Mini 1537: ATTACK ON TITAN (Game Over!)

[Paschendale]

Pasch's thoughts on everything so far.

This Plum/Kaze love fest is a wee bit fishy.

I'm actually not swayed one way or the other by Bert's miller claim. We'll lynch him for scummy play, not a claim. Isn't claiming right away considered optimal play for an actual miller? Seems kind of null to me. I don't know the series this is based on, but a character with vague alignment seems to fit a miller.

Agree with Kaze's notions on Pie and F-16 in post 48. Pie's tone worries me, too. Looks like a lot more assurance than is really warranted.

Brian seems towny. Plum seems extremely non-committal. I do not find that trustworthy.

I'm not really sure what to make of all this "weak" discussion. It might be legit, but it also might be a lot of rolefishing.

Leaning Town: Bert, Brian, Kaze
Leaning Scum: Pie, F-16, Plum
Null so far: Broseidon, Konian, Kagami, everyone else who hasn't posted

I'm not sure what to make of Konian's sole post, though.

VOTE: Pie

[Paschendale]

Also, I'll be on a train for most of tomorrow.

[Paschendale]

I'm not really sure what to make of all this "weak" discussion. It might be legit, but it also might be a lot of rolefishing.

I don't see how you cannot have an opinion on the discussion considering all that has transpired.

I'm leaning towards rolefishing. I was sure it was just rolefishing until we got to page 5. Then, less sure. Still leaning towards rolefishing. I don't like that.

[Paschendale]

Kagami was actively looking to get other players to claim. Lack of a weak signifier means PR abilities. Kagami not only sought to get people to claim having abilities, but also asserted that only town could have it. She pretended that it was the usual weak like a weak doctor, despite apparently knowing that it is not. She pushed for more discussion and claims over it. Everyone who replied "what do you mean, weak miller?" outed themselves as a PR. But they would not have if she hadn't revealed what it actually meant. I think it is far more likely that she or part of the scum team is a goon and has the weak modifier, hence how they know what it means. They're the only ones who get to see multiple PMs.

It looked like simple rolefishing until page 5, where she was just asking more weak people to claim, back when everyone thought that weak was the town-signifying modifier that it usually is. Then she revealed what it really means, and I (foolishly) hesitated. But after a little more thought, it looks like a deliberate attempt to get people to reveal that they are not weak before they understood the significance.

The explanation of what the modifier really meant gave me pause, but now I feel much more certain.

VOTE: Kagami

Are you her partner, Plum?

[Paschendale]

@ Pasch, you haven't explained any of your initial scumreads now jumping onto Kagami. What changed? What you claimed was scummy about Kagami was something she posted much before your initial catch-up posts.

What about Plum did you find scummy?

Nothing changed other than taking some time to consider the implications of Kagami's gambit. Pie is still scummy, but was my second choice vote while typing my first post. Kagami was my first choice, because how obviously asking other weak players to claim was as rolefishing, because we all thought it meant what it usually does. Kagami dropped the explanation about the weak modifier being something different right as I was posting it. I was about to leave for a bit and wanted to think about it, but wanted to vote, so I went with my second choice. I had several comments about all of this at the time, and then she dropped the bomb. I didn't know what to think then, so I said that instead. Then, I had a chance to think about it some more and realized how it all fit together.

Plum is mainly just a reaction to her tone, but she did go along with Kagami right away. She was one of the few not to react with "what's a weak miller?" My asking that was another thing I amended in my first post right before submitting it. But Plum fell in line right away. In general, though, her posts contain quips, emotes, and unsupported votes. But nothing resembling cases or opinions. Some of it is associative to Kagami, and that's unwise without a flip, but the rest is dodgy comments and tone.

It's not that I thought or didn't think there was a third weak player - It's that it sounded like Kagami knew there were more since she said she wouldn't explain the modifier until another person claimed it.

And that doesn't bother you? You are pointing out all the same things I said about Kagami's actions, but somehow you ignore the obvious conclusion. In fact, you have tried really hard to avoid any conclusions about it. Do you think her actions were deliberate? Accidental? Is it scum motivated or town motivated?

If you're right, I was basically handing out mad town-cred.

And outing PRs.

[Paschendale]

I've avoided conclusions? My answers to all this questions should be intrinsically obvious at this point. I think her actions were town motivated and deliberately working towards developing the town's position.

Then why don't you actually explain how this is possible? Cuz I see no way that this benefited town at all. All I see is scum having better choices for night kills. And I wasn't suggesting that you were scummy. I was suggesting that you're missing the obvious.

It don't know that anyone thought 'Weak' meant what it usually does - it was pretty clear to me by the time she explained it that it probably meant what she then went on to say it means and that she believed scum didn't have access to the fact that such a modifier would be part of the setup.

That's a weird misrep of your own reaction to the weak claim. And Pie's. And Kaze's. Kaze explicitly invoked the standard meaning. Why are you lying?

And why would she believe this? If weak means not having gear, than a goon would necessarily have it. It's an obvious lie that only town could have it. And one that you dutifully repeat.

I think it is far more likely that she or part of the scum team is a goon and has the weak modifier, hence how they know what it means.

This isn't even remotely plausible. Scum don't and can't have the Weak modifier; they are Weak by default.

Since the weak modifier isn't based on alignment, explain how this is true. Why are you lying?

She never asked for another 'Weak' claim - only stated what she'd do in the event of a third one - which, considering what she assumed about scum knowledge, was a pretty reasonable approach.

It takes a lot of cognitive dissonance to watch someone repeatedly say that they have a plan for when a third person claims and not see that as a call for a claim. So again, why are you lying?

pasch, I'm quite sure I'm correct about everything I said regarding the weak modifier, the "danger" was that scum would know what it is (either through their fake-claim information or through special mod-granted setup knowledge as bro suggested) and would use that knowledge to snatch some town-cred. The fact that nobody jumped on being the third "claim" suggests to me that they weren't given explicit setup knowledge regarding the modifier, and if one of them has the modifier in their fake-claim, they didn't figure out what it meant (it's not obvious, as bert proved, and would be even less obvious to scum who wouldn't have it on their real PM despite lacking maneuver gear).

Every word of this is a lie. It's obvious that scum (you and probably Plum) knew all of this from the start. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that scum wouldn't understand this modifier, either from fake claims or from their own roles. This is just you pretending not to have had this information that you clearly had when formulating this plan.

It's a "danger" that scum knows this, except that you and Plum both declared that such a situation was impossible. That nobody jumped on being the third claim means nobody wanted to out themselves, because town didn't really understand the implications of the modifier, while scum did. That's why town didn't bring it up. You did. Because you're scum and wanted to use this extra information you had to your advantage. It had to be early before there was a flip and the weak status became common knowledge. The moment the weak miller claim came out, you jumped on it.

...
It don't know that anyone thought 'Weak' meant what it usually does - it was pretty clear to me by the time she explained it that it probably meant what she then went on to say it means ...

This is my favorite thing that plum has said. If she had really figured what weak meant, there's very little scum motivation in revealing that, and I also see little scum motivation in overstating her knowledge if she hadn't.

Except for the part where it's obviously a lie and you try to milk it super hard for townpoints, yeah, no scum motivation at all.

At least one of these two is scum. The other might just be playing into scum's hands rather than being their buddy. But it really looks like buddies to me, especially the way Plum has gotten more and more eager to support Kagami as she goes on. You can see Plum go from confusion to retroactive endorsement. They tried a gambit. It didn't work. It tipped their hand.

[Paschendale]

Very well, perhaps I was mistaken in my conclusions over this "weak" modifier thing. The whole think stunk to me, though.

Plum's posts still have me uneasy, but I'm willing to accept being wrong about the "weak" thing. But I don't like the way she handled it at all.

Otherwise, there are so many different things going on. I think F-16 is floudering all over the place. I'm not sure what's going on in his mind, but he's puking all over the page.

I'm not inspired by Dan at all, or Tammy. Tammy makes good points, but then ignored all of them to vote for me. I've seen a couple people say things like "nothing Pasch posts looks like town". Sorry, that's just how I sound. I get mislynched a lot because people apparently don't know how to read me.

Muffin is, in my experience, pretty level-headed and is playing to that in this game. I think he's right about Bro. Bro started out strong, like he had some ideas, but has seriously petered out since. He looks unfocused and defensive. Not sure how I feel about his quickhammer comment about F-16. though. Why wouldn't he cast the l-1 vote? Seems weird.

VOTE: Bro

Pasch's crazy post followed by ninja vanish still seems like the most suspicious thing that's happened thus far.

I was actually on a train all day yesterday. I forgot to post about it in this thread. You can see posts about it in mini 1536 and 1537.

[Paschendale]

You can see posts about it in mini 1536 and 1537.

Or rather, just 1536.

[Paschendale]

I'm defensive because I'm responding to attacks on me.

Wat.

Also, you have like twice as many scum reads as there are scum.

I'd rather lynch Pie, but I'll probably end up jumping to this since mine and F-16's wagons look counter to this, and his posts suck.

You got defensive before there were many attacks on you, and were disproportionate in your defense. Your tone changed completely from a sensible offense to a desperate sounding defense.

Of course I have lots of scum reads, it's day 1. That's normal. While a lot of players in this game seem to like handing out townreads like candy, I don't. I think a lot more people are deserving of scumreads.

[Paschendale]

F-16 probably sees Pasch's weakness and that explains why he's jumping on the chance to vote him in 406. Can I get "Desperate Attempt to Counterwagon" for 500, Alex?

My "weakness" is not handing out townreads over what looked like a scum-motivated gambit at worst and a complete mess at best.

Also, why aren't you questioning why the Pasch wagon lost steam?

Because it was bad and full of OMGUS.

#2 feels more true to me, especially given that Pie put out bs reasons against me, and people called it "good reasoning" despite it being clearly based on a misrep of what I said.

So make a decent case on Pie.

HOW THE FUCK ARE MY RESPONSES SHIT? YOU ARE A FUCKING MORON. I EXPLAINED EVERYTHING OVER AND OVER AND YOU ARE STILL NOT GETTING IT.

And yet you're not explaining things well enough to convince anyone. Your thoughts are incredibly disorganized. Hence, puking out thoughts that don't go together.

Kagami just tipped her hand.

She's either a lot less good that people have been giving her credit for, or she's scum trying to protect a buddy.

That's what I said before, but no one wanted to hear it.

This fits nicely into the narrative of scum-Kagami gambiting and trying to discredit me catching onto why something she hoped would be an auto-towntell isn't actually a town tell.

Someone gets it!

Don't get me wrong, this occurred to me as a definite possibility. I waited to see her response while she might still have had confidence in my Townread on her. I'm not particularly impressed?

Kagami - are you really that sure scum had no information about the Weak modifier? As in, does your PM give you direct reason to believe that? Nothing in-thread suggests that they didn't. Even if the risk isn't small, your Broscum read rests on the assumption that Town-Bro wouldn't see it this way or wouldn't call out a mechanic or setup element that didn't make sense from a balance perspective.

I

didn't think it made much sense to assume that; I only did because your confidence implied you had information in your Role PM that indicated that scum didn't know. I just can't fathom why you think this is a good argument, which gives me at least some pause. Bro - you may be right. Hm. Really not sure here. It would explain one thing that didn't make sense - why did Kagami out what Weak meant so easily when Bert didn't get it? What was gained for the Town by doing that? It was a piece of information that could always be explained later if it turned out that it was necessary e.g. if people kept running Bert up after all that.

I don't want to be too condescending here but I'll take the risk. I'm not here to referee theory fights that people get worked up about, take too personally or seriously, and vote on. Or maybe I am, but I'd rather people didn't make me spend my energy on it. This exactly what Town

does not

need.

Stop voting people because they piss you off, because I don't want to have to clean up the mess.

I actually like everything in here. Plum is right on every point. Kagami's whole gambit really did rely on setup knowledge that she didn't have. Whether it was an intentional deception or a mistake seems to be the real crux.

Also F-16 needs to chill out.

No, there was no special reason to believe they wouldn't have known about it beyond my own experience reading games.

So then why did you misrepresent this as actual knowledge, rather than a guess?

@anyone:

does anyone know how to read Kaze? if so what are your reads on him?

He reads to me like Thor or Majiffy. They just want town to follow them. They do this as town and as scum. I would be careful giving Kaze townpoints. You can end up tricking yourself and confusing leadership with actually being on the side of town.

Kaze: Pasche literally and directly misrepped Kagami. He stated that she pretended that Weak meant Normal Weak even though she knew that wasn't true - but she

never

did so; from the beginning she stated clearly that it

wasn't

Normal Weak. So, besides an outright lie and a bunch of fallacious accusations that I lied -

On the contrary, Kagami went along with everyone else's "what's a weak miller" and asked for more weak claims... and only then addressed the idea that weak didn't mean what it normally does. Maybe you don't don't see the malicious intent like I do, but no part of what I said was a misrepresentation.

And then you said this, which actually IS a lie:

This isn't even remotely plausible. Scum don't and can't have the Weak modifier; they are Weak by default.

You don't know that. And asserting it as a fact when it's a guess as best and a lie at worst only made Kagami's gambit worse for everyone.

-------

Up until this last post, I was starting to turn around on Plum, but I really can't shake that she and Kagami are trying really hard to cover each other's backs.

I genuinely think it was a scum-motivated gambit to get out a lot of information about roles that was far more beneficial to scum than it was to town. That is the strongest indicator I see from this day and arguing about the current wagons has just mucked it up. I'm not gonna compromise onto a weaker read when I'm so sure about this one.

As noted above, some of you see it, too. Bro and Plum do. Kaze could if he checked his ego a little. Make scum pay for trying to trick us.

VOTE: Kagami

[Paschendale]

9 days isn't enough, Mastin? (Are Mastin and Mastin2 the same person?)

Also, this hydra head is not puking like F-16 is. This is an improvement.

A Plum wagon would suit me fine.

@Brian: Go with that stinky feeling about Kagami. It's a good idea.

[Paschendale]

@Pasch:

Agree with Kaze's notions on Pie and F-16 in post 48. Pie's tone worries me, too.

Looks like a lot more assurance than is really warranted.

can you explain what was with your initial scumread on me and F-16? you were agreeing with Kaze who didn't explain either of them. also, what does bolded mean?

also, can you walk me through your read on BRO in more detail? I get your initial scumread of him but then around 500 it feels like you were starting to have reservations based on your questioning and responses to him. can you explain how your read on him changed over time plz?

Your early posts came off like you were stating a lot of thing unequivocally. That is, invoking knowledge you didn't actually have. False bravado or even unfounded confidence tends to worry me, since I think town should always keep in mind that we can be wrong. That kind of language, to me, looks like a false push rather than a reasoned argument. But you haven't been doing that as much, so I haven't continued it. As you obtain more information, your tone seems to become more reasoned. Though a lot of it has just been your argument with Bro that I haven't had a super strong read on, at least not compared to Kagami and Plum. And that's a topic on which I know you share some of my suspicions.

As for Bro, he does look to be scumhunting. He's not just setting his sights on one or two targets, but is analyzing quite a few people. Early on, it looked like he panicked for a while and just went super defensive, but he's moved past that. I see town motivated analysis. I don't necessarily think he's right on all of his reads, like the strength of his scumread on you or his townread on Plum, but it doesn't look like lies to me. From either of you.

I think you two should stop fighting with each other and help me lynch Kagami. Or Kaze or Plum. But mostly Kagami.

[Paschendale]

Muffin, does your read on pasch stand up to the possibility that the scumteam might be incentivized to lynch me?

You mean that your partners might bus you.

[Paschendale]

So, what we're discovering now about the weak modifier even moreso contradicts the assertions made by Kagami and Plum earlier. They lied and used to spin a bizarre gambit that only served to help scum. I know that arguing over flavor is annoying, and I agree with Tammy's frustration about it. But sometimes there's something sinister in it.

[Paschendale]

The wagon on F-16 and then Mastin just looks weaker and weaker as it goes. I think a lot of it really came from F-16's frenzied tone and his lack of focus. But now we're discussing arrogance and smilies? Really? And there's far too much reliance on meta arguments. People do not always play a certain way as scum and a certain way as town.

In terms of actual cases based on what people are saying in this game... Bro and Muffin are making the most sense right now. As is Tammy (though she's certainly wrong about me).

[Paschendale]

It was just pointed out that both the "arrogance" and "smilies" points were not serious.

Or you meant them seriously and are recanting. Or were purposefully trying to push people towards a mislynch despite not believing in your argument.

But if those were just lies, why not tell us what you actually think.

[Paschendale]

In a game entirely centered around figuring out who is lying, it seems very strange to me that a post of "you might be lying, and I don't generally believe you since you've lied a bunch of other times" gets that kind of reaction.

Plum/Kaze/Kagami. There is absolutely scum in that group. I have no doubt.

[Paschendale]

Apologies. I should have said V/LA for this last weekend. I thought I would have more time. I'm in the finishing touches of sorting out the apartment I'm moving to next month, and then I have to jump on a train on Tuesday. January has been pretty chaotic for me so far. I'm just gonna go ahead and say V/LA, though I might have some time tomorrow, I don't know... until Wednesday. Things are just really chaotic right now with moving and travelling. I apologize for not being able to give this game my full attention. I apologize for any questions being put to me that I'm missing. Save them for Wednesday, and I'd be happy to give them my full attention.

Thank you all for a little indulgence. 2014 has been shaking up everything in my life and I think it's going to be awesome, but the start is going to be very rocky.

[Paschendale]

Sorry to keep everyone waiting, every time I tried to log in and post last night, the site was down.

Why exactly are people voting for me? I get the OMGUS from Plum and Kagami, but other than expressing an unpopular opinion (which is correct - Kagami is scum), sticking to my guns and trying to convince the rest of you to vote for scum, what has me suddenly on the chopping block?

This game has seriously lacked for compelling cases. Kthxbye is actually correct. Most of this game has been a lot of flailing and weird "oh yes, this person must be town", without any justification. A lot of it from Kagami and Kaze, who are contributing extremely little to scumhunting and have spent most of the game buddying just about anyone that will listen and refusing to go out on a limb to convince anyone of a difficult choice.

It appears I've become a conciliatory information lynch to mollify these two lazy (and scummy) players. This is a terrible idea. I don't even know what there is to learn other than that a lot of players really aren't pulling their weight in this game. I've done that. I have continually chased the most suspicious players and refused to give out unwarranted townpoints. If anyone can't see that I'm doing my best to help town win then they're just not paying attention.

[Paschendale]

Yes Plum, one of the reasons that you're scum is that you haven't done any scumhunting at all, just defended your partner from my attacks.

Plum or Kagami must die today. And when whichever one we lynch flips scum, the other should follow.

[Paschendale]

@Pasch: I can't remember, but weren't you up for a claim? I think you're at L-2 and supposedly Kaze's vote is there "in spirit" (he just wants the hammer).

I didn't claim because I wasn't at L-1 facing a hammer. Kaze's vote is only enough to put me at L-1. Why give scum any information that I don't have to? I'm especially not going to give that information out early because someone as scummy as Kaze is asking for it. Or when someone as scummy as Plum is saying that my claim wouldn't matter anyway. A claim at this point is being treated as little more than a formality to give the go ahead to lynch. Why the hell would I do that, give scum permission to lynch me?

If there was someone who was at least reasonably likely to be town and to care what I claimed asking for it, then I would. But Plum and Kaze are not those people.

Plum is continually buying more and more into this awful wagon. Nobody can articulate any good reason for voting me. Half the people on my wagon are only supporting it because it's the biggest one. This is an obvious mislynch. Instead, vote for the duplicitous people trying to push the wagon.

VOTE: Plum

[Paschendale]

What bothers me about Pasch is the "THERE IS NO REASONING ABOUT THIS LYNCH, THIS IS ALL BS" thing. The victim card rings kinda scummy :/

So why don't you elaborate on what those reasons are?

I've yet to see a Pasch game where he hasn't done this when strung up. (Did I mention he's an easy mislynch?) If anything, it's a towntell, and it's quite justified in this case. There's literally no reason to be lynching him.

I'm loathe to invoke self-meta, but pretty much the consensus on me is that I look like scum no matter what I do. I get mislynched, for really stupid reasons, pretty often. But I also often make good arguments and find scum. Like what I'm doing now.

Actually pasche would claim as town.

And you know this, how? I always try to avoid claiming. It usually doesn't stop you from getting lynched unless you have a really strong power, but then guarantees a night kill if you do.

intent to hammer

Fine, now I will. I'm Marco Bodt, a town neighborizer. I don't know anything about the flavor, but apparently this character is really popular and social. I get to pick one person to neighbor with and have a QT with them. I'm not weak. I obviously have not used my power yet.

Now can we lynch Plum? Or was this claiming just a formality? Seriously, Bert, don't just pick at random. Analyze the facts. It's a pretty clear choice. AD, Bert, do the pro-town thing and lynch scumPlum and not townPasch.

Bert, will you hammer if/when Pasche posts without claiming?

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY, GIVE THIS SCUM THE ROPE!!

[Paschendale]

So why don't you elaborate on what those reasons are?

There was a less active game that I was able to get into - Ice and Fire. That was our only old game together. I actually did read your content in that game and thought you were scum. I even, during twilight D2 after being lynched, told the opposing Fire and Ice Mafia to kill you and Stubbs and someone else.

For the record, I didn't like your reaction to the supposed "BS case." It was like you were freaking out.

But as you saw, I was town in that game. So your only experience with me, I played like this, and was town. What are your reasons, then? And how exactly is it scum motivated to be angry when there's a scum driven wagon on you that other townies are joining for poor reasons?

@Tammy: You're right, there is one there. It's Kaze.

He didn't say Human.

Yeah, and? Please, tell me your wonderful theory on how it's scum motivated to just always refer to the sides as town and scum, regardless of flavor.

The scum here are obvious. They're just making up insane shit.

[Paschendale]

So how do you have a townread on Plum, Tammy? She was just as heavy on the setup stuff as Kagami, but actually lied in the process. And then has absolutely no reads of her own other than to attack me for suspecting her.

[Paschendale]

Except that I haven't lied. Why do you still have this townread on Plum? If you had it from the beginning then it was nothing more than just a first impression or gut. Haven't you updated it from what's happened? And of course she's been pushing me, she started doing it the minute I attacked her and Kagami. Kagami at least explored other options. Plum hasn't. She's devoted almost all of her energy just to attacking me, and hasn't done a very good job of it. Don't let yourself be fooled by confirmation bias.

As for the roles, yeah, that is weird. I don't know why the mod chose to do that, but he did. Maybe it really fits the flavor? I don't know. If this was Gundam I could see groups of neighbors/masons as a newtype kinda thing, but I don't know if there's anything like that from the source material.

[Paschendale]

Pie is making tremendous sense.

VOTE: Kaze

[Paschendale]

Buddying a townie, especially one who looks particularly townie, is not an uncommon scum tactic. Manufacturing it after the fact makes it even fishier. However, Brian seems fairly town to me anyway, so I'm not swayed either way by the claim.

[Paschendale]

I targeted Bert, actually. But it didn't go through.

I chose him because I think he's pretty town. I don't think his hammer was scummy, and the only arguments that portray it as such rely on a terrible logical fallacy, that it was a 50/50 chance between myself and Plum and that our respective claims (both of which were true) should have been the only criteria. Hammering someone you think is scum, regardless of a claim, is a town thing to do. Plum was suspicious as hell. Those advocating for killing Bert right now are employing faulty logic to do so, and are also suspicious as hell.

[Paschendale]

Bert is scum and the logic isn't faulty. Between neighborizer and flavor cop claims, you don't lynch the flavor cop over the neighborizer claim...ever. The end. Only scum would want to get rid of the flavor cop. Neighborizers are more often a scum role than flavor cop (in my experience anyway). Both are conformable so hammering Plum after the 2 claims was done by scum. Kill it.

That's stupid. You lynch who you think is most likely to be scum. You lynch whichever claim you think is most likely to be a lie. Otherwise, why bother with claims? Then it's just a contest of who claims doc. You don't play by rote, you evaluate the facts.

"I targeted Bert, actually. But it didn't go through."

What? Is there some conditional aspect on your end, or was there a block?

I'm guessing block, though I wasn't informed of anything. I also wasn't going to ask about it, since that would just give more PR information to scum. Which is, I presume, what you want to happen.

[Paschendale]

I really don't see Bertscum. Are there any reasons for this besides his hammer?

[Paschendale]

There are only three possible events here:

A) pasch is lying about his role
B) bert is lying about his role
C) Some third party blocked pasch or stopped bert.

C is extremely unlikely, because who would block a neighborizer? There were other, better targets to block. On top of that, it implies scum has a roleblocker, which would basically make the 1-shot commuter ability, which is essentially the central mechanic of this setup, trivially neutralized.

Or the commuter supersedes the roleblock. Either way, all of this PR speculation just helps scum. If you don't have a case and are just jumping on whoever hammered, say that.

[Paschendale]

I'm not fucking scum, pie. I'm never fucking scum and you're always fucking wrong when you read me. Get the fuck out of my face and push someone worthwhile before I find some way to reach through the internet and tear your fucking eyes out.

oh no I'm really scared
srsly, why so defensive? it's literally just me and Pasch (who you think is scum) on you and it's not looking like anyone else wants to lynch you today

like does anyone else think this post seems fake or is it just me

Kinda, yeah. Especially since the next sentence in it was a call to analyze stuff from day 1, which Kaze has not actually done. He seems quite content to vote just based on Bert's hammer and ignore everything else. This seems like a scum move to me. Get everyone to react emotionally on a single piece of information and ignore anything that might be helpful in making a more informed decision. That's actually really scummy.

Also, I'm really not interested in all this lovers and who's confirmed to who stuff. I'd rather evaluate based on actual evidence, rather than just off of who I think is telling the truth about vague claims.

Bro's comment that Tammy usually AtE's as town is probably the most compelling thing out of this whole argument, and it's a lousy bit of meta, and I don't like those.

I don't like the idea of the massclaim, as I've been against all this willy nilly claiming already. I've never really seen a massclaim sway the game for town. Maybe I've just been really unlucky in games where it's happened, but it looks like it does more harm than good to me.

Peedit: Fine, massclaim. Maybe then we can stop talking about roles and scumhunt.

[Paschendale]

Bro's comment that Tammy usually AtE's as town is probably the most compelling thing out of this whole argument, and it's a lousy bit of meta, and I don't like those.

that actually is lousy meta and not compelling at all.

I know. It feels like everyone is doing everything but trying to find scum.

[Paschendale]

The day 1 weak discussions make even less sense now that we know what it actually does. Why exactly do we think that Titans can't have Maneuver Gear?

[Paschendale]

The day 1 weak discussions make even less sense now that we know what it actually does. Why exactly do we think that Titans can't have Maneuver Gear?

...are you familiar with the show/manga? If you were, the answer would be pretty obvious.

(Basically, they don't need it.)

I am not.

[Paschendale]

Pasch, have you asked pitoli if you would receive notification in the event you were roleblocked?

All I know is that nothing happened. I wasn't told why.

[Paschendale]

Pasch, have you asked pitoli if you would receive notification in the event you were roleblocked?

All I know is that nothing happened. I wasn't told why.

It's typically the case (to my limited knowledge) that when actions like this fail due to a roleblock, you are PMed that you were blocked. Unfortunately, Pitoli appears to have only modded one prior game and the roleblocker in it was killed night one having blocked someone without an action, so there's no mod-meta to back it up.

I'm surprised you didn't directly ask her what happened given that you should be very curious why it didn't go through.

In my experience, there is never information as to why a night action failed. So, I didn't find it fishy that I wasn't told. That's normal as far as I know. Like, a cop investigation that failed would just get back "no result", regardless of whether the cop was roleblocked, the cop or target was jailed, the target was immune or was a commuter, or some other way I'm not thinking of at this moment.

It seems like Pitoli is acting more to what I'm used to than what you are.

Pasch: Do you have a QT already, or were you to receive a QT link with your first invite?

p-edit: already asked this essentially. I don't think pitoli wants to answer publicly, but she might be willing to answer privately if pasch asks.

I did ask privately since my last post. The answer was no.

Actually pasch, since we've all fully claimed, could you describe your role as thoroughly as possible (without directly quoting your role pm), together with any other information that would help us determine that you're telling the truth?

I'm Marco Bodt. I don't have much flavor, but it contains justifications for having both the 3-D gear (piloting skills) and my neighborizing ability (friendly demeanor). My PM didn't come with a QT, so I assume it would have been created after my ability resolved. The ability is called "Friendly Comrade". Also, despite looking kinda Japanese, this guy has a lot of freckles.

[Paschendale]

I didn't get a PM at all. As I said, I asked more since this discussion began, and have received no other information.

[Paschendale]

Holy crap people, you are not informed if you're roleblocked in almost all instances.

Firstly, no. If you are a role that receives a response (like, here's your neighborhood QT, you can start talking tomorrow night), you get a PM saying you failed. If you didn't, it would be unclear whether or not the mod simply forgot to inform you of your results, which would be bad for several reasons.

If neighborizing doesn't receive a response, then 1342 becomes very suspicious. Why wouldn't he think the neighborization went through?

In my experience, the only time you'd get a response is as an investigator.

[Paschendale]

But we nae be lynching me Bert. In pushing for his lynch, ye reveal yer own treason, Kazekirimaru.

I agree here entirely. Bert was a lousy lynch from the start. That his wagon was scum-driven seems pretty clear to me. Kaze was one of the loudest supporters for it right away and then let other people push for it instead.

To others, why Mastin suddenly?

[Paschendale]

Wagon analysis, posting habits, and his "reads" all point to mastin as scum, as well as good ole' PoE.

So... no actual details. Wagon analysis, to me, points to Kaze as scum. "Posting habits" requires a lot more explanation, and a lot of people's reads in this game suck. People give and retract townreads way too often, and makes your good ole' PoE pretty useless.

Of course, pushing hard for a wagon and then jumping off of it after no new information to change that position looks even scummier. Kagami and Kaze still look like our best bets. I'm sure that at least one of them is scum. My money is still on Kaze.

[Paschendale]

I'm seriously confused. Kaze is full of shit, right? Nobody's hammered? And I seriously missed the catalyst for for this Mastin push. And I don't get how Bert or I will be "worked out" via tonight's night actions. Are we getting investigated? This has been my big frustration with this game. There's a group of players who all seem to be on the same wavelength and refuse to explain anything they're thinking to the rest of us. It feels like the wagon on me yesterday, and the wagons on Bert and Mastin now, stem from us not being in the "in" club. Nor do I think that all of the players (Kagami, Tammy, Kaze, Bro, and Rancid) in this special clique are town.

[Paschendale]

the way I see it is if we observe both of you for another night then we'll get more information from night actions, etc. that could help us figure out what your roles/alignments are. e.g. if someone does an action on Bert and it fails then he's probably a scum ascetic or similar. there's a lot of confusion as to what happened N1 and having another night could help us figure it out. thus, it's better to lynch someone who's not you or Bert today

mastin is scum bc {BRO, Tammy, me, Kagami, kthx} are all town and you and muffinati are probably town

my current guess for scumteam is {Kaze, mastin, Bert}. I'm inclined to agree with Tammy's read on Bert but I also agree it's better to not lynch him today. if it's not him it's probably Brian instead

You're about the only one I'm willing to give a strong townread on. Maybe Tammy, but not as much. Kagami is maybe shifting away from strong scum, but I wouldn't declare Bro or Kthx as solidly anything, especially Kthx. Muffin hydra I'm on the fence about, too, but yeah he's probably town. Kaze is definitely scum. I don't think Bert is, but self votes are never good and I feel like reasons for voting Bert are, like those for Mastin, something that just isn't being made clear to me.

So, aside from PoE, what's the case on Mastin? I really don't understand it. I'd like to understand it, but every time I ask, nobody will explain it. All I keep getting is PoE, and people handing out townreads that I don't agree with and certainly don't feel strongly enough about to PoE with. I wouldn't want to PoE at all on day 2, anyway.

Can we please just hang Kaze? He's just mucking everything up and obscuring any conclusions we reach. He's adding fog and he's pushing bad wagons.

[Paschendale]

Fine, no lynch on Kaze.

Bert has not been doing a whole lot to keep my townread on him. He's doing very little to scumhunt at all, and the self-vote thing is awful.

Intent to hammer Bert.

[Paschendale]

So, now that you're off that stupid self-voting kick, Bert, you wanna contribute some real opinions and ideas? You might get my vote anyway.

[Paschendale]

Your transitioning from defending me early D2 while everyone scumread me, up until the moment the momentum on my wagon dissipated, is mighty suspect.

No it isn't. I had you town on D1, and you've been consistently a useless pain in the ass all day since then. I'm tired of you just posting fluff and wasting my time. It took a threat to hammer you to stop with your self-vote bullshit. Your "thoughts" over D1 were grossly lacking. You have no reasons, just a few arbitrary opinions that have all the weight of a sneeze. You've contributed almost nothing of use and almost everything you post is about yourself.

Pasch: One-shot Neighborizer

Fixed

Seriously, what in the hell is going on in this game? People on the Bert wagon, do you actually think he's scum and should be lynched? If so, try arguing in favor of it a little bit. Bert's done all your arguing for you. Try to convince people. Same with Mastin's wagon.

[Paschendale]

I'm inclined to agree. Especially since no one will actually defend their vote for Mastin. All this hush hush really is not helping town at all. I don't like the secrecy. Are the reasons just being discussed in the neighbors' QT? You know what they call a group of players with a QT who work to undermine the town? Scum. I don't trust all this secrecy.

VOTE: Bert

Peedit: Oh, Bert finally makes some points with reasons. Except there's literally only one scumread and it's just a gut read. I call bullshit. Somewhere in those townreads are his scumbuddies.

[Paschendale]

Alright, reports from bro, pasch, and kthx?

I used up my one shot ability on night 1.

Ladies and gentleman, I am not a crook.

Kaze not handing in the kill doesn't really change anything for me. And I certainly see him as far more likely scum than Mastin.

VOTE: Kaze

[Paschendale]

Would someone like to actually give some support for the Mastin lynch? I was asking yesterday and no one rose up to the challenge. Is it just PoE? Is it just gut? Is there a reason?

[Paschendale]

Pasch,

1. How many scum do you think were on plum's wagon?
2. Why did you know your neighborize had failed prior to bert saying it did?
3. Why did you assume your shot was consumed by the roleblock?

1. I don't know. My top two suspects were on my wagon. The people on that wagon seem to keep dying, though. I don't have any evidence to suggest any specific number. I doubt all the scum were on it, but only because scum usually don't all pile onto one wagon.
2. Because I didn't get a PM with a QT in it.
3. Because that's how roleblocks work.

You really don't do anything besides harp on the setup, do you? And what's with this "why do you believe" nonsense? I read the damn rules.

This be Jesus's scum game. That is all ye need to know.

Right. Compelling.

I could describe some differences in the way he responds to other pirates and the way he approaches his reads, or I could point to his read progression on our cabin boy, Bert, and show you why he's playing a survival game rather than trying to figure out who is scum, but I be too lazy.

And you wonder why I feel like I'm being jerked around in this game. Everyone's voting based on meta reads from games that I wasn't in, and gut feelings that I don't share, and reads that they won't explain.

I be more interested in why ye think he's not scum.

I could describe it, but that's apparently not what we do. I actually do think he is, but I think that most of the players in this game are acting pretty scummy. You are certainly no exception. I'm sick and tired of being talked down to in this game. I'm sick of the condescension from Kagami, I'm sick of no one answering my questions, I'm sick of no one explaining their reads, and I'm sick of all the stupid pirate talk.

If anyone of you actually want to engage with me, please do. Otherwise, keep your crap to yourself.

[Paschendale]

All of this "feel like" garbage from Kagami and Kaze doesn't make the rest of you want to lynch them? Really? All of this "feeling" and "gut reads" is just a way to push your agenda without ever being called upon to defend it. Town have reasons for their ideas. Town are actually trying to find the right targets. Scum go out of their way to avoid being called to task for their pushes.

I bet that Pie is dead because she was the most vocal person person who was serious about lynching Kaze. That was where we should have lynched from the start. That's the scum in the neighborhood. And then Kagami goes for constantly protecting him.

Oh, and "slips". Slips are almost always bullshit.

[Paschendale]

Oh look, more setup spec. That's helpful.

[Paschendale]

Yeah, I'm not buying it from Kaze. Tammy dying means she probably protected Bro last night and paid the price. Kaze and Mastin probably went for a bus against each other for towncred, knowing that whichever one survived would be able to do exactly what Kaze is doing right now. Everything about Kaze's attacks on Mastin (and on others, including Plum and myself) show that he knows the outcome already. He never justified his vote on Mastin. He never explored theories. He's resisted town's process for the whole game.

VOTE: Kaze

That's where scum is. Kaze and his accomplices. It's a shame that Bro didn't manage to shoot him last night and get us two dead scum.

In other news, I will be moving over the next few days, so I will be V/LA for a bit. I estimate that I will be until the weekend, so let's say

V/LA until Sunday

, so I have time to unpack and get set up. Hopefully my internet will get hooked up on time and I won't be gone longer. I'd love to come back to a dead Kaze.

[Paschendale]

So, I'm all moved in, but I don't have my internet set up yet, so I'll be sporadic.

Between RBD and Kthx, I'm inclined to believe RBD a lot more. I obviously don't think there was anything wrong with his hammer, since I really thought that Kaze was scum. I kinda agree with the no lynch idea. I tend to normally be opposed to them, but we've lynched my best suspects already, so now I'm not so sure. I don't think we should vote in a no lynch anytime soon, but rather let the deadline expire or at least take our time.

Right now I would go with Kthx. I don't like his push on RBD (irrespective of finding RBD fairly towny). I also don't like his selective VCA. He picked only the successful lynches and not any other wagons. It looks like cherry picking of information, rather than genuine analysis. Equally interesting is that the same information he used to attack me also applies to him. So, his argument against me was really just "trust me" and not based on facts at all.

Kthx/Brian are the most likely, I think.

[Paschendale]

I don't think we should end the day without Brian at least checking in.

[Paschendale]

Pasch: is there a reason you arent active in this game? You were super active in earlier days and now you have posted once and that was when you thought rbd and i were going to try and lynch eachother...looks like you are hiding now.

As I said several times before, I just moved to a new apartment and I don't have internet there yet. It's actually proving to be a horrendous pain to get my new place set up. I have to use internet at friends' places and the laptop that I'm typing this on is actually breaking right now. Mafia is a little low on my priorities right now, but I'm trying to check in when I can.

So, why are people voting for me? Is it because of this gross misrep?

Why did Paschendale flip-flop on his Bert read so hard? I think it was because mastin was a counter-wagon (which would also explain his complete unwillingness to vote mastin yesterday despite claiming to find him scummy). Also, why did Paschendale choose to neighbourise Bert in the first place? I thought my other head asked this as some point, but I don't remember seeing an answer. Also what stopped the neighbourise going through? Scum JOAT probably doesn't have two shots at a roleblock, so unless they have some other way to interfere with night abilities, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that the neighbourise didn't work if Kthx is town.

First, I thought Bert was town at the end of day 1. I was pretty miffed at a lot of other players because of the wagon on me and the complete resistance to my thoughts over the "weak" stuff, so I went with Bert for neighborizing. It was more of a whim than a calculated decision. I do not know why it failed.

I didn't end up on the Mastin wagon because it went down mostly while I wasn't around. I didn't even really get a chance to comment on it before it was done.

So what if Kthx isn't town? I'm not seeing any reasons from him for attacking me. Scum saving me for a late game mislynch seems pretty reasonable, given the resistance to a lot of my ideas so far. I'm not scum, just unpopular.

Kagami, I'm not following your reasonsing so much. "No sane scum team would do this"... but isn't that what you think they did? I'm confused. Could you elaborate?

I think Brian and Kthx are pretty obviously our two remaining scum. Kagami, Bro, and BRD are pretty solidly town. And if anyone is hiding, it's Brian. Brian should be our lynch today. He didn't vote on day 2 or 3 at all. He's been avoiding taking definite stands and has done everything he can to fly under the radar. His vote on Mastin looked like a last minute joining to bus a teammate when it looked like a forgone conclusion.

VOTE: Brian

Let's not make someone replace into a doomed scumslot just to die.

[Paschendale]

Well, I finally have internet set up. This move has been really horrendous. Not that there still isn't a ton of stuff still to do, but at least I can tick staying in my mafia games off the list.

So, wagon on me... why?

So this would partially explain why a hypothetical town-Paschendale would target Bert, but it is not what I am interested in. I am aware ye had a town read on Bert at the end of D1, I am also aware that ye reiterated yer thoughts on Bert on D2 several times, noting he was still a town read despite the hammer. Then near the end of D2 when mastin was a viable wagon, ye changed yer read on Bert and voted him. This is what does not add up.

What doesn't add up? That Bert did things on day 2 that changed my read on him? How does that confuse you. He didn't contribute, didn't push his ideas, didn't do all the things I thought that he was going to do on day 2. This can easily be gleaned from my interactions with him during the day. The transition was not sudden at all.

This is also false. On D3 ye were around when it was happening (I specifically asked ye about it and ye responded to me), but I was actually referring to D2 when I mentioned the mastin counter-wagon (mastin was the counter-wagon to Bert, the person ye reversed yer read on). Ye were around when it was happening. And ye voted someone who was previously a strong town read over it.

I never really saw Mastin as a counterwagon to Bert. Mainly because those who were advocating for it weren't doing any kind of job selling it. I still honestly don't know why people voted for him day 3. It was never explained well. I suppose you haven't been paying any attention, but the lack of clarity from a lot of players in this game has been pissing me off for a lot of it.

And I am always willing to revisit a previously strong read, especially a previously strong townread. Anyone who locks themselves in by not doing that loses games. But you're completely wrong about what was going on day 3 over Mastin. I was still waiting for an explanation of why anyone was voting for him when he died. I was trying to engage and get some answers. They never came.

Also, I was likely targeted last night due to the no kill and my use of my 3D maneuver. I was heavy on Pasche yesterday so either he's scum wanting me gone or he's being set up. Thing is, if he's town, at least one scum has to be voting him right this second as it takes 4 to lynch and he has 2 votes. I know I'm not scum and due to flavor of my role (the knowing Ymir is in this game and I would be very sad if he died...Bro claiming to Ymir), I think Bro is town as well. So, that's at least 1 if not 2 town votes on Pasche. Only way Pasche isn't scum is if BRO is scum. If BRO is scum, I shall be unhappy with the MOD as flavor all but makes him town. The penalty isn't so bad if his dies (no vote but hammer vote counts), but still, I will stick to flavor at this point.

I wasn't around at all during the last night. I didn't even know that Kaze was lynched until the night was over. The end of day 4, all of night 5, and the beginning of day 5 happened during my V/LA period... so how could I have influenced anything that happened during the night?

Also the reason there are not two scum on my wagon yet is that Brian wasn't around to be on it with you.

I see some nitpicks, but why exactly am I the favorite here? The closest thing to concrete evidence against me is that I wasn't on Mastin's wagon, and I've explained exactly why several times and still feel like there's very little factual discussion going on in this game and it PISSES ME OFF. It's almost like trying to decipher a strange dialect that people are speaking really quickly.

I think Kthx's push on me is absolutely a matter of leaving a controversial player for a late game mislynch. I've been clashing with a lot of people over a lot of topics and have no allies who are willing to go to bat for me. Does that make me scum? Of course not. And it's a stupid reason to actually let the scum driven wagon on me go through. Scum left me alive, I'm sure, specifically for this reason. I'm guilty of not making any friends while hunting scum, nothing more. That's been the tone set for me this whole game, ever since fighting with Kagami and Pie on day 1. I've been coming up with ideas and fighting for them the whole game, and trying my best to help town win. Kagami and Bro, who have been here and paying attention the most during the whole game, should know this.

Scum is Kthx and Displaced. I am certain of this.

[Paschendale]

What, you want town points for not pushing your pet mislynch hard enough when it didn't look like a slam dunk anymore? It's hardly my fault that Displaced didn't have instructions to vote me right away to help you win.

On that note, though, people should take their votes off of me so that he can't do that when he gets back. I'd really like to not have town lose this game due to laziness.