Mini 566: Justice League Mafia Game Over

[Haschel Cedricson]

Vote Mirth

for no apparent reason.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Please, please don't group America and democracy without some reference to sarcasm, irony or jokes.

I as well hate Bu$h and Amerikkka YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE BUT YOUR CHAINS FIGHT THE POWER.

Unvote Mirth, vote: roffman

.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I was indeed mocking roffman, as evidenced by my vote for him. I don't believe anybody seriously uses "Bu$h" or "Amerikkka" anymore. I love America, despite it's flaws. It appears our Assie friend does not.

As for Riktus, I think most of you are putting too much stock into it, although admittedly, my first thought was Maz Medias posting a poem on Day 1 of Illustrated Mafia.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Perhaps we should say claim who we are NOT.

I'll go first. I am not Icemaiden. ZONEACE, your turn.

[Haschel Cedricson]

not neceesarily, The obly superhero thaat's guranateed to be vanilla is Aquaman, because the pwer to talk to fish is fucking worthless. Unless, of course, somebody has the rolename of "fish" and they are masons with Aquaman. Heh

I don't think a flavor claim is going to do any good whatsoever, so I don't think we should do one. BTW my earlier proposal that we claim who we are not is obviously a joke because obviously that wouldn't do anything., Now, I forget who suggesting we masssclaim right now, and I'm drunk so I"m not going to bother to check, but I want to hear you justify why a claim on the first day is a good thing. in fact [b[Vote: Whoever suggested the massclaim[/b] because really a creativ emod would make zure that a massclaim couldnt'possibly break the game. EVEN SOME ROLES THAT ARE ALMOST SURELY IN HERE SUCH AS BATMNAN rn't guaranteed to have powers.

On a non-gme related note, can somebody explain to me the difference between the Superfriendds and the Justice League? Because the're a lot of overlap if I recall correctly.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I think it's more important to figure out who BATMNAN is.

BATMNAN is the superhero who shows up when I'm drunk and can't figure out how to turn off the Caps Lock.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Hmm. cicero brought up the idea of a massclaim, and after that, he has expressed no opinions of his own about whether or not it is a good idea. My gut feeling suggests that he's trying to suggest things in a way that allows him to later claim that he was only "starting discussion" if things don't go how he intended.

It's not worth a vote yet, and I need to reread, but right now I think that cicero is a better lynch than Capricious.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Unvote, Vote Khelvaster

.

The only thing somebody claiming vanilla townie would do is narrow down where the powerroles might be.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Posting this in all my games:

I haven't forgotten the game. This week is Dead Week at my university, which means I basically get to pull three all-nighters in a row. The only sleep I've gotten in the last two days has been the occasional 40-minute nap on a couch in the student union because I physically was unable to keep working. I understand day is still going on, but I am in no physical or mental condition to reread right now. Wednesday night or Thursday I should be better.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I acknowledge my prod. I'll make a longer post after I take care of some things for my History class.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Okay, I'm done with Dead Week and Finals Week, so I should be able to become participatory again.

Here's what I don't like about Khelvaster. He asks somebody to "prove him wrong by claiming a generic, unnamed townie." Let's pretend somebody took him up on that offer and claimed something delightfully generic. Now we have one person that is certainly not a powerrole, so the odds of an actual powerrole being targeted increase. In addition, if a generic townie proves Khelvaster wrong, then it would imply that Khel is NOT a generic townie, which would imply a powerrole, which potentially leads to the town losing a powerrole right away just so Khelvaster can confirm-or-deny a theory about mass-claiming.

If you are town, the above scenario is not a good one, so you don't propose it.

If you are scum, the above scenario can lead to an increase of finding powerroles, along with the possibility of a WIFOM game the next day.

Khelvaster's offer of

someone can prove this proposition utterly worthless right now by claiming a vanilla, nameless townie.

is scummy.

In addition, when told about the disadvantages of massnameclaiming, Khelvaster comes up with a possible scenario on why it

might

be a good idea after all, ignoring the fact that the odds of having a bulletproof townie who can claim are not very good, or that the scum might actually have safeclaims. At some point Occam's Razor applies; sure, nameclaiming might help us 5% of the time, but it will fuck us over the remaining 95%.

Khelvaster is the best choice for a lynch today.

As for Thesp, I understand your case on WhoMe?, but I'm surprised that you find it to be the best case possible. Is WhoMe? really scummier than Khelvaster? I'm also wary of how when asked why you were happy with your vote, your answer was a simple "I think WhoMe? is scum," instead of a more-detailed "WhoMe? has done x, y, and z, making me think WhoMe? is scum."

[Haschel Cedricson]

basing a defense of someone ENTIRELY on BS wifom is counterporductive as well. Thesp's entire post is craplogic. thats not productive.

Scum are forced to make arguments that they know are not true. If Thesp believes Capricious' logic is consistent with itself, that's not craplogic.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I'm on 56k dial-up Internet this week, so I may not be able to check the thread very often.

That said, thanks for replacing in, Sethaniel. I look forward to seeing more of your thoughts.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I return to high-speed Internet tomorrow, so I'll be able to reread the game then.

Until then, I'm not sure that ZONACE is coming back, because if he did, he'd be mod-confirmed town.

Other food for thought: how many scum are we looking at here? I know the standard amount is three, and if we also have an SK, and the third death makes me believe that we do, that puts the town close to a dangerous situation.

Right, be back tomorrow.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I'm working on a long post right now. Give me a few minutes.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Alright. Here's a list of everybody that the seven of you have voted for throughout the game. The numbers after each vote and unvote are the amount of votes that the action leaves on the person, i.e. "Unvote(3) means that the person unvoted had four votes prior to being unvoted, and "Vote Haschel Cedricson(1) means that that vote put me at one vote.

Sethaniel/Actr:
Post 0: Vote: WhoMe(1)
Replacement
Post 1 Unvote.(1)

Capricious:
Post 0: Vote: Cicero(1)
Post 22: Unvote(0), Vote Roffman(1)

Singing Librarian/Cicero:
Post 0: Vote: ZONEACE(1)
Post 1: Unvote(0), Vote: Riktus(1)
Post 14: Unvote(0), Vote: Capricious(3)
Post 19: Unvote(3), Vote Haschel Cedricson(1)
Replacement:
Post 1: Unvote(0), Vote Capricious(3)
Post 3: Unvote(2)

Thesp
Post 0: Vote: Actr(2)
Post 11: Unvote(1), Vote: WhoMe(2)
Day Two
Vote: Sierra(1)

Mirth
Post 0: Vote: Roffman(1)
Post 14: Unvote(1), Vote: Cicero(2)
Post 18: Unvote(1), Vote: Capricious(4)
Post 21: Unvote(4), Vote: ZONEACE(1)
Post 42: Unvote(0)
Post 54: Vote: Khelvaster(4)
Day Two
Post 67: Vote: Thesp(1)

Ooba/Riktus
Post 0: Vote: Actr(1)

Sierra
Post 0: Vote Capricious(1)
Post 6: Unvote Capricious(2), Vote Khelvaster(2)
Post 8: Unvote Khelvaster(3), Vote Capricious(2)
Day Two
Post 12: Vote Capricious(1)


Analysis coming up.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Haschel: sooooo what is it that these voting patterns tell you exactly?

Admittedly not as much as I had hoped for. I see that you're willing to place people at L-3 but not L-2, Thesp moves his vote very rarely, and most of the votes on Capricious have came from either Sierra or SingingLibrarian/Cicero, with a significant vote coming from Mirth. This latter part could be important, because I think that Capricious is town.

There are eight people left, including myself. If we assume a three-man Mafia group plus an SK, then we're looking at half the remaining players being scum. Even if the Mafia is only two people, that's 3/8 scum remaining. At some point I have to look for connections between players, and the most striking thing that I've noticed is that Mirth only votes for Cicero once, Cicero never votes for Mirth, and yet the midgame is mostly the two of you arguing back and forth.

So, here are the main things in this game that I find suspicious:
* Cicero and Sierra, and to a slightly lesser extent Mirth, attacking Capricious,
* Cicero and Mirth never voting or FoSing each other, despite a large argument,
* Mirth and Sierra rarely start the wagons, but instead join others in progress. In particular, Mirth has tipped the balance twice, bringing both Capricious and Khelvaster from "People are expressing suspicion" to "Feasibly likely to be the day's lynch.

I have few more things I want to talk about, but the Siren Song of class beckons, and I must heed it's call. For now, though, Mirth is a common thread in the Things I Find Wrong With This Game, and I feel safe enough to

Vote: Mirth

.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I noticed your earlier vote on Cicero. I also noticed that you phrased it "whoever suggested mass-claiming on day 1...cicero?", which strikes me as slightly off, although I will freely admit I can't explain why. Khel was indeed scummier, but I'm not convinced about Capricious.

As for the vote on ZONEACE, I feel that ZONEACE explained his L-2 vote, and then you kept it there for a long time despite never really arguing for his lynch. I don't understand that play.

I didn't include myself for two reasons:
1) The vote chart was mostly for my benefit, and I don't need to analyze my own voting patterns.
2) If I had included myself, somebody else would have had to doublecheck anyway, because, hey, I could have made numbers up in hopes that nobody would check.

Lastly, I have nothing to say about Ooba/Riktus that wouldn't be hypocritical. I'm not going to claim to have been Posty McGee here, but I do have more free time now and I intend to get better. I was going to do all of this last week, but getting a custom title about posting drunk isn't really high up on my priority list.

Anyhoo, I am aware that a good deal of my logic uses the premise that Capricious is town. Tonight or tomorrow I shall revisit that premise to see if it still holds, but for now, I see nothing wrong with my play today.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Notice: I will be in Minnesota for the next few days, so don't expect me to post.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I don't think ZONEACE is coming back. If he did come back, we would all know that he was Atom, the Hider. He would be a mod-confirmed townie. I'm pretty sure that the justice thing is just flavor for death. Hell, that could have even been the vig kill; a high-ranking JL member removing players from the game by sending them on a mission.

All this flavor speculation is, of course, pointless.

What's not pointless, though, is that ZONEACE is not coming back. The fact that you [Mirth] suggest he [ZONEACE] might worries me, because in the context of this conversation, it comes across as you saying "Don't worry about LYLO yet, because you might get another player back!" The town has every reason to keep potential LYLO in mind, and the scum have every reason to dissuade the town of such notions.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I stil believe that Mirth is the best lycnhe for toxahy becauseshe's been scummy6 throughut the game. Actually I suppose that isn't acurate byt I fyou look zt the last big post I mare she raises the most red flags qnd tis therefore porably the best lynchtm for the day.

If I had to guess, her partners would be Cicero and Seirrra and Singing LIbrarian instead of ciCero. In fact now that I think about thae game SInging Librarian has spent a lto of time telling wus what the Justice League would or would not do as inf to distract us from the game at hand bu getting us to focus on the set up. ATHIS ISNT' NECESERRYILY A GOOD MOVE FUCK ITURNS ON CAPS LICK SORRUY BOUT THAT ANYHOO MYU ORDER3 GOES MIRTH NUMNBER ONE THEN SINGING LIBRARIAN IT COULD E ARGUED THAT A DESIRE TO RQATIONALIZE TOO MANY THINGS ACCORDING TO THE THERME IS REPRESTNATIVE OF A DIESIRE TO KEEP THE FOCUS ON THE THEM ISNSETED OF THE ADDRIRXON OF THE PAKLYUERS.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Sorry. Translation:

I still believe that Mirth is the best lynch for today because she's been scummy throughout the game. Actually, I suppose that isn't accurate but if you look at the last big post I made she raises the most red flags and is therefore probably the best lynch for the day.

If I had to guess, her partners would be Cicero and Sierra and Singing Librarian instead of Cicero. In fact, now that I think about the game, Singing Librarian has spent a lot of time telling us what the Justice League would or would not do as if to distract us from the game at hand by getting us to focus on the set-up. This isn't necessarily a good move.

At this point I turned on Caps Lock and couldn't figure out how to turn it off.

Anyhoo, my order goes Mirth number one, then Singing Librarian. It could be argued that a desire to rationalize too many things according to the theme is representative of a desire to keep the focus on the theme instead of the

???

of the players.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Either you're twisting my words or your memory is hazy.

Hmm. Looking back, you're right. For some reason your opening post stuck with me, and I misremembered.

Sorry 'bout that.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Unvote Mirth

.

Capricious's statement has nullified a major thing that made me believe he was town. Reevaluation coming later.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I find Mirth's claim highly believable and compelling, partly because I've seen her play as town throughout the entire game, but also because my flavor fits spot on as to why she couldn't mind read me. Mirth might well be 100% effective.

Are you saying that you couldn't be read because of your flavor or because of your role?

[Haschel Cedricson]

Cap doesn't necessarily need to full-claim, but he does need to answer my question.

[Haschel Cedricson]

So you are using flavor instead of role to clear Mirth, is that correct?

[Haschel Cedricson]

It would help determine if you are town or not.

[Haschel Cedricson]

EBWOP: Simply put, one answer will convince me that you are definitely town, and the other will convince me that you are scum.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Alright then.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Alright, let's assume that Mirth's claim is true. After all that, I believe Capricious's claim. I remembered that SL was the next on my list, but much of my reasoning was assuming that Mirth was scum.

Vote: Sierra

. Sierra made a case of Capricious about a month ago but has been fairly noncommittal to the game since then. There's been a lot of speculation and not a lot of conclusion.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Mirth: What results do you have?

[Haschel Cedricson]

I'm guessing there are two killing factions (a killing faction being a mafia or a SK) and the "Gone to serve justice" note is a method of 'killing' by one of the factions.

I'm still going by the theory that ZONEACE chose to hide behind roffman or WhoMe?.

So if going to serve justice is a kill method, and ZONEACE died because he was hiding behind another player, why did ZONEACE's target not also go to serve justice?

[Haschel Cedricson]

I'm going to

vote: Singing Librarian

.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Haschel, I want to know why you believe I am pro-town just because I am using flavor instead of tole to clear Mirth.

Because I do not believe that you have a role.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Unvote

.

Thesp is right. We need to hit Mafia today.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Unvote

.

Thesp is right. We need to hit Mafia today.

Since I know you'll all ask for elaboration, I think SL may be the SK.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Im also going to have to throw a huge FOS at Haschel as scum buddies with Thesp and Capricious, for his hasty vote on SL (were in LYLO...voting is bad). Im also going to have to retract my opinion that Sierra is town. Calling for massclaim in LYLO with scum probably outnumbering town = BAD idea. I need to go now.

So, you think that you and SL are the only townspeople left?

We're looking at a two-man scumgroup with an SK. Any more scum and the game would have ended.

Im also going to have to throw a huge FOS at Haschel...for his hasty vote on SL (were in LYLO...voting is bad).

I agree it was hasty; I did not run the numbers before voting.

Singing Librarian should not die today. Sierra should, though. His failure to be lynched is a blight upon our town. Seriously.

Sierra was my top choice for Mafia yesterday, and remains so today. Mirth would be my pick for partner right now.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I think Sierra makes a well-reaasoned argument in his last post. Obviously I'm biasd, so take that as you will.

It was my intention to do a reread of Sierra right now, but I am sober enough to understand that I am drunk enough to not find aything useful.

As for the question SL asked, I am not goind to answer it right now.

I will reread at some point tomorrow, hopefully.

[Haschel Cedricson]

The order is ready when everybody else is.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Right.

1) Singing Librarian
2) Sierra
3) Thesp
4) Capricious
5) Haschel Cedricson

[Haschel Cedricson]

I have class now, dramabomb later.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Right. I am Booster Gold. I know that the Justice League has been infiltrated by the Manhunters, and it's my job to find the android Rocket Red #7.

Night 1 I targeted Thesp. He is not Rocket Red #7.
Night 2 I targeted Sethaniel. Obviously he wasn't Rocket Red #7.

Now, the "gone to fight justice" Day Scene message is obviously the kill method of the Manhunter android. Whoever is Rocket Red #7 is the SK.

I figured that Singing Librarian was Rocket Red #7 because if Mirth's claim were to be believed, Thesp wasn't it, and Sierra was mafia (something I believed this morning but not now), then it had to be between Cap and SL. Of the two, I felt that Cap was town, and SL had made a bunch of comments about how ZONEACE might come back and "What/who made Zoneace and Sethaniel disappear?" that rubbed me the wrong way. I still believe that SL is the SK, because I find it convenient that SL happens to be a robot and has NK-immunity. NK-immunity is often the sort of benefit given to an SK to balance a game.

Now, if SL is Rocket Red #7, then SL cannot be the Joker. Also, I find it doubtful that there are two roles like mine in the game. Out of me and Thesp, who is lying?

Thesp is, and here's why.

We have seen a kill method that is Manhunter-esque. We have not seen a kill method reminiscent of the Joker. Sierra has claimed Batman, and there have been no counterclaims of vig. Thesp telling the truth would mean 25% of the players would be characters from the Batman universe, and I think our mod has tried to spread things out a bit more.

So, if Thesp is lying, then he is Mafia.

As for Capricious: I've had you pegged as a vanilla townie for most of the game. During the massclaim discussion, you stated

Maybe you guys have experience/flavor information that cause you to believe names could b associated with powers, whatever, I have none.

Now you claim a role that makes sense from your flavor. You were either lying then or are lying now.

Sierra has gone from my main choice as Mafia to the only one of you I unconditionally trust.

I still find it a little suspicious of how Mirth's powers have failed both nights.

Anyhoo, I'm ready to vote for Thesp right now, but I imagine you all will want time to talk. You have until about midnight Pacific Time, and then my vote is going down. We need to lynch Mafia today. Thesp is not the SK, and he's certainly not town.

See you all tonight.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I would like clarification on why the manhunter android's kill method is obviously "gone to fight justice", and whether or not the manhunters are also the mafia scum group.

According to the wiki, the Manhunter androids "infiltrated and liberated many planets disguised as living beings and created a "Cult of the Manhunters" that trained others to be their minions." Since the original purpose of the Manhunters was to see justice done, it's not much of a stretch to assume that the Manhunter SK killed ZONEACE and Sethaniel when you already know that Rocket Red #7 is in the game.

As for why I don't think the Manhunters are the Mafia scum group: My role doesn't say that I find out if my target is a Manhunter or not; I find out if they are a specific Manhunter android or not.

Since I do believe this is a 3/1 set up, there's a 3 to 1 chance of hitting mafia, which is town needs to do to stop mafia from winning. Now then since half the remaining players are mafia, in order to get a mafia lynch, the person lynched needs to be betrayed by a teammate, yes?

First off, I don't believe that this is a 3/1 setup. Second, if it was a three-mafia crew, they would not need to bus one of their own. They would do everything they could to convince the remaining three players that one of those three was Mafia, because that would end the game. Call WIFOM if you wish, but my actions today have all but assured that SL will not be lynched today. Why, as a Mafia member in a potentially game-winning situation, reduce the pool?

If your theory was correct (it's not) then at this point I would be doing everything in my power to get you mislynched right now, because that way I could win the game without having to worry about getting killed by the SK or vigged by BATNMAN.

Instead...

So, Haschel and Sierra: Thesp or Mirth?

...I'm choosing Thesp.

Vote: Thesp

[Haschel Cedricson]

Where in the world does this come from?

I love how you just presume this - A sign posted "Gone to serve justice. Good Bye." and a missing person sure sounds like something The Joker would do, and I can't seem to find any imaginable way that it's fitting for Rocket Red #7.

According to the wiki, the Manhunter androids "infiltrated and liberated many planets disguised as living beings and created a "Cult of the Manhunters" that trained others to be their minions." Since the original purpose of the Manhunters was to see justice done, it's not much of a stretch to assume that the Manhunter SK killed ZONEACE and Sethaniel when you already know that Rocket Red #7 is in the game.

When I first read this, I thought I would be searching for a Cult Leader. When I saw three kills on Day 1, I assumed Mafia, SK, and Vig. The emotionless nature of the notes seems, to me, to be suggestive of somebody who has been reprogrammed to be in a cult.

A sign and a missing person does not sound like something the Joker would do at all. The Joker would use an electric joybuzzer or a novelty sword-pen or that trademark poison that makes people die of laughter.

Except that flatout voting the obvious SK when everyone knows we're in LYLO is pretty much declaring "anyone who is on this wagon is scum, so come join us, gullible townie, and make winning easier."

I have already admitted that I did not run the numbers. My instinct is almost always to reduce the number of nightkills when I think I have the SK figured out. I'm aware it looks bad, but it was just a mistake. Scum like Thesp aren't the only ones who can slip up, you know.

Haschel, how do you explain Thesp knowing to claim such a role?

I think he guessed an uncommon role and got burned when it actually was in the game.

Good job confirming yourself as the SK. If I'm town, then my results must be right.

The latter does not follow the former. Besides, SL claimed a role that is a robot, much like Rocket Red #7*, and has a NK-immunity. If I had targeted SL last night, that wouldn't make BOTH of us right when SL was the SK.

The only way SL indicates you are telling the truth would be if SL flat-out said "I am the Joker."

SL: Are you the Joker?

[Haschel Cedricson]

I agree with Haschel that poisonous gas is more Joker's style, but I don't think the serving justice thing was cult like...I can't quite place it though.

The original goal of the Manhunters was to keep order and justice in the universe. If somebody had been brainwashed into joining the Cult of the Manhunters, they would take on the same objectives.

Just like I don't think you're being honest about Manhunters. Awfully coincidental since I'm the

Martian Manhunter

...

As far as I can tell, the two are related only in that the Manhunter robots were named after the Manhunters of Mars. In fact, the Justice League TV show always referred to Martian Manhunter as "J'onn J'onzz" to avoid confusion.

I know Oracle is the former Batgirl, now holding court in a wheelchair and mentoring orphans. Sadly dripping sarcasm fails to transmit via the interwebs.

I got the joke, and even thought "Oh snap" to myself afterwards.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Capricious: Me or Thesp?

[Haschel Cedricson]

I think it's suspicious that the mod didn't ask you for clarification or anything like that, but I also don't like how Capricious is bringing this up now when we've already discussed it and acts as if it were a new discovery.

Either one of you could be scum, but not both. Thesp is. Sierra is not. I am not. SL is the SK.

Thesp remains my vote for the day.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Vote Count:

Capricious (1) - Mirth
Mirth (1) - Capricious
Haschel Cedricson (1) - Thesp
Thesp (1) - Haschel Cedricson

With 6 alive, its 4 to lynch.

Singing Librarian, Sierra, vote for each other to make things symmetrical.*

*This is a joke do not actually do this.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Are you suggesting that he could think I'm town while I'm claiming to have role-based infromation that he's the SK (and he's not the SK)?

Sorry, I misread what you said. I thought you were saying if he was the SK then you were town. However, SL DID say:

I think it's possible, given the level of power in the town, that the mafia have some sort of power role to mess with the three investigative roles' results.

Anyhoo,

I disagree with your assessment in so, so many ways.

Care to explain what these ways are? I think my assessment makes a lot more sense than assuming the Joker is in the game.

[Haschel Cedricson]

EBWOP:

I cannot imagine why anyone but Haschel Cedricson or I should be the lynch for the day. (Obviously, I think I should not be the lynch for the day and it should be HC, but I understand it may not be as evident from the 3rd person). It's evident that either HC or I are mafia (as HC has pointed out), and I cannot imagine a compelling enough case on someone else that one of us should swing.

Replace my name with "Thesp" and I agree completely.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I can't imagine how a posted sign indicates "Martian Manhunter".

Manhunter android, not Martian Manhunter.

Culting people away would be so antithetical to the concept of the game as revealed

Can you elaborate on this? I don't understand what you mean.

(and wouldn't allow for doc protection from a thematic perspective),

Sure it would. If Capricious is telling the truth, then doc protection works by making the target invisible. You can't cult people away if you can't find them.

whereas The Joker killing someone and mocking the do-gooders with such a sign would be right up his alley.

This still sounds like a stretch to me.

Anyhoo, I recall a game where the SK was a priest that sent people on a Crusade. Culting people away is hardly a new concept here. I'll try to find it.

[Haschel Cedricson]

EBWOP:

Anyhoo, I recall a game where the SK was a priest that sent people on a Crusade. Culting people away is hardly a new concept here. I'll try to find it.

Search isn't helping me at all, but it was a GreenLiquid game where everybody had a post restriction.

[Haschel Cedricson]

If you are not the Joker, then wouldn't Occam's Razor say that Thesp is lying and somebody else is Rocket Red #7?

[Haschel Cedricson]

I hardly think Occam's Razor applies here.

It absolutely applies here. I'm going to outline how your reaction should be if you are not the Joker. For simplicities sake, I will not focus on my counterclaiming Thesp, although somebody else is free to do so.

Postulate: You are telling the truth and are not the Joker.

Thesp has stated that you are the Joker. This statement is false, as per our postulate.

So if Thesp is not telling the truth, how can this be explained?

1) Thesp is intentionally lying, or
2) Thesp is unintentionally lying.

If Thesp is intentionally lying, why would he do that? He could be scum, or he could have some other knowledge that you are scum and wants to use the Joker thing to get you lynched without revealing whatever else it is that he knows.

If Thesp is unintentionally lying, then either Thesp has misinterpreted his results or somebody else has interfered with his results. This could be done by a Mafia Framer, or a Bus Driver role of some sort.

A Framer makes innocent people appear guilty to investigations. I've never seen a Framer role that would make it's targets appear as specific people. This is not to say it couldn't happen, but it seems unlikely to me. We have had no evidence of a Bus Driver role in the game.

Granted, we have not seen what powers the Mafia have. However, there are clearly four possibilities here, ranked from simplest to most complex:

1) Thesp is lying scum.
2) Thesp misinterpreted his role or his results
3) There is a variation of a Mafia Framer in the game that allows targets to appear as a specific villains that another role is searching for.
4) Thesp has some unrevealed information that you are scum, and he is choosing not to reveal exactly what this information is in a Ly-lo situation.

I'm sure Thesp will agree that 2) did not happen. The way he's described his role, if he were telling the truth, it would be pretty ambiguous as to whether he received a result of "Joker" or "Not Joker".

So, between 1), 3), and 4), we have about the same evidence for either one*. I find it odd that your initial reaction is that 3) is true instead of 1) when, all other things being equal, 1) relies the least on making assumptions that can't be verified right now.

*Obviously I think there is more evidence for 1) because of my role, but I'll let the rest of you sort that out for yourselves.

[Haschel Cedricson]

EBWOP: I'll admit that the second part of my question in post 601 doesn't necessarily follow, so don't tear me apart on that.

[Haschel Cedricson]

You, however, were trying to keep your partner from getting lynched as the SK.

Wait, so SL is my partner now? I thought I was trying to bus my other partner Thesp in order to prevent my other partner Cap from being lynched.

Thesp is trying to get the SK lynched (he probably got that through process of deduction, since Sierra isn't the SK, you and Cap aren't the SK because you're scum with Thesp, and that leaves me and SL, he had to accuse one of us and hope to be right. )

I'm not moving my vote, and Thesp has stated the same. If you're so sure that Thesp or myself are mafia, why not put your money where your mouth is and vote one of us? I highly recommend Thesp, since he's Mafia and has lied about SL being the Joker.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Ah, hoping for the self-hammer, I see.

Today's lynch will be either Thesp or I, because nobody else can get four votes on them.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Haschel, could you respond how you feel about this:

On the surface it would appear to support Thesp, but I think it's coincidence. If not for Thesp's claim, that post wouldn't have gotten any attention at all, and I don't believe it was intended as a breadcrumb. Thesp's an experienced enough mod that he probably meant exactly what he said there.

Gah. The hardest part of this game isn't catching the liars; it's proving they're lying to everybody else.

Question for you, Sierra. Do you see Batman, The Joker, and Oracle/Batgirl as being a fourth of the characters in a game that is supposed to draw upon the entire Justice League?

[Haschel Cedricson]

Unvote; Vote: Haschel Cedricson

as I believe Thesp's claim more than I believe his. I am still a bit more confident about Cap's scumminess than HC's, though. If it becomes clear that there are sufficient people who agree on this, then I will move my vote back.

With regard to post 610, I agree that it's unlikely that Thesp was breadcrumbing intentionally. I think it was probably unconscious, but it still adds some more weight to the idea that Thesp is town.

Why are you believing the claim that states you are the Joker, if you are claiming not to be the Joker?

[Haschel Cedricson]

How do you explain Thesp claiming a role

exactly

like yours? Was it pure coincidence? Is that his actual ability, but he's still mafia? Did he find out what your ability was somehow and decide to claim it first? Or do you have some other explanation?

I explain it the same way you would explain it if I had claimed vigilante who killed roffman before you did. The only difference is that an SKcop is a more uncommon role.

Thesp is lying. We can debate all we want about whether sending somebody on a mission is similar to cult reprogramming, but I think everybody but Thesp has agreed that it definitely is NOT something that the Joker would do. The Joker does not make sense. Thesp does not make sense. SL voting for me over Thesp does not makes sense. It might if SL was the Joker, but SL IS NOT THE JOKER. NOBODY IS THE JOKER.

It's a possibility.

Sure, it's a possibility. BUt I don't think it's a very likely one, especially when it's already been reveal that we have some relatively obscure characters in here, like the Phantom Stranger and General Glory.

However, I fail to see why you're both so convinced that one of you must be scum, when I see much better suspects in Cap and Mirth.

I say that because I KNOW Thesp is lying, and his defense has been to accuse me of lying.

If SL *is* the joker (i don't believe this either) then he can't very well admit it, can he. If Thesp isn't lying...

Translation: "Here's a theory I admit I don't believe, but it supports both of you being scum, so here you go."

And happy birthday, Haschel Cedricscum!

I accept the birthday wishes, but not the title of "Cedricscum".

[Haschel Cedricson]

If I had to pick, I'd go Mirth over Cap because I don't like the way she's telling everybody that the Thesp/Me thing is some elaborate bussing plan.

This is frustrating for me because I KNOW Thesp is scum, and voting for anybody else could end the game today.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Unvote. Vote Capricious

If this is the only way to avoid a mislynch, then so be it.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Damn. I thought Sierra was going to kill Mirth, and that's why I went for Thesp. My plan was to declare SL to be RR#7 the next day and ride that to victory.

Good game, scum. Even when I knew who you were, I couldn't do anything about it.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I honestly thought there were only two scum and I thought I could get Thesp lynched.

I thought something was horribly wrong with SL when he kept finding me more suspicious than the person who was actively calling him the Joker. That should red flags.

[Haschel Cedricson]

My highlight was when HC declared me to be the SK, and Thesp latched on to it - I had to laugh out loud. I was then stuck with the difficult job of trying to act as though I was trying to persuade people that I wasn't the serial killer. I was sure I was doing a dreadful job (and feel free to tell me if I was), but although suspicion was voiced, it was only Sierra who ever voted for me after that point and only briefly. I can't believe neither HC nor Sierra targeted me last night - I was fully expecting Sierra and Mirth to be in the end game as we would have killed HC had he and Sierra not got choices in first.

HC, you had me guessing right up until the end whether you or Cap was the serial killer.

We were pretty lucky in that the town power roles were eliminated quickly.

Fascinated to know who was targeted by ooba and Cap each night.

Yeah, obviously I had to hit Mafia last night, and Thesp was the only person I was 100%-sure about, since obviously I knew who the real serial killer was. Besides, I thought for sure the Sierra would hit Mirth after the mislynch.

Obviously Ooba didn't investigate me, but I really wish the rest of you had believed he did.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Oh, you're right. I was thinking of Thesp's claim. (All I remembered was "Joker")

Why'd you kill me, RR#7?

Ooba's PBPA on you the day before suggested that you could have been scum. I know the usual strategy for an SK is to hit town at night and lynch Mafia in the day, but with so many pro-town roles dying at night, I felt I had to go for someone I thought was Mafia.

When I discovered you were town the next day, I was very upset.