Mini 507: Big Brother Mafia - Game Over

[mneme]

/confirm

Hey, all!

[mneme]

hey, vr. 'sall good.

[mneme]

Me! Me! Ok, maybe not.

[mneme]

Bleh. I've been remis -- but then, so have other people.

Nom: trabony

I'll save a second nom for now.

[mneme]

Vel: Is any action truly random?

[mneme]

VRK: I think my reasons are pretty obvious in the thread -- you're a smart mafia player, you can figure them out.

[mneme]

The nominations will only help in deciding who the HoH picks as the two people up for elimination at the end of Day 1.

Indeed. The nominations are very important (because they help voting records alliance and may eventually point the way to scum, just as votes can), but they are merely advisory.

trabony: He doesn't give a reason for nominating you, but if you look back you actually used the term vote, which if pablito hadn't decided not to count votes until after the nominations you'd be stuck with a vote for ChaosOmega. The second point is that your vote on Chaos is an OMGUS vote. Third, post 118 is your 5th total post of the game, including your /confirm post.

Indeed. Actually, your last one (the lurking thing) wasn't on my radar, since this game has a weird posting pattern anyway, especially given the unconventional Day 0. In general, I thought it was pretty obvious, and given a plethora of reasons for voting someone, I think the fact of a vote is actually more significant than the stated reason; if people -need- a reason because they can't see one on their own, it might be useful, but I like to think that when things are obvious enough, it's not really necessary.

[mneme]

Not sure I buy the Flare nomination; seems to come out of nowhere aside from personal trash-talking.

Still -- I'll wait for voting to see what the defenses look like.

[mneme]

Hmm. So far, we have:

Trabony: "I'm not going to defend myself" (more or less)
Flare: Woo! {...}.

Can't we just vote to lynch them both?

More seriously, neither is giving us much to work with, either in terms of evaluating them as scum/not scum nor even any idea of whether they'll be useful members of the town (ok, we get the impression they won't be).

All things considered, if nothing changes, I'll vote for Flare, for general uselessness, but I'd rather have more to work with.

[mneme]

viewtopic.php?t=6287&start=150#780417

Before I defend myself I want to know how I'm hurting things, as far as I'm concerned I've only been hurting myself so far in this game.

IOW, AFAICT "I'm not going to defend myself unless someone makes a more substantial attack."

[mneme]

Shame on DOS for choosing the two least liked players as his nomination. We already know that they are unliked - how is nomming them going to generate discussion? This is the equivalent of a bandwagon vote.

Wow. Only one post, and yet the scum-o-meter is tingling here.

Scruffs, can you present anything aside from WIFOM "I am scummy, therefore I am town" reasoning? Because this one post is scummier than all of Trabony's combined.

Now, regarding your claim about DOS's choices, of -course- he should nom the two least-liked players. You don't generate useful discussion by nomming people against the town wishes; you generate useful discussion by making the town wishes/bandwagons have an effect on who gets lynched, which in turn makes the "free play" nominating period meaningful. See Ultimatum Mafia (where this strategy was used to successfully eliminate one of the two mafia, but the game was then lost by a combination of cowboy play and the mafia turning the town away from this tactic).

[mneme]

Agreed that ryan's slip means he should be up on the block tomorrow. Dragons of Summer on principle, as well, baring other good choices (with secret ballots deciding the first HoH, there's a good chance that our first HoH is scum, as the scum have a slight edge in their people getting the Headship first day). That said, neither is up for the vote today.

Of the two, I have to admit that distad has been trying to participate in the game and scumhunt. Skruffs, on the other hand, is spouting a combination of obvious stuff and bunk, with no division between them.

Vote: Skruffs

[quote=Skruffs]
Mneme - I disagree. Dos should have, if he wanted to stimulate conversation, picked people that other people had already started backing.
[/quote]

Appears to miss the point that this is still mafia. People don't back other people; they attack them, and 3/4 of the town's interest is toward finding any particular scum despite the town being 1/2 mafia, since the scum aren't on the same side. It also appears to miss the fact that there were no large groups when DoS had to pick targets; instead, there were tiny bandwagons amid a lot of nothing.

Moreover, it also misses the fact that the final debate at the end of each day isn't all that important, and isn't where most of the debate in this game should be. Far, far more important should be the debate that decides who the two candidates are in the first place, which in an ideal game should result in two scum up on the debating square. And the decision of who those two people are is likely to be far more accurate if, in the end, it derives from the town consensus than if it's essentially random.

[mneme]

This is false. "Floater" is an alignment, not a role.

It's both. Powers, if they exist in this game, aren't role-based, instead being passed from hand to hand until they're used.

This may be semantics, though.

Mneme -
First Irrevocable vote cast, right?
K. I hope you feel you can win against Ryan, if I go out. Call that OMGUSsy if you like. ^.^

Don't see how you can say that; you don't get a nomination if you're dead.
(you get to choose the HoH when you die; you don't get anything more).

Interestingly enough, you were attacking my replacement back when it was trabony and Flare. You 'didn't buy' Flare's nomination - why not?

Was contrary to the (minimal) voting record.
Was apparently based on an OMGUS.
Was (later) claimed to be based on lurking/inactiivty -- but Flare's inactivity was thorough enough to not be able to draw much on it, and there were others who were lurking more and more scummily.

I'm just curious because you seem to be anti-Trabony and ambivalent to flare since when both of them were equivalently lurking.

Um...no. Re-read post 205 again; it was a notice of intent to vote Flare, not Trabony.

This changed with replacement, and your postings and (to a lesser extent) distad's swung things over the edge.

Did you put a lot of thought into it before you put down the first vote? Did you ask town what the consensus was?

Yes. No, consensus is determined by votes. If the town disagrees with me, they've outvote me (but frankly, given the record, I doubt it). (in fact, voting because you expect other people to vote that way is somewhat scummy. You should vote whoever -you- think is scum or needs to die)

This is very different from the HoH's decision, which is an irrevocable decision for the entire town. Voting isn't and shouldn't be by consensus; consensus is, on the contrary, determined by the result of voting.

Because it... to me, at least, seems like you were kind of rash. Especially what with me just pointing out that Ryan just claimed scum.

Sorry, but no. Pointing out an obvious tell three posts after it's made doesn't make you town.

I'd really like it if you could list out where you think Distad ahs been contributing and where I haven't. It's not hat I think that Distad hasn't been posting - I'm just curious where this bias you have came from.

Nearly all your posts have been filled with a vibe that feels off to me, plus the things I've pointed out here. By contrast, Distad's seemed fairly straight.

mneme, who is tryign to imply that scum will try and help town find other scum. That's not a sure thing, or even a maybe thing at all, unless one scum group is wounded and the other isn't.

Help town? Scum will try to find opposing scum because it's in their own best interest.

Moreover, if they're any good, they'll direct attacks at their own comrades as well if warranted. The biggest tell most experienced scum will often give is not interacting with their partners at all, and -mild- favortism to lynching someone who isn't a partner vs lynching someone who is--but if people mostly aren't interacting with one another much at all, it's hard to see even those tells (or the "buddy" tell where scum give one another away in their interaction, which is why some experienced scum avoid interacting with buddies).

Anyway, you should probably worry less about who you want to nominate, and more who you want to trust as Head of Household, depending on how the voting goes.

[mneme]

Scruffs: I'd keep my options open, modulo discussion tomorrow (because as I mentioned, the ability to influence the nominations is what drives town discussion in the pre-nomination period, and town discussion in the pre-nomination period is a primary location for scumtells), but if I had to nominate without a discussion period (hypothetically), I'd nom the two people I've pointed out as needing discussion -- ryan (claimed scum) and Dragons of Summer (some odd nominating, and as first HoH, better than even chance of being scum).

The reason, btw, that I think there's a good chance of the 1st HoH being scum is that while scum have a good reason to look within the 3/4 of the game that isn't with their group for the 1/3 of that which is scum (as their best competition), they have almost -no- reason to vote for a non-scum as HoH (except this one). So while it's entirely possible that our first HoH isn't scum, there's at least one reason that he is.

[mneme]

Welcome to the replacements!

Scruffs, I'm not going to go over why I'm voting you again, nor why "nominate the people with the most nominations" is an important strategy again, nor why "the first HoH is likely to be scum" isn't incompatable with "the HoH should typically listen to the will of the town in his or her nominations for elimination". These are all pretty obvious points of Mafia (and particularly, mafiascum) theory, central to how you catch scum even when everyone is playing well (when people are playing badly, well, things get simpler. But as we all know, townies make mistakes too, if often different ones). And anyway, these points were discussed at length in Ultimatum Mafia, this game's predecessor.

[mneme]

As promised:

Nom: Ryan, DoS

Ryan for his craptastic play yesterday (and slip); DoS for reasoning yesterday, plus a bit of a hunch.

Re wagons:

I told y'all that Distad was (probably, at the time) town. OTOH, the wagon on scruffs was pretty craptastic, so I don't blame necessarily Chaos for going with the Scruffs wagon.

That said...yes, proving a buddy relationship would be a -huge- advantage to the town, as it would knock two scum out in the open.

[mneme]

I told y'all that Distad was (probably, at the time) town

.

What does this prove? The only thing I can think of is you're thinking we should find you innocent because you "probably thought at the time he was town" that is craplogic at it's
[/quote]
Uh-huh.You said it; I didn't. But I think I was the only one on the Scruffs wagon who actually had posted reasoning. Supporting a townie for in-thread reasons is pro-town.

You might get some of that too, except that you 1. didn't post reasoning, and 2. are still really scummy.

What's most interesting, though, is that this contradicts:

Actually distad was a townie, so people on his wagon should be looked at, don't ya think?

Not to mention your comment on chaos below.

confirm Nom: ryan

highest and you're not blaming Chaos for hammering a townie? Are you screaming that you're scum or is it just me?

No, I'm not supporting craplogic like "Chaos, as last voter, voted the townie like 4 other people, rather than the guy of unknown alignment the other four people voted, so we're going to blame him for the lynch rather than DoS (who nominated a townie) and the other four people who voted for distad". Why do you ask?

[mneme]

ryan: you don't seem to understand what a hammer is. I'd feel worse about that if I thought you were town, but I don't.

Hint: it's not "the person who makes the deciding vote."

The quoting was messed up, but clear enough given the closequote. Should be:

I told y'all that Distad was (probably, at the time) town

.

What does this prove? The only thing I can think of is you're thinking we should find you innocent because you "probably thought at the time he was town" that is craplogic at it's

[mneme]

DoS: Call it OMGUS? It -is- OMGUS. Can you point to any posts yesterday that indicated you were most suspicious of me? Any before I fingered you for nomination today?

Ryan: I'll explain it to you slowly.

A "hammer" is the vote that turns a bandwagon into a lynch.

The -reason- the person who drops a hammer is treated with suspicion, typically, is because they are the one who turned a bandwagon into a kill -- until they voted, the bandwagon could turn on anybody else in the town. As such, there's a chance that rather than being a townie looking to find out who the "right" person to lynch is, they're a scum who wanted to finish the lynch while it was on the right person (ie, someone who wasn't their buddy). Effectively, each vote for someone has a higher weight toward that person's lynch, because each is producing a greater increase in the probability/ease of that person being lynched, so the hammer has the highest weight, and therefore is due the most suspicion (all things being equal). An early hammer is even worse, as it demonstrably hurts the town unless it hits scum (and even then, you're often better off with a bit more discussion before lynching scum rather than a bit less).

In this game, however, bandwagons cannot turn (no unvotes), and everyone is required to vote for one of the two candidates. In the end, everyone is going to vote for one of two people, and -has- to choose one of the two people. An "early hammer" is possible -- if someone places the majority vote on a nominee long before the deadline, it cuts off discussion early (though in fact, the best time for discussion is pre-nomination, ie the time we're in now). But once you get near to the deadline and people start dropping votes down, there's no real difference between the first vote and the majority vote; waiting on your "hammer" vote isn't going to make the bandwagon shrink, so if discussion is basically done and you know who you're going to vote for, you vote. (if anything, its votes -past- the majority one on the winner that are suspect, particularly if they turn out to be scum, since scumbuddies might very well hold off in a tough election to see which way things will swing before deciding whether to pile on their buddy or save her). Completely different dynamic, and votes have a completely different weight.

Now, one can reasonably complain that a player didn't seem to -care- who they lynched (or cared too much). But that's as true for the first vote as the last, since people (who weren't DoS) were making a binary decision, not the complicated N-way timing-dependant decision more typical in a more traditional game.

Basically, if you're going to use terminology from more traditional games in this game, you're going to have to understand what it means and why it's important, because this manifestly -isn't- a normal mafia game, and must be taken on its own merits.

[mneme]

DoS was my default for today, but he hasn't done much (aside from the HoH nom and the OMGUS) to push my suspision, while others have, so I'll background that for now(plus I haven't had any traction there).

unnom DoS
Nom: Chaos Omega

Chaos is a lurker, OMGUSed ryan, changed his mind on trabony/Scruffs, and is linked to distad (which is itself interesting).

Plus, IMO, Chaos/Ryan makes for a much more interesting debate than me/ryan. We've already -had- that debate.

[mneme]

Well, duh. This is a special case of "why would I vote for myself?"

But the reasons are still sound.

[mneme]

Also, ryan? You've got some ground to stand on, given where your votes are.

(both people voting for you; both the two strongest bandwagons that aren't yours).

[mneme]

Sorry for making you wait, but I was away from Friday through monday (I seem to have a habit of being nominated just as I go on vacation; at least it was less disasterous this time than in the last one).

As I said in pre-debate, I think Ryan is scum because of his slip yesterday, because of his attempt to make heavy use of craplogic today (on multiple occasions; the hammer business as well as self-contradition in debate with me), and his tendency toward OMGUS voting. He's scum, and needs to leave NOW.

As far as I can tell, the only charges against me are that 1. people not liking my DoS nomination (nevertheless, my reasoning is, I think, sound). 2. my bandwagoning late today (um, yes? This is still mafia, and we still do try to vote people we think are likely to be scum that have bandwagons in preference to people we think are likely to be scum that don't, right?). The idea that I was trying to "get myself off the chopping block" by nomming Chaos was rather silly; it was pretty clear who had the advantage of a me/ryan debate, but -I- would rather have a choice between two people I think are scummy than just one person I think is scummy (as I said at the time). Basically, advisory nomination toward the end of the nomination period is deadline voting with slightly lower stakes -- and I'd prefer to play it that way. (the fact that I got singled out for this despite ryan and Chaos both -also- playing this way is fascinating; perhaps because I was clear about what I was doing rather than trying to disguise my intentions?)

[mneme]

Post 462, paragraph 3 looks like a load of crap to me.

You can't just call something craplogic and hope people will buy it. Labeling != logic, ryan.

Please, explain what you think is bad logic in that paragraph? Certainly, I'd like to know.

[mneme]

Eh. Dull debate, but it's the only game in town.

1: First I didn't make a slip, I asked a question about something I wasn't sure of, would you have rather me not ask the question and continue to play wondering what the name meant?

No, I'd rather you made the slip.
Much easier to scumhunt that way.

2: You have been the only one to state I have craplogic and it's because it's against you (which shouldn't be a shocker) but using that as reasoning why I'm scum is just dumb

That's probably because after I demolished you, others didn't think it worth the effort. When you post contradictory statements and unsupportable assertions, people tend to notice, oddly. And actually, much of your craplogic was against chaos.

3: Your appeal to emotion is duely noted, but emotion doesn't no shouldn't win you votes in your favor

Huh?

4: I made a statement about somebody hammering a proven townie, you went off on a tirade and than said you won the debate. HOW did you win? Explain that for me

Blah, blah, hammer, blah, blah, blah. Yahoo.
You made a statement of "FOO is SCUM because of X". But X wasn't true, so your argument was garbage.

5: You did nominate a player you heavily defended against me and did so close to a nomination process,

Craplogic noted.

Ryan, my saying "your argument against PERSON X is crap" isn't a defense of person X. It's an attack on your argument.

I never indicated I thought Chaos' badly structured vote was good -- I just thought your attack on him was awful, and that your manner of play was scummy. "Chaos might be scum because he hammered a townie" isn't true; the placement of his vote was immaterial. "Chaos might be scum because he didn't seem to care who he voted for", however, is.

You weren't getting dinged for going after Chaos, but for failing to back up your arguments while doing it.

6: I stayed true with both of my nominations during Day 2 process while others swayed, so telling me that I switched stuff (or implying) I did the same yet you were called on it isn't true one bit

Yup. You dropped your OMGUS votes and stuck with them, thick or thin.

Wait, is this supposed to be non-scummy for some reason?

I'm not inclined to say who I find suspicous before a lynch/result; it's affected so much by the voting and its result.

[mneme]

The question of Scruffs=scum or scruffs=town is a huge WIFOM. I'm not willing to draw any conclusions on Scruffs' alignment based on his nomination.

I'm unsure on CO. OTOH, he did the "pile onto the scum after he's dead" thing that's oh, so suspicious. OTOH, unless we think ryan ran a bus straight at him, he's probably not scum with ryan. Though that last isn't that unlikely; need to reread. Finally, there's the general scumishness/newbishness of being the last to vote twice in a row.

I think ryan was being bussed by at least one partner -- his "this is crap" definitely feels like that to me. And clearly, his "what's a floater" -was- a tell; this is why we agressively pursue tells, even though they might not mean anything; all too often, they do.

re my "supporters": Pug89, ckillor, DragonsofSummer, FaerieLord, KaleiÐoscøpe

As I said, I'm pretty sure there's at least one passive-aggressive scum there running up a buddy, just by how ryan reacted to his lynch. I'd do more, but I'm feeling lazy; may do some actual analysis later (like tomorrow or something).

[mneme]

Peg, vel, mneme, and faerie lord:
It is most likely I will be nominating two of the four of you.

Fair enough.

I believe I shouldn't be nominated because by my actions, I've been agressively trying to find scum, rather than, as several of the others, either lurking or blustering. Such actions tend to attract attention -- but they also help flush ants (like Vel) out of the woodwork.

FL has played a very defensive game, which is itself suspicous, and needs a spur to greater and more useful activity.
Vel has defended known scum and made similar slips to Ryan's.
Pickemgenius seems to have spent most of this game posting jokey one-liners, and has been contradictory regarding ryan (plus he voted to keep ryan in when things were still in doubt, which raises the possiblity that he's a buddy).

[mneme]

Nebulous "slips" don't cut it.

Oddly enough, I play this game (as all games) with the assumption that my fellow players aren't idiots and can do their own reading, rather than my having to spell everything out.

[mneme]

@Elmo. The only reason mneme did that was to avoid being nominated. His case was not founded well, as it was just there to avoid the pressure

This is what we experienced mafia players generally refer to as "a lie". I put pressure on Ryan thoughout all of day 2, and, in fact, most of the early case on me was due to that very significant pressure. FWIW, claiming otherwise, sans sense or evidence, is AFAICT, the scummiest thing you've done so far.

That said, I'm currently leaning toward a VRK lynch -- though the level by which FL and VRK are bending backward to avoid actually attacking one another argues to me that they may be scum-buddies.

[mneme]

FL: ah. Your response wasn't very clear. No, the only reason I voted for CO wasn't to avoid nomination, though I wouldn't have minded doing so. The other reasons should be fairly obvious, both those stated and unstated.

Anyways, while it's not at all bad to discuss, I'm not on the block today.

[mneme]

Haven't seen anything to make me change my mind.

Vote: Vel-Rahn Koon

[mneme]

I'm glad to see DoS attracting some more attention.

farside22's reasoning is crap.

FOS: Farside22

.

Yes, obviously we have a much better chance if the HoH puts up two scum every time, and when the HoH is town, he or she will try to do so, but your post is a combination of the obvious and the absurd. If we could rely on those on the winning side of a floater vs scum match including all the scum, or even all the scum allied with a team, this game would be much, much easier.

It's also clearly not what's happening in this game -- at least one of ryan's teammates bussed him (as is to be expected).

Responding to the rest of your ideas would be giving advice to the scum, which is usually a bad idea.

[mneme]

One already did, farside22. You don't get to decide who the townies (floaters) are.

[mneme]

One already did, farside22. You don't get to decide who the townies (floaters) are.

Ummm I believe the game is that the floaters are trying to find the scum and figure out who they can trust. :roll:

Yup. Just like every other mafia game.

Unless I am missing something, your comment makes no sense what so ever.

You said something. I disagreed with you.

You then said "does any floater disagree with me?" This seems to assume I'm scum. Since I'm not, I take exception.

That's, you know, aside from taking exception to meaningless posturing which is less useful than the cliche "asking everyone in a circle whether they're scum" nonsense in a face to face game.

[mneme]

Prodded, and posting from vacation.

This is certainly a surprising turn of events.

OTOH, the will of the town was clearly violated -- while I know the town would be making a mistake by lynching me (though I'm still suspicious of DoS), I don't like the way our HoH handled this (perhaps the game would have been better served by a thanksgiving amnesty? Otoh, pickem had plenty of time to checkthe deadline).

And we're stuck with it now, more to the point.

Also, the accidental revelation of pickem's preferences may be useful -- if he's scum, in particular, as those on the bottom of a list he didn't expect to be seen aren't likely to be scum with him. Of course, this is only useful if he's scum -- except that if one of them is scum, he's somewhat more likely to be a floater (prob of town having scum as 2nd or last entry on list is 50%, whereas scum is less likely -- 1/3, more or less).

In any case, between our two candidates, I'm currently favoring farside22 for eviction over scruffs -- scruffs has been a very useful voice in the town, whereas I've generally not liked farside's behavior or arguments.

[mneme]

FWIW, I'd probably nominate DoS and Pickem.

vote: farside22

[mneme]

farside has a point about Skruffs. He's been a fairly popular player, but popular doesn't mean !scum.

FairieLord, there's no indication that a tie means a no-kill; in fact, the mod's "will be revealed if it needs to" (or whaterver; paraphrasing) indicates that a tie -will- be resolved.

[mneme]

I'm most suspicious of Pickemgenius.

For a second? Probably elmo, DoS, or FL

[mneme]

I know nobody seems to listen to me (or post coherent attacks), but while farside22 is a great pick, I prefer Elmo as scum to kalidescope. Kalidescope's been pretty useless too, though.

[mneme]

Sorry, work's gone into a crunch and I didn't find a lot of time for posting.

Skruffs, thanks for the save. The results are fascinating.

Something obvious to keep in mind: It's not just important that we lynch scum today -- it's important that we lynch an Alpha Dog. Because if farside isn't an AD and we lynch a non-AD -- even a PAscum, the game is over.

So we need to rate our nominees not only on scumminess (which is paramount, but they're both pretty scummy) but on how likely they are to be teamed up with ryan (our only exposed scum so far), since given equal scumminess, we want to lynch one who -isn't- on ryan's team, particularly given that farside22 was probably a PAscum (as Pickem, voted to save for ryanscum, supported ryan's position several times), putting us into L^L.

[mneme]

I am not sure how the AD will autowin if we mislynch today?

The OP?

...
Win condition: The alpha dog trio is alive and outnumbers or equals all others still in the game.

[mneme]

Skruffs: Er...read the rules. If a scumgroup is ever 50% of the town, they win. No "but what ifs" involved.

vote: KaleiÐoscøpe

[mneme]

1. DoS
2. FL
3. PuG
4. Elmo

DoS: 1st HoH, pushed FL's bw over kscope, kscope's buddying/following of my logic on DoS felt like distancing. Held back on vote on kscope until it was a fait accomplis. I've been suspicoius of DoS all game, and think several players were giving him a pass; this hasn't changed. Probably ADscum. Look for people who think expressing suspision of him is scummy for his remaining buddy (which apparently was my biggest sin in the minds of some. Go fig)
FL: pretty obvious. Didn't save the two people he felt were townies. Not great player overall.

[mneme]

That was me. Ick; work crunch.

Pug seems to have a hard-on for me. Interesting.

Welcome, Kuribo. I'm afraid you're in a tough spot here.

[mneme]

Yay, long weekend.

vote: kuribo

-- aside from it being a forgone conclusion, kuribo's buddying behavior doesn't give me a great feeling, nor does it erase the scummy vibes off his predecessors.

[mneme]

*shrug* I can't win, so it doesn't really matter who I nominate.

nominate: Pug89 & Elmo

I think Pug89 is the play for today.

[mneme]

Skruffs: Nice one.

But in fact:

If I'm scum, my goal is to get a "real" win by eliminating someone from the other side. No advantage to eliminating a floater and hoping to float on their better graces. Nor is there an advantage in this case in revealing alliances to the other team -- best to keep them guessing.

If I'm town, I've lost. So no point in worrying about it; I'm down to metagame goals like "try to nom two people on the same team" or just nomming randomly. And as a metagame goal, I might as well play in this case exactly as if I'm scum -- because that's the only goal I can really play to, and see "keep 'em guessing" above.

As it turns out, I'm town (the only one who'd know I'm not is a floater, and I'm the only one left) -- but you'll see this once the voting is done.

[mneme]

Pablito won't let me cast a tie breaking vote until you guys have posted a final plea for me to off your buddy (or off a member of the opposing team).

So...pug, elmo, post. You don't have to say much, but you must post something.

[mneme]

Skruffs: there is no final three. This game ends after today.

[mneme]

Something could have changed my mind (I mean, pug or Elmo might have challenged skruffs' claim as "only townie". But apparently, not so much. *knocks on wood*

Tiebreak vote: pug

[mneme]

Good game, people! I kept thinking I was going to be lynched any day now!


I ascribe our success mostly to the -massive- amounts of crossi-bussing DoS and I engaged in -- pretty much throughout the entire game! I think Pug was the only one to catch on that there might be something suspicious about it, or at least out loud -- and he was mafia!

Were there any powers in the game aside from the Veto?

[mneme]

skruffs: "win on tie" was established as the scum win condition in the opening post -- and is necessary; without it, the game drags on endlessly, with very little chancer of scum winning rather than tying, and no incentive for the scum to play correctly even toward the end.

As it was, the game should probably have ended once I put the entire other mafia in the penalty box, presuming there wasn't a power that could take them out -- as it was, we had a very lackluster day with a forgone conclusion; tension-raising (I pushed for pug over elmo because -if- skruffs was actuall PA scum, his putting elmo up for lynch could indicate that Elmo was the real final floater).

Re scum lynching town -- I don't know about the other team, but I (and, pretty much, my team) really favored lynching otherscum over town; they're much more of a threat (and trying to find other scum makes you look better, at least in heory) the lack of our success in that (except for Ryan) was failure, not success. I probably should have bussed Kali more (yeah, Kali, you did bus DoS, which was good, as it kept him from getting tarred with your brush), but didn't want to get into the trap of bussing both my partners for nearly no reason.

[mneme]

pab: yeah, it was fun. Mind, the narrow/inflexible deadlines didn't help things; I like fast games, but games decided by modkills and timeouts? not so much.

Elmo; Skruffs showed strong town signs at various points, but I couldn't be sure about him -- which was why I was favoring Pug's kill over yours, rather than not caring! After all, chances are, he'd not have nommed his partner in the penultimate playoff, so if Skruffs wasn't scum, you were the last townie! Of course, your play was loose enough that I was pretty sure you weren't a townie, nor Pug (and, in fact, I'd been pushing both of you fairly heavily, which may be what you meant , but better safe than sorry.

[mneme]

Oh, re my "pretending to be a townie" in the endgame -- -if- I'd somehow nommed a townie and a scum, it was in my interest to play them off among one another, to possibly get more info; info there was no interest in giving me if I were scum (if I'm scum, they both want to pretend to be townies). So in theory, I needed to keep at least a pretense in order to keep possiblities open -- if the game was over, it didn't do any harm, wheras if it wasn't, it might do some good.

If we hadn't endgamed you lot, actually, I think Skruffs would have won. We lynch Pug, making alliances extra-clear, and Pug noms elmo. Elmo lynches me, and I nom DoS. Dos lynches pug, who noms Scruffs, who kills off DoS. Bingo, town victory. Without an endgame rule, only way for me to force a scum victory was to lynch scruffs -- which would depend on who scruffs decided to throw the next HoH to; if he threw it to DoS, I'm golden, but he might very well throw it to opposing scum (ie, whoever I nommed him against) out of spite.

[mneme]

Skruffs: an interesting question . AFAIK, a game like this has only been done twice on MS -- and both times have been scum wins (the other didn't have a BB mechanic, but instead a challenge one -- but it ended up being fairly similar except when it wasn't).

To be fair, each scumgroup could only win by eliminating a similar number -- and would lose if it lost more than 2 members. I do think it's very possible for the town to win in this setup -- but the potential for townies to self destruct makes this harder.

[mneme]

Scruffs: the record, I think, stands against you.

The only PA-scum to be voted out was heavily pushed by several AD scum (and, in fact, my being very confident that Ryan was scum was one of the things causing people to (correctly, but for the wrong reasons) believe I was scum). Pug nommed Kali and YT. I was pushing Elmo and even Pug throughout the last half of the game -- etc.

[mneme]

Thanks for running regardless! I agree that the format didn't help by pushing a lot of power into the HoH's hands -- which in turn helped decrease non-scum involvement in the game and make it more likely the town would self destruct.