Mini 1568: Another Awesome Alliteration Adventure (over)

[toolenduso]

VOTE: Egg

LET'S MAKE AN OMELETTE.

Bet you've never heard that one before.

[toolenduso]

So this heated up fast.

Upon first reading, Cho looks, like, really scummy. I don't like to throw around the phrase "too scummy to be scum" but my read on her shot to the scum side so quickly I'm worried that her being scum would just be too easy an answer.

Here are the posts that stand out most to me:

I am 100% confident that Cho, Elyse, and mnemonicdevice are Town for their votes. Accordingly, they are now Town Day 1 Unlynchables.

This is way too early in D1 to eliminate two people as options for lynching. For all we know they could be 2/3 of the scumteam.

Forming RVS townreads in no way seriously confirms someone as town. Don't be silly. But if I have an RVS townread and happiness read on someone, unless their play drastically changes, I'm not going to want to lynch them at all!

They aren't seriously confirmed as town, but you're not willing to consider lynching them? That sort of thinking could just be anti-town and not scummy, but in this context it looks a lot like trying to soften the implications of the earlier statement without backing down from it completely.

Lastly, why should we assume that this game is or isn't multiball?

...where did this come from? It seems like it's in response to TSO saying he would be conftown if Cho flipped scum, but pulling multiball out of a hat is just...weird. It makes me paranoid about the possibilities of there being two scum factions or a SK, and that makes me wonder if the statement was meant to make townies paranoid about there being two scum factions or an SK, which is not something town would do.

I'm not scumreading you because you're scumreading me, and implying that my vote is purely or mostly OMGUS is such a nasty thing to do. I'm

annoyed with

and

voting

you because you seem to be one of those players that believe that by the sheer force of arrogance and don't-give-a-fuck-ance, you can establish yourself as a major

pro-town

force.

Which you can't, and shouldn't be allowed to attempt to pursue.

So you're not OMGUSing him, you're just voting him for a reason other than thinking he's scum. That's not much better.

There are certainly enough players here with considerably less desirable entrances than Elyse that even considering Elyse as a potential lynch candidate for today makes me upset.

I have seen a statement from scum before that was spookily similar to this. Cho has done quite a bit of buddying to Elyse in a relatively short amount of time, and Elyse has posted twice. OK, I get forming an RVS townread, but this is kind of moving beyond that.

Not willing to lay down a vote until I've looked through some other ISOs.

[toolenduso]

Burning_Earth gives off let's-push-people-and-see-how-they-respond vibes, which leans him toward town for me.

caledfwitch's post #55 pings my scumdar a little. Could be pushing an argument toward a mislynch without getting too involved/opening herself up to criticism/stepping out into the spotlight. The phrasing is kinda cautious.

@Dunhamganger: Could you explain your vote on MTD? And is it serious or RVS?

Elyse's votes seem fine to me.

MTD is a slight town lean for the same reason that Burning_Earth is.

@Riptide: Has the other head of your hydra posted/shared their thoughts with you yet?

oh hi tool!

winning scumteam last game: you paranoid of me?

Uh yes.

Burning_Earth, your opinion on the above would be appreciated.

Why Burning_Earth?

Everybody else either hasn't contributed enough for me to respond to or I have nothing to say about them yet.

[toolenduso]

UNVOTE: Egg

So this heated up fast.

You seem disappointed.

This by itself is a weird conclusion to jump to after me saying "So this heated up fast."

But taken with this post:

I'd ask why town would do that.

You like lynching players you have a townread on as town? Good to know.

It begins to look like you're intentionally jumping to conclusions in order to push people.

Why are you doing that, dun?

Why would Town put themselves in their own "Unlynchable" pool? It's more likely to come from Scum than from Town, in my opinion, because it's a rather sneaky thing to do.

This is the weakest point of your case. I mean, come on, I doubt even newbscum would actually believe that they could trick town into thinking they were town by slipping themselves into a list of "unlynchables."

[toolenduso]

OK I'm ready to vote Cho. This looks much more like the townTSO I'm familiar with than the scumTSO. Also, people's defenses of Cho against TSO's case haven't convinced me as much as what I've seen from her slot (or from most of TSO's case). Also:

It's natural that your suspicion of Cho is fading; she's lurking out the pressure like a true scumfuck.

This is a very good point. This is something that I have deliberately done as scum before, and it worked like a charm.

VOTE: Cho

@Dunham: would you mind giving a serious response to my question, or was #89 as serious a response as I'm going to get?

[toolenduso]

OK, then I'll phrase it this way: are you willing to further explain your answer to my question?

[toolenduso]

2)

I realize that my vote on T S O may actually fall under the category of "OMGUS voting", in the sense that I did roll my eyes and say "Oh My God" and that T S O does, in fact, suck.

a)

I really want to bring myself to scumread him

i)

but I reluctantly think he is town for the blind aggression

1)

and yet I am also leaning toward scumreading him because I know he can be hyperaggressive to form a façade of towniness when he is scum.

a)

T S O is a

null

leaning

I-hope-you-are-scum

read for me.

b)

My vote is still on him because I don't like unnecessarily mean people.

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. It seems like either a read that was developed and debated as it was written down (ie, her mind wasn't made up beforehand) or like a read that came out as vague and flip-floppy because the feelings behind it aren't genuine (ie, because she isn't actually trying to find scum).

Not sure which is more likely. The first one is the easier explanation, but that could come from either scum or town.

In other news, dunhamganger is either being a really annoying townie or is deliberately avoiding meaningful conversation because he's scum. I've asked him a question three times and he has yet to give me a clear response. He continues to post either quips meant to piss people off or accusatory questions based on clear misrepresentations of what other players are saying.

Also, his vote on Riptide looks kinda bad. He switched it from MTD, which seemed to be a serious vote, without providing reasoning. It looked like he was essentially sheeping B_E's read, and came across like "welp, MTD isn't getting (mis)lynched so I guess I'll hop onto a (mis)lynch that's more likely to happen!"

[toolenduso]

Your question amounts to "Why are you the way that you are?"

Right except that's not what I'm asking at all. I'm asking about why you are engaging in a specific behavior and you have refused to explain it.

Ask me something game-relevant or sack up and vote.

It's relevant because I'm trying to get you to post content and thus develop a read on you.

Rest assured, my vote would be on you if I didn't think Cho still looks worse.

[toolenduso]

So, toolenduso, when did you stop beating your wife?

I never beat my wife and I'm not married.

See, I answered your question.

The problem now is that it doesn't even matter anymore whether you answer my original question. Your lack of a response is an answer in itself, and the answer is that you don't want to have a productive conversation.

Btw, here were some possible answers to my original question:

"I'm not doing what you say I'm doing, but rather doing x for y reason."
"I'm trying to get players to do x behavior, which will give me evidence that I can use to form a read on them."

Now, why is it that you wouldn't want to give a simple answer like that? One explanation could be that you're deliberately trying to annoy me/everyone in the game. That could be town or scum. Another explanation could be that you believe your behavior is scummy (because you're scum) and therefore didn't want to admit as much in-thread, but would rather deflect the question.

I would ask you about your motivation behind it, but I know I wouldn't get anywhere with it. So you leave me no choice but to come to conclusions about you without getting any input from you.

[toolenduso]

Pretty sure that was a hammer.

@Rubicon: If you could've voted for somebody before the day ended, who would it have been?

[toolenduso]

I

was

going to put together a reads list, but I guess I’ll wait until the next day phase.

One thing I’ll say now is that I did some meta research on Dunhamganger and found that he does play like this as town. I couldn’t find any viable scum games to compare his play to, so I’m not sure if he does the same things as scum, but I don’t think he looks as scummy anymore based on what I was saying before.

[toolenduso]

If at is exactly why I put it in my last post that Cho was at L1. If Cho is scum then BE is basically cleared at least.

I'm not sure I would go that far. Scum could hammer their partner for towncred in that situation.

Right now I'm a little busy to go through my past games, but I feel like I've been in a game where that's happened actually.

Cho, are you scum?

[toolenduso]

@tool: How about that readlist?

I'm going to respond to D2 posts/ask questions first, then do my reads list.

both the wagon from yesterday being 2/3 confirmed town

I don't understand what this sentence means, could you explain?

Okay, using NK WIFOM to justify a vote on someone is bad. It is the baddest of bads.

And what about Rubicon's other reasons for voting you?

By the by, most of our play so far is just dice being dice.

I have seen this defense used from a scum hydra before.

[toolenduso]

Town:

Spoiler: caledfwitch/Rubicon

Nothing comment-worthy from caledfwitch.

I think Cho was probably the best wagon.

Fucking quickhammers, though.

This post makes me think Rubicon is town. If he were scum and knew that Cho was a mislynch, I would expect him to distance himself from it in twilight (he hadn't placed a vote yet and the above post was in response to me asking who he would have voted for if he'd had the chance.) If he were scum, he could have easily said "I don't know, I haven't looked at the other slots yet" or something like that, but instead he tied himself to the Cho wagon.

Spoiler: Egg

Posts #9, #14, #68, #193 and more seem like genuine, equal-opportunity scumhunting to me.

Generally getting towny vibes from this slot.

Spoiler: MTD

In post #106, MTD unvotes Cho when she was at L-3. I don't see scum doing this. The reasoning he gives afterward for unvoting Cho seems genuine:

Her reaction to being pushed seemed genuine to me, but yeah, much of it is gut and the absence of a reason why I

would

want to lynch her.

Does it not bother you that she basically contradicted herself on her TSO read?

How so? Not seeing it.

Also, doesn't it bother you that she tried to pass lurking off as town?

Not really seeing this either. She showed a possible town motivation for it, didn't say that it was a towny thing to do.
Generally speaking, lurking is null.

Otherwise nothing particularly scummy I see in this slot.

Null-town:

Spoiler: Dunhamganger

When looking through Dun's meta, I couldn't find any viable scum games to compare his play to, so these are all town games. The links are posts that remind me of his play in this game:

Mini 1388, 20th Century Philosophy: 12, 19, 175, after that he begins actually posting content

Mini 1393, Oh What a Year!: 175, 177, 188, 201

Mini 1382, The Mystery at Lake Village: 40, 194, other than that he actually isn't a whole lot like he is in the current game, in the sense that he is contributing more, asking people questions and is willing to engage with them.

The conclusion here is that Dunhamganger acts this way (being a bit of a jerk to people, not giving much reasoning to his votes, not being all that willing to engage in meaningful conversation with other players early in the game) when he's town. I don't know if he acts this way when he's scum, so it's not enough for me to fully townread him, but generally conforming with your town meta is a fairly good sign of being town.

Spoiler: TSO

Time for TSO's mighty CHO BACKTRACK POST OF SCUMMINESS.

Not sure what this post was all about.

A lot of TSO's posts on here (Posts #105, #123, #124 are good examples) remind me of the game I played with him where I was scum and he was town in that TSO is very aggressive, very confident and sometimes downright mean. Conversely, his play in the game where I was on a scumteam with him was quite different. In that game he was much calmer and much less willing to tunnel on people. It seemed more like he wanted to stay at the edge of the spotlight in that game, whereas in this game he deliberately thrust himself into the center (or near-center) of it.

I also feel like all but one of his reasons for pushing Cho were legitimate reasons, which makes his push against her feel more genuine. The one I disagreed with was him saying that it was scummy for Cho to include herself in her "unlynchable" list. I didn't, and still don't, see that as anything more than just a thing that any player would say regardless of alignment.

That being said, I don't like that Cho was more or less the one player TSO focused on on D1. Yes, that was the "biggest" thing happening, and yes, TSO did interact with other players, but I don't think I saw him giving a legitimate read on any other players during D1 (besides his "Riptide can be town because he agrees with me" thing) -- that's a problem, and enough to stop me from fully townreading TSO.

Null:

Spoiler: mnemonic

Wow. I am not caught up on this.
Will make a long catchup post by weekend at the latest.

Would like to see this.

Null-scum:

Spoiler: Riptide

Also, The only other vote that I would maybe have found to be worth commenting on was burnings' for wagon-jumping much but Riptide already did that. Other than that I often don't find much to comment on in RVS.

No, you vaguely said, "them OMGUSs are incredible" which literally means nothing and places no suspicion on anyone. The fact the you call it "commenting on something" shows that.

I don't even... I know MTD already said something, but nowhere was the expresion "them OMGUSs are incredible" said vaguely. It's right in the middle of his first post. It can't be much clearer than it is. And why would someone cast suspicion on someone this early, especially with their RVS post?

Why would somebody cast suspicion that early on? For a number of obvious reasons: to get out of RVS, because they find something genuinely suspicious, because they're scum trying to look like they're scumhunting, etc., etc. Those reasons are numerous enough and obvious enough that Riptide's question here seems like a forced defense of MTD. I see a scum motivation behind that kind of defense regardless of MTD's alignment.

Hah I love how you try to make lurking look town.

Still. Lurking is not town. Ever. (Unless you get in PRs, which is different, and I'm not getting in to)

I agree lurking is most often null, but trying to pass it off as town is ridiculous.

So lurking is not town, and it's usually null, but it can be scummy. So what's the difference between Cho's lurking vs. the lurking of caledfwitch and mnemonicdevice?

By the by, most of our play so far is just dice being dice.

Like I mentioned before, this post doesn't sit well with me. I've seen scum use their partner as an excuse before and it was basically a way to not answer for their slot's scumminess.

This slot looks suspicious to me, but not as suspicious as B_E, with whom this slot is diametrically opposed. As I said before, if one of {B_E, Riptide} flips scum then the other is probably town.

Spoiler: TBP

Post #164 is the only post in this ISO that gives content without saying some form of "sorry we haven't been active, will catch up later." The reasoning behind the Cho vote is, I believe, entirely made up of things people have already said. The activity level of this hydra on D1 could be described as activelurking.

Scum:

Spoiler: B_E

Moar votes on riptide plz

This post strikes me as a little weird because B_E's original vote on Riptide had very little stated reasoning. When I saw the original vote on Riptide I actually assumed it was just early game trying-to-get-out-of-RVS shallow voting. Yet the above post reads like B_E thinks Riptide is lynch-worthy at this point and therefore not just a shallow vote. Could be scumB_E not having a genuine reason for scumreading Riptide because B_E is scum and therefore has no genuine reads.

Post #138 is B_E sticking to his original case on Riptide, which was formed very early in the game and has apparently not changed up to that point. Then Rubicon comes into the game and in post #245 he again calls for more votes on Riptide. This seems like a lot of pushing for a read that was formed pretty early in the game and so far only has one piece of reasoning behind it (and not a very strong one at that).

B_E hammers Cho in #275 after hard-defending Cho for most of the day. He says he didn't realize it was a hammer, which can't be proven or disproven so it's null. He gives this as his reasoning for voting Cho:

she made some really bad posts. See 254.

The laziness of that case supports B_E being scum because it makes the following scenario more plausible:

B_E sees Riptide as a mislynch target -> continues to push Riptide but doesn't post much reasoning because he doesn't have much reasoning -> thinks Cho mislynch won't go through (while pressure

did

build steadily on Cho yesterday, pressure also built pretty steadily on the Riptide wagon and there were moments when it looked like the Cho wagon wouldn't go through) -> B_E sees Cho wagon can actually go through and decides to hammer

That being the case, I would guess B_E is just a goon and therefore sees himself as more expendable and would think it's better to make himself look scummy by hammering a mislynch than waiting on a partner to do it (this is assuming at least one of his partners wasn't on the Cho wagon).

I feel pretty confident in saying that if B_E is scum, Riptide is probably not, and vice versa. I don't see scum continuing to push a partner like that when a juicy mislynch was there to support instead.

Spoiler: Jargonaut

The combination of this post (which is in reference to TSO):

I looked at some of your town games, and to be honest, you play fairly aggressive most of the time. I'm retracting the meta part of my argument. That said, you're still my biggest suspect, so I'm keeping my vote on you.

And this post (which is in response to Cho):

I never said meta was the biggest part of my argument against TSO. However, seeing as a lot of people have stated that he plays in a similar manner all the time, I'm doubting whether my initial read was very good.

So actually, you're right in that my vote on TSO doesn't make a lot of sense anymore.
UNVOTE:

Seems suspicious to me though. It almost seems like Jargonaut was waiting for an excuse to unvote TSO so she could go hop on a more viable wagon (that post was made when Riptide was at L-3 and Cho was at L-2. To be fair, Jargonaut

didn't

vote anybody else before the end of the day, but then she didn't need to in order for Cho to get lynched.

This actually fits in pretty nicely with my theory that B_E hammered because he's a goon and he'd rather make himself look scummy than have a scumpartner with a PR do it. If either Jargonaut or B_E were to flip scum, I would be looking at the other.

VOTE: Burning_Earth

[toolenduso]

Well scum wouldn't be talking to each other overnight about who is scum and why.

I have personally discussed who looks scummy and who doesn't overnight with my scumpartners.

[toolenduso]

oh for fucks sake

VOTE RIPTIDE

Have you explained this vote already and I missed it? If not, could you give your reasoning?

how exactly can you tell when someone is legitimately not giving a shit? isn't that contradictory? I don't know, just seems weird.

This post confuses me. What statement is contradicting what other statement?

^ Exactly. I mean, it could be faked, but more likely isn't?

Especially the way Dice followed up by saying it was a full "ISO, case thingy" which meant they had to spend/waste a bunch of time putting together a long-ass case against her.

This is the only point I've seen for why Riptide's statement is town that makes sense to me. It's not enough for me to say "Riptide is town because they did this" but it's enough for me to acknowledge it as evidence for their slot being town.

Tentatively think B_E's reaction to realizing he accidentally hammered, and his first couple posts today, feels town

Could you expand on this please?

If I were scum waiting to unvote TSO so that I could hop on another wagon, I would have actually:
A. Just unvoted in the first post since no one else was voting TSO anyway, and my explanation for unvoting would have made just as much sense in the first post as in the second if it were fake.

When you say "the first post," which post are you referring to?

B. Gotten on another wagon. Without me having done this, your case doesn't make much sense.

Well, your unvote was made at 3:08 p.m. on April 24, and the next vote on Cho was made by Dunhamganger at 8:06 a.m. on April 25. I don't know what timezone you're in, but I assume there was some sleeping going on during that span. So I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to say you were either debating whether to hop onto the Cho wagon or trying to find a reason to.

That being said, I feel like it doesn't make a whole lot of difference. My scenario is ultimately just a guess at why you, as scum, might have done what you did -- I still find it generally suspicious for a player to cave the way you did. It feels like it's not genuine play, and town play with genuine-ness.

For me being so far down on this list of yours, you really don't have much going for the read. I'm not sure if it's just because you think it fits with your BE read or what, but it's very flimsy.

To clarify, you being below B_E on my reads list doesn't mean I consider you scummier than him.

[toolenduso]

Explanation for my vote

Which post is this in reference to?

[toolenduso]

How is that an explanation of your vote?

[toolenduso]

@Tool: I'm referring to the first and second posts of mine that you quoted in your reads list.

OK, so to recap, you're saying if you wanted to unvote you would have just done it in that first post I quoted where you said you were retracting the meta part of your argument.

Fair enough, but that's exactly what makes me suspicious. Why wouldn't you have just unvoted then?

Where is the logic behind me waiting to unvote TSO so that I can vote someone else, but then not actually knowing who to vote? Doesn't the idea of me wanting to vote someone else imply that I have someone else in mind to vote?

No, because scum have no genuine town motivation behind voting for somebody. So it would make sense for scum to want to vote for somebody else but not be sure who.

The fact that you don't seem to understand that actually makes me feel a little better about your slot though because it suggests you don't understand how scum would see things. Not enough to make you a townread, but it makes you a little less suspicious.

It would be helpful for me if I could see your scum games. Could you provide links?

This while scenario is convoluted, and it seems like you are just trying to make something seem scummy when it isn't.

You're getting bogged down in the fringes of what I said. The core of my argument is this. These behaviors:

-Retracting the biggest part of your argument for scumreading someone
-Declaring that they are still your biggest suspect
-Keeping your vote on them anyway

Seem scummy to me because they contradict each other and therefore suggest that your motives aren't genuine.

[toolenduso]

I don't think that post is actually particularly bad - it's one of Cho's best posts, Burning_Earth.

I don't agree that it's one of Cho's best posts, but I don't think it was particularly scummy either. Now that you point it out, B_E pointing to that post as the main reason he flip-flopped and voted for Cho makes B_E look worse in my eyes. There was plenty to scumread Cho for before that post, but that's the one that made him switch? Seems like shallow reasoning to me.

[toolenduso]

Will post later today.

[toolenduso]

Anyway, you said that I was waiting to unvote TSO so that I could "hop on a more viable wagon." The key word here is

waiting

. If I were

waiting

to hop on a new wagon, wouldn't that imply that I already wanted to get on a new wagon and thus had a wagon in mind to get on? If I'm

waiting

to do something, why wouldn't I do it?

There could be many possible scum motivations behind unvoting TSO and then not voting for somebody else. Maybe you hadn't made up your mind as to which wagon you wanted to get on. Maybe you only felt pressure to unvote and you didn't feel so much pressure to hop on a different wagon. Maybe Riptide was your partner, so you didn't want to vote for them, but you also couldn't drum up a convincing enough case on Cho in time to hop on the wagon before it hit L-1.

You also haven't explained to me why it makes sense for me

as scum

to wait to unvote if I had some better wagon to be on anyway.

See above.

I already responded to Cho when she said that exact same thing. You've read the post, I'm sure, seeing as you already quoted it.

Uh...I looked through your ISO just now and found a post where you responded to Cho challenging your read on TSO. That was the post where you unvoted TSO. But I didn't see anything where you responded to Cho talking about your unvote. I'm not even sure Cho did talk about your unvote.

Can you point to the post you're referring to?

The reason I said your scenario is convoluted is because there doesn't seem to be scum motivation for me to do the things you are saying I did.

I've noted the scum motivation several times now.

I feel like the Dunhamganger wagon has built up without a whole lot of argument. So if it goes through we should be able to get quite a bit of information from the flip.

[toolenduso]

Also, I thought your working theory was that BE was my partner. Now I'm with Riptide?
And with the way multiple people on the Cho wagon voted (I.E. almost naked-ly), you don't think I could have come up with a short reason in order to join on if I'd wanted to?

1. Yes, either partner pairing is possible. I don't understand what the issue is here.
2. Of course you could have come up with a short reason. But maybe you wanted a more convincing reason so people wouldn't find it scummy.

You also haven't explained to me why it makes sense for me

as scum

to wait to unvote if I had some better wagon to be on anyway.

See above.

I'm looking, but I don't see an answer. You gave possible motivation for me not voting someone else, but not for me keeping my vote on TSO when I was supposedly waiting to take it off anyway. What was I waiting for?

Sorry, I misread the question.

The answer is, again, that there could be several scum-motivated reasons. One could be that you were waiting for somebody to give you a reason. Another could be that you were trying to stay out of the spotlight so you didn't want to vote or unvote and draw attention to yourself. Another could be that you weren't waiting at all, and rather that you just didn't believe in your case very much and so the second a townie attacked it you felt like you had to distance yourself from it.

I already responded to Cho when she said that exact same thing. You've read the post, I'm sure, seeing as you already quoted it.

Uh...I looked through your ISO just now and found a post where you responded to Cho challenging your read on TSO. That was the post where you unvoted TSO. But I didn't see anything where you responded to Cho talking about your unvote. I'm not even sure Cho did talk about your unvote.

Can you point to the post you're referring to?

You're getting bogged down in the fringes of what I said. The core of my argument is this. These behaviors:

-Retracting the biggest part of your argument for scumreading someone
-Declaring that they are still your biggest suspect
-Keeping your vote on them anyway

Seem scummy to me because they contradict each other and therefore suggest that your motives aren't genuine.

That is what I responded to. Note that you didn't say anything about my unvote here. You had a list of 3 items which had to do with my

keeping

my vote on TSO despite dropping the meta-related part of my argument, which is something I already responded about when Cho brought it up.

OK. Then what I'm saying is that it looks bad to me.

The reason I said your scenario is convoluted is because there doesn't seem to be scum motivation for me to do the things you are saying I did.

I've noted the scum motivation several times now.

This is a very odd thing to say. Up until this post, you hadn't noted any scum motivation, so you responding to me with this makes it seem like you're trying to make my arguments look redundant when they aren't.

Lol this should be fun. Let's quote all the times I've listed the possible scum motivations:

Spoiler: All the times I've given possible scum motivations for Jargonaut's actions

It almost seems like Jargonaut was waiting for an excuse to unvote TSO so she could go hop on a more viable wagon (that post was made when Riptide was at L-3 and Cho was at L-2.

I still find it generally suspicious for a player to cave the way you did. It feels like it's not genuine play, and town play with genuine-ness.

No, because scum have no genuine town motivation behind voting for somebody. So it would make sense for scum to want to vote for somebody else but not be sure who.

The core of my argument is this. These behaviors:

-Retracting the biggest part of your argument for scumreading someone
-Declaring that they are still your biggest suspect
-Keeping your vote on them anyway

Seem scummy to me because they contradict each other and therefore suggest that your motives aren't genuine.

Maybe you hadn't made up your mind as to which wagon you wanted to get on. Maybe you only felt pressure to unvote and you didn't feel so much pressure to hop on a different wagon. Maybe Riptide was your partner, so you didn't want to vote for them, but you also couldn't drum up a convincing enough case on Cho in time to hop on the wagon before it hit L-1.

OK I'm ready to vote Cho. This looks much more like the townTSO I'm familiar with than the scumTSO. Also, people's defenses of Cho against TSO's case haven't convinced me as much as what I've seen from her slot (or from most of TSO's case). Also:

It's natural that your suspicion of Cho is fading; she's lurking out the pressure like a true scumfuck.

This is a very good point. This is something that I have deliberately done as scum before, and it worked like a charm.

VOTE: Cho

@Dunham: would you mind giving a serious response to my question, or was #89 as serious a response as I'm going to get?

@BE - The fact you called out my vote on Cho and not this one really bugs me.

Please elaborate on why he should have called me out for my vote instead of/along with yours, because from where I'm sitting this looks like a very sneaky way of pushing suspicion on to somebody else.

@TSO and Jargonaut: If you were to vote for anybody right now, who would it be?

@Rubicon and The Betting Pool: I'd like to hear some more explanation for your votes.

[toolenduso]

I'm done with this stupid back and forth.

Hey that's fine by me. I've stated my opinions and you haven't said anything that really made me reconsider them. I feel like at this point we're going in circles so fuck it.

Will read and talk more thoroughly after sleep.

Looking forward to it.

VOTE: B_E
TSO and Riptide also feel like scum

Do B_E, TSO and Riptide feel like partners to you or do you just think there's scum somewhere in there?

ya that vote was kind of bad as well.

Did I not say something about deflection?

Well, 3dice you are guilty of it.

Did you think 3dice was guilty of deflection when you posted #424 or only after reading my response to Riptide's post?

[toolenduso]

@TSO, Jargonaut, TBP and Rubicon: I asked you questions on the last page.

[toolenduso]

What exactly is the case on Burning again?

Mine is pretty much the same as it was in #319. His play since that post hasn't been convincing either, as Sleepy pointed to in his case.

[toolenduso]

Why not look to see if he used the sample role PM as an actual role before.

I love you BPC!

Your post is bad though. You defend me although heaps while still having a scum read on me.

Spoiler: Post 531

Putting on my flip-flops

UNVOTE: VOTE: cho

Terrible vote
Not that voting Cho is itself bad. But the way he did it. Ugh

Would you think this if it wasn't a hammer?

Didn't see the end of last page. I'll respond to Rubicon whenever I get back online. Busy day.

Oh, and I'm also debating whether or not I should vote Riptide. Partially because I'm kind of tired of their misrepresentative attacks on me, partially because it's the biggest wagon besides mine. Any thoughts? Would you call me out as scummy for being survivalistic, or are Town not allowed to want to avoid guaranteed mislynches?

Bye.

BRILLIANT EXPLANATION
(why is he explaining

after

the vote anyway?)

That'll teach me to be checking VCs!

so forced

Damn

within one minute of the previous post
the force is strong with this one

I like to spout verbal diarrhoea. It's fun for me

I'm town pinky promise

(DISCLAIMER: THE CORRECT PLAY IS PROBABLY TO LYNCH ME)

Proper town attitude would be "I fucked up. I'll try to do what I can before I'm lynched."

Maybe.

I'm always looking for ways to improve my town game, thanks for offering that comment

she made some really bad posts. See 254.

I have removed his "case" from this quote to save space

My case on riptide.

Riptide attacked cho without voting her until other people had.

Another masterpiece from B_E cases TM

Another masterpiece indeed. Looks like someone trying to make some noise and hoping nobody hears what they're actually saying

That unfunny image does not make you right.

That isn't all my points. I hate cases, so when asked to make a case... I DONT WANNA! I DONT THINK SO!

Oh this is your elyse case

All the links are fucked up

I don't think he ever explained the underlined part

So... My iPad is shit. Fuck, I'm scum, you got me.

meh. I still don't see a better wagon.

Dunham wagon is shit. (1)

B_E wagon is shit

. You'd think I'd have more reads in 17 pages, but (2)

I'm not really invested in this game.

1. Again, not how town that knows they should die would play. They'd be trying to be as useful as possible.
2. Bullshit. He was actually pushing Riptide until the heat on himself got turned up.

1. But I don't wanna die!
2. If I was really invested in this game, then I would be posting more and reading more

Hi guys.

I get that my quick hammering was bad, but seriously.

As scum, would I do that?

:Lol:

Two can play at that game.

Lololololololol ignore ignore ignore

These posts make me think that BPC could be a partner to B_E. It looks like B_E using BPC's case as a lazy way of defending himself, then realizing he probably shouldn't tie himself to his partner right before being lynched, distancing himself from BPC by saying his post was bad, and then going back to defend himself against SK without BPC's help to further diminish the tie.

Actually, I've found a lot of the play involving B_E and the BPC slot to be weird today. BPC's been attacking the case against B_E while not necessarily defending B_E, and now B_E does this weird flip flop on BPC's defense in the span of several minutes.

[toolenduso]

Sorry couldn't resist.

One, because I feel like it would be bastard modding to include a sample role PM for a role that wasn't going to be in the game. Sample role PMs exist so that people like Kaze can't go to scum and say "tell me what your wincon is" (or in this case "tell me what your flavor name is"). If town could do that it would be a really cheap way of winning.

Two, because Cho already flipped with the same role as what N used in his sample PM.

Regardless, Egg is right. It's not a good sign that B_E pointed to the sample PM instead of his own.

[toolenduso]

Okay, so BE originally called me out because he said we waited for other people to vote Cho before voting for her, which in fact is absolute bull crap. If you look at the timing of our posts of our interactions with Cho, there were no votes added to her until from the moment we engaged her to the moment we voted her. The reason we say he should've said something about that post is because the way you worded it, it sounded like you could have been waiting to see how the wagon was going before actually voting (at the very least, you were waiting on Cho to defend herself). If you read the wording of our post, it was not "Look at Tool! He did it too!" it was more like, "By your logic, shouldn't you have called Tool out as well?". One benefit from posting this was the reactions that came from it. We gave BE some town points for calling you out on your post and not just straight up tunneling, but lost town points when he tried to call us out on a deflection that wasn't there.

At this point, BE is just trying to fabricate reasoning on us that's not even there.

Ah, I got it. I took your post a different way but that makes sense.

tool, explanation for the vote, Lucky thought Dunhamganger looked like scum. I disagreed, but since I didn't have a strong scum read of my own I was all right leaving our vote there. Now I do, and I even got us synched up on it for now.

I know your vote isn't on that slot anymore but I still feel like it could be useful in the future so I'll ask anyway. Lucky, could you elaborate on why you thought Dunhamganger looked scummy?

[toolenduso]

I meant to do some more work on this game today but IRL stuff happened. I'll get to looking through ISOs tomorrow.

So for now, here's what I have to say. BPC looks very town to me, because why would scum hammer a mislynch when they had two people who had already declared intent to hammer that mislynch?

TSO looks town for almost the same reason -- Rubicon had already declared intent to hammer, so why declare intent to hammer?

So assuming neither of them are scum and there are two scum remaining, I have a 50% chance of hitting scum with my vote.

As for SK's case:

So let's summarize
tool said "you did this thing which I think is scummy"
Jargo said "it is not scummy and you didn't note any scum motivation"
tool said "I did indeed note scum motivation and here are examples"
Jargo said "ONE (1) of those examples is from after I asked the question!!! conversation over!!!"
tool said "okay"

Let me ask you this -- did

you

think there was anything productive going on in that conversation? I didn't. We were going around in circles. I had already stated my beliefs and saw no reason to carry on. Jargonaut remained one of the scummier-looking people in the playerlist to me, and that was that.

tool did not point out the gigantic logical fallacy made by Jargo.

I learned very early on when I came back to this site that logical fallacies are committed just as readily -- sometimes moreso -- by town as they are by scum.

tool did not actually try to convince anyone of Jargo's scumminess besides Jargo herself. tool was making a lot of noise while trying not actually to be heard.

I wasn't making my posts in a vacuum; everyone could see my case. People generally chose not to respond or didn't agree. Meanwhile I had this other player, B_E, who looked much worse to me -- so I stuck with that wagon instead.

[toolenduso]

OK so I'm going to do this in chunks.

I didn't see anything in MTD's ISO suggesting his results. The closest thing to a result crumb I could find was with Dunhamganger/Sleepy:

I've seen scum pretend not to give a fuck, but in Dunham's case, it seems legitimate. He genuinely doesn't seem to give a shit, which is Town.

I agree with T S O's above point on Dunham.

I don't approve of the dunham wagon. Yeah, he doesn't seem very invested and his posts are generally not that serious, but really, that doesn't scream scum to me and as others said, the not-that-seriousness seems to be in his meta.
It really just seems to be an easy target which scum would love to hop on to me.

The reason this is a possible result crumb is that those posts happened during D2, and MTD hadn't really made much of a comment on Dunhamganger's slot during D1. So he possibly could have gotten a negative result on the Dun/SK slot, but I kind of doubt it because MTD wasn't saying "Dunhamganger is town," he was saying "I disagree with the cases against Dun" and "the Dun wagon looks opportunistic to me."

Besides that, I see no obvious read shifts or crumbs in MTD's D2 posts.

As for Egg's claim, I'm inclined to believe it because claiming vig at this point would be pretty dangerous for scum to do.

I have a question though:

I will say that everything I've done with my role will be very obvious when I flip. Feel free to ISO me at that point

I looked through your ISO and didn't really see any indication that you were going to shoot Jargonaut. Did I miss something?

So that leaves {TBP, Sleepy, Riptide} in my lynch pool. I feel pretty confident that the scum is in there through process of elimination. I'm going to do their ISOs next.

[toolenduso]

Whoops forgot about this.

So assuming neither of them are scum

hang on

I learned very early on when I came back to this site that logical fallacies are committed just as readily -- sometimes moreso -- by town as they are by scum.

town can play sub-optimally but scum can't?
if not, why even make that statement (first quote) in the first place?

I'm confused by this question. Where did I say that scum can't play sub-optimally?

Let me ask you this -- did you think there was anything productive going on in that conversation? I didn't. We were going around in circles. I had already stated my beliefs and saw no reason to carry on. Jargonaut remained one of the scummier-looking people in the playerlist to me, and that was that.

Because if you actually pointed out that she completely dodged your argument and declared the conversation dead, I would've jumped all over that shit. Probably.

Hindsight's 20/20, man. You see something that looks obviously scummy to you now, but you apparently didn't notice it at the time. I saw something that looked pretty much null (if also annoying) to me and didn't think to run around asking people what they thought of it.

Obviously I was wrong because Jargonaut was scum, so I'll consider things like that more seriously in the future with players that I think are similar to Jargonaut.

I wasn't making my posts in a vacuum; everyone could see my case.

It's not a real case if you're presenting it to the person you're calling scum. It's not a real case if you're content watching the town completely ignore your read.

Yeah but like I said, I wasn't just making it toward Jargonaut -- I was posting in the thread, where everybody could see it. I expect people to read the game and comment on what they find comment-worthy. That in itself is a way to read people -- by looking at what they choose to comment on and what they choose not to comment on.

The reason I didn't press the case on Jargonaut harder is because I saw B_E as the better lynch. Why would I press a lynch on somebody who wasn't my top suspect, especially when there was support for a lynch of my top suspect?

[toolenduso]

Spoiler: Jargonaut

-Votes TSO in #67, second post of the game. Suggests TSO isn't partner.
-Then unvotes TSO for weak reasons when pressed by Cho in #209. Suggests partner, but I'd tip the balance in favor of TSO not being a partner because why vote for him in the first place that early instead of someone else?
-Votes Riptide in #316. This was the third vote on the Riptide wagon and it took 6 to lynch so she put Riptide at L-3. The only other vote was Egg's on Dunhamganger, so it didn't really have a competing wagon at the time. Could be bussing.
-Unvotes Riptide in #398 because she looked through their ISO and found that they didn't look as bad as she remembered without doing work. This was when the wagon had come down to only two votes, Jargonaut included. Fits into the bussing theory because Jargonaut may have panicked upon seeing that her partner was the early wagon with momentum, hopped on, then come back off. Weak reasoning supports that as well because it was shallow enough that it could have just been scum being lazy.
-#403 supports Riptide as a partner as well:

Also, I thought your working theory was that BE was my partner. Now I'm with Riptide?

...because I had only suggested that it was possible that she was partners with Riptide and she takes it as "he accused me of being partners with Riptide" -- this point's not the strongest because it could have also just been Jarg flailing and grabbing at anything to discredit my arguments
-#470, calls B_E scummy for not explaining his case against Riptide, when literally Jarg's whole Riptide case was "I agree with Cho." Almost seems like a Freudian slip.
-Only interaction with TBP is asking for a prod in #316 -- null.
-Doesn't interact with Dun slot much. When she does it's half null questions and half defending Dun. See #398 and #477 for defense.

Spoiler: Dunhamganger/SleepyKrew

-Dun doesn't interact a whole lot with Jargonaut, answers two innocent questions in one post.
-SK hops on largest wagon that's not him as soon as he joins the game (votes for B_E, is 3rd vote with 6 needed; wagon on him was at 4, so L-2). Generally this makes me lean scum, but B _E did look pretty terrible and he had reasoning, so this makes me lean more toward null.
-Tunnels B_E until he's lynched.
-Gets in an argument with BPC.
-#570/572, dodges attempt to get him to form read on BPC. This looks scummy to me because it denies information to town -- why not just say how he felt about BPC? The given reasoning is that the game was headed toward nighttime, which seems weak to me. What's the downside in just giving a read?
-Very little interaction with Jargonaut.

Spoiler: Riptide

-Gets on Cho wagon pretty early (#54, third vote with 7 needed I believe), so doesn't look too opportunistic. Provides plenty of reasoning, doesn't seem too weak. Nothing too scummy here IMO.
-Going to lengths of building case during night on Elyse does suggest town. Isn't an untouchable argument though -- case could have been developed solely to grab towncred and could have been developed after they said they'd written it. #440 lends some support to that theory. Overall, I'd give the edge to town on this one.
-Overall, very few interactions with Jargo despite being a pretty active player. That's a point in the scum category.

Spoiler: The Betting Pool

-Leans toward voting Cho in #76 (second post of the game from this slot) when Cho was at L-2. Doesn't vote Cho until 90 posts later (#164), putting Cho at L-2. Seems a little like scum cautiousness to me, but reasoning is solid enough when they do make the vote.
-Barely posts for the rest of D1 -- that seems scummy to me.
-Dun vote in #379 was a little weird, unexplained, and not really explained when I questioned it later on.
-Literally no mentions of Jargonaut from this slot until after she's dead.

VOTE: The Betting Pool

The extreme lack of interaction between the Jargonaut slot and the TBP slot is not a good sign, and neither was the lack of posting after voting Cho D1 or TBP's vote on Dun/dodging of explanation of why the vote was placed.

Second choice would be Sleepy, third would be Riptide.

Would like others to give their opinions on SK, TBP and Riptide as well.

Will go through ISOs of BPC, TSO and Egg next. I think they're all town (especially Egg and BPC), but you can never be too cautious. Elyse taught me that.

[toolenduso]

Do you think there was scum on the B_E wagon?

Well we already know there was at least one scum on the wagon, but yes -- I believe there was another. For reference, here's all the votes on the B_E wagon when he was lynched:

Vote Count 2.11

Burning_Earth

(6)

toolenduso,

MTD

, SleepyKrew, The Betting Pool,

Jargonaut

, BipolarChemist

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

B_E looked bad, I had already done a lot of legwork in building a case on him and he kept making himself look worse. I think it would be hard for scum to resist hopping onto that wagon.

[toolenduso]

Wait, are we massclaiming?

[toolenduso]

Spoiler: MnemonicDevice/BipolarChemist

Mnemonic did nothing that indicates alignment to me.

-BPC makes a pretty good entrance and appears to be scumhunting.
-The weirdness starts in #490, where he says B_E feels like lynchbait, but he has a scumread on him, but he might not be scummy.
-Gets in an argument with SK about waffling/scumminess/etc.
-#506/509, attacks SK's case against B_E.
-#512, says he doesn't think B_E is town.
-#555, says B_E is being scummy, but BPC has a bad feeling about the B_E lynch. Reiterates that B_E is scummy, but BPC might be wrong about B_E being scummy, but B_E should die anyway.
-#575, BPC hammers B_E and says B_E is buddying him and the conversation is going nowhere. Rubicon and TSO had already declared intent to hammer, so I just can't really think of a realistic scum motivation behind this hammer unless BPCscum just didn't care about the game that much and wanted to secure a mislynch and didn't care about his own slot anymore.

Spoiler: TSO

-#28, starts off by placing second vote on Cho.
-Pushes Cho wagon hard, getting more aggressive and frustrated as he does (see #51, #57, #123, #124 and #126), which reminds me of TSO's town game and seems different from his scum game. As town, I saw TSO get frustrated, angry and aggressively push people where he wants them to go. As scum, I saw TSO take his time, consider his options and play without putting himself in the spotlight.
-#119, big case against Cho.
-The rest of D1 was TSO pushing the Cho wagon. Again, in my experience with him that's more how he plays as town. As scum he tends to put himself in a less active role and leaves multiple options open for lynches.
-D2, TSO starts pushing B_E but doesn't vote (see #335).
-#365, dismisses my case against Jargonaut.
-#414, opposes Dunham wagon despite the fact that it's the largest wagon (4 votes at the time, with 6 needed, so L-2). Says Jargonaut would be town if forced to give read.
-#427, calls one of Jargonaut's posts strange. I could take TSO's interactions with Jargonaut as either town or scumpartner with equal plausibility -- the null-ness of TSO's read on Jargo is what I would expect from a partner, but his interactions with that slot don't look particularly different from his interactions with confirmed town slots like Rubicon and MTD.
-#554, states intent to hammer B_E. This was made one day after Rubicon declared intent to hammer. I have a hard time justifying this from a scum perspective too, especially since we know Rubicon is town. If TSOscum saw a townie willing to hammer a mislynch, why would he offer to do it himself?

Spoiler: Egg

-I'd do a more in-depth read of Egg's ISO if I thought there was any reason to doubt his claim, but scum fakeclaiming vig at this point would guarantee that they wouldn't live to the end of the game and there haven't been any counterclaims.
-So the only thing to report from Egg's ISO right now is that I didn't see any crumbs as to who he was going to shoot.

tl;dr -- I didn't really see anything that changed my mind about any of these people. Reads list, from most towny to most scummy:

Egg
BipolarChemist
TSO
Riptide
SleepyKrew
The Betting Pool

[toolenduso]

You're eliminating two candidates from your lynchpool because it wouldn't make sense for them to do what they did if they were scum (according to you).

So, to recap, you're saying that it doesn't make sense for me to treat Jargonaut's logical fallacy as null while treating TSO and BPC's actions toward the late-day B_E wagon as town.

Let me clarify for you: Town say dumb things and use logical fallacies all the time. So do scum. Therefore, when I weigh the likelihood that a logical fallacy came from scum versus town, it usually doesn't result in a clear read. It comes out null.

Meanwhile, I have a hard time justifying one side of the equation (the scum explanation) for BPC and TSO doing what they did.

What you did was simplify three separate actions into one phrase ("sub-optimal play") and make it sound like I was suggesting that one alignment can't do it and one alignment can. What I was actually saying was that two actions appeared scummier than a third, separate action.

Basically, you were straw-manning me.

You are correct in that I didn't notice. I wasn't paying attention to you/Jargonaut at all.
Running around asking people what they thought about something versus not saying anything at all is a false dichotomy

I've already argued against this point. I

was

saying things. I said lots of things. They were in my case against Jargonaut and my subsequent interactions with her. I either could have done that, or I could have run around asking other people what they thought of Jargonaut and my case against her, which doesn't make sense to do with a secondary scumread.

What other middle ground exists between approaching other players directly with my case and posting it with the assumption that other people would read it? It seems like you're accusing me of being scum because I didn't push other people toward scumreading Jargonaut, so maybe you could help me understand by telling me what you expected me to do instead?

The reason I didn't press the case on Jargonaut harder is because I saw B_E as the better lynch. Why would I press a lynch on somebody who wasn't my top suspect, especially when there was support for a lynch of my top suspect?

Pretty confident you wouldn't be killed eh

Again, my cases were there for everyone to read if I were to die.

You're straw-manning me, misrepresenting what I say and reaching. You haven't addressed any part of the rest of my ISO besides Jargonaut, you haven't given your reads and you've barely addressed anybody else in the playerlist since this day started. At this point I feel like you're trying to force a case by jumping to some ill-founded conclusion with most of what I'm saying, and that raises alarms for me.

[toolenduso]

Okay this is devolving into "no ur wrong" so I'm not addressing this unless someone besides tool asks me to

So you

do

understand wanting to end a dumb, pointless argument with someone you're scumreading.

Funny how that works out.

Don't pretend there isn't a huge connotative difference between "running around asking people" and "approaching other players directly with my case"

I see no difference between those two things.

So you're saying me not approaching other players directly with my case on Jargonaut makes me look like her partner?

OK, then, if that's the case then you should be able to point to posts in my ISO where I took my other cases to members of the town to try to convince them.

I'll wait.

See, I don't really take my cases to other people in the playerlist very often. And I feel like the fact that I didn't do it with my cases on people we now know are town (B_E, Cho) kind of proves that me not taking my case on Jargonaut to others in the playerlist doesn't mean I was doing it with some sort of special intent.

Again, my cases were there for everyone to read if I were to die.

And no guarantee that anyone would

I generally don't play with the assumption that I'll die during the next night phase. I feel like it's kind of silly to expect me to.

You haven't addressed any part of the rest of my ISO besides Jargonaut

Was I supposed to?

The fact that you didn't lends evidence to my suspicion that you looked around for the first reason you could find to lynch somebody without really taking the time to develop reads and consider your options.

you haven't given your reads

Was I supposed to?

The fact that you haven't lends further evidence to that suspicion.

you've barely addressed anybody else in the playerlist since this day started

Was I supposed to?

no that's just bullshit

Spoiler: SK's D4 activity

Posts attacking tool/pushing the case against tool: 585, 587, 596, 600, 604, 613, 653, 656

Posts talking about massclaim: 588, 591, 595

Posts asking questions to other players: 595, 596, 605, 606, 626, 653

Posts speaking with other players: 604, 609

Posts addressing the mod: 615

???: 652

Posts enumerating a read on anyone besides tool: N/A

Posts building a case on anyone besides tool: N/A

You've made 16 posts on D4. Eight were attacking me. Zero gave reads or cases on anyone besides me.

At this point I feel like you're trying to force a case by jumping to some ill-founded conclusion with most of what I'm saying, and that raises alarms for me.

I would hope someone trying to lynch you would raise alarms!

The act of somebody trying to lynch me doesn't necessarily raise alarms. Townies make mistakes. It's the way you're going about it that's making me suspicious.

I'd like to know your reads of the other players.

[toolenduso]

The difference is that Jargo said to stop in the same post that she made da fallacy, and you actually agreed, without even arguing about it

What I'm saying is that clearly you must know that there is a valid town explanation behind wanting to stop a stupid argument, even if it's with somebody you're scumreading -- because that's exactly what you just did. Now tell me why the way I did it makes the scum explanation more likely than the town explanation.

Do you have any examples from other games? Saying "I did the thing you're calling me scum for in the game you're calling me scum in" isn't a defense

That's not what I said. What I said was, "I've done the thing you claim I did because Jargonaut was my partner with other players in the game, including some who are now confirmed town."

If you really want me to do your meta work for you then sure, I'll look for examples. But I'm curious as to why you trust your top scumread to do so honestly.

The fact that you didn't lends evidence to my suspicion that you looked around for the first reason you could find to lynch somebody without really taking the time to develop reads and consider your options.

What a convincing rebuttal.

You've made 16 posts on D4. Eight were attacking me. Zero gave reads or cases on anyone besides me.

See above and below for reads. Not doing a case on anyone else because don't have any other cases. But let's look at what you originally said real quick

you've barely addressed anybody else in the playerlist since this day started

Far cry from

Posts talking about massclaim: 588, 591, 595

Posts asking questions to other players: 595, 596, 605, 606, 626, 653

Posts speaking with other players: 604, 609

Sorry if it came across unclear. By "addressed" I meant "given your reads on."

If you're a townie, isn't any attempted lynch on you ill-founded?

Of course. But that doesn't mean the person behind it is scum.

[toolenduso]

Leaning town on Riptide and BPC.

Why?

[toolenduso]

Reread the 661 quote

I assume you mean this:

The difference is that Jargo said to stop in the same post that she made da fallacy, and you actually agreed, without even arguing about it

So you've explained the difference between the two posts. Now tell me why the difference makes the scum explanation more likely than the town explanation that you have shown you not only understand, but embrace in your own play.

So you've been avoiding drawing attention to yourself all around instead of just that case. Cool.

This is called changing your argument to suit your existing bias.

And it might make sense for you to use that as an argument if you actually knew whether or not that's a behavior I engage in regardless of alignment. But you don't, so instead you're insisting that I'm scum because I didn't meet some arbitrary expectation you set up. Cool.

Still want those town examples.

Next post.

Sorry if it came across unclear. By "addressed" I meant "given your reads on."

By that definition, I hadn't addressed anyone besides you at all until my last post

Exactly. You've focused almost entirely on me. This is called tunneling.

So what makes my ill-founded case the illest (besides how sick I am)?

For these reasons:

You're straw-manning me, misrepresenting what I say and reaching.

And you also look scummy for these reasons:

You haven't addressed any part of the rest of my ISO besides Jargonaut, you haven't given your reads and you've barely addressed anybody else in the playerlist since this day started. At this point I feel like you're trying to force a case by jumping to some ill-founded conclusion with most of what I'm saying, and that raises alarms for me.

You haven't addressed any part of the rest of my ISO besides Jargonaut

Was I supposed to?

The fact that you didn't lends evidence to my suspicion that you looked around for the first reason you could find to lynch somebody without really taking the time to develop reads and consider your options.

you haven't given your reads

Was I supposed to?

The fact that you haven't lends further evidence to that suspicion.

Spoiler: Dunhamganger/SleepyKrew

-Dun doesn't interact a whole lot with Jargonaut, answers two innocent questions in one post.
-SK hops on largest wagon that's not him as soon as he joins the game (votes for B_E, is 3rd vote with 6 needed; wagon on him was at 4, so L-2). Generally this makes me lean scum, but B _E did look pretty terrible and he had reasoning, so this makes me lean more toward null.
-Tunnels B_E until he's lynched.
-Gets in an argument with BPC.
-#570/572, dodges attempt to get him to form read on BPC. This looks scummy to me because it denies information to town -- why not just say how he felt about BPC? The given reasoning is that the game was headed toward nighttime, which seems weak to me. What's the downside in just giving a read?
-Very little interaction with Jargonaut.

[toolenduso]

Do you have any examples from other games? Saying "I did the thing you're calling me scum for in the game you're calling me scum in" isn't a defense

These are games where I was town:

Micro 305: Field Day -- never asked anybody to comment on my case.

Mini 1541: The Heart of Artificial Reality -- never asked anybody to comment on my cases.

I'm still going through my other games, but I'll probably have at least one more.

Will answer TBP later.

[toolenduso]

More town games:

Micro 260: The X-Men -- I asked the rest of the people I thought were town in the game to go back over Nacho's ISO looking at the things I built my case on (post #728). However, this was done under duress and I was more frustrated than I've been in any other game on this site because of how long it was taking to lynch me when I knew it was inevitable and was very sure that town would lose.

Mini 1527: The Darkness Within -- In post #250, I ask: "Am I the only one who thinks it's scummy how uncomfortable kravhen is with two votes on him?" This is the only example I've found so far of me taking my case to other players under a circumstance close to the one in this game. Later in the game I push the case against Lark, but I consider that a different circumstance because it was based on claims and because I was forced into leading town so that they wouldn't lynch me based on my claim.

So basically, I do take my cases to other players sometimes. But it's usually under very different circumstances than this one, and even when I do -- I only do it for a select few of my cases, and I'm pretty sure I've never done it for a person who wasn't my top scumread.

Answers to SK:

Do you have any examples from other games? Saying "I did the thing you're calling me scum for in the game you're calling me scum in" isn't a defense

These are games where I was town:

Micro 305: Field Day -- never asked anybody to comment on my case.

Mini 1541: The Heart of Artificial Reality -- never asked anybody to comment on my cases.

In both of those, there were instances where you asked, unprovoked, "hey [person] what do you think about [scumread] and why?"
Just ran through your ISO in this game again and didn't see that wrt Jargonaut

That's not what you were asking me to look for. You were asking me to look for times when I presented my cases to people. The posts in question (#70 in Field Day, #227 in the mini, are both instances of me trying to get specific players to give a read on players they hadn't commented on yet. The fact that they were scumreads of mine was irrelevant in both cases -- my questions were meant to make the people I directed them at talk, not to get people on my side based on my case.

So you've explained the difference between the two posts. Now tell me why the difference makes the scum explanation more likely than the town explanation that you have shown you not only understand, but embrace in your own play.

sorry can you reword this?

There is a way to explain why I decided to stop my argument with Jargonaut that comes from a perspective of me being town, and there is a way to explain it that comes from a perspective of me being scum (a town explanation and a scum explanation). You have shown that you understand both explanations, because you've used the scum explanation in your case against me and because you demonstrated the town explanation when you decided not to answer something from me you considered dumb.

Why is the scum explanation more likely than the town explanation for what I did?

[toolenduso]

Why would scum hammer a wagon so popular that two other people claimed intent? It ends the day and they can't be held responsible because two other people were going to do it anyway.

Yeah but they could still avoid all risk by just staying away from it.

Are you scumreading TSO or BPC, or were you just playing devil's advocate here?

a claimed vig with no CC and a scum dead at night? Was there a moment where you thought it was possible he was scum?

In this game I question things, even if they make sense, because I have no way of being sure until a person's flip.

Tool-SK bores me to death, to be honest

tool, please tell me why you seemingly want to get into wall wars that only serve to annoy and distract the town?

If people really want me to stop walling then I'll try. But I don't want people falling for SK's case and mislynching me.

@Riptide: You addressed things related to walling to me a couple times, why didn't you address them to SK as well?

Done well, yes, I can definitely see it work. Overdo it and it'll get called out.

Rescind my BPC townread

So where does BPC fall for you now? And what about that quote made you rescind your townread of him?

@Egg
just a quick explanation of why you shot Jargonaut for prosperity's sake please

What are you trying to get out of this?

Just trying to cover my bases. You don't have to answer.

I don't understand why you asked if you didn't care about the answer.

[toolenduso]

SK's lack of giving reasons bothers me, movin' on up my scumlist! And this isn't totally OMGUS, just like 2% OMGUS.

Who would you say are your top two suspects right now? Has it changed from #673?

[toolenduso]

Still here. I kind of want to look over this again to see if the time away from the game changes my perspective at all. I'll be pretty busy this week though, so...not entirely sure when that will happen.

@TSO: What about the site downtime made you more paranoid?

[toolenduso]

Oh whoa the sites been up longer than I expected O.o I guess my phone was being weird yesterday.
For now I'm gonna make us

UNVOTE

1) because I decided TBP wasn't scum, and because the site crash made me extremely paranoid in the opposite way as TSO.

I don't really understand this post -- are you saying you're paranoid of people who are being active since the site came back? Because at the time you posted this, I don't think there was really anyone who had been "active" -- there still isn't much activity in this game.

And do you want to explain your thoughts on TBP?

As of yet I haven't seen anything to make me change my mind on that slot, including #716. Especially since deadline is so soon, I doubt my vote will change unless there's some compelling reason.

[toolenduso]

I'm here. Sorry about that, N.

I will have some more time to post tomorrow evening, but for now I'll just say that I am still planning on looking back over everyone's ISOs, especially now that deadline is suspended and we have more time.

@N: How much time are you going to add to deadline after a replacement is found?

[toolenduso]

Re-read:

TBP

-Comes across as semi-active. Not quite stepping into the spotlight and not quite lurking, but kind of just participating enough. That in itself is not scummy, but when you factor in the consistent participation in wagons it does begin to look like scum-motivated behavior.
-#323 also looks scummy. TBP says that B_E's hammer looks like town, but agrees that town should probably lynch B_E. Lynching somebody you think is town is always hard to justify, but the justification TBP provides ("it's a glaring point that will hurt town later if it's not resolved") is especially hard to swallow. Why would town want to lynch somebody they think is town without trying to convince other townies that the hammer didn't come from scum first? This looks like scum pushing town toward a mislynch while trying to avoid being blatant/inventing reasons to do so.
-Play has felt more genuine after being pressured/sitting at L-1 and L-2 for a while, but I don't place that out of the reach of capability for the players in the slot as scum.

BPC

-BPC's interactions with the playerlist upon replacing in seem pretty genuine to me. He pushed people, asked legitimate comments and applied pressure that looked like he was trying to move the game forward and not just score the easiest lynch.
-#490 strikes me as pretty town. I just feel like scum wouldn't want to discredit one of their own reads like that, especially when it's on a player who looks like they're headed for a lynch.
-Looking back on it, the waffling on B_E actually makes me lean more town. Again, it just doesn't seem like something scum would do. I feel like if BPC were scum he would have either committed to one read on B_E and stuck with it, or transitioned as subtly as possible -- not openly and transparently waffled back and forth and then dropped a hammer when he could have let somebody else do the dirty work for him. The waffling has a very plausible town explanation: wrestling publicly with a read because as town, you can't be sure until you see that player's flip.

Dun/SK

-Dun's play looked pretty awful to me but then I did my meta read on him and found out that he plays like that as town so now I don't feel so confident in reading dun. What I will say is that the voting pattern looked somewhat opportunistic (MTD -> Riptide sheep -> Cho sheep)
-#465 shows genuine effort to build a case on B_E, but it's not so well-done that I couldn't see it coming from SKscum.
-It's interesting how SK got in this extended argument with BPC without voting for him -- he's pointing out flaws (waffling, mainly), but not voting based on them. Or even really scumreading BPC for it. Which seems contradictory when you consider that in #613 he says he probably would have been all over Jargonaut had I pointed out the flaws in her posting.
-I also get vaguely towny vibes upon rereading SK's general interactions with other people -- I guess it just feels like his attitude of confronting people is town-motivated, but it's kind of hard for me to articulate fully why I think that.
-That being said, the way SK likes to vote somebody at the beginning of the day and then not budge doesn't sit too well with me. That part of his play leads me to believe that he's got a target in mind and lacks the towny paranoia to seriously consider other people.
-The case against me is still the thing that sits the worst with me in SK's ISO. It just feels like he was looking for reasons to scumread me without genuinely caring whether I really looked scummy for those reasons.

TSO

-My previously-articulated meta argument still stands.
-There is one thing that looks scummy to me in TSO's early D1 play, and that's his point that Cho including herself in her "unlynchables" list is scummy. That's just such a weak point to me that it looks like TSO was reaching for reasons.
-Post #119 and TSO's subsequent reaction to B_E's dismissal of his case reads as genuine to me.
-His interactions with other players read as genuinely trying to get reads to me; #634 is a good example of this.
-TSO has placed very few votes in this game (actually, I think the only vote he's made was on Cho), which has a solid scum explanation (grabbing towncred by avoiding mislynches) and a town explanation (being unsure of himself, decreased confidence after driving home the first mislynch). I guess if I had to choose which explanation seems more likely to me, it would be the town one -- it holds up with the overall arc of TSO's play. And again, he did attach himself to the B_E lynch even if he didn't actually vote for him, which seems towny to me because he could have just hung back and let Rubicon look scummy for hammering the mislynch.

Riptide

-It's not that this slot doesn't engage people -- they do. It's that the reasoning they use in their arguments just generally isn't very strong (see #78, 150, 405). That rings somewhat scummy to me, because having trouble offering genuine reasoning can be a symptom of scum not truly having genuine reasoning.
-The part about writing a case against Elyse during the night does strike me as town. It's actually kind of hard to reconcile that with Riptide being scum.
-I said it before, but #722 is weird to me. Was Rip saying they were paranoid of active people? Because, who was even active in the game when they posted that?

Egg

-Yeah, Egg is confirmed. No need to reread, really.

So that didn't really change my reads much but I'm glad I did it because I did notice a few specific things I didn't before. Looking forward to TBP's next posts.

[toolenduso]

Hey tool, what exactly are your reads? They're not really that clear to me.

I'm making it as Egg --> BPC ---> TSO ---> TBP ---> SK ---> Riptide, from T-S, but you should correct this.

Towniest to scummiest:

Egg
BPC
TSO
Riptide
SK
TBP

The reread was because I wanted to see if the time away from the game changed my reads at all, but it didn't really. TBP is still the player I feel most comfortable lynching.

Also, I don't remember your meta argument. Link me.

I feel like I've done it a few times, but #319 seems to be the most complete version.

The reason I said that my paranoia was in the opposite way as TSO's, I was saying that I was thinking everyone was town.

...you were paranoid of people being town? That doesn't make sense to me.

fferyllt's entrance seems quite towny, but it's also shown me that she's likely just a strong player all-around, which means it should be well within her capabilities to replace into a game as scum and look very towny. I'll want to look at some of her meta to get a better read, but I doubt I'll be able to before deadline. fferyllt, could you point me to some of your completed games where you replaced in?

[toolenduso]

But doesn't this meta show that I tend to play aggressively as town, which matches up with this game?

...yes. That's what I've been saying.

[toolenduso]

Anyone know N's mod-meta around scum day chat?

I've played one other N game (Mini 1505), and he gave scum an encryptor.

Going through ffery's meta now.

@HS: This post suggests to me that you're scumreading TBP:

Really, we're just calling you scum.

-HS

...when you earlier unvoted TBP and said you didn't think they were scum. What made you change your mind?

Also, could you answer this?

The reason I said that my paranoia was in the opposite way as TSO's, I was saying that I was thinking everyone was town.

...you were paranoid of people being town? That doesn't make sense to me.

[toolenduso]

OK so I went through the replace-in meta that fferyllt gave and read quickly through the first parts of her ISOs in those games, comparing them to what I've seen of her play here.

Newbie 1486: town

-scumhunting was irrelevant because she replaced into a slot where because of the gamestate she knew who scum was.
-similarity to current game is that she is very straightforward, honest and helpful. See post #812.
-interesting note: she didn't vote immediately, despite knowing for a fact who the scum was.

NY172: town

-Post #3003 reminds me a lot of her entrance into the current game. She came in and immediately started doing in-depth ISO reads.
-#3107 is also very similar.
-A little less of a desire to help other players shown in this one, which indicates that her entrances can vary upon replacing into a town slot.

Newbie 1403: scum

-way, way less driven upon replacing into this game than she is in the current game. No walls, and even though she does a read-through relatively quickly (that game was at 24 pages at that point, vs the ~30 in this game when she replaced in), she doesn't comb through ISOs or pick out fine details of each player's contributions. Rather, she makes vague-ish statements about their overall play and just generally seems less active and interested.
-She also doesn't vote very quickly upon replacing into this game, even though other players are asking why she hasn't voted yet.

Micro 231: scum hydra

-More similar to Newbie 1403 (where she was also scum) in that she didn't show nearly the same amount of drive in getting caught up, participating and forming reads/posting walls. However, there are some extenuating circumstances in that a) a mislynch went through pretty soon after her hydra replaced in and b) she was in a hydra, so it would make some sense for her to have a bit of a delay before posting a wall because she would have to run it by her partner.
-However, she didn't really do work during the night after that mislynch and when she finally did post it wasn't nearly the same amount of effort and attention to detail as she's shown in this game and the town games where she replaced in.

So, yeah, that meta makes fferyllt a more solid townread in my mind. She consistently played pretty much the same as she is here when she was town replacing into a game and consistently played differently when replacing in as scum. I mean, even the fact that she went out of her way to provide me with so many examples of her replacing into games and then delineating which were town, which were scum and providing a description of each game is indicative of her town play.

[toolenduso]

before I look at any teams I think it's only fair to admit that Riptide/TBP is my first pick. I'll try not to be biased, but no promises.

Could you explain why you think this?

I won't be awake when deadline happens, but I'll check before I go to bed, which will be an hour or so before deadline. I'm still most comfortable with a TBP lynch.

[toolenduso]

Going to bed in a couple minutes. I'd rather lynch TBP but I feel like that isn't going to happen unless somebody other than fferyllt is willing to vote TBP.

So what's it going to be?

[toolenduso]

Fferyllt, would you prefer a no lynch over a riptide lynch?

[toolenduso]

Have to go to bed now. So I'm going to stay where I am. If we lynch TBP, cool. If we no lynch...well, we still have Egg.

[toolenduso]

Average Anybody/VT.

So to summarize claims, here's where we are:

Egg - 1s vig
fferyllt - VT
TSO - 1s PGO
Riptide - VT
tool - VT

I'll have to mull those over for a while, and I also want to look back at voting patterns too. I'll post a summary for each slot when that's done (hopefully by the end of tomorrow).

@Egg: In #916, you say you didn't submit a kill, implying that you had another kill left after you already used one shot on Jargo. In #917, you claim one-shot. What's going on?

@TSO: Does your shot get used up if you activate it and nobody visits you during the night? And why didn't you activate it?

Ffery and Tool - If you guys were going to vote Jargonaut on day 2, what would your motivations be?

I'm guessing you're asking something along the lines of "if you had voted for Jargonaut, what would your reasons have been?" Which is a little bit of a weird question but I'll answer it the best I can.

There are a couple. One, because the way she unvoted TSO at the slightest pressure from Cho felt unnatural and signalled several possibilities for why she could have done so as scum. Two, because she engaged in wall wars with me without really having very good reasons to and it came across as overly defensive.

Riptide's reaction to my vote on TBP looked really, really town to me.

Could you expand on this a little?

[toolenduso]

Tool, I was playing WIFOM games with the scum but massclaim time is no time to continue that.

Ah, got it.

For those who want to know, the point I had when asking that recent question is that it can catch scum offguard if not ready. One of Tool/ffery would have struggle with a decent answer because they already knew Jargo was scum, therefore had to generate some reasoning for it/read back and try to figure something out.

This seems like a bit of a half-baked way to go about tricking scum and makes me wonder if it could have been a forced attempt to scumhunt in LyLo. Just kind of making a note of that now.

@T S O Here's how I "justify" your "crumb."-
You ask scum if they are paranoid of you.

You're misreading what he said. He asked me if I was paranoid of him. He referred to me as "the winning scumteam from the last game" because in the last game I was in with TSO, we were on the scumteam together and we won.

So no, TSO wasn't asking scum if they were paranoid of him.

How is that a crumb specifically for PGO? Because you used the word "paranoid"? It fits for any PR, if it can even be considered a crumb! A VT could say the exact same thing simply to mess with the scum team. And in a game with a Vig, a PGO is, from my POV, a safe claim. The Vig would be too scared to touch you, as would the scum team, which would perfectly justify you staying alive if you were a town leader.

-HS

Problems with these arguments:

1. The word paranoid can't be used to give a reasonable crumb for any role except PGO.
2. The whole point of a crumb is that it's supposed to be hard to find. So the idea that somebody would crumb such that a vig would be too scared to touch them doesn't make sense.
3. TSO's crumb looked like a legitimate question and not like a crumb, so I don't buy that he did it with the intention of people finding it before his claim.
4. This is a closed game, so there's no way I know of that TSO could have known from the start of the game that there would be a vig.

These are also half-baked arguments and wonder about the genuine motivation behind them.

All that being said -- I can actually see this being a premeditated plan for Riptide to bus TSO and then cruise to victory. I'll want to do scumteam analyses and see which of the teams on here makes sense. The possibilities are:

ffery-TSO
ffery-Riptide
TSO-Riptide

Offhand, the beloved princess was an extremely negative utility role. It's the most demoralizing role I've ever drawn as town. Town PGO is also negative utility, or at least pretty swingy, though as an active role it's better balanced. Vig is swingy. I think of it as negative utility mostly because of how vigilantes (including me) have done at finding scum overall in my games at MS. I think some designers agree with me, but I hesitate to call it a full-on negative utility role.

I consider setup spec to be one of the weaker parts of my game, but I don't understand why a PGO would be a negative utility role if the player has to activate it -- that seems to give a little more control as to who would actually die. That being said, I do see how it could result in negative utility for town. Basically what I'm saying is I don't see any setup spec reasons right now to either believe or disbelieve the claim outright.

HS doesn't believe TSO's claim at all. I'm trying to reason out why he would claim it as scum.

Because it fits with my claim.

How does it fit with your claim?

His reply is obviously bullshit, but I think he just fucking slipped.

See my response to Riptide's #966.

[toolenduso]

I don't agree with you, tool. That question was very obviously directed towards you, not scum. I won't let you pass it off that easily.

It

was

very obviously directed toward me. And HS very clearly didn't understand that. Hence why he said:

You ask scum if

they

are paranoid of you.

He used "they" because at the time you asked the question, all members of the scumteam were alive. So Riptide, thinking that you were asking a question to the scumteam for some reason, used the pronoun for multiple people.

[toolenduso]

Interactions between slots (

note -- to make the workload lighter, I used ctrl+F in ISOs, so this will miss some of the times when one player addressed another without saying some version of their name or quoting one of their posts

):

Spoiler: TSO

With Dun:
-#299, townreads Dun for "genuinely not giving a shit." This is a relatively easy reason to give for townreading someone and so I see it as a point toward these two slots being partners.
-#393, states opposition to Dun wagon without explaining why.
-#414, sheeps MTD's reasons for opposing the Dun wagon.
-#489, points to Dun being town for same reasons as before.

Thoughts: Some fairly partner-y looking stuff here.

With SK:
-#590, argues against SK's push against me.
-#639, includes SK in a pool of three players in which he says there is definitely one scum.
-#676, opposes SK's push against me and says he wouldn't count it as a townpoint for SK.
-#677, comes right out and says he's scumreading SK.

Thoughts: Looks decidedly not partner-y.

With fferyllt:
-#818, asks ffery what times she's usually on at. This indicates they aren't partners, because why wouldn't he just ask that in their ScumQT at night?
-#870, townreads ffery pretty quickly after she's replaced in. Then again, she was looking pretty towny.

Thoughts: ...hard to say. I could go either way on this one.

With Riptide:
-#215, gives a half-joking(?) townread to Riptide for backing his Cho case.
-#366, pushes for Rip to give their case on why Elyse was scum (this was after she got NK'ed), which could be an attempt to make his partner look town.
-#489, defends Rip's jump onto the Cho wagon.
-#592, pulls a post associating Riptide with Jargonaut (after Jargo's flip) and says it supports Rip being scum.
-#639, includes Riptide in a list of three players in which TSO says there is definitely one scum.
-#677, includes Riptide in his top two scumreads.
-#845, guesses at a Riptide/TBP team.
-#866, says he would vig Rip or TBP if he had the shot that night.
-#884, puts Rip as highest scumread, says interactions with Jargo looked forced.
-#915, says BPC NK supports Rip being scum.
-#919, popcorns to Riptide.
-#943, says he's almost certain Rip is scum.
-#969, points to what he thinks is a scumslip from Rip at the time.

Thoughts: Gradual arc goes from townreading Rip to scumreading them. It seems like TSO has been scumreading Rip for too long for it to make a whole lot of sense as a bus.

Spoiler: Dun/SK/fferyllt

With TSO:
(As Dun)
-#64, townreads TSO.
-#77, reiterates townread on TSO.
(As SK)
-#435, scumreads TSO in second post after replacing in.
-#653, asks questions to TSO about him asking about the vig shot in such a way that it seems like he's suspicious of TSO.
(As ffery)
-#824, says she doesn't think TSO is scum.
-#865, says it "worries" her that TSO is promising to do research the next game day.
-#879, gives ISO read of TSO. Among takeaways: TSO's argument about Cho including herself in her own unlynchable list was reaching, several other small things about his play were questionable, but overall she's leaning toward a townread on TSO.
-#924, popcorns to TSO.
-#967, posts a kind of defense of TSO's rolecrumb.

Thoughts: I would say the interactions here look partner-y, but SK's scumreading of TSO immediately upon coming in and continued scumreading of TSO make that harder to believe.

With Riptide:
(As Dun)
-#118, votes Riptide as a sheep.
(As SK)
-#435, scumreads Riptide in second post upon replacing in.
-#437 and #442, sort of questions the whole "Rip is town because they made a case against Elyse during the night" thing.
-#604, gives grief to Rip for not responding to his questions but responding to other people.
-#661, gives a townread on Rip; #664, says it's because of Rip's overnight Elyse case.
(As ffery)
-#798, gives early townread of Rip "based on Jargonaut's play" and excuses Rip's hydra dissonance.
-#824, reiterates townread on Rip.
-#855, gives an ISO read of Rip. Takeaways: One of Jargo's posts looks like she could have been coaching Riptide, several posts ping and some look town.
-#858, puts Rip at null and says she wouldn't want to lynch them that day.
-#879, lists Rip as least scummy in a list of three.
-#880, says she'll compromise lynch Rip if necessary, but prefers TBP lynch.
-#904, reacts to Rip's post as possible scumpartnering with TBP.
-#913, says Rip's reaction to her TBP vote looked really, really town. That was at the start of the current day. Leaves door open for crazy conspiracies pairing me and Rip as a scumteam.
-#963, dismisses Egg's question of "could ffery/Riptide be a thing?" Understandable, but the language seems to be a bit more...idk, defensive I guess, compared with other posts. That's just from memory, I haven't directly compared the language between her reactions to people accusing her of stuff. If there have even been that many.
-#965, says Rip is most likely scum remaining of all players.
-#986, reiterates Rip as top scumread.

Thoughts: Both SK and ffery's interactions with Rip look quite partner-y to me. SK started out giving Rip grief and then settled on them being town, while ffery started out townreading Rip then came out against them at the start of D5. Ffery's D5 scumread of Rip could've been a bus planned during the night. Dun's actions are a little harder to explain if this slot is partners with Rip. Ultimately, I'm suspicious.

Spoiler: Riptide

With TSO:
-#416, states open sheeping of TSO's Cho case.
-#683, asks TSO why he went from aggressive to mild after D1.
-#687, relates to TSO's feeling of being demotivated with the game because of mislynches/being wrong. Asks TSO a bunch of questions so TSO can get back into it.
-#761, asks TSO for a town game.
-#895, says if TSO ends D4 without voting they'll consider TSO to be scum.
-#922, puts TSO as top scumread without saying why.
-#953, HS doesn't believe TSO's claim.
-#966, weird misreading of TSO's crumb and shallow reasoning as to why it's not really a crumb.

Thoughts: Early interactions look partner-y, but this slot has been scumreading TSO for long enough that it's rather hard to believe it's a bus.

With Dun:
-#416, says they don't understand the Dunham wagon.

Thoughts: Very little.

With SK:
-Not really anything to report here.

Thoughts: Even less.

With fferyllt:
-#922, says one of {tool, ffery} has to be scum, but says they had townreads on both.
-#926, asks that weird question to me and ffery about why we would have voted for Jargonaut D2 if we had.

Thoughts: The interactions between Rip and all three incarnations of the ffery slot were very minimalistic. That makes me suspicious and points to partners.

On a scale of 1-10 (1=not likely; 10=likely), likelihood of...

TSO-ffery: 5
TSO-Riptide: 3
ffery-Riptide: 7

The ffery-Rip partnering has more to do with Rip's (lack of) interaction with the ffery slot throughout the game than it does with ffery's interactions with Rip. However, I think it's worth noting that ffery didn't really come out against Rip until after TSO and Egg had already stated (or implied) that they were looking at a Rip lynch for D5.

Boy...that kinda messed up my reads from before. I'm going to sit on this for a bit, look over my thoughts of those slots before and see if I still feel the same way given this analysis.

[toolenduso]

The ffery-Rip partnering has more to do with Rip's (lack of) interaction with the ffery slot throughout the game than it does with ffery's interactions with Rip. However, I think it's worth noting that ffery didn't really come out against Rip until after TSO and Egg had already stated (or implied) that they were looking at a Rip lynch for D5

I am too sleepy to think. I don't know what to make of the kill choice.

Riptide's reaction to my vote on TBP looked really, really town to me.

I had some crazy conspiracy theories going about tool and riptide during the night phase but I really don't know

. I wanted to hear what BPC thought of the last few posts of day 4. :/

My first post of day 5 kinda punctures your case.

My challenge is to figure out if this was a town oversight or not.

I noted that in my post:

(As ffery)
-#913, says Rip's reaction to her TBP vote looked really, really town. That was at the start of the current day. Leaves door open for crazy conspiracies pairing me and Rip as a scumteam.

I feel like the ultimate message of your #913 was that Rip looked like town to you because you start off by saying his action looked really, really town, then go on to qualify it by saying that you had (past tense) some thoughts about Rip being scum, but by the time you made the post you weren't sure anymore.

I realize I also said this in my post:

Thoughts: Both SK and ffery's interactions with Rip look quite partner-y to me. SK started out giving Rip grief and then settled on them being town,

while ffery started out townreading Rip then came out against them at the start of D5. Ffery's D5 scumread of Rip could've been a bus planned during the night.

Dun's actions are a little harder to explain if this slot is partners with Rip. Ultimately, I'm suspicious.

That

was an oversight. I wrote the bolded part from memory, then reviewed my post and summarized at the end with a clearer picture and forgot to update the part I've quoted.

Also, I'm having an even harder time believing Rip and TSO can be partners now that they're voting each other.

[toolenduso]

...and? we lynch him today, we worry about his partner tomorrow.

Of course, you would push that off untiil next day because there won't be a next day if I'm lynched. Town will lose, and you and your buddy will win.

I don't understand this at all. Why is it any more likely for scum to say that than town?

That being said, TSO, I am interested in hearing who you think is Rip's partner.

It's all tied up in your confidence. If TSO is town, then his vote on you sets town up to lose. You apparently didn't even entertain that as a possibility. Same with your vote of T S O if you're town.

You have more research to do looking for the other scum, but you have a vote down that if you're actually going to do more research, the result could change your mind.

These are very good points and I'd like to hear Riptide address them.

But directionally I think this points to at least one of you being scum. If it's a tvt cross vote game-over is basically set up.

I think we're past that possibility, scum would have hammered by now.

Yeah I meant it makes me worry he might be town. There may be an ounce of confirmation bias there on my part though because I had him as town all game.

Who did you have as scum?

Cho, The Betting Pool, Jarg, and your slot.

You got one right! The one that mattered at the time.

Why did you ask that question, fferyllt (the one in #1008)?

I would hope Egg and Tool would read it as well, but I know how enthusiastic ffery is about her research.

I'll take a look through them, but I don't see how those games are really good comparisons. One, they're on a different site where I don't know how they run the games and how that might influence scum play. Two, you weren't a hydra in those games (were you?). Three, your experience in all those games seems to be significantly different from how this game has gone.

[toolenduso]

Why did you ask that question, fferyllt (the one in #1008)?

In part, I wanted to see if his answer mapped well to what he'd posted earlier.

I guess I just don't understand why that matters if Egg's clear.

Yeah I think scum would have quickhammered by now so one of TSO/Riptide has to be scum. I'm pretty much ready to vote Riptide. Ffery and Tool, what do you think?

I'm going to look through the games too, and I do want to see the results of Riptide's research. Waiting won't hurt, we still have a week before deadline.

[toolenduso]

Actually, if Ffery or Tool thinks I'm scum, one of them should vote me first. If you vote me now, scum will most certainly quickhammer. If scum votes me now, then I have the scum team figured out.

The message I take away from this is that anyone besides Egg who votes you is scum. I don't understand how that makes sense from RipTown PoV, because both myself and fferyllt have leaned/outright stated we think you're scum. Since you're convinced TSO is scum, it doesn't make sense that both me and ffery could be scum as well.

Actually, the more I try to wrap my head around that post, the less I understand what you're saying from a town perspective.

[toolenduso]

Actually it doesn't make sense from a scum perspective

or

from a town perspective. Rip, could you re-word that post or something? I'm really confused.

[toolenduso]

Thoughts on 3dice's offsite meta:

Hunger Games:
-Overall a lot more lurky in that one than in this one, but then he's in a hydra here so there's another person around to post so that would make it more likely for this account to post more regardless of alignment. Also, scum getting taken down a lot faster in the Hunger Games than in this one could have affected his level of posting.
-Busses his partner (Galladeava) after his partner voted him.
-Posts his first big case in #432, in which he lays out why thiago is scum. Some of this actually reminds me of his cases in this game in that the points tend to be shallow and/or half-baked. This line in particular:

"Funny how I am now called scum because I was lurking. No reasons for me being scum before though. Things to note though is that I was busy during part of this game, just as you were Thiago, so that might be the lurking you are thinking of. That or me playing a more calm level."

Reminds me of some of the arguments that have come from Rip in this game. Unfortunately a lot of the time I don't know which head of the hydra posted them so I don't know whether it's 3dice acting like his scum meta or HS acting like 3dice's scum meta.

Tom Riddle:
-A little less lurky in Tom Riddle, but your activity mostly seems to pick up after people start being suspicious of you.
-Overall, your posting style in Tom Riddle reminds me a little more of the current game. You are a bit more aggressive than you were in Hunger Games and more willing to argue with people, it seems (examples: #71, #138, #164). Early-game examples in this game: #54, #141, #210.
-I guess the main thing I take away from this game is that dice is capable of adopting different playstyles as scum. Ultimately, that serves to make me doubt the validity of using this meta to influence my read on him even more.

Werewolf VII:
-He barely posts at all until I think page 16, so...super lurky, at least at first.
-#452, votes for a person that at least four other people had just voted for (SoldiersSpirit), not sure how close to lynch that puts him. He sheeps one of the reasons of a person who just posted a massive wall to vote for SS, which reminds me a little of Rip's vote on Cho.
-Defends a couple players from other people's attacks (players who aren't his partners), which he has done a little in this game (#78 with MTD, #416 with Dun.)
-I stopped reading after page 46 because I felt like I wasn't going to get much more out of the game anyway and it was long as hell.

Interestingly enough, I did notice a commonality between all three of those games and this one, and that's dice making some sort of excuse for not posting very much and/or not doing much research/work on the game. In Hunger Games and Tom Riddle, the excuse was school/finals/homework. In Werewolf VII, it was being sick. In this one, it was studying for a test and generally being busy.

Not sure if that actually makes me think he's scum any more than before, because for all I know that's just a playstyle/personality thing. But it does make me wonder just a little bit if it could be related to alignment.

But that's not a strong point and I really have a hard time trusting the meta provided anyway because:

1. It's on a different site where there are probably different ways of doing things that could influence the way people play.
2. The circumstances in the first two games were significantly different to this one.
3. He wasn't in a hydra in those games.

So...that didn't really change very much for me and it certainly didn't make me think Rip looks any townier.

[toolenduso]

no, tool, he's just scum.

Can you explain why RipScum would post that?

[toolenduso]

No, I never said that. Hell, even at the end I said that I wish scum would vote me, so I can figure out the scum team and this game will be easier. I want whoever is town out of you to hold onto your vote.

You didn't say you wished scum would vote you, you said:

Actually, if Ffery or Tool thinks I'm scum,

one of them should vote me first

. If you vote me now, scum will most certainly quickhammer. If scum votes me now, then I have the scum team figured out.

Which says to me that you don't know which one of us is scum but you want one of us to vote you.

I guess I misread it/you worded it poorly, but the way you explained the post just makes me think now that it basically means nothing. Kind of like saying "I wish scum would just tell me who they are."

So that clears that up. As for your thing about how TSO's reaction makes him look scummy...you've been latching onto everything he's said since pretty much the beginning of D5 and it's clearly become confirmation bias, so it doesn't really sway me too much.

Same goes for TSO -- I feel like most of his posts today have been tunnelling on Rip.

TSO, I'd like to hear who you think is Rip's partner.

Rip -- do you still think you're going to post your ISO reads/thoughts on who TSO's partner is today?

[toolenduso]

Can you explain why RipTown would post that? Can you explain why RipTown would attempt to goad scum into voting him when literally everyone thinks he's scum and Town would then be a vote away from losing? He's barely even fighting his lynch, he hasn't posted in days.

I can't really explain his post from either alignment, that's the problem.

Who do -you- think is Riptide's partner?

I feel like fferyllt is the more obvious choice, but I'm starting to get paranoid based on you and Rip's play today that it could be a designed bus. If I were to vote right now for a Rip partner, it would probably be for fferyllt.

@Tool - The main point of me posting my meta was to show you guys my inexperience as scum, and how uncomfortable I am as scum because of that lack of experience. While I don't know if it really showed you an accurate comparison of this game, it at least showed you some of my habits as scum,

The thing is, though, I didn't find any really consistent differences between those games and this one.

but it also shows you how much time I have had to develop my confidence as town.

How does it show me that?

Also, the point about hydra is kind of null because it has been mainly me this game.

Maybe like 60% you, but HS has done plenty and there's also a significant number of posts in your ISO where I don't know if it's you or HS. The hydra makes things different because:

1. It means that there are two heads to post, meaning it's harder to compare activity levels between games.
2. Your partner will almost certainly be influencing you in your hydra chat outside the game.

I swear tool, if you use that argument that I post that I'm busy as scum, you will piss me off on new levels. People tried to use that argument against me in one game, and I was town, and it was the stupidest thing I have ever seen.

You being pissed off is no concern of mine. And it's not exactly a central point either; the ultimate point of my post was that I didn't get a whole lot of solid indication from your meta.

[toolenduso]

Hey tool. What do you think about the possibility of ffery/TSO?

It's definitely possible, but SK's interactions with TSO make me hesitate to believe it. There's not a whole lot in their interactions that look all that partner-y to me. I think ffery-Riptide is more likely.

[toolenduso]

Oh, I totally forgot this started again.
I agree with T S O's above point on Dunham.
Also I didn't have Riptide as scummy on D1, but I will look back at them later.

I did look into tool

and am not sure what to think. He got onto the Cho wagon at a pretty convenient point and after that didn't engage her at all. On the other hand he seemed to be genuinely trying to figure out Dunham...
@tool: How about that readlist?
@Rubicon: Care to explain why Elyse dying makes Ripscum more probable?

Is this an innocent crumb on Tool. MTD was gunsmith.

Well...I guess it's possible. He kinda sheeped some of my reads after that. I just don't know why he wouldn't come right out and say he was townreading me if he wanted to crumb a result.

[toolenduso]

1) Votes - In 3 out of the 5 games, TSO died early. Even considering that, TSO has more votes in each town game than in this one. Voting is one of the most useful tools to townies and this game TSO has been quite conservative with his vote. Why would Town do that?

This is a decent point and something that kinda bugged me about him. That said, TSO provided a counter-example, and this isn't exactly a knock-out piece of evidence. If there were several more little pieces of evidence like this then maybe I would reconsider, but when I weigh this against the rest of my research and my thoughts on the game, it's not enough to make me change my mind.

2) Early death - This isn't that strong of a tell, but TSO is viewed as a very strong player, so much so, he was nightkilled night 1 in two of his meta games and night killed night 2 in one of them. With the super strong start that TSO had, you would think he would be a prime target for scum, but somehow he hasn't been night killed yet. You can argue how this is WIFOM, and I guess this is in some ways, but TSO not dying was something that was bugging me earlier on in this game as well.

I don't think this really means anything. I pretty much agree with what ffery said about why players die early -- it's really dependent on the game. In some town games I've been killed N1 and in some I've been left alive until LyLo. In the case of TSO in this game, I don't know why scum would have wanted to kill him; he was one of the biggest drivers of the D1 mislynch and I do think it's fairly likely they have an investigative role because of the number of PRs they've NKed, so it makes sense that after the first day or two their kills would be driven by investigation results rather than who they thought looked towny or who they were worried would call them out.

In the game I played with TSO where I was scum and he was town (Guyett's Paranoid Geology Trip), the scumteam was wary of him pre-game but he actually became a pretty alluring mislynch target and he got lynched D2.

So, this point doesn't really influence me.

[toolenduso]

Well I guess we're not getting that analysis from Dice.

Shroomish, are you still planning on posting research? And are you staying in the game?

[toolenduso]

Egg, what are your thoughts right now?

[toolenduso]

Tool, I'm more interested in your thoughts than you should be in mine. But things haven't changed since my last stretch of posts.

I'm interested in your thoughts because you're the only confirmed town and I think it's helpful to know where the only confirmed town player in a game stands.

As for my thoughts, I've seen nothing to sway me from seeing Riptide as the most likely scum of the remaining players. They (or is it just "he" now?) talked repeatedly about doing research and used that to avoid giving out information. Then they basically said they weren't going to post that research, which could either mean that they never did it or they did it but don't want to for some reason. There's no way for us to know which is true, really.

I'm not saying Dice doesn't have a legitimate reason for dropping out of the game, but I find the responses from both heads during this day have been more indicative of scum than town. It became obvious early on that the remaining town pretty much supported a Riptide lynch, and I don't think it's out of the question that the scumteam could have guessed that Rip was screwed and planned a bus during the night phase. So Rip put up a little bit of a fight, but not much, because their partner is looking to get towncred for the bus.

Also, nothing has changed from the conclusions I came to after doing my research.

I mean, I want to allow time for everybody to get their thoughts in before the day is over, because I think that's valuable. But we're approaching deadline, TSO doesn't seem to have much more to say, it seems like you're saying you don't have much more to say, and ffery is V/LA.

So I'm debating over whether it would be better to just vote now.

[toolenduso]

I... You're kidding tool. Once. Maybe twice was there a mention of doing research. There was in no way an avoidance of information.

Try seven times.

Spoiler: Riptide's D5 promises to do research

I will probably do some sort of VCA to help narrow things down more, but I really need to think about these two.

I'm not entirely sure yet. I want to read more in depth in TSO's reactions with you and Tool. I'd also like the opinion of my other head too.

Or maybe I'm just confident? I understand I'm being scum read by everyone alive and that town will lose if I'm lynched, but this is not the time for me to spas out about how I am town. This is time for me to take some time and show you everyone the reactions between TSO and Ffery and Tool, so that you will realize TSO is actually scum.

That being said, I'm not entirely sure when the ISOs will come. I hope by tomorrow, but if not, it will probably be more like Sunday because I'm busy Saturday.

Phone post - Wish I had time discuss and respond, but I won't have time until Sunday. (I think HS is working on some research)

Well then, I'm sorry I wasted your time. Hopefully my ISOs will be a lot more telling of my town win condition.

I don't even know what token resistance is, but I have posted several times I'm going to start working on ISOs, so this point is crap.

Scum hasn't quickhammered, so it is obvious TSO is scum. The results of my ISO will make me sure on the 2nd scum.

At a certain point, it becomes avoiding giving out information because it means you don't have to answer questions like "who is TSO's partner" with evidence, and when people accuse you of putting up "token resistance" you can say "well yeah but I have research coming so no I'm not" and then not deliver the research.

And tool of course it's better to vote now. Cause I just fuvking realized that unless ffery comes back in the next 24 hours town is fucking screwed because the scum team is probably you(tool) and TSO. Fuck.

This looks very much to me like you calling me scum for no other reason than that I think you're scum. Which doesn't make sense from town-Riptide's POV given that ffery also thinks you're scum.

The only way I can think of for that to make sense is if you and ffery are partners.

[toolenduso]

VOTE: Riptide

[toolenduso]

I know Riptide already voted for himself, but that was so scummy it deserved a second hammer.

[toolenduso]

Nope.

[toolenduso]

...

[toolenduso]

I'm not going to assume anything until the flip

[toolenduso]

Where is that quote from, TSO?

[toolenduso]

Holy crap, MTD got a result on me?!

Wow, I am lucky that I made it through this game.

@Sleepy: Your case on me wasn't as terrible as I was saying. You were right that my interactions with Jargo weren't genuine, because they weren't. In the mafia thread you'll see that we did plan to end the conversation, so in that sense it may have come across a little less naturally than if we had just let it played out. I guess I was afraid that town would eventually take notice and draw something from it, which now seems a little silly because that was half the point anyway -- to organically distance ourselves from each other.

The main part of your argument that didn't work was in pointing to how I didn't try to convince other people. That seems to me to be more of a play style thing and I was able to capitalize on that.

So yeah, you did a good job in finding me but maybe the message got garbled a little bit.

@Jargonaut: Not bad at all for a first scum game! Obviously since I knew you were scum it's going to be hard for me to give you good feedback, but the one thing I think I can offer in the way of constructive criticism is just to say that the vote off TSO came across as kind of weird just because it was sudden and didn't seem to be prompted by much. As a rule, I've noticed that unvoting without voting somebody else tends to draw suspicion. Not always, but often enough that I try to avoid doing it as any alignment.

@ffery: I thought the amount of effort you put into this game upon replacing in was awesome. It honestly made the game more enjoyable, and you'll see in the mafia thread that we were scared you would figure us out.

@TSO: tool + TSO scum bros 4 evah!

[toolenduso]

@Egg: I'd be interested in hearing why you shot Jargo, actually. I think that would probably be the best constructive criticism she could get. Or did you already explain somewhere?