Mini 1936: Yume's Cutsie U-Pick (Town Win!)

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: Reasonably Rational

Guilty until proven innocent.

Justified

@Aristo: Does shortening names, such as the RR frequently used for our hydra(though I guess that will be confusing with rat around too) count, or do you want some special awesome nicknames?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

The post restricion is already making it difficulty for me to identify who is being talked about at times. Who is Chansey? A link to the post where the nickname is connected to the slot would be sufficient.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Ruby! We can worry about Ruby later.

Not really seeing as how our plan is to get nightkilled.

Indeed. TBH, it seems quite improbable that this particular hydra doesn't end up shot sooner rather than later. I'd reserve worrying about them for lylo, or a day out if you're really concerned.

The unfounded townread point is somewhat reasonable I guess, but I suppose I just haven't seen the currently speaking head as scum often enough to have RC's strength of conviction. I don't recall any defense of scumbuddies coming out in Inorganic Chemistry, but that game was quite some time ago.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

anti-town RC is scum!RC.

You know full well that this is not true.

Seconded. RC is quite capable of being very anti-town, as town, in my limited experience. Simply their posting style alone is arguably anti-town...so that argument really doesn't hold any water.

Do you have some reason to believe that Saph?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I have asked repeatedly for reasons to be given.

And we've told you repeatedly you're not likely to get them.

I don't need detailed reasons, but an answer of gut, meta, or other, would be helpful.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

RC, what's your certainty level here on your read?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

And I want the real answer, not the "I'm going to push this fucking lynch through with complete conviction even though I'm not actually 100%" answer.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

anti-town RC is scum!RC.

You know full well that this is not true.

Seconded. RC is quite capable of being very anti-town, as town, in my limited experience. Simply their posting style alone is arguably anti-town...so that argument really doesn't hold any water.

Do you have some reason to believe that Saph?

-Cerb

That's how I was taught to read him by Nahds.
It hasn't failed me yet.
Look for town motivation in the anti-town. If you don't see it, he's scum.
If RC were trying to read me, he would have bounced reads with me. He's not trying to read me and I am notoriously easy to read.

Interesting. So you don't believe there's town motivation in strongly pushing a scum read, and demanding answers for the reasons behind that read? What part of this behavior, exactly, do you find anti-town, with no town motivations? Is it just that he's insisting on getting answers before moving on to new topics?

I have asked repeatedly for reasons to be given.

And we've told you repeatedly you're not likely to get them.

I don't need detailed reasons, but an answer of gut, meta, or other, would be helpful.

-Cerb

How would gut be helpful if they aren't going to explain what's giving them said gut feeling? How would meta be helpful if you're not very familiar with either of them and have limited time?

- Scott

I don't have limited time, not really, really just depends on whether or not I'm going to focus on this game, and I already asked Drixx if I could just phone it in and he said no.

To answer the question though...it's more a matter of forcing some sort of reason for the stance, in order to nail them to a limited array of explanations when, as they inevitably will, they end up explaining this townread in detail. It will also allow me to decide how much weight to give the read.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

To answer the question though...it's more a matter of forcing some sort of reason for the stance, in order to nail them to a limited array of explanations when, as they inevitably will, they end up explaining this townread in detail. It will also allow me to decide how much weight to give the read.

Your method was essentially what RC was doing but in a manner that didn't come across as exactly that. You were trying to get us to state whether it was role related just as much as RC was. You just didn't want it to look that way, is what I read from your post.

Umm, no. I already determined that it's almost certainly not role related. If it were, you wouldn't have started out the game with random townreads that would draw attention to the connection. The only question is whether some meta thing like you pointed out would be used to explain it later on, or if it would just be waved away as a gut read...or possibly a tell that they'd refuse to give us more information on.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

S&R, it's not about what's good enough for others. I want to know for my own sake of reading their slot going forward. I agree with you that forcing them to justify scum reads is good at this stage, but I believe there's no chance they'll actually do that at this point...because those justifications require more detail than I'm asking for with regards to the Saph read. I specifically asked for vagueness to make it easier for them to answer without exposing any sort of info they don't want shared right now.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Ftr I do find DrixRus asking about my certainty in my read quite odd because my understanding was neither of them respected my reads very much, particularly not hellhound.

I don't. I wasn't going to actually listen to your reads, I wanted to know how much to expect out of you in terms of justification for it.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Masthead needs to calm the fuck down. This is the first post I'm making in the game thread, because the last time I refreshed it was still on page one.

If you're going to pull this shit where you just handwave and declare we're scum all game without any reason, then just fucking say so now so we can check out. We're not scum and I'm not going to dump a bunch of time into this game when you didn't even have the respect for me to have a proper real and meaningful talk with me after wasting weeks of my time, in a way which was particularly

devastating

to me, even with the modfather mediating. I'm simply not going to put up with that sort of bullshit again. The only reason we're in this game as a hydra instead of just Cerb alone, given that you are, is because the Yummiest player ever is here and happens to be one of our favorite people. They outweigh putting up with your nonsense, basically. Ever since SMITE, you have had a "gut" reason to call me scum, whether in or out of hydra, in every game we played together. You got lucky once. Try and learn something from that track record. I mean FFS I haven't even posted yet and you're pulling your usual shit.

To the sane among you: I just now had a chance to talk to Cerb about our role and I feel that we should claim a little: We have negative utility built into our role. Targeting us will never return information about us. It's not ascetic and it has a really weird name. It's totally related to our flavor (Which Cerb will hate me forever and ever and ever for making us choose as one of our choices) and it will make sense whenever we flip. We talked about not claiming it and seeing if we could have someone out a result on us and get everyone to commit to not having done it, and then out the liar, but this is a mini and I think it's far more likely it would not help at all and so it's better to put it out there so we don't lose utility elsewhere.

~D

P-Edit: Just to highlight how fucking bullshit Masthead is ... Masthead claims to scum read us because of how BOTH of us have responded to TheBrightestInstrument, and yet this is my first post. It's literally impossible for Masthead's claim to be true because I haven't posted word fucking one until this post. Way to fucking prove my point for me.

[Reasonably Rational]

What's my thing?

you said drixx was an easy read in sitechat

FUCK

It's okay just call him something generic like Dr. Doom.
(And no Dr. Doom that's not a name I choose out of a scumread on you I'd call you Dr. Doom even if you were my strongest townread just because it's the name I thought of for calling your something. Your name doesn't exactly nick very well unlike Cerb.)

I call him Drixxy Drixx, which I think is cutesy enough that Aristo should let it fly.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm sorry but I think you spent less than 200 words total talking to me. If you think that suffices for having a proper talk about someone you call a friend, I have absolutely no idea how to introduce you to reality, because clearly where you're living is so alien to reality you simply wouldn't have the frame of reference necessary.

Nobody reads my hydra partner accurately on day one. Any meta diving at all will show people are wildly wrong about him in literally every game. Including you.

If you're earnest, then talk to me for awhile, because this is a mini and I don't want to be a fucking mislynch because of your insecurities.

As far as your claim to be talking about us plus the ratlike one ... it didn't read that way to me. I read that as you referring to both heads of us and responded accordingly.

~D

So the one who claims to have 100% perfect accuracy at reading me (but hilariously does not even have a 50/50 correct rate) is TheBrightestInstrument ... think about it and it makes sense. Masthead should be the most obvious nickname ever.

[Reasonably Rational]

Btw.

To the sane among you: I just now had a chance to talk to Cerb about our role and I feel that we should claim a little: We have negative utility built into our role. Targeting us will never return information about us. It's not ascetic and it has a really weird name.

Oh I know you well enough to know you're not lying about your roleclaim here.

But I flat-out am basically counterclaiming you here and think this is you having the scum counterpart to our role.

THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT.
WE ARE FLATOUT COUNTERCLAIMING THE LOGICAL DUO.

I do not think that our roles coexist in the town.
So vote the logical duo.

You should really stop fishing. The probability of you having our role is basically nil. I don't believe it could be worked into a scum role. Since we have the role, it therefore follows logically that you are mistaken in an assumption you made. And stop fishing.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

@Ali: Pretty sure Chansey was the nickname they were using for part of the huge fight? So me asking who the fuck chansey is is me trying to figure out what the fight is about...

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Ali: Pretty sure Chansey was the nickname they were using for part of the huge fight? So me asking who the fuck chansey is is me trying to figure out what the fight is about...

-Cerb

Whats your current understanding of it currently?

Umm. That RC was suspicious of Saph's and TWC's mutual townreads due to prior experience with scum play on the part of at least one of them, where they showed a propensity to defend their scumbuddies.

It became pretty clear who they were talking about as more conversation happened, but I didn't remember who Chansey was supposed to be. Technically, I still don't remember if that's who the nickname was for, but I think it is based on the context? Otherwise, that bit doesn't really make sense.

@TWC: Maybe you should read Drixxy Drixx's next post?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Damnit RC.

Stop fucking up the post restriction.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

TWC: Maybe you should read Drixxy Drixx's next post?
-Cerb

The contents of what Dr. Doom quoted were present in the original quote.
I can't quite find the right word for that but.
Basically.

Everything that Dr. Doom responded to in 306 was present in 296. 305 was responding to 296, whereas 306 was responding to the later 304. So the question becomes--why didn't Dr. Doom respond to the contents of our roleclaim in 305? Why did he wait until 306 to do so, which was him responding to a separate post?

Dunno. He was probably just going to ignore you(because as he said, there's essentially no chance you could actually counterclaim us from what little we claimed, particularly given how unique our role is, and how it's more than what he claimed, but the relevant NU part is what he claimed), then decided to respond when you doubled down on the drivel.

He didn't tell me his reasoning though. so, that's just what I'm assuming.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

TWC: Maybe you should read Drixxy Drixx's next post?
-Cerb

The contents of what Dr. Doom quoted were present in the original quote.
I can't quite find the right word for that but.
Basically.

Everything that Dr. Doom responded to in 306 was present in 296. 305 was responding to 296, whereas 306 was responding to the later 304. So the question becomes--why didn't Dr. Doom respond to the contents of our roleclaim in 305? Why did he wait until 306 to do so, which was him responding to a separate post?

Dunno. He was probably just going to ignore you(because as he said, there's essentially no chance you could actually counterclaim us from what little we claimed, particularly given how unique our role is, and how it's more than what he claimed, but the relevant NU part is what he claimed), then decided to respond when you doubled down on the drivel.

He didn't tell me his reasoning though. so, that's just what I'm assuming.

-Cerb

I have quirks in how I process and respond to things. Interestingly ... I am pretty certain anyone who actually knows me well can read me on those quirks. I'm relatively certain that you should have already seen a town tell that I dropped specifically for you to catch. As always, I play things close early and observe and start to sketch out a framework for each player. It's a lot faster when I'm in hydra with Cerbypuff because we have remarkably similar methods of thinking and we can get a lot done.

What you need to know today is that whatever you think our role does based upon the neg utility post I made, you are almost certainly wrong. I would be flabbergasted if anyone could reason it out from what I shared. Please feel free to PM the mod a post for him to forward post-game if you think you have, but know you're 99.9999% certain to be wrong.

The other thing you need to know is that you should look elsewhere today. You have enough experience with me to know that I back my shit up, so you can feel free to quote this later if I don't deliver with sufficiently strong reason for saying this. You will

KNOW

that your read on Cerbypuff was a false positive (false negative?), for sure. That's as much as I'm going to say, and only because I refuse to be a smokescreen for scum in games anymore. I've done that way too many times in the past.

Also, FWIW: We're in two different hoods because our flavor counts as two different categories I guess. I very strongly suspect that Ari had a huge laugh with the flavor for us. The people in those hoods should really STFU about them and their composition. It seems likely there is at least one scum in each, so by all means be prudent. What you should

NOT

do is say shit in this main thread which will make it explicitly clear who is in which neighborhood.

Why, you ask? Well ... let's say we rope scum in a neighborhood and then have sound reason to believe the others in the hood are town. It then becomes a huge asset if used properly. It also then forces scum to choose from among bad choices. If I could gift one thought process that Cerbypuff and I share to everyone who plays mafia, it would be the thought process of always maximizing utility any way you can. All you need to understand WHY we operate this way is to look at our MANY strong town performances in this hydra where we got town to 99.99999% victory and for whatever reason fell just short of bringing home the victory. In every case, there was something we could have done that we missed to wring a little more utility or a slightly better EV out of the situation that would have made the difference. NOTHING we say or do is without purpose.

I'm rambling because my pills have kicked in and I'm tired.

~D

@Masthead - That PT is still open. If you seriously want to repair things, I suggest we go make use of it as soon as one of us is dead. Also ... LOL @ you assuming I'm town reading you. The easiest way for you to seem town to us would be to irrationally scum read us. If you think that wasn't the first thing that crossed my mind, I think I'm a little insulted.

[Reasonably Rational]

As for Fluffy? I'm not really sure. Idk what feud's going on between Drixxtreme and anitsam, but I was planning on letting that play out to help me read both slots.

This is the first useful post I've seen for sorting you. In 24-48 hours I expect a follow up and your thoughts.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Also ... I love the name Drixxtreme. I might make an alt account if someone doesn't steal it. It makes me laugh because people always think I'm emotional when I'm just being snarky.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, FWIW: We're in two different hoods because our flavor counts as two different categories I guess. I very strongly suspect that Ari had a huge laugh with the flavor for us. The people in those hoods should really STFU about them and their composition. It seems likely there is at least one scum in each, so by all means be prudent. What you should

NOT

do is say shit in this main thread which will make it explicitly clear who is in which neighborhood.

Why, you ask? Well ... let's say we rope scum in a neighborhood and then have sound reason to believe the others in the hood are town. It then becomes a huge asset if used properly. It also then forces scum to choose from among bad choices. If I could gift one thought process that Cerbypuff and I share to everyone who plays mafia, it would be the thought process of always maximizing utility any way you can.

Yeah ^this is flat-out a scumclaim.

Also ... LOL @ you assuming I'm town reading you.

What's there to assume?

The language you've used makes it pretty damn unambiguous that you're calling me town! Want me to quote it all for you for the whole world to see? You even have it in this very post, I don't even need to go to your prior posting but it's there too!

You're treating me as town when if you were town you'd have no reason to.

But yes the PT is available any time we're not playing. <3

No it's not a scum claim to tell people to use their heads and not be stupid. Furthermore, I always talk to people as if they are town until I'm certain they aren't. It's like a trademark of my play. You can go to any of my games and see me talking to everyone as if I believe they are town. I also very rarely give reads lists. Those things are both done for the same purpose: I see no utility in telling someone I think they're scum until I'm ready. The best example of this is SU1 where we spent weeks pretending that we had a town read on Titus while we made the case against her and followed the trail to one of her partners.

Don't take my trademark style and pretend it's something it's not.

The level to which you are sticking to your "irrational everything is a reason he's scum" meta is starting to feel disingenuous. It's almost as if the only things you are looking for in my posts are opportunities to play into your established meta with me. That's not exactly confidence inspiring. Let your other heads talk to me for a day or so realtime. I need to think and talk to cerb about a couple things RE: you specifically.

If you keep intentionally sticking in your meta rut with me, then we're going to end up 1v1 and you lose every time on that front and if you are indeed town, then we all lose because of it. Like ... it plays out only a couple of ways:

1.) Suppose you manage to get people to lynch us. We flip town and then you get roped next.
1a.) If you're scum, then we traded 1 for 1 and we win. If you're town, it's lose-lose and town is in a heap of shit because they lost you and us (yes, we have a bit of ego and I think we've earned it, and despite your irrationality towards me, you also bring strong value when town so a 1v1 if you are town is worst possible scenario imo).

2.) We get you lynched.
2a.) If you flip town, then we probably get roped next and we flip town. Same Lose-Lose as before. If you flip scum, then we didn't have to trade ourselves for you.

Town!you always loses and harms us significantly if you force a 1v1 today. Scum you always loses and at best get us as a 1-for-1 trade. I see no reason this is a path you should want to pursue, especially with me telling you outright to just STFU and move on for now because there's shit you don't know and you will for certain know we're town when it's time. I really can't make it any clearer than that. At this point, I'm literally going to view further pushing on your part as an outright scum claim. And you should also probably not fuck with me a for a couple days because I'm pissed you pushed me to this amount if disclosure for no fucking reason.

~D

Spoiler: For Masthead only. Seriously you won't learn anything from this. I know you're going to read it anyway. Don't say I didn't warn you.

P.S. - I replaced out of Civ mafia (only my 3rd replace out ever, and only 2nd completely voluntary one. One of them was due to another player wrecking two newbie games and compromising my ability to continue playing) for two reasons:

1.) I was exceptionally drained emotionally from spending like 2.5 months sure that we were endgamed in SU2 only to get to a LYLO where you promised certain things in order to get me to invest something like 70 hours over the final day phase, and you fell vastly short of your promise, which led to

2.) I just really couldn't stand to have to work together with you after #1. You and the modfather know the particular reasons why I took that so personally and so you should fully understand. I tried my best to stick with it because I <3 Nahdia and did not want to replace out on her, and I probably would have stuck with it if you hadn't rolled scum that game.

It's probably best any more of this be saved for later.

[Reasonably Rational]

You have 0 idea on how to read me

We both know this is a lie?

you're lucky today, thank mastina, tomorrow you're dead tho
VOTE: reasonable dude

Ah. Would this be because in the PT I described why to lynch the logical duo first?
Sorry for killing your steam.

I do think DIO is scum tho for what it's worth so your push there

is

good.
It's just my scumread on the logical duo is stronger AND I have more reason to think they are a better lynch today.

Read my previous post. I put a clock on our life because of whatever bug you have up your ass. Time to move on.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

So Trix are for kids has a hate boner for mastina, cool

That's not accurate, and it's shitty of you to say it when you have no personal experience with the relationship in question.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@masthead(which I don't like as a name, but whatever): You do realize the spoilered stuff Drixx posted has absolutely nothing to do with our alignment, and he'd say the same thing no matter what right?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So Trix are for kids has a hate boner for mastina, cool

That's not accurate, and it's shitty of you to say it when you have no personal experience with the relationship in question.

-Cerb

This. There's not hate. There's hurt. It's two very different things.

Also ... Masthead knows that I don't make claims lightly and I certainly don't claim to the point where I explicitly say that there will be absolutely no question that we're town, mechanically. The fact that she's still pushing after that is tantamount to a scum claim to me. At this point, I am moving forward with the assumption that the Masthead hydra has a low power role on the scum team and is willing to try and get us mislynched and try to talk her/their way out of being lynched afterward but is willing to go in order to remove us from the board. There's no other reasonable conclusion at this point.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Point being, if you're going to be upset about having damaged that relationship, then you should probably just be upset about it, or else resolve it in a conversation with him outside of this game.

I'm going to be asking Drixx to leave that whole past interaction in the past, please ignore that stuff and focus on this game.

-Cerb

pedit: Her read is immaterial to me, I'm just letting her know that that particular bit of posting is an accurate reflection of Drixx's legitimate feelings and thoughts about her, as expressed to me in our hydra chats and other discussions outside of and prior to this game, and if it's something she finds "upsetting", then she should do something about it.

[Reasonably Rational]

@masthead(which I don't like as a name, but whatever): You do realize the spoilered stuff Drixx posted has absolutely nothing to do with our alignment, and he'd say the same thing no matter what right?

-Cerb

It's not gonna matter brochacho, it's not going to affect her read as it started from your first post

The problem here is her "read" (if you guys are actually town) is incorrect. This will be confirmed to the game. In the face of that hard claim, pushing forward is absurd and reckless.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

I don't care what you think you saw Masthead. I'm telling you that we are a mechanical mod confirm clear (assuming we don't just get killed off at night first). That's literally all you need to know. I can either back that up or I eat rope, right? A pox on your for forcing my hand in the first 24 fucking hours of the game. At this point there's no upside in being coy.

We're Jar Jar Binks (yes, really). We will be able to trigger a mod confirmation of IC, which is tied to our flavor since Palpatine used Jar Jar as the pawn to allow him to take control. We are easily manipulated which is why we have a negative utility which will mess with roles trying to target us.

Happy now?

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

I don't make claims lightly and I certainly don't claim to the point where I explicitly say that there will be absolutely no question that we're town, mechanically.

Of course you don't!

These are also not things you say exclusively as town and it's a flat-out lie to pretend they are!

You weigh claiming carefully. This I do not deny. But this is something you do as both alignments. You say you will be town mechanically. This is a claim you would make as either alignment and I have good reason to doubt it. You have partially roleclaimed. You have not fullclaimed, and as such it is possible I am mistaken, this I do not deny. But off of everything I have to go on right now.

I have absolutely every reason to believe this is you claiming, but as scum.

You might want to rethink that position in light of my previous post.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Drixby can you remind me what makes you think this isn't a TvT?
pedit: Cowbells you sure you don't want Woodchuck right now?
and of course Gin's order is different, she thinks she can read me but tbh I don't think we've ever been town together in a long long time.
And here I was about to blow up on her.
pedit2: VOTE: Scott
kinda wanna see where this takes me.


Cowbells what do you think of Rat?

I'm not sure it IS a TvT. I'm leaning more towards it being Masthead playing to her meta in how she always irrationally reads us as scum (and has only ever been correct once). It's exactly what I would expect scum!Masthead to do in order to make us think she is town. At first there wasn't enough to think that, but at this point she's done enough cherry picking and selective responding to only things that fit in with her meta with regards to us that it is at least slightly more likely that the slot is scum than town.

Now that the floppy ears are out of the bag, we're going to do our best to leave the game with our best evaluation of each slot today. I doubt we survive the night since scum now know we will be able to be mod confirmed and it would take gigantic balls to leave us alone as mod confirmed town.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

I have a good reason to believe masons don't exist in this game.

Fuckit.

I'll claim.
Sorry Ginngie, Nacho, and my lovelies but this is obvious enough anyway.

We are masons with Sapphire

.

And I flat-out.
Do.
not.
believe.

That Ari gives the town three conftown like that.

Time to start believing. We are indeed IC. If you are actually masons and not just mad scrambling at this point, I'm going to be even more mad at you. Bad enough that you pushed me to out us in the first 24 hours, but then you out a mason pair?

What
the
fuck
?

If you're being honest, then we're in deep shit because a scum team who has to face an IC and a mason pair is going to have significant power. The problem with assuming you're being honest is there's no rational reason for you to make the claim. If you are really town and you really think I would fake claim IC (which would gain me absolutely nothing as scum), then your optimal play is to just make sure people know to lynch us if we don't pop IC. What you do NOT do is fucking out yourself as a mason.

Like ... what the hell is going through your mind?

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Drixby this is the part where you reveal your IC.

Like almost every other time I've seen IC used, it has a condition and cannot be used on day one. If it could, I would have just popped it already and rubbed Masthead's nose all in it like you rub a puppy's nose in their shit when they shit on the carpet.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Well technically none of us are conftown yet. We literally didn't even explore the possibility space if both The lumberjacks and TheBrightestInstrument are being honest in discussions.

My initial thought if I assume that we really have two mod confirmed slots plus a 2 person masonry is that the scum team must be larger than expected (As was the case in Gold Miner $laughter) or multiball, or some kind of absurd power to counter.

I think it is fucking absurd that it's actually possible that FOUR of us who have the ability to be confirmed town are outed in the first 24 hours. What a fucking absurd comedy.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

I have to sleep. My wife is making angry noises. Can we please maybe put a fucking halt on outing ourselves?

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Yo. Haven't had time for this today, but I'll make time tomorrow. Gonna poke Drixx before I go to sleep to make sure he knows that the day has started. Maybe he'll feel up to contributing.

@TWC: something weird almost certainly happened, because I can't imagine anyone shooting random. However, I won't be elaborating on the quote you asked about at this time. I also won't be elaborating on my IC in any way for the moment.

I feel like somebody else asked me something, but I don't remember it. Sorry.

Varlater: TWC got a stick up their assets about our slot, Drixx went insane and decided to claim our IC D1, along with NU in our role, then TWC claimed to be masons with

Sappho

(which hasn't been publicly, explicitly confirmed by Sappho as being true, but I expect them to agree with it regardless) and that they were ccing our NU, then the now virt, used to be rc, slot claimed to also have an IC, and then they used a vig shot on S&R, and the day ended, I assume as a result of that shot.

Those were the highlights for me at least.


Anyways, this has been about 10 sentences longer than planned. Good night everyone.

-Cerb.

Marked down for Strike 1!

[Reasonably Rational]

Fuck I broke the restriction

Mark me down for one Aristo!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, also, one more thing: TWC, if you don't start signing your fucking posts I will camp my vote on you until the end of time, even in the face of proof that you're town.. Seriously. It's already irritating enough figuring out WHO people are talking about without it being difficult to discern who is talking in the first place, especially when there's more than one of you on at a time.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: TWC

This isn't leaving, unless drixx can come up with some very good reason why it should. I fucking loathe hydra play like that. It's the sort of behavior that make people not want to play with hydras, and I'd rather not play with you if you're going to be like that.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Dead serious.

People who don't sign for their hydras when someone else requests that they do so are selfish assholes who should NEVER get what they want. It's fucking EASY to sign. So fucking easy that NOT doing it when it costs you so little, and could help someone else, is incredibly shitty.

I'm going to sleep now.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Because the other head has been. That means theres a clear, discernible difference between the two of you, that is implicit in your posts and their signature or lack thereof, rather than being reliant upon the readers ability to recognize each individuals posting style.

You're also less of an arrogant <insert expletive here> than

mastin

, so there's that too.

-Cerb

That's strike 2

[Reasonably Rational]

Plus, I've never read your posts and thought: "you know I really wish these were signed", because when super short back and forth happen with people saying single sentences, stylistic differences all but fucking disappear.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: TWC

This isn't leaving, unless drixx can come up with some very good reason why it should. I fucking loathe hydra play like that. It's the sort of behavior that make people not want to play with hydras, and I'd rather not play with you if you're going to be like that.

-Cerb

"voting out of annoyance instead of a scum read tends to come from scum"

:3

Fuck off, you know scum!me is perfectly capable of constructing a fucking reason to vote for you if I gave a shit about that. This is a matter of principle. I lack the words to describe just how much your behavior aggravates me.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Because the other head has been. That means theres a clear, discernible difference between the two of you, that is implicit in your posts and their signature or lack thereof, rather than being reliant upon the readers ability to recognize each individuals posting style.

You're also less of an arrogant <insert expletive here> than mastin, so there's that too.

-Cerb

mastina has been talking to you about signing posts lmfao

:3

Dude, we all agree on everything main thread, anything we don't it's a PT matter. You're just being overdramatic.

I know I was talking to masthead ginnhead

I was answering Ali about why I was treating your hydra differently from theirs.

And yes, I can fucking tell the difference between all of you, it's just irritating that you think it's okay to make the other x people in the game have to figure that out, when you could JUST FUCKING SIGN.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: TWC

This isn't leaving, unless drixx can come up with some very good reason why it should. I fucking loathe hydra play like that. It's the sort of behavior that make people not want to play with hydras, and I'd rather not play with you if you're going to be like that.

-Cerb

"voting out of annoyance instead of a scum read tends to come from scum"

:3

Fuck off, you know scum!me is perfectly capable of constructing a fucking reason to vote for you if I gave a shit about that. This is a matter of principle. I lack the words to describe just how much your behavior aggravates me.

-Cerb

okay cerb, you told me in RFB you faked showing emotion in mafia games so people didn't think you were souless lmao, so you getting mad is petty?

Also I'm going to pull a nacho here and say it's really pointless to argue about signing posts. What we need to do is get back to the game and actually discuss it, rather than a few characters.

we can earn producktivity points

Fair point, I'm not REALLY mad, but I do 100% believe in my point and the principle of the matter here, and unfortunately the only fucking thing I can do to try to get you to sign is vote for you.. So, that's what I'm doing. *shrug*

And not going to sleep apparently even though I'm exhausted because I let myself get drawn into a petty, stupid conversation.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

TWC claimed to be masons with Sappho(which hasn't been publicly, explicitly confirmed by Sappho as being true, but I expect them to agree with it regardless)

We are masons with TWC.
Very publicly.
Very explicitly.
Masons.
Confirmed town to each other by the moderator.
As in.
"You know that TWC is aligned with the town."
Green letters.
...Is that clear enough?


Now. I haven't read the thread and won't have time to until maybe late in the day but quite frankly... you need to retreat to the hydra PT and talk to Drixxypoo a whole motherlicking lot because the point where you start raging at a slot for not signing its posts is the point where you should recognize how far gone you are; you're tunneled beyond anything that is reasonable right now.

I'm not tunneled at all. As a matter of fact, I spent the night phase defending the TWC slot against

randomidget

, to some extent.

This has NOTHING to do with my reads.

-Cerb

Dead slots count. This is #3

[Reasonably Rational]

In the other fucking PT that random, myself, and some others are in. The one for animals/nonhuman creatures. Drixxypoo already claimed that we have two pts we're part of.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

To clarify, I didn't explicitly defend them, it was more I told random what I think I said earlier today, that the ONLY way TWC was scum was if Saph was town and they thought they could get a couple mislynches in exchange for their life, but even that was like...quite unlikely. I hadn't ran the numbers yet to see what sort of game state would be required for that play to make sense for scum!TWC.

-Cerb

Pedit: I don't really have one. The fake IC claim is in his range as either alignment. Not informing the game that his shot would end the day is pretty shitty, but dunno if it's scummy. Need to talk to Drixxypoo about relative balance levels required for a scum day vig that steals a lynch from town. I'm not sure if it's stronger or weaker than a straight dayvig, in a smaller game. I'm inclined to say stronger, so then the question becomes how much strength is needed to compensate for an IC, a masonry, and a you-know-what.

[Reasonably Rational]

Suicide bomber is kinda neutral in total utility though. At best, it's a 1 for 1, which town likes, but it's strictly inferior to a vig, since town ALWAYS loses someone, and more often than not loses 2.

Of course, if you're scum, it could be valuable..:p

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

There is some progression on some posts you made in hood that I have 0 understanding of.

I don't how you go from "Cerby tell me what to do the following days." to "I scumread Cerby because of paranoia."

I read that as her(correctly, BTW), assuming that I would give her good advice regardless of my alignment. I want nothing more than for Yume to succeed in her goals and to grow as a player.

I know what is going on with Cerby

And all I have to say on that matter Cerby is

prepare for unforseen consquences

.


As for Paddy and you, yeah I hope you two get cleared that would make my job easier because my plans were to just bomb the everliving shit out of Paddy.

Oh? So what's going on with me?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Do it.
Also, R&R, if you're an IC, please clear yourself now.

no, karen

we're killing cerb's slot if he doesnt do the thing today
we can screw with ruby after

~T

pls break my neck
~T

Okay V
what the fuck is going on right now?

R&R claimed an IC they can't use.
I used an ability that should be able to clear both Paddy and I, but part of the effect is that I do not know exactly what Paddy got and how it is rendered, if that makes any sense.

The modfather should know that IC roles come with triggers or delays or restrictions on popping them. He is, after all, one of the folks who pushed the role in that direction through multiple games (SU and SU Prequel both come to mind).

VOTE: Virtuoso

I'm personally happy with that for the outcome for today, and plus it gets us to where we can do our thing and prevents someone doing something stupid because bad assumptions.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

@Mastin

- Please quote the post and explain exactly how you were certain our slot was scum from a post by Cerb on the first page. I'm setting aside the fact that you expressed the same certainty about at least one other slot and were wrong, as I'm sure you'll have some excuse for why you were really right. It had better be one hell of an explanation since you went so far as to lie and claim masons to try and get us lynched. (You might also explain why you no longer were so sure when we died). Seriously expecting a substantive response to this.

@Yume

- REALLY well played game. It wasn't

strictly

optimal there at the end, since you had fairly strong evidence that RR was town from the test thing you did, but you KNEW that one of {Shiro, RR} was scum, and so with the evidence that you had you should have gone shiro today and then RR tomorrow, to be most optimal. Either way, good job taking charge and not letting people walk all over you. Well done.


@Ari - Who the hell approved this setup? When there are so many conftown and so much protection that we ended up choosing to run a gambit and have ourselves killed and janitored to try and advance wincon, that kinda speaks for itself.

I'm kind of disappointed Raya had to replace out. Was not really any suspicion there and that was the slot that needed to stay alive. Would have been pretty epic to see this come down to LYLO despite the absurdity of town power compared to what we had.

---

We had the following:

1.) 50/50 re-direction on a kill shot on our slot, randomly redirected (which required us to camp the thread for daystart the day we showed up dead; I nearly sent Ari hate mail over how late the day started because one of us had to be here to explain the kill and "come clean" with the IC claim being an attempt to draw fire that we could then re-direct ... would have had to fly by the seat of my pants in explaining why whomever was targeted, but would have been fun. We also were a nexus, but that really had no utility since I always claim neg. utility and had to claim it.

2.) A slot who could kill (auto-janitor until he died) OR roleblock, but not both.

3.) A slot with 1-shot deathproof that expired on day 3.


I'm not sure how that was supposed to stand a chance, but we did our best to make it fun anyway. Hope everyone enjoyed themselves.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Mafia, Dead, and Mod PTs are being released now. Review Thread too.

Any other hoods will not be released until the duration of the "N5" timer runs out. If you would not like it released, please say so.

I already have some requests for that, and thus will not be releasing them all.

I find this objectionable. We weren't asked if we wanted to release the mafia thread or not, for example. If people want to talk shit in private about people, they should grow up and be adults and stand by their shit talk when the game is over instead of be two faced and ask the mod to perpetuate their bullshit. If you won't say it to the person then don't say it at all. Cowards.

I will remember that for the future, and I guess this is our formal goodbye, since Drixxy retired.

I did what?

[Reasonably Rational]

Not planning on quitting playing any time soon. Perhaps Cerb said something. I won't speak for him on that front though.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Drixx, I see what you're saying. I had originally wanted to have Cannibal and RB work at the same time, and had Rad Rat as not expiring but still 1-shot, but that was deemed too much power.

Check out the review thread if you like!

Umm... anyone who would call this setup balanced lacks the ability to reason.

Town Power:

• Deflector
  
• Jailkeep who can kill with only 25% of also dying
  
• Inventor (Where are the inventions listed?)
  
• 1-shot Masonizer (Hard cop check plus potentially 2 hard conftown)
  
• Delayed Tracker
  
• Voyeur/Motion Detector on alternating nights
  
• Unlucky Global Post Restrictor (neg utility but mostly just annoying and not actually harmful)
  
• 1-shot Doublevoter + 1-shot dayvig
  
• Even-night Wandering Friendly Child/IC (brings minimum conftown up to 3)
  
• 1-shot choice of: Doc/rolecop/tracker

Scum Power:

• Nexus (functionally investigate proof? Had to claim it early or risk later info condemning). 50% kill shot re-direction.
  
• Cannibal (janitor) Roleblocker (but could not do both) - The only counter to the protection town had.
  
• 1-shot deathproof which expired day 3 (Should have expired at M/LYLO since the fear was autowin scenario).

If I was somehow standing over one end of a see-saw (Teeter totter) and you placed the scum powers on the other end, I wouldn't even feel it when my end came up. Put the town's power pile there and I would lose my manhood. This is somehow worse than WDPT, which was two separate setups mashed together with no balance work done.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

@Mastin - Please quote the post and explain exactly how you were certain our slot was scum from a post by Cerb on the first page. I'm setting aside the fact that you expressed the same certainty about at least one other slot and were wrong, as I'm sure you'll have some excuse for why you were really right. It had better be one hell of an explanation since you went so far as to lie and claim masons to try and get us lynched. (You might also explain why you no longer were so sure when we died). Seriously expecting a substantive response to this.

If it helps I was lying about lying about not being sure that you were scum when I did.

I just wanted you to vote with me. I super agree that you asking how strongly I believe in my read was a scumclaim.

Yeah the thing is ... Cerb asked you that, and he would ask you that regardless of alignment. So viewing that as a scum tell then just becomes a matter of probability and you would be wrong way more than right, over a large sample size. Of course,

YOU

would actually

realize

that pretty quickly I think.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Subject: Cutsie UPick: Dead PT

Mastin lied about being fucking conftown to try to force through our lynch on D1. Wtf is that?

Because I wasn't lying! I was just HALF-lying. In that at the time I knew TWC wasn't masons (obv) but I knew SAPPHO were masons. Because I knew Sappho were masons, I knew that it was unlikely for there to be masons + Innocent Child. I mislead, but I didn't really lie.

0.) You seem to be intentionally ignoring the very direct single thing I asked of you.
1.) You couldn't know Sappho were masons on day one. You could only know the claim. Belief is not the same as knowledge.
2.) No you were completely lying. You were not a mason. You did not have knowledge that Sappho were masons either. See #1. If I have to explain to you the difference between belief and knowledge...
3.) There was in fact an IC who could either confirm themselves to random people on even nights or simply just claim it and have it confirmed in thread. Not sure why that player wouldn't simply claim it but whatever. The point is that you're wrong in every thing you said in post #1753. You didn't

KNOW

Sappho were masons (and they weren't even masons at that point), and your speculation that there would be no IC was wrong.
4.) Instead of making a bunch of posts and putting your shoulder at risk (from so much patting your own back), perhaps you might consider answering my question? You

claim

frequently to be this benevolent teacher who wants to help people, and then you ignore questions from people seeking help and make snide comments to and with your clique in site chat about those people. Wanna try being less of a hypocrite for sec?

Scum are always salty when mastina does her gambits

For real. There couldn't actually be some reasonable critique or questioning of the goddess mastina, amirite?

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

For real. There couldn't actually be some reasonable critique or questioning of the goddess mastina, amirite?

Yes.

Must be nice to be in the clique where Mastin doesn't attack you all the time ever.

and your speculation that there would be no IC was wrong.

THERE WASN'T AN IC SO HOW IS THAT WRONG LMFAO

When I originally read the review topic, the final role info for Randomidget did not (in my memory) have a

strikethrough

on the part where they could just claim it publicly and be confirmed.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

I don't have a GREAT grasp on how to make winning plans in that they are always, 100% of the time, with a crucial flaw that keeps them from being as good as I wanted.

I have a gut response typed to this. I am going to go use the washroom and enjoy a nice long shower and come back. It is deeply mean spirited (at the very least) for you to throw that at us. I'm going to just go chill for a bit and come back and see if there's some misunderstanding here, but I don't think there is.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

When I originally read the review topic, the final role info for Randomidget did not (in my memory) have a strikethrough on the part where they could just claim it publicly and be confirmed.

viewtopic.php?p=9507031#p9507031

That looks like a strike through >_>

So no, no fucking IC.

Thus the parenthetical part of my sentence where I said "in my memory". I understand that complex sentences can be difficult to parse, even for native English speakers and even for very well educated English speakers. I should have made it much more clear that it was a fault of my memory which made me believe that Randomidget could also just pop IC.

Must be nice to be in the clique where Mastin doesn't attack you all the time ever.

maybe if you learned to say her fucking name correctly?

Seriously is it that fucking hard to respect a person's name?

Back off there. I type fast. You can feel free to read through my post history if you want. I use the feminine to refer to mastina all the time. You overreacting to my typing fast and missing a letter on a name by mistake and jumping down my throat isn't cool.

I would go so far as to say that behaving in that way is why an awful lot of people label that kind of behavior in a negative way and attach labels to the people who do it frequently. I don't think we need that shit on this site which is dedicated to playing a fucking game and having fun.

[Reasonably Rational]

I don't have a GREAT grasp on how to make winning plans in that they are always, 100% of the time, with a crucial flaw that keeps them from being as good as I wanted.

I have a gut response typed to this. I am going to go use the washroom and enjoy a nice long shower and come back. It is deeply mean spirited (at the very least) for you to throw that at us. I'm going to just go chill for a bit and come back and see if there's some misunderstanding here, but I don't think there is.

~D

Just making sure that Mastina sees this. Be back later.

Love with milk and warm chocolate chip cookies,
~D

[Reasonably Rational]

I feel compelled to point out that the first part of #1798 is not at all snarky. I spent my undergrad years as a writing tutor and many of the years since teaching Composition and Rhetoric. There's nothing intended there other than an apology from me for not being clear.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

It was some random thing I said on like the 2nd page of the game.

You say random thing, I say condemning thing.

Extrapolating something from nothing is just what I

do

. You know this so it shouldn't be a surprise I did so to you.

I did give you legit a lot of leeway once you claimed IC because I didn't think you would be suicidal enough to claim a role you couldn't prove since that is a very, very, VERY UnReasonable-Rational thing to do. I even noted many, many times what would happen for both gamesets, you as town and you as scum. With your nightkill, the you-as-town was even the one more likely, and even if it wasn't I was going to work under the assumption it was in order to be safe.

Now does this mean that when I extrapolate something from nothing it's going to be accurate? Fuck no I get it wrong all the time and I did so multiple times this game, it's proven in my reads/stances on other players this game just as much as the right ones are. But for better or worse, extrapolating something from nothing is one of the main ways I scumhunt.

I just ~see~ things.
My explanation for those things, often bullshit, but I see them and do my best to work with what I saw.

Post #1799. Please and thank you.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

@mastina - Come on now. You said you genuinely wanted to repair the damage from SU2. We were always friends before that, and if you are being honest, it seems awfully weird that you keep ignoring me. Post #1799 is the most recent time I quoted what you said. I'm totally open minded on that; just tell me what the intention was there.

Please never play mafia with mastina if it means all you wanna do is write nasty posts because no one wants to see that.

Before SU2, we never had any real issues. We approach things differently, but that has tended to work for the good since the vast majority of the time we've both been town together. I am not certain, but I suspect you probably know my issue with what happened in SU2 and the reasons why I found it particularly personal and hurtful.

I'm a fixer personality. If there's an issue, I'm a get it out in the open, deal with it, make up and spit shake and move on type. It is literally true that 99.99% of conflicts I am involved in progress as follows:

1.) Initially I go quiet and think about it. I try to reason out what's the problem, underlying factors, etc...
2.) I reach out to take care of it.
3.) A few months later I

might

remember there was a problem, but usually have a hard time giving much, if any, specific detail.
4.) A few months after that I won't even remember at all unless prompted, and even then I sometimes literally don't recall.

I don't understand the idea of holding a grudge when I could just take responsibility when I'm wrong, and use the experience to build a stronger friendship. Perhaps that's an artifact of where and when I grew up (Rural Maine back before stores could be open on Sunday in most of the country). Friendship means you take the occasional bad lemons and make lemonaide and sometimes you have to have a knock down fight and throw a few punches, but afterward you come out stronger friends for it, and that black eye is a badge of pride.

I know that I come across very dry and much more harsh in text only communication than I intend to be like 99% of the time (see earlier post where I realized that something I posted COULD be read as if it were dripping with condescension and sarcasm and I literally didn't at all mean it that way and felt the need to post so you would know!). It is, unfortunately I think, an old dog new tricks thing. I have never been able to express typing the way I do talking and in person. Many and many friends who have known me in both contexts have said something along the lines of "Drixx ... you are a great and funny and warm engaging guy in person, and even talking on {insert VOIP medium here}, but in text you're a fucking dick."

So far nobody has ever been able to offer any useful advice for fixing that.

As Drixx said in his entry to this game, his like for yume outweighed his distaste for mastina. Can't let people you dislike keep you from things you enjoy.

More accurate to say that the current unresolved tension was outweighed. Distaste is a place we haven't reached yet. That takes an act of the will. One has to know for certain that the thing they are saying or doing will hurt and do so with that intent before we get there. I don't believe anyone on the internet has managed that yet, as evidenced by the fact that I know literally nobody online whom I would not talk with if they said hi to me via some means of communication.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Mastin: you still haven't answered Drixxs question, which you should probbaly do if you have any desire to have any sort of cordial conversation with him in the future(just a warning).

I mean that's his decision because if he thinks I'm going to have bias and call you scum no matter what, that's on him and we can't actually talk on a level playing field?

I had a scumread.
That scumread was correct.
He holds issue with the scumread.
But it was right.

He can cry right-for-the-wrong-reasons all he likes. I give credence to that by saying that I tend to bullshit with my reasoning, this is a known fact about me and I do it towards every player. But if he assumes it is something specific to him...I can't really change his stance there, now, can I? This is how I treat all players. I don't discriminate. If he assumes that I was making up a scumread because it was him, I can't really change his stance there, now, can I?

I've explained my methods before, I've explained how I operate, how it's a weird combination of both a methodical process and yet also whimsy, method to the madness, madness to the method. How I see things and try to build them up even if I don't fully understand them. How I will latch onto things, right or wrong. Sometimes I get things right, other times I get them wrong. As per what you'd expect in any game, I got some right and some wrong.

I've acknowledged multiple times things I got wrong. Chiefly Alisae, though I also contributed to the RadiantCowbells/Virtuoso debacle. And in spite of me making an epic case against Radical Rat multiple times in the PT, ultimately I'd have lynched Shiro before him so in that regard I read Shiro wrong and I wasn't too pleased with gerryoat either (and figured it wasn't my job to sort that anyway). I got a BUNDLELOAD of role stuff wrong. Assuming scum had a busdriver, for instance. Assuming I could game Varsoon's power when as per word of Aristophanes I couldn't. The like there.

But I'm not going to apologize for things I got right. Pushing you as scum. Being adamant Sappho was town. Correctly calling your role and even how N1 played out. And so on and so forth. I have the right to be wrong and I also have the right to be right. Can you say you honestly disagree? That I don't have the right to be right, or that I don't have the right to be wrong? Because I simply fundamentally don't understand how anyone could hold that viewpoint.

I get some things right, I get some things wrong. Calling me a liar is saying I can't have that.

I appreciate the "I was right about you but wrong about X, Y and Zed" explanation. That's reasonable. The problem, as I see it, is that you seem to default to I and/or us are scum

every game

for awhile now. Enough to be notable (this could be a cognitive bias on my part; freely admitting this up front. Current tension could be highlighting something as an aberration when it's not). Perhaps there's something subconscious at play? The problem it creates is that you really don't explain your scum reads generally. You DO; however, despite just now openly admitting being right essentially about as often as random chance this game, play as if those reads are ironclad truth. You cannot be reasoned with and any evidence contrary gets hand waved away.

That makes it exceptionally difficult to work with you (when we're both town) and to properly read you (when we're town and you are not). When the only reason you have is instinct, and your instinct isn't right significantly higher than 50% of the time, I'm not sure playing as if it were an ironclad mechanical guilty is helpful. To you or to the people who have to try and reason with you.

The dialogue is useful though.

Still waiting for a response to #1799.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

First of all, because I didn't multi-quote a whole bunch of Mastina walls: Thank you for being so thorough. I'm going to try and bring this to a close, but we have a PT we can talk in more if you want to take the gloves off and just vent and work out a way to go back to being something like besties and move forward better than ever. I meant it when I asked you to explain to me which post of Cerb's made you so certain, and why. Also ... please read my posts in monotone or something because for real I'm way less hostile than you're receiving. Text doesn't carry tone and if we were talking on discord or something, I think you'd have a totally different feeling for the convo.

As far as me and scum reading me goes, it

feels

like ever since SMITE, you have always just scum read me as the default setting. That's fine. You're entitled to read people however you like. The "problem", inasmuch as there can be said to be one, is that no amount of contrary evidence or actions or reasoning get you to reevaluate. So while I've had this really bizarre streak of being scum for almost all of my games this year, the overall reality over time is going to be that you see me as town at least twice as often as seeing me as scum.

And it's those future situations which led me to ask for help. Like: when I'm town and I absolutely need to be free of you trying to mislynch me ... I haven't got the foggiest idea how to do that.

I don't have a GREAT grasp on how to make winning plans in that they are always, 100% of the time, with a crucial flaw that keeps them from being as good as I wanted.

It is deeply mean spirited (at the very least) for you to throw that at us.

?
How is acknowledging one of the things I do in games for better or for worse mean-spirited?
It is both acknowledging one of my strengths (I am good at coordinating things and making the most of what I've been given), while also one of my greatest weaknesses (I am working off of imperfect knowledge, I'm not omniscient, so what I coordinate, what I plan, what I make, will always have at least one flaw which prevents it from being the success I envisioned).

I mean, do you think it's an inaccurate statement?
Do you think that I don't "do" winning plans? Because it's pretty self-evident I attempt them all the time. They don't often

work

(at least not as intended), but it's pretty unambiguously fact that I do them all the same? I put into motion plans once I have been given something to work with. This is something I do, and have done in countless games. If you agree that I do them, then what's there to be offended by?

And assuming you agree I do them...
Do you think that when I do winning plans, they aren't not-great? As in. Do you think that my plans actually work as intended? Of course they don't. So I don't see the issue there either. I'm stating the truth. I make plans. I always make plans. Yet the plans are never as good as I was hoping they'd be. That's why I have others fact-check them. Hydra partners, but also others. I trust you regardless of your alignment to make reasonable (ha) plans because you are a player and even moreso a hydra who makes great plans.

You're better at making plans than I am. I've said that before. I meant it then and I still mean it now. So I don't see what the issue is. If I'm saying, "I'm good, but not great; you're better than me", what's the issue? It's calling you great, or even better than great. (What's better than great? I don't even have a word for it but if there's any player who mechanics/role-wise would be deserving of that it'd be you.) It's a complement to respecting your abilities. I respect your plans. I also respect your play. I'm not as good as you are. What in that is insulting to you? What in calling you better than me is an insult to you? I don't get it.

Thank you very very much for answering. When I read that, I assumed you were talking about how you are good at making plans that win the game (which is very true, and I've sung your praises for your great moments in games we played together) and then decided to say what you were NOT good at is (paraphrasing for how I understood its meaning) "making GREAT plans that somehow always fail for some reason" which is the millstone hanging round our necks until we actually see one through to a win.

Like there was SU where we legitimately kicked ass and had a plan that resulted in town winning 100% of the time. It also called for killing the miller before LYLO (which even said miller agreed was the right play before and then in postgame). After nailing two scum from one tiny slip, we cleared the most scum read player (who had amazing utility) pretty ironclad logically, but we wanted to pressure them and test it, so our vote was on them, and that miller I mentioned before? Yeah ... he hammered to avoid his scheduled death that day. So our vote being inappropriately placed unraveled a guaranteed win for town into a scum win. That was the first time.

Then there was SD2 where scum literally could have won on day 1, and despite that we came within a single action being taken of pulling out a town win. (And a certain mod refusing to clarify that players could have abilities from the store that could possibly be more or less powerful than the store abilities, which made a town player look like they had lied and the mod post condemned them). That was the second.

And it goes on. So yeah ... I totally read that as a comparison. You make good plans that win games. We make great plans that are fatally flawed by some mistake in logic or mistake in play and can't seal the deal.

okay one thing that confuses me tho, is why Drixx keeps posting in the hydra after the game ended?

I use a different browser so as not to ever hydra slip and I just didn't load into here with my main account. I sign my posts though.

Cerb you aren't nearly as good as you think you are.

Is anyone? You're quite good, in my experience, but then there was that stretch of newbie games we played together and you scum read me in like ... all of them, and I was scum in like one of them. Whatever you're using to read me individually seems broken. I've never met a player who couldn't improve, and I don't believe I've met any who need more improvement than me.

The problem is Cerberus & Drixx looking for the problem (them getting scumread) externally rather than internally.

The first thing I asked post-game was what got our slot scum read and why. It being a post by one of us makes us the proximate cause.

That said: Cerb isn't lying when he says that he would always question you about how strong your read is. Players he knows lie and gambit as town are going to get that kind of question from him and I'm pretty sure regardless of alignment. I didn't get to the game until it was several pages in, but I found it equally as irritating to try and figure out who was being spoken about in posts. I can see how on day one when there's not a lot to go on, a post like that can look like making an excuse not to participate, but I'm almost 100% certain the same observation and complaint would have come out of Cerb regardless of what our role card said. That was a legitimately irritating thing, especially early on when different people were using different nicknames.

So yeah, I see having a "hrm... gonna watch that slot, that could be SAI" but I'm not sure it merits a death tunnel?

Drixx attempting to become confirmed town through setup means is somewhat of a tired trope since Civilization Mafia so I saw it coming a mile away.

ftr this is a good point @Drixx, the gambit was fine but I think would have worked better with less ppl who had been in Civ? idunno.

Well in Civ there was like a mechanical reason to run with that gambit.

In this game, it was just on the spur of the moment narrative. If I could do anything over again I wouldn't have hammered on day two and done as much as I could to better position the team to take advantage of it seeming like we were what we claimed because of the janitoring. FWIW: I chose to hammer on the thought that it would back up the play we would have had to make if the shot had re-directed off from us. I would have had to explain why we thought whomever died was scum with like no real preparation and the mentality of being willing to hammer a "scum read" or gambit to draw fire that we could redirect to someone we read as scummy seemed consistent with one another.

You're not understanding what I'm saying.

Just because you're not consciously aware that you're playing with a scum mindset, doesn't mean that you aren't, doesn't mean that you won't have tells to pick up on.

You are not a perfect enough liar to be literally indistinguishable. I know that I certainly am not.

He knows that. I promise he does even if his posts make you think he doesn't. He just gets frustrated when people miss the objectively rationally scummy stuff and pop a scum read on him for something that is NAI for him.

Sure. The problem though is my posting is scummy to some extent all of the time. :p
And sure, I don't necessarily possess the self awareness to see the scum in my posts, but enough people who know me and my speech and thought patterns far better than you or mastina also fail to see anything out of the ordinary in those posts, so....

Well, I'd say I'm probably better at mafia in general than the vast majority of those people, regardless of my meta knowledge on you.

Probably so. But Cerb still will express frustration with something he feels is stupid and a waste of time 100 times out of 100. So then the question is ... was it just that he made a post complaining, or some specific phrasing in that post?

I rarely get a peek inside how you approach mafia... just see the output and not the thinking behind it, so any insight is greatly appreciated.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

This game made me want to stay retired.

It was hella townsided (and even more so when people with real life relationships got handed the strongest town stuff). It was also fun.

All the post-game convo is like 90% trying to figure out where we screwed up and how to be less bad, and 10% me trying to out wallpost Mastina.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Cerb will probably STOP complaining about setups after our series of WORM games get inevitably shat on because ... balance is hard. REALLY hard.

[Reasonably Rational]

There is a scale.
Varsoon Crazy | - - - - - - - | - - - - - - - | Normalcy/Mountainous
It's important to find out where you fit on said scale.
I know I am about where Varsoon is (atleast I would like to think so (Subtext: PRE-IN TO MY PERSONA 5 LARGE THEME))
Some people don't like that stuff and just like simple stuff.

Consider me pre-in. With Cerb in hydra if he agrees and you are allowing hydras. Mostly because after some delays we are FINALLY moving out west imminently and if I don't play in hydra I would end up having to take like a 10 day V/LA which wouldn't be fair to any game.

[Reasonably Rational]

The funny thing is I totally talked about you Varsoon. Silly modfather.