Mafia 88- Return to New Catania- Game Over!

[Battle Mage]

Vote: Tornado

Blatant scum.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Vote Battle Mage

OMGUS!

Sir T

Vote: Tornado

Blatant scum.

BM

Unvote, Vote: Tornado

BANDWAGON!

BM

[Battle Mage]

vote: no lynch

obvscum

Don't like this. Although the random voting stage isn't particularly vital, it can often help jumpstart conversation, get reactions going, etc. This vote provides no information to the town that can be discussed later, such as voting patterns, etc. In addition, it provides very little discussion or reacting by itself, while votes on a player can help create reactions, and start conversation.

In fact, I find that depriving the town of information, even information this small, to be somewhat scummy. Although it's more definately not a solid case, it's a start, and I feel that this has more potential to get the conversation going than simply ignoring it and random voting. Therefore,

Vote: Hoopla

Unvote, Vote: GeorgeCarlin

Well done buddy. You just disproved your own argument. If voting No-Lynch didnt provoke discussion, YOU WOULDNT HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING IT. If voting no-lynch didnt illicit reactions, YOU WOULDNT HAVE VOTED FOR HOOPLA.

He left a trap, and you fell right into it.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Vote: Sir Tornado

Gah, I realise you're probably mocking BM, but please. Stop. Doing. That.

I think he's getting pissy because im not calling him by his actual username.

Ooi, do you think it is acceptable to 'mock' me?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Bandwagons are fun! (That and I agree with the whole 'no lynch is bad' sentamant.)

Vote: Hoopla

No Lynch is bad, but not really much worse than a lynch based on no reasoning atall.

I'm not considering a vote at this stage to be serious.
Why are you?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Vote: Hoopla

for not liking it when people talk to each other about important game issues.

FoS: Seraphim

I think you just missed the point entirely. Opportunism much?

BM

[Battle Mage]

By voting no lynch, what you did was make a vote that won't be able to really provide much information to the town, due to how obviously jokey it was.

It's the random stage. What do you expect?? The nature of it, is that all starting votes tend to be 'jokey'...

Although it's not neccesarily vital information for the town, random voting could help later on down the road.

Lol. Didnt you just say that it "wouldnt provide much information to the town due to how obviously jokey it is"?

Your vote, in fact, consisted of nothing more than half-baked OMGUS based on quote-mining.

Which i guess makes you guilty of UNDER-mining, right?

Another important part of my post is the use of the phrase "by itself". Although your vote may start discussion due to others commenting on how scummy the vote is, and create reactions, by itself it does not give the town any information to analyze so that they can learn more about your alignment. And that is something that I feel, especially this early in the game, is extremely important.

So you feel that later in the game, it will be of greater use to analyse random votes, which btw, are...random? You'd rather have that than something controversial that can reveal some weaseley opportunistic scumbag?

Bandwagons are fun! (That and I agree with the whole 'no lynch is bad' sentamant.)

Vote: Hoopla

Out of curiousity, what do you personally believe will come out of this wagon? Why did you choose to hop onto an avenue already being persued, rather than examine the reactions of other players by casting your vote in their directly?

Lol, i think you're trying too hard. Why are you complaining about somebody backing you up? Most of the information from the random voting stage comes from bandwagons. The last sentence doesnt even make grammatical sense...

BM

[Battle Mage]

Vote: Sir Tornado

Gah, I realise you're probably mocking BM, but please. Stop. Doing. That.

I think he's getting pissy because im not calling him by his actual username.

Ooi, do you think it is acceptable to 'mock' me?

BM

Of course it's acceptable!

:'(

[Battle Mage]

Vote: Hoopla

for not liking it when people talk to each other about important game issues.

FoS: Seraphim

I think you just missed the point entirely. Opportunism much?

BM

...I'm getting FoSed already?

I finid it odd that you're calling me out for being "oppurtunistic" for jumping/starting a bandwagon for a possible in-game reason, when stuff like that happens all the time in the random phrase for absolutely no reason at all.

You could have called it a 'random vote'. But you didnt. You tried to validate it as a reasoned 1. I'm pointing out that your reasoning makes no sense.

Sure, my logic may be faulty, but why call me out for it now, during the part of the game that tends to just be silliness?

Take your vote off my buddy Hoopla now, and i'll retract my FoS and apologise for being too quick to judge you.

BM

[Battle Mage]

...is this a trap?

Unvote

because I actually don't think Hoopla was scummy?

>_>

<_<

This feels like a trap.

Lol, im not entirely sure if it was a trap or not. The fact you retracted your vote doesnt make you look any less scummy to me, but:

A. I am a man of my word.
B. It is heartening to see that some people can actually accept when they are wrong.

Scum or not, i dont want you strung up just yet.

UnFoS: Seraphim

BM

[Battle Mage]

vote: no lynch

obvscum

Don't like this. Although the random voting stage isn't particularly vital, it can often help jumpstart conversation, get reactions going, etc. This vote provides no information to the town that can be discussed later, such as voting patterns, etc. In addition, it provides very little discussion or reacting by itself, while votes on a player can help create reactions, and start conversation.

In fact, I find that depriving the town of information, even information this small, to be somewhat scummy. Although it's more definately not a solid case, it's a start, and I feel that this has more potential to get the conversation going than simply ignoring it and random voting. Therefore,

Vote: Hoopla

Unvote, Vote: GeorgeCarlin

Well done buddy. You just disproved your own argument. If voting No-Lynch didnt provoke discussion, YOU WOULDNT HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING IT. If voting no-lynch didnt illicit reactions, YOU WOULDNT HAVE VOTED FOR HOOPLA.

He left a trap, and you fell right into it.

BM

First off, he disproved nothing. The point was that vote couln't be used later for any reason, and that it seemed hoopla didn't want to start a discussion, as it would draw attention to him.

This is clearly incorrect. If he didnt want to start a discussion, why would he vote No-Lynch? Unless you really think he was expecting people to go along with it?? 0.o
If he didnt want to draw attention to himself, why would he vote No-Lynch? He did the most controversial thing, which, in my experience, means he is very unlikely to be scum. However, those attacking him are pinging my scumdar quite significantly.

Secondly, I always have issues trusting the guy who jumps on the first dude who tries to make a point about something. Also the fact people seemed to start voting Hoopla, which shows he might be able to convince people who to vote for. Seems like someone a Mafia would want to get rid of, under the assumption he himself isn't Mafia.

Lol, i dont really see your point here. So you're saying that, if he isnt scum, those people attacking GC are probably scum? Lol, seems a fair enough assumption-its the assumption i made about Hoopla and GC.

I would say vote for you, cause if you are Mafia I doubt Carlin is, at least not in the same factin you are, again assuming there are more then 1. Don't get me wrong though, if you are town it doesn't show if he is one way or another. I don't see him as suspicious, so even if you get lynched and flip town, I wouldn't encourage anyone to vote Carlin yet, not until he does something incriminating.

I'll give you some words of defense though.

Rofl. I think you're floundering mate. If you wanna vote me, stop tying yourself up in knots, and do it! But you're gonna need a better reason than "he's picking on GC".

BM

[Battle Mage]

IGMEOY:Hoopla

Because I hate the "I'm going to do something scummy so I can jump on the first person who calls me on it to "encourage conversatin"" gambit. I've seen town people do it too often lately to really consider it a scumtell anymore, so I'm notgoing to vote you for it, but it never accomplishes anything and just makes day 1 muddy.

Ftr, this is incorrect. I've done it before and outted scumbags. the best example is ongoing, but if you want, i can hook out a completed one?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Also,

FOS:Seraphim

for falling into BM's trap.

Seriously, he voted for a legitimate reason, and then backtracked just to stop from getting FOS'd by BM?

The reason was not legitimate. If you think it was, i suggest you read the first 2 pages again. You're better than this.

FoS: Yos

BM

[Battle Mage]

Vote: Natirasha

Also, see sig.

Explain yourself

?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Don't worry Seraphim! I will protect you from this tirade of abuse!


...


Shanba smells.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Also,

FOS:Seraphim

for falling into BM's trap.

Seriously, he voted for a legitimate reason, and then backtracked just to stop from getting FOS'd by BM?

The reason was not legitimate. If you think it was, i suggest you read the first 2 pages again. You're better than this.

FoS: Yos

BM

Looked like he was voting Hoopla because of Hoopla's vote on George Carlin; specifically, because he thought Hoopla was trying to stop George Carlin from talking about the no-lynch thing. Is that why Hoopla was voting? Eh, probably not, although he didn't give any details. But that's irrelevent; Seraphim made a non-random vote for an actual reason, then backed down after a tiny amount of pressure, basically just one FOS from you.

But as you just admitted yourself, the reason was not legitimate, because Hoopla did not make any discernible attempt to kill conversation about his move. He merely responded in the way any townie would when confronted with scummy play.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Large post but a few issues Ecto:

1. You claim that content has been ignored. Yet, you do not deign to state what this content is. If you choose to do so, it might give your comments some credibility, and heaven forbid, give me the chance to respond!
2. Seraphim took his vote off before i withdrew the FoS. What do you hope to achieve by lying?
3. Is it a coincidence that you claim to be suspicious of anybody who is putting pressure on GC?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Vote: Natirasha

Also, see sig.

Explain yourself

?

BM

I think what Der Hammer meant was "what motivated you to vote yourself?" although I could be mistaken.

Perhaps. It just seems like a rather silly question, and the tone in which it was asked indicates that Nat should have something to 'answer for'...

BM

[Battle Mage]

If the 'ploy' fails, then it's just one wasted post.

No; if you are pro-town, then your ploy fails if it just leads to pro-town people fighting with each other all day. Which, in my experence, is usually what happens.

So, at this stage you believe it's very possible everyone involved in this debate is pro-town, under the premise mafia wouldn't bother getting involved?

Eh, I don't think any ofit is indicitive of alignment. I've seen the pattern many times, and I don't think scum are any more or less likely to vote no-lynch, or to vote someone for voting no lynch, or to vote someone for voting someone for voting no-lynch. Any step of that, some town people will do it and think they're doing the right thing.

I somewhat agree with you that this is largely WIFOM, but the way i see it is this:

Scum will naturally want to look as protown as possible. As such, scum are less likely to do something that is often seen as scummy, and will put them under scrutiny early on (such as vote No Lynch) and are more likely to do something seen as protown, that might stand in their favour later on (such as promoting good practices, like NOT No-lynching day 1). Town are less afraid to be controversial, because their win condition isnt to survive, but to out scumbags.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Large post but a few issues Ecto:

1. You claim that content has been ignored. Yet, you do not deign to state what this content is. If you choose to do so, it might give your comments some credibility, and heaven forbid, give me the chance to respond!

Umm...yeah, he did...

What his point is as I read it, is that Hoopla made a move that revealed no alignment information.
That point is correct.

Thanks, but i really hope this is not IT. 0.o
If his point was merely that Hoopla made a move that didnt reveal alignment information, then he begs the question of how ANY vote in the random stage reveals alignment information. Until somebody is dead, and we can possibly draw relationships between players, his vote was no less informative than any other. Granted, he didnt leave himself open to speculation about who he interacted with BY THE VOTE ITSELF, but by voting No-Lynch, he was bound to invoke a response, which itself would become the interaction that i believe George was seeking.

Now Ecto, i guess the ball is in your court, to explain how you think his vote for NL was less informative of his alignment than a vote for a player.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Just as I was about to berate you for not reading the game properly, to my chagrin I found that you had made your retracted fos a

conditional

statement. That would make it impossible for you to retract your fos before the vote was removed. What I saw was the bolded section.

This is why some people say 'reading is win'. I won't pretend to understand your stance on it. It isn't of any relevance anyway.

Now, as turnabout is fair play, you now get to go back and read GC's statements thoroughly for the answer to #1. You can even find the answer to #1 in my posts as I addressed that issue there. Both questions were already answered. If you can't find the answers, ask them again later after you've put in the effort.

Lol, nice try buddy. Sadly, that's just not how it works. You make a point, you back it up. If you dont back the point up to a good enough degree that it can be ASSESSED, then it is of no value.

As for #3, attacking people for false arguments is quite a bit different than defending their target. Trying to distract from the argument being made by presenting a different one? Go back and get the answer for #1, and see why your question #3 is based upon a false premise.

Lol, how can a question be based on a false premise? Especially one which was 80% humorous speculation.

Also- Please watch the attitude. You might be a good mafia player, but that doesnt mean you can boss people around and expect them to bite. Maybe if this was Kingmaker, and you were confirmed innocent. I dont think either of these is true here.

BM

[Battle Mage]

But as you just admitted yourself, the reason was not legitimate, because Hoopla did not make any discernible attempt to kill conversation about his move. He merely responded in the way any townie would when confronted with scummy play.

BM

I still need you to explan how George Carlin's play there was scummy, btw.

He cast a vote, which led to a bandwagon, on a healthy combination of inherently flawed reasoning, and utter bs. What is perhaps more unnerving is the fact that, i dont think he considered it to be a random vote-he seemed like he genuinely believed what he was saying...

BM

[Battle Mage]

vote: no lynch

obvscum

Don't like this. Although the random voting stage isn't particularly vital, it can often help jumpstart conversation, get reactions going, etc. This vote provides no information to the town that can be discussed later, such as voting patterns, etc. In addition, it provides very little discussion or reacting by itself, while votes on a player can help create reactions, and start conversation.

In fact, I find that depriving the town of information, even information this small, to be somewhat scummy. Although it's more definately not a solid case, it's a start, and I feel that this has more potential to get the conversation going than simply ignoring it and random voting. Therefore,

Vote: Hoopla

Unvote, Vote: GeorgeCarlin

Well done buddy. You just disproved your own argument. If voting No-Lynch didnt provoke discussion, YOU WOULDNT HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING IT. If voting no-lynch didnt illicit reactions, YOU WOULDNT HAVE VOTED FOR HOOPLA.

He left a trap, and you fell right into it.

BM

First off, he disproved nothing. The point was that vote couln't be used later for any reason, and that it seemed hoopla didn't want to start a discussion, as it would draw attention to him.

This is clearly incorrect. If he didnt want to start a discussion, why would he vote No-Lynch? Unless you really think he was expecting people to go along with it?? 0.o
If he didnt want to draw attention to himself, why would he vote No-Lynch? He did the most controversial thing, which, in my experience, means he is very unlikely to be scum. However, those attacking him are pinging my scumdar quite significantly.

Secondly, I always have issues trusting the guy who jumps on the first dude who tries to make a point about something. Also the fact people seemed to start voting Hoopla, which shows he might be able to convince people who to vote for. Seems like someone a Mafia would want to get rid of, under the assumption he himself isn't Mafia.

Lol, i dont really see your point here. So you're saying that, if he isnt scum, those people attacking GC are probably scum? Lol, seems a fair enough assumption-its the assumption i made about Hoopla and GC.

I would say vote for you, cause if you are Mafia I doubt Carlin is, at least not in the same factin you are, again assuming there are more then 1. Don't get me wrong though, if you are town it doesn't show if he is one way or another. I don't see him as suspicious, so even if you get lynched and flip town, I wouldn't encourage anyone to vote Carlin yet, not until he does something incriminating.

I'll give you some words of defense though.

Rofl. I think you're floundering mate. If you wanna vote me, stop tying yourself up in knots, and do it! But you're gonna need a better reason than "he's picking on GC".

BM

Voting No lynch doesn't seem all that controversial to me, as its easy to see why one wouldn't want to take the chance of lynching town. I'd assume he voted no Lynch and hoped people would pass right over his post and not pay it much mind. AFter all, he did vote, which makes it look like he's doing something.

Is this your first game on site? Over here, Voting No Lynch at any time where it is not an optimal play is something that people LOVE to jump on.

And thats a good summary, if GC isn't scum, one of the ones voting for him probably is. Though most likely it would be the one who lead teh assault against him, since anyone the town is willing to listen to could prove to be bad for the Mafia if he rallys them behind that person. Basically Scum already have a reason to want him dead. :p

That is on the assumption he is town, which isnt one id be looking at currently. It also makes the claim that scum are more likely to start a case rather than tag along to one, something which i also disagree with in general.

And my reason is more then he's picking on GC, my reason is GC would be a good target for scum to eliminate if he's town. So basically I'm deciding if he's more likely to be town, or if you are. I'm much more inclined to lynch you though, since that will at least show GC isn't aligned with you. Though sadly if you flip town we effectively learn nothing.

Joy. So you want to lynch me in order to 'prove' that GC isnt scum, excluding the obvious possibility of bussing, and acknowledge that if i am town, not only do we waste a day completely, but we have night to contend with, and you ignore the possibility that i am a power role. Joy.

Though between the two of you, I think I'll vote you. :p

unvote

vote

Battle mage

*sigh*

Why?

BM

[Battle Mage]

I disagree with the strawman argument that GC disproved his own case. He did not say that a no-lynch vote would

not

generate discussion, in fact, he said it

would

.

What his point is as I read it, is that Hoopla made a move that revealed no alignment information.
That point is correct.

He says a no lynch vote is useless if nobody reacts to it (which you also reference later in your post). This does disarm his argument, as he does respond, and so do several other players. A random vote is also useless if nobody reacts to it.

The bolded point you can use on any of the first page random votes. If you disagree, link me to a game where a random vote does reveal alignment information.

1: Hoopla - for using what apparently has become a rather common method of starting a game, and then voting for the player that began chasing after it,

when the ploy fails entirely if everyone ignores it

. Additional suspicion for creating the false statement that GC was contradicting himself.

If the 'ploy' fails, then it's just one wasted post. I've never seen a game where a no lynch vote has been ignored - please show me one. My retaliation further validated the purpose for my no lynch vote.

QFAT. If you're scum, i think i might actually cry.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Also- Please watch the attitude. You might be a good mafia player, but that doesnt mean you can boss people around and expect them to bite. Maybe if this was Kingmaker, and you were confirmed innocent. I dont think either of these is true here.

BM

Hello Kettle? This is Pot. You are black. (to prod your failing memory, remember ordering someone to remove their vote?)

I made a request, which was not unreasonable, and involved me making a concession aswell. If Seraphim has an issue with my tone, he can raise it with me.

As for making a point, and then backing it up, I made the point, I backed it up, YOU just simply failed to read it, then had the balls to make this response, even after it was pointed out to you before this post, and both before and after mine, that I already

had

answered the question.

If you're referring to what Yos2 quoted, i've already responded to that.
I'll probably be back later today. Really dont have the inclination for this right now...

BM

[Battle Mage]

I never ignored the possibility you are a power role. I'm just not ignoring the possibility that you are Mafia either. You voted GC. Ever though maybe HE might be a power role? That seems like a very weak defense. :p

It's not a defence. I havent got anything to defend AGAINST. You put forward the scenario that i was lynched as town merely to gain information-neglecting to mention that i might not be Vanilla.
Notice, whilst i have voted GC, im not expecting him to be lynched just yet. Mafia on Day 1 is best played when the town jumps about alot, and keeps everyone on their toes.

And I only acknowledge that if you are town and lynched, we waste a lynch on a town and learn nothing. But guess what? Same thing happens if GC is town. If he's lynched town, we learn nothing. Unless you can give me a reason why him flipping town yields any additional information, you're voting at the same risks I am. :p

Him flipping town will give additional info, just like me flipping town will. You then look at who put pressure on them. If he comes up town, we would think "would scum have attacked or defended him?" and attack accordingly. Same with me pretty much.
Btw, your point isnt that a vote for me is the same as a vote for GC-you need to back up why you chose me INSTEAD OF him.

next, Scum aren't inherently going to lay dormant or be active, I just tend to notice in a few games Scum like to take out those with an opinion early on in the game.

seems a little unlikely here, given we have 2 month deadlines, and MS players are timid of lynching at the best of times.

And on the Case of GC, its hard to tell how many people voted Hoopla because of him. But he both had an opinion, and people started voting hoopla after him, so its entirely possible Mafia would want him dead.

Only is Hoopla is scum. Pretty fundamental that! Scum dont mind keeping influential townies around who arent a direct threat to them.

And I pick you over GC for this simple reason, you've been rather redundant with yoru reasonings why me voting for you is silly.

-We get no info if you flip town? We get no info if GC flips town either. We are both taking the same risk if we are both town, so its a silly argument.

-Saying you disagree with the sentamant that Scum would start instead of follow? They can do both, so thats not much of a point. :p

- The whole 'I could be a power role' line? Same goes for GC.

Lol, i sense a logical flaw here.

You voted for me, because WHEN YOU VOTED FOR ME, i didnt really defend myself. But why did you vote for me in the first place?

In short, I vote for you for redundant and pointless defenses. :p

1. There was nothing to defend until after you voted me, hence your reasoning is nonsensical.
2. You have given me nothing to defend against-as you yourself have acknowledged.

BM

[Battle Mage]

As such, scum are less likely to do something that is often seen as scummy, and will put them under scrutiny early on (such as vote No Lynch) and are more likely to do something seen as protown, that might stand in their favour later on (such as promoting good practices, like NOT No-lynching day 1).

Ok...but, by the same token, town are also likely to want to "promote good practices". So I tend to consider it a null-tell, all around.

This is true. But it doesnt make it a null tell.

People who will vote NL at the start of the game = Town

Hence, it is a towntell.

You are probably right that. if Hooper knew it would attract him negitive attention, it would probably be a small town tell (unless he also knew we would see it as one..lol). I still hate the reflexive vote he made on GC, though, especally since

GC's reasons were logical

, at least in a first-iteneration kind of way. It's not especally strong, but I don't expect strong arguments that early.

*facepalm*

BM

[Battle Mage]

His response and others to the no lynch

still does not invalidate the statement that a no lynch is useless if nobody reacts to it.

Reactions to it are not addressed at all by that argument. Whether random votes are also useless does not invalidate his statement either. Straw Man here.

Yes it does.

The bolded point you can use on any of the first page random votes. If you disagree, link me to a game where a random vote does reveal alignment information.

Again, does not invalidate his statement. If you want to say that your move is as valid as any other page 1 move, then say

that

. But you aren't. You are making a bad argument in order to simply make an argument and in doing so, trying to make GC look bad, and that

is

anti-town.[/quote]

Don't be pedantic. Whether or not the point was worded correctly or not, the fact is, GC's argument was nonsensical. Rather than fill the game with irrelevant bs, how about we keep to the facts?

BM

[Battle Mage]

jesus....

This is gonna be a long game. I can feel it.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Vote: Natirasha

Also, see sig.

Explain yourself

?

BM

I think he is asking about the self vote that Nat does every game and every game someone ask him why he self voted.

Given that information, do you think it is wise to interrogate Nat?

BM

[Battle Mage]

unvote

FoS Seraphim

Why on earth would a townie, with no guilty feelings feel there is a trap somewhere?

BTW, I have changed my view on Hoopla. I don't think his early actions were scummy anymore. I don't think GC is scummy at this point either.

BM, stop multi posting please. It increases the page count too much and starts depressing me when I turn up at this thread after a gap of couple of days.

Lol, we seem to have this discussion every game. We voted on it, and the majority concluded that they'd rather have lots of small broken up posts, than 1 or 2 massive, frightening ones. If you arent looking for a long game, this probably wasn't the one for you.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I don't really see many town people try and look scummy right out the gate to find scum.

I can name at least 2 in this game.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Honestly with him it's a null tell. There are better things to talk about it seems. Such as Hoopla's no lynch vote. Is it a scum gamble or town gamble trying to lure out scum.

Can you envisage a situation where this can be a scum gamble? If so, what is it?

I could see a newbie scum doing it that doesn't know any better. (IE looking scummy because they are scum). I could see someone who doesn't mind pressure that has enough experience trying the gambit. I don't believe Hoopla fits either category.

Newbie scum would deliberately try and look scummy? Really?

So, you dont think Hoopla is scum?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Woah, Page 1 quickly begins the bandwagon train…nothing like a newbie to rock the boat.
Yay, haven’t played with an active BM in awhile.
Page 2, lost among the fluff between BM and Seraphim. IF Bm does anything, he does get conversation started.
Page 3-4 arguing over game theory. Jesus Christ..stop with the post pyramids.
Caught up…

Hoopla, no lynches are bad (at this point)…this is a newbie tell, nothing more.

Vote Sir Tornado,

I understand newbies attacking newbies for newbie tell, but you should know better…and even though you are not currently voting Hoopla, you jumped on that because…?

Why did you feel like Hoopla was scummy and deserving of your vote?

Good to see you mate. Looking at this line-up, we're going to need all the help we can get!
And yeh, its been a while since we've played together as TOWN.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Honestly with him it's a null tell. There are better things to talk about it seems. Such as Hoopla's no lynch vote. Is it a scum gamble or town gamble trying to lure out scum.

Can you envisage a situation where this can be a scum gamble? If so, what is it?

I could see a newbie scum doing it that doesn't know any better. (IE looking scummy because they are scum). I could see someone who doesn't mind pressure that has enough experience trying the gambit. I don't believe Hoopla fits either category.

Ask Battle Mage if he knows a player that has done scummy things as scum on purpose because town falls into a "too scummy to be scum" mindset.

"too scummy to be scum" isnt really used on MS, as only a small minority of us will even consider it an argument. But for it to work, you generally need a strong meta. Not really applicable in this case.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Guys, why are we not lynching seraphim?

Especially you, Sir T: what's up with the weak little FoS? Yos2 too.

I dont agree with Yos2's fos on Seraphim, or Shanba's vote on him. The way I read it, he voted Hoopla for first trying to generate discussion, then slamming down a vote on the first player to disagree with the move. At this point, when votes are used more as statements, or for pressure, than to actually lynch someone, I would have been more suspicious if he didn't unvote.

But nothing actually changed about the situation he was addressing: he only unvoted when BM called him on it. I don't see how you would have been more suspicious of him for

not

bowing to BM's pressure. I don't see what this has to do with statements and the purpose of votes at all. But perhaps I'm missing something?

Am I expected to read all your posts, BM?

Farside: I can offer a counter example. Ironically, it wasn't a gambit, as such, but the concept is the same: [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=300]

The two people who attacked me over my insignificant little lie were both mafia.

I agree with most of this. And no, i dont have any expectations of you atm. You're nothing to me.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Honestly with him it's a null tell. There are better things to talk about it seems. Such as Hoopla's no lynch vote. Is it a scum gamble or town gamble trying to lure out scum.

Can you envisage a situation where this can be a scum gamble? If so, what is it?

I could see a newbie scum doing it that doesn't know any better. (IE looking scummy because they are scum). I could see someone who doesn't mind pressure that has enough experience trying the gambit. I don't believe Hoopla fits either category.

Newbie scum would deliberately try and look scummy? Really?

So, you dont think Hoopla is scum?

BM

Newbies do look scummy because they are scum.

what?? :S

BM

[Battle Mage]

While I agreed that it might be a small pro-town tell, I'm confused as to why BM seems to be trying so hard to convince us that Hoopla is a 100% confirmed innocent...

I'm confused as to where you drew this conclusion from. Quotes?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Sooo...what's up with these 2 posts BM?
First quote you say you can name 2 town members that are trying to look scummy right out of the gate.
Second quote, you tell CKD that you'll need him this game due to the lineup, and its been awhile since you've played town.

Could you explain what you mean? It sounds like you are saying that you know 2 or 3 town members right off the bat.

I don't really see many town people try and look scummy right out the gate to find scum.

I can name at least 2 in this game.

BM

Woah, Page 1 quickly begins the bandwagon train…nothing like a newbie to rock the boat.
Yay, haven’t played with an active BM in awhile.
Page 2, lost among the fluff between BM and Seraphim. IF Bm does anything, he does get conversation started.
Page 3-4 arguing over game theory. Jesus Christ..stop with the post pyramids.
Caught up…

Hoopla, no lynches are bad (at this point)…this is a newbie tell, nothing more.

Vote Sir Tornado,

I understand newbies attacking newbies for newbie tell, but you should know better…and even though you are not currently voting Hoopla, you jumped on that because…?

Why did you feel like Hoopla was scummy and deserving of your vote?

Good to see you mate. Looking at this line-up, we're going to need all the help we can get!
And yeh, its been a while since we've played together as TOWN.

BM

I can name 2 players in this game who have deliberately acted scummy as town in order to invoke opportunism, at some point in their mafia careers. I'll give you a hint- one of them is me.

My comment to CKD was referring to the way in which you and Yosarian are pretty indistinguishable atm. It's very disconcerting when 2 of the most respected players in the game aren't meeting those expectations, and instead, seem to want to buddy up as much as possible. The other comment was referring to the fact that we recently shared a run of games where we were both scum together.

But, i'll humour you. Under what circumstances do you think i would "say i know 2 or 3 members of the town right off the bat"?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Don't want to go back teh page to quote, but this is directed at BM. :p

I did give a reason to vote for you. It looked suspicious to me for you to jump on the first guy who formed an opinion. Thats why I picked you over him. :p

That's fair enough i guess. I guess thats the same reason i reacted so strongly to GC at the start-he was very keen, very early on.

the rest is fine.

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM, that comment about Shanba and Yos "buddying up" and not meeting expectations is a real stretch. I really don't see anything that you could be construing as buddying up.

That might be because i was talking about Yos and ECTOMANCER. Not Shanba. 0.o

BM

[Battle Mage]

My comment to CKD was referring to the way in which you and Yosarian are pretty indistinguishable atm. It's very disconcerting when 2 of the most respected players in the game aren't meeting those expectations, and instead, seem to want to buddy up as much as possible.

:eyebrow:

How am I "not meeting expectations"? Just because I don't agree with you on everything?

And how are we "buddying up"? Just because we do agree on some things?

From where i'm sat, you've kind of rolled into 1 player. It's got to the stage where i cant tell you apart without checking the username every 5 minutes...
I cant even say who's to blame overall, although on this page, it seems to be him blindly tagging onto you.

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM, your posts are mighty hard to sift through sometimes. I know this is supposedly how you usually play, but maybe try expressing key thoughts rather than everything in your head? At the moment I don't know what you're attempting to do, but I don't like it.

If this is how i normally play, why would you not like it?

The main point I'm upset with you is generating buddying claims on people who merely share a similar opinion, while also appearing to link yourself to others at the same time. I didn't like Post 35 jumping to my aid and ordering off a FoS,

I love to back the underdog. Blame Camn.
I defended you, and attacked GC. Because i'm not afraid of giving people insight into as many of my opinions as possible. I'm far more open as town than as scum.

and Post 112 I read as you implying you're both pro-town, although it could also be read as you were both previously scum in other games and you're throwing in your own alignment hoping CKD is. Either way I'm keeping an eye on you.

If i recall, it was a half-joke, half-greeting.

I think it'd be interesting to see if a majority would be willing to lynch me now, if we didnt still have 7 weeks to go...

BM

[Battle Mage]

lol

[Battle Mage]

Puta Puta is reading the thread right now!

BM

[Battle Mage]

But, i'll humour you. Under what circumstances do you think i would "say i know 2 or 3 members of the town right off the bat"?

BM

I've decided to pass over it. It's not the obvious from either a scum or town perspective. I thought you were saying something that you couldnt say directly from the way you phrased things and thought you might give a different response when given an opening.

So it was bs? Right.

BM

[Battle Mage]

doing a player analysis now. This activity is shocking btw. 10 out of 22 players are not participating as much as is reasonable at this point in the game.

BM

[Battle Mage]

But, i'll humour you. Under what circumstances do you think i would "say i know 2 or 3 members of the town right off the bat"?

BM

I've decided to pass over it. It's not the obvious from either a scum or town perspective. I thought you were saying something that you couldnt say directly from the way you phrased things and thought you might give a different response when given an opening.

So it was bs? Right.

BM

That's an assumption, something you are very good at. As I said, I've decided to pass it over for reasons that if I gave, wouldn't be passing it over. Dig it?

So it was bs? Right. I just think it'd be helpful if you were more honest about this kind of shizzle.

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM your meta is showing stop it.

How the heck would that be a BAD thing? (assuming i'm town).

BM

[Battle Mage]

zomg i totally forgot about this thread O_o.

How many games are you in in the New York Forum?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Vote: Hoopla

for his No Lynch vote, and defense of it.

Read through page 1.

unvote, vote Sensfan,

same question that went to SIr Tornado..but doubled for you because you are doing it after only reading page one. This looks like someone who is trying to look like they are participating but not really doing anything.

also explain to me why voting after reading only page or 1 or page 3, when the rest of the group is on page 7 is pro-town.

Actually CKD, im less certain about Sens here. On the one hand he isnt really making reasoned votes, but he is certainly casting the net wide, something that is, in my mind, a strong town tell. Of course, he could easily be scum, trying to be seen like this, but if this was the case, why would he tunnel-vision so quickly?

This doesnt seem out of character for him.

BM

[Battle Mage]

CKD, while I was third person on that wagon, I think I gave a bit of hint that I did not like that no lynch in my second post in the game before any one else had voted him, and I would have voted him at that point had I not been trying to rile BM (and, yes BM, you guessed the correct reason). Furthermore, the wagon wasn't exactly hot. GC, having voted Hoopla was getting some flak for doing so.

(still waiting for your answer Seraphim)

So you didnt join immediately because those on the wagon already were getting heat?

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM, you feel wide nets are town?...I always thought wide nets were scummy..leaves people open to manuver their vote without too much crap from anyone....I dont really feel like Sens is casting a wide net though. two votes is hardly a wide net in a 22 person game

Bearing in mind he's made 3 vote switches after reading as many pages, i think that classes as casting the net wide. And yes, i think they are protown, because generally scum will try and go after 1 or 2 people really hard, for consistency points, and won't want to alienate themselves by declaring further targets.

Also

Unvote

BM

[Battle Mage]

Well, for now I"m satisfied with my little squables with BM. Time to turn my focus onto another man.

And that man is.......Der Hammer
DUN DUN DUNN!!!!

He has yet to comment on any major event, nor has he really said ANYTHING relevant, except point out what FoS was to me.

As with the original reason for going after Hoopla, there really isn't a lot we can gauge from Der Hammers actions so far today. Therefore I'd like to see some more thoughts of the Hammer of Der posted in the near future. I'll try and sift through to find the other people who are mostly inactive and haven't posted much relevent soon, but I"m to tired to dig through all this again right now. :p

Not sure this is really a relevant post to be honest? There were people who were less active than me which you seemingly ignored, yet you plucked me from the crowd. I will try and make my thoughts more known soon on the main events of the day.

You were more active without actually contributing anything though. Seemed like a way to make people think you were active without actually giving town anything to gauge you on. In addition people who post less would look more suspicious then the guy who keeps posting.

And as I told Farside, there were others like you, you just happened to be at the top of my head. Possibly because I think Hammer of Der sounds cool. :p

I disagree with the premise here. I'd say lurking in plain sight is generally picked up on more than hardcore lurking.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Unvote, Vote: Sir Tornado

I like your style.

Unvote Vote: Sir Tornado

I completely agree with BM.

Wait, what are you agreeing with me about exactly?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Still don't like BM claiming that Hoopla's vote didn't hide his alignment at all. Hoopla seems to be avoiding saying anything, letting the bigger dogs fight over the debate he supposedly purposefully started, which is something I really don't like.

This is true. I have commented on this since. But the NL vote did not hide his alignment.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I voted for a NL vote because that is the single scummiest thing someone can do in their first post.

BS.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I voted for a NL vote because that is the single scummiest thing someone can do in their first post.

BS.

BM

Absolutely anything else will show alignment. NL will not.

Please explain how a random vote is any more telling than a NL vote.

BM

[Battle Mage]

this squabble is boring me. I think we've established that Sens is a good contingency lynch.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Voting No-Lynch is not random either. You havent yet explained how a 'random vote' on day 1 can "prove alignment".

BM

[Battle Mage]

Ya know what. To hell with it!

Unvote, Vote: Sensfan

BM

[Battle Mage]

nah. let's just string Sens up!

[Battle Mage]

^i agree with that man

[Battle Mage]

The guy with no avatar is right!

Vote: Sensfan

BM

[Battle Mage]

trust me, you rather have this than us butting heads...which will also probably happen this game.

Lol, this is more of a meta thing anyway, isnt it?

BM

[Battle Mage]

i am supremely disturbed by yos' lurkerhunt

I'm slightly resentful that, after spending some time constructing a list of this nature, yos decided to do so aswell.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Screw it, i'll post it anyway.

Non-Contributors

Puta Puta – Deliberately lurking. Has been seen on site, in New York Forum, but not posted once.
GeorgeCarlin – 2 posts so far-both full of content, but silence for the last few days. Poorly reasoned opening vote-construed to look like more than a random one. I kinda like the way he is watching people who follow his vote, but his reasoning for this is again poor.
Xyzzy – Playing for time. Lurker.
Sensfan – Responded to Prod today. No other posts.
Panda – Not posted thus far. Either absent, or lurking.
ZTR – Seems lazy. Hasn’t posted any content so far. Not sure if he intends to play for the full duration.
Natirasha – Random Self-Vote. Unlimited V/LA since then.
Killa Seven – Posted once-no content. Fairly standard for him.
Tubby – Made a random vote, and has been legitimately V/LA since.
Militant – Nothing insightful so far. Has been nearly active enough at this point and legitimately V/LA, but promised comments and has not delivered within his self-imposed time limit.

Unvote, Vote: Puta Puta

BM

[Battle Mage]

zomg i totally forgot about this thread O_o.

how many games are you in, in the New York Forum?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Screw it, i'll post it anyway.

Non-Contributors

Puta Puta – Deliberately lurking. Has been seen on site, in New York Forum, but not posted once.
GeorgeCarlin – 2 posts so far-both full of content, but silence for the last few days. Poorly reasoned opening vote-construed to look like more than a random one. I kinda like the way he is watching people who follow his vote, but his reasoning for this is again poor.
Xyzzy – Playing for time. Lurker.
Sensfan – Responded to Prod today. No other posts.
Panda – Not posted thus far. Either absent, or lurking.
ZTR – Seems lazy. Hasn’t posted any content so far. Not sure if he intends to play for the full duration.
Natirasha – Random Self-Vote. Unlimited V/LA since then.
Killa Seven – Posted once-no content. Fairly standard for him.
Tubby – Made a random vote, and has been legitimately V/LA since.
Militant – Nothing insightful so far. Has been nearly active enough at this point and legitimately V/LA, but promised comments and has not delivered within his self-imposed time limit.

Unvote, Vote: Puta Puta

BM

When did you make this list? Nat has since returned and tubby has made several comments pretty much confirming that he is a lurker who needs to be lynched. Militant has also made several comments and is participating. Sensfan has posted quite a few times. Are you reading this game, BM?

yeh i made it a few days ago, but didnt finish the Contributors section so didnt post it. But i wanted to at least show i had made some effort

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM, what exactly is the purpose of posting an out of date lurker list?

And why would you then vote based on that?

because the part i voted on was still valid.

BM

[Battle Mage]

When did you make this list? Nat has since returned and tubby has made several comments pretty much confirming that he is a lurker who needs to be lynched. Militant has also made several comments and is participating. Sensfan has posted quite a few times. Are you reading this game, BM?

The same question could be asked of you. In post 252 BM said that he was constructing a list of lurkers but Yos decided to as well so BM did not need to post his. BM then said post 259 "screw it", BM decided to post his lurker list as well. The list must have been compiled roughly about the same time as Yos's was. Which explains why it is now inaccurate because as you said some of the people on the list have now started to post.

thanks mate.

BM

[Battle Mage]

getting slammed right now at work..hoping to get to this thread in the next 1-2 days...only have time for a line or two...

rofl. Dirty Dog!

BM

[Battle Mage]

OH HAI THAR.

jester?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Ok, if you get the Mod's approval for me to not post for say, 3 weeks, then thats cool with me. Dont expect me to follow the game as it progresses though.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Yes, but...

I don't want the info to be only about BM. He's not the only player we have to read in this game.

BM, I think that's possibly a bit dramatic. If you could, say, limit yourself to posting thoughts on at most one thing per page for a bit?

Not really viable. I like to reply to everything i see so i'm up to date.

Consider me V/LA from this game until i get prodded.

BM

[Battle Mage]

oh and before i go:

Unvote, Vote: Shanba

In case this is a ploy to get me out of the way

BM

[Battle Mage]

Consider me V/LA from this game until i get prodded.

BM: If you do that, then whatever Shanba thinks, I'll vote you for lurking, just so you know.

Ironic really. Maybe i forgot about the game?

Sorry, just the incessant bickering about non-game related stuff is grating on me. You guys sort it out amongst yourselves.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Consider me V/LA from this game until i get prodded.

BM: If you do that, then whatever Shanba thinks, I'll vote you for lurking, just so you know.

Ironic really. Maybe i forgot about the game?

Basically, any time anyone says "I am going to lurk now" and then actually does it and stops posting, I think it's vote-worthy. And if you say "I'm going to lurk now" and then do, it's pretty clearly not "forgetting about the game". it's lurking stratigically for whatever reason, and that's just not something the town can allow.

It's only lurking strategically if i have something game-related to gain by it. The fact that i am lurking (and not doing a very good job of it atm) because i'm tired of arguing over non-issues, and i think with the deadlines in this game such as they are, we have almost TOO MUCH time on our hands, is not strategic. It's merely not especially pro-active.

Sorry, just the incessant bickering about non-game related stuff is grating on me. You guys sort it out amongst yourselves.

:eyebrow: What "non-game related stuff"?

[/quote]

Discussing whether me posting or not is helpful.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Going to the list for replacements for GeorgeCarlin and ZTR.

Tubby216 (5): Seraphim, Hoopla, SensFan, militant, OhGodMyLife
Shanba (2): Mattle Bage, sobeahero
Battle Mage (2): Natirasha, Der Hammer
Sensfan (1) - curiouskarmadog
Sir Tornado (1): Shanba
OhGodMyLife (1) - Ectomancer
xyzzy (1) - farside22
CuriousKarmaDog (1) - tubby216
Natirasha (1): Natirasha
Killa Seven (1): Yosarian2
Hoopla (1)- (GeorgeCarlin)

Not voting: Sir Tornado, xyzzy, Puta Puta, vollkan, Killa Seven, (ZTR)

22 alive, 12 to lynch.

Mattle Bage? You've GOT to be kidding me...

MB

[Battle Mage]

Puta Puta is obviously the best lynch today.

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM you turned by mind to mush in trying to read through with your spamming. I plead with you to stop just for the sake of any replacements that may be needed in this game.

See, Yos? I really cant win. :'(

BM

[Battle Mage]

Natirasha-over aggressive maybe?

BM

[Battle Mage]

tubby is softclaiming. As for WHAT, who knows...

[Battle Mage]

Okay, I'm going to be unable to return to the world of teh web for a while, so Imma need replace.

This makes me sad panda.

speakin of Panda's, I will take it as a PERSONAL INSULT if you choose to leave this game.

BM

[Battle Mage]

In own defense here post sub # 46 I mention I will be V/LA for four days

this is true indeed.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Okay, I'm going to be unable to return to the world of teh web for a while, so Imma need replace.

This makes me sad panda.

speakin of Panda's, I will take it as a PERSONAL INSULT if you choose to leave this game.

BM

Why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiB1nSXQ ... re=related

rofl

[Battle Mage]

FoS: Xyzzy

Why did you vote Puta Puta when you clearly ought to have voted me?

BM

[Battle Mage]

lol, i LAUGH in the face of ppl who struggle to get replacements

BM

[Battle Mage]

rofl. Initiative! I like it!

And dw Tubby-the education is tough, but worthwhile in the end.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Shanba needs to be shot. For being a general Content Nazi.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I agree with that rule.

My rule is somewhat broader: You always lynch anyone who votes themself.

Unvote, Vote: BM

Good luck with that.

Unvote, Vote: Puta Puta

Cop in both your games? Seems a bit far-fetched to me.

BM

[Battle Mage]

ok, Sir T is making alot of sense.

Unvote, Vote: Xyl

BM

[Battle Mage]

xyl is obvscum.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Puta Puta, I'll unvote you if you explain what you've been thinking so far this game.

looking for an escape route-a way to unvote without looking conspicuous.

Not a post you would see from a townie- if you think someone is scum, why would their thoughts on the game be enough to make you unvote, unless the vote was PURELY for lurking, which isnt enough for a vote anyway.

BM

[Battle Mage]

That's it?

panicking when no escape route is made available.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I agree with that rule.

My rule is somewhat broader: You always lynch anyone who votes themself.

Claims this as a valid policy, but fails to follow it up, when i self-vote. Claiming to hold an opinion but being too afraid of controversy to back it up is scummy.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I agree with that rule.

My rule is somewhat broader: You always lynch anyone who votes themself.

Claims this as a valid policy, but fails to follow it up, when i self-vote. Claiming to hold an opinion but being too afraid of controversy to back it up is scummy.

BM

Point fails by him replacing in after that.

Lol, read the game damnit!

BM

[Battle Mage]

I agree with that rule.

My rule is somewhat broader: You always lynch anyone who votes themself.

Claims this as a valid policy, but fails to follow it up, when i self-vote. Claiming to hold an opinion but being too afraid of controversy to back it up is scummy.

BM

I hope no one is stupid enough to think that my policy requires me to vote someone who self-votes and unvotes in the same post. Your transparent attempt to frame me is noted.

In other words, non-serious self votes don't count.

You should have clarified your policy earlier. How do you gauge if a vote is serious or not?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Puta Puta, I'll unvote you if you explain what you've been thinking so far this game.

looking for an escape route-a way to unvote without looking conspicuous.

Not a post you would see from a townie- if you think someone is scum, why would their thoughts on the game be enough to make you unvote, unless the vote was PURELY for lurking, which isnt enough for a vote anyway.

BM

The vote is PARTIALLY for lurking, I'm surprised you didn't think of that possibility.

So the fact he is lurking is what's tipping the balance? I find that rather weak...

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM 381: Slightly worrying, as I've used that line myself as scum.

militant 402: "beginning to annoy me" is not my favorite reason for a vote

SirT 404: Leaving a trail is good. Suspicion on BM noted. "deliberate" ambiguous playstyle, antitown.

Ectomancer 411: Yes.

BM 488: BM calling me "obvscum" means I'm playing right

Yos2 499: I agree with Yosarian2

BM 514: BM shows no evidence of considering whether my policy is a good idea

skitzer general: Where's that analysis?

OMGUS. And ftr, it's fairly obvious to everyone here that your policy is completely idiotic, and barely even a policy, given that you haven't really thought/spelt out the specifics of it. Self-voting is clearly not a scumtell, which is why i see your pretending that is is, as scummy.

BM

[Battle Mage]

OMGUS. And ftr, it's fairly obvious to everyone here that your policy is completely idiotic, and barely even a policy, given that you haven't really thought/spelt out the specifics of it. Self-voting is clearly not a scumtell, which is why i see your pretending that is is, as scummy.

BM

Allow me to necro to state some things clearly for everyone:

1. If you are part of an Uninformed Majority (
   i.e.
   Town) in a game I am moderating and contribute to your own lynch by self-voting, I will consider you modkilled for violating your Win Condition, absent other circumstances^*.
   
2. If you contribute to your own lynch as a pro-town semi-experienced or IC player in a Newbie Game, as List Moderator I will ban you from ICing ever again^**.
   
3. If you contribute to your own lynch by self-voting (absent other circumstances^*) and turn out to be pro-town, I will not knowingly play with you again.

That is all.

^* I will never run a game with Lynchers or Jesters. It is possible some other mechanic could make this a viable strategy, but I will make that explicit in your Role PM.
^** There is an ongoing NG where this happened; please don't discuss it here until that game is over. I've already spoken to that player.

link

Where in that quote does Flay say that self-voting is scummy?

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM, connect the dots. If it is against the rules of the game to be on your own lynch as town without a good reason, then anyone who is self-voting with intent to be on their own lynch is either (a) not town, (b) possessed of a good reason, or (c) breaking the rules. Cases 'a' or 'b' are good reasons to lynch the person. Case 'c' is handled by extra-game mechanisms.

Firstly, Flay mentioned being 'on your own lynch', not you. You simply said that self-voting itself was scummy, and didnt make the distinction between the situation in which it takes place.
Secondly, I have no idea why Flay would limit his ruling to townies- self-lynching is just as harmful to the scum win condition as it is to the town one.
Thirdly, you assume Flay's post was without an agenda. The fact is, he clearly made it with the intention of turning self-voting into a scumtell, by removing the townie element. THE FACT HE MADE THE POST ATALL, IS PROOF THAT SUCH AN ELEMENT

DOES

EXIST. In other words, you have disproved your own argument- that self-voting is a scumtell.
Fourthly, Mr Flay is a clever man, but he isn't god. Nor does he moderate the majority of the games on site. You should take everything you read with a pinch of salt, or you might end up with egg on your face.
Fifthly, your option b does not constitute a good reason to lynch someone. It's lynching someone for stupidity.

I hope i've settled your concerns.

BM

[Battle Mage]

have you played with me before?

No, but I'm currently doing a research project on people who adopt deliberately antitown playstyles, and I'd like your input.

would you mind awfully sticking to the game?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Tubby, he's not fishing. Fishing implies subtly trying to get you to reveal your role; i.e, not out and out asking you to claim.

I disagree with your definition. Considering the real life analogy, fishing can be done subtly or by setting off explosives under the water. Likewise, fishing in terms of trying to find out rolebased information, can be done subtly or by straight out asking.

BM

[Battle Mage]

"I'm playing badly because I don't want to be night killed"

I never said I was playing "badly". I just meant that I wasn't trying to be "obviously" townie which I usually am (regardless of my role) early on in the game.

i agree with Xyl. This doesnt sit well with me either...

Unvote

BM

[Battle Mage]

vote: killa seven

Contribute or die. I'd prefer the former, but I'd settle for the latter.

argh lol.

ReVote: Xyl

I guess i spoke too soon. xD

BM

[Battle Mage]

vote: killa seven

Contribute or die. I'd prefer the former, but I'd settle for the latter.

argh lol.

ReVote: Xyl

I guess i spoke too soon. xD

BM

I'd explain myself but there's already a thread on why lurker hunting is good.

I love you too, BM.

I have no issue with lurkerhunting. My qualm with your post, was that you felt you had to revalidate your actions in an attempt to look more reasonable.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Votecount

:

Tubby216 (7): SensFan, Yosarian2, Hoopla, Der Hammer, OhGodMyLife, xyzzy, Natirasha,
OhGodMyLife (2) - farside22, tubby216,
Xylthixlm (2): Sir Tornado, Battle Mage
Natirasha (1): Shanba
curiouskarmadog (1): iamausername
killa seven (1): Xylthixlm

not voting: Killa Seven, skitzer, curiouskarmadog, militant, (Puta Puta), Seraphim, vollkan, Ectomancer

Also note: Tubby's post where he said he was an 'honest and hardworking citizen' would have resulted in modkill for quoting, or faking the quotation of, a mod PM, were it not for the fact that that particular PM is on the first page.

Anyone not removing their vote from Tubby after this post is scum.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Assuming you now understand, i'll allow you to explain why you are now virtually confirmed town.

BM

[Battle Mage]

because it's a mokill offense to quote your pm in the game thread , see page 1 rule 11

Correct. Quoting, or pretending to, directly quote a phrase from a role pm is modkillable- because if you were really a vanilla townie, and that pm had not been made public, then other vanilla townies would have known you definitely were an actual townie. Since the PM is public, there it is no evidence either way as to whether you are an actual townie, a scum fakeclaiming, or another town role fakeclaiming, so you be will allowed to live.

Fonz, with all due respect, may i remind you that this is not a newbie game. I dont think any of us have any excuse to be unclear on the rules, especially given your comments on this page. I dont think you should be playing the game aswell as modding it. Furthermore, i dont think you understood Tubby's comment. -.-

Tubby- thats not the reason, as our gracious Mod, has (needlessly) pointed out. The answer is post 635, in which the Mod states that you would have been modkilled were it not for the fact that the OP contains a copy of that PM. If you were scum, you would have known this already, given that you'd have got it from there, and he wouldnt have felt the need to mollycoddle you to such an extent.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Assuming you now understand, i'll allow you to explain why you are now virtually confirmed town.

BM

The mods not confirming him town BM.

See my previous post. It is for this reason that i dont agree with excessive Mod participation in games. It's too easily broken.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Khelvaster in mini 551 was an excellent example of why mods should be as terse as possible.

I believe tubby is town

Qft. In fact Mini 551 is the prime example that sticks in my mind of why i am more than willing to exploit mod slips.

BM

[Battle Mage]

This will be the last word on the matter.

What is modkilling a player for quoting/fakequoting a publically-available role pm if not 'excessive participation'?

Again, if i felt it suggested anything about alignment either way, i'd have modkilled him. End of story. The point of noting that was not in any way to 'warn' Tubby, but to warn anyone else that that level of quoting is unacceptable, and will result in modkill for non-public pms.

Arent you meant to be posting in Red?
This is now an in-game discussion, yet once again you are participating. To an extent, you have now also indicated that i am town, because if i was mafia, you would not have argued with what could have been a mafia ploy. We're friends, and if you care for my advice, you should quit now before you do any more damage.

I'm not questionning your decision over the lack of modkill, or the rules themselves. I'm questionning the fact that you did not stop at clarifying once, rather you continued to go on about it.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Khelvaster in mini 551 was an excellent example of why mods should be as terse as possible.

I believe tubby is town

Qft. In fact Mini 551 is the prime example that sticks in my mind of why i am more than willing to exploit mod slips.

BM

Why did you edit my quote?

i removed the part that i obviously dont agree with, so i could 'qft' it. If you still want to elaborate, please feel free.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Unvote...Vote: Shanba

BM

[Battle Mage]

unvote tubby216

Maybe I'm underestimating scum-tubby, but that reaction feels townish to me.

I've been calling him townish this whole time, but I completely agree with you. I am absolutely against a tubbywagon.

Shanba realises Tubby is widely regarded as town, and desperately tries to make it look like he saw it first as it were. The whole tone sounds distinctly anxious. I mean, talk about overstating it!

The fact he didnt respond to my vote suggests that he wants to avoid scrappy confrontation if at all possible, and isnt confident enough to confront suspicion of him.

BM

[Battle Mage]

@BM: Defending the player with the biggest wagon on him is defending a player who is widely regarded as town?

Yup. Because people havent had time to Unvote. Tubby wont be strung up today. But if he was, that'd be even better for you. Distancing from a mislynch and all that.

Finally, I've been defending or at least generally pro-tubby for a while now.

This is exactly my point. There should be no reason for you to be so desperate for you to emphasise this position if its been something youve felt for a while. A townie is happy to prevent a mislynch. A scumbag will want to gain credibility for doing so.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Sorry about my absence during the week. Lost internet access due to OS dying
Will catch up soon.

BM

[Battle Mage]

One more thing, your unvote is totally baseless. I am not being voted because I am lurking (or, atleast you are not doing that for that reason). It isn't a pressure vote to get me posting. So, why the hell do you unvote because I am being replaced? When you already KNEW I was going to be replaced when you put that vote on me in the first place? What is your logic here? Am I suddenly less scummy to you because I am being replaced?

qft

QFT. Let's string up Shanbatat.

BM