Mafia 89: Revenge (Game Over)

[mykonian]

Great, I'll be rereading now.

[mykonian]

unvote

. Just in case.

[mykonian]

now, while being halfway the game, I would support a lowell-lynch. Defending azrael that way is a scummy move.

[mykonian]

super-active! I've got a lot of spare time, and you'll see me here a lot.
KoC, would you have to be replaced? Could be good for the mod to know.

Votecount:
Santos - 4 (ahaad, q21, Shanba, BridgesAndBaloons)
MonkeyMan576 - 4 (Sun Tzu, kuribo, Light-kun, Lowell)
Knight of Cydonia - 3 (farside22, MonkeyMan576, Santos)
Lowell - 3 (super random dude, Knight of Cydonia, armlx)
killa seven - 1 (Jebus)
Not voting: johhan, mykonian, killa seven, PerArdua, alvinz95, BridgesAndBaloons, -TinVision-, Azrael001
With 22 alive, it's 12 to lynch.

[mykonian]

Monkeyman moved to first spot for scumminesh.

unvote vote monkeyman

See below why.

I´m around page 11. I know, it goes slow. Now and tomorrow I´ll be back with you.

Kuribo is town, I feel. Monkeyman would be my scum if I went for my gut. Lowell could be scum, but is annoying at best: nothing wrong with wanting to destroying cases, but give reasons, give me something to work with. Make cases yourself too because now you are just an active lurker that calls everybody town. It doesn't help.

post 283: here I started

post 311: armlx is spot on in the next post.

post 317: subjectively posts that he is scumhunting. You don't say you are scumhunting, you do it, and we say it.

post 323: and gives up. Fine, why haven't we got a lynch on page 13?

post 341: and tells us again he is scumhunting.

post 363: lowell feels the need to join te bandwagon, and admits he is doing it.

post 369: Santos wants to go to night, hasn't seen all the action around monkey, and doesn't care who the lynch is. I found scum!

post 378: monkey hops on the other bandwagon, saving his life or something.

post 417: we should policyvig santos for this rubbish.

vigkill: santos

This plus the obvious looking for powerroles is more then enough to just lynch monkey. Now if everybody could come here and vote...


YAY!, I made it!

[mykonian]

santos, don't worry. If there is a vig, I don't want him to miss that statement. In stead of wasting a lynch on you tomorrow, I would rather see you be killed tonight.

[mykonian]

I feel santos is rolefishing: stop it. I'll vote you tomorrow anyway.

[mykonian]

I feel santos is rolefishing: stop it. I'll vote you tomorrow anyway.

I lol'ed. That's weak. Many better things to accuse Santos of.

true, I mentioned a few of them, and that's also why I would love the vig to kill santos

[mykonian]

how would you call that fishing? I don't want to know who it is, I don't want to know if there is any, but if there is, I would greatly appreciate it if santos was killed. Saves me the bother of having to lynch him tomorrow.

Personally I call it fishing when someone ask you twice if you have a certain role.

[mykonian]

no: If I don't know who the vig is, why would mafia do? and how would a roleblocker be usefull? if there was a mafia doctor, yes, then this would be a bad play, but that role is hardly considered normal isn't it?

And seen what the votes are, and the reactions to that post, there are at least 5 people that would like to see santos be killed. the three votes, armlx, and me. I certainly want to lynch monkeyman, and a vig-kill on santos would only save us a lynch, nothing more, nothing less. On the moment a vig-kill becomes just as usefull as a lynch, you got to shoot.

So yes, I'm directing a vig, if there is one. And maybe I set up an vig-fakeclaim for a SK (me, or some other person), but even if it was the sk that killed, I wouldn't care, because the killing would be protown.

[mykonian]

and it is quite a good role to fakeclaim...

[mykonian]

thereby outing a powerrole... brilliant.

[mykonian]

I'm sorry, but I was so sure you were scum. I'm a bit sceptical, that's all. My second man got modkilled, and again it seems I don't have the right person as scum.

unvote

Votecount:
MonkeyMan576 - 5 (Sun Tzu, kuribo, Lowell, Knight of Cydonia, magisterrain)
Lowell - 4 (super random dude, armlx, MonkeyMan576, Vi)
Knight of Cydonia - 1 (Kmd4390)
killa seven - 1 (Jebus)
Not voting: killa seven, PerArdua, alvinz95, -TinVision-, ahaad, Shanba, BridgesAndBaloons, Light-kun, Azrael001, mykonian
With 21 alive, it's 11 to lynch.

[mykonian]

I would think Lowell is the obvious scum at this point.

probably, yes. He is unhelpful. He defends without giving good reason.

Yet people defend him with meta, and he is plain unreadable. I'm a little unconfortable with a lurker-lynch.

and armlx: I hope you don't want me to stay on monkey, do you? I had the feeling it was a good fakeclaim, and I was sure monkey was scum.

but it is a little useless to lynch an un-cc'ed watcher, isn't it?

[mykonian]

It's a personal attack on my play style

is it a personal attack, or is an attack on your playstyle?

and how can this sentence be logically determined, as it is more an observation? Lowell makes just as good an argument as when you accused him with meta-arguments.

[mykonian]

Yay, Lowell attacks someone. That is something new!

Now, if you also gave something more then onliners to explain your actions, we would all be very happy...

[mykonian]

FOSs

for

kuribo

and

mykonian

. Kuribo has been shockingly adept at avoiding everything. Post 488 in particular rubs me the wrong way, as does 354 when added to everything else. mykonian is harder to nail down, but something about his playstyle doesn't sit well with me. It's almost like hasn't earned the pateralism he's displaying.

if I display that, then indeed, I didn't earn it. Maybe I stated my idea's about the game, and what I read here and there too much as the absolute truth. But it is your job to question that.

Lately I feel like he's the narrator more than a player in this game.

Lately, I feel mykonian is a little inactive. I also feel he has no target, and he is has to reread before he can say anything, as his two targets are not available anymore

bolded is mine.

[mykonian]

I thought it too hard to quote it in two parts.

[mykonian]

Guys, you should have me prodded. I don't like to be a lurker.

Reread what I missed, and magisterrain is quite acting as caught scum.

MP is bad towny, or scum playing a bad towny. Let's wait that out.

Lowell is (and I know someone else should say this) a bit gone, and has twice tried to make us think with telling us who voted for who, that he is actively scumhunting.

Yosarian is waiting for the deadline, or he has problems to read oneliners fast. Really, the pages aren't that hard. I'll be watching you.

Does anyone want a series of quotes why magis should go? Wait, I'll just do it next post.

and yes, too many people are missing. attack me for this, but I have the feeling this day has given enough anti-town players, and there is no use to make it drag on a lot longer.

[mykonian]

i have to say ive had a change of opinion. i kind of overreacted to KoC and didnt really see where he was coming from. i also let a lot of monkey's comments slide. after taking the time to read the thread more carefully, i

unvote, vote monkey

hop on the bandwagon.

yikes, seems people have been attacking me while ive been gone.
i need to do some serious catching up on this game.
for now,

unvote monkey

if only b/c at the moment i can't even remember why i voted for him

and hop off.

vote armlx

for trying to deflect suspicion and look pro town by invoking lowell's meta in order to prove him guilty

what do you say armlx?

by the way, you people who think i am scum are wrong.
i may have been hasty and made some rather poor decisions but i am certain one of you who is after me is scum.

and although i have a vote on armlx, i still think the following deserve at the very least

PoS: lowell(inconsistent play; condescension; liking short days; defending mafiaplayer;) mafia player (uh, either he's crazy or he's scum)

It is only usefull for scum to say you are town. And lets OMGUS FoS everyone that is on you...

only because it seems pretty clear to me that my actions in this game haven't been the most well thought out.
i suppose i really did speak too strongly.
especially since i havent even heard anything from about half of the people in this game. i guess its very likely one or more of them is scum.
idk. this game is not making much sense right now.

Is "oh, I'm confused" a scumtell here? I think it is. And lets backtrack all his statements

i dont know, but i kinda have a strong feeling mafiaplayer is a cop

Scumbuddy? It is at least never protown.

i am 'nilla townie

trying to move this game along in an unconventional way

and seeing how people react

people around here are too used to the way games 'should' go and to 'textbook' scumtells

bad defence. Let's attack the scumtells they use against me. Oh, and lets claim too.

and lets deflect to the attention to the lurkers: alvinz, K7, Jebus. I'm not going to quote, too long.

unvote, vote bridges and baloons

i will show why later.

It was not in the next post... It probably was for lurking. It doesn't help.

kuribo, you're getting dangerously close to crossing a line with your insults. dont make the mod kill another townie(which im pretty sure is what you are)

btw, i am saying we should handle the lurkers..i would like the mod to replace them.

armlx, why are you so certain of lowell? i will show later why he is prob not scum.
meanwhile, don't think i have completely let my eye off you.

Don't threaten people like that. You can ask politely... You have information why lowell is not scum: give it please.

Or, I'll just

unvote vote magisterrain

[mykonian]

Okay, I've come to my senses.

Unvote, Vote Magisterrain

Seriously... no-one but scum would defend such horrible posts as my earlier ones.

You know this doesn't help you, do you?

[mykonian]

ok, people. just know that at least one mafia has a vote on me RIGHT NOW. probably two.

You've counted them? The amount of partners bussing you... unfair isn't it?

[mykonian]

closer to a claim we can hardly get, isn't it?

[mykonian]

if i die, my side can still win. why would i sabotage my side?

armlx, can a town players say this?

[mykonian]

But when he said that, how could he sabotage the town side? That bit makes no sense. When you are being lynched, how can you sabotage town? You can sabotage scum...

So BS is a big word here.

[mykonian]

I thought it a confession he was scum, you talk from the view he is defending himself poorly.

I tried to show how only scum could make this statement, as it couldn't be said by town.

[mykonian]

But when he said that, how could he sabotage the town side? That bit makes no sense. When you are being lynched, how can you sabotage town? You can sabotage scum...

there is no way a vanilla towny can sabotage his side. Scum can.

so it is the second part of the statement that would tell me he is scum, not the first part you want to argue about.

[mykonian]

ok, town can not intentionally sabotage the town when being at L-2 (or something)

[mykonian]

lol.

the sentence doens't make sense coming from town, that's what I say! Town can't sabotage in such a situation. That's why I said it looked like a scumtell. You almost understand what I think.

[mykonian]

before you bring him on idea's, could we lynch him?

and/or could we stop playing a mini normal? To no one in person, but a bit more activity could be fun.

[mykonian]

6 persons on this page. One scum is still rereading and uses that as excuse to not react on the play (yes, I know, paranoid...). One hops on the bandwagon that is likely to be the lynch. And magis pointed nicely out how a few players are lurking...

[mykonian]

Kmd must have had a protown look, and some people didn't want a claimed tracker alive

lucky for us, he was scum. two scum-groups would be my guess.

I'm going to reread... again.

[mykonian]

ok, you want my guesses in complete

scumgroup 1 killed protown player (KMD)
scumgroup 2 killed "watcher"

and there was a last kill, that could be from Vig/SK.

So that's why I said KMD must have looked protown. Not that it matters, just my opinion.

[mykonian]

I'm not completely sure we have a vig, although it is the most reasonable explanation.

and I'm sorry, last few days I can't get my head to rereading this, so I'll make the promise here that I'll do it tonight. That way I have too.

[mykonian]

ok, I got to page 12 now. I am beginning to tire now, so I think I won't find a lot more.

While I liked KoC before, I'm not so sure anymore. Also what TV is doing. The only thing that keeps me from voting them, is that the nightkills don't make sense that way.

Lowell is annoying, and most likely scum. Light-kun could easily be his partner.

and then mafiaplayer. That was the person I wanted to lynch before I began to reread.

I hope I can get some evidence up to show you what I'm thinking.

Votecount:
Lowell - 3 (armlx, Knight of Cydonia, Shanba)
Light-kun - 1 (CF Riot)
Vi - 1 (Light-kun)
armlx - 1 (popsofctown)
Mafiaplayer - 1 (Yosarian2)
Not voting: Vi, alvinz95, -TinVision, Sun Tzu, mykonian, Lowell, BridgesAndBaloons, Azrael001, Mafiaplayer, kuribo

With 17 alive, it's 9 to lynch.

[mykonian]

I still believe Lowell is town. A very annoying one, but still town. Mostly his actions and Monkey wouldn´t point at one scumteam.

Point is, that he was very right about Santos, and I think also about azrael. I don´t know about that.

Post: 351 Light-kun busses monkey very well, or he is not a buddy. I think the last.

Wow, KoC and Lowell are voting for me. Two of the people I pointed out as being anti-town. That should tell you something.

Liar. I was voting Lowell when you posted this.
But hey, let me make it easier - Lynch All Liars.

unvote; Vote MonkeyMan576

for deliberately falsely accusing me of an OMGUS vote.

Suddenly you don't need evidence anymore: you were right, but screaming LAL doesn't get us far, does it? And you are so clear that he tried to mislynch you.

The emphasis on the word town in the above post plus the fact watcher/tracker is a scumable role makes me wary. Still want more Lowell lynch.

towny

Personally, I haven't seen a scum watcher, but after looking in the wiki, it is possible...
Hm...

I still feel you're scummy enough to lynch, but I don't think it is worth it, yet.

Um.... hm.drum...

I am gonna randomly

Unvote

because his role could be useful enough to town to warrant his life for the day. Lest, anyone has proof to the contrary of my thoughts?

and not quite town... But also not buddy.

I would think Lowell is the obvious scum at this point.

after the claim was bought by people. Lowell is save first.

Vote:Monkeyman576

for now. All the Mafia can't be on that lynch, there are 5 voting... and I've never seen a Mafia that big.

trying to lynch the "watcher"?

Unvote, Vote:Lowell.

With the unvoting of our last target, that's are new target. Hopefully we can lynch him.

Lowell goes after Kuribo in post 541, defends mafiaplayer (surprising...)

Unvote, Vote:Lowell.

With the unvoting of our last target, that's are new target. Hopefully we can lynch him.

Unvote
Vote: Mafiaplayer

Apart from his scumminess, I don't think I could put up with him for a whole game.

Page 26 now: I really want mafiaplayer to be gone, I think I like him lynched.

[mykonian]

mykonian wrote:

Light-kun post 466 wrote:
Personally, I haven't seen a scum watcher, but after looking in the wiki, it is possible...
Hm...

I still feel you're scummy enough to lynch, but I don't think it is worth it, yet.

Um.... hm.drum...

I am gonna randomly Unvote because his role could be useful enough to town to warrant his life for the day. Lest, anyone has proof to the contrary of my thoughts?


and not quite town... But also not buddy.


At least attacking me for serial killer is slightly more sensible. Still, just to point this out: Townies do not have a job of looking townie. That isn't the point of their role. Their role is to find scum, not worry about how townie they look.

I'm more concerned with the keeping the option open to vote him, and not really choosing. And thank you for implying that you are town.

I think a lynch is better, because: It will work, no matter what RB's do, After the previous kill, I think I like the vig, so I don't worry that he would pick a wrong target. Also, he can use the information we get from MP's lynch, to pick better.

[mykonian]

As much as i don't like armlx right now, he's right. Mafia doctors are sufficiently rare that he doesn't need to mention that. The best proof we don't have a mafia doctor in this game is probably MonkeyMan's corpse.

I think a lynch is better, because: It will work, no matter what RB's do, After the previous kill, I think I like the vig, so I don't worry that he would pick a wrong target. Also, he can use the information we get from MP's lynch, to pick better.

How is the info from MP's lynch a pro? It's such a cut-and-dry case of incorrectly guessing protocol that scum are going to be bussing just as consistently as townies are voting. (even worse, the players' own experience with different mods might be a sort of bias). Any other lynch would give the mod more info.

The vig killed Killa 7 as a policy vigging. (we assume.. i think it's a very safe assumption). That doesn't show he can read people really well, it just shows he can remove lurkers from the game. Which was a good thing, who knew he was a cop, but it doesn't mean we should expect whoever to be smart enough to zero in on scum tonight.

To me, lynching MP today is like saying, "We can't figure out any scum besides MP between the 17 of us, but we expect to vig to. Good luck with that."

You are surprisingly sure that MP is scum. And I agree with policy vigging.

May I ask you, what is the big problem with this? Why did you attack armlx when he moved to this? You are acting strange.

[mykonian]

If he is scum, he's quite likely to be a mafia role blocker, isn't he?

In that scenerio, isn't there a clear advantage to killing him today, rather then giving him another night to act?

Yes, well done. this has nothing to do with claiming cop, armlx.

vote mafiaplayer

Its a bit weird how KoC is away, like tinvision. also I don't like the recent aggressiveness of pops.

[mykonian]

No, I'm sorry, I can't say the "shall we lynch or shall we vig MP?" discussion is really interesting, and since Lowell isn't here, you can't talk about him.

what do you think about pops? Do you agree with my view on that?

sorry, I'm not that creative anymore. Goodnight.

[mykonian]

KoC may have a point:

Lowell manages to post:a bandwagon vote, a to town fallacy, a "bandwagon FoS" (if that exists), and a conspiracy theory (nothing wrong with that, as long as you show us the other possible ways it can be explained) in one post, with a useless amount of things that only show he has found all the votes in the last 350 posts...

[mykonian]

or we can hereby express the need for a vig-kill on lowell, without a possible mafia-roleblocker in play, and without any doc on lowell. After this previous mass-FoS, that sometimes really made no sense, I think I can agree with a lowell kill.

Just as easy, only not a formal lynch. You just have to get everybody to react on this.

[mykonian]

or we can hereby express the need for a vig-kill on lowell, without a possible mafia-roleblocker in play, and without any doc on lowell. After this previous mass-FoS, that sometimes really made no sense, I think I can agree with a lowell kill.

Just as easy, only not a formal lynch. You just have to get everybody to react on this.

Yeah? The problem with deciding to get the vig to kill someone is that they don't always listen to you. They are a player, a person, and they may view the game differently to you. I can be fairly certain that they'll kill MP if we don't lynch him

because everyone thinks he is scum.

The same cannot be said of Lowell.

TCS, the point of that was not to say that he

is

scum. The point was that that means that the vig is very likely to believe he is scum, and therefore very likely to kill him.

I think the vig has showed that he will shoot less usefull people: if that is Lowell or MP doesn't matter. I see no big advantage in lynching lowell. The discussion you want can come here if we talk about vigging here.

[mykonian]

shanba at least reasons, tries to convince us of things. No wonder that, if he seems right, people agree with him.

[mykonian]

kuribo makes a lot of sense to me in this game.

and the monkeyman-KoC thing: if there are 2 different scumgroups, he could still be scum.

[mykonian]

I thought this way.

Let's assume we have at least one mafia group. We have a pretty large game. What would be a fair setup, that also would explain 3 nightkills?

I thought a SK would be a little unfair, being on his own, against a big number from the mafia. That's why I thought the kills should have been made by vig's and mafia. Two of the kills were antitown, one protown.

Votecount:
Mafiaplayer - 5 (Yosarian2, mykonian, Light-kun, CF Riot, Lowell)
Lowell - 3 (armlx, Knight of Cydonia, Shanba)
mykonian - 1 (Vi)
Not voting: Alabaska J, The Central Scrutinizer, Sun Tzu, BridgesAndBaloons, Azrael001, Mafiaplayer, kuribo, popsofctown

With 17 alive, it's 9 to lynch.

[mykonian]

@myko & KoC- I'm having trouble thinking of a pro-town reason you care about this.

when there is a SK, you have to look for other things then a scumgroup. Seems important.

[mykonian]

@myko & KoC- I'm having trouble thinking of a pro-town reason you care about this.

I agree with this statement, and I'm not sure why KoC lashed back at it.

Based on MonkeyMan's flip I see no reason to believe there are two Mafia families, and I don't see a reason to worry over how possible it is.

mykonian is continuing to contribute to the Town's success [/sarcasm] by attempting to outguess the setup. Why am I the only person voting him.

why use the fact that KoC and MM had a big discussion (more then distancing) as a defence of KoC when nothing tells us he can't be a bad guy, simply not on MM's team. But I'll stop saying such things if it really hurts town. I don't yet see how it is very bad what I said.

[mykonian]

ok, VI, I won't do it anymore. I have also not agreed with a KoC lynch. I prefered a mafiaplayer lynch, and see what we would get from that. I only said that we need more then a lot of attacks between KoC and MM to stop suspecting KoC. I just don't like that idea.

[mykonian]

sorry, Vi, I think I know what you are offended with, and I assure you, it was accidental. Really, I wouldn't, with nobody, just insult them for nothing. I'll try not to do it again.

and Lowell, you are proving a point to some people. Little bit more care with your play wouldn't be bad. Vi gives me the option to defend, you just vote the person that is latest in the attention. That's why Vi is more protown then you are.

[mykonian]

This will be my last post tonight.

I can see you think Light-kun scummy. I just don't see the reason you give there. I thought the actions of him around azrael/lowell (the copclaim thing) were scummy. What you give here can sometimes hardly been called a scumtell.

I don't think armlx deserves a lot of attention. He has been quite protown in my eyes.

I don't think I fully agree with your opinion on KoC. Maybe just because I don't know his play very well, but I feel that there is something wrong with it, but I can't really find what.

and then what you post about me. I won't react on the outguess the setup thing, I have done that allready. And I did do something wrong with lowell, because from the start, I told myself I wouldn't go after him (he is always like that and so), and I agreed with him that azrael was not likely to be scum. I think 825 was short after my reread, and then one post of Lowell was so weird: he called two people town (azrael and ?), and one of them proved to be.

and you are not going to lynch me because of a grammar mistake with MM fakeclaim, do you? I think I have been pretty clear there: I didn't trust the claim, because to test it, you have to out a protown powerrole. I was told it was a bad claim to make: so I unvoted. I had my doubts on the claim, would I have had that while I thought MM was town?

[mykonian]

and you are not going to lynch me because of a grammar mistake with MM fakeclaim, do you?

Of all the times for me to be without a Grammar Nazi image...

So you say my opinions are wrong. I'm not impressed enough to change my mind. Who do you suspect? (aside from KoC)

I still think I've caught mykonian contradicting himself, but I don't have significant misgivings about voting Light-kun or TCS.

Unvote: mykonian
Vote: Light-kun

(L-8)
Not a joke vote, neither lighthearted nor no serious.

You caught me in the Lowell business. I can't explain why I changed on him. But with MM, it was grammar. You can see by the post around it what my thoughts were, that I actually thought it a fakeclaim, and that I was assured that it was not a very conveniant one.

Scummy people: KoC is not high on my scumlist. Like I said, it is gut, and I can't find why.

If KoC is scum, I would look at tinvision/replacement. When, I thought, KoC got his fifth vote, tinvision started a nice (and working) chainsaw defence. But for the rest, close to no read there.

first on my scumlist is mafiaplayer. I suspect a mafia roleblocker there.

I think I have posted what my feelings about Lowell are, and I don't quite know how to act on it. On one side he is extremely scummy, on the other side, I think he had a good call on azrael, and then we have his meta. and armlx's...

pops deserves some attention from me, but I haven't yet started there.

Light-kun: the recent action against him seems a little weak. The way he played around Lowell and azrael was a bit weird, and he has been a bit hard to place. I think it is not enough to vote him now.

[mykonian]

EBWOP: I didn't really read what you said about LK. Would have to check how that looks.

[mykonian]

I was prepared to vote for light based off of the weird

"so and so didn't vote for that guy."
"Yes he did"
"I know"

thing.

obvious scumtell?

[mykonian]

azrael: it is better to get the whole town on a higher level of play, accomplishes the same.

(and that is why people like Lowell are highly annoying. You have no read on them, and they have a nasty way of staying in the game). So I would be much more happy if you allowed us to get a read on you, and went for a good town play. I have thought about this too, but it simply doesn't work like that. Lynching scum is simply more effective that not being nightkilled (for the simple reason that someone else will be NK'ed).

[mykonian]

Apparently sub-par play is a scum tell now... Mediocre play is the best way to survive. You generate enough suspicion that the anti-town factions don't use their kill on you, and you don't generate enough suspicion to get lynched. I hate to pull a Lowell, but "I'm playing on a level that you can't comprehend." [/sarcasm]

...you know, we could just lynch this guy instead of mafiaplayer. That'd be fine.

#1: "Sub-par play" (IE: Play that is not especally pro-town) IS a scum tell. Pretty much by definition
#2: Ugh. If you're a townie, worrying about not getting night-killed is incredibly stupid. The scum kill someone every night, unless some town power role gets really lucky; trying to make sure it's some other pro-town dude who gets killed instead of you is pointless.

and #3: The whole "Yeah, I'm being scummy, but I'm doing it on purpose because that way the scum won't kill me" defense always, always, always makes me want to lynch the guy who's doing it.

the fact that he admits it means he is open to discussion about it. He thinks it is right to do. It is better to keep him here, he can still improve.

[mykonian]

#1: "Sub-par play" (IE: Play that is not especally pro-town) IS a scum tell. Pretty much by definition

Bullshit! No! NO! NO! What is possibly a scumtell is playing less well than

you

can. Hence why you have to adjust your scumdar for idiots - an idiot isn't going to break the game for the town, and probably wont even try. But if a good player is not trying to break the game in a situation where it looks like he could, well, then that's probably a scumtell.

telling yourself that you are doing it is not a scumtell. We can then tell you to stop it .

[mykonian]

after thinking it over, I think I still want a MP lynch. assuming there are two roles that could kill him, and only one that would gain something from it (be it SK or Vig, I don't care). I also think it likely that MP is scum-roleblocker.

Then, he would have 1/16 chance of stopping the kill at him. That is 1/16 to much.
he would also have 1/16 chance of stopping an antitown kill, that is positive.
and he would have x/16 chance of stopping a protown powerrole.

that means, when at least x isn't 0, we expect MP to have an antitown effect on the play.

[mykonian]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 02&start=0

Light, is this the one you're talking about?

armlx, metas are pointless.

If meta was pointless, you would be sure to be lynched after mafiaplayer.

only meta keeps some people from voting you.

Votecount:
Mafiaplayer - 4 (Yosarian2, mykonian, Light-kun, CF Riot)
Lowell - 3 (armlx, Knight of Cydonia, Shanba)
Light-kun - 2 (Vi, popsofctown)
mykonian - 1 (Lowell)
Not voting: Alabaska J, The Central Scrutinizer, Sun Tzu, BridgesAndBaloons, Mafiaplayer, kuribo, Azrael001

With 17 alive, it's 9 to lynch.

[mykonian]

I don't know what

myko

is playing at. His behavior has been to say "lowell is scummy, lowell is scummy, lowell is scummy, I vote MP!" for the past half-dozen pages. This is explained in 913 and defended a few posts later, but it still doesn't sit well. He trying to hard to pull forward my lynch without having to jump on the bandwagon. He wants me dead but doesn't want to do it himself.

myko doesn't want anything, as myko doesn't know if you are scum. Myko thinks your play is very antitown, but myko doesn't know if that is because you can't do any better, or because it helps you as scum. That's why myko doesn't vote yet, but would vote in case needed, to get rid of players myko cannot read. But myko doesn't know you are scum, and isn't convinced by the arguments armlx posts at the moment.

[mykonian]

like there is anything else to say about lowell. Meta kind of denies us the use of normal scumtells.

[mykonian]

Mykonian, what you don't realize is that "normal" scum tells are actually based in a large scale metagame.

I do, I just didn't think of that on that moment. I was talking more about meta on a person.

what the problem is, is that with the posts lowell makes, he is quite unreadable, that was what I meant. So nothing but meta-arguments make sense.

[mykonian]

wagoning is not normal lowell behaviour?

[mykonian]

I will see if I can give you a good answer on that question tomorrow. I'm not quite awake at the moment, and can't think clear anymore.

[mykonian]

I don´t know about pops, but there is nothing serious against him that I can find.

If I vote Lowell, it is not because I think he is scum, but because I want to save the vig the trouble to do it night 3. He is and stays just plain unreadable to me.

Light-kun's actions (around azrael and MM) are a bit weird, while for the rest he has been a "grey" player.

I don't want a KoC lynch yet, no real case against him.

[mykonian]

No, not at all. Newb A is suspected, player B defends newb A, newb A flips town. While Az hasn't flipped yet, you can see the pattern. Again, as with my meta points before, point to where you did this as town.

You never saw him do this as town? From the beginning I heard this was typical Lowell behaviour.

[mykonian]

people, to be honest, I'm loosing interest in this game. I think I've got a feeling about some players, and I think some players should be gone before lylo. I think I have been clear that a probable scum roleblocker shouldn't be given a night action. I stand by that point.

I think some people here are quite useless (including me), and part of that is because we keep going over the same things again and again. I don't think I support a LK lynch yet: he is more protown then some other players. A lowell lynch can hardly hurt (so if it is a mislynch, we don't lose too much), and the same counts for MP. But also for me, it will be close to a random lynch, just because you can barely have a read at them. The fact that you also lose little if they get lynched makes that it can be protown. When there is some suspicion on such players, I think a lynch isn't that bad.

When the day started, we wanted discussion, not too fast a lynch. MP should be vigged just for that purpose. Now discussion is stalling, people are getting bored and the game slows down. I think a MP lynch is just by numbers the best action, and what keep us from doing it? We have had our discussion, we have got out of this day what was possible, but I think we shouldn't let it take long to make a decision.

[mykonian]

Quit playing jury captain. People have made very good cases for why we should leave MP to the vig

I think I have also pointed out why I would like to lynch him, what advantages this gives us, in case he is scum. I only state that again. Those very good cases were two things as I remember: to get discussion over the lynch (we got our discussion, it is only dieing on the moment, I think), and control over the vig (he can't do anything different then killing MP).

I think playwise, it is not smart to keep a possible scum-roleblocker in the night. I also think we should lynch the person we think most likely scum, as you can start thinking from that again. I think a vig-kill is valuable even if MP is lynched.

That's what I think, and that's what I say. It is like you don't want me to say this.

[mykonian]

I think he is likely scum, especially with that jump on the CFR burgeoning wagon there,
but I would infinitely prefer that Lowell is made to dance the hemp fandango first. I'd be willing to support an MP lynch tomorrow if those on the MP wagon right now move to Lowell and lynch him today, then MP tomorrow, basically.

nobody talks about MP, and MP doesn't talk, he was scummy, he is still scummy. And you want to lynch lowell.

something isn't right there.

but I must say, I wouldn't mind them both to be gone soon.

[mykonian]

So I'm not allowed to say it, but you are, mykonian?
The only difference is I say it openly - I'm willing to lynch my second suspect tomorrow,
if the MP wagon helps me lynch my top suspect today.

I'm sorry, but "trading" votes is, well, weird. I don't know if I agree with that thought in a mafia game...

[mykonian]

Myk: Any answer for me yet? Who's the second best lynch for you? Possibly paired with MP or independent of him? Why?

That's the wrong question This one I actually answered the previous time, I have stated what I think of a few players somewhere in the last post. However, you still need to get from me why I thought LK's actions around Azraels massclaim-question weird. You'll get them. Just not when it is midnight

[mykonian]

.

someone had too show how towny he was...

[mykonian]

All I have is a whole load of vague ideas, a few supremely scummy posts (notably around MM, though as I said, I'm not sold that is was bussing.) I like armlx's meta, which Lowell hasn't refuted and which is continually being misunderstood (it's not that he's lurky - he's actually not especially. It's the defending easy lynch targets thing. Armlx has backed up this meta with an example and there have been no counterexamples.)

thank you for finally explaining what Armlx is trying to say.

[mykonian]

CF, I must say, the people that are in favor of a Lowell lynch I had a towny read on, and indeed, I don't think we lose much if we lynch Lowell.

unvote vote lowell

[mykonian]

I got my eye on you.

[mykonian]

I was trying to put it in terms of similar players who you may have a better meta sense of? I dunno.

If you don't think it's at least fairly likely MP is scum, then you're "let's vig MP" mantra would be incredibly scummy, armlx.

Its probably slightly above random. However why is a policy vig here scummy?

OH MY GOSH PEOPLE COME ON!!!

unvote

vote: armlx

Will you guys finally see how ridiculously scummy this player is?? He wants to vig someone who's scumminess is "slightly above random".

You sound like me about a page ago, and I like Yos' reasoning better than mine.

Scum, we are not going to lynch Armlx.

[mykonian]

Scum, we are not going to lynch Armlx.

^^VIG THIS PLAYER^^

Hmm... reading through the game, I notice that mykonian has been armlx's lap dog all game. We may not be lynching armlx today, but that says nothing about tomorrow.

true. But with LK, MP, and lowell still in the game, I don't see this as a viable lynch. Plus that I'd like to see what lowell comes up. Could say something about armlx, don't you think? The way LK shifts his votes around, that he went to armlx reinforces me in this thought. Like LK doesn't want a lowell lynch now...

[mykonian]

maybe I didn't understand, but I thought I did. I do have a protown feeling about armlx, that doesn't mean I'm following him everywhere. I think that didn't happen that often.

I have stated I want a Lowell lynch, because I have no read at him. I have said that armlx is not that high on my scum-list, and so is LK. That are targets for later.

armlx his average post said: let's lynch lowell. That is some heavy distancing. So, maybe there is something to get from a lowell-lynch. Not that that is the reason for the lynch of lowell, more what we can potentially gain from it if we are right.

I think the ease at which LK went with pops after pops posted suspicion about armlx was scummy. I reacted on that by telling it was scummy. I have tried to see how scum could do it, and there you get from how this "could" link LK to lowell. But WIFOM plays a big part there, and actually, lowell's lynch wouldn't tell that much about LK. It is just to show that it could be possible, not that I have to choose between lowell and LK on this moment (what would happen if two couldn't be scumbuddy's).

The only thing against armlx could be, from my viewpoint that he is acting mainly on meta. That is his choice, and I have the feeling that he does that more often (isn't it?)

Votecount:
Lowell - 8 (armlx, Shanba, Azrael001, kuribo, mykonian, CF Riot, Knight of Cydonia, popsofctown)
Mafiaplayer - 2 (Yosarian2, Vi)
kuribo - 1 (Lowell)
CF Riot - 1 (Mafiaplayer)
Not voting: Alabaska J, The Central Scrutinizer, Sun Tzu, BridgesAndBaloons, Light-kun

With 17 alive, it's 9 to lynch.

[mykonian]

Secondly, it allows you, if you are scum, to setup several lynches in a row. Things like what you did with armlx and lowell are awkward: I don't see anything that says Lowelltown means armlxscum. Actually, independent of Lowell's alignment, I'm pretty sure armlx is town. Those sorts of ideas worry me.

I only read it as saying IF Lowell is scum THEN armlx is Town.

thank you. Armlx has attacked lowell for quite some time now, I can't see them as buddies. Not that has anything to do with why I want to lynch Lowell!

I see armlx as town anyway, I think I have been quite clear in that. Lowell being town doesn't change that. Lowell being scum only confirms Armlx, in stead of having a good feeling about him. Now would you lynch Lowell for that information.

I wouldn't. I have told the reasons why I would rather lynch MP, in stead of letting the vig take care of it, but this is second best. About lowell, Personally I had no read on him, as his meta kind of protects him against that. But more then one person, that I thought protown, and that played before with him, tell us that lowell is more likely to be scum. So yes, I follow them in that.

So to restate why my vote is on lowell: I think he is not the biggest loss if it is a mislynch, but I have no read on him. The fact that protown players see him more likely to be scum makes me think that this lynch is on average good for town. There is a chance he is scum, and if he is not, we don't lose too much. Not a brilliant case. I can't make that on lowell.

and if I want to say LK is scummy, while wanting to lynch Lowell, I got to see a possibility they are both scum. If that can't be, or that is highly unlikely, I'm likely to be wrong in my statement, and I should reread to make a descision. I only stated how I could have my vote on Lowell, while also having suspicion on LK. Nothing serious, just a formality.

[mykonian]

Secondly, it allows you, if you are scum, to setup several lynches in a row. Things like what you did with armlx and lowell are awkward: I don't see anything that says Lowelltown means armlxscum. Actually, independent of Lowell's alignment, I'm pretty sure armlx is town. Those sorts of ideas worry me.

I have said nothing that could point out scum based on this lynch. So I'm not setting up lynches. What I do, is pointing out how we can get a close to confirmed town player. And how that is awkward I can't see.

You could read my possibility with lowell and LK as scum as doing this, but you got to remember this is a possibility. There is nothing conclusive in that.

[mykonian]

I see armlx as town anyway, I think I have been quite clear in that. Lowell being town doesn't change that. Lowell being scum only confirms Armlx, in stead of having a good feeling about him. Now would you lynch Lowell for that information.

Um...dosn't this entierly contradict what you said here?

I missed the question mark on the last sentence. It was a rhetorical question. I'm sorry.

true. But with LK, MP, and lowell still in the game, I don't see this as a viable lynch. Plus that I'd like to see what lowell comes up. Could say something about armlx, don't you think?

First you say that lynching Lowell "could say something about armlx", then you say that

armlx his average post said: let's lynch lowell. That is some heavy distancing. So, maybe there is something to get from a lowell-lynch.

And then you say that Armlx is town no matter if Lowell is scum or not?

In the course of a few hours, you went from "Lynching Lowell could say something about armlx" to "Armlx is distancing from Lowell" to "Armlx is town if Lowell is town, and really town if Lowell is scum." Why are you so all over the place, why do you keep contradicting yourself here? It almost seems like you'd say anything in order to get Lowell lynched.

[/quote]

I'm sorry? most of the time, I wanted to lynch MP? It still is my first choice, but we are not going to get there. And I say it again: I feel armlx is town, we might almost confirm him. To me, he is regardless what happens, to the rest of the game, I think it isn't, but it can become so.

I'm feeling that I have problems to make things clear to you: I think lowell could be lynched because we won't lose very much, and the fact that meta seems to imply that he is scum makes me vote lowell. After that I tell you how this could confirm armlx. It doesn't say anything about LK. I included the bit about LK only to justify my vote on Lowell while also be suspicious of LK. If this couldn't be done, I would have had to choose between my suspicions.

[mykonian]

No offence meant if it is, myko, but is English your first language? A couple of the sentence structures you're using look slightly weird to me.

No, I know my english isn't that good. It isn't my first language.

[mykonian]

Thank you. School wasn't that nice

my first languages are dutch/frisian.

and I had the feeling you didn't understand what I tried to say, so I posted a summary in post 1209.

[mykonian]

what I said was, that

IF lowell was scum. It would be unlikely that armlx was his scumbuddy. It would make armlx very likely town. If lowell is town, this says nothing about armlx.

because if they would both be scum, that would be heavy distancing. However, I believe it unlikely that one scum would go after his buddy so hard, continuesly asking for more votes. That's why I think that armlx can never be Lowells buddy.

I already have a protown feeling about armlx: that will stay that way. But if lowell is scum, I think it is so unlikely that armlx would go so hard after his buddy, that I think he is nearly confirmed.

[mykonian]

I need a bandwagon in plusminus 9 hours on mafiaplayer. It is night here

yosarian, did you get what I said?

[mykonian]

Yeah, I get it now. One thing I'm still a little confused on; is this supposed to be an arguemnt in favor of lynching lowell?

no, it is my thought before the night. Just in case. Then I have said anything I think.

[mykonian]

Lowell, plz claim, you have 8 votes on you, we need only 9 to lynch you.

[mykonian]

[quote="popsofctown"]Lowell, if you're town, please claim.
If you flip town and had claimed i'll work harder at getting armlx lynched. Promisies.[/quote

I didn't say it, and I don't agree. This link doesn't exist.

[mykonian]

Can I win your left nut too? Just asking.

we can bet when I'm convinced.

I think the ease at which LK went with pops after pops posted suspicion about armlx was scummy.

Oh, you little LIAR. I voted armlx about 4-5 pages ago and have been accusing him of tunnel vision for the better part of the day.

never said you didn't. But that is a small reason for a vote, don't you think?

I reacted on that by telling it was scummy. I have tried to see how scum could do it, and there you get from how this "could" link LK to lowell. But WIFOM plays a big part there, and actually, lowell's lynch wouldn't tell that much about LK. It is just to show that it could be possible, not that I have to choose between lowell and LK on this moment (what would happen if two couldn't be scumbuddy's).

Are you saying that I could be Lowell's partner, but might not actually be, and the playing a wifom card to make it seem like your pathetic indecision is actually analysis?
*Smacks with death note* Bad dog!

I'm saying that, on this moment, I can have suspicions on two people, without having to choose between them. This is because they can both be mafia. Doesn't say it is likely, all I needed that part for is to justify my vote on lowell and my suspicion of you.