Open 93 - Near Vanilla: Game Over, Mafia Win!

[armlx]

See sig, LA till I get a new power cord.

[armlx]

MafiaSSK is lurker scum and needs to die ASAP.

Actually pre-emptive agree, except not he's not 100% scum.

[armlx]

SSK is a generally unhelpful person who gets replaced a lot.

[armlx]

Why hasn't MafiaSSK been lynched yet?

Its page 2. He will be replaced or dead by page 15.

[armlx]

Are you a Gimbo alt?

[armlx]

I suggest we don't answer who is the best player.

Vote retro

for digging at that and taking the SSK bait.

[armlx]

D1 auto lurker lynching is bad. Actually,

FOS everyone on the wagon except Darox

. I definitely think Darox was just baiting this.

Oh, and no more SSK votes, he is at L-2 by my count.....

[armlx]

Pretty sure SSK just doesn't do anything ever.

[armlx]

unvote. Vote: Gamma for attempting to start a bandwagon on me.

OMGUS much?

[armlx]

not an OMGUS at all. I dont care that the vote was on me, it's the making a bandwagon on someone who jumped on a bandwagon.

Uhh, yeah.... Your point?

[armlx]

Darox, I could go for Gecko. Meta is all fair.

Unvote, Vote Gecko

[armlx]

B/c retro's meta implies this is the norm for him.

[armlx]

ok...what exactly does "meta" mean?

Meta is the usual state of a person's game play.

[armlx]

. i voted for MafiaSSK because he was lurking and because i dont like the way he tend to play games. plus he hadnt updated his current games list which lead me to believe he was conflicted about his role and didnt know how to put it down. just because other people had voted him earlier doesnt make me scum just means people are on the same page.

That's pretty loose reasoning, sounds like making up excuses to wagon.

Again, it has been said SSK doesn't post really ever. Does him always doing this always make him scum?

[armlx]

Just a rather suspicious and thus shitty player.

The irony is not lost.

[armlx]

your definition of participation is loose. You finally make 1 attack in this last post, and its an OMGUS.

And if you break down and put my posts out of context, then that is what I did. Or it could be described as attacking wagonning and reasoning a vote swap.

[armlx]

I just state things as I see them and when they come to me, shitty tactic?

Only if those things are misrepresentations of the truth.

[armlx]

Darox, what distinguishes Sinesh's behavior from mine.

[armlx]

I like where my vote is chillin.

[armlx]

See above post.

[armlx]

I want a vote count, but I think thats L-2 aka claim time. No one else vote until this can be confirmed.

[armlx]

I want a claim from gecko in his next post.

[armlx]

I do not want a claim from GeckoJ. If he's Mafia he'll just lie, if he's a non-power role we take a hit (as in we pro-town folk). Roleclaiming is all bullshit until you have stuff to back it up with.

I don't get it.

Clearly you don't understand the purpose of the claim here. Lets explain step by step.

Do you agree, that barring extreme circumstances, Gecko is goingto be lynched today?

[armlx]

Ok, Doktor.

1. 2/13 > 0.

2. If you realize he is going to be lynched if nothing changes, why not give the chance for something to change if he is indeed a power role.

[armlx]

Doktor, the only reason someone would be lying is if they aren't town.

[armlx]

Also, usually you don;t straight up trust the claim unless you have a real reason to....

[armlx]

If he claims jailkeeper or doctor, yes.

[armlx]

Possibly the site timed out, or a grey screen of death happened.

Meh, pretty much the same though.

[armlx]

Uhh, yeah. Refusal to claim, not moving my vote pretty much ever.

do i know he is scum? no, not even close (probably in the 33% range) and that is how i feel everyones voting right now, just on a gut feeling with little to no substantiated evidence.

Voting someone because their chance of being scum is slightly higher then average... (3/12 vs 3/13)

[armlx]

SSK, what in the thread so far do you think is evidence that hints towards people being scum.

[armlx]

SSK, what in the thread so far do you think is evidence that hints towards people being scum.

Haven't looked too closely into it but there usually is evidence.

You mind making the concerted effort to actually participate in the game you signed up for and looking?

[armlx]

Hey, armlx, MafiaSSK, doesn't need your proof or reading to do this, he sees the popularity vote and goes with it! The fact that he was almost voted off has nothing to do with it and he's not just using this to stay alive! OK?

Jeeze, give the man a break.

Are you being sarcastic?

[armlx]

[armlx]

armix- why do you feel the need to push so hard for a role claim, when he is only at L-2?

Only at L-2? You realize how close L-2 is to lynch?

Just go back into the Mafia Discussion section of the site and find the various threads on the subject.

[armlx]

To summarize what I told you to go read about.

L-2 is really close to a lynch in games with 8 to 16 people (exception being D1 of 9 player games) if its . As close to a lynch as you can get without a strong possibility of just dying because a single person is dumb. If you get to L-2, odds are you are going to be lynched barring someone else also being at L-2.

Now, you don't want to lynch someone if they have a confirmable power role, correct? And you don't want power roles claiming before needed, so if L-2 is the last safe point to claim, its optimal for people who are at L-2 in a game of the appropriate size to claim.

Now, if you are town, you have no reason to not claim. If you are scum, you do (having to false claim is definitely somewhere to get caught in a huge slip and die). Hence, those who do not claim when asked to at L-2 (or in similar forced scenarios) are much more likely to be scum. I have observation statistic data to back this up to at least 80% accuracy, though its admittedly a small sample size (game I have been in since my return). And all the examples of people not claiming are in extremely extenuating circumstances.

[armlx]

Voting Armlx because he believes people should roleclaim at L-2 is as nonsensical as voting someone because they

don't

believe in random voting.

Fixed, as claim at L-2 is the norm not the reverse.

[armlx]

you still didn't answer the first question. why are you voting for him?

If you read the thread you would know, but it was because he was one of the most opportunistic among the SSK wagon (the most being retro, who has meta reasons to back up that being normal for him)

i have never played a game where anyone pushed a role claim at L-2, nor does it make sense to claim that early, or for you to push that hard when he didn't.

I strongly doubt this for some reason.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8429 is the thread to read btw. Since you are too lazy to find it.

[armlx]

so you are willing to try and lynch someone all because they are opportunistic, doesn't sound like a good case to me.

Umm, since when is opportunism not scummy?

[armlx]

You think this is premature?

[armlx]

I don't see why its not enough info. We have 2 wagons of votes.

I don't see what you are hoping to accomplish by extending the day either, besides maybe stalling out gecko's wagon long enough for him to get out of it without real reasons. If we are ready to lynch gecko now, the only thing that we are really going to gain out of 2 more pages instead of 12 is a bit more time for him to claim.

[armlx]

so you are fine with the fact that half the players have been nearly inactive this far in the game?

No, but I don't see what just extending the game is going to do for that.

I see absolutely no reason to extend this day further, unless you bring up compelling reasons to look into someone not named gecko.

This.

[armlx]

if he is scum, maybe we can catch one of his buddies along with him on D1.

I think we have. Usually, I look at those trying to stall the wagon on a person, try to derail the wagon by attacking the attackers, etc.

Hint: Its you.

[armlx]

EBWODP: Especially those who do so without arguing the person hasn't been scummy.

[armlx]

Also, your "ABCDE all haven't posted" things are bull shit. Of those, the only one that hasn't legitimately chimed in on Gecko is apothecary. I call that caught up.

[armlx]

Again, like I said, what do you think 10 more pages is going to do to the gecko wagon other then disintegrate it for little reason.

You are derailing it by trying to stall the game. Stalling the game causes things to fall apart.

[armlx]

you are voting him right now for opportunism, yet i would call half the votes on the wagon right now the same thing.

Really, which half? The half voting him for his wagon vote of SSK despite the fact that SSK did nothing?

Voting people for scum tells is not opportunistic in itself.

[armlx]

You asked how you are trying to derail his wagon earlier? See your last 2 posts.

[armlx]

Also, if you going to say "Other people here might be scummier, so don't lynch him", put out a case on one of said other people.

[armlx]

im not stopping his wagon by any means. as far as i can tell he is still at L-2. if your case is good enough then it shouldn't matter if i talk about something other than gecko for a little while.

But you aren't talking about anything other then gecko...

and in my last two posts i am saying pay attention to other people, it feels as if you are not paying attention to them. just in case you didn't know, you probably caught one scum, but there are still two more.

I don't see your point.

[armlx]

however if you give him time and let him screw up again

I missed this.

You know what really helps with this him screwing up again thing? A claim.

[armlx]

pretend he has power role, and he is at L-2 and a few people on there aren't real comfortable with there votes and they decide to unvote, and yet you have already gotten a claim from him. so even though he wasn't in danger of getting lynched, he still gave his role away and will get NK'ed for it

This is such an absurd situation I'm not even going to consider it. Look how long he has been sitting at L-2. The 2 people who could legitimately be worried (as they didn't vote during the growing wagon stage of it) are me and Darox......

Longer days are better for the town!!

Umm, longer days are better if they are longer because smaller wagons are fluctuating. Not if we just sit around with a large wagon doing nothing but stalling.

[armlx]

Sineish, especially in this set up where docs can help each other out mafia might sacrifice to hammer.

Hell, a random town could do that.

Gecko still not claiming. Vote still not moving.

[armlx]

That was my point - that L-2 is the correct time to be claiming, not L-1

I realize. I was just saying its even more of a worry in this set up.

[armlx]

Lol, the 180 is beyond hilarious.

[armlx]

Uhh... wanting to stall his lynch and saying look at other people is the same as defending him.....

[armlx]

nope just trying to correct yall, don't need to play with tunnel vision. and yeah i said look at other people because there are still two other scum.

Except both of those are things that do the same thing as protecting him does.....

[armlx]

fine i was protecting him by trying to find other scum... is that better for ya

You weren't though. You just sat around saying "you guys look for other scum".

If you had, you know, said "Hold plz, look at X,Y,Z that player N has done", that would be a whole different story.

[armlx]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MC_Hammer

[armlx]

That was totally unexpected from you, Mr. Not Defending Gecko....

[armlx]

its wifom

You said it yourself....

[armlx]

Can someone who isn't Darox tell me why the above post is scummy?

[armlx]

Can someone who isn't Darox tell me why the above post is scummy?

Awwww.

If no one else can, feel free to step in. I'm just letting the people who afatchic is least likely to call tunnel visioned do the job.

[armlx]

what response to that post could you possibly have that i would accuse you of having tunnel vision for?

The same one you have been calling me tunnel visioned for: Calling you + gecko scummy.

[armlx]

That's part of it. The other part is that he's saying he is A) giving gecko a free pass on his earlier actions, as he's "bound to make another slip", and B) saying he will hammer only when Gecko is at L-1, aka primo bus time as a lynch is pretty much assured.

[armlx]

I can agree with A), but where did you see the part of the L-1?

The someone else will agree, aka once someone else votes he will jump back on.

[armlx]

I endorse the above product and/or service.

[armlx]

So, your cases amount to lurking? Or is there more?

[armlx]

CO and K7 are known chronic lurkers sitewide. Just saying. Not sure on apothecary.

[armlx]

Gecko should have 4.

[armlx]

Apothecary, K7, retro, are those all still random votes?

[armlx]

Ckassic Derail your buddies wagon but will return later to look town Strategy.

Welcome to 3 pages ago.

[armlx]

yeah i gave up, ill just accept the fact that this game is going to be played with half the players.

Get replaced or play.

This applies to everyone thinking this.

[armlx]

im one of the most active players in here.

That's useful.

Was I talking to you about giving up?

[armlx]

Fair enough.

Agree that a longish deadline (2-3 weeks) might help.

[armlx]

I confused you and K7. My bad. I blocked his avatar like 2 months ago, and his wall of posts just kept going forever.

I still apply the post or get replaced rule.

[armlx]

that was the page before this, and this page was pretty empty before all my posts.

Meh, sure.

Mith pmed me notifying that he removed my avatar because people were crying about it.

Lols.

Needs more Gecko/afatchic lynch. Prob both scum, so w/e.

[armlx]

armix which do you feel more strongly about and why?

Gecko is the better first lynch, as if he isn't scum your defense of him is less indicative of you being scum, and that's the main issue with your play.

[armlx]

The issue with that is you keep trying to defend someone you say you think is scummy from being lynched. See the contradiction?

[armlx]

There's a difference between what you are doing, and what you are saying you are trying to do.

You are saying "EVERYONE STOP THE WAGON LOOK LURKERS ONE MIGHT BE SCUMMY!" and other wagon derailing things.

What is appropriate is "We should hold off on dropping the hammer until we can hear the opinions of X, Y, and Z, who haven't posted much"

[armlx]

I'm interested, how was the wagon being pushed super hard?

[armlx]

You aren't being attacked for going against the wagon in general, its precisely how you are doing it (saying look elsewhere without making a case, the whole "He's scummy but don't lynch him" issue, etc)

[armlx]

also...Armlx...why did ya say "super hard" seems like you were implying he said it was...which he didn't (as my read goes)

It was his implication as well. Pushing a wagon to the point is seems scum driven implies super hard.

[armlx]

Blatant misrep by afatchic. Nice.

[armlx]

Afatchic, you said it was a turn around, except the part that wasn't understood was explained.....

[armlx]

Right where I said the L-1 thing....

[armlx]

The fact SSK still has 3 votes is kinda lame.

[armlx]

And gecko does something even scummier for self preservation after the appeal to emotion about a self lynch.

[armlx]

Who do you see as scum right now and why?

Gecko + afatchic. Gecko for opportunistic voting on SSK and failing to claim, afatchic for trying all sorts of ridiculous techniques to try and stall the wagon as well as trying to get everyone else to make cases for him, and misreps.

[armlx]

Doktor, do you believe Gecko has been scummy?

[armlx]

I was wondering when I said that or voted like that....

[armlx]

you are def. going back up on my LOS.

To where? From "actively defending" to "voting to pull a claim, then unvoting without reason to derail wagon"?

[armlx]

If I wasn't voting gecko right now I would be pushing for your lynch so very, very much.

This.

[armlx]

You really need the answer to that question? Have you not read the last 5-10 pages?

[armlx]

Because you are indirectly trying to defend someone who you are calling scummy? The whole "other people are scummy" and not making legit cases when asked?

[armlx]

I blame you for that.

[armlx]

I blame you for that.

im sincerely sorry, im only one vote, im not keeping 2 other people from voting. they can make up there own minds

....

You actually kinda swayed the votes of 4 people at the moment.

[armlx]

L-1 notice.

[armlx]

I can't say I didn't expect that....

[armlx]

Did you read the part where he says he will explain tomorrow?

[armlx]

Do what? Say Dokter was suspect (kill related WIFOM)? Vote Gecko after saying that (stagnating day)?

[armlx]

i dont know why a bunch of small trivial things not the least of which is his metagame.

How can his meta be scummy? His lurking? The thing he does every game regardless of alignment.

[armlx]

Pretty sure he is.

[armlx]

thats what i thought, if he wanted to be hammered why didn't he self hammer

Self hammer actually makes no sense at this point for either alignment. Discussion is pretty much dead (knocks out scum reason to self-hammer) and the band wagon stalled once before so its possible it will again (slight chance of survival), and town never should ever self hammer outside of a few corner cases (2-1-1 comes to mind).

[armlx]

ZazieR, its actually not better at this point.

[armlx]

What retro said. If gecko's actions are enough to get him lynched already, a replacement isn't going to change that.

[armlx]

I have ZazieR, however it was never in a case where the person was at L-1 post claim, which is my point.

[armlx]

I got nothing.

[armlx]

I'd rather wait with him at L-2 till RBT can post thoughts to ensure he actually can today.

[armlx]

Please elaborate on the logic behind each of those in your next post.

[armlx]

Or half way between the two. Don't rush, don't stall.

[armlx]

The SSK wagon: I really didn't like it. I know you have to get random votes going, but this picked up way too much steam, too quickly, and it's hard to say if it was scum or town powered, but it was definitely not a pro-town wagon. I'm leaning scum-powered right now, but not completely convinced.

I'm interested, why would the speed indicate town powered here?

[armlx]

See, if you were scum, you would say that too, and your actions have not gained you credibility this game.

[armlx]

The Gecko

wagon

: Started with

good scumhunting

, and

continued to build from there

. I can see him flipping scum if we still want to lynch him today. With that, I will add my

VOTE:Gecko

Notice the word in italics Darox.

[armlx]

I think that he is intentionally trying to rush the day, so that there is less information for the town. This is scummy, is it not?

I disagree with this interpretation. This may have to do with you not reading the afatchic scenario in real time.

[armlx]

Woah, did retro just want to hear a response from someone, then hammer?

[armlx]

People are trying to misrepresent your misreading as a misrepresentation Darox.

[armlx]

afatchic is tripping up. He never said he thought gecko was town earlier, you know, when he was actually defending him.

[armlx]

Darox has never claimed it to be any of the above...quite the assumption!

Its pretty obvious it was....

yep you caught me, im scum. dang why would i make such a careless mistake. darn.

I can only imagine. It does happen a lot.

[armlx]

armlx - neutral. Where are you? You seem quiet.

Is this a joke? I've made 118 posts in this thread.

[armlx]

I missed the page 1-3 part.

[armlx]

I have legitimate concerns that unless Doktor is scum, he is in violation of

# Play to win the game.

Thoughts? Not saying this is indicative of him being scum, but more an issue that should be dealt with on a higher level.

[armlx]

Some how this fell off my watched topics list....

Post 350 - armlx: Why is it less indicative of him being scum if gecko turns up town?

No connection to defending a scum buddy.

Retro, I don't see your point. darox made an obvious typo, you attacked it, and I pointed out you were wrong. I don't see the issue here.

I'm strongly considering changing my vote to afatchic so we can just move this along. Has he claimed yet?

[armlx]

The reason they would have not to hammer him is that most of the other people who could have hammered didn't.

[armlx]

Assuming afatchic isn't lying, gecko is obv scum for the wagon swinging there.

[armlx]

lol why would i lie there? there is not point in trying to save myself, from my count im already lynched.

I've seen it happen. Its a strong indication you were town, but not a confirmation.

[armlx]

Vote Gecko

See yesterday, etc etc.

[armlx]

That's actually quite

compelling.

WIFOM

Fixed.

[armlx]

I've seen scum play dumb in this situation before.

This retro is why its WIFOM.

[armlx]

Discussing whether it was intentional or not is NOT WIFOM, armlx, and you should know better.

What WOULD be WIFOM would be "Or is that what he WANTS us to think?"

I see no difference between these two things.

[armlx]

What you said is exactly true. Which is why we solve said WIFOMs by looking at A) the direct effects of actions on the game and B) using historical statistics.

[armlx]

My point was that we have no reasonable indication as to which of the two his action was, and all your question could get into was a series of WIFOM.

[armlx]

just look over his entire post history this game. he has added absolutely nothing except to vote me because of a feeling. he doesnt even attempt to provide any evidence.

He does this every game.

Does that make him scum in every game?

[armlx]

i know it often appears scummy, but in reality anyone close to 'death' is going to try and appeal to the killers emotion especially when the killers are supposedly innocent townspeople.

I know I don't.

[armlx]

I personally think gecko's scum buddies manipulated the lynch to afatchic yesterday to buy him time.

[armlx]

Needs more gecko lynch.

[armlx]

No, its just obvious he is scum, probably with at least one of (kuribo/Doc) just based on the way they swung the wagon yesterday.

[armlx]

and now trying to swing to me today randomly. I like the Kurb lynch tommorow if we're right today.

Yeah, that too.

[armlx]

Well obv its not random. He's the easiest target for you to get attention off scum buddy Gecko, AMIRITE?

[armlx]

I said "don't lynch gecko after two pages of discussion"

and I said "I don't like retro's offer to go after lurkers."

I remember that being the driving reason to lynch afatchic.