight of Cydonia - Scum Gunsmith? Possible. Post 1364 is bad; he's wording it as if scum don't ever bus, and trying to discredit Izzy for her vote.
redFF - The popcorning order is a very good thing in his favor.
Cogito Ergo Sum - I had a Townread on JD for giving a damn, but I really can't read CES.

I want to reread D1 and D2 before voting.

[Tierce]

So this reread thing hasn't happened yet.

:effort:

Will seriously try to do so tomorrow.

[Tierce]

HEY TIERCE, HOW IS THAT READ COMING ALONG?

No.
More.
Fucking.
Excuses.

If I don't see tangible effort in 48 hours, I'm voting Tierce, gunsmith be damned.

This is pretty rich coming from you. :/ It will get done, don't worry.

[Tierce]

Rhinox: Even with one of his scumbuddies as his scum suspect, it doesn't make sense for redFF to start the massclaim and popcorn to nhammen if he is scum. None at all.

It boils down to redFF's skill level. If it was some other player doing it (say Faraday, Equinox, Llamarble, Glork, Nacho...), I wouldn't consider this tell. But as it is, it's stone solid. Players who aren't really damn good at the game don't even consider popcorning to a buddy that early in massclaim. It's a question of protecting your win chances, and forcing your buddies to claim early does NOT protect your win chances. While, in my experience, redFF can be rather selfish (in relation to his team) as scum, he wouldn't deliberately do something that hinders his team so much and, more importantly (see his skill level) he wouldn't consider doing it as a magnificent Towntell.

Massclaiming is hard to learn to do as scum. It's even harder to learn how to do in D1. It's not something that pops up that often, especially that early. redFF would not popcorn to nhammen if he was scum with nhammen, because that 1) limits the information he gets out of Town players before scum have to claim and 2) limits the choices nhammen would have when it comes to claiming something believable.

In xudeR aifaM esreveR, PiggyGal was scum and had a 'scumread' on someone and a Townread on Vi and me (Sixty). If you look at the scum QT (linked at the end of the game), you will see how PiggyGal and her buddy were adamant in not having her buddy claim immediately after Piggy did. She popcorned to

us

, a Townread.

tl;dr: Scum that are not too comfortable playing scum/are not that experienced simply don't start massclaim and popcorn to a buddy. Go through games, I doubt you'll see this happen in any measurable fashion. I'd vote anyone, even Glork, before I vote redFF.


It would be very much like Glork

not

to mention the suicidal D1 massclaim play on the QT for the resulting Townpoints when his buddies inevitably failed at massclaim. Glork is fine with dispatching dead weight whenever possible.


And while we are at it, why is Izzy dead instead of Glork? If there are two scum alive, this is MyLo. That could explain why Izzy is dead--as few innocents alive in MyLo/LyLo as possible. But Glork is far more capable of scumhunting than Izzy, even though his play here is far from stellar. :/


Glork, Rhinox--please paraphrase the last few posts on the neighborhood QT, please.

[Tierce]

@OGML: Please prod KoC.

[Tierce]

Stop being all suave and stuff. I'm not falling for your fancy cryptic ways.

And no, it wouldn't be out of place, especially if it's MyLo. I was working on a bit of EV last night--everything that removes a confirmed innocent from the equation adds quite a lot to scum's win chances.

My question is: should we No Lynch?

[Tierce]

This is ridiculous. I don't have a scumread, much less two.

Why do you think there's only one scum left, CES?

[Tierce]

I extend inactivity beyond the borders of the impossible, and Glork still doesn't vote me. After saying he would do so--I present something that is a waffly analysis of some players with one single concrete position, and

that

is content enough for him? It should have raised red flags as a dismissive way to get him off my back, it talked about a Townread that is in no danger, and he just takes it.

Town Glork would have been on me in a flash.

VOTE: Glork

[Tierce]

Current Deadline: Sunday, November 11th, 10 PM EST

This should be fun.

@OGML: Prods, please. Look at that Activity Overview.

[Tierce]

This is so stupid.

UNVOTE: Glork
VOTE: Knight of Cydonia

[Tierce]

No intentions to.

[Tierce]

...bah.

Yes, most of this game was my fault (since I haven't been killing since N2). But I was really convinced there couldn't be more than one scum (besides me) left, which--well--you know the result to that.

[Tierce]

I'm still not getting the whole BP, investigative immune, non-compulsive SK

I wasn't investigation-immune. That's why I targeted Psyche twice. Serial Killers are, per Normal guidelines, Gunsmith negatives (like Mafia doctors). They have knives instead of guns. You can't think that a game like this would have an SK with a Cop and two other 1-shot roles that might nail it.

I was full Bulletproof, yes, and if CES had gone and shot me, I would have been screwed because I would have been confirmed BP to him.

As for Non-Compulsive, I stand by SKs not being Compulsive (...as my play should show). Mafia can choose not to kill strategically, I don't know why SKs would have to kill. Being underground and prolonging the game and its general apathy was helping me more than outing the existence of an SK, even if I brought down the numbers; I was cleared by interactions (failing to bus

all

my buddies seemed a bit ridiculous) and by the Gunsmith result--adding a known 3rd party to the game would have probably blown up on my face.

Bah humbug, etc. Good job to the scumteam, in particular the CES/JDodge slot.

[Tierce]

Assuming you aren't trolling, the point was that I was

specifically

playing (and no-killing) for the SK not to be a known factor, so the surprise isn't... well, a surprise.

If Rhinox were Town and there was a lynch on not-me D8, I would have won. If wishes were knives on the backs of Townies...

[Tierce]

Then I'm flattered. There wasn't much that was spectacular on my end, but admittedly, as SK I needed to look Townish enough to not get lynched, but not too Townish that I would attract a NK and reveal that I was BP in a game with no claimed roleblockers after Staeg died. I think I did that satisfactorily, I was just damned by the setup and Rhinox's great claim that made perfect sense from my PoV.

...also. Staeg blocked my kill N2. The action was 'stupid' because it was irrelevant (both the mafia and I aimed at Psyche), but if that hadn't happened, he would have stopped a SK. Derpy choice, but good luck there, Stag.

[Tierce]

This is so stupid.

UNVOTE: Glork
VOTE: Knight of Cydonia

"This is so stupid... but I'm gonna do it anyway!"
Never reproduce.

Okay, I admit, it wasn't stupid from my particular PoV--you can hardly blame me for it given the circumstances I expected to exist.

(I'm still not interested in having children, either way~)

[Tierce]

I know you were bulletproof--but I would win any ties with scum, so I would have endgamed you. In short: I counted as Town for endgame numbers purposes (1:2:1 became 1+1:2), but outranked mafia in ties.

[Tierce]

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