Mini 1568: Another Awesome Alliteration Adventure (over)

[MTD]

Oh, this has started. Also them OMGUSs are incredible.
VOTE: cho
First to post is probably scum.

[MTD]

Ah, yes, it is true we were probably already a bit further than that, nothing intentional, just wanted to come in on the game and I hadn't really put any thought into it at that point. I am ok with Elyse's vote on me for that reason, maybe with Dunhamganger's, too, cause wooo, wagons, but I am p sure I want more than "yay these people are sooo town based on RVS votes" from Cho. Staying with my vote.

Also
@Elyse: Any reason you think mnemonics Vote was good? From my POV it just looks like a pretty dull RVS-OMGUS.
Also, The only other vote that I would maybe have found to be worth commenting on was burnings' for wagon-jumping much but Riptide already did that. Other than that I often don't find much to comment on in RVS.

[MTD]

@TSO, I am ok with Elyse's vote meaning I think it is ok to point that out and she isn't scum for it, she is still wrong ofc.

[MTD]

You do realize I am currently voting Cho?

[MTD]

@Cho: Ok, but I still don't get how you manage to get anything at all from mnemonic up to this point.

[MTD]

@mod: I am voting cho, not burning.

Fixed.
-N

[MTD]

@Cho: are you an alt?
for me it pretty much looks that way, so I cannot really go with newbtown.

I will answer other stuff when I am not posting from phone, I hate it when I can't quote properly.

[MTD]

No, you vaguely said, "them OMGUSs are incredible" which literally means nothing and places no suspicion on anyone. The fact the you call it "commenting on something" shows that.

I never called it "commenting on something" as it was more of a general remark on the gamestate at this point, and as I stated, I hadn't really put much thought into it at that point, so yeah, you are right it doesn't really mean anything, but I never acted like it did, did I?

My MTD vote is for serious real. Elyse had a good read and he compounded it by finding a thin justification to pretend that his obvious random vote had reason to stay.

Yes, it was an obvious random vote.

Then

Cho made a post which I didn't like.
Then I decided to stay with my vote.
Now tell me why that would be scummy please.

[MTD]

Vote worthy, yes, but not that bad.

okaaay...

I might throw in at this point that from what I have read, T S O seems to play like this (aggressive, somewhat arrogant, not always with sound logic) regardless of alignment.

@caled: No idea, but why would you ever want to speculate on that? Even if there is one, how would Cho know that of others?

I call Cho as a Marangal alt.

[MTD]

I call Cho as a Marangal alt.

Nvm I take that back, I came to the conclusion, that she is, indeed, not an alt.

[MTD]

Hm, "I am not arrogant" and "I am not afraid of calling shit out" are not connected at all IMO.
Also I said nothing like your logic was faulty in general, just that it is not always sound.

I would discuss this at length, but why should I when it doesn't pose an immediate danger to town? It would just derail the conversation. All I said is that this was my impression from some other of your games I read, and at some degree this one as well. Also this obviously doesn't mean I wouldn't consider your cases as much, just that it wouldn't surprise me to find things not entirely adding up...
One example that does affect me at the moment (although it has already been discussed to some extent) is this:

Why would Town do that? Why would Town put themselves in their own "Unlynchable" pool? It's more likely to come from Scum than from Town, in my opinion, because it's a rather sneaky thing to do.

First you say it is scummy, then Elyse points out that it doesn't make sense as scum, then you say it didn't make sense as town

either

, ending up at it doesn't make sense anyway. So why is it scummy then? But as I said, it has nothing to do with your alignment, in this case just with me disagreeing with that reason for Cho-scum.

Actually I don't think Cho is scum at this point.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: caled
Has really not done anything that remotely resembles scumhunting, and I find that unlynchable-PR-speculation weirder the longer I think about it.
@caled: Who is scum?

[MTD]

Hum, I read up, but don't really have time to post much sensible right now, later.

[MTD]

Ok, I have decided I

really

don't want to answer to T S O's 'case' on Cho in detail.
Reason: I hate how he flames.
I'll stay with: This is not a case, this is a bunch of (sometimes far-fetched) assumptions and stating "there is no town motivation for that" at every corner, when a) there could be and b) he can't show a scum motivation either.
Sorry, but not convinced. I don't think T S O is scum either, tho.
Also, still waiting for caled.

[MTD]

I have to say I can't really buy into someone supposedly being an alt but posting in the newbie introduction thread.

[MTD]

@TSO:

Didn't like Cho's most recent post but I don't know if it's necessarily scummy.

[MTD]

Catching up tonight; the justification that you don't like me "flaming" and so you ...won't lynch scum is actively playing against your win condition.

C'mon this is stupid. I am scumreading neither you nor Cho (as I said for both).
I also stated that I don't agree with your "case" on Cho.
The only thing that I said me not liking you flaming was a reason for was not discussing that at length.
Way to misrep.

[MTD]

MTD - Is there something specific about Cho that doesn't make you want to lynch her? Or is it just gut?

Her reaction to being pushed seemed genuine to me, but yeah, much of it is gut and the absence of a reason why I

would

want to lynch her.

[MTD]

Does it not bother you that she basically contradicted herself on her TSO read?

How so? Not seeing it.

Also, doesn't it bother you that she tried to pass lurking off as town?

Not really seeing this either. She showed a possible town motivation for it, didn't say that it was a towny thing to do.
Generally speaking, lurking is null.

[MTD]

@TSO: I don't really know what you are getting at...
All I said was that Cho showed a possible town motivation.
And, unrelated to that, in general, lurking is null.

[MTD]

a)

I really want to bring myself to scumread him

i)

but I reluctantly think he is town for the blind aggression

1)

and yet I am also leaning toward scumreading him because I know he can be hyperaggressive to form a façade of towniness when he is scum.

a)

T S O is a

null

leaning

I-hope-you-are-scum

read for me.

b)

My vote is still on him because I don't like unnecessarily mean people.

4)

I was lurking out the pressure like a true townfuck.

@MTD

->null read, as it was later
->context! Direct reply to

she's lurking out the pressure like a true scumfuck.

So T S O said: "Scum motivation!", she said "Town motivation!"

[MTD]

But it's not lurking, it's lurking under pressure!

Fair enough, but that's still lurking...
Srsly, though, I think she made it quite clear why she would do that as town, and I have to say that is something I can buy into, given the playstate at that point, although it is not something I would do and she didn't really help herself by it.

@Cho: mind telling us whose alt you are? If you already did I missed that.

[MTD]

She said that he was town for blind aggression. She also said he leans scum because of his aggression. Either this is a contradiction or fence sitting disguised in wording.

What? don't you ever have arguments for scum and for town on a person?

Still. Lurking is not town. Ever. (Unless you get in PRs, which is different, and I'm not getting in to)

Already said that, lurking is null.
Arguably lurking under pressure, as TSO said, may in general be more probably scum, not sure about that though.

[MTD]

Note that because of aforementioned thought, I am not voting caled because I think she necessarily is scum, but because I hate not having a chance to read people.

[MTD]

MTD, the lurking was intentional and strategical to relieve pressure though. And admittedly too.

yes... but as I said, I have no problem with the reason she provides. I mean, yeah, that's something scum might do, too, but so might town, and in this case I don't find the scum explanation to be more probable (as I have already said probably)

[MTD]

Yes. That is something I do have a problem with, I just stumbled across that and it does seem strange.

[MTD]

Yes, I do. The difference is someone saying "Player A is town because of his aggression, but scum because of post whatever" and saying "Player A is town because of his aggression, but scum because of his aggression"

Looks more like "Player A is probably town for blind aggression, but it might be faked, so I also lean towards scumreading him, so null"
But yeah, that point TSO turned up just now makes me unsure.
I will do another readup on her tomorrow, have to go to sleep now.

[MTD]

Oh, I totally forgot this started again.
I agree with T S O's above point on Dunham.
Also I didn't have Riptide as scummy on D1, but I will look back at them later.
I did look into tool and am not sure what to think. He got onto the Cho wagon at a pretty convenient point and after that didn't engage her at all. On the other hand he seemed to be genuinely trying to figure out Dunham...
@tool: How about that readlist?
@Rubicon: Care to explain why Elyse dying makes Ripscum more probable?

[MTD]

As scum, they'd be lying about having that conversation last night. Where is the from doing that?

This is arguably WIFOM, but as I said I agree Rip may well be town.

[MTD]

Ok, so right now I am pretty much in agreement with tools list, except that Jargonaut doesn't really seem scummy to me so far and I wouldn't really put Egg as town yet.
Also Riptide doesn't look as bad to me on first glance and I don't really agree with either Rubicon's (which I don't really understand) or tools case on them, but that does (as I said) require more work on my part.

[MTD]

Hi BPC

[MTD]

I don't approve of the dunham wagon. Yeah, he doesn't seem very invested and his posts are generally not that serious, but really, that doesn't scream scum to me and as others said, the not-that-seriousness seems to be in his meta.
It really just seems to be an easy target which scum would love to hop on to me.

Also:

I'm short on time but I just wanna say I approve of the Dunham wagon.

Why this? You are voting him, it is obvious you approve, so why say this?

[MTD]

I don't approve of the dunham wagon. Yeah, he doesn't seem very invested and his posts are generally not that serious, but really, that doesn't scream scum to me and as others said, the not-that-seriousness seems to be in his meta.
It really just seems to be an easy target which scum would love to hop on to me.

Also:

I'm short on time but I just wanna say I approve of the Dunham wagon.

Why this? You are voting him, it is obvious you approve, so why say this?

Start an alternative wagon and give us a good reason to vote it with you.

Not really a new wagon, but I will
VOTE: b_e
(I did think I already was doing that...)
As I said I p much agree with what tool said there, also that "being angry at himself" seemed fake to me, I especially wouldn't expect a townie to make that much of a fuzz about "you should probably lynch me".

[MTD]

MTD, I wanted to show that my stance didn't change three votes later.

...Why would it?

I mean seriously, if someone doesn't like a wagon anymore I expect him to unvote, so that remark looked like "saying something for the sake of having said something". And that is a motivation I don't like.

[MTD]

First T S O's post, then claim, please, not the other way round.

[MTD]

And no one has given a reason why the hammer was scummy yet. Like if you think it was intentional, tell me why scum would do that when Cho was probably going to be lynched anyway.

As I said, I did not think the hammer itself was that scummy (although obviously it doesn't lack possible scum motivation) it's more his behaviour afterwards that was bad.

[MTD]

First T S O's post, then claim, please, not the other way round.

Why?

I wanted to know what T S O had to say before having a claim on my (or his) mind.

[MTD]

May I just add that it makes hell of a lot of sense for scum to lean back and let others defend yourself? I would like to hear more from b_e at this point.

[MTD]

Uh, what?

[MTD]

My goal was to get you to mix the two of us up.

I was "what"ing at this. I don't understand.

[MTD]

Reread the question on the second line of 537

Ah, okay, so that doesn't really matter, does it?

[MTD]

one got a guilty on night 1 and didn't claim/breadcrumb

I did crumb it, as I said in the dead PT, but I guess nobody picked that one up. I was unsure whether to claim it, as it was only a GS result and I had tool as pretty town at that point.

GG scumteam, though

[MTD]

MTD I thought it was an innocent crumb because I thought you'd claim a guilty...

Yeah, I didn't think of that at that point, sorry.