Large Normal 212: Korts' Geriatrics - Game Over @1831

[Old Man]

Confirm.

[Old Man]

VOTE: Old Man

Look at that avatar and try to tell me it's not scum.

I strongly agree with this reasoning, this avatar is indeed scum. Kison is town for this.

VOTE: Old Man

On a more serious note, I genuinely am liking this post; there are a few reasons why I picked this avatar, one of which was to garner reactions and as a sort of social experiment to hypothesize if it would result in a policy lynch, or, at the least, a couple of RVS votes. And, those votes would more likely than not come from town, under the theory that scum would not blatantly vote for another player with such obviously flimsy reasoning, in order to keep up some facade of self-preservation.

VOTE: Old Man

Look at that avatar and try to tell me it's not scum.

If anything he is scum for trying to sneak into a Geriatric game as a hidden alt.

Ah, I wish to apologize for this. This was an entirely unintended consequence of forgetting the credentials that I had used to log onto the site, with my last login a couple of years prior, and with ten or so email addresses under my belt the "Forgot your Password" function couldn't really help me. One of our friendly listmods has come forward and reached out to me to help me secure my previous account, and I am grateful. This is a small issue that could be simply resolved by asking Kison for help who is in this very game, so it would not be too much of a worry for me.

With that said, since it has come to this, it would indeed make for an interesting experiment for me to proceed with this game as a hidden alt; it would certainly be a refreshing experience to play without the latent burden of proficiency. As a result, I do kindly request for the respect of my choice; that I will proceed with playing this game under the veil of a hidden alt, and it would be frowned upon to use out-of-game means to pry further, as it would give one an unbalanced advantage in the game, although, it would be fair if my identity was revealed through in-game means or somewhat else.

The mod already acknowledged that you had confirmed. Why confirm in-thread now?

Vote: Eddie Cane

The speed of which this wagon is constructed is rather concerning. How is it nothing more than a thinly veiled policy lynch? By my count, five out of eight votes needed to lynch appeared on a newbie player within a lightning-short span of time. I do not support this, and, in fact believe that such a rapid-forming wagon must be scum-driven, especially and most certainly if Eddie Cane's alignment is revealed to be town at some point in the future.

Vote:Old Man

My townread given to Kison does not extend to chamber for the fact that chamber is second to hop onto a bandwagon, as well as the fact that it is a naked vote here.

I'm on a "respect people and don't be toxic" kick. I was inquiring as to how proactive Korts would be in enforcing the relevant rule.

I'm thankful for the fact that Pine is standing up for me here, and his chivalry is something to be applauded, but I'd like to note the fact here that his statements are out-of-game related and completely non-alignment-indicative, which means, this can possibly come from scum.

If anything you're the one that initiated it as a serious point. I read MoI as half joking. I'm just using it as an opportunity to communicate my frustration with their existence to Old Man. I nearly replaced out when I saw they had joined. I'm frankly still somewhat on the fence over it.

I don't like the fact that chamber retroactively justifies his vote on me, which, should technically be an extension of RVS, as having serious substantiation, as well as the red flags that 1. He is hopping onto a bandwagon made by Kison, and 2. His reasoning was lifted off MoI's which came earlier and I had noted and discussed above. I dislike the fact that chamber failed to justify or communicate the above in the same post as his initial vote, and instead had to be prompted by Pine and his communication with MoI instead of coming up with the reasoning or original basis for the read himself. If he was so annoyed over the fact that I am playing the game as a hidden alt, I would have expected, or perhaps, preferred it if he had communicated it directly or earlier, instead of taking a passive stance and raising the issue only after it has been discussed, almost as if it is something thought out after the fact.

I read MoI as half joking.

You read correctly. I’ve mostly made peace with people’s need to hid behind alts for whatever reasons (none of which I get) and that jerks I try to avoid in games will use alts to circumvent that.

That in itself is fair, and I too read it as such, but I cannot help but be further concerned by chamber's reaction to this issue here. Being more frustrated about the fact that I am using an alt yet being slow to raise the issue beyond someone who was "joking" pretty much comes across to me as fake.

With that aside, I'm townreading MoI here thanks to his respectable analysis of the game up till this point.

Yeah maybe he's joking and all about it not being RVS ... still doesn't explain why he confirmed in thread. Given you confirmed via PM I'd have thought that would have resonated with you as strange since you didn't confirm after Day 1 started.

I don't find anything unusual about not confirming in-thread. It's generally much more convenient and faster to confirm through PM, by clicking the reply button and getting on with life. Furthermore, I am pretty sure Eddie Cane was being spiteful about the fact that multiple votes quickly formed on him for the trivial matter of not following the instructions in the PM and failing to confirm in-thread. I don't find the vote on KMD particularly interesting, KMD being the fourth bandwagon vote and his position on the wagon seems rather suspect to me as well. If Eddie Cane and KMD have some history with each other, it would form sufficient basis for an early vote.

I find your reaction to your wagon to be a little off.

Considering his entire response consisted of...

revelation: old people dont understand jokes.

...which is essentially acknowledging it as a joke, I find YOUR response to be a bit off. And frankly, as that's your second bullshit push on someone in as many pages,

VOTE: Chamber

Not RVS. Not a joke.

I agree here with Pine.

Breaking up this post into another one for brevity.

[Old Man]

I don't think I've pushed anyone yet? If you mean Old Man, my vote on him is entirely RVS. If you mean Magna, I still find it off that he immediately took CoolDog at face value. I still don't believe CoolDog. But I wouldn't call that a push. Asking probing questions is just my way of engaging with the game. I don't expect you to find value in every question I ask. I'm not asking them for your sake. I'm asking them for mine.

With that said, joking in response to his wagon, and then stating it was a joke is exactly what I thought was off? I don't understand how your post meaningfully engages with mine.

Perhaps more importantly though, this is the 2nd time someone has engaged with something I've directed at someone else. Please stop doing that.

Color me unimpressed but I haven't really felt that your questions so far have been really probing or in actuality very valuable. I remember your annoyance about the issue of hidden alts, which have not been really game related and in fact gives you an out to discuss non-game relevant and out-of-game topics, avoiding pertinent in-game scumhunting and also somehow allows you to call them "probing" and "engaging" when they are anything but. I haven't seen you engage with Eddie Cane or ask them a single meaningful question to determine their alignment, instead just a value judgement of "reaction being off" which is entirely vague and almost prejudicial when they already have a large number of votes for them for what appears to be an insignificant RVS reason. The fact that you are pushing him, almost seriously, without any convincing cause to do so doesn't sit well with me. How exactly do you expect someone to respond to you when you tell them, "your posting looks off"? I don't see how there can be a meaningful rebuttal or engagement considering how vague the accusation is.

But also, you did just not respond to the majority of my post. What push were you talking about from the previous page? How is your point about his thing only being a joke a meaningful response?

I was referring to your push against Old Man and the new one on Eddie (which is separate from the old push on Eddie, which was also bullshit.)

It is very strange to be defending people in a game of Mafia on principle when I have no fucking idea if they're worth the trouble.

I'm glad that someone else is seeing the same things that I'm seeing, and in fact earlier than me and also raising the issue early to promote further discussion. I like this. It's game-advancing and meaningful.

Again, although I do

like

the fact that Pine is sitting on the right side of things here, I am still concerned with the fact that I cannot find a smoking-gun tell or some form of confirmation that what he has posted thus far can only come from town -- I need to remind myself that his behavior can be faked, despite the fact that I

want

him to be town because

this

is the epitome of encourageable, sportsmanlike behavior. Fortunately, it's still early in the game, and I can wait to see what I am hoping to see for Pine. Long story short, good vibes here.

Something can be directed towards someone without it being a question.

Vote: Eddie Cane

Yeah, no.

This is bullshit.

VOTE: chamber

It'd be acceptable if you came up with the wagons or pushes yourself, it shows justification and initiative, but it's clear as day that that you are finding excuses to sheep wagons with the use of flimsily justified and fabricated reasoning.

Looking like we should lynch Eddie Cane, Pine, and Axelrod.

I also don't believe CooLDoG's claim, but I'm not terribly interested in the topic right now.

Why? Please explain.

I'm not replying to #51 if that's what you're waiting for Chamber. If you just meant 57 in general, nvm.

Your posts have been this and making RVS jokes.

Do you have an opinion on anything that has happened? Eg, Chamber v Pine?

Do

you

have an opinion? Your posts aren't much better.

So my plan for this game is to make geriatric games a living nightmare by applying my standard spamposting in a format that annoys everyone.

This will be my last post before I make extremely long mastina like wall posts.

Policy lynch me now or forever be annoyed.

You have been warned

Can you please not do this?

eddie axel insanity? Feels a bit too easy.

Do you have any justification for

any

of those reads? What makes your reads different from being copied off a Random Number Generator consisting of three of the names in this game? It looks to me that you are expecting us to come up with the reasons for you, which, after reviewing your pattern of behavior in this game, which you will then proceed to use, copy, and lift as your own.

2011 isn't nearly old enough to be considered an Oldie. Not a newbie at best.

@MoI do you think Pine makes those kinds of statements as scum without believing them as town? Personally I agree with you, if anything talking theory like that (best way to claim pgo) is a scum tell, you can talk about it truthfully independent of your alignment and telling the truth is great as scum. But, I don't see why scum Pine says that if Town pine doesn't believe it. Perhaps the degree of certainty is overblown (but until is follow up here and even after it I'm not actually sure how certain he is being). Is that your main issue?

Ah shoot I got his date wrong. That's embarrassing. I must have been looking at pine. Statement stands.

Instead of making elitist and pedantic posts like these, which, in this game happen to be limited, you could actually ask Eddie Cane, you know, meaningful questions, to determine if he is really town or scum? You know? Engaging him. And stuff. But you just have to comment and brag about your 2005 join date. Really spectacular, I know.

[Old Man]

I don't like the fact that chamber retroactively justifies his vote on me, which, should technically be an extension of RVS, as having serious substantiation, as well as the red flags that 1. He is hopping onto a bandwagon made by Kison, and 2. His reasoning was lifted off MoI's which came earlier and I had noted and discussed above. I dislike the fact that chamber failed to justify or communicate the above in the same post as his initial vote, and instead had to be prompted by Pine and his communication with MoI instead of coming up with the reasoning or original basis for the read himself. If he was so annoyed over the fact that I am playing the game as a hidden alt, I would have expected, or perhaps, preferred it if he had communicated it directly or earlier, instead of taking a passive stance and raising the issue only after it has been discussed, almost as if it is something thought out after the fact.

It was never meant as a retroactive justification for my vote. My frustration with you was completely distinct from the vote. My vote for you was entirely RVS. I've already said as much.

Votes in RVS are never really random. They are influenced by some form of bias one way or another.

Admitting your vote is entirely RVS makes it even worse, pointing to the fact your vote was entirely blindly bandwagon-driven, and especially given the fact that Kison at least justified his very own RVS vote earlier.

[Old Man]

To clarify my stance on Pine: I

want

Pine to be town here, but all my professional mafia policies force me to keep Pine as a nullread for now.

[Old Man]

I was saying that I don't know your meta (or anyone's outside of a couple players here), so I can't use past experience to judge your playstyle as likely being town or scum. I just don't usually see scum be as aggressive as you've been this early, so that leads me to not full-on SR you. There's also far scummier players than you. You just came to mind when I wrote my thoughts down, since I perceive you as mostly leading the charge on Eddie. I thought it was on Pine too, but I stand corrected there. I wasn't reading into meta though, if that's what you're thinking, since I dont have any to base it on, and I don't waste my time finding it either.

I find this a problem. Are you a very meta-reliant player? Why did you join a game where you admittedly know only few of the players' meta if you are so reliant on it?

I don't like the fencesitting read on chamber.

snip

If Pine flips scum we are lynching Tywin next 100%

Why? Please explain.

2.)

By my count, five out of eight votes needed to lynch appeared on a newbie player within a lightning-short span of time.

Why do you think Eddie Cane is a "newbie player"? He has over 6000 posts on the site.

Relative to the age of the players in this game, Eddie Cane would be considered a newbie player, with a join date of only 2017. Chamber had made the comment that players joining at even 2010 or 2011 wouldn't be considered "old", which, to me is pompous, if not frankly ludicrous. What would that make Eddie Cane? An infant?

How does this pedantic line of questioning help you or the rest of the town figure out the alignment of myself, or perhaps Eddie Cane? I find it a filler and trivial nitpick. I have written hundreds of words of content; is the definition of this one word the only thing that you have to comment on?

Again, I wish to express my opinion that the wagon on Eddie Cane is not necessarily entirely scum (obviously, it can't possibly be, though the fact that I believe it's scum-driven remains), but it is most certainly frowned upon, if not disgusting. What this appears to me is the prejudiced bullying of a newbie player outside the old-generation clique, that is not only elitist but also exclusionist behavior. The trivial reasoning given as a vote for RVS is sufficient, but the fact that this insignificant discussion about confirmations continues at this point and is marketed as a "serious" push is simply a thinly-veiled policy lynch. I don't know Eddie Cane's alignment but this seems no better than a random lynch, which, going by base probabilities, would net us a scum only 25% of the time.

...

I wouldn't be "sheeping pj" here, roflcopter, until I can determine that his actions are not scum-motivated.

[Old Man]

Looking like we should lynch Eddie Cane, Pine, and Axelrod.

I also don't believe CooLDoG's claim, but I'm not terribly interested in the topic right now.

Why? Please explain.

1.)

Eddie Cane's "confirm" in-thread seems to be a poor attempt to act like he was just now starting the game, implicitly suggesting he had not already confirmed elsewhere. His follow-up "non-RVS" vote is not convincing. He then tried to gloss both of these things over as "old" people not understanding "jokes." Neither post was very "jokey."

Since my vote, he is trying to act tough/uninterested until the bandwagon on him melts away. I see no reason for it to. He is still currently my best guess for scum. His play seems nervous, and he is very obviously trying to wait things out. Even now, instead of contributing, he just posts fluff ("I'm not answering," "I'm waiting... get back to me," "I'm not going to rush...," "the game finally gets interesting").

My response to this is in my previous post, I did read this response but had forgotten to quote it.

Eddie Cane's "jokes" not being funny or falling flat on its face does not preclude its intention of being a joke. It certainly can be the basis of a joke RVS post as a counter, but it certainly does not warrant such a push being classified as serious.

[Old Man]

I'll respond to Magna first before commenting on the other events in the thread, since he has made a post to address me directly. To clarify, I have been following the thread, but there is a necessity to conserve post count.

Firstly, I'd like to thank you for being the first person in the thread the address and engage me directly, beyond the occasional superficial and trite questions that I have been receiving.

Ok now that I have some time … my thoughts on OldMan.

94 – My suspicion of him doesn’t even need more than this post to generate.

Let’s start with the Kison read – that’s ridiculous reasoning. RVS is all about stupid reasons to vote someone and I disagree wholeheartedly that it is a Town tell to call someone scum for having an ugly avatar.

It is not necessarily a town tell to call someone scum for having an ugly avatar -- the important thing is context. The question is this: Did the manner of which Kison placed his vote indicate a higher likelihood of being town or being scum? In this

specific

game, do you think that scum would be more likely to vote me for having an ugly avatar, and being open about it? Why or why not? Definitely, this is not a blanket tell to be applied to any game -- otherwise we'd be blindly generating false positives with scum and their serendipitous RVS votes and corresponding reasoning. But I've made my case as to why I believe that post by Kison comes from town. If you have an issue with it, argue with the details and the aspects of the case directly, instead of dismissing it and handwaving it as ridiculous, when, clearly, you are the one who has misunderstood the premise of my read.

Next let’s talk about the two comments of mine he went out of his way to comment on – 25 and 47. The response to 25 is a rambling over-explained couple of paragrapshs that didn’t need to be posted at all. I was clearly joking since he’d have had to sign up as an Alt before the game even started so it clearly isn’t a scum tactic. Yet we get two paragraphs of blah blah forgot password blah blah emails of years past … blah blah respect my privacy. Not a single bit of game relevant discussion to be had on a topic that had already gotten too much play with Pine and Chamber’s back and forth.

47 doesn’t need any comment as it is my opinion that Alts are lame. He even agrees with Chamber’s analysis but somehow uses that as a springboard to scum-read Chamber which doesn’t make any sense to me.

And? Do we have a word-limit in this game, or are you perhaps a draconian English teacher who is here to supervise the content of my posting? I comment on what I want to comment on. Who are you to tell me what is needed and what is not needed to be posted?

Chamber was clearly acting emotionally and I believe, genuinely frustrated with the issue of alts in the game. I believe taking the liberty to explain my stance on the matter, as I was clearly the party being referred to, was only a natural thing to do. You complain that there is not a single bit of game relevant discussion in those paragraphs, but, isn't it an issue that was already brought forth and discussed by Pine, Chamber, and yourself? Certainly, even if the information presented isn't

alignment-indicative

, it is definitely

game relevant

, despite your mistaken choice of words implying otherwise. And, if I may, then you should point the same finger towards the above three aforementioned parties as well, for they are just as guilty, if not worse.

OldMan

– Specifically which posts by 47 are you Town reading me for my “respectable analysis”? I absolutely specifics and reasons why you saw reasonable analysis in those posts.

I am happy to oblige. Specifically, I liked your analysis with regards to Cooldog's claim, as shown below:

Spoiler: Quote Evidence

Why did/do you assume he was being serious?

Why shouldn’t I have? That’s a very heavy duty and consequential claim. Engaging him as I did had three possible outcomes.

1. He goes “Hehehe, JK” and I treat him just like every other player in the game.
2. He confirms his claim and understands why he has a timer on his lifeline. I let him have the lesser of my time in the game or at the most conservative 2 day / night cycles to do his thing unhindered to see what sort of outcomes he produces in scum-hunting before deciding if he needs pressed.
3. He confirms the claim but reacts negatively to the concept of a timer. In that case there is digging to be done.

In any case I thought it best to have his intent confirmed as early as possible. Do you think that’s a poor choice of actions?

Your analysis of the outcomes with regard to the engagement of Cooldog were not only accurate and insightful, but also succinct. The presentation was also a point in your favor in trying to communication your intentions to town. I also liked your transparency with your intent to

have his intent confirmed as early as possible

. This demonstrates genuine thought into the game. Finally, your question to chamber, probing him for

his thoughts

on your choice of actions, is also a good sign that you are attempting to engage with other players in order to determine their alignments. Of note is the fact that chamber never really replied you, or acknowledged your attempts to work with him.

The speed of which this wagon is constructed is rather concerning. How is it nothing more than a thinly veiled policy lynch? By my count, five out of eight votes needed to lynch appeared on a newbie player within a lightning-short span of time. I do not support this, and, in fact believe that such a rapid-forming wagon must be scum-driven, especially and most certainly if Eddie Cane's alignment is revealed to be town at some point in the future.

This is scummy. Firstly we see him using trying to sell Eddie as a “newbie” who is the target of a “thinly veiled policy lynch”. It is ludicrous to assert that a random RVS wagon (which is a very common occurance on MS) is in any way a policy lynch. The only player I see on the playerlist that might have warranted a policy lynch is Firebringer and this being a Geriatric game blunts most of the reasons for that. It is also a stretch of epic proportions to equate Eddie with a Newbie. As has been previously pointed out Eddie has well over 6400 posts on MS. If Eddie does turn out to be Town this is stage-setting by OldMan IMO.

Is it really now? Firstly, I'd like to point out that this "random" RVS wagon grew to L-2 within the span of 2 pages. Next, it may be no coincidence that Eddie Cane is the newest member in this game and therefore the most vulnerable. If you may excuse me here, there is nothing "random" about this RVS wagon. My position is that this in a devious concoction of plain bullying as well as scum bandwagoners hopping in for an easy mislynch. What's common about this on MS? The burden of proof is on you.

I've explained why I decided to use the choice of the word "newbie" to describe Eddie Cane. I'm not sure if you have simply failed to read my explanation of that point, or if you are actually cherry-picking extremely trivial points to enhance your argument against me, which, if is the case, I'd point the finger at

you

for being scummy. The conclusion that I am "stage-setting", bluntly put, you are accusing me of regardless if Eddie "turns out to be Town" or scum, is not a good look for you as well.

Lastly we get the following -

I don't find anything unusual about not confirming in-thread. It's generally much more convenient and faster to confirm through PM, by clicking the reply button and getting on with life. Furthermore, I am pretty sure Eddie Cane was being spiteful about the fact that multiple votes quickly formed on him for the trivial matter of not following the instructions in the PM and failing to confirm in-thread. I don't find the vote on KMD particularly interesting, KMD being the fourth bandwagon vote and his position on the wagon seems rather suspect to me as well. If Eddie Cane and KMD have some history with each other, it would form sufficient basis for an early vote.

Question 1

– if it is much more convenient and faster to confirm through PM why didn’t you do so OldMan?

If Eddie Can is the newbie you’ve tried to sell him as why are you giving him a pass for following the more standard site norms of PM confiming? I’d think someone who you truly believed to be a Newbie would be more in-tune with the mod’s actual request to confirm in thread. Thus I see a disconnect between the logic here and your “policy lynch on a Newb” from the same post.

As would have been obvious if you had read my earlier posts, the term "Newbie" I was using is relative. Your point is moot and this question does not need to be answered.

Question 2

– Why did you not ask Eddie what his reasoning is given you postulate there may be history between them that would make his “serious” vote valid?

All the above is simply from 94. But my dislike doesn’t end there.

There were more pressing issues to discuss and comment on instead of the meaningless questioning of a single player's reasoning for his RVS (or, self-admittedly "non-RVS") vote.

Why did nobody else ask Eddie what his reasoning is? Can you please answer me why this is somehow my responsibility?

All the above is simply from 94. But my dislike doesn’t end there.

From 96 I find his fence-sitting on Pine to be meaningful. He’s already given Kison a ridiculous Town read for terrible reasons and I’m still waiting on his response about his Town read on me to judge that fully. But this is the second time he’s said effectively “Pine keeps making good points and his defense of me is good but I can’t find solid things to actually call him Town he could be scum”. This flies in the face of ease of which he called Kison (and perhaps myself) Town earlier.

I've openly acknowledged my fence-sitting on Pine. I have trouble reading him considering the fact that I believe most of the stuff that he has posted thus far is possible to fake as scum. He gives me the vibe that he would be a competent scum player. Of course, this is entirely my opinion, and he may in actual fact be a poor scum player and I may be wrong. I have no qualms with admitting this.

On the other hand, Kison and yourself comes across as more genuine, although again, this is merely the first impression that I am gleaning off the styles of your posts. Again, I may be wrong, especially considering you apparently are holding a Don Corleone Scummie, though, I may have heard that Scummies these days are distributed rather generously.

Nothing is set in stone. My townreads on Kison and yourself are subject to change, as well as my nullread on Pine. For some reason, you speak as if they are unchanging, when it has never been the case.

What is

your

read on Pine?

--

Back to you.

[Old Man]

@Old Man:

you say you deliberately picked your Avatar to see if you would garner quick votes for it, and that those votes would likely come from Town:

there are a few reasons why I picked this avatar, one of which was to garner reactions and as a sort of social experiment to hypothesize if it would result in a policy lynch, or, at the least, a couple of RVS votes. And, those votes would more likely than not come from town, under the theory that scum would not blatantly vote for another player with such obviously flimsy reasoning, in order to keep up some facade of self-preservation.

You give points to Kison for being the first one to vote for you. But when Chamber also voted for you, you said:

My townread given to Kison does not extend to chamber for the fact that chamber is second to hop onto a bandwagon, as well as the fact that it is a naked vote here.

Isn't that the kind of thing you

just

said you were looking for and were giving Townie points for? Is the lack of point-giving because he didn't mention your Avatar specifically?

Hi, I am very sure I explained in depth the issues I had with chamber, and why he isn't eligible to redeem the "Townie points" that Kison has obtained. The issues were in fact clarified later with my questioning of chamber, and I was right on the money. Please familiarize yourself with the progression of events with regard to my reads on them.

To help, let me summarize briefly: Kison was given a townread for taking initiative to start a wagon. Chamber was not given a townread because he sheeped a wagon. Worse, chamber was given a scumread for what looks like a retroactive justification for a naked sheep on a wagon, that looked fake and scummy to me. This was cleared up later, but, chamber admitted to blind sheeping of the wagon.

--

snip

If Pine flips scum we are lynching Tywin next 100%

Why? Please explain.

I don't really want to put in the effort until I have Pine scumflip in my grubby hands in case I'm wrong, but a.) the post has that over-workshopped, way too deliberate feel and b.) it has an overwhelming sensitivity about people's positions on Pine/Eddie where he's taking great strides to say the case itself doesn't make sense, but not that he thinks Pine and Eddie are particularly town or anything. To me it screams "My scumbuddy or buddies are being pushed by a case that looks like nonsense to me, so I'll point out how the case is nonsense without explicitly saying they're town". But I don't think townies go through all of that effort to ward off a random early game push from their null reads, you just do your own thing and try to make your wagon handsomer. Like that post mentions Eddie 11 times and Pine 10 times without actually including reads on Eddie and Pine, woof. (To be clear, I do think Eddie-scum does similarly implicate Tywin as a likely buddy, I just like Pine as scum more.)

This is an excellent obsesrvation, thank you hitogoroshi. I didn't really scrutinize Tywin's post too much, but after your comments I cross-checked his post to confirm if it matched your observations. I'll one-up you better: I have found that Tywin is likely scum regardless of the alignments of Pine or Eddie.

I find significant issue with the fact that Tywin fencesits on Pine and Eddie on almost the entire post, and offers to new insight or adds anything new to the table despite the length of his post. Normally, there'd be some tells related to post:content ratio, but in this case Tywin's word:content ratio is alarmingly lacking. I don't see a trajectory, angle, or, bluntly put, genuine scumhunting in 99. Upon further inspection, I don't like his questions either, they feel flat and doesn't seem to have a meaningful line of questioning. We will see.

That said, I'm scumreading chamber and Tywin independently now. Unfortunately, I have found no evidence of associative tells between the two yet. I will be sure to highlight them if any are detected.


Also:

Dear Korts, could you please help me fix the broken tags in the above please? Thank you.

--

Preview-Edit:

Self-meta disclosure: I am a far, far better scum player than Town. As Town, I can sometimes manage to be obvTown, but rarely have significantly-above-average scumhunting skills. I'm around par.

All that said, I'm Town here. Hence my drive to be honest and disclose things.

Thank you for your self-testimony. This is exactly the issue I have with reading Pine, though. Let's try if this helps:

Pine, how would you have made the above post differently, if you were scum, instead of town?

[Old Man]

I don't like the fencesitting read on chamber.

This stands out to me. How many players do you have developed thoughts on atm? I certainly don't have them on everyone. I've been vocal, and some players have attacked me, I think it makes sense for people to be talking about me. I wouldn't expect all of those players to have hard scum or town reads. Why do you expect otherwise?

I certainly don't have thoughts on everyone either, though that's mainly the issue of them not posting enough alignment-indicative material instead of me failing to develop thoughts. It does make sense for people to be talking about you: you have one of the most number of posts in the game. I expect any level-headed player who is following the game to have either at least some lean or bias towards one of the currently most vocal and centralizing players in the game. Failure to have an opinion whatsoever does not cut it for me.

CD and Old Man are blatantly town. Kison and Roflcopter are town too.

Tywin, Insanity, and Pine are also various levels of townie. I don't like the Pine wagon, he is the most pingy in this list but I think that's just his posting and at the very least he isn't an option today.

Axelrod is scummy and of the 4 wagons (Old Man who hadn't posted, Eddie who is me, Pine and Axel) its the best imo. Granted, I haven't read the above few posts in depth so we'll see.

Why? Please explain.

I despise demands like that. The burden of proof for meta demands is on the accuser.

I strongly agree. I hate how chamber is asking for increasingly more difficult or even inane requests for Eddie Cane to fulfill (rebutting the opinion that he feels "off", expecting them to engage with a simply an opinion that was not explicitly directed as a question, etc...) simply to dispel what is obviously a trivial issue that is a badly-made "/confirm" joke. It reminds me of bureaucratic stonewalls where you have to fill in a ton of paperwork even though the issue is something simple and trivial, to discourage issues being brought up in the first place. Then again, perhaps my frustration comes from the reminder of taxes. But, my point is, I strongly agree with Pine here: the burden of proof lies with chamber here to make his case, instead of Eddie to prove innocence here.

[Old Man]

@Old Man: You've twice said this:

Again, I wish to express my opinion that the wagon on Eddie Cane is not necessarily entirely scum (obviously, it can't possibly be, though the fact that I believe it's scum-driven remains)

If you may excuse me here, there is nothing "random" about this RVS wagon. My position is that this in a devious concoction of plain bullying as well as scum bandwagoners hopping in for an easy mislynch.

This was the wagon.

6) Eddie Cane - MagnaofIllusion, insanity018, hitogoroshi, Kmd4390, petroleumjelly, chamber

To this point I think you've said you think Chamber is scummy. I think you've also said that Magna and Hito seem town to you. Is that accurate, and what's your feeling about the other people here?

Yes, that is accurate. Insanity, Kmd, and petroleumjelly haven't posted anything memorable enough for me to get a reasonably solid read on them yet. However, if there is scum on the wagon, it's a good bet that they can be found hiding there.

{Hito, KMD, Chamber, PJ, Axel} - not town pile.
Chamber, KMD, and PJ are who I'm mostly interested in lynching today. I'm not gonna act like my KMD read makes him 100% scum never lookin back but it wasn't RVS. Ya'll made a big deal of it, not me.

Why? Please explain.

VOTE: Old Man

Look at that avatar and try to tell me it's not scum.

I strongly agree with this reasoning, this avatar is indeed scum. Kison is town for this.

VOTE: Old Man

On a more serious note, I genuinely am liking this post; there are a few reasons why I picked this avatar, one of which was to garner reactions and as a sort of social experiment to hypothesize if it would result in a policy lynch, or, at the least, a couple of RVS votes. And, those votes would more likely than not come from town, under the theory that scum would not blatantly vote for another player with such obviously flimsy reasoning, in order to keep up some facade of self-preservation.

I see, I see.

UNVOTE: Axelrod
VOTE: Old Man

How do you like this one?

We're past the point for jokes like that. Move forward, not backward.

And? Do we have a word-limit in this game, or are you perhaps a draconian English teacher who is here to supervise the content of my posting? I comment on what I want to comment on. Who are you to tell me what is needed and what is not needed to be posted?

So needless hyporbole and grandstanding. Tells me all I need to know about the amount of response I feel is necessary. Kison has already shown agreement that your “Kison is Town” is suspect. And now that Eddie has given his thoughts on KMD your “lol 4th on the wagon is scum” is shown to be the very shallow excuse for reasoning like most of the rest of your points there. But I do want to address this …

And? What's scummy about "hyperbole and grandstanding"? Please explain.

Why are you putting words into Kison's mouth? He could still be RVS-ing, or attempting to reaction test. There is no evidence to support that he has "shown agreement" with you. Please, I think you are too full of yourself.

I've explained why I decided to use the choice of the word "newbie" to describe Eddie Cane. I'm not sure if you have simply failed to read my explanation of that point, or if you are actually cherry-picking extremely trivial points to enhance your argument against me, which, if is the case, I'd point the finger at you for being scummy.

The conclusion that I am "stage-setting", bluntly put, you are accusing me of regardless if Eddie "turns out to be Town" or scum, is not a good look for you as well.

Bold emphasis added – this is absolutely vital. My point on the issue of you stage setting was pretty clear I think – you’ve been white knighting Eddie since your arrival and I think you were setting the stage to attack pretty much everyone on the wagon upon his flip because you, as scum, know he isn’t your partner. But here you attempting to spin it as staging an attack regardless of alignment? Scummy

With more information from Eddie that seems reasonable (barring input from KMD) I think I’m ready to move my vote –

VOTE: OldMan

Yes, I believe I have been making it clear that

you

are spinning me as staging an attack regardless of alignment. What if Eddie Cane flips scum? How does it change your read on me? Judging from the trajectory of your posts, I have strong reason to believe that you are ready to still call me scum, though, you are given the liberty to provide evidence or testimony to rebut this argument. I don't believe that my statements have left room for misinterpretation here. You have contributed absolutely nothing in that paragraph of yours, only clarified my stance.

Why is it scummy? Please explain. You are no longer in the newbie queue here.

Again, I may be wrong, especially considering you apparently are holding a Don Corleone Scummie, though, I may have heard that Scummies these days are distributed rather generously.

The butthurt is real.

Is this your first Scummie? Well, then congratulations! You deserve it after eight long years of participation and contribution to the site!

[Old Man]

1.)

While Eddie Cane has a "recent" join date, that doesn't make him a 'newbie player.' A cursory search of his posts shows that he actually played on another site (Smogon) before playing here. A "newbie" is generally somebody who has played less than five games of mafia.

The fact that you have "hundreds of words of content" does not mean I want to engage in it all. Your defense of Eddie Cane seemed to be based on the fact that there was a 'fast' wagon on a 'newbie' player; you then implied the wagon on him is 'scum-motivated.'

Your last paragraph here is especially bad. So the Eddie Cane wagon is not only "frowned upon," but "disgusting," "prejudiced bullying," "elitist but also exclusionist," and a "thinly-veiled policy lynch"? I'm not buying what you're selling.

Compared to everyone else, he is a newbie. I'm not referring to "newbie" as in the neophytes who have no idea how to play Mafia in the newbie queue. I have made this very apparent. I mean that Eddie Cane is young to Mafiascum, and it

looks to me that the fast wagon on a player outside of the 'old-player' caste is NOT a mere coincidence

. I do not like it! Have I made myself clear?

I'm here to play mafia, not to find a job in Marketing. You are free to "not buy" what I'm "selling". I have an opinion on the Eddie Cane wagon and I'm making it clear as day.

If you think that this behavior is more likely to come from scum than town, then make your case. If you simply disagree with it, then okay, you are entitled to your own opinion, as am I, but don't pretend that's a valid reason to scumread me when the two are as relevant as apples and oranges.

reasons to move your vote off of eddie: just look how scummy old man is being!

unvote
vote: old man

(also mainly that eddie wagon just feels wrong on a gut level)

Why? Please explain.

Yes, the Eddie wagon feels wrong on a gut level.

Why? Please explain.

I talked about PJ, KMD, and Chamber I believe? Hito I don't have a read on but I'm not interested in lynching there today, and Axel has enough town pings it isn't my first choice.

I believe you have made brief mentions with regard to PJ, KMD, and Chamber, and I have come to similar conclusions, although probably not through the same way. Could I trouble you for a brief moment to summarize your reads on those three, linking together the evidence to give us a more broad picture of your overall read on them? I've skimmed your Spoiler but they are fragmented and it is difficult to follow your train of thought. It would help me a lot, thank you.

[Old Man]

Hey Old Man.

Be less smug and condescending. If you're so out of touch you don't have any idea who Magna is, you

definitely

need to fuck off of your high horse.

I wrote a reply to you, but it got lost. Probably for the better. Briefly, I want to say is: We're all equals here, and should treat each other with respect. Magna started it with his condescending tone, his "butthurt" comment, and I didn't like his tone towards Eddie comparing him to some other players as well. It sounded derogatory and malicious to me.

I get that you may have a great deal of respect for Magna, but it seems to me that you are looking down on me as well, hinted from how I'm supposed to "know who Magna is", while I'm supposed to "fuck off of my high horse". Please cease doing so. I believe it would be a mistake.

Thank you for making efforts to create a sportsmanlike and non-toxic game environment.

--

As well,

Dear Mod, I will be V/LA until May 2nd. Thank you.

[Old Man]

Pine I respect you want to make things less toxic but don’t feel the need if it is on my behalf. I think OldMan is specifically being insulting as a tactic. He’s clearly an alt and I get the feeling he thinks by being insulting he can “put me on tilt” as the poker term goes. It doesn’t bother me as I recognize it for what it is.

I apologize if you feel that you've been personally insulted. That was never my intention, but I will attack your points if I see that they are logically unsound or detrimental to the state of the game and to my win condition. But, of course, that applies for everyone.

My intent was to determine your competency level as scum. Pine has helpfully offered his self-meta and opinion of his competencies as the two main alignments. I've yet to diagnose yours.

Pine, you mentioned that the difference between your town and scum offering of your self-meta, was that, as town you'd make the previous post, while as scum you'd let others do the work and testify on your behalf instead. What do you make of Magna's lack of initiative in providing his own self-meta? Of note is that this would be identical as the action as you would have done yourself as scum. And what do you make by interpreting, deliberately or otherwise, my hints for the aforementioned as a personal attack, thereby devolving an otherwise civil argument into one laced with ad hominem?

And? What's scummy about "hyperbole and grandstanding"? Please explain.

It means that your reliance on talking down to those who disagree with you and thus I don’t really feel the need to engage with you to any large degree. This isn’t debate class where I feel the need to post many, many wall responses to your long posts to “win points”. I’m scum reading you and have explained my position to you. I’m not going to convince you that you are scum. I’m posting to explain to others why you are scum. They are the target market for my posts not you.

I apologize if you feel that I have been talking down to you. But, as I said above, engage with my points instead of lazily waving them off. I will call them out as I see fit.

Yes, I believe I have been making it clear that you are spinning me as staging an attack regardless of alignment. What if Eddie Cane flips scum?

Eddie flipping scum would oblivate my feeling that you were stage-setting for his flip since that would make no sense for a partner to do when he knew Eddie would never flip Town. It would certainly trigger a full re-evaluation of my read. For someone who just chastised me for “putting words in Kison’s mouth” you seem very comfortable making assumptions as to what I would say or do.

Fair enough.

I'm comfortable with making assumptions as to what you would say, because

I am actively engaging you in discussion directly and challenging you to clarify your stance, or to explain yourself as necessary

. Even if you see no need to convince me because you think I am scum, which you're wrong about, I hope you agree with me that such clarification also makes your argument more convincing and helps other town, your "target market", to see your point of view, and achieve your goal by placing their vote on me.

Putting words into other people's mouths is a different issue entirely, and it's scummy. It falls under the misrepping/strawmanning of arguments category of scumtells, though I expect that you're competent enough to know why that would be scummy. Sometimes town do that too, but, my point is that they are two different things. I'm not sure what your purpose is in bringing that up, except to backhandedly throw shade onto my slot.

[Old Man]

I forgot:

UNVOTE: Chamber
VOTE: Tywin Lannister

To give the chamber slot and replacement some space while I'm V/LA.

[Old Man]

Okay, I've had enough. Korts's biased mod intervention pretty much made the game unenjoyable for me when he overlooked how Magna starting being a dick to myself and other players first. And, I didn't even use abusive language, at the least let us settle it among ourselves. Anyway, I am no longer enjoying myself.

My wallposts are, admittedly, a waste of my time as well as yours. I will be posting normally from now.

First, I am moving on.

I fullclaim Day 2 Innocent Child.

I am interested to see how players MagnaofIllusion, Pine, and roflcopter re-evaluate in light of this new information.

[Old Man]

Magna's 186 is obviously moot as pointed out by hitogoroshi and Axelrod. It's very clear that you're tunnelling. Back down now.

Hito

- Help me make a wagon. Put your vote on Tywin with me.

Kison

's reactions further prove and confirm he is town. Very rare for scum to decline a free townread, even if they disagree with the reasoning.

Firebringer

's point about MoI's scum modus operandi to drag irrelevant personal opinions and emotions to pollute civil and logical discussions is noted.

If Chamber is serious about replacing, I'll give his replacement a chance to change my mind.

VOTE: Old Man

Firebringer, to meeeee

Pine

: Explain your vote here.

On the other hand:

Yes, that is accurate. Insanity, Kmd, and petroleumjelly haven't posted anything memorable enough for me to get a reasonably solid read on them yet. However, if there is scum on the wagon, it's a good bet that they can be found hiding there.

This is not at all the same thing as saying the wagon on Eddie was scum-driven (which you asserted twice). Seems like you're backing off that assertion now, saying you don't have solid reads on any of these people?

That's a false dichotomy. I can assert that the speed of a wagon is more likely to be scum-driven than town-driven without knowing the specific scum on the wagon. Judging from behavior X, we can infer Y. Example: If climate change is happening, I can assert that it is caused by global warming and pollution, without knowing

who

is causing the pollution and global warming. That requires further investigation. I am not backing off my assertion.

--

I like

Axelrod's

214 and 216. I also like

Insanity's

232. Strong townreads on both.

[Old Man]

Forgive my ignorance, but is this "You will be mod-confirmed as Town at the start of D2?"

I am able to manually request for the mod confirmation of my slot as Town at any point from D2 onwards.

[Old Man]

Frankly, I do not believe Old Man's claim. However, it is easily proveable, and when he doesn't deliver D2 we lynch him then. If it's true? Great, we have an IC. Moving on.

VOTE: Axelrod

Can you please explain why you moved your vote to Axelrod?

[Old Man]

Right now,

Pine and Eddie aren't getting my vote for already stated reasons, and my scum pool includes people that pushed them

. That's not fence sitting, but nice try Old Man. Get off my lawn.

Can you please point out your "already stated reasons" in post 99? I seem to be unable to see them! Probably due to my old eyes.

Here is the post for your reference:

Spoiler: I cannot find your "already stated reasons" for not voting Pine or Eddie.

Just caught up. I agree with Pine, Kison, whoever else in thinking the confirmation controversy is pointless. Honestly, a SR based off of that reminds me more of Epicmafia-type garbage than something I'd expect from MS outside of newbie queue. I also dont like how nearly everyone latched onto it as if it was some amazing revelation. That's suspect on D1, especially when the first wagon or two is usually on town. When nearly everyone agrees, then it means scum do as well. I don't particularly like Eddie's attitude (Pine's is ok), but not confirming in-thread is NAI for me. Games don't require everyone to confirm before they start, just the majority. I've played plenty of games where it started before I saw the PM to confirm, and it wasn't an issue? How is that AI?

That said, I think the hard push on Pine and/or Eddie over the confirmation thing is pretty bad, yet some players went with it hard, as if they were looking for something to sheep. Its possible one or both of them are scum, but why would anyone be so sure it's not easy lynchbait? Why would anyone not question it when half the playerbase sheeped it instantly? I honestly don't believe anyone genuinely believes in the confirm thing, so it looks like an excuse to form fake reads.

I don't know metas, but chamber going so hard off of it and claiming to have solved the game on page 4 pings me. He's accused multiple people so far though, which I don't think scum would be doing on D1. Thing is, those accusations seem to be based 100% on either Eddie or Pine (both?) being scum. I haven't seen any posted content that screams scum to me from either one, and hardpushing with little to no second-guessing pings me. He's not a hard SR mostly due to his playstyle. I don't really see scum pushing that hard on D1, but it does happen with a few players. Titus comes to mind.

Axelrod has been doing the same thing, but has been accusing far fewer players (none outside of Eddie? Pine?), and has not really contributed anything new to the argument, which chamber has done. Its almost entirely sheeping, which pings the hell out of me. They're not alone in doing it by any means, but they're also not giving any other thoughts. They've gone entirely for the easy lynchbait wagon with no looking elsewhere.

The player that takes the scummy cake for me though is petroloumjelly, post 64.

Looking like we should lynch Eddie Cane, Pine, and Axelrod.

I also don't believe CooLDoG's claim, but I'm not terribly interested in the topic right now.

Blatant sheeping with no original content/thoughts
String of future lynches
Not questioning anyone
Shade on potential problem PR

VOTE: petroleumjelly

Chamber: Do you SR anyone not based entirely around Pine/Eddie? Why or why not? What makes you so sure not confirming in-thread is a scum tell, and what do you dislike about Pine/Eddie's actual content? What do you see in what they've actually posted that pings you?

Axelrod: What pings you so much about Eddie's kmd vote joke thing? It looked like a normal rvs vote to me, so I'm not following your confusion over it, let alone the SR from it (his attitude sucks though). What else has Eddie done that pings you? Do you think everyone that is on his wagon are town? Do you agree that youre sheeping other's arguments against Eddie (I haven't seen you mention Pine as scum)?

Petroleumjelly: Do you have any content to add to the game besides bad sheeping? Why do you SR Eddie, Pine, and Axelrod? Do you think theyre all scum partners, or do you have independent reads? Do you have any thoughts on any other players in this game?

[Old Man]

@old man, what about 232 makes insanity a strong townread?

Insanity is looking into player motivations and player intent which appears town-motivated to me. They seems to be thinking about the game and actively engaging and sorting other players, which is much better than some flawed reasoning or even no reasoning at all (see: Pine's vote on Axelrod). For this I give them a strong townread.


I disagree with the Axel votes because I think Axelrod is town. Of course I disagreed with the votes on me previously, but that was needless to be said. So far, I am disappointed with the responses to my claim.

However, there is still MoI remaining to observe.

Scratch that, I just saw his post. My preliminary instinct tells me that he is town in a tunnel, but I need meta knowledge to know if he is able to fake this kind of behavior. Unfortunately, nobody has offered any helpful resources on this matter yet.

Interested to see KMD's response to his sudden wagon appearance. Am hoping Eddie Cane joins the Good People on the Tywin wagon.

[Old Man]

Questions to OldMan –

1. Why were the reactions to your claim “disappointing”, what does that say about the possible alignments of those invovled and why didn’t you address any of them other than mine directly? For someone who has been espousing that clarity is important you were very less than clear there.

2. Why do you continue to ask about “meta” for me? Because I will tell you directly I very much doubt you can make any sort of meta read on me that is meaningful. Both Pine and Axel (at least one of which you seem to think is Town) have both said at various points they thought I was possibly Town but are wary of my scum game. That should have been an indication that meta for me is probably pointless but you seem to act as if no-one has given you any information

Hi.

1) Here is the problem. The reactions to my claim say

nothing

about the possible alignments about those involved. It is almost all some derivation of "I am skeptical of the claim, but we won't lynch Old Man today. But, if it is found untrue on Day 2, we will probably lynch him.", then proceeding to vote someone else with weak or even no reasoning at all. I have no way to investigate town thought processes and read trajectory with reactions like these. Therefore, it was disappointing.

Clarity is inevitably sacrificed for conciseness. I am always happy to elaborate on details though, if you request for an explanation if something I said was unclear.

2) I want to know if your behavior in this game is fakeable or not. Your current play is at a level where players who are strong at scum are capable of faking, but can be reasonably town-read if one's scum competency level is just average.

I do not require meta. I just need to "profile" you, just as you "profiled" Eddie Cane, for lack of a better word.

For now, my judgement is that although I can imagine you living for the first few days due to general competency, I don't think it would be wise for you to live until Lylo.

[Old Man]

Is it just me, or is the deadline in a month?

[Old Man]

VOTE: Kmd4390

Oh God. It's only been 2 pages, but every post is a novel. We need some player-led standards set here. Can't expect Kort to do it all. Catching up though, so prodge

I think the past 2 pages have been pretty good and much easier that many of the earlier pages in the game.

Going back to your most recent content post -

Roflcopter is town. Said Axel and Hito are scum.
Kison is town. Hito voting him.
Morality I honestly can't remember ever seeing them post in this game. Null

chamber was one of your top 3 scumreads in 99. Morality replaced chamber. What is your read of that slot now?

This is pretty shallow reasons for townreading roflcoptor and Kison. Do you like anything about their actual posting or content? Do you think it's possible that scum could bus?

Hi. Why did you vote KMD, when your entire post was about Tywin Lannister? Did you misvote? Please, join us on the Tywin wagon.

[Old Man]

What is it that the kids do these days ....

::

Is that it?

I think this is literally the wrong game to ask that question!

My response to OldMan’s discussion at 287 I will keep very concise.

1. There is as discontinuity in saying that people jumped from his wagon with “weak or no reasoning” and not drawing conclusions from it (they could be scum who don’t actually have reasons) or going after said players. He did neither and basically is pretending that’s unreadable behavior.

2. I also think the second part about “wanting meta from others” is scummy coming from someone who earlier stated that the burden of proof of meta is on the accuser in relation to others having requests. Why didn’t he read my most recent scum games and come to a conclusion himself? It’s not hard to look at my threads, get a summary of my alignment in those games and do some research on how I performed.

Obviously not voting there today but not letting what I see as suspect play not be pointed out in case his claim dissipates tomorrow.

1. The problem is that I cannot read such behavior when I believe that the evidence obtained is not indicative of alignment. Can you? If so, I challenge you: Tell me what

you

think of the reactions of the people who jumped on my wagon, and their alignments. If you're town here, we'll review these predictions postgame. I'll tip my hat off to you if your reads deserve merit.

2. I am attempting to profile you. chamber was accusing Eddie of being scummy, then

asking Eddie to prove himself innocent with meta evidence that he performs the same behavior as town... guilty until proven innocent?

Here is the difference: chamber is accusing Eddie of being scum, without proof. However, I am not accusing you of anything! How are the two relevant?

Why didn’t he read my most recent scum games and come to a conclusion himself?

[Old Man]

As suggested, I have done a cursory meta readthrough of both MagnaofIllusion and Pine, in order to determine their overall competency levels as scum (as well as town) with my own personal benchmarking system, so that I can have a better handle on how they're playing in this game and what that means for their alignments.

My focus was originally on Magna, since the information presented thus far in this game has been rather unsatisfactory to me, so I took Magna up on his offer to metadive him myself. However, on my dive of Pine, I have noticed some distressing things that have certainly taken over my attention. I will explain them later. For now, here are my discoveries.

Findings:

MagnaofIllusion

Scum:

From what I've seen, I believe that I will have to commend Magna on his scumgame, he indeed does deliver decent performances as scum. He is able to manipulate the town, remain active in the game while remaining off the suspect list for most townspeople, as well as control the game in his favor. He's able to push extremely anti-town reads and stances while making them seem like they are coming from a town agenda, which is an expert skill for scum. Just take a look at this game where his entire team gets lynched consecutively, yet he manages to solo carry the game to the end, though admittedly it's only a short minigame. Or, this game where he won Final 3 despite the town hammerer having a healthy amount of paranoia and respect for MoI's scumgame, yet "failed to find any good reasons to vote Magna". Anyway, MoI is actually good at scum.

Town:

Unfortunately, Magna's towngame is... considerably weaker. He has a habit of tunnelling on town, which I believe is a result of shallow and superficial reasons for his reads. This is unfortunate. In this game, he tunnelled on havingfitz for the entire game, successfully getting him lynched, but, he flipped town. Although he did catch AnonymousGhost and Almost50 scum correctly at some point of the game, the fact that he backed off on those reads quickly, or not being as sure/actionable on them as he was on his havingfitz push, gives him little credit for those correct reads. This isn't an isolated occurrence, sadly, as in this game he tunnels momo for the entire game as well, and he flips town. This has come to a point where the more games I look at in Magna's meta where he was town, I can predict the alignment of his tunnel victim before I even look at the flips (PS: they flipped town), which made me disappointed considering the amount of praise I had given above for his scumgame. I stopped early.


________________________

Pine

Scum:

Pine's scumgame is... not as powerful as advertised. But this may be the result of looking at MoI's better scumgame earlier in comparison. Although he does a decent enough job of staying under the radar, Pine doesn't have the degree of control or manipulation over the town as MoI does. In fact, what Pine mostly does is to have a decent start at the game, but then proceeds to coast or active lurk throughout the rest of the game and hope that townies don't catch on to him. This is often done with a high effort but definitely fakeable "wallpost" (see:Pine's ISO in this game) which would only have the capability to fool weaker towns who have the misconception that "effort = town". With all that criticism said, Pine's method certainly does work, and he does win games with this strategy, see this game where he won in Final 3, but I have the belief that Pine's play will buckle to the pressure of a much stronger town.

Anyway, it's getting late, and I've seen enough.

Pine's active lurking in this game is too reminiscent of his "strong start, then active lurking" strategy that he commonly demonstrates as scum.

VOTE: Pine

I am not abandoning the Tywin wagon, especially when it so conveniently grew during my absence, which is great, but, given the generous amount of time we have remaining, I'd like to explore other avenues while we can.

I recall hito earlier making a case for Tywin being connected to Pine. This certainly confirms and supports my theory here.

[Old Man]

Hey Old Man, fuck you *thumbsup*

@Mod: Immediate emergency V/LA. Lady Pine and I about to leave for the hospital to welcome baby Pinecone! Yayyyy! I may or may not check in over the next couple of days, depending on how often I can/need to take a break from being a new dad. Posting should stabilize over the next week or so.

Break out the cigars!

Hey Pine, fuck you too! :p

That said, congratulations on the baby! I feel happy for you! Take care of baby Pinecone, give it warm snuggles, then, once you're done, get your scummy Pine butt back into this game so that we can lynch your scummy Pinebutt with pitchforks and torches!

Please don't break out the cigars though, it's bad for the baby

Vote Count

(3) Tywin Lannister - hitogoroshi, Kison, insanity018
(3) Pine - Axelrod, CooLDoG, Old Man
(2) Eddie Cane - petroleumjelly, Tammy
(2) Tammy - Firebringer, Eddie Cane
(2) hitogoroshi - Tywin Lannister, roflcopter
(1) Axelrod - Pine
(1) Kmd4390 - MagnaofIllusion

not voting:

Kmd4390

8 to lynch

Deadline is 6 PM EST on Monday the 28th of May.

[Old Man]

Actually you were, in an indirect manner. Your “meta” read of me (which was a joke BTW since basically went to the latest 2 games of mine of either alignment when I have literally dozens of games of both alignments on site) was in my mind set up to establish a no-win scenario for me. Either

1. I’m competent scum and thus you can keep the door open to not really read me but say “Looks Town, but good so can’t Townread there” (which BTW Hito is also doing in his very insubstantial read on me), or

2. Establish I’m Town because my scum game sucks and thus I can safely be ignored as a Town idiot.

Low and behold what did your “meta” dive come up with? This exact combination competent scum but terrible Town. Very convenient for you, isn’t it. Glad your claim will resolve tomorrow.

Hi. Not going to write an extended reply countering your arguments point by point, given the fact that I believe your stubbornness currently points towards you being town.*

It seems that you feel that the conclusions that I have obtained from my metadive on you are inaccurate? Please correct me then. Since I have already shown sufficient

proof

to back up my conclusions, this time the

burden of proof shifts back to you

to show me why my assessment is wrong.

Also, it is strange that you would be unsatisfied with the evidence I have provided, which is your two most recent games of both alignments. Are you saying that these most recent games are not representative of your current play, despite being the most recent (one game dates back to 2016)? Shouldn't your most recent games reflect all your improvements from your older games that are years older, and not the other way round?

Thanks,

[Old Man]

Summary of my current reads:

Strong townreads on insanity, Axel, hito, Kison
Ordinary townread on Eddie Cane, MoI, Cooldog

Strong scumread on Tywin, Pine
Weak scumread on petroleumjelly, roflcopter

In flux / Yet to sort: chamber/Morality/Tammy, Firebringer, KMD

[Old Man]

Prod dodge

[Old Man]

where i'm at: end of page 6

@Axel: Pine budding in with Chamber seems to be a re-occurring theme. What's your read on the Chamber slot?

@Eddie Cane: Have you called anybody dogshit yet?

@Moi: How do you feel about OM defining Eddie Cane as lynchbait and encouraging Petro to make something of themselves?

@Roflcopter: You wanted no business in OM or Eddie in 143. What about Axel interested you so much that you'd sit on the vote for +/- 80 posts?

@Tammy: I'd ask Chamber what the fuck he's doing for half of his posts. If you want to play get in the mind of your pred I'm game~

@Woofbringer: Did you ask Pine to marry you just to make Moi jealous?

People I'm hard tring~

Hito made a roundabout post 124 that "leads back to zero". It reads like Hito had a good point and decided to keep talking until he discredited himself, which is something that would come from town opposed to a scumbutt that gets off on having authority.

OM. The gambit is good. He's the most sociable player on the list so far interacting with everybody besides KMD and Cooldog, and I feel like he's pushing people in the right places./ I'm only seeing good intent from him so far.

People I'm hard sring~

Chamber dropped a shitpost in 129 and Pine made the very reasonable reply afterwards... in 130.

cough

sorry if I leave it like that my point will be lost on people

Pine interfered with Chamber's push on Eddie. Make your good points™ all you like, I'll probably roll my eyes onto my touchpad. What shooting it down immediately does is remove any utility his poorly intended question had. Why'd you break up the fight Pine? Chiarire.

VOTE: Pine

Hi.

Thanks for the townread but I'm afraid that your post here looks too fake for me. Top that up with Tywin's scummy replace-out/flake and that's a sealed vote on your slot.

VOTE: Lycanfire

Please exterminate this. Thank you.

[Old Man]

Hi. Not going to write an extended reply countering your arguments point by point, given the fact that I believe your stubbornness currently points towards you being town.*

It seems that you feel that the conclusions that I have obtained from my metadive on you are inaccurate? Please correct me then. Since I have already shown sufficient proof to back up my conclusions, this time the burden of proof shifts back to you to show me why my assessment is wrong.

Also, it is strange that you would be unsatisfied with the evidence I have provided, which is your two most recent games of both alignments. Are you saying that these most recent games are not representative of your current play, despite being the most recent (one game dates back to 2016)? Shouldn't your most recent games reflect all your improvements from your older games that are years older, and not the other way round?

I'll keep this to the point - again this isnt't debate class. Don't expect me to spend time defending my Town game (which I am more than adequately equipped to do ... Tammy at the minimum can absolutely vouch for this) to you because it is of no purpose. I don't particularly care what you think of my Town game. I do care to point out that your "meta dive" (again, 2 games is like the poster child for small sample size) doesn't look like an actual effort to determine how I play as both alignments but very much like you cherry picked games to support a position that I can safely be ignored regardless of my alignment (Scumgod who can never be trusted or Village Idiot who should be dismissed) which fits a scum agenda much more easily than a Town one. Again this is simply evidence I don't want swept under the rug as people basically ignore you due to your claim. I want as much evidence as possible in the case that you aren't revealed Town pretty much at the start of Day 2. And heck if you are actually an Innocent Child it gives me an insight into your ability as Town. Which I can't meta since conveniently you are a hidden alt. Which is another reason I find your obsession with meta off.

Hi.

I did skim the rest of your older games but I saw no need to link them in the thread because it's likely nobody will read them. The patterns that I found are the same. I only linked the two most recent games of each alignment (total four) in total to prove that I did my homework.

Hito provided his two most recent games as both alignments in the post above yours. It's a fairly normal thing to do. I don't see anything unusual about it. If you're unhappy about your performance in your most recent 2 games that is no concern of mine. If you feel that the results of my metadive are inaccurate you are free to prove otherwise. If you think Tammy can testify for the decency of your towngame, please feel free to request her to make a statement to convince myself and the rest of the town.

Thanks.

[Old Man]

Old Man - What do you like about insanity's 232?

It has been explained on Page 11, Post #269.


Thanks for replacing into a scummy slot (chamber/Morality) and becoming obvious town, Tammy.

[Old Man]

As a personal favor, please cut me some slack on the D1 lynch. I've only been skimming, but the bulk of the case against me seems to be activity-based, supplemented by tonal changes and some inconsistency. Frankly, that's all Pinecone.

As I settle back into being a person, I guarantee I can recover and satisfy the concerns.

I will be happy to "cut you some slack on the D1 lynch" but misrepresenting the basis of the scumreads on you as a result of your IRL issues (by the way, they are not) is not a good look for you.

We will resume the process of sticking the pitchforks up your nether region on Day 2 onwards.

You can say that Pinecone saved your mafia life this time.

[Old Man]

@Old Man, I don't think you have answered whether you looked at any of Pine's town games for your meta case?

I didn't have enough time. I'll get to it... eventually.

[Old Man]

If you think Tammy can testify for the decency of your towngame, please feel free to request her to make a statement to convince myself and the rest of the town.

Magna does have a good town game. I don't think that reading one or two games and seeing that someone tunneled on town means they don't have a good town game in general. There's more in general to being a good town player than always having the best reads, and people have games where their reads aren't the greatest. It happens, and everyone has weaknesses.

What are Magna's strengths as town?

[Old Man]

Yeah, not buying this. But does make me believe they probably aren’t scum together.

There have been a few times when I was about to call you out for attacking poor play over scummy play, but remembered that's pretty normal for you. You've done that with old man, myself, and firebringer. The other part of it is that as soon as you see something you think is scummy, you see the worst in everything they say after that point. So, like Hito, I do always seem to scum read you. Is there a reason you think I'm making that up?

That's probably the cause of his most recent failures as town where he tunnels on town for the entire game is generally a huge distraction to town win condition -- misguided scumhunting. I've been polite so far but it seems to keep going over Magna's head so I have no choice but to be blunt. And his ego is so big that he refuses to improve even after constructive criticism has been given. Honestly I'm getting rather frustrated of his tunnelling. Normally I would cease replying to such players because it only creates a huge distraction.

[Old Man]

Eddie Cane I understand your frustration from PJ's case. Most of them are points that are trivial and the fact that he is still going on about something that happened during RVS can be understandably irritating.

Do the right thing and vote Lycanfire/Tywin with us.

[Old Man]

Also one thing I saw Old Man talk about is that he loves his analysis of the game, my only issue is that I feel like MoI's posts are cluttered with non-related material, mostly about food and asinine maths about pages. More of an annoyance over a read as of right now.

As for Old Man himself, dude is fucking awesome. I enjoyed his analysis of Chamber and again, like Hito, made me feel like I'm not really reading into things as deeply as I can, or really just keeping track of what people are saying well. All praise aside I do find myself agreeing with the Old Man.

Thank you. Welcome to the game.

[Old Man]

I agree the Firebringer case is more of the difficult-to-read side of MoI. But there are some very motive focused posts like ISO 10 and at least FMPOV that's enough to settle my nerves until we have some more concrete flips in.

Meh, the points about Old Man using "ridiculous reasoning", "rambling", and thinking Eddie was a policy lynch all feel like suspecting poor play to me. In past games, have you noticed a difference between town Magna and scum Magna? Or just that he uses borderline policy logic as town?

As I have meta'd his previous games it appears to be

poor play on the part of Magna himself

to use those points as basis for scumhunting, leading to his scumhunting mistakes netting correct scumreads less often than a random number generator. He certainly does do this as town in past games for sure.

[Old Man]

So the conclusion – OldMan would have you believe he’s Town who is voting Twyin based soley on Hito's case when the entirety of the case Hito laid out is predicted on one or both of Pine / Eddie to be scum. And OldMan clearly doesn’t think either one is scum.

Aka OldMan wants to lynch a relational tell when he doesn’t believe the relations that tell is based on. Aka scum fabricating beliefs instead of actually scumhunting. Or distancing from a partner.

Either way vote away!

This is litty actually

VOTE: OLD MAN JENKINS

You know what's more 'litty'? The fact that Post #186 has been proven to be the most debunked post of his ISO.

The atrocious 180 heel-turn from the above post is noted.

[Old Man]

I think Magna's strength as a town player is that he is able to effectively lead as town and usually be convincing in his cases. He has a certainty in his reads, but a willingness to change those reads that is beneficial. He is active and reads the game in a logical way that is able to spot contradictions in logic.

Town needs players like that. It needs players like that to balance out players like me who waffle on reads longer than is necessary sometimes.

Are there also some weaknesses in that? Absolutely. If his reads are right, town is in a great place; if wrong, not so much. Having bad reads sometimes doesn't make someone a bad player; it means they had bad reads. I can't think of a player who is a good town leader type player who is effective at getting his reads lynched that has not sometimes had bad reads and contributed to a town loss. That doesn't make someone a bad town player, that means they had a bad town game because they're human and humans make mistakes.

If you have what you believe is constructive criticism to an approach, then maybe save it for post game? Because what you're doing right now is probably one of the least productive things to do in a mafia game. If you really are an IC, you have no clue what his or anyone else's alignments are in this game, so none of this matters to this game. Trying to make someone feel bad about the way they play does absolutely nothing to further a town win condition. I could see your argument if you believed he was tunneling on town for the same reasons he tunneled on town in a past game, and you're pointing that out as being a reason to make this argument, but it doesn't feel like that.

All the things are cut off so I don't know who the tunnel is referring to very easily, and if it's you I completely understand how frustrating it is to get tunneled on when you're town. I've had my own wall-off as town trying to argue my case to a town-Magna who thought I might be scum. I get it, but I don't think in general trashing people's play style is very helpful to town. (I know the desire and I've succumbed to it in the past, believe me, but in general it's bad practice.)

So if there are tunneling reasons that you think are in general and wrong with reasoning, please go in that direction; I can't imagine this one bringing any positive results.

Oh I get it ... Magna is just like Mathdino and RC. Well now at least I can calibrate my analysis of his posts through that particular filter.

--

You are correct. Magna is currently tunnelling me, who is not only obvious town by play but literally have a role claim backing me up. He continues to do this up till his most recent post of the game. Consequently all his posts so far have been empty and useless noise. I am sure you are aware how frustrating this must be. He is failing to even contribute to town by exploring other avenues at all.

Since he is not listening to a word I say I have no choice to request your help, for the betterment of the town and for his own sake, to do something more productive.

[Old Man]

*to tell him to do something more productive.

[Old Man]

Why are there so many votes on hitogoroshi? He is one of my strongest townreads.

[Old Man]

Old Man - I don't think that Magna is tunneling on you; he's not trying to lynch you today and he's got other suspects. He's pointing out stuff he thinks is still suspicious because if he's town he doesn't believe your claim, if he's scum he's trying to look like he doesn't believe your claim. But see the thing is, if you are telling the truth and you are a day two IC, none of that matters because you have an ace in the whole. You're going to be confirmed town tomorrow and you can virtual middle finger the entire game who suspected you. So here's what I did when I was an IC once. I wasn't confirmed yet and could pop it at any time, but I was trying to hold off because I wanted to live awhile. But there was a player who thought every one of my posts was scummy or fake or something; I just laughed internally because they were wasting their time. (I also believe I trolled them a bit but I don't recommend that here.) Have you worked on getting your thoughts together on KMD or fire bringer? Maybe try to ignore Magna and focus elsewhere? When I get so irritated with a player I'm getting distracted, I try to stop reading their posts and work out my thoughts on other people.

I know this. I have no intent to "virtual middle finger" anybody else in the game because ironically only a select minority suspects me. I also do not require the crutch of an IC-role to "virtual middle finger" anyone, in past games it was child's play to do so after catching the scum by a significant margin compared to those foolish enough to draw my ire to the point where I would even consider the idea of performing the gesture [of a virtual middle finger].

I am perfectly capable of ignoring Magna and have already proceeded to do so recently. This is why I have focused my efforts to respond to other players such as yourself instead. It is only a pity because Magna's strengths in this game is he is active and responsive - which is a big plus compared to roflcopter, CoolDog, etc who are barely present - yet most of his posts contain all this noise on tunnelling on me.

Also I am getting bored because I want Tywin/Lycan to flip but certain players are either stalling the day to its maximum one-month deadline or are trying to form counterwagons, which I will proceed to prosecute tomorrow after Lycan's alignment is revealed.

[Old Man]

I know this. I have no intent to "virtual middle finger" anybody else in the game because ironically only a select minority suspects me.

Also I am getting bored because I want Tywin/Lycan to flip but certain players are either stalling the day to its maximum one-month deadline or are trying to form counterwagons, which I will proceed to prosecute tomorrow after Lycan's alignment is revealed.

Blah blah blah tunnelling ... here's two things from his above post that I absolutely don't want lost in the discussion.

1. If he was only suspected by a "select minority" as he claims why did he claim Innocent Child in the first place in the manner he did?
2. The second part of this is written from the standpoint of someone who absolutely thinks he'll be alive tomorrow. I have other thoughts about him pre-emptively talking about prosecuting those not voting Lycan when he as Town should not be 100% sure but the point I am making is the following - why does someone who claims to be so lightly suspected, who is pushing on what they claim is a scum lynch and have claimed the ability to absolutely Town confirm themselves expect to live til Day 2?

Because protectives exist. Use your brain.

[Old Man]

Will post tomorrow

[Old Man]

I’ve been very busy and will post more content in the next few days when I’m more available.

For now:

Axel

- Any reason why you aren’t voting Lycan? There’s an obvious scum-motivated counterwagon to save Lycan, and your top scumread roflcopter is the leader. I cannot understand why your vote is parked on Pine. Please correct this.

Tammy

- The same for you. Lycan is your top scumread, it puzzled me why your vote isn’t on him, and instead is still Not Voting.

Eddie Cane

- Your top scumread roflcopter is hard pushing a desperate counterwagon to save my top scumread. You scratch my back, I scratch yours. Given that a Lycan lynch goes through (and he flips red), I guarantee the extermination of the bad bunny tomorrow. I need your vote to make it a hammer. Please join us.


I can’t believe we actually made the full month of the deadline. Mainly people being inactive.

[Old Man]

you may repeat yourself on the "roflcopter hasn't actually made a case" talking point some more if you like as well, you're not the one i'm trying to convince to vote for you after all

it's ironic that you keep pulling from trump's playbook while saying i'm acting like a red pill maga mook

Sadly, see, I'm still not convinced that you are scum despite your lazy ineptness, so there's this tiny part of me that keeps thinking, hey, if this guy will just engage, he'll have to come to his senses.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I know, right?

I also know I'm completely burning that bridge insulting you, because pop psychology 101 is that when you insult the guy attacking you all it makes him do it dig down harder, fight-or-flight response (like when you try to challenge a Trump supporter's beliefs, see? Logic and reason goes completely out the window)

I can't help it though. You're being too annoying. Sorry.

You know why Hillary lost? Because of people like you who don’t vote.

Want to stop that from happening again? Do your part and vote Lycan.

Vote Count

(5) Lycanfire - hitogoroshi, Kison, insanity018, Old Man, Kmd4390
(4) Axelrod - roflcopter, ManaofIllusion, Pine, Ginngie
(2) hitogoroshi - CooLDoG, Firebringer
(1) Pine - Axelrod
(1) MagnaofIllusion - Lycanfire
(1) Ginngie - Eddie Cane

not voting:

Tammy

8 to lynch

Deadline is 6 PM EST on Monday the 28th of May.

I repeat. Deadline is in

3 days.

[Old Man]

Votes speak louder than words.

Trump supporters showed up. Hillary’s didn’t.

Trump swept a clean win by an incontestable margin.

Do your part! Vote Lycan!

[Old Man]

Old Man has been prodded.

Oops.

--

I hereby retract my Day 2 Innocent Child claim that I have made yesterday.

Instead, I correct this by claiming: Odd Night Gunsmith.

Rationale for the aforementioned Innocent Child claim: To ensure that I would not be roleblocked by a potential scum roleblocker during the night (because Innocent Child is not a roleblockable action), as well as to fully guarantee that I would survive the previous day, as to obtain a minimum of one investigative result in the game.

--

I have investigated Lycanfire last night and have obtained a guilty result.

VOTE: Lycanfire


Today's lynch will only be between Lycanfire or myself. If you wish to lynch me for falsely claiming a different role previously, feel free to do so. However, your ignorant error will be very apparent upon the flip.

Pick your side.

[Old Man]

What...?

Lynch the living heavens out of Lycanfire. It is the closest thing to a scumclaim you will ever get.

Really, did you guys actually think that he would roll over and claim scum?

"Oh, Old Man, great job, you caught me, I'm guilty, good job!"...?

Why on earth would Korts give town a Gunsmith

then

give someone else a Cop? Isn't it redundant? Does nobody realize that not only did Lycanfire coincidentally claim the one thing that would give him an out upon being guiltied, but he is also technically counter-claiming me? If anything, my Gunsmith was probably meant to return a red herring on CoolDog's Paranoid

Gun

Owner's claim, not on a redundant cop on my top scumread. Please.

Next, hitogoroshi, the only other player in the entire game who was steadfast and creditable for a Lycan-Tywin push, is dead. Now, of course it can be argued that scum didn't want to eliminate myself or Tammy, because we might have been the two most likely targets for night-time protection... but why hitogoroshi, who was on the lynching table yesterday, and even described by Firebringer as "lynchbait"? Why kill hitogoroshi instead of other "strong" players like Pine or Magna (ha ha...)

Clearly the obvious answer is that Lycanfire is scum and needed hitogoroshi silenced.

Please do the sensible thing and lynch Lycan with fire. Thanks.


--

@Tammy and Magna

You may be wondering why I have been checking into the game much more infrequently than at game start. Well, I am beginning to lose interest in this game, especially when everyone couldn't even consolidate on a lynch with a whopping ONE MONTH deadline, and proceeded to generate a flashwagon on town instead of lynching obvious scum while I was away. It certainly dampens the spirit.

[Old Man]

lol i get this idea that Old Man lied again about another role and then Lycan countered by lying also.

Do you realize that if Lycan lied about his role, he is by definition scum? But the difference, is, in your theory, even if I am telling the truth or lying about my role, I am by definition town?

Lynch Lycan with me and you will be greatly rewarded.

[Old Man]

Oh my god! Why is it so hard to lynch scum in this game?!

Hitogoroshi must be turning in his grave right now.

[Old Man]

After Lycan flips scum (if, this ever happens) we powerlynch roflcopter for the blatant hard defense of Lycan all game.

[Old Man]

The following people need to join me and vote Lycanfire the guiltied scum:

Tammy, Axelrod, Insanity, Firebringer, Kison

With currently myself and Eddie Cane on the wagon, we have only barely sufficient support to get a lynch.

Town needs every single one of your votes. The following players are on high suspect for being Lycan's partners:

{Ginggie, Roflcopter, Pine, Magna}

In my eyes Lycanfire is already flipped red. His claim is too coincidental that I am calling bullshit.

[Old Man]

What...?

Lynch the living heavens out of Lycanfire. It is the closest thing to a scumclaim you will ever get.

Really, did you guys actually think that he would roll over and claim scum?

"Oh, Old Man, great job, you caught me, I'm guilty, good job!"...?

Why on earth would Korts give town a Gunsmith

then

give someone else a Cop? Isn't it redundant? Does nobody realize that not only did Lycanfire coincidentally claim the one thing that would give him an out upon being guiltied, but he is also technically counter-claiming me? If anything, my Gunsmith was probably meant to return a red herring on CoolDog's Paranoid

Gun

Owner's claim, not on a redundant cop on my top scumread. Please.

Next, hitogoroshi, the only other player in the entire game who was steadfast and creditable for a Lycan-Tywin push, is dead. Now, of course it can be argued that scum didn't want to eliminate myself or Tammy, because we might have been the two most likely targets for night-time protection... but why hitogoroshi, who was on the lynching table yesterday, and even described by Firebringer as "lynchbait"? Why kill hitogoroshi instead of other "strong" players like Pine or Magna (ha ha...)

Clearly the obvious answer is that Lycanfire is scum and needed hitogoroshi silenced.

Please do the sensible thing and lynch Lycan with fire. Thanks.


--

@Tammy and Magna

You may be wondering why I have been checking into the game much more infrequently than at game start. Well, I am beginning to lose interest in this game, especially when everyone couldn't even consolidate on a lynch with a whopping ONE MONTH deadline, and proceeded to generate a flashwagon on town instead of lynching obvious scum while I was away. It certainly dampens the spirit.

I've already written my case with valid logical reasons here. It seems like you didn't read it. Or, are pretending to ignore it because you are scum with Lycan.

[Old Man]

I'm done talking to scum. I don't expect to get votes from you or Ginggie. Peace.

[Old Man]

Spoiler: Vote counts of Day 1, last 2 are Day 2

Vote Count

(4) Old Man - Kison, MagnaofIllusion, roflcopter, Pine
(2) Eddie Cane - petroleumjelly, Morality
(1) Pine - Axelrod
(1) Morality - Eddie Cane
(1) hitogoroshi - CooLDoG
(1) petroleumjelly - Tywin Lannister
(1) Tywin Lannister - Old Man
(1) Kison - hitogoroshi
(1) roflcopter - insanity018

not voting:

Firebringer, Kmd4390

8 to lynch

Deadline is 6 PM EST on Monday the 28th of May.

Vote Count

(2) Eddie Cane - petroleumjelly, Morality
(2) Axelrod - Pine, roflcopter
(2) Tywin Lannister - Old Man, hitogoroshi
(2) Kmd4390 - MagnaofIllusion, Eddie Cane
(2) Pine - Axelrod, CooLDoG
(1) Morality - Firebringer
(1) hitogoroshi - Tywin Lannister
(1) roflcopter - insanity018
(1) Firebringer - Kison

not voting:

Kmd4390

8 to lynch

Deadline is 6 PM EST on Monday the 28th of May.

Vote Count

(3) Tywin Lannister - Old Man, hitogoroshi, Kison
(2) Eddie Cane - petroleumjelly, Morality
(2) Axelrod - Pine, roflcopter
(2) Kmd4390 - MagnaofIllusion, insanity018
(2) Pine - Axelrod, CooLDoG
(2) Morality - Firebringer, Eddie Cane
(1) hitogoroshi - Tywin Lannister

not voting:

Kmd4390

8 to lynch

Deadline is 6 PM EST on Monday the 28th of May.

Vote Count

(4) Lycanfire - hitogoroshi, Kison, insanity018, Old Man
(2) Pine - Axelrod, Lycanfire
(2) Eddie Cane - petroleumjelly, Tammy
(2) hitogoroshi - roflcopter, CooLDoG
(2) petroleumjelly - Eddie Cane, Firebringer
(1) Axelrod - Pine
(1) Firebringer - MagnaofIllusion

not voting:

Kmd4390

8 to lynch

Deadline is 6 PM EST on Monday the 28th of May.

Vote Count

(4) Lycanfire - hitogoroshi, Kison, insanity018, Old Man
(3) hitogoroshi - roflcopter, CooLDoG, Firebringer
(2) Pine - Axelrod, Lycanfire
(2) Ginngie- Eddie Cane, Kmd4390
(1) Eddie Cane - Tammy
(1) Firebringer - Pine
(1) Old Man - Ginngie
(1) Kmd4390 - MagnaofIllusion

not voting:

8 to lynch

Deadline is 6 PM EST on Monday the 28th of May.

Vote Count

(5) Lycanfire - hitogoroshi, Kison, insanity018, Old Man, Kmd4390
(3) Axelrod - roflcopter, ManaofIllusion, Pine
(2) hitogoroshi - CooLDoG, Firebringer
(2) Pine - Axelrod, Lycanfire
(1) Eddie Cane - Tammy
(1) Old Man - Ginngie
(1) roflcopter - Eddie Cane

not voting:

8 to lynch

Deadline is 6 PM EST on Monday the 28th of May.

Vote Count

(5) Lycanfire - hitogoroshi, Kison, insanity018, Old Man, Kmd4390
(3) Axelrod - roflcopter, ManaofIllusion, Pine
(2) hitogoroshi - CooLDoG, Firebringer
(2) Pine - Axelrod, Lycanfire
(1) Old Man - Ginngie
(1) roflcopter - Eddie Cane

not voting:

Tammy

8 to lynch

Deadline is 6 PM EST on Monday the 28th of May.

I repeat. Deadline is in

6 days.

Vote Count

(5) Lycanfire - hitogoroshi, Kison, insanity018, Old Man, Kmd4390
(4) Axelrod - roflcopter, ManaofIllusion, Pine, Ginngie
(2) hitogoroshi - CooLDoG, Firebringer
(1) Pine - Axelrod
(1) roflcopter - Eddie Cane
(1) MagnaofIllusion - Lycanfire

not voting:

Tammy

8 to lynch

Deadline is 6 PM EST on Monday the 28th of May.

I repeat. Deadline is in

4 days.

Vote Count

(5) Lycanfire - hitogoroshi, Kison, insanity018, Old Man, Kmd4390
(4) Axelrod - roflcopter, ManaofIllusion, Pine, Ginngie
(2) hitogoroshi - CooLDoG, Firebringer
(1) Pine - Axelrod
(1) MagnaofIllusion - Lycanfire
(1) Ginngie - Eddie Cane

not voting:

Tammy

8 to lynch

Deadline is 6 PM EST on Monday the 28th of May.

I repeat. Deadline is in

3 days.

Vote Count

(5) Lycanfire - hitogoroshi, insanity018, Old Man, Kmd4390, Eddie Cane
(4) Axelrod - roflcopter, ManaofIllusion, Pine, Kison
(2) hitogoroshi - CooLDoG, Firebringer
(1) MagnaofIllusion - Lycanfire

not voting:

Tammy, Axelrod, Ginngie

8 to lynch

Deadline is 6 PM EST on Monday the 28th of May.

I repeat. Deadline is in

2 days.

Vote Count

(4) Lycanfire - hitogoroshi, Old Man, Kmd4390, Eddie Cane
(4) Kmd4390 - Tammy, Pine, Ginngie, insanity018
(3) Axelrod - roflcopter, ManaofIllusion, Kison
(2) hitogoroshi - CooLDoG, Firebringer
(1) MagnaofIllusion - Lycanfire

not voting:

Axelrod

8 to lynch

Deadline is 6 PM EST on Monday the 28th of May.

I repeat. Deadline is in

1 day.

Final Vote Count

(8) Kmd4390 - Tammy, Pine, Ginngie, insanity018, Eddie Cane, CooLDoG, MagnaofIllusion, Firebringer
(3) Lycanfire - hitogoroshi, Old Man, Kmd4390
(2) Axelrod - roflcopter, Kison
(1) MagnaofIllusion - Lycanfire

not voting:

Axelrod

8 to lynch

Vote Count

(2) Old Man - MagnaofIllusion, Kison
(2) Lycanfire - Eddie Cane, Old Man
(1) insanity018 - Ginngie
(1) Kison - insanity018
(1) Firebringer - Pine
(1) Pine - Firebringer

not voting:

Lycanfire, Tammy, CooLDoG, Axelrod, roflcopter

7 to lynch

Deadline is 6 PM EST on Friday the 29th of June.

Vote Count

(2) Lycanfire - Eddie Cane, Old Man
(1) insanity018 - Ginngie
(1) Kison - insanity018
(1) Firebringer - Pine
(1) Pine - Firebringer
(1) Eddie Cane - Lycanfire

not voting:

Tammy, CooLDoG, Axelrod, roflcopter, Kison, MagnaofIllusion

7 to lynch

Deadline is 6 PM EST on Friday the 29th of June.

Here's the fun part about these vote counts. Old man talks a lot that Lycan is scum because hito killed and what not.

However, you notice that BOTH HITO AND OLD MAN, are permanent residents of the Lycan wagon.

So really, when we look deeper into who was getting killed, we have to ask ourselves the question

If Hito and Old Man are both death tunneling Lycan, why then would Lycan not try to kill 2 birds with 1 stone and also kill the IC.

After all look at the previous game state. Hito was suspected by people, and Old Man had an IC claim he was going to pop.

Given that, even in night chat, it gets a lot more suspicious for Old Man not to die if there is such a Lycan!scum world.


I'm still mulling over some stuff regarding Hito but I had to point out this little issue real quick

Here's the obvious answer: Scum didn't want to take the risk of killing me because there might be protectives on me, but it would be far less likely for the kill on hito to be stopped by a protective.

[Old Man]

Ok so now that OldMan has chimed in on Lycan’s claim I can talk a little about it. I can see either one being scum just on the basis of the claims. OldMan could be a RoleCop who targeted Lycan and took all the time in the world making his claim today. And Lycan could certainly be scum who counter-claimed with the much easier role to fake that makes sense as Town (Cop over Vig). Seems unlikely that this is one over-complicated bus on OldMan’s part given both being scum means they risk getting counterclaimed by an actual possible investigation role. Not totally out of the question given who OldMan is. But unlikely. And not impossible that they are both Town who have just played bad games so far.

But based on the reactions to the claim I’d lean heavily that Lycan is much more likely to be scum of the two. He has no hesitation to believe the claim of OldMan even when voicing reasons why it could be faked. He 100% believes the claim. Much more likely to come from scum who have no reason to doubt the guilty on them.

OldMan’s logic at 1011 regarding why the fake-claim is, at the most charitable, stupid if he is Town. But given who I believe he is I don’t find it outside of Towngame. But his consistency in wanting Lycan dead probably speaks to a Town mindset. He’s putting the veracity of his claim on the line in the event Lycan is Town.

Overall I find the discussion of “what is reasonable” about the two claims pretty useless on Day 2 with two VT flips for Town players to be engaging in. Far more games are lost by far than won with players thinking they understand the setup with a very sketchy picture.

If I vote in the duo it is probably for Lycan I just really need to mull over how likely it is for Lycan to be scum and for the scum team to have left a hypo-Town OldMan who was the driving force for Lycan yesterday alive even without the now revised claim. For the moment -

UNVOTE: OldMan

Finally! Magna is making some sense. You need to take one more step further though, and vote Lycan with me. Take that leap of faith. And you can be redeemed.

Firebringer

, I need you, too, to help town vote Lycanfire. Look at what Eddie Cane is doing. He is doing the right thing. Please join us, and you can be cleared until endgame (after Lycan flips scum). I am going to make it my mission to ensure he doesn't survive again today.

[Old Man]

Korts, I will be out of town until Friday, 8 June. I have marked this on my profile accordingly.

[Old Man]

Old Man:

still want you to explain to me why you thought you had such a great chance of being roleblocked that fake claiming would be a stellar move.

I could not tolerate the risk that I get nightkilled or get roleblocked, being likely the sole investigative and thus the most powerful role in the game (under the assumption that Lycan is scum). Also, I believe in my stellar scumhunting abilities to be able to lock-down a scum with a single use of my ability the next day, giving me the obvious town status that would rival that of a confirmed-town Innocent Child.

However, I admit that I may have miscalculated how difficult it is to lynch actual scum in this game, whom I literally have a guilty on.


Look at Eddie Cane's math. The odds of Lycan being scum are 3/15, three times more than if he was a "Cop" (and this assumes there is even a cop in this game). What else could he have claimed after being guiltied by my result? It is the only viable move that scum can do.

[Old Man]

Old Man - Who do you think Lycan's partners are? Because even if you believe you have a guilty, there's more work to do.

I think Lycan's partners are within this pool: {Ginggie, Pine, roflcopter, MagnaofIllusion}

Given Magna's position on Lycan today, he is given the benefit of doubt and thus lower priority as compared to the other three.

[Old Man]

No

Stop it

Don't be a dingus

Eddie's "math" is totally bogus. Its core assumption is flawed. It fails to account for the non-randomness of game design.

That is Not How Math Works.

What is flawed about his math? Did Korts insert a Cop Nexus who automatically draws Gunsmith guilties onto himself? What is so hard to understand about the fact that by sheer probability, it's more likely that Lycan is scum rather than not?

What is so hard to understand about the fact that Lycan is scum by play yesterday and now with a guilty on him he is literally confirmed scum?

[Old Man]

I don't stick my neck out for scumbuddy Lycan like this. He'd be on his own.

You are ignoring the Occam's Razor explanation.

His role MAKES SENSE and BALANCES YOURS.

No, Occam's Razor explanation is that Lycan is scum and he is lying.

[Old Man]

I don't stick my neck out for scumbuddy Lycan like this. He'd be on his own.

Why not? If you're scum with Lycan here, the defense is going remarkably well.

[Old Man]

Don't get high and mighty with "scum by play." You had the scummiest D1 in this game, and were only saved from the rope by a bogus claim.

Then how did KMD get lynched over Lycan and Axel?

[Old Man]

I don't stick my neck out for scumbuddy Lycan like this. He'd be on his own.

Why not? If you're scum with Lycan here, the defense is going remarkably well.

Why not? Because sticking my neck out here is idiotic unless I actually believe it.

Why is it idiotic if you can save a partner?

[Old Man]

I hate how only players whom I suspect are Lycan's teammates are the only ones engaging with me.

[Old Man]

Where do you get Nexus from?

I don't know... the Mafiascum Wiki maybe?

I forget that this game contains a posting restriction. I will henceforth be disengaging with you today.

[Old Man]

We get some extra posts and none of us ever get around to using them. I'm fine spending some.

Nexus would redirect your gun investigation from Lycan to someone else.

You returned a gun guilty on Lycan.

He claimed a role which has a gun.

So why are you assuming Nexus? This makes no sense.

How dense are you? Read my post again.

I don't believe it's a coincidence that Lycan claimed cop just conveniently as I investigated my top scumread and found him guilty. I believe that he is fake-claiming cop as scum to stay alive, or, perhaps is a scum rolecop, which was why he was able to come up with such a convenient fakeclaim so fast.

tl;dr Just lynch the effing scum already. I don't believe in coincidences.

[Old Man]

Extending V/LA until 14 June.

[Old Man]

Won't flake out but lost all energy and enthusiasm for this game.

[Old Man]

Am fine with either the Lycan or the Pine wagon.

[Old Man]

Oh look, another guilty on Tywin/Lycan/Otter.

VOTE: LuckyOtter

[Old Man]

Yeah, you're scum.

VOTE: roflcopter

[Old Man]

If anyone wonders, this isn't a guilty. I've been roleblocked, as expected.

[Old Man]

What a convenient claim. Just like our friendly Even Night Cop! I wonder if I'll believe that...

Kison is absolutely correct that everything rofl has done has been harmful to town -- advocating for insanity/Axelrod mislynches, at the same time hard defending Lycanslot.

[Old Man]

That kind of behavior should be bannable regardless of alignment. I wonder if Kison will take action.

[Old Man]

Oh, hell. Two of my top scumreads for defending Lycan flipped town.

The only remaining one is Ginggie.

[Old Man]

VOTE: Ginggie

[Old Man]

VOTE: Rayfrost

I just realized he is a PGO that discourages both me and Kison from investigating him. He needs to be settled before LYLO anyway.

[Old Man]

So, the scum have shown their hand. Rayfrostslot may just as well claim scum to me with that vote, as well as with Ginggie. The answer is clear.

I appreciate Rayfrost replacement's enthusiasm in playing the game and moving his wincon forward, but unfortunately I cannot say that I share his enthusiasm to rebut his joke of a "case" that he has made on me. Clearly, he is scum backed into a corner and has to retaliate by launching a Hail-Mary push onto me, otherwise he loses the game completely once he is lynched. They are certainly rather close to winning, so I appreciate his point of view in this matter.

My comment is this: It is obvious to assess who is scum here, pick between the most pro-town player in the game who has made strong pushes and efforts to lynch the only exposed scum in the game so far, and is also a proven, cleared, Power Role; or pick the playerslot which has a consistent pattern of scummy behavior the entire game (see: Cooldog and Rayfrost), with an unprovable and pro-scum role claim.

My vote is already on Rayfrost and his slot. I do not have to move my vote further.

[Old Man]

two things I think of is gating the roleblock shot if we lynch wrong securing the last kill

then the scenario where both ya'll are together and you aren't PGO or something.

It's only a good option if we lynch scum today, agreed. If we don't lynch scum today, our only hope is that Momrangal is town and can succesfully block, so in that situation, she can do whatever.

and yeah, a Mom-me pairing is indeed the biggest weakness of the plan, a possibility you will need to take into consideration.

---

@Old Man: if there is an obv pro-town proven powerrole in the game, it's kison. He has shown knowledge of information that scum couldn't know, by correctly tracking rofl. And even him I wouldn't call fully cleared.

The one investigation your role has given us was information that scum would also know. There's no way that knowing that info proves to us that you're not scum. Particularly because you're showing the hallmark behaviour of scum trying to take the credit for a succesful bus.

As for my predecessor's play: in post #1338, shortly after replacing in, RayFrost explained that he would be minimally present as he didn't really have motivation to play mafia. He proceeded to be continually inactive from there. It's not pro-town play, but all it shows is that he had no motivation to play his role. Which is completely consistent with being a claimed PGO and seeing that on page 2 it was decided that he would be mislynched eventually. CoolDog was somewhat more active, but he was also in a state of perpetual catchup, implying not enough time to actually play the game, for which he was eventually replaced. If you want to argue their behaviour was scummy, you'll have to do better then what you've given us thus far.

As for my role being unprovable: in #1773 I suggested a way to prove it.

The problem with your "case" is that it is entirely full of baseless accusations. If you want to make a cogent argument for why you think I am scum, you need to substantiate it with proof and evidence, instead of allegations of "bussing", which can be made willy-nilly and without backing.

Your arguments further are flawed because of the fact that they are weak circular arguments that rely on the predicate that my slot must first be scum. For example: "Old Man is scum because he is bussing.". In order for this to be true, Old Man must first be scum, otherwise, how else could he be bussing? However, one with basic mental acuity would realize how awful this a slippery slope would make. Similarly goes for the rest of the baseless accusations.

Again, I applaud you for your efforts, but I am not an inkling surprised that such a manner would come out of the Rayfrost slot, which literally had to be lynched before LYLO, yet is not the reality. Honestly, your team was only lucky that they have come this far only because roflcopter set us back a few lynches because of his slapstick antics.