Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[Pulindar]

Hey all, obviously I haven't finished reading, but I have read some of the sixth day. Let me go over it a bit more before I start posting for real.

Thank you iamausername for letting me join.

[Pulindar]

Imprint Iowa

I may not have finished reading everything, but I'm pretty sure that Iowa is town and I'd like for him to have a role before anyone else. I'm working on a comprehensive post for today right now, but I wanted to get this in there.

[Pulindar]

can you guys please get more in the habit of stating who you're quoting? it helps.

Also, farside please read the posts before yours. I've replaced Soc I'd appreciate if you used my name. You yelled at others early in the game for calling you a him, yet you're as blatantly ignoring what others say as they did you before.

Anyway, as for the content of your post. I'll get to that in the morning. I'm on page 75, and need to go to bed now. I'm doing a pretty conclusive report starting on day 6. I think you'll be quite satisfied.

[Pulindar]

Ah, who cares

As of partially down page 75 here are my thoughts.

Day Six

Ok guys, I know it's not the best, but I'm starting my read through on day six and then will go back and read through the rest with my day six information in mind. For now let me jot down my thoughts for the day

summary

ALASKA = SerialClergyman - Null Read, maybe slight scum
COLORADO = CrashTextDummie - Slight scum read, he flips from terrible to great posts and it's bothering me, but it's not a content inconsistency so...
FLORIDA = ortolan - Definitely scummy read. want to finish through the day before voting though
GEORGIA = Pulindar - it's me so... yeah
IOWA = xRECKONERx - Definite town read. that's why I voted for an imprint
KANSAS = farside22 - sorta town read, not weak, just not definite.
MONTANA = Pug89 - null, slightly scum read. not really sure. I need to read more posts by him.
VIRGINIA = elvis_knits - Null read, completely null read.

Who led the Buttonmen lynch? I’m not suspicious of the Reck hammer, but I’m not liking the leader of that lynch as much.

That same day reck unimprinted vel 20 minutes later. I can't see scum unimprinting one of their own while needing just one more player to imprint vel

The imprinting kind of works, unless all scum were already on and they didn't want to be related. Still I don't feel reck is scum here so... I guess I do agree with you, though I’m not sure on your logic. Yeah I don’t like your logic with this at all, you need to reevaluate it. I find you to be very town and want the best logic possible for your arguments.

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Reck

First thing I'd like to say, I like Reckoner's hammer on KOC. To me it doesn't seem like bussing, but like a guy who consistantly enjoys hammering. It spreads his hammer on button man a bit thinner in my mind.
I also like his responses to Elvis. They seem small, but solid to me.
To be fair though I hated the quotes elvis had of him. Still, I do like that he's trying to stay with a pattern, it shows a plan to get towards a town win. Also, I like his table that elvis points out. sure it's not perfect, but it did have one scum in the scum section, and he's continued generally with similar thoughts throughout it seems. I like how steadfast Reck seems. That to me is a townie trait.

Elvis

ok, the first things I read by him were some pretty comprehensive posts, that gave me a nice background for the game as it is. I liked that, also it seems in a way that he's scum hunting. But it could also be trying to push people on a wrong lynch.
Honestly I'm not sure about you yet Elvis, need to read more, but I think you're pushing to hard for an exact order. I'm curious to see how you react if reck does get lynched and flips town.

CTD

Very nice analysis. feels town leaning to me.

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Elvis

Seems to be misrepresenting Reck. from his table it shows that he did have some prior mistrust of buttonman.
On the other hand I like his response to SC
A bit negative in general… seems to just want to chase after the easiest person to lynch and is leaving himself open for whomever that happens to be.

CTD

Good questions

Reck

Decent answers to the first set. didn't answer CTD's second set or anyone elses

Farsider

Why wouldn't you lynch KOD?
I like her thoughts on Reck on this page though. Scum actions yet townie explainations.
Also

That same day reck unimprinted vel 20 minutes later. I can't see scum unimprinting one of their own while needing just one more player to imprint vel

The imprinting kind of works, unless all scum were already on and they didn't want to be related. Still I don't feel reck is scum here so... I guess I do agree with you, though I’m not sure on your logic.

SC

Seems to be staying consistent with what others said of him, which is good, but also seems to be saying stuff I can't understand .... null read

Soc

I actually like how my predecessor answered Reck.

Pug

Useless on this page.

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Yeah it's hard to ignore logic over gut and seeing bad playing that looks scummy.

Atleast one of the scums is on the buttonmen wagon:

button (6) - Elvis, Farside, SerialClergyman, Pug, Socrates, reckoner

I agree with your sentiment, but not with who you chose after that… the three you selected are the three I think have the lowest chance (well not Pug) but still I don’t think that Reck is scum and I’m not. But at least one scum must have been on this.

I can see CTD saying he wasn't on the wagon and wanted KOC lynched. It's not conclusive for me based on the imprint of someone that was scum where DN scum was imprinting her as well.

Then again I like this too. I’ve definitely led people as scum before without actually being on the wagon I led. It’s a good tactic.

Pug/ortolan vs Socrates/CTD scumteam?

I like CTD. But I’m not sure I like how you’re buddying Ortolan and Pug. I guess I just don’t see the evidence, so I’ll have to look for it or ask later.

I had ortolan/SC scum team in my head yesterday do to a dream I had. Pug has needed to be replaced or is anti-town/scum for me. He hasn't given much oppinion on the game and is coasting by. It's irksome.

I’m liking this a lot. Just in general I like the format.

lol mafia dreams

I hate when people try to make cases without offering evidence.

Pug you need to give more than the fact that you thought you already explained it, explain it again in full.

I suggest we lynch ortolan. There is less controversy there I think.

I need to find out about ortolan first, can’t someone give a good case on him?

Didn't setting up lynches get you in trouble on day 1

So much towniness.

I'm doing the opposite of setting up lynches. I'm saying let's stop the speculation about scum teams and lynch ortolan who comes out of this looking very bad

which happens to be setting up lynches.

Vote: Pug89

Let's get the obvious out of the way first. I don't know what the case on my predecessor is but you're barking up the wrong tree so let's do something constructive instead.

Scummy beyond belief.

Not when taken out of context like that. And particularly not when done like SC is doing, just taking those into account that fit his theory and disregarding those that don't.

I realize this is more of a strategy discussion, but I generally don't think it's fruitful at all to just look at votecounts and trying to deduce the scum from that. Naturally, I will take all votes into account as I reread the game, but until then, I'm gonna disregard all discussion about it.

Everyone makes strategic mistakes. I was liking you the last two pages, but this page you’ve really started turning my opinion around.

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2. Reading his last 2 posts, it strikes me more than ever how passive Pug is. Not only does he post rarely and little when he does, he also very rarely comes up with anything original and mostly concentrates on whatever has been adressed to him in the interim.

He also acted horrendously scummy towards KoC's wagon yesterday and KoC calling him out on his illogical vote here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 01#2106301 looked like bad distancing. I agree with you that elvis is town, that's the only other read I feel confident of atm.

I don‘t like this post, it seems like you‘re trying to do a policy lynch on pug. Even your evidence is just policy lynching. I don’t like the way you’re treating this, nor how much you’re buddying with CTD

I never said I had read the game

WTF you aren’t even reading the game??? Even I’m trying to read the game and I came in on page 80.

Read the game then, please.

Does anyone have an objection to farside's town read on me?

I didn’t, but now that you’re pointing it out, I’m a bit bothered by my read so far… (for future games, pointing something out like that seems scummy. I still have a town read on you, but I am a bit bothered by this)

no way am I trudging through 74 pages. If something interests me and I want to read it I'll look at it. I find my style of play is far more effective; the one that involves voting scum.

He’s really sticking to that. Wow… just … wow…

I don't do "scum lists" in the sense you mean, they're bad play. We're not looking for two people who somehow reach the magical threshold of "scummy", but rather two people who are allied with and who know each other, and who are also allied with and knew the dead scumz0rs. I will give you more as the inspiration comes to my but for now I'm catching up at my own pace. For now pug is my top candidate to lynch, why do I need two people?

Ok, you understand that I was thinking you guys were a bit strong against ort at first, but seriously. I completely understand now. Orts while it does help to relate people together, I really think that individual reads are most important. Good scum stay separate fairly well, your tactic only works on poor scum.

Hmm... I've been thinking.

People have mentioned pug and Reck being on both Buttonman's imprint wagon and lynch wagon as points against them, but it seems they have conveniently forgotten someone else who has also done that.
This person also wasn't on the KOC wagon, and in fact managed to make no significant stance whatsoever on the wagon yesterday instead choosing to talk around it for the duration.
This person also got what I felt was a verrry sudden and verrry weird imprint push that sent off alarm bells in my head when it went down, and I feel bad for letting myself get browbeat into going along with it.

Someone mind telling me why farside is, like, obv-town?

I like his point, but I really don’t agree with him on farside being scum. I just don’t see it so far, but it’s still a valid point. Also, why hasn’t anyone else mentioned this before.

:raises hand:

I came into today wanting you hung from your neck and beaten with pointy sticks.

However, I am trying to look at all possibilities. I am most open to lynching pug instead of you. I want to look at one of my earlier posts about the d1 imprinting (I remember me and SC did a lot of analysis that would be useful mostly later in the game if somebody turned up scum -- which vmd/KOC did). So I want to look at that and see how it relates to my feeling of Limerick/Ortolan.

I also want CTD to explain what is so protown about Socrates. He's another vote-switcher from the KOC wagon to the buttonmen wagon, and somebody that I would like to look at more.

The first post of his I actually liked. Wow, this page really turned my head around…. Still, I like this post Elvis, but it doesn’t clear you from my suspicion list.

Because farside is obviously scumhunting and continually argues for conservative pro-town approaches.

She really adheres to the safe route almost all the time... which is why she and SC, and me and her, had such problems early game. She thought that me and SC were using too much WIFOM in our townreads of each other.

Far is scum hunting. But I don’t like the rest of the post.

His hammer on KOC after saying he wanted to imprint and no lynch to lynching KOC was highly questionable but it's hard to ignore cold logic.

I didn’t agree with your logic, but I’ve pointed out my own reasons for thinking Reck was town.

His move onto the Buttonmen wagon is something I will look into in more detail when I reread the relevant portions of the game, but at the time, it didn't bother me too much, as I myself was also debating making this move. While I obviously didn't come to the same conclusion as him, I can see where he was coming from from a pro-town perspective.

Good support style in this post, also a good point even though you didn’t agree with him you still are trying to look from another player’s perspective. Also everyone should remember that there were other’s on that wagon that had time to get off and did not get off and are now pointing the finger at people like Soc, pug, and Reck who joined later. I see some hammers as scummy, but from what everyone is saying they thought he was scum, everyone was considering voting for him, and the only reason you seem suspicious is that he flipped town.

If you want to call it "overly defensive", so be it. I've made my stance on this clear earlier in the game when I've argued against you using a smiliar analysis to do I-don't-remember-what. I'm pointing out that SC is using a scum-hunting technique that is, in my opinion, largely ineffective not to mention lazy and open to manipulation (as scum, it's easy to put any kind of spin on such an analysis). Notice that he didn't even properly analyze the vote-counts, he just posted a bunch of them and added some conclusions that didn't even take the whole picture into account (as pointed out by Elvis).

You’ve come back from the dead, I like this too.

As for why they could be misleading, I'm surprised that I'd even have to elaborate. Not only are votes something scum can fairly easily throw around to cause confusion (i.e. in case someone does a lazy vote-count analysis later), there's also the small factor of town voting badly with a certain frequency. This is particularly true for D1, which seems to be the period of the game SC is largly basing his case on. Yes, those votes need to be analyzed, but by looking at how they actually got there and not by just taking a glimpse at an arbitrary snapshot of the gamestate.

you forget one important thing, the first day scum have a tendancy to make bad moves as well, due to that WIFOM argument. I’m getting a null tell from this.

My thoughts about the way the imprints happened:
1)I think it would be easy for scum to vote buttonmen(town) and also vote for their buddy at the same time. Provides a little camoflauge.
2)Buttonman and Pug getting to I-1(imprint minues one!) makes me slightly suspicious of pug.
3)HOWEVER, the imprinting of buttonmen went through, while the imprint wagon on pug died.
-->This is strange. It looks like me and farside unvoted pug. I think I started to feel pug wasn't contributing or something. So this is perhaps why the wagon died. But makes me wondering if the pug wagon was scum fueled or not?
4)While the pug wagon dies, the limerick wagon grows, and takes pug's place.
-->VMD/KOC(SCUMBAG) was on the limerick wagon from the get-go, and was never on the pug wagon.
5)I am suspicious of both pug and lim/ort from this turn of events. I think limerick is more likely to be scum because:
--A)VMD/KOC scum favored limerick over pug;
--B)I think scum would be very itchy to get an imprint after buttontown got an imprint.

I think I like this, not 100%, but still I do like it. I think CTD has a bit of a point, could be a bit WIFOM, but still, it’s something to pay attention to. No one knows how it will all turn out and ort couldn’t kill anyone until the next person gets imprinted.

Yeah I am thinking that pug is not scum since VMD could have imprint hammered pug, and didn't.

I don't think it would have looked scummy for VMD to imprint hammer pug, so I don't know why vmd would be scared to do it.

This really does point to limerick/ort being scum. But that means that pug(town) and button(town) quick hammered his imprint. GEEZ. That would be like, really wacky

Like this too, for the most part. But I think it would be too much of a coincident. …

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I do think scum would buss, but this was like a really hard, long, buss, if it was a buss. Possible. I will look back to what CTD said about KOC. I don't think he wavered in his vote though, which makes me doubt a buss. I think scum try not to buss if they don't have to. I will give it another look though.

I think you should check out This game Sens bussed Elli right from the start and only changed his vote once to get a quick lynch, and in case you didn’t notice he was definitely scum, as was Elli. I hold no limit to how hard someone can buss.

I need to find that game I was on Xtoxm and we were both scum. Some people say they think it's easier to buss their scum partner and not waiver on it as they know that player to be scum then a town to wavier and question themselves and others.
I'm not saying 100% CTD scum. But I believe based on some analysist, reactions, and overall play ort is more likely scum.

This agrees with my point exactly.

I don’t like CTD’s next post… just doesn’t seem logical. Maybe I’ll have to relook at it. Sometimes he has great posts, but other times….

farside - why are you and elvis allowed to go talking about ortolan's buddies but you got all snarky at me when I did?

Because they did it in an organized way. They kept their posts reasonable. Still, it’s a good point to bring up.

[Pulindar]

I'm sorry Pulindar for not saying your name. I am needless to say an emotional person and when pissy I don't care to look things up when I'm on a tagant.

Don't even worry about it. Right then my friend had just asked me to replace into a quick game (4 day days) for someone who was at L-1 and had just asked her to replace. I had just spent some time arguing my way out of L-1 to L-5 and was still in that mode.

unvote:
vote: Ort

As for my reason's for saying reck was town and they only thing I found is day 1 where VMD was 2 votes away from an imprint. He unimprnted her after there was a 6th vote for imprint on her. I can't imagine scum unimprinting someone that is their scum buddy in this game.
She was too close to an imprint that day and it would have been a boon to get scum imprint day 1 for a team unable to kill without an imprint to give it too them.

Ok, I think I need to clarify what i was considering. Let's say that every scum was on the imprint VMD wagon, right? Now Reck realizes that no one else is going to join, and that it would look scummy if others did and they found out VMD was scum later.
He leaves, he creates a safety net for how he's not connected to VMD. frankly I see it as WIFOM. the argument could go either way.

On the other hand, I believe Reck is town... which means that I agree... sorta... not with your reason, but with you conclusion. I agree that that's what occurred, but I don't think that it's self evident. Do you see? It's a moot point, Reck is my best town read.

I love Ort thinking it's broken for the town to be given a cop investigation for one night. That is the worst excuse I have heard all day for rational thinking.

I don't get him either. Still, I need to finish reading the day before voting. Also, sorry guys but I need to leave soon and may not be able to vote until tomorrow

[Pulindar]

Reck is consistent, which I like as a town trait.

He's had some great answers, and his actions, while semi scummy, have been consistent against and for both proven town and proven scum alike.

I feel that Reck is a townie who prefers consistent play of play that favors any one thing or person. It leaves him open, but it feels to town for me to disbelieve it.

Now I'll be the first to admit that he bounces some times, and does some really scummy stuff, but it stays with his pattern and seems townish at other times.

[Pulindar]

hmm I'll have to read that part. two of my other games are on night right now so I should have more time, and I have a free day today...

I'm definitely leaning towards Ort, though I see Elvis as taking alot of control of the game and for some reason that's turning me off. If She is scum then it'll mean the death of town ... I need to go back and see what Elvis' thought were on all of the lynches.

Elvis, you seem to be pushing for an Ort lynch, correct?
I've seen much of the case, and I agree with you though... I really need to look again.

Elvis, if you don't mind answering the question, if Ort flips scum who would you push for next?
What if he flips town?

Those may not be questions you wish to ask, due to the fact that they may give scum information. I will understand you not wanting to answer those last two. But if you don't feel that they would be bad, I would like to hear the answer.

[Pulindar]

Reck, if you had vig what would you do?

[Pulindar]

Let me think.

Abilities:
Protect, as in doctor
Roleblock,
Protect and roleblock, as in jailkeeper
Investigate: as in cop
track, as in see who person x targets
watch, as in watch who targets person x
steal vote, stealing a vote from someone for the next day
night kill, like a vig ability
roelcop, tell what roles people have. Might help night by night, or to see if someone consistently keeps a role, but other than that...


Reck I think you're town, people are trying to call that into question. right now I have voted you for imprint. I was only thinking of the vig role as dangerous, but I'd like to hear what you would do with each of these roles. how useful you think they are, etc.

[Pulindar]

First off Elvis, I'd like to say that I meant to address your post, but I became quite suddenly afraid that even if Reck is town my imprint on him seem could go bad depending on what he wants to do with it.

As for the.

hmm I'll have to read that part. two of my other games are on night right now so I should have more time, and I have a free day today...

I'm definitely leaning towards Ort, though I see Elvis as taking alot of control of the game and for some reason that's turning me off.

I turn a lot of guys off.

In all seriousness... I don't know what to tell you. I'm just giving my opinion. If you disagree with me about anything, let me know. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense for you to be suspicious that I'm "taking a lot of control."

All of my completed games scum has taken control of the direction of the game. The need to take control of the direction of the votes seems inherently scummy to me and always makes me look more closely at the person taking control. Well, it does now that I've played a few games. Only one of those games was I scum.

Elvis, you seem to be pushing for an Ort lynch, correct?
I've seen much of the case, and I agree with you though... I really need to look again.

Elvis, if you don't mind answering the question, if Ort flips scum who would you push for next?
What if he flips town?

As I have said before I am somewhat torn between two scenarios: Ort/CTD and Reck/Pug. I mean, it's not certain that either of these pairs are the scumteam really... but it seems like the two scenarios that make the most sense to me.

So I'm in favor of lynching Ortolan, but I am also tempted to lynch Reckoner. If we lynch Ortolan and he flips town, I would have to reevaluate with that info (some of which I can't know yet, like what does the final wagon look like and what were the circumstances that the votes were cast). But I would probably be looking most closely at Reckoner and Pug.

Pulindar -- what did you think of my points against Reck? Do you have a different read of his ties to VMD/KOC?

I'd like to say that even though I am questioning you, your answers seem very town oriented to me.

I like that you would reconsider your stance if ort flipped town. That to me means that you're still considering who might and who might not be scum.

Now, onto my thoughts on Reck.

I'll address that in a second actually. I see Reck posted and I want to make a point.

Rolecop

is not quite useless. to my understanding both Farside and Ort have been imprinted once, right?

Well if you investigated them through your rolecop then you would see their role IF they kept a role. The only way they could keep a role though would be if they were previously imprinted AND are rogue dolls. I assume you'd investigate Farside then...

[Pulindar]

I sort of disagree with you here.

Reckoner has had a number of actions that are more than semi-scummy.

-said VMD (SCUM) was town because she voted buttonment for trying to break the game
-flip-flopped on town read of starbuck to mislynch her
-hammered buttonmen during a renewal of conversation that might have changed the lynch, and saved KOC/VMD (SCUM)
-argued that we should imprint and no-lynch on the day we were going to lynch KOC (SCUM)
-constantly begs for imprint

I see all of that, and yet it seems like a townie who just has made bad actions at the wrong time. I mean, I'll grant they seem kinda scummy, but WAY too obvious. plus he did eventually hammer KOC because it's his style to hammer.

Maybe that last one is only semi-scummy. The rest are pretteh scummeh.

I should be asking for an imprint as well. Actually if we are completely convinced of someone being town then we should imprint that person. But if we aren't convinced ... well, then we wait.

The only thing making me wonder if he is town is something about his manner. He hasn't ever seemed really rattled. And I can sort of see him doing some of hte above things in error, or out of frustration. Although, taken as a whole, he has a lot of ties to vmd/koc.

His manner is a huge part of my thoughts with him. He stays consistent with it. He knows that the goal of town isn't always to live, but to gather information. it's better if they live, but best if they get information. A lynch on Reck would show us (If he flips town) that his cases were not being swayed by scum. They won't say those cases are correct, town often attack town, but they would say that they weren't swayed by scum. It's less of a risk to mislynch a townie who gathered alot of information than one who did nothing. still, the one who did nothing might just be pulled along by scum in the later game if that's all that is left.

Also SC seems to think reck is town, and I pretty much still trust SC. He could still be wrong, but, I give his ideas some weight. So it makes me rethink reckoner.

SC's a pretty decent player. I don't have a real read on SC yet.

Also, when I went through the imrpint vote counts, if the scumteam is dn, vmd/koc, lim/ort, messiah/ctd, then scumteam bussed DN, and then all imprinted each other. Which makes a lot of sense to me as scumteam behavior in a game like this. They really want imprints, they don't really want to buss DN, but they have to. They trade bussing DN with trying to imprint the rest of the team. It makes sense.

I think it's a bit much to think that, Scum don't tend to put all the eggs in one basket, at least not scum with any skill.

Also, messiah was under heat at one time for hammering Starbuck I believe. I think the hammer was a bit hasty. Although, I know I pushed for that lynch like a ton of bricks (I had this feeling that scum were going to push a SC lynch, so we had to drive through another lynch before scum lynched SC. Didn't work out so good).

I want to look back at that time. The reaction to the DN lynch were certainly bizarre, IMO. Nobody seemed happy we lynched scum. There was almost a quicklynch of SC, then we switched to SB. I think this may be another area to find some good info.

mmm I'll need to look at this more.

[Pulindar]

I guess I should answer my own questions.

Imprint Pulindar

I know my alignment, means I know it's not bad for me to be imprinted

Protect, as in doctor:

Probably protect Reck.

Roleblock:

Ort

Protect and roleblock, as in jailkeeper:

Farside

Investigate:

difficult. I'm thinking Elvis because she's leading the group and is the riskiest one to have scum.

Track,

as in see who person x targets: Ort right now

Watch,

as in watch who targets person x: Reck

steal vote, stealing a vote from someone for the next day:

not sure really maybe Elvis to have her control more through opinion and less through strength. Maybe CTD or Pug for not posting much.

night kill, like a vig ability:

I'd probably kill Ort if he was still alive. right now that's where I stand. Otherwise... I dunno. Maybe no one, maybe pug.

rolecop,

I think I'd investigate ort if he lives through today.

[Pulindar]

thank you for that completely useless post

I know, because your post was the most comprehensive, useful post I've ever seen. all those thoughts about what Elvis and I were saying about Reck. All that consideration about Reck's answers to what he would do to the various types of imprints.

Great insight into Serial Clergy's opinion on Reck and what that means. And into whether Elvis should listen to it.

Love your thoughts on how Elvis isn't controlling town. Disagree, but love em.. wait, I think I missed em ... Whatever the rest was great that stuff about. the vote counts and where scum would have voted. Whether they'd be together or apart.

Who pushed for which lynches, excellent thoughts on that.

I forget, did you say Reck had constant play or inconsistent play.

Other than saying who we should lynch, could you give a reason?? an anything??

I need to find the vote count. I'm not ready to lynch you today but I want to put my vote on you. let me see whether I can vote you without lynching you.

mmm too bad, you're already at L-1 I guess I'll have to think about it later. by March if something doesn't change I will be lynching you Ort.

[Pulindar]

Yeah, I'm not sure I like this new guy.

May I ask why? I think I've answered your questions, and I've been staying active. I haven't read the whole game yet, nor do I have the background in the game you guys have, but I have been paying attention and trying to catch up. I gave you my answers as to my opinions. I know that they don't completely agree with yours, but you aren't really pushing an actual case against me. You're just saying you don't like me.

I'd like to say that I feel my questions about the imprints are vital. First of all i'd like to know how someone plans (or at least tells me they plan) to use the imprint I'm voting to give them. I don't inherently disagree with any of Reck's answers, so I'm fine with keeping my vote on him. I know I'm town and I know I like my answers, so I'm fine with voting me. I'm not sure of anyone else being town yet, yourself included Elvis, and I don't know what you would do with the roles anyway so I'm not voting to imprint you.

As for Ort. Every post I've read of his has set me off. Telling me that my posts haven't contributed anything when I answered questions, put out my opinions, and asked questions to try to get better reads. All he's done since I entered is say that my posts are useless (no quotes and reasons why just says it) and that we should lynch pug and farside. I know there are cases on both, I've read them, but I definitely don't like the case on farside. and I'm not sure about pug.

oh, and by the way how is this

thank you for that completely useless post

Useful

I stated, sarcastically, what he could have written about. In the past two days things have transpired. He stated no opinion on anything. so I gave him 3 days, if there are still 4 votes on him by march first and he still has posted nothing then I will hammer. half of the people are already voting him, others have and got off but still aren't sure. and frankly his post was extremely rude. I took honest offense to it.

I didn't take offense to your questions. Questions which I think I answered by the way. If you have more I'll answer more.

Actually Elvis. Why are you suddenly siding so readily with Ort? Maybe I missed something, but it seems sudden. I'm not sure whether it's because I'm the only person who actually suspects and is afraid that you might be scum? or what?
are you attacking me for disagreeing with you on Reck? SC disagrees with you there too.
Is it a personal thing? do you not like how I play?
I actually like how you play, but I suppose I could see people disliking my play. I hate how Ort plays.
Do you dislike that I'm thinking about imprints? I think imprints aren't such a bad idea if we make an educated decision about them. There are so many roles, especially single roles, that would help town and not help mafia.

[Pulindar]

YES Farside. I would LOVE for you to link me to a few games of hers where she is like that. Thank you.

[Pulindar]

EBWOP

If the search function were working I'd just look up some of her numerous games, but it's not so...

[Pulindar]

Your SK play is decently similar, but your scum meta and town meta are so far apart ..... wow.

Ok, thank you Farside, EK. That definitely convinced me. I didn't expect to be convinced so easily, but WOW that is different.

[Pulindar]

Yeah, I'm not sure I like this new guy.

Sorry this comment was a bit bitchy. I just didn't like how you keep accusing me of "controlling the town." It just seems vague to me, and a way of silencing someone who is active.

I see your point that scum can try to "run the town" or something. But I guess I know that I am not capable of this! lol. I also tend to see scum sit back and lurk or watch a town fight amongst themselves, so... I don't really agree that scum are usually very active players.

Anyway... I do appreciate you replacing in and contributing.

Thanks EK. I reacted a bit harshly back in my own way. All three of my completed games the scum controlled and completely led town. All three of my completed games scum won by doing it. I'm very cautious now when someone is leading the group mind. And frankly, you're the one putting your ideas out there in the most definite fashion.

I completely see from your meta what you mean though. I didn't expect to see that large of a change in someone's meta. I'm pretty satisfied. I didn't even need to read it really. All of your scum posts were basically 1 liners. Your town posts all had arguments. Your SK posts were in the middle... since we don't have SKs it's not even considerable

[Pulindar]

Pul - are you an alt?

Yes, I replaced Soc. here

Clergy are you proposing to just lynch Ort and move on to the next person?

[Pulindar]

EBWOF
I meant to say next day, not next person lol.

So do you just want to end the suspicion and move on? Is that your suggestion? With no imprints etc.

[Pulindar]

Pul - I know that, I was asking if you were a more experienced player who had created a new account to avoid recognition or meta or whatever.

I think so, yes. I have an edgy relationship with imprints. I don't know that they'll be that useful, and I do know that they make me worry that we'll lose a lynch as soon as they're done. I think we need to go all or nothing, I think only having 1 or 2 unconfirmed players get an imprint once ever does essentially nothing for us but makes me worried that we're actually one mislynch down (because they could NK at any time).

Either way, it's time to lynch I think.

No, this is my only account on MS. Why do you ask?

hmm I see what you mean. Still, right now the odds are pretty good that someone is town rather than scum.

Let me read a bit more. I'll decide what I want to do in the morning. I know I've had three days to read now. and I've read through a good part of the game, but I want to decide still. Plus I'd feel a bit bad hammering since I kinda gave Ort till March 1st to give a defense.

[Pulindar]

Well, we seem to have long deadlines, so if we need to talk alot tomorrow we can.

Ort is claiming that Farside and Reck are scum, I personally believe both are town. On the off chance that ort flips town I guess I'll take another look at both of them.

The game seems to be digressing, and we're pretty much nightless, so.

Vote Ort

that should be the hammer.

[Pulindar]

Imprint EK

I'm back, I haven't read through the day, but will in the morning still unpacking.

[Pulindar]

ug sorry guys, I've been busy and haven't had much to add.

Frankly I still don't have much to add.

Farside, do you think it's possible that Elvis knew his meta and would change it for this game?
I'm doubting it, but since I am voting to imprint Elvis, and you are not and you suggested that Elvis was definitely town.... well, you see where I'm going...

[Pulindar]

I meant her meta, sorry Elvis

I meant to ask if Elvis could be purposely changing her normal scum play because she knew how strong a difference there was between her scum and town game.

The main reason I asked wasn't because of my own suspicions, but because you seemed the most sure that Elvis was town and yet you have not hammered the imprint on her for the day.

I also makes me a bit more suspicious of you. If you're so sure she's town then I don't understand why you're postponing her imprint, unless you have a good reason. Saying that you're going to focus on your read of the game confuses me, because I see the imprinting of Elvis as just an after effect. just something you should be able to do without thought.

[Pulindar]

First priority for me is finding scum.
I think it's interesting your finding suspicion now that EK cleared me with her investigation, as far as she saying that my role is what I claimed day 3. Do you think her scum or myself scum or both scum? If so why did you imprint EK?

I don't think she is scum. I do suspect you might be.

I don't view it that she cleared you, because at that moment I don't see why you would have lied. If you were scum and got a doctor role, why not claim having a doctor role. It's perfectly reasonable especially since town (Ort) could get a vig role. Plus, it was listed as you having the same role for two nights in a row. How would you have had the role for two consecutive nights if you were not cleared at the start of the day (like you were supposed to be)? More than anything I actually found her results on you suspicious actually.

[Pulindar]

Ug, I feel like an idiot.

I was also told she got it D3. There was no mention of subsequent nights. I do not know if I would have been told that she got it every night after if she was scum, or that would just be assumed. BUT, I was just told she got it D3. (I'll ask username see if I can get any more specifics here).

that was the quote I was going to go after. I don't even know how I misread it, but I thought Elvis had said you that it also mentioned that you had the doctor role on subsequent nights....

hmm I guess that makes the entire case I was bringing up as moot.
I'm playing terribly this game

[Pulindar]

Hey sorry guys, I fell behind. I just got prodded, let me go over what's happened

[Pulindar]

ok, I see that Pug is the most likely person getting lynched today.

that means that if he flips town there are still two people who are scum, and if he flips scum there all you need to do is find his partner

The way I see it, from everything I've seen so far I'm positive that both Farside and Elvis are both town. If we don't imprint, then we can lynch everyone else in any order and town still wins.

The only reason I haven't voted yet, is because I realize that you guys are still discussing stuff.

[Pulindar]

hmm I will admit the last time I went with the approach of finding town instead of finding scum I completely lost (I chose both scum as town and proceeded to lynch everyone else accordingly.)

My second open science game that happened, where I was a mason.
but still, I'm pretty convinced that both farside and elvis are scum, aren't you?

In your post above you said that Elvis, farside, and reck are all town and a CTD lynch (with a scum flip) would make you town as well. I don't see where the problem is.


As for not going crazy I assume that means that you want me to wait before voting?

[Pulindar]

hmm Farside no I guess I don't, I've just sorta been rolling with it

Town: Pulindar, Elvis, Farside, Reck, SC, Pug, CTD : Scum

I think that the general perspective goes like

Town: Elvis, Farside, Reck, SC, Pulindar, CTD, Pug : Scum

But I'm not sure if that's how people generally feel or not. That's just what I've been able to determine.

[Pulindar]

Well, if you get technical, I don't remember mentioning CTD, Pug, or SC. I wasn't really scum hunting to be honest. I was town hunting. That's the reason I questioned Farside so much when I thought she was town. I wanted to make as sure of it as possible. That's also why I questioned Elvis so hard. If scum don't have any NKs then all we need to do is determine 2 town and let the game play out.

I'm fine with talking and trying to ensure that they really are town, or even to focus on the scum that do exist, but my perspective is that finding town is the most important thing in this game.

[Pulindar]

Ok guys, I fell behind today. Wow some pretty sizeable posts on this page huh?

Anyway, Let's get started.

CTD: Yes, You I meant the word you. I was speaking to Elvis and Farside and they were the ones that I wanted to continue the mission even if I were lynched before all the scum was found.

As for Reck, I put him last on the list of people I wanted lynched because I still do think he's town. I also think SC is town. I see what you mean though, if Reck, me, and another townie were lynched that'd leave Elvis, Farside, and two scum ... I didn't consider that. I'm willing to say that I'm sure about all three, Reck, Farside, and Elvis. I'm most sure about Elvis and Farside, but I still like my plan and we'll definitely win if it is followed. Town can't loose if Elvis and Farside are the last two, and if we actually get down to five without catching another scum then I'd like for Reck to be one of the sure ones kept alive.

Let's see, I haven't read this page yet let me read it and continue.

CTD the Reason I'm suspect of you is because I know I'm town, and I'm sure Elvis and Farside are both town as well. I'm also 90% sure that Reck is town, and I think that SC is probably town. That leaves you and Pug. Heck, in my scenario even I'm lynched before the end so long as Elvis, Farside, and Reck are kept alive. Heck I'd be willing to be lynched now if it means town will follow my plan. I'm that sure of it leading to a win. Of course, I'd rather have a chance at a scum lynch which leads me to thinking either Pug or yourself CTD, but I'm sure of my plan. (maybe SC)

[Pulindar]

sorry guys, I thought we had still been in night. I haven't been on for a minute. I've been a bit under the weather, and haven't been able to post anywhere.

I see it the same way I originally stated it, so.

Vote CTD

[Pulindar]

sounds fair, I'm next on the list . Then SC

[Pulindar]

*Crosses fingers* It'd be a good end point.

[Pulindar]

I was the next on the list wasn't I? I still think they're both town, so in theory it doesn't matter. I guess I just like order.

Whatever though. I guess I can

Vote Reck

if that's what those two think is best

[Pulindar]

Have you ever got an impression where people just stopped caring about a game?
I swear.....mutters a curse word......would the last scum please claim now? I would like this game to end now.

So would I farside, so would I. I still think my plan will work, I'm pretty confident that both Farside and EK are completely town. I'm still pretty sure about Reck, though my vote is on him. SC I thought was, but he's the next one I suppose in my mind. I thought I was next today, but since EK voted Reck I don't mind going with it. From what I've read I'm a bit nervous that EK and Farside are going to turn on each other. I don't think we stand a chance of winning if they do. I mean, Farside made an excellent case about EKs meta being his town meta.

Anyway, like I said before, I don't think the order matters, we'll definitely win if we just keep to my original plan. If that means lynching Reck now, I guess I'm ok with that. Order isn't my concern.

[Pulindar]

I'm not going to turn on farside.

Pul... that last post was confusing for me -- who do you think is scum? Can you give me an order of scummiest to least scummy?

Town - EK, Farside, Reck, SC - Scum

[Pulindar]

mentioned it in my previous post. I'm sure both you and EK are town. I'm willing to bet that and frankly don't care the order we die. I'm pretty confident that we're going to win, so there's no reason not to vote Reck. Elvis thinks Reck is scum, I'm willing to let her guide it if she wants. Vice versa, if you were voting SC I'd probably switch to that. If people decide to lynch me, that's fine to.

This sorta feels like my Mason game http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13324 Well, I'm pretty sure I'm not messing up this time. Last time I chose the exact wrong people to think of as town right away, and the exact wrong people to think of as scum. My best town read was scum, and vice versa wasn't the best game.

Farside, I am answering your question, it's just taking me a bit to type it out. sorry. Also, I gave my reason in my previous post.

So would I farside, so would I. I still think my plan will work, I'm pretty confident that both Farside and EK are completely town. I'm still pretty sure about Reck, though my vote is on him. SC I thought was, but he's the next one I suppose in my mind. I thought I was next today, but since EK voted Reck I don't mind going with it. From what I've read I'm a bit nervous that EK and Farside are going to turn on each other. I don't think we stand a chance of winning if they do. I mean, Farside made an excellent case about EKs meta being his town meta.

Anyway, like I said before, I don't think the order matters, we'll definitely win if we just keep to my original plan. If that means lynching Reck now, I guess I'm ok with that. Order isn't my concern.

EK said she didn't understand, though I felt it was clear

[Pulindar]

EBWOP

Mason Game

[Pulindar]

What I don't understand, is why are you even hesitating if you're sure about elvis?

Quoted For Truth

[Pulindar]

Is that it?

[Pulindar]

Vote SC

Imprint Farside

[Pulindar]

Do a no lynch and if one of us gets a vig shot?

I think both myself and EK can agree that Pul is are main suspect..........thinking.

Well, you both have imprints. The reason I imprinted Farside and not Elvis is due to a lingering doubt. I reread some of the game and realized that when Elvis cleared Farside with the doctor role thing there were still two scum. But, rereading I realized that Farside officially has been 100% cleared. Also, I don't really care about the imprints much, but I figured why not, right?

Anyway, the way I look at it I still am pretty sure that you're both town, I expected SC to lynch me, but I guess that would reveal that he's the remaining scum. I don't know what his plan with the imprint and hope for vigs is, but if he was scum it'd be a bad tactic, and if he was town it'd be a bad tactic. He should just lynch me and then you two can go on and kill him tomorrow. Or vig him tonight.

[Pulindar]

which kills me anyway, so it doesn't help anyway in your example if elvis or farside are scum. Still, I don't care. Vigging people is just as quick as lynching them.

No Lynch

[Pulindar]

they are both imprinted, but just in case

Imprint Elvis

[Pulindar]

it was definitely interesting. I don't think I had much of a chance, but I still tried. When you guys lynched Pug I was trying to force the lynch on me actually. It took a bit for you guys to shift the suspicion to me though. I wanted to get lynched and hoped that that would make you a bit suspicious of each other after I had gone around confirming both EK and Farside. And trying to come up with a plan for town to win. To bad it backfired.

[Pulindar]

I don't mind in the least CTD.