Mini 942: Gonzo Mafia - Game Over!

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

/confirm

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Vote: DDD

Because he's going to wind up tunneling on me/calling me a shitty player anyway.

That Guy: Hey Danny, come vote for me, buddy.
This Guy (in a West Virgina accent): Wah shore.

Vote: xRECKONERx

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Hey Vi, I remember a game where there was an early kerfuffle over you putting (L-X) after your votes; now I don't know the end result of all that but why no (L-X) count here?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

xRecx’s arguments with Zach are just an absolutely ridiculous contrivance. Frankly I don’t know why scum would essentially call for votes as he did in his opening vote other than WIFOM, but his arguments have been bad enough since then that I’m pleased with my vote.

Really don’t care for flinter’s behavior so far. Too much socializing, no firm opinions and no votes.

I think Zach looks town so far though it looks like he needs to maybe settle down a little bit.

I’m frankly enjoying the hell out of the style Vi is putting into her posts.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

So I'm trying to investigate, but there is nothing scummy that stands out for me yet. It would also help if I got to know some of the players better.

if you are scum, and someone makes a point against you that is quite ridiculous, what do you do:

A calmly explain why it is ridiculous.
B call that person a moron, etc.
C something else (please explain what you would do)

Mike, do you remember what populartajo did in the game I modded during D1? Why he put together a convenient little quiz so that he could better understand the playstyles of everyone in the game. And hey, he was scum using that quiz as a way to look busy and avoid actual scumhunting as well as to better frame his arguments. Oh hey and flinter doesn't have any reads here so she puts together a handy little quiz that looks busy, avoids actual scumhunting and could help her frame arguments better later if we weren't all about to lynch her.

Unvote; Vote: flinter

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

is everything I'm going to do now seen as "trying to look active"?

Further, I'm not populartajo.

If you're not scumhunting, but you're posting then I see no reason not to assume that your behavior is designed to avoid lurking and to avoid having to take a stance; these behaviors are inauthentic and/or scum-beneficial and thus are more likely to come from scum than town.

Congratulations, your second argument essentially is to basically eliminate the concept of a scumtell. "Just because other people regularly do this as scum doesn't mean I do it as scum" is extremely unconvincing.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, do you still think me scummy? In case you don't, could you please unvote, because your name is so long that I thought I was lynched when I saw that votecount

Yeah, that's about the least compelling reason ever to unvote.

~~~

I

dislike

Sotty7 and her Locke Lamora vote. I'm not reading Locke Lamora as scum; the reasoning behind Sotty's vote (and flinter chiding him) isn't convincing and his "tone of voice" reads Town.

I actually like Sotty's vote because I've seen LL play from the deep background once or twice as scum and never really be questioned. So I like Sotty's attempt to drag him into the light.

~~~

Looking at the two wagons, I think DDD is the easiest to criticise for wagon-jumping. I've been very wrong in my reads of DDD before (as I'm sure he'll be happy to attest to), and I know he's a fan of the wagon, but it seems like he's phoning in his performance in this game so far.

Very wrong? It's more like have you ever been right, amirite?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

ortolan is megalurking more than DDD, which is something of a dubious achievement.

Hugs.

~~~

@xRECKONERx: You have mentioned twice that you have a meta-town-read on Vi, but you've retracted that now. What made you think that her play was town-Vi?

This isn't the right question.
The right question is "Why are you now obsessing over retracting your Town read?".

Yeah, I'll try to catch up and get some content here soon. I'm posting this in all my games: this is an incredibly stressful/busy week for me. Two mid-terms, a six minute short film project to edit, a ten minute oral Spanish presentation, and a ten page script are all due within the next five days.

Mafia has to take a backseat for a bit.

So... you don't have anything to say about the game and aren't caught up at all, but had this pressing need to warn everyone that I'm not easy to read (in spite of like nobody really calling me Town). Plus you're hanging around GD.
"Reporter Casually Acknowledges Possible RL Commitments; Disregards Them As Smokescreen", end quote.

This is also quite the fun expose. Tack it to forced casework from earlier and we've got a new number one who was also an old number one.

Unvote; Vote: xRecx

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Although I like that DDD is finally off me, his vote makes me doubt him a bit. He bandwagons.

What is your obsession with Triple D's vote?

I am pretty important.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

K. Lynch me. This game does not interest me in the slightest.

Time to die. I have no clue how or why anyone who posted after this would just ignore this like they did.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, same question.

Pretty much, while I've still got mad dislike for flinter/Jack I'm stuck on Rec and his meandering threat to replace out, but his lack of commitment in doing so.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Jesus, this use of replacements is just Cowardly. hiding behind a tool that's merely supposed to be for game management, not strategy. Kill 'em all is my policy right now. I need to re-read the game and ISO our three chickens to see who looks scummiest of the trio, I doubt I'll get any new content up tonight, so I'd expect it tomorrow.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD is hopping wagons like crazy and just told me in a no-longer-ongoing game that that's what he does as scum (and possibly D1 as well). This is simply a call-out not to let him continue this through D2.

"Reporter unsurprised to see own comments repeated back at him; slightly surprised at quickness of repetition"

I might've jumped a kyle/Jahudo wagon if it was still available because I got progressively more uneasy with kyle's play as I re-read his posts.

I also think I might've been wrong about flinter; I still find her play obnoxious but looking at the sum of it; it looks much more town that I anticipated. Barring someting out of left field I will not be voting for flinter/Jack today.

I'm happy with the xRecx wagon I'm on currently even after a re-read of his play. Bad cases and shifting motives make me want him dead.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD: scummy

I might've jumped a kyle/Jahudo wagon if it was still available because I got progressively more uneasy with kyle's play as I re-read his posts.

When was this? That quote is the first time you mentioned kyle, so why didn't you question him when he was still in the game?

As Kyle has the ability to do, he settled right into my blind spot. The reason I noticed him again was the latest mentions of Mayor Mafia where scum-Kyle did basically the exact same thing and I realized I shouldn't let the same thing happen again. Combined with the lame replacing out he did it put him back on my board and after reading his posts I didn't like what I saw.

Vote: DDD

Because he's going to wind up tunneling on me/calling me a shitty player anyway.

That Guy: Hey Danny, come vote for me, buddy.
This Guy (in a West Virgina accent): Wah shore.

Vote: xRECKONERx

It does look like DDD ended up tunneling on reckoner and calling him a bad player without explaining why.

He's said reck looks bad since post 84, but he never questioned reck in all that time. He agreed to a Vi case and it seems like he called for a policy lynch on reck's desire to get replaced. But he hasn't expanded on the reck case, so his involvement and confidence don't feel genuine to me.

@DDD: Has your confidence in reck been strong the entire game? If so, why no explain it more for people that weren't on his wagon during the day? Is meta part of your case too?

Was your confidence in flinter weaker throughout the game?

First I'd really love for someone to explain this whole tunneling=scum thing to me because I swear not only is it inaccurate, I just don't see the logic behind it.

I don't do questions (or at least I don't think I do). I read, I analyze, I vote, I borrow other people's arguments and sometimes I even occasionally write up actual cases, but I really don't think I do questions.

I've seen plenty to dislike from reck and nothing that really looks pro-town to me. I've brought up the things I found interesting from his forced case on Zach to his threat to replace out and I quoted Vi in regards to his shifting meta reads and using his commitments as a smokescreen. I think it's tedious and not terribly helpful to cudgel the town with repetitions of the same arguments.

Weaker than reck I assume is the comparison you're asking about and the answer is obviously yes considering I unvoted her to vote reck again and don't much like the flinter/Jack wagon anymore. I think Mike raised a good point when I drew him into the discussion and while I don't like her playstyle; it seems more likely that it's playstyle not scumminess that bothered me.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

First I'd really love for someone to explain this whole tunneling=scum thing to me because I swear not only is it inaccurate, I just don't see the logic behind it.

I don't do questions (or at least I don't think I do). I read, I analyze, I vote, I borrow other people's arguments and sometimes I even occasionally write up actual cases, but I really don't think I do questions.

That second paragraph does sum up your play in this game, and if that's how you find scum then that's how you find scum. But I think that, and tunneling like you have, is a good way to play as scum.

I've seen plenty to dislike from reck and nothing that really looks pro-town to me. I've brought up the things I found interesting from his forced case on Zach to his threat to replace out and I quoted Vi in regards to his shifting meta reads and using his commitments as a smokescreen.

You've said that reck's case on Zach was ridiculous and bad, which sounds like an easy way to stay vague so that if a specific tell about reck making his cases is later dropped, your unexplained reasonings can stay in-tact.

A) Yes, it's a good scum strategy and so is straight lurking if you can pull it off and so is looking like the most pro-town player in the game. There are any number of good scum strategies what I'm suggesting you've failed to do is go beyond that and show why you believe me to be scum.

B) I believe I made specific points about it being a contrivance e.g. that is was inauthentic. I think that's a rather specific criticism rather than ridiculous and bad.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Jahudo, I can see the argument for exaggerating your points or say pressuring harder than a single point warrants and I do that plenty. But I don't see the argument for tossing rationality and common sense out the window as Reck did. He tried to turn it into a meta argument and when it was shown not to be out of meta bounds he immediatly twisted it to Zach playing against meta. If he were simply trying to pressure Zach for a read then it was unneccesary to string it out that far as he would have new useful information at that point. Instead he decided to bend it into scummy behavior no matter what facts were presented both unneccesary to pressuring him and inauthentic, thus a contriavance under your definition.

~~~

Mike, you've got four people listed as possibly supporting a Ortolan lynch, not three.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'll play along, the reck wagon is stagnant, I don't like the Jack wagon, I do like the ortolan wagon and the hohum wagon at least needs some competition.

Unvote; Vote: ortolan

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'd love to have DDD lecture you on this.

"Individual seeks to punish opposition with speech from overbearing bore"

~~~

But I'm not comfortable making a judgement on hohum's play without knowing rec's alignment which I think swings the situation dramatically.

~~~

People, we've got a second chance; that means there's still time for you to help us wagon ortolan. Go go go!

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I don't have an issue with an ortolan lynch, given the bulk of his posting, the horrible attacks on Vi, and the fact that the suspicion surfaced right after Vi started suspecting him.

I still prefer a Jack lynch though... maybe even a Locke lynch.

Well a Locke lynch is quite obviously not happening and the momentum for a Jack lynch (which I'd suggest was never there in the first place) has dissapeared as well. An ortolan lynch on the other hand is new, fresh, and happening and with your support, yes you, we can do this. Sí, se puede.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Well a Locke lynch is quite obviously not happening and the momentum for a Jack lynch (which I'd suggest was never there in the first place) has dissapeared as well. An ortolan lynch on the other hand is new, fresh, and happening and with your support, yes you, we can do this. Sí, se puede.

Quite a few people have said they'd support a locke lynch. Maybe it's time for a new chart.

I'm sorry I didn't take the entirely hypothetical tied for fifth-largest possible bandwagon, that no one has shown any inclination of actually moving on, seriously. How could I be that silly?

~~~

Sucks to be Cobalt.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD lynch = ortolan/Cobalt lynch > Jack lynch

That's how I feel, but I'd lynch any of them.

Vote: DDD

.

Deadline's in two days and Ortolan looks more viable at this point than DDD... so why DDD over Ortolan?

Dude, it's obvious that with two days until an already extended deadline you cast a vote for someone whose wagon has less support than the previously mocked Locke wagon when you've listed another wagon with actual support as equal to that ESPECIALLY when you lack the time and will to actually push for the nonexistant wagon of your choice. Duh.

I seriously hope someone kills him tonight; scum, third-party, town-aligned, whoever, just someone make him dead.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

lol ddd

fuck off

That was about as well thought out as your vote on me, kudos.

~~~

I understand 498, I just know Vi is willing to put in that much effort as scum as well as town and from the one game where she pulled out those numbers there was no significant trend to be found in them. So while it's interesting I'm not sure it's useful at all.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I understand 498, I just know Vi is willing to put in that much effort as scum as well as town and from the one game where she pulled out those numbers there was no significant trend to be found in them. So while it's interesting I'm not sure it's useful at all.

It's not effort really.
But ignoring that, I waited to use that in F&E until I knew it would be in my advantage.

Certainly to be considered. Last night I got bored and ran the numbers myself for D1 of F&E to see if there was an actual trend and the scum spots on the list were 1, T3 (with two other players), and T10 (with one other player); not exactly a significant trend one way or another. So maybe you have the experience that you feel comfortable using the information to make some sort of generalization, but looking at that game it's impossible for me to see a trend; hence interesting not useful.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Apologies about being missing much of the last two days; sadly it will continue until late(r) Sunday, but I should have fresh content and/or opinions then.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

To VP Baltar, a ten minute night does not give people the amount of time they need to kill Reckoner. Please remedy this in the future, plz k thx.

Yes, sir. *salutes* ~ The mod

~~~

Vote: Sotty

Ortolan quotes her once in a response and that's it. Whenever he's mentioned by Sotty early it was almost invariably within the context of hohum and Percy where she's extremely indecisive in regards to him, but late in the day he pops up on her willing to wagon list and it's not really clear why until her vote post. I also have issue with her tone which just seems very off to me.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

To VP Baltar, a ten minute night does not give people the amount of time they need to kill Reckoner. Please remedy this in the future, plz k thx.

What gives you the impression that the ten-minute Night was accidental?

That's a joke, son.

It was quite obviously not accidental, that doesn't mean I couldn't whine at Baltar for it.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Unvote:

I think I may have initially given Jack a bit too much town cred for that scum lynch, on 2nd look, his reasoning doesn't look great.

To VP Baltar, a ten minute night does not give people the amount of time they need to kill Reckoner. Please remedy this in the future, plz k thx.

Yes, sir. *salutes* ~ The mod

~~~

Vote: Sotty

Ortolan quotes her once in a response and that's it. Whenever he's mentioned by Sotty early it was almost invariably within the context of hohum and Percy where she's extremely indecisive in regards to him, but late in the day he pops up on her willing to wagon list and it's not really clear why until her vote post. I also have issue with her tone which just seems very off to me.

Your case on things Sotty has actually done is pretty vague here. As far as the whole Ortoscum ignored her point, that point can be made pretty equally for people like Jack, yourself, and me. I don't recall him going to much effort to respond to or talk about any of us offhand either.

That point can't be made for Jack at all since ort voted for both flinter and Jack. Obviously I know I'm town and from an outside perspective I should be viewed in a seperate category from both you and Sotty as I was basically the one who turned the ort wagon from a pet cause of Vi into something viable while you two broke late onto the wagon in common bussing position. So I did consider both of you for the position of ortolan's scum partner who never interacted with him. In the end I think you're more likely to be town and Sotty more likely to be scum based on your early voting behavior and the weird vibes I get from Sotty's tone.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I can't really defend against weird vibes from my tone Triple D.

(1)

I don't really see why scum ignoring me is such a big tell

(2)

but when the other people are brought up it means nothing. I'm not buying your explanation either, it all seems pretty contrived for you to keep your vote on me.

(3)

I also don't think you should be taking the credit for the Ort wagon, you were pushing it near the deadline and that's about it.

(1) For serious? I am not wasting my time explaining to an experienced player why scum ignoring players is often a tip-off. It's obviously not a tell where this happens and it automatically means scum but given normal scum behavior it's a very good starting point.

(2) Well I brought up why the argument doesn't even apply to flinter/Jack despite what you and Zach have both tried to claim. The other three people are you, me, and Zach. I shouldn't have to point out that I have no interest in facilitating my own lynch. Then with a player pool of two people I looked at the rest of your play and came to the conclusion that you were more likely of the pair to be scum.

(3) My vote and words turned an ortolan lynch from nothing more than a hobby horse of Vi's into a full blown wagon and lynch. Read the actual game thread instead of a series of ISOs and it'll be patently obvious. The ortolan wagon had been sitting there for a little while with little momentum and was really just another in Mike's list of hypotheticals. My vote shifts the wagon from a sideshow to a distinct possibility and my agitation made it clear it was more viable than any other. Jahudo immediatly follows my vote with an attempt at the third vote; Jack votes after I again rally for an ort lynch and in my sarcastic way I pulled apart the viability of lynches of Locke, Jack, and myself to redirect people to the now vibrant ortolan wagon. Does an ortolan lynch happen without Vi's arguments? No. Does an ortolan lynch happen without my vote and agitation? Maybe, but in this reality of this game they were crucial and to pretend otherwise is a misrepresentation of this game's history.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD: Do you feel bad about Friends and Enemies?

Why would I feel bad? I feel annoyed that I couldn't convince others to believe me (and even that is tempered by the fact that I was pitted against both Zorblag and Vi), but I don't feel bad when I was right more often than I was wrong.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD: I just wanted a question to people I've played with before and that was the first one that came to mind. Link to your case on Sotty?

Nah, how about you just read the game; it's in there.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I read the game amished linked too and now I'm getting the feel that hohum is a bad townie scapegoat. Of course, he could be mafia just like he could be just a bad townie scapegoat. But I don't have the feel of it.

I've certainly seen hohum as a bad Townie before, but he was slightly better than this
Actually, I don't think I've ever seen hoscum.

I wouldn't be against a Jahudo lynch if it came to it. kyle99 needed it and Jahudo hasn't particularly been SuperTown.

Sorry Vi; I want to get a feel for people in the game while I'm here rather than extrapolating from the rest of the game.

Nya, I've been lost since before crunch time D1. It's not your fault.

So you're calling Percy+Jahudo?

I'm not against a Jahudo lynch

; Percy is kind of iffy just based on intuition/the usual craplogic that sounds good at the time.

That's without reading your posts, mind.

Unvote; Vote: Jahudo

This worked last time.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Not-really-simulposted by DDD "hinting" at me.

Why jump to Jahudo now?

Was I supposed to wait?

I got bored and unconfident in my read. Someone asked if I'd played with Sotty before and I have, but I believe the most prominent times she was scum and I never read a weird tone in her posts so I got to thinking maybe I had the situation backwards. I'm not sure I'm wrong, but it was time to set that aside and do something. Add all that to the fact that no one was joining my wagon and it was time to make a move. Both of the big wagons are alright, but neither really set my mind on fire so it made more sense to jump to a wagon started by one of my town reads in Jack and hinted at by another one (you) especially when I wanted kyle lynched at one point yesterday.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

*Defending Sotty7 - Only one person put a case out on Sotty - that person being someone most people don't listen to anyway (don't tell him that though).

But Reck didn't put together a case on Sotty...

Hey wait a minute...

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

placeholder

So tempted to edit in a self-depricating remark.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm not voting for Vi, Zach, Jack, or Percy today. I don't see myself voting Mike or Reck except under deadline with the only other option being a no lynch. I'm still waiting to be convinced in regards to Amished and Hohum. I'd prefer Jahudo or Sotty to be lynched today. Tonight, I'll work on putting together a formal case (blech) on kyle/Jahudo for you all to scoff at.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Kyle starts the game pretty squishy. He tosses an RVS vote onto Reck and then next thing unvotes him with a bizarre meta defense for his second post in the game. He doesn’t even follow that up with a vote, just fos’es Zach for nothing major. This initially startled me on my reread that kyle seemed indecisive which to a degree is a town-tell, but I went back and checked Mayor Mafia and he did the same thing in that game as scum which alleviated that concern that I was wrong. He then further goes after another soft target in flinter and is just generally not involved in the game.

He then draws a vote from ortolan for kyle’s “tactical replacement” which I saw ortolan butcher to his death in a previous game and basically do the same here. (Incidentally, I don’t ever need to play with that fucking schmuck again). So he knows it’s a reliable tell and I think it’s perfectly reasonable that he was willing to throw a scum partner overboard at that point; it would earn him a fair amount of credibility for calling the scenario like he did and at that point kyle hadn’t been an asset at all and he had no clue if his replacement would be any better.

Then Jahudo replaces in and it’s hard to fault him for his play. Some little things do bother me, when he replaced in he called me scummy. I countered by saying his arguments were about playstyle and didn’t actually prove scuminess; you’d think that if he had a good read on me as he replaced in he would’ve then laid out the case against me other than playstyle, but at the same time no one else moved on me so he just moved on to other targets. I don’t want to seem as if I’m complaining about talking someone into thinking I’m not scum, but I usually expect more pushback especially from town. The rest of day one builds to him getting on the ortolan wagon which is nice, but I’m trying to not be too impressed by it.

I find it a little curious that day two started up and he immediately started up with analysis on Mike, but then just as quickly flops over to Locke/Amished. Since then I really haven’t seen a push from him for an Amished lynch which could suggest that he really doesn’t want to take ownership of it.

~~~

Well that’s my analysis of how kyle/Jahudo is possible/likely scum. I wish there was a smoking gun but there’s really not. But maybe that’ll push some people to move their votes the way I think they should.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I smell like poo.

Perhaps a shower is in order. ~The mod

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I see how it is Baltar. I wasn't going to do it, but you pushed me and I can't allow this to stand without a response. Here's your avatar for the F&E debacle.

Ugh....how much time did I agree to? ~The mod

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Ah fair young Percival, we hardly knew ye other than the fact that you probably would've tried to spend all of D3 trying to lynch hohum again.

I have an instant, gut revulsion to lynching someone who has been on scum wagons both of the first two days of the game even if that person is Reck.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Ah fair young Percival, we hardly knew ye other than the fact that you probably would've tried to spend all of D3 trying to lynch hohum again.

I have an instant, gut revulsion to lynching someone who has been on scum wagons both of the first two days of the game even if that person is Reck.

Define "on scum wagons":

"Hi! I'm DDD, and I act like an arrogant pompous twat for no fucking reason whatsoever!"

In any case, given the points: DDD-lynch is preferable to simply make him dead because he's awful, but since that's obviously not happening, I'll

Unvote; Vote: Cobalt

Am I the scum player in this analogy? Who am I attacking?

...Seriously?

Unvote, Vote: Jahudo

I'll hammer hohum if necessary. CLAIM TIME.

Ort was the only lynch when xReck voted him btw.

You were at L-2 and ortolan was still at L-4 when Reck made his vote on me, it was not the only wagon open to him. Now by the time he had been lambasted for his vote on me it was the only option, but when he first made his late D1 move he easily could've sent you to L-1 with hohum not voting and being one of the two other people to recieve votes certainly making a hammer a viable option.

I think Reck had a fair amount of chances to position himself on town wagons and secure town lynches and I don't think that's been his MO. Could he be bussing? Certainly, but right now I'm skeptical.

~~~

I am not voting for Jack, Sotty, or Amished today, not happening.

~~~

Right now I trust Vi as much as a swarm of hornets whose nest has caught fire and I think anyone whose making the assumption that she's town is making a leap of faith.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Vote Vi

Because I've reread the topic and the flavor seems to fit with him being scum. Here's why:

I'm not convinced that his "non post restriction" style of posting is not a post restriction. Ralph Steadman is a cartoonist who worked closely with Hunter S. Thompson. Gonzo basically made Steadman famous. It's not a stretch to think that the "Gonzo" in this theme means bad guys and not good guys considering Hunter's relationship with Steadman.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I like how DDD only quoted half my post. Good job, duck!

I already said I don't trust Vi, but that doesn't mean that the first half of your argument wasn't the single dumbest thing that anyone has posted in this game.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Contemplating a massclaim with 2 mafia dead already. Would help clear/implicate people from N1 due to the lack of a kill then.

N1 lasted ten minutes I expect there is nothing to clear or implicate based on that.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Then why would the scum decide to no-kill? There had to have been time to allow for any decisions.

Or ortolan was a scum version of a beloved princess and his lynch sent us back to day immediately. Given the rule you just quoted there's obviously some ability at play but it certainly doesn't have to be town or scum aligned.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Aren't beloved princesses normally like... named something other than a neighbor-maker?

If the case is that Ort/Cobalt had another passive-ability like that, then it's less likely that scum would buss in that situation, wouldn't it?

You'd think so, but I'm not going to try and play outguess the mod by accepting a mass claim as a good idea just to find one role without an obviously guaranteed alignment. If we screw up once or twice in lynches then we can talk, but it's just foolishness to hand scum all the info we have for no apparent or a minimal gain.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Hey DDD, why did I suddenly become a flaming... um, what word was that again? Anyway, etc.

Because I was able to wipe several people off the board for scum consideration and you weren't one of them. In fact I could put together a decent scum narrative for you. Combine all that with the fact that you're the second best player in this game (behind only Reck) and I see plenty of reason to be distrustful of you.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Combine all that with the fact that you're the second best player in this game (behind only

Reck

)

...did I completely miss the sarcasm, or did you make a mistake?

That's still a joke, son.

Anyway, the people you wiped off. Were there any more than I just listed above?

I included Sotty on the list as well, if she's scum she's got bigger brass balls than the rest of the town put together.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I remember reading Yesterday that my picks for Town were DDD, Amished, Zachrulez, Sotty7 (something like in descending order), leaving hohum and xRx. I would like to reread to make sure of that, but that's not coming until after the weekend.

Why is Zach "more" town that Sotty considering they had near identical positions on the ortolan wagon, but Zach was pushing hohum over Jahudo on D2 while Sotty was the one who swung the vote for Jahudo? Right now I've got a tiered structure of...

Town: Me, Amished, Sotty
Middle: Zach, Vi
Suspicious: Reck, Hohum

I'd likely be voting Hohum right now except I want this day to last longer than the one-day day we just had.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I had a feeling that was you. Why did you claim? I doubt you would have been lynched today despite hohum's desire.

PREVIEW EDIT: Why did Zach's claim make you self vote hohum? That doesn't make any sense.

Basically I gave it some thought, and decided that depending on whether there's another power role out there and what it is, that it might actually be a good idea to force the scum to have to deal with me over night assuming that a Hohum lynch doesn't do the trick.

Vi, is this who you expected to claim credit for the ten minute night and if so can you explain what you picked up on to make you think that?

Zach, why would scum have to deal with you overnight? I can only assume since we haven't seen any other ten minute nights and the fact that the role would be near gamebreaking if unrestricted that it's a one shot ability. And even if we were to accept that it's not plausibly a scum role that would only make you essentially a vanilla town that no one is going to lynch along with several unknown role town players who no one is going to lynch and who could seal the deal for the town (assuming our lynch today doesn't end the game).

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I smell like poo

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Hmmm, I've been seeing DDD as town, but I haven't really ever been able to reason much as to why. He's been under the radar for the most part over the entire game, and

I don't really understand his distrust of Vi

beyond the fact that the scummiest players who are most likely to make endgame should they avoid being lynched may also be likely to vote Vi in an endgame scenario.

Let's see, she was pushing a bandwagon with maybe two or other three people voicing support for it on day one within a day of deadline. If we assume Vi scum then it would've been a perfect opportunity to force either a no lynch or make someone else hammer a townie. Then on D2 she makes minor comments about being suspicious of Jahudo and then goes in a complete opposite direction and drives hard for what would be a likely town lynch.

It's textbook scum play, D1 bus to gain town cred as the town seems headed for a town lynch but Vi got her hand caught with her hand in the cookie jar. The next day you don't want to bus your partner because then you're the only scum left and town has a massive advantage with two straight scum lynches but don't want to defend your partner so you state minor suspicion of them and try to secure a town lynch.

Now she's not the only one that you can put together such a narrative for, I could easily put the same thing together for hohum, reck, and you but because I can do that, those are the people I'm suspicious of. I literally could not do that for sotty or Amished and I doubt anyone could do that same for me. Combine that with the fact that she's easily the best player out of the suspicious list and well, if this were a Supreme Court case we'd be applying "strict scrutiny" to her and not blithely assuming she's town.

~~~

I agree with Amished, I would've been willing to hammer hohum no matter what my feelings are for him because if I assume Zach's role is a pro-town role then there are three people I believe who could be scum and we have three lynches. I want the requested information to hit the board and to lynch people on that list.

~~~

I absolutely know house cat's smarter than reck.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Ahh, DDD. I both love that you read the game the same way that I do, but it's for that reason that I have a hard time distinguishing a playing of me or not.

However; it'd be stupid to try to play me with with all the animosity.

???

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Vote: xRECKONERx

I certainly don't mind.

I'll get to Sotty's question tomorrow.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Triple D, are you saying Amished town because of wagon placement?

What you can't just trust me? Third on the Jahudo wagon certainly helps his cause. I think the bigger thing is that very early on day two Jahudo jumped on his wagon early. I just don't see scum's first instinct being to bus their other partner after bussing their first partner on day one. A cross bus in that position would just be ridiculous.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Which would give him badly needed town cred after the way his predecessor opposed an Orto lynch.

Also, I don't buy that busses necessarily tend to come at the tail end of wagons. If a bandwagon has a decent chance of resulting in a scum lynch, I'd actually expect earlier votes to be busses, mainly because that's exactly how town cred is gained.

So after a successful lynch and absolutely no time to plan because of your ten minute night you're suggesting that scum would start the next day and immediately cross-bus. That's a risky and aggressive move even if scum had time to plan it; it's seems ludicrous to me to assume that would be scum's first instinct coming off losing an ally.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

No, I'm voting for DDD for reasons I expressed in my previous post before DDD cranked up the asshattery to 11.

Yeah that was a phenomenal argument, "DDD is lurking... like usual; probably a suspect". You listed one thing, ignored the entirety of the rest of the game and then explained the one thing away as typical of my play and somehow I'm supposed to respect you or that argument when you then immediatly claim me as your top scum suspect.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Keeping things in context. Jahudo joined an Amished wagon after Sotty, myself, and Ekim voted for Locke with strong feelings that he was scum. At that point Jahudo could have looked at the situation and considered Amished a lost cause.

Bullshit, Amished wasn't even the biggest wagon at that point and it was six to lynch. Three players voting would hardly make a player a complete lost cause.

As to the point about immediately cross bussing, I find that argument a bit... alarming actually as the window of time they were cross bussing was actually pretty brief toward the end of the day. Amished flipped his vote to Jahudo as momentum was building on that wagon as it was also becoming clear that his Percy wagon wasn't going anywhere.

No, they did not immediatly cross bus but two remaining scum both jump hard onto their partners wagons on day two after a correct day one lynch? I'm not buying that and you aren't either anymore.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Keeping things in context. Jahudo joined an Amished wagon after Sotty, myself, and Ekim voted for Locke with strong feelings that he was scum. At that point Jahudo could have looked at the situation and considered Amished a lost cause.

Bullshit, Amished wasn't even the biggest wagon at that point and it was six to lynch. Three players voting would hardly make a player a complete lost cause.

It's not necessarily about size. It's about who's on the wagon, how strongly they feel about it, the quality of the arguments, and how likely scum perceives them to be able to convince the rest of the town to lynch.

The Hohum wagon was bigger, had players who looked more town and at least as quality overall and the wagon was on Hohum who about everyone in the game has wanted to lynch at one point. I don't buy for a second that with such a viable option open that they'd instead chose to bus.

As to the point about immediately cross bussing, I find that argument a bit... alarming actually as the window of time they were cross bussing was actually pretty brief toward the end of the day. Amished flipped his vote to Jahudo as momentum was building on that wagon as it was also becoming clear that his Percy wagon wasn't going anywhere.

No, they did not immediatly cross bus but two remaining scum both jump hard onto their partners wagons on day two after a correct day one lynch? I'm not buying that and you aren't either anymore.

But you argued that they immediately did. The way it happened I actually could see if scum were panicking.

... anyway

I tend to think there's a good chance that Amished is town in spite of your arguments, not because of them.

The immediately part was irrelevant to my argument, personally I'm of the opinion that the last thing they would do in a panic is try to bus again after Jahudo already did that day one.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Vi, did you really just go through all that mental gymnastics just to come up with the Hohum/Reck/X possibility after clearing myself, Sotty, and Zach that I've been touting for a while now. Seems like a lot of work just to get back to my post 1000 with your obvious change of switching Amished and you. I don't think it's suspicious just kind of amusing that you wrote so much just to go back two pages.

Zach, you're not getting my lynch so really if you have a prefrence between Reck and Hohum it's time to make it known.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

*sets out xRECKONERx bait*

Pointless, I'm just waiting for Amished to show up and break the tie as to which VI dies today.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

For various and sundry reasons I think I want a massclaim before we get too far gone into D5.

I think I want an order of Vi, Sotty, Amished, Me though I imagine Sotty and I should negotiate this since everyone with working brain cells agrees that we're not mafia.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Opposed to massclaim at this time.

Well then we're at an impasse because I'm not sure I can really form an opinion at this point without one.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I imagine Sotty and I should negotiate this since everyone with working brain cells agrees that we're not mafia.

Nah brahh

I said people with working brain cells, clearly you were not included in that group.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

As for massclaim, I would have thought that any power role with helpful info would have come out with it already so we could process everything. Why do you need an MC to form an opinion Triple D?

Becuase I've based my view of the game assuming it was a 9/3 setup, but I'm growing increasingly wary that it's 9/2/1 and I think a massclaim would give information that would help me decide which is more likely.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@xRx: As soon as the 4 of us can decide on an order.

I requested Vi to go first and she's stated that she's willing to claim first. After that I say we just go with a popcorn claim though unless Vi surprises me I'd imagine the order of that is pretty predictable.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Hmm, I thought I already wrote up a post noting that I wasn't going to say what I'm looking for in a massclaim until it's already happened because I don't want to give scum any ideas about how they should claim, but it looks like that was just in my mind.

As for the breaks, well if I think we're in 9/3 then either you or Reck is the last scum, bank on it. If we're in 9/2/1 well I really haven't gone back and looked at the game for this scenario but I think it'd be a real mess and I'd need to give the entire game a re-read, so basically put all of you back on equal footing barring potential claims.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I think you're bluffing.

Who is bluffing? And about what?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I mean you're approaching RECK-levels of stance definition.

I am cut to the quick.

I tried to write a post in response that wasn't completely mocking but it wasn't happening. The mere implication that my course of action today would be beneficial for scum-me is downright laughable and of course that even ignores my play of the first four days.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I tried to write a post in response that wasn't completely mocking but it wasn't happening. The mere implication that my course of action today would be beneficial for scum-me is downright laughable and of course that even ignores my play of the first four days.

Humor me. Why?

Assume I'm mafia, I have made it clear over the last one-two days that I think the last scum is in Vi/Reck we have two lynches, badda bing badda boom. Coming into D5 I have Amished pretty well convinced of the idea as well, that means I just need to convince Sotty who thinks I'm town to lynch you or to convince Reck to vote you under threat of his own lynch. Oh sure there might be some WIFOM in 3P LYLO, but that's a pretty clear path to victory. So if I'm scum I have called into question a clear path of victory for a mass claim when there were obviously no roles indicting me as scum and the possibility that claims could clear my targets.

The situation gets even screwier if you run with the idea that I'm an SK where I had the same clear path to victory but then decided when no one else was thinking about the possibility of a SK I introduced it into the conversation for no possible benefit that I can see.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, up to you I guess.

Man if I can believe that claim it's awesome because I think it would wrap the game up for the town.

J

esus, this use of replacements is just

C

owardly. hiding

behind a tool that's merely supposed to be for game management, not strategy.

K

ill 'em all is my policy right now.

Claim: Jean-Claude Killy, Cowardly Hider

The role is more a re-directing role than a traditional hider role. Each night I target someone and any actions targeting me instead target the person I choose. Nor do I die if I hide behind scum.

N2: Percy
N3: Hohum
N4: Reck

I assume N2 that scum tried to kill me and that got sent through to Percy which makes more sense to me than scum trying to kill Percy straight up especially after I was a primary in lynching two scum.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I don't see how you could say that you thought DDD was scum after being on both scum day long-lynches (pretty sure) and neither of the town quicklynches. It just seems like a huge oversight when you've brought up your wagon analysis earlier this game so it is something that you look at. To ignore something like that... just outrageous in my eyes.

Huge oversights are the only kind I make.

The fact that DDD was on both scum lynches was acknowledged a while ago; it's a large point in his favor (albeit one he didn't bother to bring up).

I mean you're approaching RECK-levels of stance definition.

I am cut to the quick.

I tried to write a post in response that wasn't completely mocking but it wasn't happening. The mere implication that my course of action today would be beneficial for scum-me is downright laughable

and of course that even ignores my play of the first four days.

I also learned in a recent game that while being a braggart about my awesomeness at finding scum (or at least being on their lynches) is natural to me it tends to turn the rest of the town against me.

~~~

I'd probably disbelieve DDD's, since I think it's very convenient that he happened to be the target on N2 and switched with Percy, as I see no reason why he would be the NK target.

Yeah, it's not like I was in second position on a pair of scum lynches the first two days or something.

Vote: xRECKONERx

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Well shit. Now what? If I pick wrong, I get a draw. If I pick right I get a win. I believe that's what you call a free roll.

This is wrong, because it would mean as long as I'm not lynched scum cannot win the game. Thus, scum must have a "Win when equal to 50% of the town" win con and not a "Win when the entire town is dead or nothing can prevent the same" win con.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, I hope to God that I'm right about you.

You are, though I'm still not sure about trusting you.

~~~

I have no idea why you would assume a happily ever after/draw without knowing the scum win con. And I still think my 1148 holds true.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Lovely, you two have till the nebulously defined, "tonight" to make any actual case that you're town and the other guy is scum before I vote. You don't need to put together pages and pages of stuff just show me a paragraph or two of the narrative of why you're town and the other guy is scum.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

The very exciting conclusion to this game will be delayed temporarily due to "technical difficulties".

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Sotty's case makes better sense and it's extremely hard for me to reconcile her D2 action with scum when she had a clear path to killing hohum and chose instead to essentially hammer Jahudo. However, I do keep coming back to Amished's claim and he keeps giving those little details that make it seem authentic. But I keep coming back to the "worst case is a draw" shtick especially given MY role which as I've said would make the game impossible to win for scum as long as I'm not lynched and I don't find that believable at all and I think he was just pushing so hard to try and get someone to vote quickly to get an easy hammer. Conclusion...

Vote: Amished

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Fucking, fucking, fuck.

This might've been the best ever first two days of a game I've ever played. I forced the ortolan lynch, the next day I immediately tagged the other scum though couldn't get any momentum for her lynch and then swung to get the third scum lynched on that day and then it all went to hell anyways and I fucked up the end game.