Mafia 105 - Caught in the Crossfire (Game Over)

[RedCoyote]

I think we need to make the Mod follow rule V(1) too.

I'm kidding, the game should be very interesting.

/confirm

[RedCoyote]

Will probably be on vote: crypto this weekend.

[RedCoyote]

sigma: I'm refusing to random vote.
sigma, 5 hours later: Wow, isn't anyone going to pay attention to me?

I'm sorry. If I

unvote

and

vote: sigma

do you think you can forgive me for not jumping on your post?

Do you think that Vi was actually concerned about your vote in post 69? Did Vi's insight greatly influence, like, your reason for speaking out about your vote? You brought up that you were a little quick to pull the trigger, but, just to rephrase the question, what exactly did you expect the town to do or say, especially in such a short period of time?

I'm a little disappointed that my non-random vote hasn't gotten any feedback yet.

The key words being disappointed and yet, in my opinion. "Disappointed" implies that you wanted to catch some attention for it, and that you are not impressed with crypto, Sotty, pops, hito, Pads, rofl, Mae, me, Infinis, and CSL for ignoring your vote. "Yet" implies that you are expecting feedback from players not named hiphop. Is at least this much accurate?

[RedCoyote]

>

join game with no posting over 500 words

>

make 40 250 word posts instead

>trollface.jpg

[RedCoyote]

500 words

(Just want to make sure I keep my post under 500 words. )

sigma, 87/budja, 89: I've been thinking it over, and I don't see anything particularly valid about sigma calling attention to himself as scum, but I do accept Spyrex's more poignant criticism of sigma's in that I think he gave contradictory reasons for responding so early.

Hoopla, 91: You didn't seem to kick the tires much, are you comforable with the wagon?

Hoopla, 136: I agree. Happy Birthday, btw. My birthday wishes should mean more when they eat at my word count.

Hiphop, 138: You vote CSL for a stated reason (lurking), but then unvote him and vote Spyrex without one? Inconsistent?

Budja, 146: I do agree that Spyrex seem uncharacteristically preoccupied with himself, and I like this post in general.

CSL, 171 & 173: Why the hostility? Why not just respond to Mae's valid criticism. You essentially ignored everything else happening in the game aside from someone who brought up your name. Additionally, you seem dodgy. Mae asks you specifically about Spyrex, and you say that you don't support early wagons. To analogize: I ask if you like apples, you answer that eating fruit for breakfast isn't good.

Vi, 204: If it looks like I am focusing on CSL, it's only because of things like this that Vi picked up on. Almost immediately after this post CSL throws momentum behind the ConfidAnon bandwagon out of nowhere.

rofl, 232: Then let's pick one and be done with it, yeah?

CSL, 241: Do townies make posts like these?

crypto, 248:
>Refer to 6 different players, explain your reads on 5 of them
>Vote the one you don't talk about at all
>Go back and forth in an exchange with that player while essentially refusing to explain your vote
>Call them scum that you don't want to lynch yet, but you have no problem with keeping your vote on them
>Get extremely hostile against people who, coincidentally, are all suspicious of you
>Finally get around to posting your reasons in an unsummarized post that tries to show nearly every Mae post in isolation as scummy

[RedCoyote]

There are too many players to do an accurate Scumscale, so I'm just going to touch on a few in no particular order (nothing significant about 4, just worked out that way).

Top 4 scum

:
crypto - Being secretive and angry does not necessarily make one town. Your back and forth with Mae was unwarranted and unnecessary, as was you calling out everyone who coincidentally suspected you.
hiphop - Inconsistent voting pattern.
sigma - Having trouble finding your motivation in this game, but I haven't seen it as genuine so far.
CSL - Meta or no meta, I don't care for your play. You post too often, you're too dodgy, and your blantant attempts at calling attention toward others when you get mentioned is unreadable at best, scummy at worst.

Top 4 town

:
Spyrex - I like your playstyle in general, so there's a slight bias there. Although I think the meta argument has some merit, I don't rely too much on meta. I also think your wagon was populated too quickly.
Hoopla - Your most recent posts tell me you are show independent qualities, and I like your post 163.
Budja - I like your observations; I like post 146.
Maemuki - Despite posting much too frequently, seemingly everytime I noticed something fishy, sure enough, Mae had a post not long afterwards calling it out.

Top 4 who are at risk of falling behind

:
Idiotking
Psychologic
Energetic Penguin
imaginality

Biggest misconception as scum

: ConfidAnon - I don't really see it. Maybe he's been a bit too self-aware, but the size of his wagon seems unwarranted.

Biggest misconception as town

: CSL - "CSL has a scummy meta, so leave him alone" Whatever meta CSL has is besides the point, and he would make a good D1 lynch from where I stand.

In reality, that took longer than it looks. Seriously, let's try to cut back on the back and forth posting. I personally think it cuts against the spirit of the < 500 words rule. When we start to lose players, it probably won't be as big of a deal, but there is no reason to make more than 3 posts in one sitting (Mae, CSL, crypto, Vi, RF, etc.)

Both of my posts together come to ~750, but until/unless the Mod has something to say about muliple posting (e.g. X words a day), I feel obliged to "make up" for lost time.

tl;dr: Everyone

unvote

and

vote: CSL

.

[RedCoyote]

Vi, 342: The Mod is always right, and I won't bring up the issue again other than to say I don't often have the time to make multiple posts a day.

sigma, 347: You gave two seemingly different explanations for the same action. You don't seem genuine to me at this early stage of the game.

hito, 353: This sounds like an excuse not to get your hands dirty. elvis was good to call you out, and even in this post, your response to her attack, you still didn't vote anyone. You say you can't justify a vote on anyone, I call that bs.

rofl, 364: Too many people are voting Confid because it's the hip thing to do.

CSL, 365: So you have the time to agree with rofl over lining up lynches but you don't have the time to give any opinions on the game?

RF, 399: I don't disagree, but I don't see the point. I'm not trying to gloat, but what was wrong with Confid's post 387? The case against him was blown out of proportion, and I think a good question for the whole game is which one of:

sigma - CSL - roflcopter - elvis_knits - Pads - Vi - Sotty7 - Energetic Penguin - charter

is scum? Are there any scum here? Why or why not? Which were bandwagonning without valid reason? Which were driving the lynch? Which were riding? Which were influencing others to it? Which were trying to be influenced away from it?

crypto, 407: I rode Idiotking pretty hard in a previous game. As a townie in that game he openly did a lot of power role talking and didn't see much issue with it. Because of this, I'm less inclined to push him here. I do not, however, want to come off hypocritical. I know some are defending CSL on the basis of meta, so I'm not trying to do the same here. I don't support an Idiotking lynch at this point, but I won't oppose it.

Spyrex, 413: What do you mean you disagree with sigma as scum?

Hoopla, 414: I'm fine with this, but I don't think anything was solved with that shot unless we analyze the Confid wagon against who would fit a scum paradigm. Wouldn't you agree?

hiphop, 421: I noticed that too (the V/LA thing), and as of now I'm a little less interested in you and more interested in talking about the Confid wagon.

[RedCoyote]

although I agree that analyzing ConfidAnon wagon would be a good thing, I don't like you laying out the groundwork for this analysis and not putting a foot forth in any direction at all.

How do you figure? I'm impatiently waiting people to subscribe to my "CSL is the best D1 lynch we could ask for" theme. I've made it in no way unclear that sigma holds a welcome place amongst my scum predictions for the time being. crypto is not far behind, although I'm liking his latest, more collected exchanges.

In addition to all of that, I am not as skeptical of the EP wagon as I was to the Confid wagon, although, for the life of me, I have no idea why EP is more of vote magnet then half the other people on the Confid wagon.

I give you props for at least giving my idea the time of day though, pops.

---

The lucky winner of a shiny new vote:

Vote: EnergeticPenguin

But you didn't refer to EP at all in your long-anticipated opening game post, imaginality. Do you expect us to take your reasons for granted?

Vi and Mae seem to point out similar issues with this post's over-broadness as well.

---

And I don't see how it's so scummy that I didn't vote for someone in my response post. After all, if I had a reason for not voting up to that point, that's hardly going to change just because e_k pointed it out!

This is a fair point; I didn't look at it that way. Regardless, I'm still not buying you're "playstyle" argument as to your lack of a vote. Players have used this argument against Idiotking, and I hope they intend to use it against you as well.

Day 1 in a game with 25 players, and you're preaching caution when using your vote? I just don't understand that philosophy, even on a principled level.

---

Gut reads can't really be defended against logically, while citing something as a scum-tell can. I'm seeing a fair amount of 'gut reads' against me (see RCs 'you don't feel genuine' comments) and not much in the way of actual scum-tells.

I don't mean to keep bringing this up, but I keep getting the impression that you are glossing over the real issue.

So, was it "wagon because I don't know" or "lol, reactions"?

both, really. reactions get the game going, and wagon because I don't know is a decent strategy, IMO.

Maybe you can justify this, but I cannot. It seems awkward, contrived, excusatory... whatever adjective you want to use. It doesn't sound townie.

[RedCoyote]

everyone, we're lynching infinis today. quit screwing around and start voting him.

unvote, vote Infinis

Why is Infinis a better player to vote than crypto?

unvote, vote: infinis

Why is Infinis a better player to vote than Idiotking?

Unvote. Vote: Infinis.

Why is Infinis a better player to vote than elvis?

---

Now just where in the heck did Infinis come from? Out of thin air? Why did Infinis (Infinis!) cause this level of unity among three players that were just arguing with each other for the past 3 pages? This game is moving a mile a minute for some of you, and this is the same mistake that was made with Confid.

Speaking of Confid, you know, the

townie that was shot earlier

, the wagon on him is a very solid piece of information to go off of for a D1 lynch. Infinis seems almost arbitrary in comparison. I'm serious; what's the major differences between Infinis, Budja, EP, Pads, imaginality, Sotty, et cetera? I'm willing to look back over Infinis, but I can tell you right now nothing he's said as of now has shaken me, or the general playerbase, up.

We have more information today than most do during D1, let's not squander it in favor of joining a quick wagon. At least Idiotking and EP had, like, a specific thing to point toward. Infinis doesn't seem to have even that.

Confid wagon before his death

sigma - CSL - roflcopter - elvis_knits - Pads - Vi - Sotty7 - Energetic Penguin - charter

Discuss this, everyone. What does this mean to you? Sotty and sigma were both on the wagon, now Sotty is voting sigma. EP is a popular target, and his vote on Confid has something to do with some of that. Is this why Vi is voting him now? elvis and charter are not seeing eye to eye. pops left this wagon right before Confid was shot. When was the last substansial post CSL made? Is there scum in this group? Was Confid scummy enough to lure 10 townies to his wagon?

[RedCoyote]

sigma, 490: It makes some sense. I just dont understand why you felt the need to rub it in the game's face (I don't mean this negatively, just as a point of fact). You were aiming for reactions, yet, you told people you were looking for reactions, which seems to defeat the purpose. It's almost like you were saying, "Look at me, look how townie I am".

crypto, 541: Do you think this kind of two sentence post is necessary? Is it valuable to the town? I could choose a great many of your posts, but after scrolling through your name numerous times already (with 14 pages still to go) I thought I'd go ahead and ask you this. What are your intentions when making posts like these? I could ask this same question of pops, RF, Vi, charter... Look at page 23 and tell me what is valuable about it. Six players posted on page 23, four of them posted

two times or less

.

rofl, 617: You can fos me all you want, but calling me an obstructionist is just wrong. You propose we lynch [insert name here] because you've drawn him out of a hat as far as I'm concerned. I've seen nothing particularly positive or negative about his play, or I would've noticed as such. If there was something specific, I'd have imagined you would have brought it to our attention. I've shown why CSL is anti-town, and that's why I've wanted to vote him. In addition, he is connected to the only piece of hard fact we have to work with right now: Confid's wagon.

RF, 618 & charter, 642: You've both been severely downgraded for these meaningless posts, just for future reference. RF moreso than charter, but it's almost not worth wasting my space for talking about it. What makes you think these posts are valuable at all? RF's is completely nothing, posting to see his name in the thread again, and charter's meaningless scum predictions are so fickle that he feels the need to make a new one every few hours.

Vi, 620: I doubt I'm going to respond much faster, but explain, "Add on what roflcopter said". Do you mean you agree with post 617? Infinis is our best lynch and anyone speaking against it is obstructing the game, and thus scummy?

crypto, 643: This post I like... except for the fact that your post 588 contradicts it.

hito, 685: It may be too bias of me to say I like this post. :3

imaginality, 691: This post strikes me as a little useless without a vote or anything really edgy. I mean, I don't expect you to be different for the sake of it, but it seems like every opinion you have is fairly accepted (e.g. "hoopla might be town", "IGMEO Ik", "crypto isn't definitely town", "EP is a good vote", "RC is likely town"). These are all things with no real meat to them. I finally agree with rofl this game for calling you out on this post.

pops, 698: Solid post.

CSL, 730: Policy lynch for "You vote me. You suck. I'm out."

Spyrex, 752: Can you stop being useless? Are you just waiting for D1 to be over with? I think I'll tell my scumbuddies to keep you alive a little longer.

Hoopla, 778: You can put my name in any color you wish, hon. I won't, can't, and refuse to post like charter the several times a day. I keep up with this game well enough, but I definitely do not see the need to make a post every few minutes. Go read page 23. I appreciate you calling out crypto and Vi for their post wars, but I don't think the "red group" are necessarily bad.

SttB, 788: Good opening post. EC is long overdue for a post similar to this. I don't need to see his opinions on individual posts in a game like this, he just needs to get in with the current events.

Idiotking, 794: It took me a while, but I finally realized why you were pushing that "wait for a CSL replacement" line. If CSL flips town, you want it to make you look good. I'll remember this for later, my friend.

elvis, 807 & EP 813: Y'all get some props for catching this, too.

CSL, 832: PROTIP: Most of the time everyone is town. Scum are the minority, remember? Quit whining.

Spyrex, 850: There are going to be scum on this wagon regardless, don't you think?

[RedCoyote]

elvis, 903: I like this post, but I'm really worried about elvis' position as town at the moment. rofl drew some good conclusions between imaginality and elvis, and it's hard for me to unsee them.

Vi, 905: I see one interesting little pattern in this:

Energetic Penguin (606, 678) - hitogoroshi,

popsofctown, hiphop,

imaginality

, Vi

[...]

popsofctown

, roflcopter, Infinis, charter,

hiphop

, Idiotking,

Hoopla

,

imaginality

, Vi

(emphasis added).

That's the only thing that catches my attention immediately. Elvis does make a point that neither Pads nor sigma seem, meta-wise, particularly quick to the trigger. It sticks out that both of these players were on the Confid and CSL wagons.

---

Shit. I knew I'd feel bad about not giving a replacement a shot. Oh well... what's done is done.

Something tells me you think you're being clever here.

vote: Idiotking

I'm not going to fight an elvis wagon, but I think this is a better pick at this point.

---

rofl, 918: I absolutely love this post. I actually think imaginality was kind of giving Idiotking a "tongue lashing" as a means of blending in. It's important that he didn't vote Idiotking because I think he was more interested in pushing the EP wagon, while looking like he was keeping his eye on Idiotking/Mae.

naming elvis as scum all the sudden (but again keeping e-penguin at the forefront for no apparent reason) reeks of distancing. reeks of it

Agreed. charter, as well, should be worried that imaginality threw his name in there. Based primarily off of imaginality's posts, I think elvis, Idiotking, Pads, and charter are losing more and more town points, while EP is gaining some.

i would say that at least two of elvis, mae and idiotking are scum.

I would say you are right, and I would say, at this point, I am content lynching all three of these players. And charter. And Pads. ...and possibly sigma.

---

Did anyone else notice this? There is no indication that there is two mafias. It makes me think there is only one. Possibly a sk and vig (yes, it says in the rules there can be two vigs) or two sks.

Good point. hiphop, where does it "say in the rules" that there can be two Vigs? Could you point that out?

[RedCoyote]

While I still don't understand the case on Pads

Someone else brought this up earlier, and my problem with Pads isn't the same as hito's problem. I think I agree with elvis in the sense that Pads doesn't give off the vibe of someone who hops (heh) from wagon to wagon. It's peculiar that he would wind up both on Confid and CSL yesterday. I don't have much outside of that, but that's why he's lower on my scumlist than elvis or Idiotking.

RedCoyote is still scum. [/redundant]

Vi is still overextending. [/obvious]

I don't think you have anything on me to justify your fake tags other than meta-this and meta-that.

Saying that he's not scum because known scum was fifth on his wagon is somewhat unsatisfying, although with your megapost I can get an idea of where you're coming from.

And saying he

is

scum on the back of a lurker label is? There's validity to the fact that he comes up at opportune times, but he is by no means as easy to peg as you are making it out to be.

I don't feel equipped to analyze or argue the nuances of imaginality x puppy/E-Pengy

Then you should probably make that a priority, you know, considering he's dead scum.

It might prove more valuable than jumping in fourteen different directions with every new post.

---

if i can't have an elvis lynch today, i'll take a vi lynch

Why? Don't you think imaginality's ties are more considerable than Vi's blithering?

---

I'm confused by the sudden Vi hate and why Vi left the wagon.

I'm confused why you can't say anything valuable. '

---

Not buying the case against Vi.

Because charter is more likely scum than not.

---

Hito is the best

after

elvis (imo), and I think it'd be better to leave elvis for the dayvig to deal, y'know?

Ugh...

[RedCoyote]

I was intending to make a long post, but I don't really see the necessity. The only thing I wanted to touch on was that hiphop's vote is no different from Vi's earlier one, and that I am suspicious of the sudden drop in activity in Mae and pops.

I don't know what Mae is doing, but with the holiday around the corner, she sure isn't putting too much stock in defending herself. Other than Xyl's earlier post, I'm hardpressed to see any sort of defense for Mae. How rofl is really wrong here? The elvis connection was solid, and couple that with the decrease in activity, the lame exchange with Vi earlier, and the general uneasy vibe I got from her D1, I don't see any reason not to

unvote

.

Idiotking is more and more moving into my undecided column. elvis was kind of pushing him late D1, but he seems pretty calm and collected. In a sense, Idiotking is a good example of how to go into D2, how to handle an imaginality scumflip, and Mae is, well, opposite of that.

Let's

vote: Maemuki

.

[RedCoyote]

@rc- What is wrong if my case looks like vi's( not saying it is) If I believe you are scum, because of the way you act and some of your actions are scummy, than yes I will put my vote where it belongs. (Still need to post it. I don't think I have room in this post)

It's pure, unadulterated meta. I challenged Vi and got nothing, so I challenge you just the same. It's almost not even worth mentioning your vote, and I don't think I even would have but for the complete opposite direction you're heading. You were building up something tangible against Sotty (who I think is suspiciously playing not up to her capacity), elvis is shot, and then you vote me? I don't understand where you're coming from, frankly.

[RedCoyote]

How does this contrast

Well, I'm not voting her for one. Two, I'm not sure if she would be in my top three scumbags.

---

And, if I don't post much this week and the next (assuming I live that much), I'm studying. You have been warned.

It's not at all logical that your play changes from one day to the next because two mafia died, right?

---

Xyl, 1077: Yes.

---

I'm inclined to believe Vi on the fact that you're scum. But my reasons are not meta.

Yeah, and then you stopped. It's funny because it was almost, like, right after I made that post that you just completely fell out of the aggressive, leading role you had. If I had the time I'd do a better comparison to your posting ratio at the beginning of D1 to the entire rest of the game, but suffice to say that it's very heavy on the first 12 pages and then very scarce through the rest.

When you set a certain precedent, and then later in the game, after some town and scumflips, you can't live up to it, it makes me uneasy. I pointed out the same thing with pops, but I think he's gotten back into gear.

---

his is funny. What exactly about hip hop's attack on me is tangible? And how am I not playing up to my capacity?

I don't know what's funny about it. You've taken a backseat role, which is fine (I don't argue to exactly be at the forefront of the game myself), except for the fact that I expected you to have a more pressing role in the game. That's not why I have you leaning more toward scum though, that's just peaks my suspicious sense.

imag doesn't have her name mentioned in iso 2, but he comes back later and starts calling her town, and saying that she is making really good points in iso 4,5, and 6.

imaginality mentioned you in three different posts, and one devoted solely to you and how townie you appear. Do you think that's noteworthy?

---

pops 1132 & Spyrex 1134: Budja has been replaced you goons.

sigma, 1138: You can put on the matching boots, holster the six-shooter, and shine the belt buckle too, but ain't nothing going to to hide the fact that that was a lame post.

fhq, 1175: Hey, fhq! I agree with Vi, don't bother complaining about the post speed. I'd just say take your time reading over, make a few notes, and give us the play-by-play in the morning. We're stringing up Maescum today and we may all miss your insights.

[RedCoyote]

Hold on.

charter, I'm assuming you're not a dayvig then? Did you shoot anyone last night? You already claimed, you should give us everything you can.

[RedCoyote]

I'm currently not sure why rofl has decided to abandon his good strategy of reading back over the thread for connections, as it proved very successful in linking imaginality to elvis. Maybe hiphop wants me lynched to feel as though he's accomplished something in this game? He's been kind of so-so for me all game, but I'm not prepared to push for either of their lynches. Additionally, of everyone who I have had early scum predictions on, 3 of them have came up town, with hiphop being the fourth.

---

elvis' posts 78 & 295, in addition to sigma's last couple of posts had me really convinced he was scum. Everyone elvis called out in 295 has came up town, so I feel like we must continue to press on with her. She had to have mentioned her partner at some point.

elvis on hito, 345
elvis on Idiotking, 807

Gut reads:

Town

charter, hito, Infinis, Pads, Red, SpyreX,

elvis

Shifting from Scum to Town

hiphop,

Vi

, pops

Neutral

Everyone not mentioned

Shifting from town to scum

crypto

, Ray,

sigma

Scum

Penguin,

CSL

,

Maemuki

, IdiotKing

conclusions

elvis is scum. lynch her now please.
mae is very likely scum.
idiotking is very likely scum.
spyrex is still in the might be scum category.

---

elvis talked almost exclusively of crypto during D1. You can literally read through her in isolation, as I did, and find that she didn't talk in depth about a great many people. Going with the same strategy that connected imaginality to her, I'd say our two best bets at this point are hito or Idiotking.

The case against hito is coupled with imaginality calling him town in post 456. It's likely that at least one more in that town list is scum, given how many town have flipped in the rest of the list. hito was one of the few other people that elvis even mentioned. The case against Idiotking is based more on the fact that elvis was hard up to lynch Idiotking at the end of D1, perhaps as a distancing tactic. This case is couple with the fact that Idiotking attempted to separate himself as much as he could from the CSL lynch here, here, and here. rofl was right to conclude that Idiotking should be on our short list of high suspects in post 918, a post with which I agreed.

Neither player has been particularly active, and I've come out on separate occasions at one point or another with positive things to say about both of them. hito has been playing very cautiously, which can been seen as a good or a bad thing. Every post he makes it seems as though he is walking on eggshells, trying not to cause too much of a fuss but trying to make sure he has a post every couple of days. Idiotking has been largely absent for the past few pages, which strikes me as odd. In conclusion, I think we need to stick to the strategy that has actually gotten us somewhere in this game.

vote: Idiotking

[RedCoyote]

Does that mean you think hito and Idiotking are guaranteed town?

[RedCoyote]

It's my experience that scum tend to mention their partners at some point, so I don't buy the idea that we should just stop looking at people elvis mentioned as possible suspects because of townflips.

[RedCoyote]

Ok, my catch up is up to crap.

Your filler posts are crap, too.

---

i sincerely hope redcoyote will accept my helping him lynch idiotking as an apology for trying to lynch him just now

There's no apology necessary, although I'm still not sure what I did to get you to switch in either direction.

---

Couple other notes. SpyreX goes on the back burner until hito flips. Hiphop hurt himself a lot yesterday, but there's a tinge of new player in the air. Going to re-read him before I cast a yea/nay to his wagon.

I assume we're all back from 'caught in the crossfire' land and we all accept that we have but one mafia. I said previously that Idiotking was likely scum if we had just one mafia, I need to look at that again, too.

I essentially agree with everything here, and your case against hito is much more in depth than anything I said (likely because you focused on analysis rather than the connections).

---

Now, since I played nice nice, care explaining to me why Pads is soo town with that elaborate me-too post and the weird I'm back burner now statement?

Well, the back burner statement is true. Let's just be real here, you were still banking on a Budja lynch a week after the guy replaced out. As far as calling it an elaborate "me too" post, well, that's a tough sell too because, one, Pads history is in sync with calling hito scum (this post is actually somewhat prescient if you ask me), and two, I'd like to think it's a good plan to put a little pressure on the shadowy figure known as hitogoroshi.

If one wanted to get all :smug: about it I called CSL as a town lynch, wanted E_k dead, and found the case on Mae to be junk until they opted to give up.

...and I think I recall you giving Vi a thumbs up as well. Not that any of us outside of charter, I think, seriously considered a scumVi theory. Anyways, that's fair, but if you really think you have a good pulse on the game, what are the odds that hiphop is going to flip scum?

---

But the only useful alternative to that (I say useful because while I've kind of ended up shoving my vote up my ass this game it's not my intention) is to follow a bandwagon, and I simply don't like the extreme turnover of wagons in this game. Part of it is the vig craziness that in essences creates half-day wagons. You only really have a day to consider whether or not you want to vote with a wagon, and then they're either lynched, vigged, or left in the dust for a new conquest.

There's a lot of truth to all of this. I mean, your attitude is kind of what I was trying to convey in post 1279. You've got this slick quality to your posts. It's funny that Pads got the Bill Clinton comparison going, because that's a total fit. I feel like you are slapping me on the back with your response saying, "RC, you're doing good. I've made some unintentional mistakes, and haven't we all? Okay, now it's time to get down to business."

Only I'm in a perpetual wait for you to say something concrete, something business related. Maybe it's just me, maybe it's because I don't recall having ever seen some sort of list post from you (e.g. X is scum and Y is town). I can point to Xyl, Spyrex, and rofl, tell you where they currently stand, and could certainly go back and find out where they stood earlier. Obviously these are more extreme examples, and I don't expect you to mimic someone's playstyle in order to appease me. What do you do in other games though? Has anyone else ever accused you of flying under the radar? Haven't we had this conversation before?

[RedCoyote]

Whoops, I made an oversight. I misunderstood the "back burner" comment to mean something else. Spyrex is right; that comment was a little strange.

[RedCoyote]

rc- your case on idk seems more of bussing is the new scumtell of the month. Several people are guilty of attacking scum in this game. Why is Idiotking different?

Just to make sure we're both on the same page, bussing would mean that both me and Idiotking were scum together.

Idiotking is different because elvis came down against him late D1. This could mean one of two things: either she saw an opportunity to look townie by calling out Idiotking for his distancing himself from the CSL lynch, or she saw an opportunity to distance herself from her partner by starting a late day wagon that wouldn't go anywhere. Additionally, she was actually right to come down on him, I think. Idiotking made it fairly blantant that he was against the CSL lynch (despite the fact he still voted for him), to the point where he said, in three separate posts, that he regretted voting for CSL when he knew better than to do so. It doesn't sound sincere to me.

That being said, I thought he handled himself well enough D2 to earn some townie credit back. Still, now that were in D3, he's no where to be found. If Idiotking was townie, I don't think he would be afraid of posting.

---

Yes I'm throwing a tantrum.

I just don't see it. Pads is guilty of an exaggeration here, I won't deny you that, but short of his questionable stove-top I don't know what else I can stick him with. I think post 1314 is about as close as we're going to get to Pads backing down from the statement. I totally hear your point when you ask us to look at how right you have been on the flips so far, and I actually

want

to give you credit for it by supporting one of your wagons. I just don't think Pads can be that person. Even hiphop I'd really have to hold my nose to vote at this point.

I don't know how you can seem so townie to everyone (including me), yet your reads are so contrary to everyone else.

---

Anyway, [Idiotking] was afraid to lynch a townie and he's scum? Come on people

I'm serious. He wants to have his cake and eat it too. He wanted the townCSL lynch, but he also wanted to complain about it to make it look like he was forced on the wagon. In my opinion, no one forces anyone on a D1 wagon in a large game. Moreover, if you

are

going to complain that the growing wagon looks wrong

while

you're sitting on it, you

aren't

going to take three separate occasions to whine about how bamboozled you were into joining the wagon. I'm sorry; you are not being sincere if you do all of this.

If hito is more your style, then I think I can be convinced on that, but until Idiotking is willing to start making decent posts (at least hito has tried to defend himself, although I am less than enthusastic about his consistent lack of scum reads on anyone), then I think he's got something to hide.

I agree with you that Pads and Spyrex sound like two townies in a shoving match.

---

Dear everyone,

If your vote is not for Idiotking or hito, then give me something real to mull over (more than just kitchen metaphors). Otherwise read over both of these players (neither player has posted too much this game) and get back to me.

Yours Truly,
RedCoyote

[RedCoyote]

RC is looking that way too. Not for OMGUS, but more because his case against me sucks.

Well, when you reduce it to the CSL quotes, yeah, that's not very impressive.

• But your rolefishing,
  

  Hiphop is active lurking. I can't decide if that's scummy enough to warrant a vote, though; it's possible that he's got a perfectly towny reason to lay low, though I don't know exactly what it could be.

  appeals to emotion,
  

  See, it's a funny catch-22. If I take responsibility, I'm doomed. If I don't take responsibility, I'm equally doomed. So if I'm to be doomed no matter what I do

  vote attractiveness,
  
  • Hoopla & sigma were both pretty hot for an Idiotking lynch before CSL's name rose to the top.
  connections to scum,
  

  Shifting from town to scum

  
  
  

  crypto

  , Ray,

  sigma

  ,

  Hoopla

  
  
  

  Scum

  
  
  Penguin,

  CSL

  ,

  Maemuki

  , IdiotKing

  I dislike idiotking very much. One reason is how he doesn't want to look at the confid wagon. The other big thing is I think that the plurality voting thing allows scum to push lynches without voting... or get lynches without voting the lynch candidate. We should be watching for players who don't want to vote or who push lynches while voting others.

  and disappearence from the game D3,
  
  are more substantial then you give them credit for.

Fortunately, having played with you before, I know not to get too excited about these prospects. Additionally, I'm not going to write-off the fact that I think you handled yourself well during D2, and are now stepping up and giving us a firm, creditable offense. I don't think it's too late to do so.

---

anyone who's voting Idiotking right now, shouldn't be.

Well, Idiotking is just playing opportunistic, so don't lose your head, Xyl. RF and Idiotking got into a similar spat much earlier in this game, before you replaced in. I'm more interested in why Idiotking wasn't playing an offense like this earlier in this day... with other people.

---

I don't think I would be opposed to an RF lynch. I made a request that the town give something real to go on outside of hito/Idiotking, and I think Idiotking stepped up nicely to remind us of RF. Admittedly though, RF doesn't sound much different than he sounded earlier in the game. Then again, we have this:

Shifting from town to scum

crypto

, Ray,

sigma

Sandwiching a buddy between two town? I've seen much less logical things.

As I'm rereading over RF's posts, I'm just as unimpressed as I was the first time I read through them. Contrary to Spyrex, I think I still see lots of scum in this game. The little interaction I've had with RF has been uninspiring, but I think any scum premonitions I had were drowned out by others (I say others because I truly don't recall who were saying it at the time) calling RF a useless townie.

Let me

unvote

and ask the

Mod

how long we have until the deadline.

[RedCoyote]

Earlier you didn't say that my 'rolefishing' was a scumtell for me. As for the AtE, I don't see that as an appeal to emotion at all. As I said, it's more of a realization that I can't argue on that point and it mean anything. And then I proceeded to not argue on it. I also don't see the connections you claim to be there, and vote attractiveness does not make me suspicious, actions do. And as for my disappearance on D3, it's nearing finals. I had 3 term papers to finish. And I am most certainly now here.

Personally I don't see it as a scumtell, having played with you before. That's why I didn't bring it up earlier. When it gets to the point that you're calling me out for voting you, then I am going to defend why it is you are worthy of a lynch.

If you don't see post 1343 as an appeal to emotion, one among multiple you've made this game, then you're being stubborn. You're essentially saying, "Woe is me, no matter what I do I am doomed to this cursed fate of a lynch! *slits wrists* You want I should strangle myself for you?!" You actually said that last sentence! That isn't an exaggeration! Give me a break, Idiotking. It doesn't

get

anymore emotional than your self-pitiful defeatism. I pictured a teenage girl crying that their mother was grounding them on prom night or something, "You want me to hang myself for you, Mom?!?! You're ruining my life!! ;_;"

The connections are that the only people still alive that elvis talked about are you and hito. imaginality puts you in a tiered list with a bunch of other confirmed townies. Odds are, there is a scum in that tier.

Vote attractiveness, I would contend, gives the town security in their perceptions of you as scum. It is comforting to know that confirmed townies crypto and Hoopla were just as concerned with you as we are.

I wasn't aware of your school commitments, it would've been nice to hear about you having to delay mafia for a few days (if you made this post, quote it and I will concede the point).

---

rc- do quotes like these sound more of scum talking with their buddy or scum talking with someone else.

I don't know, hiphop. I honestly wouldn't be surprised. Nothing about these posts you mentioned strikes me as something scumpartners absolutely would not banter about. Frankly, their exchanges could easily be thrown in to make it look like they weren't fond of one another. It's pretty WIFOMy, but the fact of the matter is elvis specifically brought Idiotking up, which is more than I can say for any other living player (sans hito).

Why is it I am the only one reading the rules?

Because you're cool.

---

Idiotking has sparked my curiousity in RF once more, I plan on waiting for him to give us something with more substance tomorrow. Hopefully some offense, defense, reads, analysis of previous pages, and, if we're lucky, some new theories to play with.

[RedCoyote]

There

might

be some value in leaving RayFrost alive and continuing to debate, but we no longer have that option. Right now, with 24h to get a lynch, RayFrost is by far the best candidate. I know there's a possibility of benefit from leaving him alive but it's nowhere near the downside of rushing a lynch on someone else in 24h.

Thank you a million times for being the only one with a little common sense. Shame on Spyrex and pops for trying to take it upon themselves to assign the lynch with 24 hours to go!

---

You already know my alignment and who I've killed, making my flip moot.

As such, lynching me provides no new information whatsoever.

Xyl, you pushing for the lynch of a town-directed daykill or two is really coming across as scummy.

This reeks of slime. You have no pro-town agenda, and you are trying to set our agenda. No, we

don't

know your alignment or who you've killed. There is likely an SK in this game, there is no evidence you are it other than that's what you're claiming.

---

This is all assuming that Ray is in fact the SK and not scum. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case, since the real SK (if there is one) wouldn't be able to counterclaim.

Then get your vote back on!

---

waste this lynch on the SK

Ugh...

Vote: RayFrost

, heck,

confirm vote

that son-of-a-gun, and I've never been more sure of a vote as town on MS.

[RedCoyote]

I just wrote a few notes on a post-it note as I looked over the game; I don't have any posts to quote. The great thing about rofl being the killed and flipping Cop is he is so very clear and concise in almost every post. It goes without saying that all players should go back and at least read over rofl for D2 and D3.

I suspect that he invested EP/fhq, elvis, or charter (post-conversion). During D3 he mentions several times that fhq is "very, very town", it was eerie how quick he was able to focus in on elvis during the beginning of D2, and he did a virtual 180 on charter after D1. I'm pretty sure he never invested Idiotking, Spyrex, me, or hito.

With this flip, I'm really going to give fhq some town credit.

Somewhat like pops, I'm going to be gone. I'm only going to miss tomorrow though, I need to finish up one paper and I have one more test to do. I should make my next post sometime Tuesday.

[RedCoyote]

Buddying up with the 'confirmed' townie?

---

Been reading though the game and I think IK might actually be town.

This is good to know, but I'm more interested in who you think might actually be scum.

---

I have no idea, to be honest.

I think we're going to go round and round until one of us dies, Idiotking. This will forever be our destiny.

Seriously, I would've preferred a more firm answer at this stage in the game, regardless of how torn you are. You mentioned three different times in this post how unsure you are. It's fine to admit to being stumped, especially if you actually are (I think we all are, to an extent), but it seems odd to push the issue. Do let us know what you find on hito though.

---

And I didn't realize exactly HOW much Zakeri was lurking. For reference here is all of the content Zakeri ever posted.

In my defense, the word limit is huge.

In my defense, I'm going to

vote: Zak

.

Why are you ignoring the most pressing issue surrounding your play?

---

At least we can agree on that if Zak gets lynched versus shot anyone claiming vig dies? Deal? Deal.

The only problem I have with this is that I can't explain the happenings of this game so far without a Vigilante.

Idiotking seems to think it may have been a one time thing, maybe that's the case, but I feel more comfortable assigning a Vig to that kill at this point.

---

I didn't think it was possible that charter was killed by a vig, but it is the only thing plausible. Unless rc is a sk that hasn't killed yet, I would have to say that rc is 100% (not 99) cleared as scum, because there is no way that rc is the godfather(innocent by the cop) of the mafia. He has zero connections with the scum flips, that I can see.

I think I can agree with this.

Seriously though, I think charter was almost certainly killed by a Vig (assuming RF was being truthful).

1) We have a dead backup Vig.
2) An SK has been killed (I find it hard to believe there are two SKs, a backup Vig, and a mafia team).
3) It makes sense to me that a player who claimed Vig (and wasn't) would be shot by the "real" Vig.
4) While it's common for a Vig to have a daykill, I think it's less likely for the SK/mafia to have them.

What this all means is that I am willing to bet there is a Vig still, because I wouldn't know of any other role that would've logically been able to shoot (or would even want to shoot) charter.

Additionally, hiphop, some of your posts earlier today have given me a good feeling about you. Not so much the part about wanting to lynch me mind you, but the theory you created around the reason for rofl's sudden changes of heart made a lot of sense.

---

My point is that if Rolf did investigate Elvis on night one he would know what his sanity was for certain. The flip of charter wouldn't have effected his results at all.

Hm, I never considered this.

I think this supports my original prediction that elvis and fhq were both likely investigations.

---

Granted, we don't know the setup, and anything from a back up vig to a lower number of starting scum (to balance out the large number of kills) will give us a little more breathing room but right now, I'd say that I'm going to let the dream of a policy lynch go.

The rest of your post here is pretty logical, and it sounds like you have good reasons to back up your theories. It's just

this

part that I am finding it hard to go for. I don't usually begrudge people for trying to outguess the Mod, but this is really pushing the envelope. With kills going left and right, almost as if we were caught in a crossfire, I do not suggest we sell our lynch out on a limb like this.

[RedCoyote]

1. Where? I see a dead traitor vig...

Ah, sorry, I mixed up backup Cop and backup Vig.

4. We've already seen the SK role pm and it does have a day-kill.

Yeah... kinda.

You may kill once per day/night cycle.

I don't know, that's a little strange. I still think charter being shot by an SK during the day doesn't quite add-up. Do you think charter shot Infinis or RF did?

---

Why is it that no matter how much I quote the rules, that people still insist that there

must

be this role because that is how it normally is?

Explain what you mean here. How did charter die?

---

I hate how everyone just went silent :<

Well, it would've been nice to play a game where Zak that cared about winning. It's hard to buy that the silence upsets you when you've failed to jump into the game after several weeks. Xyl, fhq, and Shotty were all replacements as well, and they've all done fairly well to get involved in this game. There's just really no excuse for not only the lurking, but for the refusal to put forth an effort after the wagon starts. You, Pads, or anyone else can sit here and say, "Wow, this wagon moved quick, and no one is saying anything!" all day, but the fact of the matter is, even if you are town Zak: what are we losing? The very few posts you have made are almost all in agreement with someone else's point of view. Post 1742 was fine, but it was too little too late.

No, I don't have anything to say. I think it sucks we have to waste our lynch on you, because your flip is a complete tossup. You could be lurking scum, or you could be indifferent town. Maybe if you took the time to play the game we could've worked it out together.

I don't mean to be cruel, but I am frustrated with you. You asking why everyone is silent is totally a pot/kettle thing.

[RedCoyote]

Zak, that was dick thing of you to do to your town. Really, there was no reason for that. A lot of information could have been had from your flip, increasing our chances at winning this game.

A deadline right before Christmas, how cool it worked out that way.

Initial reactions are surprise at the hito flip, not so much with the Xyl flip. My to-do list includes reading over both of their suspects (already I know this is another mark against Idiotking), and going back once more to our mafia flips, especially that one imaginality post.

[RedCoyote]

I would have to say that rc is 100% (not 99) cleared as scum

Who does that leave us? RC.

there is no way that rc is the godfather

RC. Got to be the godfather.

[RC] has zero connections with the scum flips, that I can see.

[RC] has some rather strange connections.
Charter's only mention of rc found in post 1039 Calls him town. (day 2, may or may not have joined yet)

In imaginality's post 456 He is town along with ek and charter(definitely not recruited yet, but it is possible he could have known already)

And Elvis, well... Only statement directed at rc is not to post twice to get around, what was once then, the 500 word limit.

I don't think you're being sincere any longer, hiphop. What do you say to that?

[RedCoyote]

I seem to be having an easier time finding townies than scum at the moment and I am pretty much leaning town on everyone else.

I'm actually still on the other side of this fence. I would be very content with your lynch, frankly, as well as Idiotking, and now possibly hiphop. I think Pads' case against SttB is no joke either. To be perfectly honest, fhq is really the only player I feel comfortable with. I think a case could be made against just about everyone else.

Your town suggests to me that he stands apart from us there. He doesn't include himself, it's strange. It's the little things really and I am not confident on it at all.

Apart from the fact that the word your is simply a possesive modifier used as an adjective in this case (in other words, grammatically speaking, my belonging or not belonging to said town isn't established either way), why would you think I would be so transparent? WIFOM or not, I have to say, as scum, I really don't think of myself as a separate entity when I am making posts. I don't think most players do either.

---

SttB is implying that he holds one or more of the following beliefs

The problem I have with this is we're all kind of assuming hito was shot by a town-sided role. I mean, that sounds more logical, sure, but possibly Shotty had it the other way around? Whatever the case may be, I'm glad it got you moving on someone, Pads.

---

Godfather is one of the roles listed in the roles section, so don't tell me that most mods don't use them, because it is evident that this one does.

You've been harassing a lot of us for not reading the Mod's rules enough, but here you are trying to outguess the Mod forcing a Godfather into the game. Your logic, as I take it, is that I have to be scum, but I also had to have had an innocent report on me; therefore, RC = Godfather.

And no, you can't write off your complete 180 degree flip with "you mixed up me and idiotking". Admit you are making it up as you go along. You said I was 100 percent confirmed, those are

your

words. I mean, I appreciate the fact that, if you are town, you are going back and rethinking your ideas, but you don't just say the someone is 100 percent confirmed town and then take it back a few pages later. Either you have no conviction in your words, or you flatout lied. You need to man up to one or the other, and I think you may have missed the opportunity. By my read, the townie thing to have done was to say you had misspoken in either 1680 or 1776, because you can't sit them both side by side and say that you changed your mind.

I don't know though, as crazy as it sounds, it's still difficult for me to justify lynching you. My gut is saying it's not right, even though this is the same gut that said hito, CSL, Mae, and Zak were all good lynches. Speaking of which...

---

CSL

( 13 ) - RedCoyote -

sigma

- Pads -

crypto

- popsofctown -

roflcopter

-

Infinis

- shotty to the body -

charter

- hiphop - idiotking -

hoopla

-

imaginality

Maemuki

( 10 ) -

Infinis

-

Vi

-

roflcopter

-

charter

-

Zakeri

- RedCoyote -

sigma

-

Xylthixlm

- SpyreX - popsofctown

RayFrost

( 7 ) -

Xylthixlm

-

roflcopter

- Shotty to the Body - RedCoyote - idiotking - fhqwhgads - SpyreX

Zakeri

( 7 ) - SpyreX -

Xylthixlm

- idiotking - Shotty to the Body - Sotty7 - RedCoyote - hiphop

(Note: I think these are all the final vote counts (remember some people unvoted RF), if someone can prove otherwise please speak up)

Things I notice:

∙ Sotty is on only one of these wagons. (Zak)
∙ Pads is on only one of these wagons. (CSL)
∙ I am on all of them. (oh shi-)
∙ I have to think that there was at least one more scum on the Mae lynch. Meaning that, from my perspective, either Spyrex or pops is scum. (Finally some analysis!)

[RedCoyote]

Tell me I'm wrong, pops. Tell me everyone who voted Mae, except for charter, was town.

[RedCoyote]

This isn't really analysis Red because you don't give any reasoning for any of these things you notice. Why is it important to note that both Pads and myself were only on one wagon?

I know, I just meant the last point. I don't know if it's important at all, it just caught my attention. I'm not prepared to use it for or against you, and I guess it doesn't help anyone else either.

Why do you think more than one scum is on the Mae lynch? Numbers and probability are one thing, but did you go back and look at Spy and Pop's hop on to the wagon?

Numbers and probability are solid, logical pieces of information. The more people come up town in a certain group (Mae's lynch), the less likely the remaining players are going to be town. Like pops says, it's possible that scum was able to push an essentially all-town wagon, but that doesn't seem reasonable to me. I think it's a good lead.

---

I really think we saw a full load blow on CSL via scum and the answer still lies there.

It's harder to go off that though, I think. You and Sotty weren't on that wagon, but everyone else left was. It doesn't really cut the number we have to work with down.

---

You're doing the same thing. It's not pure, milky probability like most gambler's fallacy cases, but you are making the same mistake. You look at the town flips, and then assume since on average every wagon has some scum, there needs to be more on the wagon.

I think it's a fair assumption. It's not reasonable to take a somewhat random group of 10 out of 19 (slightly bigger than half, what was the amount during the end of D2) and say that there's bound to be scum on there? What's more, since the mafia knows Mae isn't part of their group, it's a "safe" lynch for them.

---

For those of you that haven't seen my wiki lately, I have updated it, with the completion of my first scum game on this site. My scum game is found here. Lynched the first day. First time I have ever been the first one lynched.

Isn't there a scumtell surrounding this? Like, pushing your meta or something? I just think it's scummy to slip something in like, "Oh, btw, this is how I act as scum, so you do the math."

It's WIFOMy, isn't it hiphop?

Additionally, I do not agree with your assumption that just because Idiotking, Sotty, and Pads were on the elvis wagon necessarily means they are not her mafia mason partner. The wagon only reached 6 people before she was shot, well below the 11 needed for a majority.

---

Anyways, I think it's time to lay it on the line and go back to scumhunting 101. Based on this and this, let's

vote: Idiotking

.

One more thing that leads me more toward Idiotking are the two following quotes:

vote: hitogoroshi

Looks to me like [hito] is trying to push a tactic away from him (small though it may be), even though that tactic has caught more scum than townies. It certaintly looks like he doesn't want to get caught.

fos hito

Other living players, SttB, Sotty, Spyrex, and pops are all kind of lukewarm toward both Idiotking and hito at this point in the game. SttB breaks the mold somewhat by voting Idiotking with me, but he still hints at the possibility of rereading hito.

Anyways, my point with all this is that the second I brought out my theory on hito or Idiotking being the D3 lynch, Pads and hiphop almost immediately felt the need to shift it more toward hito, who has since flipped town. All I'm saying is, should either Pads or hiphop be Idiotking's partner, they may have wanted to push the town along the lines of a hito lynch rather than an Idiotking one.

This is a big, big stretch, but at least it is tying some of the living players together.

[RedCoyote]

Simulpost with hiphop, but there isn't really anything I need to say to him at this point. He's got his blinders on, and he seems very convinced that his way is the only way that makes sense. I personally think he's gone off the deep end with his Godfather theory, and I wish he would consider other possibilities. I don't know, I'm hoping he'll eventually write it off as another "untrue lie" or whatever. All that said, I just cannot find scumhiphop. I haven't been able to this whole game really.

[

Town

]---fhq-------hiphop---Pads-SttB-Spyrex[

∙

]--pops---Sotty---Idiotking-------[

Scum

]

[RedCoyote]

Do you really think that the scum mason would bus their buddy so early when they have the advantage, as in daytalk?

Yeah, I guess I don't mind the WIFOM so much. Do I think there could be an early bus? Sure. No one knew she was going to be shot, and if the elvis bus would have went all the way to a majority, maybe it would've been better to be one of the wagon leaders. Maybe they were planning to stop the bus if it reached a certain point. It's very up in the air, you know, I'm not saying there necessarily was a bus, just that it's a possibility.

Do you think it's a little hypocritical of you to argue about the likeliest/unlikeliest of situations like these, given the fact your case goes against more reasonable expectations?

If you think there is scum on this wagon, why don't you exploit it, instead you put it out there and see if somebody else will get their hands dirty.

Right now I'm not sure. I'm thinking it's a pretty safe bet, but one cannot go through a game without taking into account the people around him. First of all, I'd have to be convinced, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I agree with my proposal. Spyrex put it simply but accurately: the major issue is that Spyrex and pops seem town. These two ideas are fighting against each other. Secondly, even assuming I saw both pops and Spyrex terribly scummy, I'd still have to argue that case strong enough to garner support. I don't think a pops or Spyrex lynch could happen today. It's not impossible, but I don't think anyone has either of these players at the top of their list. Third, Idiotking has been under my watchful eye since the end of D1. Even if my original proposal about the Mae wagon is right, I feel strongly that Idiotking is likely to be scum.

---

Ignoring where I am positioned I am just having a hard time seeing PopsScum.

Aside from the Mae argument I just brought up, both pops and Spyrex were a little too brash during the end of D3. I think both of them attempted to try to spin the chaos surrounding RF's claim for their own agenda. You can go back to these pages and look over them trying to play like little power brokers.

I'd really be pro shotty, pads, fhqhqhhedas getting some bullets for this, ps.

I like shotty particularly off your list Spyrex.

vote: Shotty

My inquiry earlier didn't get much.

I will be more than glad to push a shotty lynch IF, and I swear to god I mean this, that it means that if he's scum Pads goes the way of the dodo tomorrow.

Sure, as long as you explain how they are connected and whatnot.

Xylithm, you would trade in 2 daykills for a few weeks deadline extension? Because that's all the reversal of tomorrow's lynch and today's is. A few weeks deliberation versus two daykills. Yes, we have to kill him eventually. But making a snap decision on who to lynch here gives us two daykills.

That last one especially, 1521, takes the cake.

A minor detail that I've still got bouncing around in my head is him forgetting Budja's replacement earlier. Again, both him and Spyrex were guilty of it, but it just rubbed me a certain way.

I think I could go back and do something a little more formal. Like I said to you earlier, I think a reasonable case could be made against most of the people left. I don't think anyone in particular stands out as obviously town, fhq only gets high townie marks from me on account of possible Cop investigations.

Red, is Shotty on that list where he is simply because you believe IK to be scum and he is willing to vote him?

No, certainly not. Pads writes off SttB's handling of hiphop at the start of D4, but I thought he sounded town. He replaced in pretty good. I think Pads blows any SttB buddying to me out of proportion, because I can recall at least a couple instances of him correcting something I've said with skepticism. Left apart, I think SttB seems pretty town, but isolation does make him seem weaker. Do you think it's hypocritical of me to consider them both town? I would draw a reference point to Pads' case on hito, which also looked pretty good at the time.

[RedCoyote]

You just posted a scale and put me close to scum. "seem" by default means that an objective observation draws that conclusion, so the omission of "to the rest of the town" makes me eyebrow raise here. Don't build your dump truck RC, you've been shady and speculative all day.

I mean generally. Granted, I should've been a little more clear about that. You can use this against me if you want by saying I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth, but it's actually what I meant. You

seem

town, in the general sense. It's accepted within this group, I think, and is has been for this entire game, that pops seems town. You haven't laid low or anything, it has just worked out that way I suppose.

Personally I don't think you are town at the moment, and if I had to pick right now I would put you in the scum category. I am not sure about that, and given your weak scum position on my scale, I am trying to indicate that I am certainly not convinced you are scum. Indeed, you

seem

town, I think I want you to be town, but I'm not convinced either way.

Spyrex/pops is a FALSE DILEMMA and you really need to cut the crap.

You can keep pushing this all day, but this is different than just flipping coins, and it's different than a false dilemma. In mafia, wagons are not traditionally led exclusively by townies. I mean, I don't know how I can even really argue this, I thought it was pretty much accepted as common knowledge that major wagons usually have a scum presence, espcially if they're aimed toward someone that isn't on their team. Assuming either you or Spyrex are mafia, neither of you would have known that Mae was going to be lynched. Indeed, for the scum, a wagon that size would've been very inticing, because that's one more day that they aren't lynching one of their team, and one more day that they may lynch someone of importance. To say that it's a fallacy that the scum would have absolutely no motivation to be on that wagon, that it's just as reasonable that the wagon was straight town (again, sans charter), is, I don't know, naive? It's wrong, that's for sure, but how are you wrong? Are you wrong because you are genuinely worried I will propose to lynch you primarily on this basis? Are you being super logical, genuinely fighting me on what you think is a mental slip on my part? Are you scum trying to stand your ground in a weak fallacy argument to defend yourself and/or Spyrex? We'll see.

---

But RedCoyote would be a better lynch as he seems to be squirming in his chair

At the risk of proving your point by asking, why do you say that? I don't think I'm doing anything much different then I had during D1 or D3 when I had a little pressure on me. Both of those times I had multiple votes on me too.

I don't think I am being "squirmish" or nervous about anything, and I think I've been pretty blunt as to why I think hiphop's theories are rubbish. I don't particularly feel threatened by them, but I do think it's appropriate to address them.

---

How can a godfather in a game be unreasonable? If you guys don't expect one, you may just give scum the win.

Let me make one more argument to try and get you to see the stubbornness of your side. Another possible role on the Mod's list is a Lyncher, and going with your Godfather argument, a Lyncher is just as likely as a Godfather. You aren't expecting a Lyncher, so why can't someone make the argument that Spyrex is a Lyncher and Pads is his target? It would be just as valid as the argument you are making now, you can point to posts where Spyrex has attempted to get Pads lynched. The Mod says it is a possible role, so why not? Why is it a bad case? Do you see where we are coming from when I put it that way?

When someone is flaking do this:

mod prod Shotty

Speaking of prods, could we also get a little

fhq prod

?

[RedCoyote]

Idiotking the Vanilla Townie has been killed

Dammit Vig, now I'm officially freaking lost in this game.

Happy scumday, Idiotking! It looks like you caught your present in the crossfire. RIP.

---

You haven't grown out of Scum Disagree with Town yet RC? townPops has a town read on Spyrex that's ages old, and knows he's town, so has more than enough reason to show that the your stoney, absolute Spyrex or Pops ultimatum is wrong.

This is the final time I'm going to say this before I pop you pops: It's not a false dilemma because I am not saying one of you

must

be scum and the other

must

be town. I'm saying that it's pretty darn likely one of you are, but that doesn't necessarily say anything about the other.

On an semi-related note, I want to hear from fhq for sure, and I'd also like to hear from Sotty again. Idiotking as townie slightly helps pops I think, but it brings my townhiphop read down some.

Potential lynches: Sotty, pops, Spyrex
We can probably do better than: hiphop, SttB
Hands off: Pads, fhq

[RedCoyote]

Pads and hiphop seem fairly confident in their positions, so I am suggesting that the SttB wagon is a fairly tightly-knit bloc. Sotty only mentioned me and Idiotking as possible switches for her. I know at one point Spyrex was comfortable with an SttB lynch, and I don't think either him or pops are comfortable with my lynch. I think the SttB wagon would ultimately end up with Spyrex, pops, Sotty, and Pads, assuming fhq is not interested. It's tough to see the opening for an alternative lynch to SttB (I honestly do not feel as though I am it; I don't see my wagon going above hiphop and Sotty).

Assuming me, SttB, and fhq were able to get all on the same page, which is a big assumption in and of itself, we're still not going to be able to even tie the SttB wagon, let alone overturn it. SttB's hopes are looking pretty grim if everything I'm saying here is accurate. Especially now after Idiotking's flip, I'm going to be very conservative about who's wagon I will really argue against. I will not lay myself in front of an SttB lynch for sure, although I would be willing to bet he's town.

Unlike previous days, I think Spyrex/pops finally have some sway in the town's decision here. I don't think they could pull off an fhq or Pads lynch, but I think they could get just about anyone else.

[RedCoyote]

That's all good, but scum would also know if this was the case. If it was town only driven, this would be the perfect argument for scum to make.

May I rewrite translate this for the rest of the game?

"That's all good, but WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM."

Yes, of course I could be scum making this argument to appeal to townies (and you gotta admit it is not exactly turning heads), but, well, I'm not.

I'm curious; I know why you exclude me, but why Pads again?

I feel fairly comfortable that he is town. He seems sincere enough, you know, and despite being wrong on hito I thought he and I saw him exactly the same way. He's a little lurky, but he keeps tabs on the game. Like you were saying though, this is my iffy read, too.

---

Sotty has been a low-presence player throughout the game.

To say the least. More than anyone here, I think, Sotty has been very careful not to give up too much of what is going on in her head. Like you said though, that specifically isn't what makes her suspicious, but I don't recall her having much presence in any of the votes. I don't recall her really calling someone out with force, nor do I particularly remember her saying someone who was getting heavy pressure was town. I just, I can't really point to anything in the game and say it defines her place in the game. Spyrex? He's anti-Pads and has been the contrarian most of the game. Pads? Took hard stands against hito, SttB, and CSL (towards the end of the wagon). fhq? Him and Idiotking really went at it, replaced a player who had been taken very close to a lynch on D1 (who I happened to think held up well under the pressure). hiphop? Godfather case. I could go on, my point is Sotty's game so far has been asking a few soft questions without following up.

---

the difference between a lyncher and a godfather is the godfather could give the scum the win, because the town can't see it in the game, while from what I understand from wiki, a lyncher has no effect on whether I win or not, but we are not dealing with an ordinary mod.

Well, then it kind of becomes a theoretical argument. Sure, technically here at MS, as far as I know, if the third party like a Lyncher or a Jester satisfies their win condition, the game keeps going. These roles are still anti-town in the sense they are not sided with the town. The purpose of the roles, in my opinion, is the win

before

town or scum do, and if they happen to do that, then I don't really feel like the town or scum wins the game. They get, like, second place, but I consider Lynchers to be on the same level as Cults or SKs. If neither the town or the scum thwarts them, then the town or scum win is somewhat tainted.

Anyways, that is a big theoretical argument that we don't necessarily have to get into. I think you are pretty stuck in your theory, so I think I'll just have to show you I am town by acting pro-town.

WHY ARE YOU NOT VOTING WHEN WE ONLY HAVE TWO DAYS AND LESS THAN SEVEN HOURS LEFT?

Well, I wasn't going to go much longer before a

vote: Sotty7

, but I'm done with school and shopping. I think I'll have enough time to check the thread at least a dozen more times before the deadline.

Shotty please claim now, or at least soon

I read this as, "SttB needs to claim because if I have to break the tie I am going to unvote RC and vote him".

I do agree that SttB needs to seriously consider claiming soon. Maybe he can wait to hear from Spyrex again, but if I were him I would have it ready to go.

---

RC, you're acting like a dog that has realized it just tested out as purebred, and decided now it's safe to wallow in the mud endlessly because it's too valuable to get thrown out.

What was it you said earlier, pops? Your analogies aren't your strongest point? I had to read this one like five times before I could grasp it, my friend. XD

What do you want me to say though? I like SttB for town, but I'm not really convinced he's town. I've been giving fairly rock solid positions all game (How many lynch wagons have I been on?), I weakly predict SttB to be town, but not enough to actively criticize his wagon. Isn't that fair?

This post is 817 words. This is a warning.

[RedCoyote]

Red I am not sure what else you want to hear from me. You haven't actually asked me any questions that I can see.

It's bigger than just questions though. I think you've known in the back of your head, at least vaguely, that throughout the game I've hinted at your unwillingness to put forth some aggression. If you want me to, I'll dig up the posts where I've addressed you, but I don't think that's necessary.

Players don't have to be aggressive to look town, but they have to be willing to sincerely stick their neck out for something in the game that may not be the popular thing. If you can point to something you've done, then by all means prove me wrong.

You can go overboard with this (sigma, Spyrex to an extent), but it's hard to say you can go 5 days and 74 pages without having really made and committed to a unique position, whether it was accurate or not.

Sigma

Please.

Sigma's posting today so far feels somewhat townish and I can see myself jumping on the mae wagon

Flimsy, non-committal, and completely unforceful.

Now, because I am cherrypicking, I will give you the pressure you put on him during D1 as acceptable, but, still, it was D1.

Idiot King.

Please.

To paraphrase the last post you made before his killing, "I could be convinced to lynch Idiotking".

After a lot of digging, I think this is what you are referencing,

Been reading though the game and I think IK might actually be town. He had a spat with Elvis on day one when she said she wasn't impressed with his CSL vote. Then on day two he was the second vote on her next to Vi. The early vote and anylisis of the wagons makes him look town to me. I still think his whole CSL vote and replacement thing looks bad, but I think his good points out weigh that.

But here's the shift, hon.

Basically I am voting you for being the most suspicious to me right now before I get to ISO read/re-read the game. Right now my second is probably Zak, IK is up there

You can't say that you've stuck your neck out for Idiotking when you make one post and say, "his good points outweigh the bad". Come on, I mean, maybe our definitions of sticking your neck out are different, but I'm not buying that you honestly think this should hold up. At best you gave him a light town read at one point in the game, sandwiched in between one post that says you could be convinced to lynch him and another that says he's "up there" on your scum list.

---

Sorry, Mod! I usually check, but I just eyeballed it this time.

[RedCoyote]

He should answer it if he's going to be lynched. pops/fhq are taking the pressing nature of today too lightly. They need to step up to the plate and give us some feedback. I'm game for all three lynches, but I easily prefer Sotty, even moreso than I had prior to voting her.

I don't know if Pads is right to unvote, but he's right to be concerned about lynching a potential power role. fhq and/or Spyrex need to get serious about a hiphop wagon if that's what they feel is right, and pops needs to make up his mind. The time to kick the tires on a hiphop wagon is closing, y'all need to buy it or get off the lot.

[RedCoyote]

And to restate my position, I wish I could lynch hiphop, but plurality voting or not, it's not happening.

You're little post script here is worrisome, because you should've known that the deadline was approaching. I told you, Spyrex, and fhq that y'all probably had a fair amount of pull to push for a hiphop lynch. I think it's too late to do so now, since none of you took it seriously.

So you're little wish here is really suspicious to me. You're making it out like your hands are tied to a Sotty lynch, when in reality you had enough time to at least attempt a hiphop wagon (you, fhq for sure, definitely Spyrex, and I would've at least considered it had any of you really attempted to sell it). To me it sounds like you are saying, "well, I wanted to lynch hiphop so don't blame me if Sotty flips town ".

---

Are we really going to lynch Sotty based on the fragile case of a pressured lurker who hasn't made a case on anything since, what, Day 2, in the shadow of a significantly more overwhelming case against said lurker? Seriously, lynch me before jumping on that one.

What does this mean? I know you are exaggerating, but if you really thought Sotty was that townie why didn't you say so earlier? I don't like this statement at all, not at all. You've said that you've liked my last few posts, if that's the case, how can you think Sotty is as townie as you are? What I'm really hesitating on is how I don't recall you ever giving Sotty a super-townie recommendation before right now, if you were that sure she was town why didn't you speak up yesterday? The day before? Last week?

Besides, Sotty's big post on the last page is worth more than all of Shotty's Day 3+ play combined.

How can you say both this and the statement above? Was the post that good in your eyes?

---

Just so its ultra-clear: If a wagon were to form on Pads high-fives all around.

I can't say I'm not warming up to the idea, although I'm admittedly having trouble following the current argument between you two.

---

fhq and pops not voting before deadline = an unhappy coyote.

Sotty and SttB both had apt time to claim. SttB has downright refused, and Sotty hasn't really addressed the issue. If either of them had something important to tell us, it will rest heavy on their MS conscience for not revealing it when they should have. I would trade outting a Vig for lynching a Vig in a heartbeat.

[RedCoyote]

How can you say both this and the statement above? Was the post that good in your eyes?

Ignore this in the above post.

[RedCoyote]

Stay out of my head, Spyrex!

If Pads ends up being scum and you're town, I'm going to listen to you for the rest of time.

[RedCoyote]

Well, fhq and pops both said they'll jump on the wagon. If anything drastic happens, I can move to SttB while pouting.

[RedCoyote]

If the question is whether or not I consider SttB or hiphop to be a better lynch than Sotty, my answer is no.

[RedCoyote]

If the question is whether or not hiphop or SttB are better lynches than Sotty, my answer is no.

(Pardon me if I double-post, MS is not working correctly for me).

[RedCoyote]

I’d love to hear opinions on the day kill aspect of this game, but personally I liked it.

I thought it was great for this style of game. I liked how me and RF were somewhat different in our approaches as I prefer night kills, but RF seemed to prefer killing during the day. I think it keeps the town on their toes, not know when a shot is going to occur next.

It’s pretty hard to judge the effect of the word limit from my seat as I’m not sure how much it actually constrained anyone, but I didn’t think it hurt the level of discourse at all.

750 is a good limit, I'd say. I didn't really have a problem with the word count; I think it's a good idea. My only issue came up early in the game when you had post battles between crypto, Vi, and Mae. When you don't post for even a few hours, it's like there's a few new pages staring you in the face. I guess that's the nature of large games though.

I hope everyone found that I was fair in their dealings with me, prompt in my vote counts, and either helped the game be more fun for you or at the very least didn’t get in the way of you having that fun. Mostly, I hope I did not disappoint your expectations of the game.

Very fair and very helpful. You were a great Mod! Thanks for taking them time to do it

---

Spyrex is one of my favorite players now.

Yeah, I'll bet!

---

I'm still a little upset with Zakeri, maybe just out of principle. Who knows if it would've been a game changer had he given this game the time of day, but it's hard for me to cut him any sort of slack after laying down the way he did. I thought SttB kind of sat the final day out, but I guess I can't blame him for getting tired with the game (I know he wanted to replace there at the end). I really enjoyed playing with everyone though, and I thought it was a really fun game.

pops was a total pro, as usual. I don't know how this guy could make so many posts and snug up to Spyrex so well without hardly a peep of suspicion, but he's going to have to give us all some pointers. As much as I loved pops though, I'm totally onto hiphop's ways. I severely underestimated hiphop, thinking of him as some nub who was tangling himself up in ridiculous Godfather conspiracy theories. In retrospect he was probably cracking himself up making those Godfather accusations. hiphop played me and he played me good. I don't think I've ever been in a game here in MS where the mafia earned their win as much as they did here. The Mod said it best, it was a literally a 10 vs 2 game with a Town Vigilante and a Town Jailer against what was effectively just two Mafia Goons at that point. Very well done!

[RedCoyote]

I liked spyrex for the jokes he made, not that he helped me win.

Oh, I was just giving you a hard time, pops. We all like Spyrex, too.