Mafia 105 - Caught in the Crossfire (Game Over)

[Sotty7]

/Confirm

Howdy!

[Sotty7]

Drunk love!

... I gets none

[Sotty7]

Vote: Sigma

Also not entirely random. I decided to vote for someone who has beaten me before

[Sotty7]

@csl- I expect more posts from you, besides the weekend. If you can't treat this game as a commitment than you should ask for a replacement. I don't care if we are out of the rvs,

vote csl

This is random. Why did you comment on CSL out of everyone who wasn't posting at this point?

Budja is correct.
You're not going to like hearing this, SpyreX, but now that I've seen the gap between you-Town and you-scum it's pretty easy to pick out.

Details?

Can't say at this moment I find Spy scummy, the only thing that raised my eyebrow was his vote on Bujda, felt a tad OMGUSy but considering a big chunk of people are voting for him I supposed that can't be helped. I'm still surprised at Sigma's over reaction to his own vote.

[Sotty7]

actually, csl, could you link me to any games where you are lynched as town, too?

*coughalmostallofthemcough*

Sorry it had to be done! But, from memory...

Newbie 830, Newbie 824, Newbie 806, Rabbit Doubt Mafia (I don't remember the number), and Open...something. Sotty moderated the game though.

It was Open 167 and yes he was scum. I figured when rolf said he didn't want to policy lynch anyone in this game that he hadn't played with CSL before...

Mass posting falling on a weekend = me being behind from the get go. My gut has issues with ConfidAnon and I could switch to him but I will wait until I am fully caught up before doing that. Can't believe I am going to say this about a day old game but I need a re-read.

[Sotty7]

Vi, if Spyrex is still likely scum to you why have you left his wagon for the smaller Confid one?

Hip hop, what was your reason for jumping on the Spy wagon?

Having re-read and looked a little at the games Vi provided I'm starting to see what that is all about and I agree. Spy does seem more passive in this game, for example when he only placed a vote after Hoopla pushed him to.

Mae is also feeling town to me but her activity is though the roof which goes against the Maetown I know. Time will tell if that means anything.

Seeing interesting connections between crypto/Confid, especially here

The crypto/maemuki issue is bizarre, but I understand where crypto is coming from.

I believe crypto asked for elaboration and I'm going to second that.

Unvote, Vote: ConfidAnon

Something is really off here. His jump on the Spy wagon was weak (both scum and townies are defensive) and I really want to know who else he suspects and why.

[Sotty7]

Sotty7, who else is scum?

Right now I would say Sigma and Crypto. They are my strongest other reads at this point. Maybe CSL too, I can never figure him out.

[Sotty7]

I'm seeing my name in a lot of 'scum read' type posts but not very many actual points. Let me know if I'm missing anything and I'll address it.

Happy with my vote on ConfidAnon at the moment -- still getting a scummy vibe from him. I'm interested to see how he'll defend himself from this wagon.

Don't these two sentiments conflict? You ask people who have scum reads on you to post points against you, then you go on to say you have a scum read on Confid?

Vi post 349:
He is my number two at this point. His whole over reaction to his own vote is scummy to me in that he wanted a seemingly quick end to RVS. As scum I find myself pushing a some what quick end to RVS so I can get on with my fake scum hunting. I have also just completed a game on another board where the scum also made a similar ploy to what Sigma is doing. “Why is no one talking about my non random vote in the RVS stage[/pout]”

Also, seeing as I was so brutally slain I your game I have changed my avatar.

Infinis post 354
What about confid's 240 did you like?

What about crypto's case are the strongest parts to you? Any parts you disagree with with? Anything you want to add to the case?

Mae post 360
What makes you think he “completely dropped” the sigma case?

'For the things already brought up' is my trigger phrase.

vote: Energetic Penguin

. I'll go dig up more of his stuff in a bit but honestly I think he kind of makes the case against himself here. I doubt this will get a bandwagon going (early vote only as strong as it's justification and all that) but this is more of a meta-crusade to end 'for the things already brought up.'

Fair enough, I also hate “for things already brought up” reason too, but CSL also played this card earlier in the day here:

ConfidAnon seems like a good lynch target, so I'm going to

Vote: ConfidAnon

Why, or is it just to go with the flow?

Reasons already stated by other users

Comments/Questions/Complaints/Alerts of aliens?

AN ALIEN (named question) IS RIGHT ABOVE YOU!

Lol

Why did you not comment on this?

hip hop 421
Fair enough

Hoopla's post 442 does make me want to vote IK, what with the demonstration that IK isn't careful with his votes as he claimed to be.

It's noted that Vi has jumped on all the good going bandwagons so far. Far enough she started the Spy one pretty much but she has followed that up with a vote for Confid and now EP. That's a blip on my scumdar for sure, Vi is normally not one to just go with the flow like that. I was feeling Vitown but I am going to have to have another look here.

I'm interested in why Pops is scum to charter, it looks a little like OMGUS to me at this point.

Vote: Sigma

[Sotty7]

He is my number two at this point. His whole over reaction to his own vote is scummy to me in that he wanted a seemingly quick end to RVS. As scum I find myself pushing a some what quick end to RVS so I can get on with my fake scum hunting. I have also just completed a game on another board where the scum also made a similar ploy to what Sigma is doing. “Why is no one talking about my non random vote in the RVS stage[/pout]”

This feels like a 'too town' attack to me. You're correct that I was trying to end the RVS quickly. Ending the RVS quickly is good for town, in my book. Do you agree?

How is this a too townie attack? I have no issues with the RVS stage unless it goes on for an unnaturally long amount of time. Why is ending the RVS quickly good for the town?

I guess your attack on me is more of a 'trying too hard to be town' type thing, but I feel like it's based way too much on what others do as scum. Figure out if it makes sense based on the context of this game, not other games that I've never read or heard of.

No, I clearly said that trying to end the RVS early in my experience is a scum tell. Why are you forcing your beliefs that it is not one, onto me? I am not accusing you of trying to hard to be town, I am accusing you of being scum. Perhaps if you can better explain

why

ending RVS is so townie to you I might understand, but as of right now I don't like how you are trying to frame my attack.

Why are you voting me if I'm your number two candidate? Who's your number one and why aren't you voting for them?

Because he is dead. Confid was my number one, which is where my vote was when Vi asked. I was replying to the question as I read, I should have made that clearer.

[Sotty7]

In my opinion, the RVS is useless for finding scum other than the fact that it initiates the game, and I don't think it even does a good job of that sometimes. The quicker it ends, the earlier we have actual material (bandwagons, strategy, theory, etc.) to scumhunt with, and the more likely town is to win.

Okay I can understand this argument although I don't necessarily agree with it.

I've been anti-RVS as town and scum, so I don't think I score any townie points for being anti-RVS, necessarily. It could even be a minor scum tell.

What? You do it both as town and scum yet you consider it a scum tell on yourself... So, I'm right?

But is anti-RVS is such a strong scum-tell that it outweighs bandwagoning? active lurking? lack of scum-hunting? That's kind of a ridiculous statement, yet I haven't seen you bring up any other points against me.

lols. It would be a ridiculous statement if I said it. I didn't say anything along those lines however. This is your second misrep of my attack on you.

Despite that I'm thinking there must be additional factors in your case against me, Sotty, because it's frankly not credible otherwise.

Just because you say it isn't credible doesn't make it so. I would be the first person to put my hands up if I felt we where having a simply game theory disagreement surrounding the RVS but it has become a lot more than that. I put my vote on you and you have done nothing but try and reframe my attacks on you to make you look better AKA calling my initial post on you a too townie attack when it was anything but.

Now you claim I was right (“It could even be a minor scum tell”) while putting words in my mouth and generally trying to muscle me down from my opinions. It feels like you are annoyed that I haven't latched onto the easier cases hence your rant about active lurking and bandwagoning. It's pretty laughable actually and makes me think I am on the right track.

---

Spy, I'm not seeing the Bujda hate. Who are your other scum picks?

After sorting the thread to only display CSL's posts, I'm inclined to agree - he hasn't really done a thing yet. EP magnets my vote because of the magic words "for reasons already said" but CSL did something similar in 208 and so as of now I think I would be happy with a CSL wagon and would hop right on if I ever decide to stop voting ep.

Hito I think you missed my Post 480

I was starting to see crypto as townie with just how he was reacting to Elvis and her townie read arguments. While I do actually agree with where Elvis coming from, there is something about crypto's reaction that makes me feel slightly better about him. However, stating for a fact there is two scum teams pretty much wipes that away. Yeah Vi said it before, but that seemed more of a tongue in cheek thing that she does. As if she was goading responses. Crypto's statement was one of fact.

So, can we lynch crypto now?

Are you going to vote him?

[Sotty7]

You had stated one reason for voting me: 'anti-RVS is a scum tell.' You hadn't stated anything else. Since you were voting me at the time, either this scum-tell apparently outweighs the scumminess of the bandwagoners, active lurkers, and non scum-hunters (an argument that you just now called ridiculous, mind you, or at least you called it ridiculous when it comes to general scum-tells) or there was something else to the case that you were not mentioning. Does that make sense?

Yes my main reason for voting for you was the RVS thing but there were other factors adding into it as well. Your general reaction to your own vote and basically demanding people pay attention to it. So there was some added gut with the RVS being my foothold so to speak.

You have since implied that I value the RVS scum tell above bandwagoning, active lurking and non scum hunters something I never said. You are making that leap because you look at my vote and see it only for the RVS stand point. The way you called up these three other factors of scumminess just sits wrong with me. It's almost as if you are saying “Okay yeah, I might have done something a little scummy but it wasn't as scummy as

these

guys.”

Really since I have placed my vote on you I feel your reactions just make my vote look better and better. Calling my attacks on you tunneling while I am clearly looking at other players is just another falsehood you have posted in an effort to subtly discredit me. It's not going to work.

---

Elvis what do you think of Vi? Of Sigma? Who are your other scum reads?

That's because none of the people who are being voted are people I particularly want to lynch.
Why, exactally, does my behavior make me

more likely to be scum

(not intentional) and

more likely to be annoying

(entirely intentional)?

Like I said earlier, it just seems out of character, but then I don't think I have ever played a large game with you. Lets say you are the only one who has a say in todays lynch. Who is your pick and why? Picks two and three would be nice too.

[Sotty7]

Sheesh, every time I check this thread I seem to be at least five pages behind.

I think we've exhausted this argument.

I think you are right about this. Plus no one is paying attention to it so I am either way off base or your buddies don't want to bus you yet.

Well, how the hell am I supposed to defend myself? I've fucking had it. I'm out, yo.

Replacement Requested

RAGE

@Infinis what about Vi's wagon hopping is scummy to over say Hoopla's?

Anyone with a post count that has not reached it's 10th birthday: Yes you, I'm talking to you lurkers. *glare* Out of all of them (Penguin being aforementioned so he is excluded), hiphop and pads both rub me the wrong way, I don't really have much more than my amazing GUTS (scroll slower HP!) on those reads, but at some point be aware the lurker hunt will commence when the active players are thinned.

Are you serious? You just got done calling Vi scummy for basically spamming the thread and now you want to talk about a lurker hunt? This is technically my 10th post in this thread and I have posted every day twice a day since the game started. Explain how that is lurking. Then explain how that is scummy keeping Vi (and other “spammers”) in mind.

And that's what annoys me. There's always this nagging possibility that CSL was a moron, but a townie one. I just feel icky not giving another player a chance.

It's better if we don't have to find someone new, wait for them to catch up, make a post, argue with them. CSL was scummy enough to be lynched - the replacement gaff is just a nice little bonus. The only thing that sucks about the situation is not getting a claim, but I doubt CSL would have replaced out if he was something awesome like a vigilante.

I'm willing to compromise.

Unvote, vote: CSL

Pretty much this.

Unvote, Vote: CSL

Looks like I am late to the party so to speak, but if that was a hammer we still have 24hrs to change our minds I'm happy enough to add my vote to to really make sure CSL hangs.

[Sotty7]

@ Shotty's post 808: I understand your point mine was more of you seemingly wanting it both ways. Vi is scummy partly because of spamming then you turn towards the “lurkers”. Seemed like you were casting a wide net.

That said, I like your points on Vi in this post.

[Sotty7]

Apologies I have limited access on the weekends.

@Maemuki: Please do. I'd love to see an opinion you didn't steal from someone else.

Pretty much this. Mae, top scum picks and reasons please.

I am going to vote, who I think is the second buddy, hoping the day vig is unlimited.

vote scotty

imag doesn't have her name mentioned in iso 2, but he comes back later and starts calling her town, and saying that she is making really good points in iso 4,5, and 6. The only problem with this case is sotty doesn't mention imag. I'll let sotty tell us why.

There is probably a few people I didn't mention yesterday. Why? Because I was pushing others, imaginality didn't post that much so when I came though points against him were already brought up or I just didn't have anything to say. You only mentioned imaginality twice yesterday, one of those was a pretty pointless question, so yeah. Why didn't you talk about him more?

Vote: Elvis

I just felt like she wasn't fully here yesterday and I do agree with Vi that she was on the “easy targets” I am having a little issue here in that I am not fully sold on Vitown and also Elvis is voting for Sigma who is still someone very high on my list for scum. So yeah I am feeling torn.

Right now I am feeling Elvis, spy and sigma for scum, Vi is a potential. I'm not seeing the pads hate, I found him to be pretty insightful yesterday and the tone of his posts feels like how I would reason things. IK I haven't decided either way at this point, my experience with him is that he makes for an easy lynch so I am not going to be quick to join that wagon. Still I will have to take time to read though some iso's and see what I can dig up.

[Sotty7]

Vote: Mae

back where it was before the CSL incident.

Seriously? Nothing else to say?

It's not about simply holding the same scum reads. It's about twice in quick succession making multi-tiered lists, and

in addition

having those lists be similar. Scum are the ones who have their minds made up before the day starts, and to me the quick pair of lists strikes me as really scummy. I mean, I don't know about you, but I certainty can't neatly categorize who I want lynched and even if I could, I certainty wouldn't to continually re-post my thoughts in a nice bundle and give the scum a big old "HEY - PICK A TOWNIE FROM THIS LIST AND EARN MY MISLYNCH" sign.

Wait. Why are scum the only people to have made up their minds before day starts? Are you saying townies don't think the game over at night or something? I don't see how this is scummy.

I acknowledge that I'm not as confident in my position as before.

How come?

and i'm pretty sure redcoyote is not scum after his last post

I disagree, based on the information that I have just come off of a game (ended yesterday) where rc is scum. What I noticed what he did in both games is he said we really need to look at this, but not doing it himself. He did it in day one on the confid wagon. I for one don't think that is excusable. Since I really can't see any connections

both

ways, I will

unvote
vote RedCoyote

Can you elaborate on this some more please?

Vote: Sigma

With Elvis dealt with my vote is going back on the guy I find the most suspicious in Sigma. His latching onto the Vi wagon felt very forced and fake. I will elaborate on my vote some more later on (today hopefully.)

Mae, Scum reads please.

[Sotty7]

Hip hop I mentioned Elvis in other posts, here and here for example. Going back to your iso, I see you only mention elvis in two posts before her lynch becomes the forefront of discussion. Again one is a meaningless response. The other is weak fos on her while voting me for the exact same thing you are accusing me of here accept with imag in place of Elvis.

The attack was poor when you first tired it, it's even worse now you have abandoned that and instead tried to push EK on me. In both instances you are equally as guilty as I was in non mentioning of these people so why are you pushing me as scum for it? Also in doing a find all search in EK's iso she never mentions you, are you trying to confess something with these awful attacks?

You were building up something tangible against Sotty (who I think is suspiciously playing not up to her capacity), elvis is shot, and then you vote me? I don't understand where you're coming from, frankly.

This is funny. What exactly about hip hop's attack on me is tangible? And how am I not playing up to my capacity?

@ Vi/Sotty, I suspected Vi at first...but...now I'm not sure. She seems to scumhunt (or at least I'm willing to be confused by it for now), but I don't really know. I know I promised a reread - but as I said, I had some busy days.

One read doesn't cut it.

IK, what do you think about the Mae wagon?

More from Zakeri and Infinis too please.

Hip hop is looking bad to me now with those two awful attacks on me. Sigma's posting today so far feels somewhat townish and I can see myself jumping on the mae wagon, I agree with rofl and zak that there are mason vibes/connections there. Keeping my vote where it is for now however, I don't want to lazily jump without getting to my re-reads that I had to abandon yesterday.

[Sotty7]

Oh, and shotty not even noticing zakeri (largest lurker imo) when he's pointing out lurkers is noted.

This is a pretty damn good point. Zak came into the game yesterday and basically said he had nothing to add to the thread which I don't believe could even be possible considering the amount of posting in this game. He also has a total of three posts lacking in any real content. For Shotty not to notice this when he was talking about lurkers yesterday, pings my radar.

Can't say I am upset at the Mae lynch but I would like to add my voice to those asking her to leave reads on all the players in the game before she hangs tomorrow.

[Sotty7]

Vote: Hip hop

His attacks on me were really bad and with me being so wrong about Sigma I am happy to join Xyl for now with my good read. charter is a little bit harder. I didn't like his vote or early attack on Pops (I agree with Rolf that Pops is likely town) but he has been actively trying to hunt scum I think.

If we still have shots with our day vig I think infinis could be a good place to aim.

[Sotty7]

Vote: Hip hop

His attacks on me were really bad and with me being so wrong about Sigma I am happy to join Xyl for now with my good read.

I never did get this. Who cares if in your opinion my attacks are bad. Rc agrees with them, so that is basically him saying them. Are you saying that rc's attacks on you were bad also?

Yes I already called RC out for that crap yesterday. Your cases on me were actually better cases on you. You are scummy you get my vote.

charter is a little bit harder. I didn't like his vote or early attack on Pops but he has been actively trying to hunt scum

I think.

Key words, I think. Not "I know". Charter made, what you believe, one bad attack on pops, I made, what you believe, one bad attack on you. The difference is, I attacked you. In fact your whole case on me is OMGUS.

Actually no, the difference is that you made one horrible attack. I broke down how bad it was, you unvoted me. Then later you took the

same

attack subbed out Imag and put in Elvis. So the difference is you attacked me twice with really crappy reasoning. At first I thought it was an attempt to protect Sigma because the attacks were so awful. I was obviously wrong about that. I cut you some slack the first time, but for you to do it again made me realize it wasn't an honest mistake.

I am also pretty suspicious of Zak who has done absolutely nothing since replacing into the game. Shotty also called out the lurkers but “forgot” to mention him for some reason. I think that looks pretty bad.

[Sotty7]

I am also pretty suspicious of Zak who has done absolutely nothing since replacing into the game. Shotty also called out the lurkers but “forgot” to mention him for some reason. I think that looks pretty bad.

I don't. Technically zak doesn't have to post until monday. When Shotty did his lurker post, zak was still reading. Can't be a lurker when he replaced in and is trying to catch up, can he?

Are you confusing Zak with fhqw? Looking at Zak's three posts there is nothing there to suggest he was reading/following along/had read the game. fhqw on the other hand seemed to be actively reading and following a long making an effort to get content up but being overwhelmed. Zak on the other hand is clearly lurking and hard.

You asked me about the “for now” in my vote post too. Well I have been behind on this game and was hoping the night would last longer over the holiday weekend so I could take some time to read. Basically I am voting you for being the most suspicious to me right now before I get to ISO read/re-read the game. Right now my second is probably Zak, IK is up there, mostly for how he reacted to the CSL lynch, but like I said I need to read this game again. All my prominent reads are dead and I need new ones ASAP. I have more faith in my town reads at the moment, those being Pops and Rolf, with Xyl and spy pushing up there.

@Pads

, why is my Elvis vote suspicious? I thought she was scummy and I voted her it's really as simple as that. Unless you are accusing me of bussing, which the only thing I can say to that is I wasn't. But yeah, if you could elaborate on that please.

As far as Hito is concerned my experience with him is that he is a very careful townie, so that part of his play does fit right now. My only issue with him is how quickly he dropped the point that only scum make up their minds over night and then abandoned his Pads vote. TownHito would argue his point more strongly than that I would think.

[Sotty7]

I've only caught up from page 30, too. I'm going to have a long day regardless.

Sotty- I don't think you saw this in his second post. Considering it was page 35. Also with his most recent post, it looks like he is still trying to make sense of day one, which is imo still reading.

Eh, first point I could probably give you. He has posted, but he was lurking before that IMO, but yeah....

To the second point I have a question. Why not? As in why not place your vote on the scummiest person in a large game until you have a chance to review other players? It's not like you are going to be quick lynched

and

it gets my opinion on record. (As for the reads, they are coming. Yes I know pot/kettle/black but I am working on them)

I also want to point out the fact that if you (the town) keep lynching people based on the fact that "oh dude this guy is scum and hes dead and we should so totally lynch the people he said were scum cuz his buddys in there im sure of it" we're not really going to get anywhere.

What do you think we should do then? Who is scum? Why?

[Sotty7]

I suspect that he invested EP/fhq, elvis, or charter (post-conversion). During D3 he mentions several times that fhq is "very, very town", it was eerie how quick he was able to focus in on elvis during the beginning of D2, and he did a virtual 180 on charter after D1. I'm pretty sure he never invested Idiotking, Spyrex, me, or hito.

Having just ISOed rolf I can agree with this. Knowing he was the cop now makes it pretty clear that he investigated Elvis on night one. Night two is a little harder to figure out. I don't think he investigated either charter or Red though.

charter, if you're for real real and not for play play, shoot redcoyote tonight

unvote, vote: hiphop

If rolf had a guilty on charter why would his vig claim sway his mind and get him to unvote? I don't buy it. Also if he had a guilty/innocent on Red he wouldn't have voted him and then unvoted him in the middle of the day.

unvote, vote: redcoyote

unvote

turns out rc is indeed town, sorry about the mixup. charter had me going with his claim.

His posts inbetween were heavily pushing Red as scum and wanting to lynch him. I think it is pretty clear he didn't investigate either charter or Red at this point.

I think he got an innocent either on xyl or fhq.

now that charter is dead and confirmed scum, i'm willing to lynch hito based on this snippet alone:

Correct me if I'm wrong but rofl's case on charter kind of seems like a pretty similar argument to the one that was made against Mae.

but for the time being i'm sticking with my idiotking vote.

if xyl and/or rc want to switch to a hito wagon i'll jump.

zakeri, vote for someone

pops,

xyl is a pretty solid lock for town right now

having replaced e-pengin,

fhq is also very very town

, despite the fact that he really needs to be posting more

For me it is a toss up between xyl and fhq, but I am leaning more towards xyl being the choice because rolf seemed convinced that e-pen couldn't be scum after the imag flip so I don't think he would have wasted the investigation.

More to come after I make supper.

[Sotty7]

Eh. I can see your point Hip Hop, about the investigations at least. But I believe he chose to investigate Elvis on night one. Do you have any evidence to suggest he would have picked Red

over

her as a night one choice? Also, what previous behavior are you talking about specifically with regards to Red?

[Sotty7]

Sotty- what are you waiting for?

Also based on day 2- yes, it is conceivable that he targeted elvis, but I have to take into accout that he voted rc

after

charter claimed, and he unvoted rc charter

after

charter flipped. Why else would he do this? I asked him why twice, yet he never answered. Don't you think it is conceivable that he didn't answer me, because he didn't want to reveal his role.

As for rc- Why do you think I was voted for him day two and day three? Did I not express myself when I voted? He doesn't have many posts day one, look at his posts and decide for yourself. Based on rc's iso, what do you think?

Who said I was waiting for something?

Rolf could have voted and unvoted Red because he was his next suspect after charter and he believed the claim. Don't you think it is conceivable that Rolf just ignored you?

I have ISO'ed you Hip Hop and your points on Red seem to come out of nowhere. You make a lot of them while your vote is on me for example. I want to know why you think he is the SK, putting the burden of proof on me is a stretch.

Just give me the main points of your case that don't involve Rolf's hypoinvestigation.

I don't think RC was one of the investigations. Early in D3 roflcopter voted for RC as well as called for him to be vigged/NK'd. Only after the charter flip did he decide RC had to be town.

So... he had opposite results on RC and charter, and thought that RC was scum and charter was town. When charter came up scum he realized that he had them backwards.

Who do you think he investigated night one?

Been reading though the game and I think IK might actually be town. He had a spat with Elvis on day one when she said she wasn't impressed with his CSL vote. Then on day two he was the second vote on her next to Vi. The early vote and anylisis of the wagons makes him look town to me. I still think his whole CSL vote and replacement thing looks bad, but I think his good points out weigh that.

@IK:

What do you think of Hip Hop now? A lot of your early posts were about him, do you still find him suspicious?

Also ISO'ed Hip Hop and he reminds me of a friend of mine. Blunt, a little obnoxious at times but he does seem to be rolling his sleeves up trying to hunt the scum. Feels like a genuine effort. My sticking points are his bad cases and the fact he is now voting for Red despite believing that Rolf had an innocent on him. I think things will be a bit clearer once I ISO red as well.

With that done Zak and Hito are my top two suspects right now. I need to ISO both but Hito's vote for Ray felt like he was latching on anything that wasn't him at the time. Really need a closer look. Zak because he hasn't been getting involved really. That needs to change.

[Sotty7]

I don't think RC was one of the investigations. Early in D3 roflcopter voted for RC as well as called for him to be vigged/NK'd. Only after the charter flip did he decide RC had to be town.

So... he had opposite results on RC and charter, and thought that RC was scum and charter was town. When charter came up scum he realized that he had them backwards.

Who do you think he investigated night one?

I don't know. Right at the moment I'm just reading what other people are saying about possible breadcrumbs, rather than looking for them myself.

My point is that if Rolf did investigate Elvis on night one he would know what his sanity was for certain. The flip of charter wouldn't have effected his results at all. This is why I believe he had an innocent on night two and he was just going though his normal scum hunting motions otherwise. It is all guess work though, but that is my thought process at this point.

Vote: Zak

That is the fifth vote on him by my count. I still have to look over Hito which I should get today at some point. Probably a pads ISO too.

[Sotty7]

Fair enough.

[Sotty7]

The Hito kill has me confused. I thought he was scum, I'm thinking that was a vig shot seeing as there was a bunch of people that had him high up in their lists. I was one of them. He would have been somewhat of an easy lynch today. Or lynch attempt at least.

I had a look though Zak's posts to see if he left any hints but I didn't really see anything helpful. I really can't believe he didn't claim, he had plenty of time. Really pissed me off.

I feel like I want to lynch Red right now but eh... Need to think about it. The only other person I don't have much of town read on right now is Shotty.

[Sotty7]

It's his tone really. He says some things that don't feel like townie reactions to me. Like in his post today talking about Zak.

Zak, that was dick thing of you to do to your town.

Your town suggests to me that he stands apart from us there. He doesn't include himself, it's strange. It's the little things really and I am not confident on it at all. I am currently trying to read though the game which is some what hard with all the posts. Charter was breadcrumbing traitor really hard in his early day one posts where he had a little back and forth with Spy. The fact charter probably wasn't recruited till night two makes me think that Spy isn't scum because he would have picked up on that right away I would think. This is if we chose to believe charter when he claimed his two vig kills of course.

[Sotty7]

I'd give scumSpyrex more credit than to jump around excitedly in public when he finds breadcrumbs only he is looking for. I do lean pretty strongly towards Spyrex town right now, but that's no reason for me to accept reasoning that is shoddy, Sotty. Shotty to the body is someone else you mentioned, similar gutsy reasons to RC i presume?

The first part about shoddy reasoning I agree with Pops. And yeah, Shotty is on the list for similar reasons to Red. I seem to be having an easier time finding townies than scum at the moment and I am pretty much leaning town on everyone else.

Although I am a fan of 1760 analysis. I'm always up for Freudian slipsy stuff. I SWEAR I caught scum on the second page of my first game because I caught him projecting his emotions onto another person.

Freudian slip stuff can be a tight rope to walk, but that line really strikes me as off from Red no matter how many times I read it. I am not treating it like a scum confession or anything, it's just another thing for me to feel uneasy about.

[Sotty7]

Hip hop, what do you think of the other people who were on Elvis wagon? Do you think there is no chance of scum in there?

I'm trying to figure out which one of them is the scum. I'm pretty damn confident that one of those will flip scum. I'm positive that both wont.

Why so positive that they both won't flip scum?

Things I notice:

∙ Sotty is on only one of these wagons. (Zak)
∙ Pads is on only one of these wagons. (CSL)
∙ I am on all of them. (oh shi-)
∙ I have to think that there was at least one more scum on the Mae lynch. Meaning that, from my perspective, either Spyrex or pops is scum. (Finally some analysis!)

This isn't really analysis Red because you don't give any reasoning for any of these things you notice. Why is it important to note that both Pads and myself were only on one wagon? (I did ad a vote on the CSL after imaginality, but yeah he had reached majority by then) Why do you think more than one scum is on the Mae lynch? Numbers and probability are one thing, but did you go back and look at Spy and Pop's hop on to the wagon? I just feel like you are throwing these things out with nothing really to back it up.

[Sotty7]

Sotty, shotty, and rc- Why are you not voting for someone? If you haven't decided yet (unlikely) who would you vote for? What do you want from the town, to help you make up your mind?

I have been flip flopping between Red and Shotty. IK is probably a 3rd person I would vote for but I will probably need my arm twisted a little there. I have a gut town feeling with how he and Elvis went at it.

Red's post 1811 seems okay on the face of things, not really liking his scum to town read that he posted after though. Ignoring where I am positioned I am just having a hard time seeing PopsScum. Red, is Shotty on that list where he is simply because you believe IK to be scum and he is willing to vote him?

With all that said, Pads case on shotty is pretty solid so I will

Vote: Shotty

[Sotty7]

You haven't grown out of Scum Disagree with Town yet RC? townPops has a town read on Spyrex that's ages old, and knows he's town, so has more than enough reason to show that the your stoney, absolute Spyrex or Pops ultimatum is wrong.

This is the final time I'm going to say this before I pop you pops: It's not a false dilemma because I am not saying one of you

must

be scum and the other

must

be town. I'm saying that it's pretty darn likely one of you are, but that doesn't necessarily say anything about the other

I am going to have to agree with Red here Pops. I don't think there has been anywhere today where Red has said it's one or the other with you and Spy. Spy

has

been saying that about Hip Hop and IK however.

Spy are you sticking with that feeling?

Red I am not sure what else you want to hear from me. You haven't actually asked me any questions that I can see. I am starting to think you might be town however most due to your positioning of fhq on your town list. It looks like you believe rolf investigated him when you could argue or a least subtly try and hint towards it being you. I didn't like your early day posts but you you have settled down and seem to be posting things I can agree with or at least see you POV.

Shotty your PBPA is pretty awful and twisted. If you have actual questions feel free to ask them. Also lol at the set up speculation. Near on everyone in the game is guilty of that.

[Sotty7]

I don't recall her really calling someone out with force,

Sigma.

nor do I particularly remember her saying someone who was getting heavy pressure was town.

Idiot King.

Well, I wasn't going to go much longer before a vote: Sotty7, but I'm done with school and shopping. I think I'll have enough time to check the thread at least a dozen more times before the deadline.

Try again? (AKA, what's the case?)

[Sotty7]

You think I am scum but have no questions for me? How does that even work?

Red yeah you are cherry picking. I was all over Sigma day one and was wrong, it happens. I also stuck my neck out for IK and would only lynch him if we needed to come to a lynch. I also think Hip Hop is probably town.

This is really bad reaching from the pair of you.

[Sotty7]

Pops if you are not jumping out of your skin to lynch me why does the rest of your post look like you positioning yourself to jump on my wagon unless I provide you with a case of epic proportions?

It goes like this.

RedCoyote

I keep flipping on him. The start of today was really bad, he seemed to be spreading scumminess every where and seemed a bit panicked. Lately I have been seeing where he is coming from. I think his case on me is really weak and he could easily be scum. He has been saying I am scummy for several days and yet hasn't really done anything about it until today when Shotty gets some decent pressure. Looking like there is a link there.

Currently read =

my second scum suspect but there is room for town Red

SpyreX

Don't like the Hip Hop vote. Think that is him looking in the wrong place. That said I have mentioned how I think he is town because of charter and his obvious traitor breadcrumbs. ScumSpy would have seen that sooner and charter would have been scum sooner.

Current read =

Town.

hiphop

Focusing too much on the set up but is making actual efforts to hunt the scum. I didn't like his case against me which is very similar to his case on Red. Still after I read him I don't think he makes sense as scum.

Current read =

Over excited townie that the scum are probably storing up for end game.

popsofctown

I liked a lot of Pops at the start of the game. His tangle with charter was good and was some heads up scum hunting IMO. Today he seems to be more about survival than scum hunting. When Red brought him up as scum he seemed to attack that notion a little too hard considering hardly anyone really feels that way. Also his over reaction to Red's Spy/Pops thing was weird.

Current read =

Jumpy town

Shotty to the Body

Hasn't really done anything which is pretty funny considering his case on me. Wasn't on the Elvis wagon choosing to vote for Sigma at that time instead. Was lurking pretty hard today. He doesn't explain why anything in his ISO of me is actually scummy and has no questions for me. He didn't seem to find me scummy until today and really he isn't going to make a case on Red the only other player who seems to think he is town.

Current read =

Scumz

fhqwhgads

Town simply because I think rolf investigated him. Also he hasn't done much in the way of scummy actions IMO.

Current read =

Town.

Pads

Pads thinks a lot like me. I think he is town simply because of this fact, we use a lot of the same logic on people especially his reasoning for rolf investigating fhq

Current read =

Town.

So yeah, I have more town reads than scum so I am in process of elimination mode. Still I think Shotty is probably the mason partner to Elvis and is just scrambling for one more mislynch.

[Sotty7]

I think we're at one, maybe two scum left. I doubt

very

much that Shotty is the vig.

[Sotty7]

How many votes am I at now? Three?

Red, no one asked me to claim the last time I was in the thread so saying I haven't addressed the issue is pretty false. It wasn't an issue in the first place and I don't think I have been the wagon leader or at least at lynch -1.

Seeing as the deadline is very soon I will say I'm just a townie. So the lynch on me isn't bad it won't lose the town a PR anyway. The vote hopping so close to the deadline is pretty eye opening. I still think we should be lynching shotty personally but hey.

[Sotty7]

Spy has been pushing a shotty/pads lynch all game and yet when there is an actual wagon for shotty and a chance to lynch him he votes me for nothing. That's the main part of all this that is surprising to me.