Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)
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Kmd4390 I lost a bet.
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Kmd4390 I lost a bet.
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Kmd4390 I lost a bet.
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Kmd4390 I lost a bet.
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Kmd4390 I lost a bet.
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Kmd4390 I lost a bet.
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Hey.alexhans wrote: HI KMD!
Not yet. I've read from my first post to this line here. I'm just following Camn until I have enough to make my own decision.alex wrote:KMD...did you even read before voting Cephir?
she?!?alexhans wrote: Kai... how do we know she didn't notice? Is she town then?
Do you think he is scum or just disagree with his playstyle?alexhans wrote: Using other people's arguments to suspect people...
Being so unhelpful you're not a good asset to town. You could hide forever behind this crappy attitude. Not willing to let that happen.
Vote SensFan
Um. How is scumhunting any less helpful Day 1 than later in the game? And how would you suggest playing? I've caught a few scum Day 1 this way before. VP can tell you about one of those.camn wrote:That these Line by Line attack/rebuttal cases based on early Day 1 "slips" are not helpful in catching scum now, and not helpful looking back either.
I, for one, can't remember anyone EVER catching scum that way on day 1. .. though I admit it has maybe happened.
But I also admit, I am a very poor Day-1 player. My strength is endgame.
Camn said he was scum. About Mastin, I found it likely that a few of his votes were based on playstyle rather than actually being scummy. Ceph was a better vote on no information.Benmage wrote: What was the reasoning behind this? What do you feel about Mastin?
They were hoping I was scum who was about to slip up because I replaced in not knowing anything that had happened yet and could possibly fakeclaim a power role as scum. Nobody did anything wrong. I'd have done the same thing in their position.Benmage wrote: Lol wtf just happened…this was the weirdest bunch of events. We are all vanilla, except for scum…Everyone will claim VT…*sigh*
I was considering doing this in a game.Benmage wrote: Lol that’s fine and all. But listing 4 people and saying “one of these 4 is scum” is so arbitrary. I guarantee I could run a randomizer on the people in this game, totally indiscriminate, pull out four people and have just as much confidence in claiming “one of these 4 is scum”.
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So, these past few pages give me something to work with. I now know that I DON'T like alex or GIEFF. I DO like Sens, Camn, and Benmage.
Unvote, Vote GIEFFKMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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Kmd4390 I lost a bet.
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k, your vote is scummy then.alexhans wrote:
I'm not sure but I'm confortable with voting him until he plays. He is most unhelpful and may hide behind his null play attitude the whole game.KMD wrote:Do you think he is scum or just disagree with his playstyle?
I have nothing more to say than what I have already.alex wrote:
why? why? why? why? and... oh... whY?KMD wrote: So, these past few pages give me something to work with. I now know that I DON'T like alex or GIEFF. I DO like Sens, Camn, and Benmage.
^See above.Alex wrote:
errr... you probably know what I'm goint to ask you...KMD wrote:Unvote, Vote GIEFF
it starts with W, then H, then Y... then and exclamation mark...
Fair enough. It's the way I play, but I can understand not wanting to play the same way.camn wrote: Also, @KMD... I don't have very good Day1 strategy, as I have mentioned... and I am not against scumhunting. I just am not sure that verbose, line-by-line arguments are a useful way to do it.
um...what?alexhans wrote:Camn... quit acting like a child... if you're town... you're being most unhelpful with ridiculous questions...
For the first time ever, I have a town read on you. Must be learning how you play or something. Not completely sure TBH.Benmage wrote:
No WAY KMD!! You have to assume I’m scum….am I growing on you??Kmd4390 wrote: So, these past few pages give me something to work with. I now know that I DON'T like alex or GIEFF. I DO like Sens, Camn, and Benmage.
I think I have to explain our violent history. We played a game (Tranquility) before where I was sure she was scum. She wasn't. Next game we played together (Night Watch), I found myself dead on N0. Camn was the scum who killed me. So I figure it's kinda funny that she killed me just for revenge. I join another game (Medieval) that she's in and she vidges me. I was scum there. Another game (Zazie-modded), she replaces in during Night and I end up dead. That time though, she was actually town. Just coincidence that I died as soon as she came in. So then we come to Spy-modded, which was a playerlist determined by the players where I invited her to play. We were both scum, but on opposing groups. I tried to kill her N1, but her buddy RB'd me. On Night 3, we crosskilled, giving the game to town. So now I join here and she's saying she isn't going to kill me because the only killing roles are scum, which obviously if she's scum, she won't admit it. But I can almost guarantee that if she's scum, I WILL be NK'd in this game. I know if I was scum, Camn wouldn't be living past today. Damn, that was longer than I thought it would be.GIEFF wrote: Were you scum in either of the two games in which you grudgekilled kmd?
FoS camn
Not seeing this.GIEFF wrote:camn wrote:And I don't consider 'lynching' 'killing'.
If so, than saying "I promise not tokillyou this game" looks a lot like a scumslip to me.
[:oops:] Wasn't buddying one of my biggest points against you in tranquility? [/:oops:]camn wrote: My comment to KMD is an ongoing conversation between us. The fact that you see it as a scumslip is just a byproduct of your tunnel-vision regarding me. It is no more scummy than me 'buddying' was. . . but you seem to want ANYTHING I do or say to be scummy, regardless of any kind of rational, logical analysis.
I've actually never finished a game with BM before. But yeah, I definitely have experience with you and Camn.SensFan wrote: KMD, BM, camn, Sens all seem to understand each other. You really think its because we're all Scum, as opposed to the fact we all have enough experience to see that none of us are being scummy?KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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Kmd4390 I lost a bet.
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Kmd4390 I lost a bet.
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Kmd4390 I lost a bet.
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Can't. I'm working from 10AM to 4PM and from 6PM to 11PM tomorrow. Maybe when I get home though. Or maybe I can come home in between. I live a half an hour away from work.Battle Mage wrote:
ok, let's go sleep now, come back tomorrow, and re-assess the entire game, k?Kmd4390 wrote:
I slept for about 4 hours this morning.Battle Mage wrote: I blame not knowing any of you guys. And 1 hours sleep last night.
BMKMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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Kmd4390 I lost a bet.
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Kmd4390 I lost a bet.
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Kmd4390 I lost a bet.
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Kmd4390 I lost a bet.
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Kmd4390 I lost a bet.
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So you keep asking, knowing her opinion and not being willing to change your own? How does that make sense unless you are trying to make sure everyone else sees the vote as OMGUS?GIEFF wrote:The use of the word "OMGUS" is irrelevant. I ask you again because I think your vote was OMGUS, no matter what you claim.
Well, my read on you is obviously scum to begin with. You don't seem to actually believe your case and you are repeating the same thing AFTER SHE ANSWERS just to get the points, that are crap to begin with, across. You are trying to push this probable mislynch.GIEFF wrote: No, I am pointing out behavior that I think is scummy, and explaining why I think it's scummy. If you don't agree with me, tell me why, or even better, let camn do it. Just saying "That case is BS" helps nothing. What if camn is scum?
Unrelated throwaway comment that can be seen as buddying. Camn does this. One of the things I like about playing with her. She makes games fun. (That's the reasonGIEFF wrote:
Appeal to emotion.camn wrote:Totally.
And to think.. I joined this game cuz I wanted to play with him again!joined this game. )IKMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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Kmd4390 I lost a bet.
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Yeah, I'm happy with my vote.camn wrote:to make camn look bad, GIEFF wrote:You said:
camn wrote:@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.
Remember this ???but in reality, camn ACTUALLY wrote:@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.
But then again, I don't believe in town-tells, so I call it null.GIEFF wrote: You even went so far as to edit out the part of my quote that mentioned your over-reaction.KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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HAHAHA.camn wrote:I think he is trying the KMD GAMBIT... but I am the only person in the history of MS.NET dumb enough to actually fall for it....
no.
Although that "Gambit" brought me to my favorite tool in catching scum which has been pretty successful and once caught an entire scumteam. Unfortunately, it doesn't work until someone is confirmed town which we saw when Stef was scum in tranquility.
One of these days you'll see it work.
Oh and post 398 is so bad it hurts.KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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Kmd4390 I lost a bet.
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Actually, it does.GIEFF wrote:
Is that supposed to demonstrate hypocrisy? It does not.camn wrote:to make camn look bad, GIEFF wrote:You said:
camn wrote:@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.
Remember this ???but in reality, camn ACTUALLY wrote:@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.
But then again, I don't believe in town-tells, so I call it null.GIEFF wrote: You even went so far as to edit out the part of my quote that mentioned your over-reaction.
It was relevent. She said she didn't believe in towntells. Basically nullifies what you are making a point on.GIEFF wrote:I didn't copy that part of your quote because it wasn't relevant. All that was relevant to make my point was the fact that you said getting angry is something townies do.
Gut.GIEFF wrote:
Care to provide any reasoning from BEFORE you voted me? Or is your role "vanilla townie who can predict GIEFF's future posts?"Kmd4390 wrote:Yeah, I'm happy with my vote.
/WIN!!camn wrote: Maybe he is a Red Sox fan.KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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Kmd4390 I lost a bet.
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I prefer not to go point-by-point to defend someone, but since you asked:GIEFF wrote: Tell me why my post is bad. Tell me why my case is bad. Tell me why you voted for me. Do ANYTHING remotely pro-town.
You took out the part of her post that would invalidate your argument. And this comes AFTER you attacked someone else for apparently doing the same thing. First, scummy. Second, hypocritical and scummy.GIEFF wrote:camn, picking one part out of my post and claiming it is wrong does not negate the larger point I am making. You can't deny that your focus has been more toward being viewed as town than as finding scum because you have spent almost no effort finding scum.
What the hell. Ok, so you think she's really annoyed with you (not faking), but you said earlier that she is trying to respond how a townie would, which would imply that her reaction is fake. Contradict much?GIEFF wrote:1. No, I don't think you are faking being annoyed at me. I do think that a very plausible explanation for your over-reaction is that it looks townie to get angry, and you had done zero scumhunting up to that point, so it at least gave you a non-random vote. I can see either town or scum doing this, as it serves both aligments' interests. But it is a GREATER concern of scum, and that is the issue.
Next, you say either town or scum could do it, but because scum could, she's scum. Well why scum and not town if you can see it from town. Hell, if you think it's "GREATER concern" for scum, why even MENTION that it could come from town?
This applies to the way you are pushing this case. You just want everyone else to see it, think "hey that's a lot of words" and agree with you like so many people decide to do. I don't like it.GIEFF wrote:2. It doesn't matter what YOU believe. It matters what you think others believe, or are trying to get them to believe. You are post-facto explaining your behavior as, if anything, a town-tell. Just because YOU call it null doesn't mean others will.
Yes, you are misrepping. Camn has never been one to see OMGUS as a scumtell as far as I can remember. If you think she's scum here, she must have been scum in completed games where she was town too. Oh wait. Kind of impossible.GIEFF wrote:3. I am not misrepping you, and I am not ignoring reality. Are you really claiming that your statement about OMGUS was NOT meant to make yourself look townie? That is demonstrably false. LYING about trying to look townie is a lot worse than trying to look townie.
1. Isn't that called a defense? Wouldn't it have been scummy if she didn't defend herself?GIEFF wrote:1. You were trying to say that you are not scummy.
2. You did not deny OMGUS.
2. Why would she?
You are scummy for pushing this the way you are. What is wrong with "fighting tooth and nail", as you put it, when someone is scummy?GIEFF wrote:Yet when I make the claim that you are trying hard to be seen as not scummy, you fight it tooth and nail. When I make the claim that your vote was OMGUS, you fight it tooth and nail. Why?KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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Because she wasn't calling it a towntell which would be needed for your arguement to hold.GIEFF wrote:
Maybe this is why you think my posts are bad - you don't understand them.Kmd4390 wrote:GIEFF wrote: I didn't copy that part of your quote because it wasn't relevant. All that was relevant to make my point was the fact that you said getting angry is something townies do.
It was relevent. She said she didn't believe in towntells. Basically nullifies what you are making a point on.
My point: camn is acting in a way she thinks others will perceive as pro-town. In what way does camn claiming she doesn't believe in towntells nullify that?
If she doesn't see it as a scumtell, and she acknowledges that she did it, why should she not state that as a defense?GIEFF wrote:In response to an accusation of OMGUS, she doesn't deny it - she explains how it should NOT be viewed as scummy. What she HERSELF thinks is not relevant, obviously. She is not the one she is trying to convince of not being scum.
No.GIEFF wrote:Do you see how silly it is to take one omission in one quote that is not at all relevant to the above point, just argue against that, and ignore everything else?
Well, considering random odds for someone to be town are generally between 67-75%, I'd say about 85-90%. Why are you asking?GIEFF wrote:Kmd, how sure are you that camn is town, percentage-wise?
Can't we just lynch GIEFF now instead? I think that would be a bit more productive.camn wrote: And PLEASE LYNCH ME!!!!!
PLEASE!
DO IT NOW!!!
I want to die right now just so the world will see how flawed your so-called "scumhunting" is.
Oh, and you ignored my logical proof that you actually think I am town. Whats up with that?KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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I disagree.GIEFF wrote:It did not invalidate my argument. It was irrelevant to my point, in fact.
The last line of this can be answered the same way Camn ALREADY ANSWERED IT. Some townies get annoyed/angry/frustrated when being called scum.GIEFF wrote:All that is relevant about camn's behavior is that she is trying to be perceived as town. Alex accused her of OMGUS, and she said "townies get mad," post-facto calling herself a townie for her own outburst. Do you deny this? It is scummy that she does it in such a roundabout way. If she just said "Yes I got angry, but that's not scummy" it would not be scummy. Rather than address alex directly, she danced around it, is now pretending alex wasn't accusing her of anything, and that her response was not meant in any way to lessen suspicion of camn. What pro-town reason is there to go about defending yourself in such a circuitous way?
I actually think that, comparatively, Camn is playing how I've seen her play as town. Like she said, she's a better late-game player than Day 1 player.GIEFF wrote:This is my point:
Scum want to be perceived as town. Town want to be perceived as town, but also want to find scum. So wanting to be perceived as town is ONLY a scumtell if someone is doing it a LOT more than they are trying to find scum. And this fits camn perfectly.
So you don't think the OMGUS was scummy and you don't think she was trying to act how she thinks townies act?GIEFF wrote:I am not misrepping. If you read the context, her charge of "misrepping" was due to me claiming she was faking being annoyed (which I did not do), as well as claiming that because she said she doesn't believe in town tells, it means she was NOT trying to paint herself in a pro-town light.
It is as clear as day that camn was DEFENDING herself in her response to alex. As clear as day. There is no misrep.
So what are you suggesting? She is scum with alex and it was only distancing, but then she got worried when you, a townie, called her out?GIEFF wrote:You pull things out of context, and miss the point. The POINT is that she reacted ONE way to alex's accusation of OMGUS, and another way to my accusation of OMGUS. As I said immediately after this, and as YOU stripped out of the quote:
Actually, what is your opinion of alexhans?KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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Kmd4390 I lost a bet.
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Kmd4390 I lost a bet.
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How have I not scumhunted? I've already caught you and alexhans.GIEFF wrote:KMD has contributed very little scumhunting. I don't like his vote on me, and retro-active attempt to justify it. I didn't like his adamant defense of you, and his assumption that my case was crap before he knew what it was, but as he doesn't appear to be the only one to think my case sucks, that's not as big a deal.
What is wrong with my vote on you?
I defended Camn because I think she is town, I think you are scum, and I didn't like the case.
Why do you think I didn't know the case? I knew what it was. I just happened to disagree with it.
This is pretty accurate here.camn wrote: Plus, although we like each other, both of us would be very happy to see the other dead... so I would guess his reads are as unbiased as one can expect.
Heh, that would be fun.camn wrote: Unless, of course, you are implying that we are scumbuddies. Are you?
Bad argument like it was there. I was town in that game and so was Empking.GIEFF wrote: I am not implying you are scumbuddies, unless KMD starts making quote pyramids.
Yep. Just cuz killing each other is fun doesn't mean playing together isn't.Benmage wrote:
Didn’t you just go on a tangent of you two vengefully killing eachother… O.o …Kmd4390 wrote:(That's the reasonjoined this game. )I
How is it distracting? I think it has added a lot to the game.Benmage wrote: I can’t read this Gieff vs Camn/KmD conflict anymore. It rivals BM vs Alex in fluff/uselessness/and has totally derailed any direction for the day. It also makes catching up in this game less favorable than slamming ones head in to the wall. Regardless I still think a Mastin lynch is best thus far. I really wish he wasn’t only on page 3…*sigh*
Ouch!Benmage wrote:If you gave initial context it wouldn't have been an omgus-vote/seemed scummy/made you look like a bad player. I don't know if the wiki offers a handbook or something, but I'd suggest playing some more newbie games, they may be more fitting.KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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^Fix'd.Benmage wrote: Don’t worry Camn, ask KmD or Kairyuu, first we fight. Than it gets tiresome,we become best friends, and KmD realizes I am always town.then I decide to be a dick to someone else instead for no reason.
It seemed like a ton of back and forth, in which I couldn’t even decipher the main points. Then you hopped into the madness. If you want to bullet it for me so I can grasp the main points. All I understood was what Senfans bulleted.[/quote]Benmage wrote: How is it distracting? I think it has added a lot to the game.
I'll get to this when I feel less lazy.
I can't open the link, but I'll assume it's my defense of Camn. GIEFF's case was such crap that I wasn't going to let him push it the way he was. That and my initial scum read on GIEFF and town read on Camn.VP Baltar wrote: Why did you feel the need to intervene here, Kmd?KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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Heh, if this weren't a game with no power roles, I'd be thinking this was an awesome Gambit for a lie detector role. (Ok, there are better things to trick someone into saying, but still.)jammer wrote: @Gieff, please insert a third option.
1) you are mafia.
2) you are town.
3) ?KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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I like to call it "a vote with no backing".Benmage wrote:
Ok...what is a vote with no backing called??VP Baltar wrote:
It's not called OMGUS. Read more.benmage wrote:A vote with no backing is called what?
OMGUS is technically voting for someone because they voted for you. Although if someone suspected you, but didn't vote, and you vote them for suspecting you, it can be called OMGUS too.KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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Kmd4390 I lost a bet.
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Kmd4390 I lost a bet.
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Kmd4390 I lost a bet.
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Voting for ANYONE other than a player who you think is scum, is scummy.alexhans wrote:
No. It's not. I have my reasons and I have given them. I'm just not sure enough to call him scum.Kmd4390 wrote:
k, your vote is scummy then.alexhans wrote:
I'm not sure but I'm confortable with voting him until he plays. He is most unhelpful and may hide behind his null play attitude the whole game.KMD wrote:Do you think he is scum or just disagree with his playstyle?
What is anti-town about WIFOM? I'm getting so sick of repeating this in every single game I play.alexhans wrote: Thanks for the wifom KMD. REALLY anti-town.
If I feel a case is crap, I see no reason not to call it that. And yes, I added that because that's what I think it would be if we were to lynch Camn. A mislynch.alexhans wrote:
hey... calling cases crap is NEVER a good defense... you should know that by now... Was it necesary to add the words probable mislynch?KMD wrote: Well, my read on you is obviously scum to begin with. You don't seem to actually believe your case and you are repeating the same thing AFTER SHE ANSWERS just to get the points, that are crap to begin with, across. You are trying to push this probable mislynch.
Because scum are never active and inquisitive, right?alexhans wrote: Yeah... right. Lynch the most active and inquisitive player... Are you scum again KMD?
I prefer to lynch GIEFF first. I'll come to you tomorrow.alexhans wrote:
lol. You still need to make up a reason to so you can make-believe I'm scum sweet Mr.Holmes...KMD wrote:How have I not scumhunted? I've already caught you and alexhans.KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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What happened to not thinking he was scum? >.<alexhans wrote: He is scummy IMO... I just didn't know if he was scum or if I was going for the wrong tells.
alex wrote: A bit of wifom is not bad... but extreme and unnecesary WIFOM leads to confusion and chaos.KMD's WIFOM QUOTE wrote:But I can almost guarantee that if she's scum, I WILL be NK'd in this game. I know if I was scum, Camn wouldn't be living past today.
Nobody is going to seriously lynch Camn or myself if the other turns up dead. Not unless there is more of a case.Alex wrote: What's the point of this... you're predicting the future with what purpose? If you're not nightkilled you're presumably leading us to believe that she is town... but then, you could assume that scum might kill you... to set up camn... unless you were scum... and if she died it should tell us that you're scum... Of course... after having said this... as scum, you wouldn't kill her... or would you? WIFOM... Sucks... and it was totally unnecesary.
Thanks for not reading my posts..alex wrote:
They sure can be... but at this point you have done nothing but buddy up to Camn and call GIEFF's case crap. There's no logic involved there.KMD wrote: Because scum are never active and inquisitive, right?
Why? That could distract us from lynching GIEFF.Alex wrote: Tell me TODAY why will you come for me tomorrow.KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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What if I don't have anything now?alexhans wrote:
Because I don't want to give you time to make BS up. That's why. If you have something now. You should say it now.KMD wrote:
Why? That could distract us from lynching GIEFF.
You really think that based on my statement, one of us will die and the other will definitely be lynched based on it tomorrow? I don't see it happening.Benmage wrote:
Woah, let's not jump the gun.Kmd4390 wrote: Nobody is going to seriously lynch Camn or myself if the other turns up dead. Not unless there is more of a case.KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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Actually, knowing Camn's meta, things that you are calling scumtells are things that I have seen Camn do as town. I've even called her scum for most of the same reasons before. And I've always been wrong (except in Spy's Mini Normal). And is it my fault you did things later to reinforce my opinion on you?GIEFF wrote: You are so sure camn is town that you don't apply scumtells to her - this is scummy no matter camn's alignment. As is voting for me for no reason, and then using things that happen AFTER your vote to justify it.
While I disagree with policy lynching and revenge lurking, and even lurkerlynching depending on the situation, I guess I see your point. I just don't think Sens exactly qualifies as any of these things.camn wrote:
This is totally untrue, and I disagree with it utterly.KMD wrote:Voting for ANYONE other than a player who you think is scum, is scummy.
E.G., policy lynches., voting no-lynch, clarity-lynches, revenge lynches, pressure votes, lurkerlynching.KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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Know what I'm tired of? The blatant misrep that I apparently didn't understand the case. I've already said that I understood it, but happened to disagree. I went point-by-point to show why I disagree. And I didn't say Camn is scummy. I said she does things that would be scummy if it was anyone else (appearing not to scumhunt, going all-out against lurkers, buddying, etc). And if you think my vote on you is 100% based on you being hypocritical, you really haven't read my posts. TBH, I forgot about that until you mentioned it just now. You want to know why I'm voting you? As soon as I came in, my gut said you were scum. That's how I play. I voted based on that and you haven't done anything to convince me that I'm wrong.GIEFF wrote:
OK, well since then you have blindly defended camn (although she has performed behvaior you claim is scummy), said you are happy with your vote for me (because you think I was being hypocritical when I was not), said my case is crap (when you did not understand it), but still haven't given any reasons. Time to take the training wheels off - give some reasons. They don't even have to be good ones. I'm tired of people voting me for no reason.Kmd wrote:I didn't give reasons yet at the time because I was just starting out and wasn't looking to convince anyone yet.
And I'm tired of Battle Mage ignoring my post 378.
Why?Battle Mage wrote: Alex isnt even worth discussing at this point.
I can go back and find the reasons when I want to make a case.alexhans wrote:
Then there's no reason for your apparent suspicions on me. Why would you go for me tomorrow if you have no reason to think I'm scum?KMD wrote:What if I don't have anything now?
Translation: It's scummy.
If that's your argument, I just did the town a favor.alexhans wrote: No... I don't know what to think anymore. You've just opened a justification for everything to happen without being able to get leads from it. That's what WIFOM might cause.
Yep.alexhans wrote: KMD... you think it's GIEFF and me together?
Um. I don't really know. She was scum in the last game I played with her, but I can't really think of anything she did differently. Let me go back and see why I ended up suspecting her there.alexhans wrote: KMD: From your experience...
What are Camn's town tells and what are her scum tells in general?
Ok, here is my initial post in THAT GAME saying why I suspected her:
I'll mention that I was also scum in that game, but afat and I had assumed there was a second scum group, so my scumhunting attempts were genuine there.Kmd in a game with Camnscum wrote:Camn... Hmm. Camn. I was thinking about her play last night. It doesn't seem like her. Not as active. Not as ridiculously protown. Not as hard on lurkers. She did make her early "reads on everyone aka who is lurking" post. I always want to call her out for buddying up, but I've seen her do it way too many times as town, so I can ignore that. She layed a lazy vote on Myko and never really came back to that. She's said she suspects me, but not really why. She's put out weak attacks on VP and Llama. She said Llama needed scrutinty, but didn't really give any around the time she said it.
This really has me interested here:
She sets herself up to look good pretty much no matter who is lynched by saying she wouldn't be surprised to see VP, Llama, and myself all be town. Three players who SHE SUSPECTED until this post. And she's even come back to suspecting Llama.Camn wrote:Though I would LOVE to put SOMEBODY at L-1.. I don't really get scum from VP right now.
In fact, it would not surprise me at all to see VP, KMD, and Llama ALL be town...
I really am thinking NOW, that Mykonian, Zazie, and maybe Plum need some more pressure... but I understand that the deadline is going to be on top of us really soon.
Another thing about that post is who she names as scum. Two of those players have flipped town. The other, Myko, is someone who I think is town. Camn, what made you suspect Plum, Zazie, and Myko? Are you still suspicious of Myko? Hell, what had you suspicious of Llama, VP, and myself? What made you change your mind? And now, why are you back on Llama?
See the bolded. I agree with Camn in general, but not in this specific situation.alexhans wrote:
ohhh... changing your mind now? First you speak in general to use it against me but now... you wiggle around it so you agree with Camn and still see me as scummy?KMD wrote: While I disagree with policy lynching and revenge lurking, and even lurkerlynching depending on the situation, I guess I see your point.I just don't think Sens exactly qualifies as any of these things.
Wait, there are people here who you invited to play? Just out of curiosity, who?alexhans wrote:
I did it to have an interesting game. Not so they wouldn't suspect me if I was scum...BM wrote: Because you do. Don't pretend it isn't the case. I figured that was the main benefit to inviting half the playerlist here-they all have some kind of association to you.
I can see why you'd say I've buddied with Camn, but why Sens? Because I don't like your vote on him?alexhans wrote: The whole buddying thing is losing strenght... Yeah, I'm buddying GIEFF and mastin according to everyone. Camn and KMD buddie themselves. KMD buddies SensFan. Sensfan buddies KMD, Camn and BM. Zach has buddied BM IIRC. Now BM buddies GIEFF.
Wait, am I missing something here? Why do you and Mastin have to be scum for GIEFF to be scum?Alex wrote: BM voted GIEFF even though he said that at least one fo Mastin and I were town.
If the buddy brigade is people who knew Alex before the game, I'm part of it. I IC'd a newb game that Alex played. And I saw him again in Mafia 91. And I played in the Zwet game that Alex modded in Mish Mash.Battle Mage wrote:
it looks like:GIEFF wrote:Battle Mage - who is in the buddy brigade?
Alex, Mastin, Hasdgfas, VP Baltar, Kairyuu
maybe: Debonair and Camn
The last 2 can confirm or deny knowing Alex before the game.
Perhaps more members lurk in the wings. Haha, this is like mafia within mafia.
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Well it's why I thought you were scum and.. you were. =/camn wrote:My scumhunting was genuine in that game, too. . . We knew there were two groups.
2-scumgroup games twist scum meta.
*lurkers-lately, she just isn't.GIEFF wrote:KMD, I am shocked to see that your points about camn in the game you linked seem quite similar to my own.
- Not as hard on lurkers.
- Not as ridiculously pro-town.
- Changing her mind rapidly on who she suspects.
- Setting herself up to look protown.
- "Lazy" votes that she doesn't come back to.
- Suspecting people without really saying why.
*not ridiculously protown- why?
*changing her mind rapidly- where?
*setting herself up-where?
*lazy votes-where?
*suspecting people without giving reasons-where?
No, because my read on her is town.GIEFF wrote: Do you disagree that a large number of the points you used to catch camn-scum in that game apply to this game? Even if just 2 or 3 of them apply, shouldn't that be enough to move camn out of your "obvtown" list?
Ok. This is true then.GIEFF wrote:Also, I never said you voted for me because I was hypocritical. I said you were HAPPY with your vote for me because I was hypocritical.
I've given plenty of reasons. Here, let me view myself in ISO and summarize what I've given:GIEFF wrote:I just wanted to be clear that your vote with me is without reason. So when people demanding reasoning from others IGNORE your vote, then THEY are the ones being inconsistent.
-gut read
-stretched Camn's promise not to kill me by twisting her words to say she wouldn't lynch me
-kept asking about Camn's OMGUS with no intention of changing his opinion or any expectations that she'd change her answer
-pushing points JUST to make sure people see them
-Calls out appeal to emotion where it isn't there
-hypocracy
-crap case in post 398
-misrepping me by saying I don't understand the case
-bad argument about quote pyramidsKMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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Witholding reasons is fine as long as they come out eventually.camn wrote: I don't read KMD as thinking withholding reasons is scummy.. but more that NOT HAVING REASONS AT ALL is scummy, no?
Nope. I try to lay a serious vote as early as possible.Camn wrote:ALSO.. I don't think forming a NON random vote in the RVS is "lazy", do you KMD?KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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They don't seem to be.camn wrote:So, it seems Bnmage's quotes really are NOT answers to your questions.. right KMD?
Don't you think he is town though? What was the initial reasoning?camn wrote: My initial reasoning on GIEFF STILL STANDS. I think he is probably too dangerous to have in endgame.KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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Are you saying you intentionally left it out to prove your point?Benmage wrote:You do “confirm” the vote on Gieff later. Which is good, but in my opinion that confirmation vote had weak reasoning in itself, but I left that out because it didn’t really relate to what I was pointing out for KmD.
I wouldn't lynch him for either reason.camn wrote:@KMD:
Initially it was that his scum-game was too good to let him live.
Now, additionally, it is that his TOWN-game is too POOR for him to be reliable in endgame.
That's fair.Camn wrote:Essentially, I wold rather lynch a 70%townie that I think will mislynch in ENDGAME, than a 60%townie that I think will vote correct.KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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GIEFF:
Again, your sufficient-er case on Camn looks more like Camn being Camn more than Camn being scum.
You've done everything in my case. If you feel otherwise, say so. I'll show you where it was.
Yes, I know most of that came after my vote. Does that make it less scummy?
Yeah, I put the quote pyramid thing on there as a joke. XDKMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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But you were aware of later backing which makes the vote you quoted less lazy/poor.Benmage wrote:
No, because it wasn't related to the question at hand. Wherein I was merely illustrating a history of examples of lazy/poor votes or whatever it was that gieff stated.Kmd4390 wrote:
Are you saying you intentionally left it out to prove your point?Benmage wrote:You do “confirm” the vote on Gieff later. Which is good, but in my opinion that confirmation vote had weak reasoning in itself, but I left that out because it didn’t really relate to what I was pointing out for KmD.KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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Actually, they'd jump on the Mastin wagon.camn wrote: Objectively, I would think (via the KMD Gambit) that scum would jump on a crap-case on a townie...... especially if it was presented well... so I could be scum.
Of course, if YOU are scum, and part of a 2-man team.. then that obviously WOULDN'T happen.
Can't argue with that logic.camn wrote:@KMD
Ah, but II wouldn't lynch him for either reason.WOULD
That is what make me fun!
Yeah, that would be what I said.Benmage wrote:
You mean future backing?Kmd4390 wrote: But you were aware of later backing which makes the vote you quoted less lazy/poor.
Regardless it is one of several examples. In addition I was giving her the benefit of the doubt in that case. Because Although she returns to it, and "re-affirms her vote" giving a reason.. The reason is so shitty that you could add 'crap-cases' to the list of lazy/poor votes.
There is a huge difference between a crap case and a lazy vote. You are changing which you call it just because I am now aware of the situation.KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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Works for me. I refuse to vote Camn today unless something pretty much proves she is scum, which I don't see happening, especially in an all vanilla game.VP Baltar wrote:ATTENTION TOWN: WE'RE NOT LYNCHING CAMN TODAY.
Unvote, Vote AlexhansKMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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What a Brilliant Man.Battle Mage wrote:
Ooh, if only i had your aptitude with acronyms, you...Virgin Prick.VP Baltar wrote:ATTENTION TOWN: WE'RE NOT LYNCHING CAMN TODAY.
More votes on people who are actually scum: Alex, Mastin or Bowel Movements.
I'll address the rest of this crap later.
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Mostly because there is no strong case against her and she seems to be getting attacked for being Camn, not being scum. And my initial gut read on her was town to begin with.Battle Mage wrote:
why so adamant that Camn is town?Kmd4390 wrote:
Works for me. I refuse to vote Camn today unless something pretty much proves she is scum, which I don't see happening, especially in an all vanilla game.VP Baltar wrote:ATTENTION TOWN: WE'RE NOT LYNCHING CAMN TODAY.
Unvote, Vote Alexhans
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I've read from the point I came in. I thought about what I read. I decided I still think she's town.GIEFF wrote:As I said, KMD.
Please try again with fresh eyes tomorrow. Don't start defending her like crazy until you read, digest, think, and decide for yourself.KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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She's self-voting because she gave her vote to Benmage. The fact that she kept this up after he voted her only makes her more town IMO.Battle Mage wrote:
She's self voting. She lacks confidence in her own ability to argue. She has dramatic changes of stance that i havent seen from her before as town.Kmd4390 wrote:
Mostly because there is no strong case against her and she seems to be getting attacked for being Camn, not being scum. And my initial gut read on her was town to begin with.Battle Mage wrote:
why so adamant that Camn is town?Kmd4390 wrote:
Works for me. I refuse to vote Camn today unless something pretty much proves she is scum, which I don't see happening, especially in an all vanilla game.VP Baltar wrote:ATTENTION TOWN: WE'RE NOT LYNCHING CAMN TODAY.
Unvote, Vote Alexhans
BM
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No. Not protown. But a town tell.GIEFF wrote:KMD, I don't want to get dragged back into a camn-quote-war.
But are you really arguing that tying your vote to a player you find scummy and self-voting is PRO-TOWN?
I agree.Battle Mage wrote:Benmage voting Camn with the proxy is a towntell from my PoV.
BM
He was pretty good scum in a newbie game I IC'd.. I caught his IC-scumbuddy Day 1 and thought he (VP) was obvtown.Battle Mage wrote:pah, VP is probably town, according to meta. He was absolutely abysmal in Mafia 91-not even pretending to scumhunt. In a game of his as town, he played quite alot like he is here-analysing in depth, and not attempting to appease people, or make silly jokes.
So ReVote: Camn
BM
Unvote, Vote Mastinbecause it's become an "either Mastin or Camn" kind of situation here.KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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I'd be fine with it, but the day needs to end and Mastin actually has votes.Benmage wrote:@Spryex, jammer, zach, sensfan, battle mage, and kmd
How do you guys feel about lynching Gieff today? You've all previously voted him.
He might be bussing. Not sure. But on Day 1 with no flips, I lynch for scumminess over connections.alexhans wrote:@KMD: I fail to see why you would agree with your top suspect to lynch the other suspect... Do you think GIEFF is bussing me?KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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Take out Benmage and I pretty much agree with this post completely.SensFan wrote:Christ, guys. Stop spamming this thread, and let's agree on a fucking lynch.
Mastin or Alex should be lynched.
Jammer and Benmage lynches would be fine as well.
People who aren't named's lynch wouldn't affect this game, since they aren't posting. They probably shouldn't be lynched, but its better than nothing.
Perhaps surprisingly, I don't like a GIEFF lynch anymore, but will support if if needed.
I will only vote BM/Camn/KMD/Sens at a deadline, to avoid a No Lynch.KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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Ok, I tried using GIEFF's and Zach's, but I'm doing this my way.
End of Day 1 VC wrote:(8): Debonair Danny DiPietro,Mastin, Kmd4390, Zachrulez, SpyreX, GIEFF, Benmage,VP Baltarcamn
Battle Mage (2):, alexhansMastin
alexhans (1): Battle Mage
Not Voting:, blackcatcontract, SensFan, jammerCephrir
I agree with Zach we can find at least one scum on each lynch.End of Day 2 VC wrote:(7): Debonair Danny DiPietro, Benmage, jammer, SpyreX, Zachrulez,Cephrir, SensFancamn
blackcatcontract (2): GIEFF, alexhans
Benmage (1):
GIEFF (1): Kmd4390
Zachrulez (1): Battle Mage
Not Voting:, blackcatcontractCephrir
DDD, myself, Zach, Spy, GIEFF, and Benmage were on the Mastin lynch. 1-2 scum here. I personally can eliminate myself. I have a town read on Benmage. DDD, Zach, Spy, GIEFF contains 1-2 scum.
Alex and BM were voting each other end of Day 1. I usually say one scum is voting off the wagon. Possible, but two townies voting each other is also common. Gonna have to call this null I guess as lame as that is.
I also say a scum didn't vote. Black, Sens, and Jammer. Black was catching up, but did have time, so he's included.
So from Day 1, let's say 2 scum in DDD/Zach/Spy/GIEFF/Benmage (edited in. see Day 2), one in Alex/BM, and one in Black/Sens/Jammer.
Day 2:
DDD, Benmage, Jammer, Spy, Zach, and Sens on the lynch. Town read on Benmage, although him being on both wagons kind of lessens that. Ok, let me edit Benmage back into the Mastin-lynch group.
GIEFF/Alex/BM were on other wagons. If someone was off of both lynches, but voting, I usually pick them as scum who plays by avoiding being on mislynches. BM fits this. Hmm. So does Alex. Maybe it's even plausible that they were distancing Day 1. The kind of player Mastin is though, I doubt only one scum voted him. So I expect two on Mastin's lynch IF BM and Alex are scum. That makes Black, Sens, and Jammer more likely town IF BM or Alex is scum.
Then again, GIEFF was on the Mastin lynch, but not Ceph. Black, again, wasn't voting.
K, who do I think is scum?
Black
Zach
GIEFF
Alex
BM
Jammer
^4 of those 6 are scum. If Alex and BM are BOTH scum, take Jammer off this list. I'm thinking it's more likely that only one is scum.
Unvote, Vote blackcatcontractKMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare-
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