Mafia 89: Revenge (Game Over)

[popsofctown]

hey folks... I'm on page 13 of reading this game. Should catch up tomorrow..? Deepends.

[popsofctown]

Sos, i finished reading the thread. I hope we have a forgiving set of people here, because my comprehension of this 23 pages of stuff has been pretty rough.

Before i forget, anyone care to tell me what a town watcher is? And how strongly the use of the word "town" in the title implies a scum version in the game. This is my first closed setup game, i'm not really a fan of closed setups. I'm beginning to feel justified in that, about umpteen players in here want to beat the mod.

I didn't do a play by play like kmd, so where should i start? I'll start with MonkeyMan. I think he's newbscum, mostly because of the appeals to emotion. Him making a mistake on who voted who i don't count against him, i think people make mistakes and like someone said, it was almost garanteed he'd be corrected.

KoC: I don't think he's scum. He's aggressive and rude but I don't see where he's scum. His point on Lowell's chainsawing was legit and is legit, it's fine to protect a newbie but you don't need a vote to do that.

ugh, i gotta go, more later

[popsofctown]

More stuff..

I just don't get a scummy vibe from KoC, even when he goes after MM over what i think is a mistake rather than a lie, it seems to me KoC is sincere.

Azrael, i agree with the idea that Azrael is more likely town than not, it's kind of gutsy to feign noobness and propose the idea of a massclaim that way. All he did was throw up the idea and i don't think he threw up the idea in a rolefishy way, the way he did it seemed appropriate.

Lowell, i think if someone has played a game with Lowell and knows what Lowell scum looks like, he's a good lynch. I don't think he's been too helpful, the analyses that come between sarcastic oneliners are just obvious analyses like (--, rolefishing) and lots of OMGUS like (-, armlx is wrong about my meta).

More later maybe, there's so much in this game. Any requests?

[popsofctown]

my comprehension was the worst these last few pages. Anyone care to explain the case on magisterrain to me?

Oh, and i have no idea if my predecessor (super random guy) voted anyone, but

unvote

if i have not yet.

The only person i would vote is the monkey, I don't see the scum in KoC and i'm not totally sure about Lowell.

[popsofctown]

popsofctown does not know how to react to such play... such play should not exist.

popsofctown confused.

[popsofctown]

i am 'nilla townie

trying to move this game along in an unconventional way

and seeing how people react

people around here are too used to the way games 'should' go and to 'textbook' scumtells

Why the claim magisterrain? Are you at L-2 and i missed it?
This whole freaking game is already half a tutorial on not role-claiming d1, but the way you keep up the stupidity it's going to be a complete tutorial.
Mafiaplayer has the insantiy plea. (it's not even a joke, when someone is doing things that play to neither win condition i analyze them differently). You've been a rational player so far, and a claim from you is very inappropriate unless you are right about to be lynched.

You're either newbscum who just claimed vanilla townie to try to be "unconventional" and get judged less harshly for all his actions, or a townie who is unintelligent enough to realize the negative impact your claim has on the town. After all our discussion that massclaim is bad, miniclaim is bad, and D1 claiming in a competently modded closed game is bad.

vote: magisterrain

[popsofctown]

@killa 7: can we hear more than a one line from you? what do you think of the game so far?

[popsofctown]

That could be dangerous.

[popsofctown]

Kuribo is making so much sense this game that I think he must be scum in the other game I'm playing with him.

I think that's playing your game outside the thread, i'd be careful of that. Try to respect the rules in both games. (if you're not over the line i'm sorry for correcting you.)

[popsofctown]

ok, you want my guesses in complete

scumgroup 1 killed protown player (KMD)
scumgroup 2 killed "watcher"

and there was a last kill, that could be from Vig/SK.

So that's why I said KMD must have looked protown. Not that it matters, just my opinion.

What? I don't get this. Why would scumgroup 1 kill a protown player who hasn't claimed a power role? If there's two scumgroups, they are probably small enough to suspect there's other scumgroups in the game. So in that case isn't the first order of business to try to kill the other scumgroup? So each scumgroup would shoot for SCUMMY players, not innocent ones.

Am i just ignorant on theory here?

[popsofctown]

Ok, i pretty easily buy that there is a policyvig out who killed killa 7. So @light-kun, i don't think we need to go policylynching lurkers. (that's what it looks like with the lack of reasoning)

However, in the name of discussion I'm going to

Vote: Lowell

because i've heard he only talks under pressure, and I count the "chainsaw" event against him and now see the argument that he slid off a monkey-bus. And there's always armlx's (questionable) word that Lowell-scum looks just like this. For reference, who was the person who said they disagree with that meta? Besides you Lowell.

[popsofctown]

Ok, just read that... why in the sam hill would you block Sun Tzu? He seems more pro-town to me right now than any other player, although he admittedly posts with low frequency. Any specific reason mafiaplayer?

I think mafiaplayer may actually be town. Fact is stranger than fiction sometimes.

[popsofctown]

My gut, for some reason or another, has believed mafiaplayer since D1. I don't really have any good reason for the gut feeling at all, but i have a good question for you guys: wouldn't MafiaPlayer

also

know that roleblockers aren't told they are roleblocked. In which case, it seems like claiming to have roleblocked monkey or kmd or killa 7 would be a much better fake option.


Either way:

FTR, I think we're dealing with scum/vig/SK, with Monkey being the SK kill (who would assume it's a smart kill whether he be powerrole or lying scum).

This makes more sense to me than any other NK interpretation. Seeing as we have an opposing scum faction, or SK, or other thing that likes to kill role-claimers who are probably scum, can't we leave Mafiaplayer to the night?

[popsofctown]

Maybe i don't have enough experience. Exactly how inconceivable is it that MafiaPlayer was roleblocked and informed?

[popsofctown]

But is mafiaplayer new to this site? It's some sort of WIFOM. Why make up an implausible night result?
Maybe she got jailkeepered. Jailkeepers are standard right, and it's roleblock + protect. Maybe Phate thought since a protown role blocked her, she therefore had a right to know?

[popsofctown]

You lynch the most likely to be scum player each day then.

Vote: Mafiaplayer

Votecount:
Mafiaplayer - 3 (kuribo, Light-kun, popsofctown)
Lowell - 2 (armlx, Knight of Cydonia)
Sun Tzu - 1 (Mafiaplayer)
Not voting: Shanba, Vi, alvinz95, -TinVision, Sun Tzu, mykonian, Lowell, Azrael001, Yosarian2, CF Riot, BridgesAndBaloons

With 17 alive, it's 9 to lynch.

[popsofctown]

Does MP need to be lynched or vigged? There doesn't seem to be a consensus. I'm sort of indifferent. The N1 results strongly suggest we have a vig, so MP can be left to the night. On top of that, MM's death suggests there's no mafia doc.

[popsofctown]

unvote

One way or the other has to be better, and i'd like to know what it is. Why don't you care which way it happens armlx? Can you show me how the two are equivalent actions?

[popsofctown]

Vote: Lowell

For being very OMGUSsy, and his odd defense of Azrael, and to learn more about armlx.

[popsofctown]

I want a rehash.

[popsofctown]

kuribo, the odds he is just dumb and town lying are significantly high to the point a lynch is worthless given a more or less known vig in the set up.

FoS: armlx

A page ago, you were correcting kuribo for wanting to lynch MP, as seen above.

I asked two posts ago which way it needs to happen, and you said:

Does MP need to be lynched or vigged? There doesn't seem to be a consensus. I'm sort of indifferent. The N1 results strongly suggest we have a vig, so MP can be left to the night. On top of that, MM's death suggests there's no mafia doc.

He just needs to be removed from the game in some manner.

What the crap? A page ago, someone isn't even asking your opinion and you explain to them that a vigging is clearly better than a lynching. When asked explicitly, you answer just to say it's all the same. Then when i ask again you do say that it's vigging.

When i asked which was best, why didn't you just tell me a vigging? You've obviously thought about it, you told kuribo a vigging was better a page ago. LAL anyone?
He's making me suspect he'd like to see MP's lynch happen the wrong way. I think he's bussing, and he's bad at it.

My vote is for pressure on someone who's V/LA, so let's go.

Vote: armlx

[popsofctown]

EBWOP:

unvote, Vote: armlx

[popsofctown]

So you endorse suboptimal town play?

Votecount:
Lowell - 3 (armlx, Knight of Cydonia, Shanba,)
Mafiaplayer - 3 (kuribo, Azrael001, Mafiaplayer)
Light-kun - 1 (CF Riot)
Vi - 1 (Light-kun)
armlx - 1 (popsofctown)
Not voting: Vi, alvinz95, -TinVision, Sun Tzu, mykonian, Lowell, Yosarian2, BridgesAndBaloons

With 17 alive, it's 9 to lynch.

[popsofctown]

FoS Pops:

Armlx is saying that lynching Mafiaplayer is suboptimal play, but he wouldn't mind it happening. After all, Mafiaplayer is more than likely scum, but optimal play would be letting vig kill him.

If he thought it was suboptimal play, but not so suboptimal that he minds it, why would he go out of his way to correct Kuribo a page ago because Kuribo favored the lynch option? I read what he's saying Light-kun, and that's not what he was saying only a page ago.

Also, why are you FoSing me? you've shown why you think i'm wrong, but you haven't shown any malicious intent.

@Yosarian2: mafiaplayer has a female avatar, but male checked as his gender.

[popsofctown]

FoSes are meaningless? What? Then why would you issue one at all?

And don't tell someone who is playing a game to ask for replacement. MP is still posting game-related info regularly and debatably still playing to his win condition.

Sorry to echo Yosarian too much :/ but yeah

[popsofctown]

There's probably some WIFOM in there, but that makes a lot of sense....

Wish you would have waited until some people like -tinvision- checked the thread

[popsofctown]

it makes sense to me

[popsofctown]

I think he unvoted in response to the possible conclusion that a vigging was better, iirc

[popsofctown]

i think killa 7's corpse indicates we have a vig. Can you give me another plausible explanation?

[popsofctown]

It's not trusting to others what we can do ourselves. It's trusting a specific one of ourselves to do something we can do ourselves....

I think lynching someone for claiming their role incorrectly gives us almost no info. Might as well let the vig do it.

[popsofctown]

I think that judging by his actions he is almost certainly scum.

So why aren't you voting him?

If we did immediately vote MP, it would be night again, and tomorrow we'd be in the same boat as today, only with fewer chances to screw up. Do you not think that as a group we have a better chance of finding scum than one person with no day discussion to go by?

So... your logic is you don't want to lynch someone you feel is obv scum because that would bring the game closer to end.

Pro Tip: When you lynch a scum, the worst case number of lynches till lynch or lose does not decrease.

Oh my freaking gosh. Is this the same armlx? The one's whose position is officially: "Lynch MP or vig MP are both good options, with vig MP being slightly better". Why are you jumping on someone for doing what you yourself said is the better option?

CF Riot made a lot of sense a while ago. Light-kun's infinite shrug defense is not a good cop-out, but he uses it for everything like it's ketchup.

[popsofctown]

Aaaand you simulpost to reinforce your new position against vigging MP. Am i the only one who sees anything scummy in armlx's inconsistencies?

[popsofctown]

Several pages ago, armlx corrected kuribo when kuribo was favoring a wagon on Mafiaplayer. This meanss that armlx saw a big enough difference in the quality of the two options to correct someone so that we lynch a non-mafiaplayer.

So then, later, I ask as an open question whether vigging or lynching MP is better. The first response is armlx, saying that (close paraphrase): mafia player just needs to be removed from this game one way or another.

Why would he answer my question and say the options are equally good, when a few pages ago he corrected someone away from a lynch. When i put him on defensive he defined his position as that he likes either a vigging or a lynching, a vigging being only slightly better. He said they were so close in utility that he answered my question with "either".
But if they are all the same to him, why did he

correct

someone earlier for favoring the slightly worse option? It's not consistent.

@above post: on reread, armlx isn't changing his postion right now, he is as he says, only challenging Azrael's logic. I retract that bit, i still think what i've outlined above is worth a vote.

Btw armlx, i favor Azrael's "two heads better than one" reason, and you really can't expect to refute it using only a vague anecdote.


I'm getting the feeling i'd probably have to read a light-kun game to read light-kun

[popsofctown]

Does MP need to be lynched or vigged? There doesn't seem to be a consensus. I'm sort of indifferent. The N1 results strongly suggest we have a vig, so MP can be left to the night. On top of that, MM's death suggests there's no mafia doc.

He just needs to be removed from the game in some manner.

1)

I'm not completely opposed to a lynch

. I would not be sad if MP was todays lynch,

it would just be suboptimal.

per armlx's request

Votecount:
Lowell - 3 (armlx, Knight of Cydonia, Shanba)
armlx - 2 (popsofctown, Azrael001)
Light-kun - 1 (CF Riot)
Vi - 1 (Light-kun)
Mafiaplayer - 1 (Yosarian2)
Not voting: Vi, alvinz95, -TinVision, Sun Tzu, mykonian, Lowell, BridgesAndBaloons, Mafiaplayer, kuribo

With 17 alive, it's 9 to lynch.

[popsofctown]

No armlx, EXACTLY what you said would be:

He just needs to be removed from the game in some manner.

That quote doesn't suggest any inequality between the two options. It implies both are good options. You can't breathe new life into your old words armlx, this is what you said.

[popsofctown]

You didn't elaborate on how equal they are. You elaborated on how your answer wasn't exactly expressing yoru position in the first place and how it's actually not that way. You're inconsistent.

[popsofctown]

Your first anwer had no traces of your second answer in it. It's not a misrep. AP or Reuters rep, you just want to redefine your original answer.

[popsofctown]

As much as i don't like armlx right now, he's right. Mafia doctors are sufficiently rare that he doesn't need to mention that. The best proof we don't have a mafia doctor in this game is probably MonkeyMan's corpse.

I think a lynch is better, because: It will work, no matter what RB's do, After the previous kill, I think I like the vig, so I don't worry that he would pick a wrong target. Also, he can use the information we get from MP's lynch, to pick better.

How is the info from MP's lynch a pro? It's such a cut-and-dry case of incorrectly guessing protocol that scum are going to be bussing just as consistently as townies are voting. (even worse, the players' own experience with different mods might be a sort of bias). Any other lynch would give the mod more info.

The vig killed Killa 7 as a policy vigging. (we assume.. i think it's a very safe assumption). That doesn't show he can read people really well, it just shows he can remove lurkers from the game. Which was a good thing, who knew he was a cop, but it doesn't mean we should expect whoever to be smart enough to zero in on scum tonight.

To me, lynching MP today is like saying, "We can't figure out any scum besides MP between the 17 of us, but we expect to vig to. Good luck with that."

[popsofctown]

For some reason i hadn't yet thought of this benefit to leaving MP to the night: watchers and trackers. Tracker results can be better interpreted with such an obvious pro-town target to kill tonight, watchers can identify

vigs

vigs or SKs

persons not a member of MP's mafia tonight.

[popsofctown]

?
If i ever got passionate, i'm pretty sure it was about what i saw as an inconsistency in armlx's position.

I do think a vigging is better than a lynching though. There's little reason to believe that MafiaPlayer has any night actions besides his group's NK.. he claimed roleblocker when people were fishing him to be a cop, he probably came up with the idea of claiming then (based on what i've heard of his meta)

[popsofctown]

I'm a slow vote by nature, Lowell.

Central Scrutinizer, if you don't participate in this game you might end up like K7. Playstyle or not, please try to contribute to this game if you're town, you don't have to post as much as the best but post enough. We don't need more cops flipping from vig kills.

[popsofctown]

Shanba is so win. I couldn't explain the MP vig that well.

[popsofctown]

I don't think you should give up KoC.

unvote

We can get Lowell or <insert nonMP here> lynched, i think there's enough people against lynching MP that just haven't made up there minds about Lowell yet, like me. Or at least i hope there is... don't want to do a real count.

[popsofctown]

That doesn't make sense to me. He's a roleblocker, but rather than telling the truth about his roleblock target last night, he lied and said his roleblock was roleblocked?

[popsofctown]

That doesn't make sense to me. He's a roleblocker, but rather than telling the truth about his roleblock target last night, he lied and said his roleblock was roleblocked?

Hmm. That's a valid point. So, you think he lied in order to cover up a fake roleblocker claim?

Yes, I'm pretty sure he has to be mafia goon or town watcher. As the saying goes, you don't lie when the truth will work better. The fact that mafia goons usually don't fakeclaim roleblocker if they aren't actually that role is part of the reason this whole affair doesn't add up to me. Since this is my first large normal though, i'm trying to just accept what is really really for sure mod protocol.

[popsofctown]

He's homo sapiens, there has to be some way of predicting what he does or will do.

[popsofctown]

Vi is already voting myk

[popsofctown]

Did you know Vi was voting myk when i told you about it or not? Straight answer. Did you type out 962 knowing Vi was voting myk, or only find out when i told you?

[popsofctown]

@pops: I know.

Then why this? Were you lying? I don't know how much of a scumtelling lie it would be, but at the least it's rude. If someone tells you something you didn't know, you say thanks, you don't lie to them about your need for the info.

[popsofctown]

Actually, it looks like jester breadcrumbing.. cept phayte is good mod.

Light-kun, is English your first language? I know means I know. It's not a confusion thing, it's a: i'm gonna be a jerk and never admit i'm wrong, thing. Unless he's scum trying to nod something away maybe.
I really ought to read a light game, he's too weird. CF, could you highlight the anti-light points for me? because i don't think Vi is interested enough to do that.

[popsofctown]

That sounds like good stuff. I could go for light-kun lynch, especially when you add the weird role soft-claiming that CF Riot quoted. If he's town, it's inappropriate for him to hint he has a role, especially since this role-claim tutorial should teach him better (this game is the tutorial i speak of).
So i'm thinking he wants to put that in there and hope we whisper to ourselves "Oh dear, he some sort of magic pro-town role. Let us not bother the light kun".

unvote

armlx,

vote: light-kun

[popsofctown]

i tried skimming through one of your games light kun, i couldn't find you getting accused anywhere which is what i'm interested in

[popsofctown]

you didn't use opening tags azrael.. did you mean:

Apparently sub-par play is a scum tell now... Mediocre play is the best way to survive. You generate enough suspicion that the anti-town factions don't use their kill on you, and you don't generate enough suspicion to get lynched.

[sarcasm]

I hate to pull a Lowell, but "I'm playing on a level that you can't comprehend."

[/sarcasm]

or did you mean:

Apparently sub-par play is a scum tell now...

[sarcasm]

Mediocre play is the best way to survive. You generate enough suspicion that the anti-town factions don't use their kill on you, and you don't generate enough suspicion to get lynched. I hate to pull a Lowell, but "I'm playing on a level that you can't comprehend."

[/sarcasm]

? I read it the second way. Everyone else seems to have read it the first.

[popsofctown]

I really think he meant that he recognizes the nighttime benefits of being slightly suspicious, but doesn't seek them. (Honesty translation: I don't have to alter my town-read on him if that's what he meant. I don't feel like altering it)

[popsofctown]

armlx, Why must all of your posts focus so narrowly on one person that the town starts to think it is popular theory and you remove yourself from all other discussion?

FoS armlx.

Hey, you think if i put my vote on armlx and leave it there, then armlx lynch will get popular?

Fixed quote tags.

[popsofctown]

I'm thinking it was tongue-in-cheek.

Stranger things have happened this game.

[popsofctown]

Anyway the reason I don't want to be on the wagon with KoC is because he blew up earlier, and I have trouble trusting the reasoning powers of anyone who lets himself get so worked up over a game.

@Light: I don't have that strong a suspicion of him, though I wouldn't put it past either him or what's his face (the guy he got in an argument with) to out one of their teammates in the hopes of gaining the town's trust, and the other freaking out about it. (Honestly I don't remember much about the argument now, and I have to leave now, so I won't be looking it up now.) This is merely a vague feeling, and I don't really think that it is true, it is merely something that floats in the back of my mind.

Surely you realize this is bad logic.
Just because someone doesn't have strong reasoning powers doesn't mean their opinion would decrease the likelihood of it being correct. This is like changing your answer to a test because the guy next to you who's guessing every one has the same answer as you: inability to make good decisions can only put you at the baseline of random guessing, and never actually cause that person pick incorrect answers more often than random selections would.

[popsofctown]

I could possibly go for Lowell lynch, although i'd like armlx lynch much more. Lowell seems to be scum/unreadable town.. because all he posts is generally OMGUS (in his analyses) and "nuh uh" defense.

[popsofctown]

Actually, no armlx. Some standard tells were derived directly from Bayes theorem (that rule that scum are more likely to do things that satisfy scum win condition more than town win condition) Then they were confirmed by in-game experienced. But I'm pretty sure some first guy said: hey, it satisfies the scum win condition to vote town than it does to vote scums, so maybe that guy hammering townies is mafia.

Of course, i guess that's a chicken or the egg thing and i'm just splitting hairs.

[popsofctown]

Mod, prod The Central Scrutinizer

[popsofctown]

Mafiaplayer: who do you think should be lynched today?

Votecount:
Lowell - 4 (armlx, Shanba, Azrael001, kuribo)
Mafiaplayer - 3 (Yosarian2, mykonian, CF Riot)
Light-kun - 3 (Vi, popsofctown, Knight of Cydonia)
kuribo - 1 (Lowell)
armlx - 1 (Light-kun)
Not voting: Alabaska J, The Central Scrutinizer, Sun Tzu, BridgesAndBaloons, Mafiaplayer

With 17 alive, it's 9 to lynch.

[popsofctown]

Quit playing jury captain. People have made very good cases for why we should leave MP to the vig

[popsofctown]

Unvote, Vote: Lowell

Day is indeed getting old. His bad voting record is bad, and he can't stop OMGUSsing. He's a good alternative to MP.

Votecount:
Lowell - 4 (armlx, Shanba, Azrael001, kuribo, popsofctown)
Mafiaplayer - 4 (Yosarian2, mykonian, CF Riot, Vi)
Light-kun - 1 (Knight of Cydonia)
kuribo - 1 (Lowell)
armlx - 1 (Light-kun)
CF Riot - 1 (Mafiaplayer)
Not voting: Alabaska J, The Central Scrutinizer, Sun Tzu, BridgesAndBaloons

With 17 alive, it's 9 to lynch.

[popsofctown]

The town can find scum better than the vig can.

[popsofctown]

igmeoy?

[popsofctown]

I was trying to put it in terms of similar players who you may have a better meta sense of? I dunno.

If you don't think it's at least fairly likely MP is scum, then you're "let's vig MP" mantra would be incredibly scummy, armlx.

Its probably slightly above random. However why is a policy vig here scummy?

OH MY GOSH PEOPLE COME ON!!!

unvote

vote: armlx

Will you guys finally see how ridiculously scummy this player is?? He wants to vig someone who's scumminess is "slightly above random".

[popsofctown]

Why, no matter what armlx says, it seems only a few people like Yos see my point. Armlx wagon 2.0 is a fail .

unvote

My vote goes back to Lowell, for aforementioned reasons and the general notion that this day has been too long

Vote: Lowell

[popsofctown]

Lowell, if you're town, please claim.
If you flip town and had claimed i'll work harder at getting armlx lynched. Promisies.

[popsofctown]

i don't see any link either. I just know Lowell doesn't like armlx, so i'm trying to give him an incentive for good behavior. I've seen townies refuse to claim, that's always a bad thing.

[popsofctown]

I hammered? Well, that's nifty, i've never hammered in any of my mafia games before.

I'm sorry about not counting better and waiting for a though guys.

[popsofctown]

ebwop insert the word "claim" as the object of preposition for the "for"

[popsofctown]

So, why don't we see what light-kun has to say before we lynch MP? I think he's at L-something ugly already. I'll vote MP once NA are all claimed, MP's living and breathing is too weird.

[popsofctown]

but if he was roleblocker, he would know xP

[popsofctown]

that chart hurts my head.
What i know is, SKs don't have roleblocking power. If light-kun could be SK, and btw his behavior is really SK-like (with the shrugging but not really seeming connnected to anyone), then lynching him today could prevent a NK tonight. That's important.

[popsofctown]

BandB: Why am i an SK? T

[popsofctown]

@BandB: I wasn't revealing new info, i was repeating what everyone in this thread already knows. As we discussed early in the game, the only roles allowed in this game are standard, common ones, like mafia godfather or jailkeeper or doctor or SK. SK with roleblocking powers is not standard or common. So I and everyone else know it's not in the game.

I'm not rescinding my position, if someone has a reason to believe Light-Kun is SK (i don't understand why, he could very well be the mafia member expected to perform the kill and the death stopped that way), then his lynch takes priority, since we could directly stop a NK

[popsofctown]

1-2? It's still unlikely, i guess it's possible then. The general point is still true: someone trying to claim roleblocker is much more likely to be mafia than SK

[popsofctown]

Have i voted MP yet?

unvote, vote Mafiaplayer

He's doing too much living and breathign, he was supposed to get vigged.

[popsofctown]

>_<
Bad roleclaim TCS. You don't even know for sure that Light-kun isn't scum, so why roleclaim to explain the lack of a nightkill to us? You roleclaim to save

known

innocents and lynch known scum.

Does anyone know TCS well enough to know if he's incompetent enough to roleclaim like this? I don't see how the claim is protown at all, best case scenario is that we believe it, remove

one

of the reasons against light-kun away, and he dies while getting roleblocked tonight. Equals suck.
I ask if anyone knows him well, because if he's not dumb enough to do this as town he might be "dumb" enough to try it as a scum gambit.

[popsofctown]

uh, hay gais..... armlx is dead already.

[popsofctown]

I guess the validity of the roleclaim is dependent on how much you think light is town. I'm not very sold that he's town anyway, but i suppose if TCS thought somewhat strongly that light-kun was town, it'd be a good claim. Is that how you feel TCS?

[popsofctown]

With ten playing and three Mafia, a Townlynch and three notMafiakills overnight would end the game. If any Mafia die, any kills fail, or the SK is lynched, the game will go on.

Doesn't this give us 3 lynches today? The town can lynch someone, suggest TCS' nightkill, and additionally suggest the SK's nightkill since he's obligated to hit scum. That's a lot of chances to hit scum

[popsofctown]

We can be sure that there is a vig (probably is TCS), and it's almost for sure that there is an SK. Killa 7's death is pretty clearly a policy vigging. MonkeyMan's death is either an SK or opposing scum faction. If that wasn't an SK, then the opposing scum faction probably started out equal to their opponents and probably wants to shoot scum anyway.

Since Lowell explained his reasoning for it being scum+vig+SK, i've been pretty comfortable with that explanation.

[popsofctown]

Grr. Vi knows how to push my buttons. I'll do a player-by-player analysize-up.

[popsofctown]

Names pasted courtesy of page 1.

1) Wiccan Honor Shanba

Shanba kind of swings both ways for me. A lot of the stuff s/he says seem very protown, but players have made good points about h/er/is not taking strong positions. Overall, I don't think it amounts to enough to lynch Shanba, at least not without a confirmed connection. S/he makes too much sense.

looking back on the thread, i see Shanba totally waffle in place on whether light-kun is scum. Since i'm going to

Vote: Light-kun

, that could mean something tomorrow.

3) Aceagain johhan Vi
I get this amorphous unsure feeling about whether Vi is scum. Last time i had that feeling he was town. Coupled with the fact that she has little to no specific documented transgressions, i'm pretty happy to finger him as town.

6) -TinVision- The Central Scrutinizer
I dunno much about closed setups, but i'm pretty sure there's little to no reason to decide if TCS is scum today, based on night strategy. If i had to guess i'd lean him towards scum, but i don't have reasons. But he has no source material either, hence perfect Zen balance.
9) Light-kun
I think light-kun is likely SK or scum, although i get notions the opposite direction a lot. The way he defended himself against CF Riot doesn't make me feel good about him. I read one of his games where he was town, there wasn't as much shrugging. *shrug*.
10) Sun Tzu Cogito Ergo Scum
As Shanba has pointed out, Sun Tzu's d1 posting looks very obvtown. Yet at the same time, Sun Tzu manages to never get his hands very dirty D1, almost curiously so, like he's avoiding the fray. I would still put him in the positives, but Sun Tzu's semi-reclusion from D1 dampens the fact that every single thing he said that day rang town. (which shanba has also said).
14) Azrael001
Although a lot of the points against him make sense to me, i overall have to mark him as newb town. His D1 seems very newbtownish, the way he politely asks about a mass claim and the way he interacts with KoC. Though he's done bad things, like talk about staying alive by seeming vaguely suspicious, it still lines up with a newbtown profile for me. Btw, can someone highlight the Shanba Azrael connection? because i don't know about it.
16) ahaad Yosarian2
What's the case on him? I looked through his posts some so i'd have something to put here, but i didn't get much of an idea. He seems to run around and disagree with things that come out of people's mouth instead of making his own ideas, which is a -.
18) PerArdua CF Riot
I think he seems town to me. His vendetta on Light-kun seems like town on scum. The fact that he's more concerned with Light-kun's body hitting the floor than any old lynch is a definite + for me.
19) super random dude popsofctown
obvtown. The mod told me i get 10 investigations on night 4. It's true.
21) BridgesAndBaloons
Didn't he mispell balloons? His work on killing Monkeyman leans me more to him being town than scum. It didn't seem like bussing to me. I think he's probably town.

[popsofctown]

lightkun, is that some omgus or can you explain for me?

[popsofctown]

i definitely don't. Way too daring for a new player to try. at least the way he did it.

[popsofctown]

what's the azrael case? his "survive the night" strategy he talked about?

[popsofctown]

Too easy? *eyebrow raise eybrow raise* How can a wagon be too easy?

[popsofctown]

if you think azrael's lynch is scum motivated, i say shoot for light-kun. He's been extremely fluid today.

[popsofctown]

if you think azrael's lynch is scum motivated, i say shoot for light-kun. He's been extremely fluid today.

Bah, I don't care which on my list, but i have a decent reason to lynch either you or Azrael. (Also at Vi: Do you think Shanba's last post looks scum? I want your read.)

The problem with Az: Can't read. So neutral I conclude scum. However, I think your scum... CFriot is...hmm... I think he's scum, but whatever. I'll conclude this later if we get to a tomorrow.

(Central, for the love of all that's good, please don't give up. if your shot tonight, okay, but you MUST shoot if we mislynch under the assumption that today is lylo.)
In any case:

Unvote; Vote Popsofctown

Non-sequitirs, OMGUS, and waffles for everyone!!! i can't even really address anything from this post in a specific way, because the flow of logic is just so bad. Light-kun, what's your case against me? Better question, if i'm apparently scummy and Azrael is neutral, why were you voting Azrael until 3 posts ago?

[popsofctown]

your scummy because you change positions so quickly. It depends on what lynch will go through easily. You seriously seem like all you want to survive at least until night.

[popsofctown]

?Yos replaced in, didn't he? And i'm not extremely pleased with what he's done in the time he's had.

[popsofctown]

Yosarian is high profile? I didn't know.

[popsofctown]

Shanba should vote Light-kun.

[popsofctown]

The vig should shoot. His shots have no worse chance of hitting town than our lynches do, in theory. Stalling for the slight improvement over random chances we get from lynching is mathematically wrong. He should shoot, and shoot for scum.

[popsofctown]

I could definitely go for Yos lynch if we needed some.

Shanba: would you say you're guilty result makes you want to not kill Light-kun?

[popsofctown]

I don't suspect you that much. Just everything you've said this game has come across weak, and we need to scrape together any votes at all to get a lynch today. You're way behind light-kun

[popsofctown]

Yosarian's avatar is too distracting, probably because i've seen that musical

[popsofctown]

I don't suspect you that much. Just everything you've said this game has come across weak, and we need to scrape together any votes at all to get a lynch today. You're way behind light-kun

[popsofctown]

unvote

vote:yosarian2

I think this is lynch produces information. And someone said the deadline is tomorrow, any lynch is good.


Shanba has pointed out that both the SK and vig must shoot for scum if we lynch town today. No one here seems to be taking up the mantle on directing kills, so i think i will.

Vig

: Even if you aren't TCS for some reason or another, shoot Azrael if we lynch Yos and he flips town. It's logical because Azrael got democratic popularity at one point today, and Yos's opinion becomes valuable guidance if it turns out to be purely motivated.

SK or smaller faction or maybe other vig

: Don't shoot Azrael. Shoot someone you think is scum, because if both Azrael and yos are town you could auto-lose. Don't shoot Shanba either because right now it looks a lot like Azrael's and Shanba's alignments match. Shoot Light-kun, or shoot CFRiot if you're in the opposite camp on that matter (people seem to believe Lightkun or CFriot is scum on an either/or basis).

[popsofctown]

^^^not a democratic way of directing kills i guess. I think this would be the best way to decide which night action instruction is the official one.

1. If TCS says he likes one, that's the one that goes.
2. The one with the most /supports behind it.
3. If that's a tie, last plan to be posted.

These rules seem to be the most feasible way of coordinating a night with a day left until deadline.

[popsofctown]

It looks like Yosarian or no lynch people. No lynches are bad, wheresoever your opinions lie.

[popsofctown]

no, i really thought light-kun lynch is far superior, it just isn't coming together.

[popsofctown]

@SK:

Do something useful. There are a bunch of people out here with a myriad of transgressions. Go for one of the people who's trying to direct the SK, go for the person who has spent the game going gung-ho against Light, go for the person who shrugged through the game and contradicted himself at every turn, go for the guy who made one relevant post today, go for the guy who's modding a game but doesn't have time to post here, go for the unverified claimee - roughly in that order of importance IMO, though who am I to decide. I wouldn't recommend shooting me simply because neither of us can afford to lose another pro-Town player; if we were not in LyLo I wouldn't mind surrendering my life if there was enough demand.

Er, you put yourself tied for first in that ranked order of importance My opinion is still that Shanba is a bad shot, since his alignment probably matches Azrael's. Which out of CFRiot or Light-kun is most anti-Azrael? That'd probably be the best shot.

[popsofctown]

Er, you put yourself tied for first in that ranked order of importance

Truth in advertising.

What's "truth in advertising" mean? Is that a scumclaim?

[popsofctown]

ohkay that's what i thoughted

[popsofctown]

Sometimes i'm a leader, sometimes i'm a follower, in life. In this game, i'm a confessing follower. For some reason i have trouble picking up on stuff on my own this game.
all Over three word answers to Shanba's question are probably all scummy, but whatever.

[popsofctown]

It looks like CES didn't make a nightkill unless he flouted our instructions.

[popsofctown]

I think I've found an interesting line of thought but there's no gain to discussing it today. Please remind me of this post tomorrow (and I think there will be a tomorrow) if I don't remember it.

Polite request vaguely addressed at everyone honored.


I don't think TCS, i think i accidentally said CES earlier >_> sent in a nightkill because i think he would have killed Azrael based on our discussion. Vi was pretty much saying that Azrael needs to die. Our doctor is dead and there was two kills. The protown roleblocker is dead. Really either the mafia, SK, or vig didn't send in a kill, and only one of those has a history for not being here. And we know TCS's activity dropped off the end of yesterday.

Anywhoo...

Right now my two top suspects are CFRiot and Azrael. I think Azrael's scumminess's have been beat to death, and at Yosarian's level of experience bussing remains very very plausible so that's not a huge protection for him. Iirc, Azrael was one of the last to vote Yosarian, which looks like someone who is, in fact, unwilling to bus.

CFRiot is suspicious because of the tunneling. Yesterday's vote count has him voting a townie when he could be voting a mafiosi, that looks bad to me. I've thought his cases on light-kun were earnest during this game, but now i'm rethinking that. Sometimes the voting record can be the only think giving away a skilled mafiosi.

First things first, we need a investigation result from Shanba. If he has an innocent result on someone, that could be a real boon.

[popsofctown]

reading the those references actually makes me more concerned. If you had those suspicions from much earlier in the game, why didn't you go after Yos AT ALL yesterday?


And dude, i totally forgot that two factions can target the same person.

Yesterday i think there was a mix between "only vig azrael if yos2 flips scum" and "just vig azrael". Vi wanted Azrael to just die, and i think TCS would listen to the vi because vi's a vet and has less suspicion on him.

There's no sense in talking about it, since either TCS can tell us or his replacement. I dont know why i started this convo.

[popsofctown]

I didn't vote for you did I? I want to go back an look for actual evidence. That takes time that I am not currently willing to spend.

Do i need do more than quote this?



I don't know how i made the error of saying TCS is alive. I actually read the night kill and said "of course, they shot the vig". But then later i somehow thought he was alive.

@CFRiot: Your links to putting pressure on Yos were totally pathetic, limp, wet noodle pressure early in the day and never ever when he was under any pressure and not when we lynched him yesterday. I can't believe you are seriously referencing that total crap.

I think vi is town. I gtg, explain later

[popsofctown]

Btw, did you use a hyperlink for that wet noodle stuff so other people would assume there was legit stuff behind them? You've used quotes most of the game iirc. Do you have a tradition of using hyperlinks for self-quotes? I'm gonna want to check up on that.

I think vi is town because he's giving off the same vague, mildly scummy vibe he gave off my last game when he was town. And he hasn't done anything specific that's independently scummy that i know of.

Azrael most definitely has. I like Vi's theory that TCS shot Azrael. Maybe godfather or something.

Azrael just said, practically, "wagon first, reasons later. But i'm not voting yet!!" Really CF and Azrael are in quite a fight to look scummier than the other.

[popsofctown]

Cogito, are you saying you are counting out Azrael for being scum at all and doubt he's SK? He could still very well be scum. And he's acting worse and worse

[popsofctown]

But CF, you suggested yourself as a possible target that survived a TCS shooting. That's like claiming bulletproof. You see where CES is getting that?

[popsofctown]

The stuff he referenced isn't very strong suspicion at all, very weak junk. Not the diet coke of suspicion. The pepsi-one of suspicion.

[popsofctown]

As i've said before, only azrael rivals him in scumminess. He'd be my choice straight off, but i'm not gonna vote him without hearing more from azrael

[popsofctown]

Why can't he be mafia then?

[popsofctown]

Why can't he be mafia then?

[popsofctown]

Why can't he be mafia then?

[popsofctown]

Why can't he be mafia then?

[popsofctown]

Because a scum was lynched, or because I simply didn't know who to shoot.

Is this a slip?

[popsofctown]

CFR: You have a town read on Azrael? If so, explain

[popsofctown]

Now, for who I think

is

scum, I'll look at one's behavior in the thread, rather than base it off of the fact that someone doesn't agree with me about something speculative and not really relevant.

Ok, do that now please.. who's your no. one suspect?

[popsofctown]

^^^I endorse this product or service

[popsofctown]

CFR, what do you have to say for yourself? I'm inclined to follow. Vi's reasons are good, i think you really lacked pressure on Yos

[popsofctown]

Azrael raises being scummy to an art form.


CFRiot, it's claim or die

[popsofctown]

someone unvote, because he has a good point, we should definitely hear out MME when we're working with a town of this size. I really shouldn't have even asked for a claim or die as early as i did. I feel a little ashamed actually.. i usually try really hard to keep people from pushpushing my naturally slow playing style, because i think slow is good.

[popsofctown]

The claim kind of splits things. He breadcrumbed it at the beginning of the game, which probably means he's either actually a hider, or a bad guy that can evade death.

[popsofctown]

hider is an easy claim, and even if you screw it up, you just could claim vanilla in endgame instead of your breadcrumb if no one noticed

[popsofctown]

I'm seeing tons of town in this game too Azrael. Mafia is hard.

[popsofctown]

I'm posting on mafiascum from my iPod touch!!!! I issue myself typo amnesty. As for cfr's bit about jk immunity, I agree that there's no way tcs wasn't shot by mafia. It is possible that an so thinks he's godfather though.

Vi is thinking her endgame really hard. Sometimes when he does that, very bad things happen. I'm gonna keep to my own strats. That strat right now says to vote cfr once mms gets to post. The bad voting record just looks over all for me.

@vi: why the crap am I always the sk??? "if this person is town, he's scum, she's scum, and pops is the sk". I get the bit about cesc and mms not being active enough to fill the slot, but why am I such a better sk than cfr? He's the one who breadcrumbed nightkill immunity.

[popsofctown]

I only got time for a ebwop for my last post: perhaps an sk thinks cfr is godfather. My itouch thinks so=sk.

[popsofctown]

Why the hate on MME and his slot? BandB did some good D1 if i remember correctly, and i think he legitimately couldn't stay active later on. The case on MME = he's scum because if he's town he would have reread the thread by now?

Votecount:
CF Riot - 2 (Shanba, Cogito Ergo Scum)
Not Voting: Cogito Ergo Scum, Azrael001, popsofctown, My Milked Eek, Vi, Azrael001
With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch.

[popsofctown]

At least he's posting in other games Viiii..... if he was posting in GD would he get a free pass???? <_<

He's probably posting in other threads because he's not going to just stop posting until he's read 66 pages.

[popsofctown]

Red alert! Insane waffling!!

CFRiot has been saying very good things about me the whole game and he's totally flipping. This looks like a scum quicklynch. Any decent person with a vote on me unvote. Meantime i'm going to quote the stuff CFR says that contradicts this sudden vote.

[popsofctown]

RE: Pops - I think you're tunneling him. Like I've said, he's scummy enough to be scum. With 6 suspects left and likely 3 scum, I would not be at all surprised if he was scum. But I think he's been less scummy than others. I think Az is more likely SK than Pops, but you have him in your town pile.

Those are the only two I'm not voting today. Any of MME, Az, Vi, or Pops could be scum. I think that's the order I suspect them in now too.

i'm fourth here.



but nvm, i overreacted. It looks like i'm L2 in a game of seven. That's no big deal. I thought maybe there was another vote back there.
I think Vi is genuine, but CFR is just being even scummier by waffling.

Vote:CFRiot

[popsofctown]

I have 4 suspects and there's likely 3 scum left. So what about voting my 4th ranked suspect is bad?e.

Lol math fail much? By your own calculation you just gave I ought to be town. Before we factor in yoou making mistakes, which can go both ways. There's seven players lefty and you are voting number four. That's median. Average. Even chances. You aren't lynching svum. Youre lynching not- me. Which looks like scum behavior.

At vi , I haven't posted much this game because I'm not used to large games. And btw, if you think I'm obv serialkiller and cfr is obv scum, why kill the serial killer? Cfr might be a shot immune godfather with a partner helping him, isn't that a bigger threat??


Unless you're mafia who forgot which faction actually threatens the town right now, which I've been increasingly suspicious of.p

[popsofctown]

At vi , I haven't posted much this game because I'm not used to large games. And btw, if you think I'm obv serialkiller and cfr is obv scum, why kill the serial killer? Cfr might be a shot immune godfather with a partner helping him, isn't that a bigger threat??

Really dunno how Vi got "Sk claim" out of that. I'm not the SK

[popsofctown]

it must be that time in the endgame for Vi....

[popsofctown]

i read 1646. How am i supposed to dispute the crap you've thrown at me? I have. I'm posting less because it's a large normal. I was on every wagon i was on because i thought we were lynching scum.

It's a legit strategy for me to use "even if" reasoning to get you to the right lynch. The right lynch is the right lynch and right now that's CF Riot.

[popsofctown]

Total LOL at the strikethrough.

[popsofctown]

I feel I have been active since the game dwindled to few people

[popsofctown]

The caps on the lol were my itouchs doing, a little overstated. I laughed at your joke cuz it was funny

[popsofctown]

i'm not the SK. And i don't think you should tell the SK to kill MME. B&B seemed very town. I realy don't know what kill I'd recommend for the SK though. NotMME and NotShanba are good shots though

[popsofctown]

CFR hasn't flipped....

[popsofctown]

Is that a slip? It seems a slip. Dependent on the actual flip.

[popsofctown]

If you were nicer to your so he'd shoot every night :p

[popsofctown]

Since you guys were all "oh pops is sk so let's ignore the obvious threat and kill him and talk about skdom all day", I figured I'd have to blackmail you guys to even live. So I changed my mind about shooting cesc and decided to assume two scum and no shoot, which would hopefully cause a 2 town 2 scum 1 sk day, which is lynchmafia or lose.

Looking back and remembering my reasoning, itwas the perfect decision, the liberal scum estimate was already a loss, even if I shot.

I think vi's preoccupation with the so hurt both of the two factions that were LOSING at that point, decreasing the energy spent considering cfr's claim. It pushed me into voting him defensively too. And as I said earlier, I would have functioned more like a big if you guys didn't start attacki me so much, which would have made a diff if there were actually fewer scum.

I'd like to point out that I'm the only one who killed any scum this game. ( joint or alone)

[popsofctown]

I helped kill yosariam.

Yeah it only hurt us d4.

Azrael should try harder etc

[popsofctown]

I dunno if iwas night kill immune.

I shot mm, light, armlx, and mykonoan. No shot final night. All my kills succeeded

[popsofctown]

I'm really sorry for the lack of activity in this game. I keep posting this and getting prodded, but I've been super duper busy. At this point, I've contributed so little I feel like it would be better if I tried to find a replacement for me.

Bb, you posted stuff like this the whole game. If you weren't actually too busy to post, you were lying about outside cirumstances, which many people consider to be cheating. ( try searching it in mafia discussion. )

It's a brokenly good strategy. If players can lie about outside circumstances, you become indistinguishable from town aligned players who actually got busy, meaning you have to lynch neutral-towny players who got too busy just to get people like you. At one point you said "this is the busiest time of my life".
You had a really good d1 IMO, and you combined that with what I see as a broken strategy (not cheating if phate didn't call it so.). To win. I was working on the assumption people don't lie about outside circumstances, so to me you were towntell for d1 and nulltell for having a busy life and posting no further. I didn't shoot you because I thought you were town.

[popsofctown]

It's not cheating because it's not forbidden. I do think it's an unbeatable strategy though. The only counterstrategy is to lynch everyone who ever had personal problems. Which doesn't leave as much time for real lynching.

I'm not good at explaining things.

[popsofctown]

I don't like that, because that means i have to replace out of my game everytime i have a research paper to do (if it becomes a universally adopted counterstrategy)

[popsofctown]

Didn't say you were cheating. I was unhappy though