Mini #1004 - Popularity Mafia (Over)

[Tasky]

Hi everybody... have a good game

here are some thoughts:
I think it's obvious that more discussion is better than less discussion. Also I think that neighborhood is always good, since each neighbor can interrogate the other independently from the thread, so that scum has to respond to questions and can not just lurk or hope that others respond for him.
Another extremely favorable point is that a cop could investigate a neighbor and if he gets innocent he can talk to that person in private and build an active "townie-cell" (therm borrowed from another forum) which helps protect the cop and get information to the town...
of course scum could pretend to be the cop, but that would be a big risk for them and would expose them... so this too is pro-town
now, since having more neighbors is better than having less neighbors, I think a mass popularity claim will exactly achieve that...
I think power-roles and scum are distributed somehow randomly over the popularity scala so I don't think it would help them find the power-roles.
once we have such a thing, I think it would be best that everyone at night talks to the one who is just one step under them in the popularity scala, so that everyone (save nr.1 and nr.12) has 2 neighbors and there is no one who doesn't have a neighbor...
I think it's kind of obvious that scum will not try to fake their popularity, that would just too easily give them away... so I see no reason why this shouldn't work

still I'm going to wait until the majority agrees before I start outing my popularity-index, maybe someone has a good argument against it.

PS: since we technically are still in RVS, VOTE: Friend cause he is scaring that poor cat...

[Tasky]

first, I'd like to bring up the good old IioA-point... we shouldn't worry so much abut the setup...nobody would be so stupid to fake a popularity change, that could so easily be verified, it would just out them as scum... so even if there are popularity-manipulating roles, I really don't see the problem...
and I really don't see the big power of such (hypothetical) manipulating roles you attribute them...

second, I am ranked

eleventh

in popularity

third, please don't talk about other games if they are not relevant to scumhunting in this game

Not ignoring it, but distracted by looking for patterns in popularity when we get flips.

it seems to me that you are saying that the additional information that could arise due to popularity is bad... how can more info be bad?

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

this is the current popularity list (hope I didn't miss anybody):
1. ??
2. ??
3. Scott Brosius
4. ??
5. vollkan
6. ??
7. ??
8. Friend
9. ??
10. Andrius
11. Tasky
12. ??

[Tasky]

I don't like how Tasky brings up IIoA and then posts a handful of IIoA. It's hypocritical.

no... just gave a reason to stop IioA...

[Tasky]

I'd like to try something new in this game, otherwise it gets boring...
I'll start a wagon...
UNVOTE: Friend
VOTE: Vollkan

I'd like a lot of people to join me...

[Tasky]

You writing out the list, while helpful, was also IIoA.

lol... no... go reread the IioA definition
[/quote]

And why would you like to start a wagon on vollkan, who has arguably been one of the most pro-town players so far in this early game?

for fun... and for a reason that I'll tell later (it would self-nullify if told)

[Tasky]

don't expect it to be something monstrous... just a "trick" to find scum...
I'm currently asking the mod whether I'm allowed to post it as an anagram so I can later confirm that I didn't make it up afterwards

[Tasky]

unvote; vote: Tasky

You want a wagon, you got a wagon.

oh yeah... have to jump on that... after all I hate bandwagons, right?
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Tasky

[Tasky]

He probably won't allow an anagram, dude.

yeah, he didn't allow it

Ok wow. Can we refrain from self-voting? It doesn't do anything besides make us wonder why you're doing it.

ok
UNVOTE:

[Tasky]

first, I'd like to bring up the good old IioA-point... we shouldn't worry so much abut the setup...nobody would be so stupid to fake a popularity change, that could so easily be verified, it would just out them as scum... so even if there are popularity-manipulating roles, I really don't see the problem...
and I really don't see the big power of such (hypothetical) manipulating roles you attribute them...

I'm going to be using my 0 = town, 100 = scum scaling for everybody in this game, as I am trying to get back into the habit of it. Basically, everybody starts at 50. Scumtells push it up, towntells down.

The above merits a +2. Reason being is that IIoA, while it is always an easy label for lazy scum to throw around, is not a scumtell at page 3 of a game where not even everybody has yet to post. Moreover, whether or not you think that the chances of popularity-manipulating roles is likely (and I note that nobody has suggested that it is), it's clearly something that due diligence required us to address in relation to the mass pop-claim strategy.

And, as others have already pointed out, it smacks of hypocrisy that you would accuse other people of IIoA and then have IIoA yourself. To be clear, my problem is not with your IIoA, it is with your

hypocrisy of attacking people

for IIoA

where exactly did you see an attack in the above?
I didn't attack anyone for IioA, I just pointed out that it is pointless and that we should altogether stop... nothing more, nothing less
nowhere in that post do I say someone is scummy for that

Now that you are no longer wagonning me (despite the fact that you haven't had any response from me), mind saying what your mystery reason for wagonning me was?

no... the reason was not about wagoning

you

... I just picked you because you had most votes... the reason is about wagoning

someone

... the problem is just that atm there is no wagon-target who I could wagon (since you all despise self-voting)...

ok, now something serious:

almost forgot I was in this game. Popularity is a good idea and I was definitely considering it coming into this game.

Claim Seventh

I highly diskile this post... I know Seraphim just a little, but I looked a little through his other games and he usually likes to start a wagon on someone slightly scummy early... what bugs me is that he didn't vote for me (I know this sounds strange, I hope you understand how I mean this)... after all I was top-pick for such an early wagon
so, either he just didn't see my random-bandwagon-start or he wanted to hold back to not be suspicious...
or there is another reason I can't come up with... please tell me...
since there is nothing better for now: VOTE: Seraphim

[Tasky]

... lot of stuff ...

first please don't post inside the quotes... it get's hard to respond to that...
"But how often would this have to happen?"
I don't really get the question...
I was just trying to say, that when everybody has a neighbor, (like in the everyone-targets-the-person-right-under-them-in-popularity-way) a cop can investigate one of his neighbors, so that he has someone to talk to in case he has an innocent result without having to fear exposure...

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

I think we should agree on some pre-fixed order for neighborizing, otherwise scum could avouid having to talk too much more easily...
there should really be a good reason not to hold too such a pre-fixed order...
IMO, the everyone-targets-the-person-right-under-them-in-popularity-way is a good one, since it can not be influenced by scum...

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

You accused players of IIoA. When the phrase "IIoA" is used, it is always used in the context of an attack. If you didn't mean it that way, you shouldn't have used that particular phrase. It's the same as when player X might make a mistake in expressing their understanding of player Y's views, and then player Y calls it a "misrepresentation", rather than just an "error". In short, it's inflated language.

The reason we have label scumtells like "contradiction", "IIoA", etc. is precisely so that we don't always have to go: "You did X. X is scummy."

I intended it in the sense: "let's stop focusing on the setup, because that's pointless, [then I explain why], do scumhunting instead"
for me the therm IioA doesn't implicitly carry an attack...

no... the reason was not about wagoning you... I just picked you because you had most votes... the reason is about wagoning someone... the problem is just that atm there is no wagon-target who I could wagon (since you all despise self-voting)...

I'm calling your bluff. I want a vote to force Tasky to reveal his reason. Obviously, I vote in favour.

as I said, nothing major, and nothing about you... I just wanted people to attack me, so I could try to get reads on them based on how they attack (or not attack) me... attacks on others are more difficult to read, since I don't know their roles, so I wanted to try this out... this are my first games online, I have to do some experiments and see if they work...

PS: why do you talk about wanting to force a vote but then go on to unvote?

[Tasky]

It was an idea to end day 1 early so that scumhunting might be easier. I wasn't even saying every day, I was saying day 1

I NEVER claimed that the quicklynch thing was a joke

so you really think depriving us of the only weapon we have against scum, discussion, will be good for town?
whatever tactics you may want to use during the first night with your neighbor, they are only going to be more effective if you have more info... it's not like the night-talking is going to run away
so please answer, do you

really

think this?

[Tasky]

I think we should agree on some pre-fixed order for neighborizing, otherwise scum could avouid having to talk too much more easily...
there should really be a good reason not to hold too such a pre-fixed order...
IMO, the everyone-targets-the-person-right-under-them-in-popularity-way is a good one, since it can not be influenced by scum...

Definitely not.

Yes, it makes it slightly easier for scum. But it also prevents town from targeting where they think they can have the most impact.

I don't agree with this... giving everyone free choice let's scum more room to dodge discussion... and you are forgetting that scum could be hiding in the crowd during day and not let you spot them, so that you never even think about talking to them at night... but since by the mentioned method everybody has to talk to somebody, that's just not possible...
if you think somebody is scum, you say it in the thread and then by the method there are usually two neighbors who can do the interrogation... it is highly unlikely that both are scum, so that at least on interrogation will be done by a townie... and if your reasons for thinking someone was scum were good, that townie will understand them and do a good interrogation

[Tasky]

I meant everybody votes to force you to reveal your reason.

I support this. I'm still curious as to what the mystery reason was.

I already told...

as I said, nothing major, and nothing about you

*

... I just wanted people to attack me, so I could try to get reads on them based on how they attack (or not attack) me... attacks on others are more difficult to read, since I don't know their roles, so I wanted to try this out... this are my first games online, I have to do some experiments and see if they work...

*

you = vollkan

[Tasky]

I believe that freedom to choose whoever you want to befriend is the way to go, because of what somebody brought up- Scum can just take advantage of the extra information to plan their nightkills accordingly. I think this is bad.

But, you should claim who you befriended, why, and what your impressions during the night was

. Everyone, you should be aware who you talk to could be scum, and act accordingly. If i’m correct, everyone has claimed their popularity, so I believe that is all we really need to talk about the neighborzing thing. Now, can we leave that subject at rest?

[...]

I think it would be a bad idea to claim who we befriended

, until it is necessary, because if we claim, scum can use that information.

[...]

I see a quite big internal contradiction in this post... don't like it, but it doesn't stop here...

1)I believe that freedom to choose whoever you want to befriend is the way to go, because of what somebody brought up- Scum can just take advantage of the extra information to plan their nightkills accordingly.

1) how?

Scum can isolate people, prevent pairings they dont want, or maybe they can do more than that.

wait a moment... you say that "Scum can isolate people, prevent pairings they dont want"... and you say the way to avoid that is letting everybody pick his neighbor freely... but how exactly is that going to avoid letting scum do what they want? and wouldn't the "pick the one below you"-thing (or any other random, prefixed method) avoid this nicely and cleanly?
so, you are contradicting yourself again...

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

Tasky and Xite are both obvious targets today. I feel more strongly about Tasky, Xite is a pretty easy target for some of his posts I feel, and Tasky has taken advantage of this:

so you really think depriving us of the only weapon we have against scum, discussion, will be good for town?

Not much, but he's taking the opportunity to throw out attacks without actually calling someone scummy, FOS/Voting them etc.

how exactly do you make the equation ["take advantage of someone" = "asking someone a question"] ?

Xites wall-o-text seems like scum desperation.

wowowo... if everybody who likes to post wall-o-text was scum, we'd have to lynch almost everybody on MafiaScum...

putting those two things together it looks to me like Sando came here, saw the case against me and Xite and wants to join it... but he doesn't want to look like he is just blindly following the others, so he looks for some (rather poor) excuses to do so...
this looks very much like scum trying to get on a bandwagon...

therefore UNVOTE:
VOTE: Sando

[Tasky]

EBWOP:
I wanted to respond to this...

What else i dont like about him is: his very weak vote on Seraphrim. He is still holding that vote, and i do not see why. He is not even commenting on Sera anymore.
@Tasky- do you still find him scummy?

why exactly should I comment on Sera if he didn't post anything at all since I placed my vote? why should I change my vote if he didn't say anything that could make me change my mind? I just changed it now, because I got a bigger scum-tell from someone else.
yeah, until he answers me, I find him scummy... we'll see as soon as we hear from him

[Tasky]

how exactly do you make the equation ["take advantage of someone" = "asking someone a question"] ?

It's who you're attacking, it's an easy target, and it looks a lot like you wanted to get some easy shots in for the sake of it on an easy target.

so one shouldn't ask explanation for a post that just seems wrong? I mean, he was saying "It was an idea to end day 1 early so that scumhunting might be easier." I really cannot agree with this, so I asked him if he really meant it that way... I still don't see the "attack on a weak target"... why exactly was Xite an easy target there?

wowowo... if everybody who likes to post wall-o-text was scum, we'd have to lynch almost everybody on MafiaScum...

I said his wall-o-text looked scummy, I did not say that every wall-o-text is scummy, nice try though.

you never explained why his wall-o-text is scummy...

this is just gut, but the "nice try though"-thing really feels scummy... scum usually wants to point out that they just avoided something they feel is a trap...

[Tasky]

'Nice try though' was me sarcastically implying that it was in no way a nice try, and was in fact a terrible argument. How am I pointing out a trap? Do you know what a 'trap' is? Pointing out a fallacy in someones argument isn't scummy by the way, pretty sure it's a basic tenant of scumhunting in fact.

as I said, just gut...

Xite was an easy target because he made a blatantly rediculous suggestion. It's like picking on the newbie that suggest a no-lynch D1, it's an easy way to appear pro-town. It's so obviously a terrible idea, trying to make something of it like that is just trying to make yourself look pro-town in an easy way.

but he really believed it, and it was nonsense... not pointing that out would have been anti-town...
I didn't even vote him for that, just pointed out that his idea was ridiculously wrong...

I said it looked like scum-desperation, he starts getting a lot of attention, and he suddenly starts bringing up these major wall-o-texts.

and what should he have done? post nothing?
I still don't understand how posting wall-o-texts can be a scummtell

I'll stay on my opinion that you needed a reason to jump on the attack on Xite and still seem like you were proposing new ideas... the only thing you could come up with was that wall-o-text argument, which seems like a real null-argument to me... after all, everybody has his own posting style

[Tasky]

@tasky- I didnt even see that contradiction about claiming, hah. I was just typing whatever came to my mind as i read thru the thread. Now, I guess i should clarify my stance- What i meant was that I think that people shouldnt claim whoever they befriended right away, but when pressed, they have to have reasonings. The second one is not a contradiction i believe.

If scum know who is gonna befriend who during the night, They can manipulate that information to their advantage. If people exercised freedom of choice, scum does not know who people would befriend so it would lead to less information for scum

, thereby freedom of choice is better. I do not see where that is a contradiction. Your reasoning about Sera seems all right. I just found it odd that you just left the vote there, and not even change your mind about things. Now, you are moving things along. It seems okay to me.

if someone freely choses there are 2 possibilities:
1. he chooses scum, in this case scum will know
2. he chooses non-scum, in this case it won't matter since he won't get a scumread anyway...

therefore there is no advantage in choosing freely when it comes to information scum gets...
and since town has no information, and scum already has a lot, adding something to both sides will favor town greatly...
(to make this point clear, imagine a 5:0 situation... if you add 2 on bot sides, 7:2 is much better for the right side)
so actually I think the neighborizing should be as transparent and clear as possible...

I'm not sure what to make out of the interaction between Sando and Tasky. On one hand, it looks like Sando is truly attacking Tasky, and Tasky is OMGUSsing, But on the other hand, Tasky has a good point about Sando' weak reasoning. hmm.

since there are currently 4 votes on me (if I counted correctly), it's quite likely that at least one of them is scum... so OMGUS doesn't quite work here...

[Tasky]

@Tasky, on the contrary. neighbors targeted on N1 will take effect on N2. So if scum knows who the targets are on N1, they can plan kills on that knowledge, on N1. If people have freedom to choose, Scum will not have that knowledge until D3, so that would help the town, i think. Am i incorrect in my thinking here?

ah... now I finally understand your point... but if I understood this right, you get to talk to you N1 target immediately in N1...

Each passing period you may attempt talk to another student. If you are more popular then they are, you will start up a conversation with them.

from the rules... in my eyes this means the conversation starts immediately...

[Tasky]

- Do you feel that The Player

one

above you on the ranking list is scum?
- If you had to choose now who would you lynch?
- Who do you think is most town at this time?

I would like evidence and from these 11 posts I will determine who I feel is town and scum.

you mean 12 posts, right? you are not seriously expecting that we all answer and you don't?
please answer your own questions (since you don't have one above you in popularity, I'd suggest you answer question one on Xite who is nr.12)

1. Andrius: he looks somewhat relaxed, is quite active... all in all I'd give him a 0.01 out of the interval [-1; 1]
2. Sando, for the reasons I already stated
3. I somehow feel NicolBolas is quite pro-town (since I already mentioned Andrius)... just a feeling though, maybe 0.01 too

[Tasky]

Any created quicktopic will be available for use starting the next passing period (night phase) and lasts through the remainder of the game. They are only able to be used during passing periods. Talking in class will result in a trip to the prinicpal's office.

Mod said this. So you're incorrect with that.

ok... I missed that post...
still I'd like a confirmation from the mod on how

exactly

those neighborizings work...

[Tasky]

Nicol, the only problem with that is Max is using those questions to help him scumhunt. Let's say Max is town. He'll give his honest opinions and then scum will probably say something along those lines because they know that's what Max would want to hear. Answering his own questions ruins the whole point.

yeah... but you are making the assumption that he is town... that is still unproven and it isn't more likely that he is town just because he says so...

please answer your own questions (since you don't have one above you in popularity, I'd suggest you answer question one on Xite who is nr.12)

Well, I know my own alignment.

And I will be giving my opinions based solely on peoples responses to these questions. That will include Xite.

but I don't... and I'd like to have 11 other answers, not 10... so please answer those questions too

@friend- Ah, i see. Disregard my question then.

so you trust Max so much that you hand over the whole scum-hunting-business to him?

[Tasky]

Also dudes. Get used to sando, he gets going after a while, you'll warm to him .

Hi Max My non-abrassive game was just utter fail, so I stopped trying, back to my good old self

as I said, just gut...

What? Your gut, my gut?

For me saying "nice try" feels scummy...

but he really believed it, and it was nonsense... not pointing that out would have been anti-town...
I didn't even vote him for that, just pointed out that his idea was ridiculously wrong...

Yeah I know you didn't vote him, it's part of my point. You're continuing to insist that it was scummy, yet you didn't feel the need to vote him... This further reinforces that you were simply pointing it out for no real reason other than to appear townie.

wait... it's you insisting that it was scummy... I pointed out an error in his judgement, I did not attack him for that, I didn't even think he was scum, I just wanted a clarification... you are clearly trying to turn a worthless argument into something by manipulating evidence

Pretty sure Andrius put you at L-1, Trasky needs to claim. Vote goes back on if the next Trasky post isn't a claim.

I am not going to claim just because you threaten me... it would just hurt town...
all I need to claim is that I am town-alligned and that you are scum...


this is to everybody... please examine the discussion between me and Sando carefully... I really don't see how you can miss his obviously scummy behaviour...
he picked one point of attack and insisted on it manipulating all the rest of the discussion around it just to make it fit his idea... that's not a reasonable attack to me...
there should really be more votes on him by now...


PS: my name is Tasky, not Trasky...

[Tasky]

For me saying "nice try" feels scummy...

So now you're claiming it's a gut feel on your end? You actually said this at the time:

scum usually wants to point out that they just avoided something they feel is a trap...

Now you're just contradicting yourself, you had a reason, that scum wants to point out something, and now it's gut. Guts a great thing isn't it? You don't have to justify it, you don't get called out on it later.

I always said it was gut:

this is just gut

, but the "nice try though"-thing really feels scummy... scum usually wants to point out that they just avoided something they feel is a trap...

I see my including of the gut argument as a deliberately weak argument (although I didn't include it whit that in mind, thinking about it, I'm happy I did)...
the big difference in discussion between a townie and scum, is that scum want's to get information, and will agree with the "opponent" if they say something right... for a townie, it's not about winning the argument, it's about discovering the other's alignment...
scum on the other side, want to score points and want to win arguments... the way you attacked my "gut-feeling" argument, which in fact is (by far) the weakest of my arguments you are looking for a quick win over my arguments... the problem with that is that you do as if nullifying that argument will kill the whole case, while you still have to attack the other, the strong arguments...
if you were really interested in what I am saying, you would discuss more the major points (the one about you looking for reasons to copy other people votes without looking like copying)... instead, what did you do? you went for the weak argument, the one that wouldn't stand a chance alone if you really had a way to nullify the other arguments... and why? to make me look stupid, to score points in our discussion..
and that is a scum-tell, since townies don't want other people to look stupid, they want to find out their alignment...... (actually I had enough scum-tells, but now I'm even more sure)

How did I threaten you? I

removed

my vote specifically to give you some breathing room to claim. I did not want a quick-hammer to come in, especially as I believe there had been 3 votes on you since the last count, and it would be fairly easy for scum to come along and hammer then claim they didn't realise it was the hammer.

this seems a threat to me:

Pretty sure Andrius put you at L-1, Trasky needs to claim. Vote goes back on if the next Trasky post isn't a claim.

Sando, you are blatantly trying to make up inexistent contradictions, you manipulate what I say by quoting only partially and all that just so you don't have to admit your attack was wrong in the first place...

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@Tasky I read thru your posts and it is interesting how you are reacting to Sando's admittedly weak attack. Instead of proceeding with logic, you accuse him of being scum because he pointed fingers at you. Do you have any better reasons than just that Sando attacked you?

I think this has to be considered logic:

Tasky and Xite are both obvious targets today. I feel more strongly about Tasky, Xite is a pretty easy target for some of his posts I feel, and Tasky has taken advantage of this:

so you really think depriving us of the only weapon we have against scum, discussion, will be good for town?

Not much, but he's taking the opportunity to throw out attacks without actually calling someone scummy, FOS/Voting them etc.

how exactly do you make the equation ["take advantage of someone" = "asking someone a question"] ?

Xites wall-o-text seems like scum desperation.

wowowo... if everybody who likes to post wall-o-text was scum, we'd have to lynch almost everybody on MafiaScum...

putting those two things together it looks to me like Sando came here, saw the case against me and Xite and wants to join it... but he doesn't want to look like he is just blindly following the others, so he looks for some (rather poor) excuses to do so...
this looks very much like scum trying to get on a bandwagon...

therefore UNVOTE:
VOTE: Sando

as I already said, the OMGUS argument is invalid here... a lot of people happen to have a vote on me, if I were to attack only those who don't, because otherwise it would be OMGUS, I couldn't scum-hunt at all

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

@vollkan: ok, for me it's no big deal on which neighborizing strategy to use... as long as everybody has to publicly tell who they targeted last night... that way scum has no way to avoid night-discussion...

[Tasky]

To clarify the extent of your case against xite, could you please list your non-gut points briefly? Reason being is that, if it is true he only singled out a weak argument to attack, that is a valid scumtell; but the sheer size of your exchange with him means that each individual point isn't clear.

xite? you mean Sando...

ok... the main point was this post
he basically joins the discussion and wants to jump on the attack you guys carry on me and xite, whether that attack is valid or not is another story... since he doesn't want to look like he is just sheeping, he picks two very weak reasons (that question I asked and xites wall-o-text) just to join the bandwagon...
my problem is not with the attack on me/xite, it is how he blatantly does it for the wrong reasons, namely because everybody else does...
and even that could be ok, I mean, one can get convinced by other's arguments, but he didn't even admit this, but instead looked for reasons to join the wagon and look like he was actively scum-hunting...
my major posts are the second part of this one and this one

[Tasky]

since you are going to lynch me anyway, let me say some things for you to review later once I'm dead...
first thing, I want to apologize for that move with bandwagoning vollkan... I wanted it to be an experiment as a new scum-hunting method... basically, since I know that I'm town, it's easier for me to analyze attacks on my... analyzing attacks on others is more difficult, since you don't know their alignment... I will not do it again, experiment failed...
second thing... you wanted me to claim? since I am at L-1 I think I have no other choice...
I am The Foreign Exchange Student - Vanilla Student

now some comments:

1. lynch Sando d2, I already explained why, a lot of times

2. vollkan, just a note

To clarify the extent of your case against xite, could you please list your non-gut points briefly? Reason being is that, if it is true he only singled out a weak argument to attack, that is a valid scumtell; but the sheer size of your exchange with him means that each individual point isn't clear.

I don't like this post, he is basically saying that he doesn't want to read the exchange between me and Sando thoroughly since it's to big in size... I think a townie who is interested in scum-hunting would want to read it, reread it, and read it again if necessary...

3. friend, some things that I really dislike

xite, you didn't even respond to my last post. You saying I'm ignoring or shrugging off your case is a blatant lie.

Also:
UNVOTE: xite91
VOTE: Tasky

I'll put more pressure on. I think VV has a point about xite's overeagerness.

I don't like this post too... first he goes to push the xite case further, then he unvotes him... then he agrees again with the case on xite...
this seems like he wants to "casually" vote me, hoping someone will hammer soon...
especially after having stated this:

UNVOTE: Tasky
VOTE: xite91

This is too soon for claiming. While I still think Tasky is the scummiest, we need to talk more. Sando seems a little too aggressive.

this looks like the classic show "don't lynch yet, talk more" to earn town-cred... it's not bad by itself, but in conjunction with the previously quoted I really don't like it
in general, I have to say I liked the case against friend... after Sando, he is my second scum-pick atm

I have to go now, I'll submit since I don't want to get hammered before I get to post something...
if I come back and am still alive, I'll try to post more stuff you can work on once I'm dead...

[Tasky]

What do you mean by classic "don't lynch yet show" to earn town-cred? Where has this happened in games of yours?

let me explain... I am actually talking about face-to-face-mafia experience but this point should still hold...
often in mafia you get to a situation where a good part of the town wants to quickly lynch somebody...
and almost always someone (often myself) says that lynching so early is bad and that town should discuss more
now, common wisdom says, that quicklynching is bad for town... therefore one would assume that one who says that is town, but of course scum could fake it, so of course we get a WIFOM-situation... => telling not to quicklynch is actually a null-tell, but people like to do it anyways even as scum since it feels townish even if it isn't...
the problem with you saying it was that you didn't mean it... in fact you got on the wagon to put more pressure on, knowing exactly that I'd have to claim since I'd be ad L-1... but you had said just a couple of posts earlier that it was to soon for claiming... so I think you said
"This is too soon for claiming. While I still think Tasky is the scummiest, we need to talk more." in order to get some town-cred. then, as soon some time passed, you did the opposite of what you said, proving that you didn't say it because you meant it, but because you were faking it...

What about the case on me did you like?

the buddying argument...

By the way, I really don't like Tasky's heavy AtE in these posts - all the talk about "stuff to work on once I'm dead" just feels desperate.

I just see that I am at L-1 and that a lot of people think I am scum for reasons I partly don't understand, partly can't fight against (the vollkan-wagon affair), so I might as well stop defending myself and try to post my opinion straight, so at least town has more info to work with later...

[Tasky]

ISO on VasudeVa:

0-1:

introduction and jokes - nulltell

2:

Ugh. Tasky.

no explanation here

What the eff is with that vote on a reasonable first post? Succumbing to pressure?

don't understand who you are talking to, don't understand your point

More of Tasky's 'I didn't mean that I meant blabla'.

?

Xite is now cruising at VI territory. See how different his play is from Tasky's. Tasky's play is very defensive, and you can totally see some attempt at manipulation.

could you please point out examples of Xite being VI and me being manipulative?

Xite seems too agressive for newbscum. I'd think newbscum would be afraid of stepping on toes, especially of experienced and skilled players(like volkan.).

why do you assume that Xite is noob?

Xite seems like a newbie who genuinely believes in the stuff he's spewing. Myep.

again, why?

Tasky and NB's argument is not interesting. Both of them not understanding each other (NB's 'let me clarify my stance')

we were talking about the best night-action strategy... I think we understood us in the end

There is certainly some malice in his play.

examples please

Volkan finally gets some Player points. I wasn't convinced at first because of him stating some pretty disagreeable things (#26, for example.) but it looks like he can explain himself and even explain others well.

are you saying Vollkan is town? what correlation/causation do you see in being pro-town and being a good player?

Oh hey, there's me, being cool and awesome with a cool first post and promising a reread... WHICH I TOTALLY DELIVERED

joke... are you trying to earn town cred? it's not as if your post contained much tells

Tasky is a reasonable lynch.

I actually don't see you giving reasons for that in the whole post

I am slighly suspicious of Friend.(Although this might be me being subconciously affected by Xite's ramblings.)

this are the tings you say about friend:
-> "I like Friend's open-mindedness. Not really Townie, but it suggests wisdom which is a benefit for Town if he is one of us."
-> "I don't think Friend is buddying."
-> "Friend's 'It's too soon to be claiming' does not sit well with me at all."
while I agree with the third point, you are drawing conclusions from claims which are not supported by any evidence

I think that if we have a competent scumbag, it'll be Sando.

how can that be a conclusion since you didn't post even one thing about Sando?

I think the last part of the post is just useless, but it's a total null-tell for me...

3:

looking for town cred with an useless post?

4:

Why would you be 'pissed' if Tasky was quickhammered?

this made my scum-dar ring... so you really don't see what's so bad about quickhammering? it deprives town of valuable town to gather information, it denies the lynched the possibility to post, etc.
I think you are smart enough to know that, so that I think this is an absolute fake question so that you look like you are scumhunting

2. Tasky

still no reasons there

Sando vs Tasky was similar to one game of mine where skilled scum(SpyreX) pressured a newbie into slipping up until his lynch. I should have put that there somewhere though. Rereading in depth does that to you.
Vote: Tasky

so you say the Sando vs. me argument reminds you of scum vs. town and you go on to vote me? that's a big contradiction

5:

I'm feeling temporarily tired of the Tasky case(Although he is a fine deadline lynch.)

what made you change your mind?

Plus the Tasky wagon reeks of scum, possibly 2 of them in here(Right now, I'm thinking its Sando and Friend.).

again, no reasons here...

I'm not a fan of forced dichotomies (The 'Between me and xite who is scummier') which I see as a possible attempt to get Andrius on his side of the argument, and the back and forth vote hopping to two lynchbaits (Tasky and Xite.). I actually think that Town would just ignore Xite, but the 'between me and xite' post (and maybe the tunneling accusation) makes me think he's fearing the pressure.

the first post I like

---

I noticed that VasudeVa likes posting absolute statements that everybody should take as true, but almost never posts reasons for that statements...
I don't like that dogmatic approach to mafia...
so I'll

FoS: VasudeVa

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

PS @mod: I'll be

V/LA 15.07 - 31.07

[Tasky]

Please don't replace me... I found a way to get internet access, I'll be able to post something roughly evera 2/3 days, so I'll be able to continue the game...

[Tasky]

now to the debate about me being still alive:
in my opinion scum feared to hammer because of they wanted to see the responses to my "last will - post". I think it's highly unlikely all scum is/was on my wagon, but I think at least 2 of them were, so that the third feared that they would be caught with all of them on a towniewagon, so he didn't hammer.
I'm actually more surprised that there wasn't a townie who hammered. I'd actually like to hear your (all of you, if you are pro-town) explain why you didn't hammer.
That should give a lot of reads for me or for the rest of you in case I should die today.