/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
Official weirdest moments of the game was posts 101 and 102 for me. And that includes the sock puppet ><
I don't know why KMD would put pressure to turn a HoS into a vote, and I especially don't know why BridgesandBalloons would listen to him and say something ridiculous like 'the Xyl wagon will continue without me'.
Definitely the most promising of the early wagons.
unvote Xyl, vote BridgesandBalloonsI'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
Y'ello.
My apologies for my lack of input into the game. You'll notice that of my 4 active games, 2 are getting a lot of attention and 2 aren't. That's a direct result of how late the game has gone on - I naturally post more towards the end of a game than in the early stages and it's just been massively exacerbated by an extremely important RL issue.
So apologies, but so it goes. I'll try to give you an idea of where I am with this game some time soon, but for now I'm off to bed.I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
We, being far less couth than some other English-derivative speakers, would insert an 'r' into that word. But all of that is just a well-worded and pithy way of saying SerialClergyman's arse is officially here.I agree Serial needs to get his ass here.
I apologise for the lack of content from me, hopefully this will mark a big turnaround. Plus I've never been one for the first day(s) anyway.
Ok - game time.
ScummiestI think I'm going to vote Yossarian. It's actually more gut than anything else, and it stems from your post at 447. I don't get it at all. It looks like you're a) overly worried about the vote on yourself, b) claiming OMGUS when it wan't really justified (in fact it seems you ironically claimed OMGUS as a way of defending against the charge) and c) BAB caught you out in a pretty big fib in his post at 453. I know you responded to it, but your response looked like overreactive scum.
In fact, lets have a look at it more closely.
yoss wrote:instead of voting for me in what is clearly either a complete failure to read my posts or a pure OMGUS vote?
So you put it out there that his attack on you is OMGUS, which is a relatively poor suggestion. He has actually given you plenty of reasons - none of which were based on your vote for him.My vote for you is because you're scum. I explained why I believe you're scum. You have completly failed to refute that. Plus you claimed vanillia, which automatically makes you a good lynch anyway.
Also, I thought you said you were voting for me because I said that if you were scum xyl was town?
So he replies at 453, quoting where he had given further reasons for his vote:
and then saysBNB wrote:I'm voting you because your meta is off, your posts have a sort of unaffected tone that I've encountered when reading your scum games as opposed to the active scumhunter fearsome Yos I've seen.
Also, I think your attack of me is basically opportunistic and if there wasn't a wagon on me you wouldn't be voting me.
Then, you replied thusly:If you just quoted my post, which stated my reasons for voting you, and then say that I'm voting you "because I think you're not his scumbuddy," I have no choice but to believe you are purposely lying and not simply missing my posts.
So this doesn't look like someone who is genuinely trying to work out who's scum. Whether BAB used those reasons when he first voted you or not, there's still a genuine question there that you've completely ignored. You can make the point that he's added to his original reasons, but you still have to answer them. Your last post is overly aggressive and overly sure. You don't acknowledge that your summary of his reasons for voting you didn't include the reaosns he added later even though you were definitely aware of them.Yoss wrote:So, yes, you were originally voting me because I said that Xyl is town if you're scum.
Afterwords, once I had demonstrated that your wrong and that there was nothing scummy about that, you completely changed your reason; you changed it into basically a bad imitation of Claus' case against me. Basically, it looks like you really want to vote me because I'm voting you, and you'll come up with whatever reason you can to do so, and change your reason when the first one is disproven. What's worse, you seem to refuse to even admit that's what you're doing.
The fact that you're trying to claim "I'm lying" about your reason, when IT WAS THE REASON YOU GAVE WHEN YOU VOTED ME JUST YESTERDAY, has completely convinced me you're cornered scum. You've now gotten to the point where you're actually lying about your own posts in a desperate attempt to make your attackers look bad.
And the language isn't right either. This might be more of a gut thing, but you're too derisive. A cornered scum with a desperate attempt to make his attackers look bad? Really? That's a lot of language to use, and it masks the fact that your post doesn't really address the issue, just stubbornly sticks to his inital reasons and calls him scummy for adding new ones - whether they were worthwhile or not.
In addition, I also have a gut townread on kmd and also don't like your characterisation of yesterday's posts. His argument wasn't that scum never claim vanilla, it was primarily a gut read that scum in BAB's position wouldn't claim vanilla. It was a gutsy point that he knew he'd take flak for but made it anyway. I'm not sure how that plays to a scummy agenda, especially given BAB was in fact a townie.
In short - I think you were arguing about the theory of whether or not 'someone' who claims vanilla d1 should be lynched, but KMD was saying he thought BAB was town and the vanilla claim in that particular situation was part of the reason why. There's a subtle but significant difference between the points.
How do you feel kmd's play was scummy yesterday given the known status of BAB + the others that died?
Runner up prize:zu faul - you finally get into the game by voting me, mentioning it's a pressure vote and saying nothing else about me. I feel more pressure on me to shave my ugly facial hair than I feel from that limpy vote. At least the others who had voted me had bothered to have a look and see the levels of posting discrepency. (note it's not just mafia 96, I've also been pretty active in Welcome to Foggylondontown, but I've also been very lurky in Webcomic Wars. It's a mix of how late the game has gone on and limited time. Thankfully I'm at night and in a quiet patch in the two most active games so here I am.)
I don't think that you particularly think I'm scum, I think you just needed somewhere to park. Tell me strongly and proudly who you think is most likely to be scum and why, please.
Some other questions:
Xyl - if you had to confirm a couple of players as town, who would you choose?
iam - How do you rate your play so far in this game?
rofl - My vote was on the BAB wagon and I was definitely for it. I'm not going to claim that I was impartial to it but voted him nonetheless. I was there, I wanted it to happen. Now - given almost all your theories were completely wrong, do you think you deserve some scrutiny, or were you happy with how you read yesterday?
Pooky - was the charter vote serious?
Vote YossarianI'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
Good honest answer. I asked because when I've seen you in other games your posts have occasionally been written on pure distilled awesome and this game not so much. Didn't know if it was scumminess or just not having a good day at the office and it seems to be the second. Looking forward to it improving.
Out of curiosity, why the zu_faul vote?I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
Little time, but some things of note:
1) Since you find OMGUS such a worrying sign, it's worth mentioning I've skyrocketed to 2nd on your scumlist directly after posting a case against you, when previous to that I don't think you mentioned me once. Of the three reasons you give,
a) You never mention my lurking all through yesterday or early today or when other people were mentioning it,
b) Never mention my behaviour yesterday (by which I assume you mean my lurking) all through yesterday or early today or when other people were mentioning it and
c) My attack on you - well, hello OMGUS.
2) BAB originally used the point about Xyl to vote you. Then raised a number of other points, that you noticed because you quoted them after. Then you failed to mention those points completely and mischaracterised BAB's position as only being about the initial reason.
Regardless of your theory that BAB added to his reasoning because you argued his first point too well, or it was some kind of OMGUS attack, your mischaracterisation of his position and failure to mention the additional points is scummy.
3) Well, I certainly had the impression it was more to do with this particular scenario and actually KMD did relate his point specifically to Bridges. But your quotes make it clear you are pushing a case rather than trying to find out the truth. (hence why you didn't include the 'I'm probably going to take flak for this' in his unvote, which I saw as particularly townie) An example, when asked if he thought scum couldn't claim vanilla -
4) Any reason why you felt that BAB would OMGUS you specifically out of the entire rest of the wagon?kmd in 304 wrote:And I didn't say they can't. I just don't see Bridge doing it. He'd be more likely to claim a power role as scum instead of laying down and taking a lynch. That's unless he's being bussed hard, and is ok with being lynched, but I still think he'd fight it and try to get a mislynch for today.
5) I particularly like this from rofl:
Unless you've got some knowledge about Yos2 that I don't have, looks like you're doing exactly the same thing.rofl wrote:serial is chainsawing for kmd hard, and at this point attacking yos is a scumtell.
Besides, a chainsaw defence is supposed to be a subtle way of defending someone without being linked to them - relatively unusual that I would do that while specifically mentioning my town read of kmd.
More news as events warrant.I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
1) I'm not sure I see how what you wrote in 1) actually answers the charge against you. You may well have considered me no. 2 on your scumlist before Xyl asked you and never thought to mention it once, but I don't believe that. It seems very likely to me that my position in your suspicions has a big part to do with my post against you.
And in case it wasn't clear the first time around, I made my case against you after a re-read now that I have some time to commit to the game. From what I followed on D1 I was happy with the BAB lynch. Now I'm looking back in retrospect with a detailed re-read and I noticed the exchange in question. That's my reason for not talking about your scummy behaviour prior to my bringing it up. What's your reason for not talking about mine until I made a post against you?
Do you usually say that lurking is a scumtell?
2) So your reason for not mentioning the new points is that it was a tl:dr summary.
Why didn't you ever just say that? Even when BAB accused you of misrepping him, I seem to remember you railed on about him being a liar and someone desperately omgusing you. Why not just say 'Well, that was just a summary, I didn't include every reason you've ever had for suspecting me.'?
I'm not trying to mischaracterise your position, it just keeps changing.'I didn't include it because it was just a 3-line post'is different to'That wasn't your reason, look at your post voting me'.
3)
Well, would have been good of you to at least include it or make a reference to it in your posts earlier. It mentions Bridge's name twice and specifically talks about his scenario.Yeah, I still think he's talking about scum in general there; he used bridges name, but I don't think any of that has anything to do with bridges personally, it's all just talking about the position he was in.
Besides - it also specifically notes that it's not that scum CAN'T fake vanilla, but that he felt bridges WASN'T. That cannot be interpreted as a general case - that's him saying the general is possible but in this specific case he feels that bridges isn't.KMD wrote:And I didn't say they can't. I just don't see Bridge doing it.
4) Fair enough, if your point is Bridges only attacked and defended those on or against his side I'll conceede that.
5) Nope, not rolefishing, stating the obvious. rofl made an illogicial and hypocritical point about chainsawing. If his point is that I am chainsawing because I'm defending KMD by attacking Yos2 and he makes that WHILE defending Yos2 by attacking me, he's got some explaining to do to show the difference.
I also found your FoS cute. . Because being 2nd on your scumlist doesn't mean your suspicion is on me? That sort of stuff always screams of Perry Mason theatrics to me.I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
Tajo - I don't see scum motivation for what KMD did. Earnt more suspicion for getting off a townie wagon (and he knew what he was in for), when just riding it to lynch he'd fade into the rest of the wagon who were doing the same thing. It was an odd decision, but real gut decisions often are.
Yos2 is over the top. Aggression overload, posting overload. No time to think, just time to argue. No concessions, no doubt, just a clusterfuck of semi-tells and rhetoric. I don't believe he's thinking about his position, just latching on to whatever he knows appears scummy and running with it.
My suspicion is confirmation bias, rofl running with the theory of kmd being scum sees a chainsaw, without realising that when you take away his theory his point is clearly a carbon copy replica of the behaviour he is attacking.So what is the point/motivation of this question, serial?I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
M'okay.
So close but so far from consensus.
Should read:Yos: Anyway, B&B voted me for X, I proved X wrong. He still hasn't answered the points I raised against him. He's probably scum.
B&B: THAT'S A LIE! I DIDN'T VOTE YOU FOR X!
[/quote]Yos: Anyway, B&Bis votingme for X, I proved X wrong. He still hasn't answered the points I raised against him. He's probably scum.
B&B: THAT'S A LIE!I JUST TOLD YOU about Y and Z which I specifically said I was voting you for.
Now, how could you have been expected to know that he was voting you for all those reasons? Becuase you asked... and he answered..
And then you quoted that answer.BridgesAndBaloons wrote:
I'm voting you because your meta is off, your posts have a sort of unaffected tone that I've encountered when reading your scum games as opposed to the active scumhunter fearsome Yos I've seen.Yosarian2 wrote:
Also, you seem to be voting me...because you don't understand why I just said that you wouldn't say that if you were scum with Xyl, or something?
Also, I think your attack of me is basically opportunistic and if there wasn't a wagon on me you wouldn't be voting me.
I can't make it much clearer than that.
Are you suggesting I'm attacking you 'because of the bandwagon'? This sort of comment is just so much hot air. Attacking people you think are scummy isn't scummy, I'm not simplyu attacking you because you were on a bandwagon (that I approved of) and the misrepresentations are in your head. I'm just going by the thread, and I think as quoted above my position is clear.Your attack against me was scummy. It's scummy as hell to be in favor of a bandwagon on day 1, then on day 2 to attack me for that same bandwagon. And your constant misrepresentation were scummy as well.
Since you didn't mention the kmd was speaking generally or specifically point, can I take it you've conceeded that he was speaking specifically? Or are we just agreeing to disagree? Either way, is my read of kmd still scummy?
Your response to the lurking question is interesting. I would have said that my lurking this game was indeed scummy because it's very unlike my meta (see my sig). I don't think I've seen many people who view it as an outright scumtell - most I find seem to view it as a nulltell that is anti town. Will be metaing to check your stance.
Sorry? That wasn't attacking you at all.. Perhaps I didn't explain very well - I was saying that rofl accusing me of chainsawing for kmd is poor logic until he's sure that I or kmd are scum. Otherwise, you could argue that if Y is attacking Z, X is chainsaw defending Z if he attacks Y. And then fill in essentially any player names for the letters. I then went on that this particular defence is supposed to be SUBTLE, ie - if I were scum, I wouldn't want people to KNOW I was scum with KMD. So rather than declare he's town, I would just attack you and your credibility, so your attacks against kmd are naturally dismissed. However I'm making no secret of my gut read of KMD, so the chainsaw charge is pretty useless.Esepcally since, whenever I prove you wrong, you then invent some other BS reason to attack me. Like this:
Quote:
5) Nope, not rolefishing, stating the obvious.
What was particularly funny about the situation was that he was saying I was scummy for attacking you - which, of course, would be a chainsaw defence of you if you were scum. So my point wasn't attacking you or rofl, it was saying his attack on me wasn't valid, and so obviously demonstrated by his own very sentence.
Fair enough about the FoS - it just looked redundant and overly dramatic, but I'm just not an FoS kinda guy.I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
^^ Eeek, badlogic.
1) It matters whether he mentions my lurking previously because we are trying to determine whether his suspicion of me is born of my case against him. As it was, Yos2 went from not mentioning SC ---- not mentioning SC --- SC makes case agaisnt Yos2 --- Yos2 declares SC 2nd most scummy in game. This suggests to me that my case certainly had something to do with it.
2)
Well, I would argue both of those points are born from my case on him. It may well be that it's a legitimate concern, but it looks to me like he didn't like that I attacked him, felt threatened and either a) hit back as scum or b) assumed scumminess on the part of his attacker as town.And since it is clear Yos is voting you because he feels you are misrepping him and lying about him, I would say that by your own definition, he is not OMGUSing you.
However, happily we don't have to debate too much over whether there was OMGUS involved - I generally view OMGUS as essentially a null-tell and was more focusing on the hypocrasy of someone who is quick to accuse others of OMGUS while displaying certainly some of those characteristics himself. (Hypocrasy can be a scumtell.)
Regardless - as I'm 'so scummy' with an ominous ellipsis, would you mind sharing the rest of your reasons with everyone? Or are you content to let your shackled aggression against ekiM remain chained and frothing at the mouth because you feel Yos2 isn't OMGUSing me?
By using my definition and framing your point in my terms, would you be conceeding that my original point that BAB had plenty of reasons to vote Yos2 besides OMGUS and that Yos2's charge of OMGUS was possily unfair was true?I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
I like your reaction but I don't like your reasoning. I put in a few arrogant barbs in that post and you were barely riled.
I don't think I've ever shirked away from my lurking, I acknowledge it completely. I've given my reasons, you're welcome to accept them or not. I can also post a photo of my beautiful girlfriend in my brand new apartment if that'll help, but essentially the point is you all have to determine whether it's indicative of me being scum or not - I'm not denying it at all.
Either way, it doesn't look amazing to me. Mention nothing, then case against him, then you lurked. Well duh ><. Why are you only bringing it up now? Something to do with the case I just posted against you, perhaps? etc etc.
I suspect that he hit back against me because I made a case against him. Do you honestly feel that if I made a case against someone else, or if I continued lurking, he would attack me as hard as he has? Again - I'm not saying this is necessarily a scumtell, I can see town or scum doing it, but it's worth nothing.
All arrogant barbs aside, this is actually terrible logic. I'm accusing Yos of hypocrasy. To do that, I first have to establish that he accused BAB of OMGUS (obvious) and then have to establish that he OMGUSes himself (hopefully done). The hypocrasy is the key point, not the OMGUSing.If OMGUS is a null tell to you, why are you accusing Yos of it? Isn't that hypocritical of you?
YOU PUT IN A SECOND OMINOUS ELLIPSIS WHEN TALKING ABOUT THE FIRST ONE! Love it.
Well, I can't help your being underwhelmed by my initial post. I'm not going to comment on people I don't have reads on out of the blue. I also generally dislike posts that ask people to focus on 'more people' as opposed to some specific person or persons that deserve comment - it feels like you don't want me talking aobut the person I'm talking about. Was there someone specific you wanted my thoughts on?
Ah. Would you mind then reviewing the argument and letting me know your decision?No.I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
Hilarious picture ruined by laborious explanation aside, where's the fishing in that point?
I was making the point that even if I accepted all of what Elvis knits so graciously wrote, it seemed her point was that Yos2 wasn't OMGUSing me, which I thought was an odd solitary reason for a vote.
Since then she's elaborated that I haven't commented on enough people (iamusername has a freaky avatar, ekiM's smallest violin image has already been downloaded to my desktop for use to send to annoying friends, I am actually quite touched that Ojanen said she enjoyed playing with me - that's three more commented on RIGHT THERE) and I lurked (orly?) and she didn't get all angry uppity about my semi-nasty little comments so I am much happier with thinking her suspicion townly.
But all that aside, what part of the question suggested to you that I was fishing?I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
Dear God! You should lynch THAT guy! I thought you were asked for the case on ME though.Lurking, lying, trying to not have an opinion other than "Yos is scum" and "KMD looks town". His posts don't seem like he wants to find scum, they look like he wants Yos2 lynched. He's also fishing for roles.
Lurking tick, never disagreed, gave RL, out-of-game reasons, sorry etc.
Lying? Intruiging. There seems to be a preoccupation with language instead of argument on this site sometimes. The argument that Yos2 said exactly what BAB said when BAB voted him is a poor one. Let me try to phrase my argument against Yos2 so that you can understand. If someone asked me what's going on and I said Zu Faul voted me because he thinks I need some pressure, but I'm totally here now and posting so I don't know what his problem is', then that's a pretty dishonest way of describing the situation.
And yet if someone were to question me on it, I could always post a quote of his voting post, where he does indeed say:
IT'S RIGHT THERE YOU LIAR I SAID HE VOTED ME FOR PRESSURE AND THERE'S THE VOTE etc etc in your standard 'caps lock makes me right' voice. Regardless of the fact that Zu Faul did vote me orinigally for one reason, he is obviously voting for a number of reasons, one of which I ironically have hopefully destroyed by talking about them.Zu Faul wrote:But Vote: SerialClergyman for now. He needs some pressure on him. ekiM needs to post as well as him.
Yos2 did the same thing, he quoted only the reasoning in the inital voting post when the actual reasons were much deeper. Whether you think it's reasonable of Yos2 to do what he did or not, my point is still valid, and it's certainly not lying, despite the language games.
Well, I'm not deliberately trying to not have opinions, I'm just not going to make up fake ones if I'm not getting much of a read. Sorry. Plus I have a few - I think rofl is town who is genuinely trying to hunt scum, just doing it poorly. His gift is being able to encourage wagons and tunnel on someone he thinks is scummy in a powerful way, his weakness is an epic case of confirmation bias. (Not that I'm much better with that, but you know). Xyl is voting via his own way, things like following people he thinks are town rather than looking at the case individually. That's just how he plays, null. e_k seems town to me, despite some seriously bad reasoning at times (see debate about OMGUS and hypocracy around 618ish.) Aside from that, and Yos/Kmd, I can't help you really. Unless you wanted a specific read and I'll be glad to tell you my observations.
I think you argument about finding scum vs wanting Yos2 lynched would be a good one if I was hopping on the flavour of the day bandwagon, but I think I'm the only one who's voting Yos atm.. Seems like a poor pick of person to rail against for an easy lynch.
And rolefishing has been an interesting charge. I'm not quite sure how this argument pans out, so I'm going to envisage how they were thinking it was going to go. I've been accused of rolefishing for two things, my description of rofl's chainsaw and my pointing out of e_k's ominous ellipsis.
So rofl accuses me of chainsaw defending kmd and at the same time says attacking Yos2 is practically a scumtell. I say unless you've got some info about Yos2 that I don't have, you're also potentially chainsawing.
Now, were I scum, I imagine my attackers feel I was hoping my dastardly deed would turn the conversation to something like:
'Well I do have info about Yos2, I'm a cop and he's innocent wait DAMN' and Serial kerpows the PR to the congratulations of all his mafia buddies. Absurd, I know.
The second lot of rolefishing I was accused of via picture, which was certainly more enjoyable if not more convincing, was for this statement to elvis when she voted me while defending Yos2 against an OMGUS accusation I made:
I think that my attackers feel the conversation, were I scum and rolefishing, would go something like:Regardless - as I'm 'so scummy' with an ominous ellipsis, would you mind sharing the rest of your reasons with everyone?
'would you share the rest of your reasons?'
'Yes, I'm a cop who has a guilty on you wait DAMN' and then Serial kerpows the PR to the congratulations of all his mafia buddies.
Absurd, I know.
The short answer is both scenarios are stupid, laughable things to describe as rolefishing. If they were rolefishing, my friendly attackers would at least have to describe them as the most lame and unlikely-to-succede attempts ever.
Or they could realise that the first statement to rofl was and is absolutely true, his argument is hypocritical unless he has some reason to think Yos2 is town beyond gut, and the second statement was simply trying to work out why elvis wouldn't vote someone else because I was too scummy to pass up and then give barely any reasons for it.
In other news:
Yos2 has finally entered puberty, testosterone started flowing though his body and he built up the courage to vote me after the wagon had grown to a sizable number. Unfortunately he decided to concentrate on my summary of his position as something which finally pushed him over the edge, which again points back to OMGUS. It's also probably the least important of all the charges made against me, which is baffling.
Interestingly, he misread my point saying he was looking for 'semi-tells and rhetoric' to read 'scumtells and rhetoric' and got his underpants in a twist about it. I think this is a perfect example of what I was talking about. Rather than re-read what I wrote and try to work out why I was attacking him for looking for scumtells (and thus realise his mistake) he's already on the wagon for it.
But, it could be worse. I could be accusing you of lying and misquoting me and twisting my words, and by language I'd be 100% correct. But it's the argument that's important, and while I think lots of what you write is scummy, that was just a simple misread.I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
In that case, it might be the first time we get to pull a hat out of a rabbit!!!!roflcopter wrote:
no but i might eat baltar'sSerialClergyman wrote:rofl, if I flipped town, would you eat your hat?
(That entire post was set up for that gag while brushing my teeth. You may all thank me for the gift... of laughter.)I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
Yep, I said that, so what. I clearly ddn't expect you to claim in response to my question, did I? How exactly does that conversation go?
Those posts are 100% true. The only reason your argument isn't completely hypocritical is if you were sure that Yos2 was town (or knew he was scum with you - then it's just a lie).
Your charge of chainsawing wasn't any more convincing than ANYONE who attacks ANYONE who is attacking a third party, and it was perfectly demonstrated BY YOUR OWN VERY ATTACK.
I can't be clearer than that.
Genuinely going to bed now, personally hurt you didn't laugh at my hilarious and well-constructed joke.I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
Xyl wrote:I think serial was trying to imply that rofl didn't have a reason to be sure Yos2 is town, and was therefore being a hypocrite.
But anyways, "some knowledge that I don't have" includes meta knowledge. I don't know why you'd read it as meaning role information. If that's what he meant why wouldn't he have written "information" rather than "knowledge"?
Thank you both for framing the point so succinctly.Ojanen wrote:
i was happy with how i read yesterday, and unless you know something i don't i still don't think all my theories were wrong. for instance, kmd-zufaul being scum together. and now i'm willing to bet on you for a third partner.rofl in the same post he talked about the chainsawing wrote:
Unless you've got some knowledge about Yos2 that I don't have, looks like you're doing exactly the same thing.serial making the point about chainsawing answering to rofl wrote:
It felt like a matching response and it was actually making a distinct point about hypocracy that fits the context
Having slept on it, I'm more calm about the accusation because I can at least see where rofl is coming from (when I first heard it I thought both posts were so far away from rolefishing it was bound to be a disengenuous attack). I was going to ask rofl how he thought I could have made my point without the 'rolefishing' bit, but given he used the same rhetorical device as Ojanen points out, I think he should be aware that if you're honestly assessing an argument occasionally you make comments like that with absolutely no intent for any role information, just because it's a true description of the argument.
Anyway, enough about rolefishing.
I'm going to take Ojanen and others summary on board and just deal with the fact that others didn't find the Yos2/BAB thing as scummy as I did. I've also metad him and he was absolutely telling the truth about finding lurking a scumtell and his bunrushing pugilistic style echoes across the forum, so without the BAB/Yos2 thing I am left with a pretty meagre case.
So I will back off and post some thoughts. Firstly - I've played with Ojanentown and been heavily involved in a game where she was scum (my good mate was playing and I was watching from the sidelines.) She looks more engaged in the arguments and is posting more analysis than when she was scum, so my meta read is town at the moment, but I'd warn everyone she is really, really good as scum. Tied kaiyruu so heavily to her scumpartner partner with a beautiful selection of quotes he was speechless, and if you've played with kai - that's something.
Kmd puts me on his obvtown list for reasons absolutely unknown. Don't get me wrong, I'm not scum and I know it, but I have no idea how HE knows it when, as other people I think are town have pointed out, I haven't exactly been a huge protown influence on the game. It worries me that I'm there solely because I'm an outspoken townkmd reader.
iamusername seems to have sunk back into the depths after being summoned at the same time as me. Come back and say stuff please.
Ojanen - I wouldn't say I was fully caught up during the end of yesterday. I skimmed through the latest pages but I missed pages and didn't have a good understanding of the nuances involved. I saw enough to make me happy with my vote, but it wasn't a sterling effort. I did re-read from start to finish before posting content on D2 however.
Your spelling of the word 'ass' is perfect for the American spelling and pronunciation. In Australia (and I think Britain and some other places) the worse is spelt 'arse' because it's pronounced ARE-SE as opposed to AAA-SS. I think something about the Australian version makes it much less acceptable to say in general conversation, more gutteral. So it wasn't your spelling I was having a go at, it was my own dirty Australian ways.I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
Yos2 - the more I re-read our discussions, the more I agree with the XKCD post (also one of my favourite XKCDs). I see both of us sitting in dark rooms glaring at a monitor getting angry that we're being misrepresented. Perhaps what we have here, in such immortal words, is a failure to communicate.
I think your first point in that wallpost above makes that clear - I can't see how my point was unreasonable via my example from Zu Faul's vote on me. You can't see how my point applies to you because your wording was a) true via the language you used and b) not supposed to be a big deal because it was a tl:dr.
So meh - as I said in the post above, what else is left? Well, you've still got lurking I suppose, although I hope that the rolefishing argument is dead and buried. Either way - I certainly have a lot less so willunvote.
And I certainly didn't mean to insult you, was just trying to make a post that said 'you took a while to come on my bandwagon' be a bit more colourful and interesting. I actually had a whole schtick about you sending a telegram at one point (Serial is scummy STOP he must be lying STOP) but I deleted it due to possible-insultingness and not-funnyness, instead turning my nefarious activities to my hilarious hat-out-of-a-rabbit joke).
I'm off to the beach, because I'm in Australia and it's a gorgeous 28 degrees in winter. Will come back refreshed and with new insight.I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
So after having a look at my wagon at it's peak, I'm thinking there's probably some scum on there, and probably some scum who were prepared to jump on both. I've never got many scummy vibes from rofl, so I'm cool with him. Xyl wasn't on the BAB wagon. I'm going to keep running with the Yos2 is town theory. Zu wasn't on BAB's wagon either. That leaves elvis knits.
So I did a re-read of elvis and found it wasn't just my wagon she was on, but also iamusername and now VP as well. Seems to be a very go-with-the-flow list. However, I have some sympathy, as soemone who often finds himself on the day's wagon (last time I won as town I was on every wagon, whether the lynch was scum or town). Plus I know elvis' style is to be aggressive and to be aggressive one should vote, but I'm wondering when we're going to see something emerge from the aggression that isn't just relatively shallow bandwagon joining.
Speaking of people who have dropped off the radar as well, charter has made one post in D2 acknowledging he was still around and that's it.
iam - what are your thoughts on the possibility that Yos2 and I had a townie v townie ego-argument? I like most of your reads. I disagree on rofl-scum, especially after he explained his rolefishing point more. I'm curious that noone accused you of rolefishing for your mentioning of the same thing (rofl's assuredness of Yos2's towniness.) I certainly don't think it's rolefishing - I mention it because I don't like that people attacked me for it but not you. Also, Ojanen's comparison of me and rofl making the same 'unless you have knowledge' point reads as double town to me, despite the fact he used it as a scumtell. Just my gut - I'd be much happier to focus on Zu or VP than rofl at this time.
Thesp - you can check out lumberjack mafia which is my latest finished game that I started from the start for my distaste of the first day, or you could look at the fact that I've replaced into more games than I've started from the beginning at MS or the fact that of my 3 prods in about 8 games, 2 of them have been on the first day (one finished and town, the other ongoing). I'm just not into the whole 'jumping at shadows' first day stuff.
Ojanen - I'm into the VP wagon. I like that you're leading it, I like that iamusername approves of it. I haven't found anything in VP's play to latch onto as powerfully protown and in my experience with him as a player usually there is something. And I especially like the fact that he's getting quite a lot aobut the thread wrong (mixing up certain days, mentioning a rising tide that wasn't etc) I'll gladly lend my vote to this worthy cause.
vote VP BaltarI'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
/wrists at this game sometimes.Xylthixlm wrote:
If we're going to argue semantics, I didn't say you're making bullshit arguments.Yosarian2 wrote:
So, first you attack me because you think I'm "too logical", now you're saying you think I'm "making bullshit arguments"? Don't those two things contradict each other?Xylthixlm wrote:
Noting for my eventual grand analysis of Yosarian2. Usually whenYosarian2 wrote:...am I writing my posts in Latin or something this game? It feels like everything I say this game is getting either misunderstood or misinterpreted by someone.Iget that feeling it's because I'm scum and unconsciously making bullshit arguments.I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
I agree, but I don't have to like it.
Elvis agreeing with bad rolefishing accusation is the second time it's happened. Why do you need someone else to post a hilarious fishing-related image before you confess to sharing the opinion that there was rolefishing going on?
Vp had his wagon grow dramatically yet he lived despite claiming vanilla, something bab couldn't do and something that was hotly debated in favour of lynching yesterday.
Where are all the shocked and outraged people at the failure to lynch vanilla claim today?I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
Ojanen - I absolutely still find it bad. Asking why someone suspects or clears someone else is not role fishing, especially if it's out of the blue.
And zu seems like overeager scumhunter to me, where Elvis has twice said something like "I was thinking that too!"
if she was thinking it, why not say it? Don't like how the discussion went down.
I'm posting on my phone so this is my impression of events an it's difficult to check. Feel free to correct me if I've got it wrong.I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
Fixed.rofl wrote:serialclergyman had a serious case of having his cake and eating it too in posts 772-773. joining the baltar wagon, and the turning around and slinging mud at ekim forjoining the baltar wagon?making up bad and repetitive reasons to join.
Someone joins the wagon I'm on for bad reasons, I point it out and I'm scummy? That shows I'm unsure about the situation, not that I have any knowledge of the wagon being good or bad.
Mind you, if it means Zu recognises me as town and rofl and elvis are the ones who don't, I think I'm ok with it.
Although I'm disappointed at Ojanen.
Rofl - any comment on the rolefishing argument or are you leaving that one alone?
Elvis I'm fully aware of what a breadcrumb is. One thing that it usually is is subtle. But aside from that, if he is a PR breadcrumbing and he's called on it he's got the ability to say 'gut' or the like, in which case I won't be too convinced but there won't be a PR outed either. The only other option is leaving any odd declarations of suspicion or innocence completely unexplored, which is ridiculous. We need to have the right to challenge odd reads or changes of mind.
Finally, your question about the breadcrumb appears to be rolefishing in and of itself, under your definition. Are you trying to get the person to confirm or deny it was a breadcrumb?
Also this:
Ojanen wrote:SC's 844 is strangely disagreeable. I'd be interested to see if he finds this rolefishing accusation still bad if he actually checked the context of the original zu comment.SC wrote:Ojanen - I absolutely still find it bad. Asking why someone suspects or clears someone else is not role fishing, especially if it's out of the blue.
See? Not scummy. You're just lucky I got here before try cry goes up that you're fishing for an investigation or the like from rofl and Zu found a big picutre of a tuna and Elvis came along and said she was thinking the same thing.Ojanen wrote:Rofl, why is it scummy to vote Yos at this point?I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
tajo wrote:In the other hand, Ive been asking Serial why he thinks KMD is town for years now. Serial?Years ago, Serial wrote:Tajo - I don't see scum motivation for what KMD did. Earnt more suspicion for getting off a townie wagon (and he knew what he was in for), when just riding it to lynch he'd fade into the rest of the wagon who were doing the same thing. It was an odd decision, but real gut decisions often are.I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
Instantly forgiven.Ojanen wrote::puppyeyes:
In other news,
Yos2 can be charged with not just the OMGUS-related hypocrasy, but also the 'wait until someone else attacks' hypocrasy. I seem to remember his vote on me (also directly after I made a case on him) and his vote on Xyl happened after one or more other people attacked and voted first, much like he accused Xyl of doing.Ojanen wrote:Yos, you speak often about OMGUS but I'm sorry, you sometimes come across as quick to judge others for suspecting you too.
More posts from elvis please.I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
I don't agree with this. Not just the point in general but also the specifics from elvis. Keep an open mind on her.Xyl wrote:Person who makes it is town.
I was kind of disappointed it was elvis, since I already thought she was town.
Aside from that, lets get this VP wagon done. I'm sure Yos2 will join due to his distaste at claiming vanilla.I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
In fact, while I'm rummaging around.. Replace BAB with VP and see if it's the same thought process
Elvis' philosophy seems to have changed dramatically on D2.elvis_knits wrote:Claus, I'd like a scum list too but I'm not going to beg for it and I'm not going to wait 12 days for it. I also think there's no reason why BAB shouldn't be kept close to a lynch in meantime. A vanilla claim from a scummy person should cement their lynch, honestly. I mean, if you're not lynching a vanilla, who would you go through with the lynch on? Keep the claimed vanilla, kill the claimed doc? Because we think scum would fake a power role? That is backwards thinking.
This should be our thinking:
1)BAB is scummy
2)BAB claimed vanilla
3)BAB is either vanilla or scum.
4)If we lynch BAB, we either lynch scum or vanilla, therefore little damage to town, or huge advantage. As a bonus, no power roles have to claim today.I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
A good part of why I have a townread on Xyl is that his behaviour is actually very similar to a game I just played with him as town here.elvis wrote:That's a scum explanation if I ever saw one. I don't remember him thinking like this in other games.
He also regularly uses the 'look for town and vote other people' style of play, to great effect (I was scum and it was damn annoying).I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
Well - that's kind of the problem. Last time this happened, the vanilla claim directly affected your actions. This time it didn't. You argued FOR a BAB lynch, and voted directly after his claim. Now VP does the SAME THING and rather than doing the same thing and pushing his wagon, you're actually pulling out of it. So there is a contradiction in your actions.Me unvoting VP had nothing to do with his claim.
Now you might ahve overriding reasons for that decision, and the reasons you gave were OK, but that doesn't mean that it's surprising at least that your response was different.
Also, as I said:I'd point out though that your logic of 'at worst vanilla, at best scum' isn't really affected by the points you made to get off his wagon.I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
I've also read the mind screw mafia he was nominated for, so I have some contrast. But my main point was elvis' point about Xyl's style doesn't really hold, given I have literally just finished a game where he did exactly the same thing as town.
Also, tbh I think your play has been much different from that game. That game you were so desperate to scumhunt and get scum lynched you got yourself NKed for being obvtown. This game, I see nothing of the sort.
But that's a minor thing, meta has never really been a big factor in my game.I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
Iam doesn't know how to talk to women, he comes from Surrey, so that's why he's getting ignored while elvis and I are having a nice conversation.
Well elvis, remember he was scummy enough for you to add your vote to the wagon. So in both situations, someone you found scummy was run up to a vanilla claim, and you reacted differently. As you say, there were differences, and I accept that, but I think the situations are more similar than you're acknowledging.I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
elvis - fair enough.
The speed of the wagon didn't bother me for the opposite reason it DID bother you.
These were the 7 that put him to L-1
ekiM, iamausername, Ojanen, SerialClergyman, Thesp, Xylthixlm, elvis
I think iam, Ojanen, Xyl are town. I am town. Thesp I'm leaning town on, elvis I'm neutral (conflicted) on. eKim I'm neutral on, but I didn't like his reasons, so say that's one leaning scummy.
So judging by my reads that wagon is town-fuelled, and I'm happy to be on it.
And all of that ignores the fact I don't like how VP has been playing and think he's likely to be scum in a vacuum (ie without even looking at the wagons).I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
I'm not sure what your 1) is meant to say.. I didn't NK you, the other scum team did. I'm just saying, and anyone can check, that you were a town cop but were so bursting with pugilistic towniness that you couldn't even stay quiet and protect your role (you played awesome by the way, and had the other mafia gone for us like they should have you'd have stayed around for a while - not having a go at you or your playstyle)). However, that's in marked contrast to you now.
And I get the interest point is a possible explanation for your actions, and I get that interest can greatly affect your posting (look at my day 1 vs my emerald posting at the time), it just doesn't do much do discourage my vote on you. To borrow elvis' argument structure, worst case you're unmotivated, unhunting vanilla, best case you're scum.I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
Sorry, why is noone voting Baltar?
We just had a massive derailing of a wagon, running up Xyl who is now confirmed town led by roflcopter and yet when day breaks on D3 he's back to his kmd case and it's like nothing happened.
Voting for Pooky isn't the best course of action either - we have plenty to look at from the last couple of days, man up (or woman up) and pick your scum.
The two people we know for sure are town thanks to their flips were either on or instigating the Baltar wagon, and the push to switch to someone else was led by the scummiest group. Back on, kiddies.
vote VP Baltar
In other news, only one dead tonight. There was no flavour delinearating kills on D1, they were both killed. I had thought it's possible itshim was a vig kill and that theory is still possible, but it looks to me like there was a double kill on Ojanen last night from anti-town groups.I'm old now.-
-
SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia