Mini 1397: War is Hell (Game Over)

[Kinetic]

Oh--Kinetic, I read your point 3. Have to mull, read more, etc. The problem with a game without deadlines is that I procrastinate on reading and then refuse to make snap decisions, so I'm kind of freezing up and complaining about general lack of usefulness from half the players. >.> Anyway, study today, game tomorrow.

><

Would it help if I gave you a deadline? We kind of need your decision. Its currently 2v2 and if Qui scum is forced to, he is probably going to vote me no matter how scummy it looks and then Zed will use that as an excuse to kill me, again no matter how scummy that looks. You are kind of needed, and kind of needed now. I'm not trying to "whine" about it, but, the game kind of fucking lingers in your hands right now. The sooner you make a decision the sooner this game is won. We really don't have time for you to just start to read 100+ pages.

[Kinetic]

unvote; vote Zed

I might

might

be able to entertain a possible Xalxe/Zed pairing, but I sincerely doubt that. Zed/Qui seems most likely.

Zed needs to die IMO. That's three votes on him. Xalxe has two, Zed is still voting me last I checked. Time to kill Zed?

[Kinetic]

I was on Qui, I double checked. I thought I had moved it over to Zed a bit ago, but apparently I hadn't. I'm trying to remember why now.

[Kinetic]

Se, that is why I never accept mid-of-line votes in the games I run. You were already voting Zdenek:

Follow me Tierce, kill Zed, use your rage. Tap into your hate, you know you want to. vote:Zed Come now, let's kill this scum bag off and move on, k?

Ah, so I was. I thought I changed my vote too. ha, well, anyways... kill time?

[Kinetic]

Tierce's change of read on me is inexplicable.

Kinetic is busy pushing to violate his own rules. I'd go find the quote, but you should probably just trust me.

You have 3 votes bud. That's half the people playing. While I'd prefer 4, 3 is pretty much enough to kill at this point. But nice try scum.

[Kinetic]

It's bizarre Kinetic and if you're town, it makes absolutely n

What's bizarre? People are finally starting to realize you're scum? Seems completely sane to me. But I'm sure you have 4 (or 5) scum reads now, don't you. You basically call out everyone but KKB in that post. Throwing whatever at the wall just to see if it sticks?

[Kinetic]

No Kinetic. I just that if you're town, you're a thoughtless fool.

Are you... Are you trying to sympathize with me while you're doing you best to try and get me killed and voting for me? Are you basically saying 'Kinetic, why don't you think I'm town anymore?' Like I have some reason to believe this isn't just what it is, an attempt to try and garner sympathy and try to turn me onto one of my two town reads over my biggest scum read? Yet, at the same time, are trying to say its bizarre that my two town reads are voting my biggest scum read over... voting me?

Do you understand how ridiculous that is. Maybe if you were voting someone else and trying to convince me they are scum you might have some leg to stand on, but you are basically calling me a fool because I'm not suspicious about my two biggest town reads are not listening to you and voting me...

[Kinetic]

HURT: zed

[Kinetic]

I'm taking bets, 2:1 that Zed will flip on his Xalxe read within the next 3 pages. Any takers?

Dammit, I was two pages off. Well, Zed just claimed scum as far as I'm concerned.

[Kinetic]

I have not, I was planning to wait and see if both you and Tierce did before I did any raging. Also thinking about saving it, if something goes wrong a townie with some rage could be the difference between winning and losing. You might want to use yours though so they don't kill you while you're holding rage since you seem to be the scum's target now.

[Kinetic]

Can you guys please force Kinetic to use up his rage to kill me? Since he's scum and all, you probably don't want him to have as much.

As if I needed more reason to hold rage than scum telling me I should use it... lol

[Kinetic]

What's your problem with 2866?

Posturing.

How do you expect people to be able to 'force' something? Under threat of lynch? Why haven't you commented on my Voided/LLD/Kinetic reply to kanye, which I believe is solid evidence that Kinetic is not aligned with LLD? Are you seriously proposing that scum-LLD

did not want

Town-Voided to fight scum-Kinetic's battles when possible? It's one thing to bus, another quite different to deliberately pull the rug out from under your partner.

It goes deeper than that. Void was on my side. LLD was trying to undermine Void in thread, Zed was trying to undermine me in thread, and when neither of those things worked, Zed/LLD killed Void.

[Kinetic]

So, looks like we had some rage go into Xalxe then. I'm willing to bet there will be more rage soon. KKB, start hurting on Zed please. I'm assuming the extra damage on Zed came from Tierce. If I'm doing the math right, Qui, myself, KKB and Xalxe have some rage left. Xalxe should use his so he isn't snuffed out by scum with open rage. Zed is the best target.

For now KKB and I should hold onto our rage. If Qui uses his on someone we kill Qui. If he doesn't, we hold it until the right time. Sound good? I think we've got them cornered now. But for now, all rage/hurts should focus on Zed to kill him fast. Last thing we need is him continuously gaining rage and funneling it into town players.

[Kinetic]

Look at the scum struggle. Its adorable. It now has scum reads on 4 of the 6 players in the game.

[Kinetic]

HURT: zed
Tierce, are you sure you're off cd yet?

[Kinetic]

If you raged him last night Xalxe your hurt CD might not be up. If I read the rules right you won't be able to hurt until 24 hours AFTER the raging.

Also, Tierce, I think you might be off. If you raged before you posted you might be fine, but if you raged when you posted that was around 10-15 minutes after my hurt, which would put you still on CD when you hurt today.

[Kinetic]

I see no point in responding to you scum. You're going to flip scum, you admitted it when you jump raged/hurt Xalxe, a person you had not 5 pages ago, was confTown. If you flip town, you are the single worst townie I've ever played with. And I've played with roflcopter, Empking, and Zwet in their prime.

[Kinetic]

I'm not flipping scum. Reply.

lol

[Kinetic]

So where I'm at now:

KKB is still most likely town.
Xalxe still town.
Quilford is my weakest town read.

Assuming two scum:
Tierce is scum.
Kinetic is scum.

Yawn.

[Kinetic]

Zed, I'm curious, why are you trying to persuade Xalxe of anything when you're going to kill him in ~12 hours when your CD comes up, unless KKB kills you?

[Kinetic]

lol. So, you think maybe if you pull up, and keep Xalxe at the point where you can kill him at anytime, maybe he will think you're town? As if the first 7 damage were just shit under the rug?

[Kinetic]

Well, kanye has refused to take a stand on either me OR you, and Quilford is attacking me, so at this point, no.

Why is attacking you scummy?

you're fucking delusional. You're not just attacking him, you're

hurting

him. This went beyond just attacking, you said "I'm so sure you're scum, I am going to do permanent injury to you, and if I am town, risk the game on the fact that I'm right."

[Kinetic]

Nope.

Now, answer my question. Who's scum after I flip town?

lol. no. make me scum.

[Kinetic]

Well, kanye has refused to take a stand on either me OR you, and Quilford is attacking me, so at this point, no.

Why is attacking you scummy?

you're fucking delusional. You're not just attacking him, you're

hurting

him. This went beyond just attacking, you said "I'm so sure you're scum, I am going to do permanent injury to you, and if I am town, risk the game on the fact that I'm right."

That's what he's doing to me, doesn't make him scum though, and besides when I said attacking, I meant hurting.

Its more than that. You used the first hurt, while we were still discussing everything. If you had voted instead of just hurting, we could have still discussed things, that would have been the townie move. You jumped though, you flinched, you knew you might die, and as scum, you knew that if you did you lost. Town wouldn't think that way. Town would be OK with dying if it lead to finding scum.

If you are town, you made an even

worse

play. You took someone who was a town read not five pages ago, and basically said, if you're not scum, I'm committed to

losing the game

because I made the wrong decision.

It makes zero sense as town to

hurt

when you did, and all the sense in the world to hurt instead of vote as scum.

We all know you're scum now. Not even your buddy can protect you. No one will listen to you, because,

even if by some stretch of the imagination you are town, you are the worst town player to have ever played mafia.

Why in the hell would anyone with town interests at heart listen to what you have to say?

[Kinetic]

Oh Kinetic, you're such scum.

[Kinetic]

No hurts were made, although I was OK with starting to hurt, I didn't jump the gun because I wanted discussions to continue.

You sent the first hurt AND you raged into Xalxe.

Don't act like I made you do that. That was your own choice. The reason why

you're

scum is that you never fucking admit when you do something, it is always someone else's fault. That is scum logic.

[Kinetic]

I've given my reads. You and Qui are scum. KKB might be third party, but possibly not. Xalxe/Tierce seem town right now.

What I'm refusing to do is give reads "assuming" you're town. You're not. You're scum. End of Story. Scum.

[Kinetic]

Based on your failure to act like town, I severely doubt that.

[Kinetic]

Just out of morbid curiosity, what are

your

reads? Because, right now I think I could guess them. (Kinetic/Xalxe/Tierce are scum, Qui is town, KKB you're not sure of, if he hurts you scum, if he hurts xalxe town?)

[Kinetic]

I think KKB is town; since the LLD business, I have thought that he is very unlikely to be scum. The fact that you keep insinuating otherwise is

garbage.

evidence that you've played in many more games than me, and many more theme games, and can understand how theme games are built.

Fixed that for you.

How do you expect this to go. Do you expect me to suddenly go "Oh, you must be right Zed, the two people who are attacking you with me are obviously scum, let me help you kill them?"

Or do you not care who flips among myself, Xalxe and Tierce, just the fact that if any of us lets up you might survive just a tad bit longer.

You're posturing if you think

anyone

believes you won't kill Xalxe as soon as you're able. You're lying if you think anyone believes you suddenly think I'm town. Your reads are convenient. That is what they have always been. There is no analysis behind them. There is nothing but blatant opportunism. Not even KKB believes you. I have no idea what Qui is doing, but frankly, being your scum buddy is the only thing that makes sense.

You are scum. Plain and simple. And I will be happy when you are finally put down.

[Kinetic]

Well?

[Kinetic]

There's a much simpler explanation Zed, and its what I've been saying all along, using rage isn't a smart idea for town unless they're absolutely sure its the right call. We can kill you fast enough with hurts. If you were attacking me, I'd use my rage because it would be lost otherwise, but you're not. Plus, I've been waiting for Flay to update damage so I knew exactly where everyone was.

Either way, whether you kill Xalxe or not, I'm going to hurt you when my time comes up. As will Tierce, as will Xalxe. Your last ditch effort to avoid death isn't going to work scum.

[Kinetic]

I'm not in control of Zed apparently. -.-; Yup, that's right, I am the one in control of Zed's actions, forcing him to do what I tell him to do. Frankly, its an interesting gambit, right before Tierce and myself are supposed to hurt you, you buy some time for something, or you try and get me to waste my rage on you. I'm not exactly sure why you want me to do that, but I'm sure there is some scum explanation. I'll pass. I've got to leave for work, and when I get there I'll hurt you.

[Kinetic]

EBWOP:

I'm no

w

in control of Zed apparently. -.-; Yup, that's right, I am the one in control of Zed's actions, forcing him to do what I tell him to do. Frankly, its an interesting gambit, right before Tierce and myself are supposed to hurt you, you buy some time for something, or you try and get me to waste my rage on you. I'm not exactly sure why you want me to do that, but I'm sure there is some scum explanation. I'll pass. I've got to leave for work, and when I get there I'll hurt you.

[Kinetic]

*The Marquis Sabnach sighs, a bit exasperated.*

Seriously, King Paimon, you have been this thorn in my side for far too long. But to think, you came so close to revealing me. But your own rage got the best of you. 

*Cracks begin to form around the Marquis body, light pouring from each one. Suddenly, you realize too late that the Marquis is not who you once believed him to be. Standing before you is none other than Sasnagiel, loyal Seraph of Heaven.*

HURT WITH A BLADE: Xalxe

*Sasnagiel takes his sword and plunges it into the back of the Marquis Naberius. The Marquis looks stunned as the shining blade suddenly sprouts from his chest. He has just enough time to turn his unbelieving eyes to Sasnagiel before slowly falling to the ground, his life extinguished.*

And my my my, Sir King Paimon, do you believe you have lived so long? It is simple. I allowed it. You have been dancing on my strings this whole time, and you just are now beginning to see your error. But it is too late. The grace of Heaven has already decided, and the Metatron will be freed. 

I would wish God to have mercy on your souls, but I plan to extinguish those now. Goodbye. 

[Kinetic]

It's not technically over, although KKB is dead tierces still alive. We will fix that shortly though.

[Kinetic]

See Flay. But it's over for all intents and purposes. I've already submitted kills on kkb and zed.

[Kinetic]

http://www.dota2wiki.com/images/6/6d/Dl ... ple_01.mp3

[Kinetic]

>< Albert is a liar I think...

[Kinetic]

Oh. Well. Either way.

[Kinetic]

I played the game as if I were town. But then just slightly changed things as I needed to make it so that town were dying as much as possible. Although the void kill probably wasn't the best idea. In the end, jeez, it was so close too. I thought we'd lost so many times.

[Kinetic]

Haha, remember when we decided "fuck waiting, let's just kill everybody" after MattP died and then our evil plans went horrifically wrong

O god. KKB nearly died, and then Flay came back and we panic un-graced lololol.

[Kinetic]

I did. But at the same time, killing anyone was pretty much an instant death.

[Kinetic]

Because we'd have been out of grace/rage, and without it we couldn't do anything. We had to make town make ONE more mistake. They made two though and it was an easy win then. They made like 5... 1) Zed hurting Xalxe, 2) Zed raging Xalxe, 3) Xalxe hurting Zed, 4) Tierce hurting Zed, 5) Xalxe raging Zed, 6) Tierce raging Zed. Really, it was completely town to NEVER use rage, because if they had rage at end game it kept making it harder for us to win. That's why we killed KKB, he had rage left. The only townie who did.

[Kinetic]

Nominations for scummys are acceptable. This game was like walking through a fucking mindfield wearing a blindfold. I still can't believe we won.

Also, Yos HAD to die, because I knew that if he got to end game he'd be able to out argue me. So it was my mission to make up a load of horse shit to get him killed once I had a moment.

[Kinetic]

Skill man. And fog of war. You knew things the others didn't, hence you could see me being scummy. They had no idea.

[Kinetic]

Killing kanye was a goal, but there was never a good time. Each time I wanted to go through with it, the though of leaving us with no grace/rage gave me hives.

[Kinetic]

Yeah, fog of war and skill helped, but you should have been on a shortlist of "if still alive when X people are dead, nuke him". Nightless games are a problem for the skilled in rhetoric.

At the same time, the Angels WASTED an incredible amount of Grace that they couldn't earn through not using the points they had. They merely lucked out that if the Demons wanted to use it at all, it largely got aimed at their own teammates. Still, I think this game came closer to balance than any of the previous Angel Nightless. WIH2 was good at endgame, but it had the 3rd-party ringer.

We couldn't use it thanks to the huge hole of, if we rage, it leaves open an exact list of who must have raged. I mean, I

cleared

quadz and Zed with that hole. Granted, I took it back later, but town me would have crusaded to keep them alive. Scum were stuck not using rage because of the huge drawback of being able to be caught without an Oph seeing it.

[Kinetic]

There was a nice intersection of the sets {people who think Kinetic is scum} and {people who the town wants dead} that probably helped.

I was very good at making those sets equivalent. Although damn Tierce kept Zed alive all fucking game. I wanted him dead SO many times...

[Kinetic]

Yeah, fog of war and skill helped, but you should have been on a shortlist of "if still alive when X people are dead, nuke him". Nightless games are a problem for the skilled in rhetoric.

At the same time, the Angels WASTED an incredible amount of Grace that they couldn't earn through not using the points they had. They merely lucked out that if the Demons wanted to use it at all, it largely got aimed at their own teammates. Still, I think this game came closer to balance than any of the previous Angel Nightless. WIH2 was good at endgame, but it had the 3rd-party ringer.

We couldn't use it thanks to the huge hole of, if we rage, it leaves open an exact list of who must have raged. I mean, I

cleared

quadz and Zed with that hole. Granted, I took it back later, but town me would have crusaded to keep them alive. Scum were stuck not using rage because of the huge drawback of being able to be caught without an Oph seeing it.

Also, hence why I killed Yos. I'm sure as shit he'd have put 2 and 2 together eventually. Didn't know anyone else really in game well enough, save maybe Matt, who could have done that. Luckily I had Matt fooled all game long, until he died. Nearly cost me as KKB turned on me too, but another lucky break when KKB relaxed as well. If anything, Qui's push on Xalxe in the end sealed it for the scum. Getting KKB to move on Xalxe, and getting Zed to RAGE Xalxe was absolutely amazing.

[Kinetic]

We couldn't use it thanks to the huge hole of, if we rage, it leaves open an exact list of who must have raged.

You also figured out the workaround for that; Hurt or Heal right before you Rage. Town-you would have stuck with the limited-pool-Hurt plan.

True, but the problem being is it eventually would have been obvious who was hurting right before someone was killed with rage/grace. More than once becomes a pattern that I did not want to give more data to. So I knew the next kill had to be the last. All the extra grace didn't matter once we were full.

[Kinetic]

I don't mind posting the scum thread, if Qui and LLD are ok with it.

[Kinetic]

Was there a green room, Flay?

Yup: http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/A2hBf8eZvCT

So much gold in that thread. Glad Matt died when he did <3.

[Kinetic]

http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/eKUadMBvfTLd

[Kinetic]

Such contempt for this game

It never happened in my mind, doo dee doo

<3 You don't love me anymore?

[Kinetic]

Void: I wanted to kill Kanye, Albert and lld overruled me and wanted you. Sowwy!

[Kinetic]

*shrug* Don't really remember

[Kinetic]

If it makes you feel better, there were many times I purposefully antagonized you because I knew it would throw you off and make everyone else think I was the reasonable one. <3 I really didn't mean half of what I said.

[Kinetic]

Oh, that reminds me, I figured out a way to break this game for town mid-way through the game that would have 100% ensured a town win. Well, 80%. Well, as I think about it, its more like 75%, but its still pretty cool. I think I'm going to hold it to myself though until next game .

[Kinetic]

How did PV's attack miss me?

[Kinetic]

I only see Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:40 pm and then Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:58 am. Maybe I missed one.

This. His second hurt was like 12 hours late...

[Kinetic]

Ahh. That would explain it.

[Kinetic]

The problem with this type is the more its run the more the mechanics are being figured out. Everyone having rage worked this time only because town didn't coordinate. Or more specifically I got right in the middle and muddled that coordination just enough. Hell this time We got a heal plan going on. That was something. But as I complained about in the scum thread, town rage pretty much made end game almost unwinable absent town basically double killing themselves. We got lucky, on top of everything else.

I think if its run again the mechanics will need another refresher of some type. I'll think on it, but no thoughts just yet on what that might need to be.

[Kinetic]

I think this is part of the reason I think feel the rage mechanic is the one that needs the tweak. Something a bit more fresh that could give scum a more reliable kill would do wonders for the game as a whole. I hesitate to discuss exactly what I'm thinking, to prevent their use from being, well, useful, in the next game. Surprise will always be somewhat of an important mechanic in this type of game as well.

[Kinetic]

Feel free to PM me, but it would have to be a pretty good sell.

Let me think on it first. I'll have to have my thoughts in order before making such a suggestion, and I'm not quite sure what that suggestion might be yet.