Mini 1568: Another Awesome Alliteration Adventure (over)

[Jargonaut]

VOTE: Burning_Earth for not using a space.

[Jargonaut]

Wow, I guess I really need to be more vigilant about keeping up with this game than my first two. Hopefully when I check back tomorrow morning I won't have to digest 3 pages at once again!

I am 100% confident that Cho, Elyse, and mnemonicdevice are Town for their votes.

As a result, Cho, Elyse, and mnemonicdevice are exempt from much of my suspicion for today, provided that they don't royally fuck up, of course!

The fact that you keep including yourself in your own town reads is giving me the heeby jeebies. It feels like a sort of sneaky tactic to get those who agree with you on other points to agree with you on your own town-ness as well. Also, I really don't get how you can read Mnemonic as anything seeing as he has only made an RVS post...
---------------------------

TSO is making me uncomfortable. I don't know much about how he usually plays, but I had a game with him a little while back where he used a similar sort of hyper aggression as scum. These posts in particular stand out to me:

Hang this, thanks.
When she flips scum I'm conftown, by the way.

Well, it's a textbook scum response, because it's really vague with no specifics, but its grandeur suggests I have been roaring to all the players since I came in about my incredible amount of

swagger

towniness. The only problem is I haven't.

VOTE: TSO. Why are you trying so hard to look town?

Bad semantics-based wagon is bad.

TSO feels town.

For clarification, you think that TSO's vote is bad, but is coming from a town mindset? Have you played with him as town before? (I'm asking because I want to know if this is how you think he acted)

Everyone who is voting Cho needs to stop. He's obviously newbtown. Come on. What scum (with a joindate last week) would automatically eliminate two players from the lynch pool? I agree that it's unreasonable to call people unlynchable for RVS only, but I don't see how it makes him scum at all. TSO looks to be jumping on newbtown and I think he's smarter than that, so I'm scumreading him too atm.

What exactly about Cho's play makes them seem like a newb? I can't imagine a newb would be so bold and throw themselves into the spotlight so purposefully.

[Jargonaut]

Bad semantics-based wagon is bad.

TSO feels town.

For clarification, you think that TSO's vote is bad, but is coming from a town mindset? Have you played with him as town before? (I'm asking because I want to know if this is how you think he acted)

1. Yes. (He's scanning as overzealous right now, and the way that's manifesting is striking me as more likely to be from town than scum.)
2. No. (So I'll keep the fact that you played in a game where he was scum like this in mind, though I detest meta reads.)

Well it's only one game, thus why I asked if you had a counter example in mind. That said, meta isn't the sole reason I'm voting him (his posts feel somewhat artificial even without it).

[Jargonaut]

TSO is making me uncomfortable. I don't know much about how he usually plays, but I had a game with him a little while back where he used a similar sort of hyper aggression as scum.

Which game was this? Have you checked other games of mine as scum? Do they correlate with this one game? What are the similarities between that games and this one?

It was Newbie 1473. Like in this game, you told everyone that you were "confirmed town" (only in that game it was after claiming, not during speculation). You also basically tunneled a single person straight out of the gate. It's worth mentioning that he (pisskop) even mentioned how you were trying to look town with your hyper-aggressive style:

...

Watch how prickly he is here. Scum would buddy Smudger in this situation, but you can see he doesn't actually like Smudger and has no problem admitting it and taking heat for it. And that's Town as fuck.

I don't think you have a case. Its all nonsense smothered in aggression. Exactly how our first game was.

But no... I haven't looked at your other scum games.

These posts in particular stand out to me:

Hang this, thanks.
When she flips scum I'm conftown, by the way.

Well, it's a textbook scum response, because it's really vague with no specifics, but its grandeur suggests I have been roaring to all the players since I came in about my incredible amount of

swagger

towniness. The only problem is I haven't.

VOTE: TSO. Why are you trying so hard to look town?

Well, the first post is me stating openly I'm going to consider myself conftown when Cho flips scum, and the second is me explaining how Cho's reason for voting me is scummy. I'm not particularly trying to look Town in either of them, Jargonaut, so you might have to try a little harder.

The first post definitely sounds much more like you're trying to tell us that you

will be

confirmed when she flips scum. In the second, you once again directly refer to yourself as towny, as if you're trying to make everyone think you are too.

[Jargonaut]

I looked at some of your town games, and to be honest, you play fairly aggressive most of the time. I'm retracting the meta part of my argument. That said, you're still my biggest suspect, so I'm keeping my vote on you.

[Jargonaut]

Didn't like Cho's most recent post but I don't know if it's necessarily scummy.

VOTE: Riptide

Haven't really liked anything this slot has produced.

What in particular stands out to you? I don't think you've said much about them yet.

[Jargonaut]

Someone please engage me. Apathy is starting to infect me.

TBP - Do you have any other thoughts besides on Cho?

- Dice

Uhhh, I think Elyse is voting you bruh. Is that not incentive to reply to her?

[Jargonaut]

On a related note:

Jargonaut

, why is

your

vote still on T S O? You haven't mentioned him

I don't particularly like your posts either, looking at your ISO.

You had one important point about T S O's meta. Then quite a while back in post 87, you actually said

"I'm retracting the meta part of my argument."

But thn you immediately follow that up with

"That said, you're still my biggest suspect, so I'm keeping my vote on you."

It looks scummy to me in that most of your argument for T S O being scum stemmed from your meta read, but in that post it feels like you're scrambling for a reason to stay on the wagon.

You haven't mentioned or addressed T S O since.

158 is asking for Elyse to say what stands out about Riptide.

172 just feels awkward and much too detached.

What I'm getting here is a lot of evenly-spaced posts to look active, yet simultaneously remaining very detached from the main conversation regarding my wagon and from the game in general. In fact, those last two posts are just focused on whatever's going on between Elyse and Riptide. Sure, you're occasionally instigating conversation between them or from them regarding each other, but what is your actual stance on it?

I never said meta was the biggest part of my argument against TSO. However, seeing as a lot of people have stated that he plays in a similar manner all the time, I'm doubting whether my initial read was very good.

So actually, you're right in that my vote on TSO doesn't make a lot of sense anymore.
UNVOTE:

Oh, and I asked Elyse that question because she's my strongest town read at the moment, and I honestly cannot read hydras at all yet.

I'll try to find some more time tonight/tomorrow to read ISOs, because I've been checking from my phone for the most part and I think I've missed a lot.

[Jargonaut]

Ok.

I thought confirmation bias is when people pick out certain things that confirm what they think is true and ignore what doesn't support their idea. So I think that makes them town actually.

This is correct... TSO what exactly are you saying? I think Cho was saying that

you

are suffering from confirmation bias against

her

.

I think what MTD is saying about the "contradiction" is definitely correct. That is, it doesn't exist. How MTD phrased it is very clearly what she said if you look at the post:

a)

I really want to bring myself to scumread him

i)

but I reluctantly think he is town for the blind aggression

1)

and yet I am also leaning toward scumreading him because I know he can be hyperaggressive to form a façade of towniness when he is scum.

a)

T S O is a

null

leaning

I-hope-you-are-scum

read for me.

[Jargonaut]

Uh, what exactly is your case on Riptide? They answered your points a while back in 148, and I don't think you've said much else about them being scum.

[Jargonaut]

Didn't see the end of last page. I'll respond to Rubicon whenever I get back online. Busy day.

Oh, and I'm also debating whether or not I should vote Riptide. Partially because I'm kind of tired of their misrepresentative attacks on me, partially because it's the biggest wagon besides mine. Any thoughts? Would you call me out as scummy for being survivalistic, or are Town not allowed to want to avoid guaranteed mislynches?

Bye.

So you find Riptide scummy for their arguments against you? Isn't TSO making the same arguments?

Also, FYI that last Cho vote put her at L-1.

[Jargonaut]

If at is exactly why I put it in my last post that Cho was at L1. If Cho is scum then BE is basically cleared at least.

[Jargonaut]

Whoops phone typos. That should be 'That is exactly...'

[Jargonaut]

To be honest, an accidental hammer could come from either alignment, couldn't it? I don't think lynching you for it is a good idea. Though, the flip flop

I'll have to look over Elyse's and Cho's posts again, but for now, FOS Riptide due to what I remember of their interactions yesterday.

[Jargonaut]

Whoops, I can't proof read worth crap on my phone, it seems :p

I meant to say that the flip flop was weird. Care to explain it in more depth now?

[Jargonaut]

@tool
1. a. I responded to the part about weird play
b. I'm really not sure why having two confo townies on our wagon contributes to our being scum. Was actually gonna let dice take this one but w/e
2. I can't find it. Care to quote it?

I think this is what he's referring to:

I've been letting Gaiden do most of the interactions in this game since I wanted him to become a better player, but I will not tolerate downright VI activities coming from this hydra.

The end of 303 by Riptide is extremely town. Think about it. As scum, they'd be lying about having that conversation last night. Where is the from doing that?

I don't get it. Why wouldn't scum say that? It seems null to me.

Also, can we get a prod on Betting Pool? Or is it too early since we just started a new day?

I'd also like to see your readslists, tool.

For now, VOTE: Riptide based on Cho's case on him.

[Jargonaut]

Oh, and what about mneumonicdevice? For some reason I'd been thinking that Rubicon replaced him, not Caled.

[Jargonaut]

The end of 303 by Riptide is extremely town. Think about it. As scum, they'd be lying about having that conversation last night. Where is the from doing that?

Fair enough, I see your point.

Spoiler: Jargonaut

The combination of this post (which is in reference to TSO):

I looked at some of your town games, and to be honest, you play fairly aggressive most of the time. I'm retracting the meta part of my argument. That said, you're still my biggest suspect, so I'm keeping my vote on you.

And this post (which is in response to Cho):

I never said meta was the biggest part of my argument against TSO. However, seeing as a lot of people have stated that he plays in a similar manner all the time, I'm doubting whether my initial read was very good.

So actually, you're right in that my vote on TSO doesn't make a lot of sense anymore.
UNVOTE:

Seems suspicious to me though. It almost seems like Jargonaut was waiting for an excuse to unvote TSO so she could go hop on a more viable wagon (that post was made when Riptide was at L-3 and Cho was at L-2. To be fair, Jargonaut

didn't

vote anybody else before the end of the day, but then she didn't need to in order for Cho to get lynched.

This actually fits in pretty nicely with my theory that B_E hammered because he's a goon and he'd rather make himself look scummy than have a scumpartner with a PR do it. If either Jargonaut or B_E were to flip scum, I would be looking at the other.

If I were scum waiting to unvote TSO so that I could hop on another wagon, I would have actually:
A. Just unvoted in the first post since no one else was voting TSO anyway, and my explanation for unvoting would have made just as much sense in the first post as in the second if it were fake.
B. Gotten on another wagon. Without me having done this, your case doesn't make much sense.
For me being so far down on this list of yours, you really don't have much going for the read. I'm not sure if it's just because you think it fits with your BE read or what, but it's very flimsy. I don't really remember much from your Day 1 interactions, so you've earned yourself spot #1 on my "ISOs to read" list, because this post was weird.

Tentatively think B_E's reaction to realizing he accidentally hammered, and his first couple posts today, feels town.

I'm thinking similarly.

VOTE: dunhamganger

Is this because of Egg's reasoning, or do you have anything to add to it?

[Jargonaut]

@Tool: I'm referring to the first and second posts of mine that you quoted in your reads list.

Where is the logic behind me waiting to unvote TSO so that I can vote someone else, but then not actually knowing who to vote? Doesn't the idea of me wanting to vote someone else imply that I have someone else in mind to vote?

This while scenario is convoluted, and it seems like you are just trying to make something seem scummy when it isn't.

[Jargonaut]

@Tool: I'm referring to the first and second posts of mine that you quoted in your reads list.

OK, so to recap, you're saying if you wanted to unvote you would have just done it in that first post I quoted where you said you were retracting the meta part of your argument.

Fair enough, but that's exactly what makes me suspicious. Why wouldn't you have just unvoted then?

You'll notice that between my posts 87 and 209, multiple people said that TSO's play at the time was similar to his town meta. I hadn't really thought about TSO for a while after reading those posts, so when Cho's post reminded me of my vote on him, I decided it no longer had merit.

Where is the logic behind me waiting to unvote TSO so that I can vote someone else, but then not actually knowing who to vote? Doesn't the idea of me wanting to vote someone else imply that I have someone else in mind to vote?

No, because scum have no genuine town motivation behind voting for somebody. So it would make sense for scum to want to vote for somebody else but not be sure who.

The fact that you don't seem to understand that actually makes me feel a little better about your slot though because it suggests you don't understand how scum would see things. Not enough to make you a townread, but it makes you a little less suspicious.

It would be helpful for me if I could see your scum games. Could you provide links?

I'm not sure how that emoticon got in my post... for a second I thought you added it to point something out in the quote. That's really weird.

Anyway, you said that I was waiting to unvote TSO so that I could "hop on a more viable wagon." The key word here is

waiting

. If I were

waiting

to hop on a new wagon, wouldn't that imply that I already wanted to get on a new wagon and thus had a wagon in mind to get on? If I'm

waiting

to do something, why wouldn't I do it?
You also haven't explained to me why it makes sense for me

as scum

to wait to unvote if I had some better wagon to be on anyway.

This while scenario is convoluted, and it seems like you are just trying to make something seem scummy when it isn't.

You're getting bogged down in the fringes of what I said. The core of my argument is this. These behaviors:

-Retracting the biggest part of your argument for scumreading someone
-Declaring that they are still your biggest suspect
-Keeping your vote on them anyway

Seem scummy to me because they contradict each other and therefore suggest that your motives aren't genuine.

I already responded to Cho when she said that exact same thing. You've read the post, I'm sure, seeing as you already quoted it.

The reason I said your scenario is convoluted is because there doesn't seem to be scum motivation for me to do the things you are saying I did.

If you take away the first point (which I've already responded to), the perceived contradiction vanishes. Like I said, it seems like you looking for ways for my behavior to be scummy and finding examples that don't hold up.

[Jargonaut]

What's your read on Jargonaut, anyway?

What's yours?

For the record, I don't think Dunham is a good wagon, especially given the fact that he isn't here to answer any accusations. Like MTD said, it seems like mislynch-bait.

UNVOTE: Riptide. I looked through their day 1 posts again, and not much actually stands out as particularly scummy compared to what I thought I remembered. Taking into account their overnight case on Elyse, I'm not confident in pushing them.

...

I'm gonna use myself as an example- you read my case/ISO on Elyse? You saw how I explained what I was thinking as I was looking through the posts? Please do.

You never answered this BE.

[Jargonaut]

Oh I forgot about the new line thing.

UNVOTE: Riptide

[Jargonaut]

Anyway, you said that I was waiting to unvote TSO so that I could "hop on a more viable wagon." The key word here is

waiting

. If I were

waiting

to hop on a new wagon, wouldn't that imply that I already wanted to get on a new wagon and thus had a wagon in mind to get on? If I'm

waiting

to do something, why wouldn't I do it?

There could be many possible scum motivations behind unvoting TSO and then not voting for somebody else. Maybe you hadn't made up your mind as to which wagon you wanted to get on. Maybe you only felt pressure to unvote and you didn't feel so much pressure to hop on a different wagon. Maybe Riptide was your partner, so you didn't want to vote for them, but you also couldn't drum up a convincing enough case on Cho in time to hop on the wagon before it hit L-1.

If I were

waiting

to hop on a new wagon, wouldn't that imply that I already wanted to get on a new wagon and thus

had a wagon in mind to get on?

Also, I thought your working theory was that BE was my partner. Now I'm with Riptide?
And with the way multiple people on the Cho wagon voted (I.E. almost naked-ly), you don't think I could have come up with a short reason in order to join on if I'd wanted to?

You also haven't explained to me why it makes sense for me

as scum

to wait to unvote if I had some better wagon to be on anyway.

See above.

I'm looking, but I don't see an answer. You gave possible motivation for me not voting someone else, but not for me keeping my vote on TSO when I was supposedly waiting to take it off anyway. What was I waiting for?

I already responded to Cho when she said that exact same thing. You've read the post, I'm sure, seeing as you already quoted it.

Uh...I looked through your ISO just now and found a post where you responded to Cho challenging your read on TSO. That was the post where you unvoted TSO. But I didn't see anything where you responded to Cho talking about your unvote. I'm not even sure Cho did talk about your unvote.

Can you point to the post you're referring to?

You're getting bogged down in the fringes of what I said. The core of my argument is this. These behaviors:

-Retracting the biggest part of your argument for scumreading someone
-Declaring that they are still your biggest suspect
-Keeping your vote on them anyway

Seem scummy to me because they contradict each other and therefore suggest that your motives aren't genuine.

That is what I responded to. Note that you didn't say anything about my unvote here. You had a list of 3 items which had to do with my

keeping

my vote on TSO despite dropping the meta-related part of my argument, which is something I already responded about when Cho brought it up.

The reason I said your scenario is convoluted is because there doesn't seem to be scum motivation for me to do the things you are saying I did.

I've noted the scum motivation several times now.

This is a very odd thing to say. Up until this post, you hadn't noted any scum motivation, so you responding to me with this makes it seem like you're trying to make my arguments look redundant when they aren't.

[Jargonaut]

Vote: Rubicon

I haven't been particularly impressed with anything you've produced so far.

This is such an out of left field vote. Other than not being impressed do you think he's scummy?

Do I need to think he's scummy to vote him?

- Dice

Why else would you vote him?

[Jargonaut]

Riptide, if you voted Rubicon mostly for reactions, why is your vote still on him? Do you actually want him lynched today?

@TSO: It was because of the game we both replaced into, Newbie 1473. I had felt that your push on Cho was similar to your push on pisskop that game, but ultimately I decided that the similarities were mostly superficial and that there were too many differences to use it as a comparison.

[Jargonaut]

The reason I said your scenario is convoluted is because there doesn't seem to be scum motivation for me to do the things you are saying I did.

I've noted the scum motivation several times now.

This is a very odd thing to say.

Up until this post

, you hadn't noted any scum motivation, so you responding to me with this makes it seem like you're trying to make my arguments look redundant when they aren't.

Lol this should be fun. Let's quote all the times I've listed the possible scum motivations:
~~snip~~

Maybe you hadn't made up your mind as to which wagon you wanted to get on. Maybe you only felt pressure to unvote and you didn't feel so much pressure to hop on a different wagon. Maybe Riptide was your partner, so you didn't want to vote for them, but you also couldn't drum up a convincing enough case on Cho in time to hop on the wagon before it hit L-1.

I'm done with this stupid back and forth. The fact that you quoted your post 402 in response to my claim that you hadn't provided scum motivation

before

402 means that you are doing one of three things:
1. Not reading what you're arguing against
2. Being actually bad at logic/reasoning
3. Purposefully making poor arguments

I'm going to step back and reread this whole conversation to see what the likelihood of 3 being the case is. I'm not sure if it's just frustration with your seeming obtuseness, but it feels quite likely.

@TSO: It was because of the game we both replaced into, Newbie 1473. I had felt that your push on Cho was similar to your push on pisskop that game, but ultimately I decided that the similarities were mostly superficial and that there were too many differences to use it as a comparison.

You're damn right there were a lot of differences - namely, me OMGUS'ing pisskop on Day 2. Not page 2. Biiiig differences.

This is a bit strange, Jargo.

Exactly! I

am

damn right that there were a lot of differences! For example, you were considerably meaner to the person you were pushing that game than in this one, and you also didn't start pushing pisskop as quickly as you did Cho.

This

is

a bit strange, TSO.

[Jargonaut]

I'd like to see your case on BE

[Jargonaut]

And Tool, I'm not sure. Probably you or BE, but my reads are not strong right now.

[Jargonaut]

I'm convinced

VOTE: Burning Earth

I'd like to add that he never explained any of the quotes in his Riptide case, which to me makes it feel really fake. Why make a case if you won't explain it anyway? It's like he was just trying to look like he was doing something.

[Jargonaut]

I don't care for Dunham's reaction to Riptide's question about why his second post should include scum hunting. Sure, scumhunting is helpful and protown and all that. But there are players who would rather BS the first few pages regardless of alignment. While I'm not so sure that's what Riptide was doing (I think he was just saying Elyse's point was BS), Dunham ignores the idea that not everyone is in SRSMODE on Page 1. When Burning shows support for that idea, Dunham now feels safe laying a vote. I don't like that he waited for Burning's endorsement.

I don't like Dunham calling out burning as "testing the Mod". It looks like an attempt to get burning modkilled. And his "beating your wife" comment would suggest that he isn't someone who would be upset at someone calling someone else dumb.

Isn't it possible for townies to be more inclined to vote after seeing someone else agree with them? And I don't really think he was trying to get BE modkilled, I think he was just trying to be snarky.

[Jargonaut]

I don't care for Dunham's reaction to Riptide's question about why his second post should include scum hunting. Sure, scumhunting is helpful and protown and all that. But there are players who would rather BS the first few pages regardless of alignment. While I'm not so sure that's what Riptide was doing (I think he was just saying Elyse's point was BS), Dunham ignores the idea that not everyone is in SRSMODE on Page 1. When Burning shows support for that idea, Dunham now feels safe laying a vote. I don't like that he waited for Burning's endorsement.

I don't like Dunham calling out burning as "testing the Mod". It looks like an attempt to get burning modkilled. And his "beating your wife" comment would suggest that he isn't someone who would be upset at someone calling someone else dumb.

Isn't it possible for townies to be more inclined to vote after seeing someone else agree with them? And I don't really think he was trying to get BE modkilled, I think he was just trying to be snarky.

[Jargonaut]

I don't know why that posted twice. My b :/

[Jargonaut]

TL;DR Think of B_E as a child and most things he does make a hell of a lot more sense.

That doesn't explain away all his behavior. I previously mentioned that he never went anywhere with his Riptide case, or even explained it. Why would a town BE do that?

[Jargonaut]

Was that just curiosity or did you think it might be relevant?

[Jargonaut]

GG. This was my first scum game, so if anyone has constructive criticism, I'd love to hear it.

Also good shooting, Egg