Mini 896 - Jekyll Mafia - Game Over

[MacavityLock]

You want a catch up post? Oh, I'll give you a catch up post. Here are points I'm focused on after my initial read.

The game starts off basically with 5cvm's shitty gambit, the false dilemma stuff, and a bunch of inactivity. 5cvm's gambit makes no sense to me coming from either scum or town. I just don't see the motivation either way, but it's too damn weird (especially the "80-90%" stuff) to just ignore. I have no major issues with Slaxx as yet, but I will keep an eye out.

As for the false dilemma stuff, I'm absolutely on the side that says it

was

a false dilemma, and raider latched on. I don't have a major problem with the "raider's experience" issue, and nothing else he did really jumped out at me too heavily, but I'm keeping an eye here too.

I'm now going to skip to the point where activity picked up more and there was interesting stuff to pick up on.

The first thing that really jumped out at me was Gerhard, over posts 235, 240, 242, 246:
In 235, his top 3 is Suave, Kiku, and raider. In 240 declares top 3 of Nacho, Kiku, and raider, no Suave. He then votes Kiku in 242. He subsequently switches to Suave in 246, as far as I can tell based solely on xvart and Nacho showing suspicion on Suave. This is a strange sequence in a very short period of time, and it looks to me like Gerhard wanted to make sure to position himself well on whatever opportune wagon came up.

I actually don't see a problem with it [Nacho's post regarding the Unity replace]. He wants the game to keep moving, so he asks the mod where we're at. Perhaps the mod has a couple maybes, or he found one and the guy just hasn't posted yet. It's off topic, so I don't see how it's relevant.

If he tries to pass it off as pro-town activity, then we have an issue.

I will never understand why people answer questions directed specifically at someone else. By saying this, Gerhard tipped off Nacho that he would find it scummy if Nacho claimed it was pro-town. Why protect Nacho?

Unvote: 5cvm
Vote: MrSuave

That's five, L-2. My only concern is MrSuave just gave up and isn't interested in the game anymore; but lynching a lurker isn't a bad thing either way...

Policy lynch talk about a proven townie. Not the biggest scumtell in the world, but there may be something there.

MrSuave - You are not trying. You haven't done shit since I voted you. At this point it would be more beneficial to the town to mislynch you rather than a scummy, cuz they will keep you around till lylo, and you will make us lose.

Prove me wrong.

This is just awful. It suggests that Gerhard knows Suave is town: "

rather than

a scummy", "

they will

keep you around".

Having been in another game with Suave, I'd say that he's a scum's dream town player, especially if scum can get people to walk down the policy lynch route.

@xvart, am I correct in thinking you don't feel that Mr Suave or 5cvm are scummy, but rather badly playing townies?

I definitely think 5cvm is scummy. I'm fencesitting on MrSuave, and switched my vote based on his responses to the increased pressure. I was hoping some increased pressure (up to L-2) would get some answers, content, responses, etc. and would be satisfied returning my vote to 5cvm but with the lackluster response by MrSuave I can't tell if he is just a townie who doesn't know what to do to get out of his current predicament or a resigned scum member.

If so, who does strike you as scummy currently?

I'm going to keep my vote where it is for now, but I would switch to 5cvm or even raider when the deadline approaches and their responses. I think I was the first one all over raider and my pursuit of him went nowhere; but since others are chiming in now I would be happy to go back and put some more pressure on him. My top clear scum reads are 5cvm and raider.

I don't really understand the "voting for pressure, but I have people I think are scummier" stance. It's very strange and could be scummy, though I think it might be mitigated by the approaching deadline at the time.

Really now? So the original scum tells that started this wagon in the first place had nothing to do with it? I find that very interesting indeed.

This is re: xvart's L-2 vote on Suave. Why is this all that interesting? Why do other peoples' scumtells matter to xvart's case? Is xvart required to sign on to every scumtell pointed out before voting for someone?

Unvote
Vote : MrSuave

He is proving to be a distraction in my eyes more than anything else. Blatant anti-town play, not contributing at all to the discussion, answering one-liners to some of the less important questions. Regardless of his alignment, he is hurting the town. If he isn't lynched today, and he continues to play as he is, he will only distract us from our task of scum-hunting and generating helpful discussions.

More policy lynch talk about proven townie Suave.

So Peanut, do you really think Mr Suave is scum or are you just voting for him because he's not helpful?

Peanut pointedly ignored this question, and it was never answered. I think this shifts the null-to-scum policy lynch talk up to the level of scummy. This is because now it's not just policy lynch talk, it's trying to hide said policy lynch talk as well.

Even if he [Suave] ends up flipping town, he will be such a distraction and scum would probably try to use him to their advantage (especially in LyLo) that it might be better to policy lynch him to save us the headache, and in day 1 that isn't too bad because we can get more information out of his wagon then out of him.

Hey look policy lynch talk.

Green Canyons, your info will be just as good tomorrow as it is now. The only reason to delay a hammer is if the info is relevant to the lynchee, and may be influenced by him. This is not the case, so I don't see how waiting will add to it. We need to move into D2 so that the people on MrSuave's wagon can move on to something new, and will be able to act on your information.

And what if GC got night-killed? What if he had something important to say? This to me is attempting to limit information and really stands out as a scumtell.

I noticed that Nacho basically disappeared at the end of the day, especially for someone pretty active in the early going. Something to keep in mind.

tl;dr:

Vote: Gerhard

. He's easily my top scum suspect.

[MacavityLock]

I'm sure you'll find that it can't really be a scum-tell when two-thirds (8 of 10 not counting you or Suave) of the players mention it.

Yes, that's why I said "Not the biggest scumtell in the world, but there may be something there." The fact that you ignored HH's question is what bumped it to truly scummy for me. I see that you addressed the fact that you missed the question, so now I have to decide if you're lying about that or not.

I will examine the comprehensive list that you provided, as I certainly may have missed some in my read.

[MacavityLock]

I thought the day should have ended, and I stand by it. If he had info he was free to post it.

If GC had info, you potentially prevented him from providing it.

1) I said I'd be good with a policy lynch. Was, still am. He deserved to die.

OK, but how did you know he was town?

2) Xvart ignored the reasons for the initial case. That I find interesting.

You failed to answer my questions about this. What was interesting about it? Was it scummy? If so, what's scummy about it?

The lynch yesterday was clearly "steered" from 5cvm to Suave. We should lynch the 5cvm slot today to see if there was a reason. Thoughts?

Definitely needs more analysis, and yes, a case. Also, ambiguity: Are you proposing this, or just trying to get reactions?

[MacavityLock]

Why vig HH?

[MacavityLock]

Night vigs definitely exist. I've modded a game that had one, and seen many others. Waiting on raider's response.

[MacavityLock]

Game I modded with a 1-shot vig

Game I was in with a vig

There are probably 2 or 3 other games with night vigs I can pull up, if you need.

[MacavityLock]

If GC had info, you potentially prevented him from providing it.

No. I had no power to prevent him from posting his information, please don't pretend like I did.

You're right, prevented is the wrong word. Encouraged others to not allow the information to get out is the better phrase.

OK, but how did you know he was town?

I didn't. I thought he was scum. The post you are taking issue with was meant to imply that I would have no remorse if he were town. He deserved it.

The wording you used suggests that you knew he was town.

You failed to answer my questions about this. What was interesting about it? Was it scummy? If so, what's scummy about it?

It thought "bite me" made it pretty clear I had no intention of answering that question. I am not going to until the time I deem most opportune. That time may never come.

No, it was not clear. It is now. It's also pretty clear that you're just trying to avoid answering my (reasonable) question.

[MacavityLock]

The wording you used suggests that you knew he was town.

Why don't you point that wording out to me.

I already did that.

MrSuave - You are not trying. You haven't done shit since I voted you. At this point it would be more beneficial to the town to mislynch you rather than a scummy, cuz they will keep you around till lylo, and you will make us lose.

Prove me wrong.

This is just awful. It suggests that Gerhard knows Suave is town: "

rather than

a scummy", "

they will

keep you around".

If a case ever comes up on xvart, I will happily answer that question. Until then it would not be prudent.

Any interest in making one? Or are you just going to latch on to one, when it's made available to you?

[MacavityLock]

Yeah, this isn't very hard. Raider claims vig and claims the only kill from the previous night. That kill was of HH, a guy who seemed pretty townie on my intro read, and raider never once mentioned suspicion of him. Looks like a scum nightkill to me.

Unvote. Vote: raider

[MacavityLock]

It's the unnecessarily early power role claim and the fact that he killed HH (who raider

never

suggested was scummy) that clinch it for me. I am of course not certain of anything, but it's an Occam's Razor situation.

Directed kill I'm not so much a fan of, as he can choose to go off the reservation only when it's opportune for him to do so, and if we keep directing him to townies, he could survive to LYLO. I'm fine with self-vig, as long as we get people to agree beforehand that he's the lynch the following day if he doesn't self-vig.

I generally use the term "scum" to indicate all non-townie parties. I don't think the presence of an SK in the game matters one way or the other to my thinking. Why do you think there might be a SK in the game? Why does it make more sense for him to be SK over maf? And even if he is SK, while his flip would provide no connections, it would completely eliminate one night kill. I'd say it's

more

beneficial to take out the SK over the maf. But we have no proof that an SK even exists in the game. I just think it's likely that raider is scum, some type of.

----

Gerhard's answers don't satisfy me at all. If we decide to have raider self-vig, I will likely be moving my vote back to him.

[MacavityLock]

I agree about SK, but that makes so little sense, given the fact that there was only 1 N1 kill.

Gerhard, 3 questions. First, did the mod confirm in saying that you were roleblocked, or did you just receive "No result"s and infer from there? Second, is it possible that kiku Jailkept you on both N1 and N2, as opposed to getting roleblocked some other way i.e. scum? Last, does your role have a name, and if so, what is it?

[MacavityLock]

1) I got "no results" and went from there.

Are you 100% sure that "No result" is not the

expected

result from an innocent investigation?

2) It is possible that Kiku jailkept me, but I find it highly doubtful. The presence of a rolecop near guarantees it was the scum in my mind.

When do you receive your cop result, over the night or at the beginning of the following day?

A theory in place of the SK theory is that there could be someone that kills anyone who targets them. It's just a thought. I don't have that much experience, but I figure there should be some type of role like that. correct me if that is not a possibility. I'm just trying to think of stuff.

I think this is called a Paranoid Gun Owner. I don't think I've ever been in a game with one, though a townie fakeclaimed as one in a game I was in. I guess this is plausible.

On that note, I'm finding the assumptions going along with night action/role speculation to be weirdly self-convinced of their truthfulness.

I agree, especially in Gerhard's case. Do you have any opinion on the 2 kills last night?

[MacavityLock]

When do you receive your cop result, over the night or at the beginning of the following day?

I don't know. I would assume at night though. Both times the day had already started and my PM was waiting for me.

Mind checking timestamps?

GK, why did you investigate who you did?

I investigated Kiku because she was my D1 suspect, and I investigated Macavitylock for my own sense of vindication, and because I didn't have a better option in mind.

Any reason you didn't investigate kiku again, given that you had voted for her again, and was I assume one of your top suspects?

Also, please don't attribute things to me that I didn't write.

With both the Jailor and at least a role blocker gone you should be able to investigate tomorrow. If you survive the night.

What roleblocker is gone, other than kiku-Jailkeeper?

I have suspicions but no proof what so ever. From another game I'm in I'm learning that proof is much more worthy of attention than simple suspicions.

What proof are you expecting today?

Slaxx, do you have any case on xvart/Pulindar

other

than his lurking?

[MacavityLock]

@MacavityLock, could you elaborate on the Paranoid Gun Owner role, because it seems more plausible to me than anything else?

Having seen it claimed in a game I was in (as I said, falsely), I read up on the PGO on the wiki. That's really all I can give you.

[MacavityLock]

Peanut, given that you didn't know what PGO stood for, but you say you were specifically provided that acronym in your role PM, why

didn't

you wiki it or ask for clarification from the mod?

Nacho, based on your outcome from your numbers game, why didn't you unvote Peanut?

Also, I think there's a major flaw with your numbers game. In the scenario that Peanut is SK and doesn't kill tonight, there's no guarantee that he wouldn't kill the subsequent night. I tried to do the numbers game myself, as I am wont to do, and at the point of examining night 4 occurrences, it spiraled out to way too complicated to come to any major conclusion.

[MacavityLock]

Nacho, I still don't see it. To make that kind of "must not kill SK" declaration, it really has to be 100% clear that not killing the SK will lead the town to a better position. Right now, I see cases where not lynching the SK will lead to unwinnable for town. That's

not

good play.

Still, I'm not convinced that peanut is SK. Can anyone make a case why peanut

isn't

a PGO?

Slaxx, xvart's been replaced by Pulindar. Are you talking to Pulindar there? Are you saying his lurking is any worse than everyone else's in the game?

I'm leaning towards ML being a second scumbag.

Why?

I need to read WNH to see if I can find connections. Sorry I haven't had a chance to do that yet. Semester just started, and I was teaching all last week.

[MacavityLock]

Still, I'm not convinced that peanut is SK. Can anyone make a case why peanut

isn't

a PGO?

I'm curious how asking the question in this format is more useful than asking for someone to make the case that peanut is a SK. Furthermore, you're asking someone to prove a negative. Walking dangerously close to the whole asking someone to prove a negative.

They're actually pretty much equivalent questions in this situation. I think that we can all agree that peanut is unlikely to be maf. Therefore, he is either town-aligned and unlikely to lie about the fact that he is PGO, or he is 3rd party (probably SK) and is lying about being PGO. It boils down to PGO or SK, right? So, (not PGO) = (SK) in this case. That is, I'm just as interested to hear a peanut-SK case as I would be to hear a peanut-not-PGO case.

Still owe a wnh read, which has been prevented by jury duty.

[MacavityLock]

I think that we can all agree that peanut is unlikely to be maf.

Why?

Peanut has pretty much claimed the wnh kill, one way or the other. I think it's pretty unlikely that the maf killed one of their own. (Is that even possible?) So, if peanut is maf, we're left with him covering for the true wnh-killer, who would likely be an SK. I guess this is possible, but I really don't see any incentive for peanut-maf to cover like this, especially given the manner in which he claimed PGO.

[MacavityLock]

OK, I did my WNH connections read. My favorite scumtells based on connections to known scum are people the scum found suspicious but didn't deserve it, people the scum didn't find suspicious but did deserve it, and the same tells from living players to the dead scum.

Ecto and wnh played a pretty tight game in this regard. Their only votes were as follows:
Ecto: Nacho (RV), Gerhard (minor tell), raider (dead, don't care), Suave (dead)
WNH: 5cvm (same basic role info case as everyone, pile-on?), Suave, raider

And other than the votes, their other suspicions were on dead guys, unless I'm missing something.

People who voted Ecto/wnh: Nacho (RV), Gerhard (OMGUS on above minor tell vote), and again unless I'm missing something, that's it.

One thing that jumps out at me is Ecto & Nacho RVing each other. But other than that, based on "faked" suspicions or non-suspicions, I'd say Gerhard comes out looking worst, but it's really minor.

Given my other suspicions of Gerhard, I think he's the most likely to be maf buddies with wnh, even if has cop claimed without a counter.

Still, I'd like to get the peanut stuff sorted out first. Who wants to make the peanut-SK case? Right now, I do think he's more likely to be PGO, but I also think that he should absolutely be the lynch if he is SK.

[MacavityLock]

In your point against me, you're failing to realize that I am against peanut's lynch; not only am I against it, but I'm also offerring good alternatives for people to lynch instead. Wolf used that point to get his suspect lynched. I'm using that reason more, combined with worst case scenario thinking to make sure that the town doesn't do something incredibly stupid.

Nacho, if we lynch peanut and there are 2 maf remaining, we will likely be in LYLO. This is true no matter whether peanut is SK or PGO. It's not a good situation, but it's not a town-auto-lose. If we don't lynch peanut and he is SK, there is a reasonable chance that we end up in a town-auto-lose situation. This is why I would want peanut gone if he is SK. Guaranteed crappy but winnable situation vs the possibility of being without a chance for a win.

peanut, I don't think you are, but if you are SK, good job. It doesn't look like you'll be getting lynched today.

----

I can't answer for what Phantom was thinking in his cases. I do think that at least in some of your points against him, you're trumping stuff up. Post 110, for example, seems to be Phantom voting 5cvm for creating a bandwagon based on the famed "role info". Phantom uses the word "creating", but there's definitely a difference between

building

a bandwagon (normal) and

forcing

one (what 5cvm did). Seems a reasonable call out to me. And after 254, he abandoned the game, so of course he failed to produce a follow-up. Is flaking scummy?

The minor tiff between wolf and Macavity in Post 376 and Post 377 feels incredibly forced.

I called out a lot of people for the policy lynch stuff. WNH responded to it first. Not sure how that implicates me.

1)

Post 376: The reasons for voting Gerhard are pretty weak and baseless. His "top scum suspect" is there with pretty bad reasons.

Why are they bad reasons? If you think so, why didn't you point them out at the time?

2)

Post 417: Attempts to keep alive his horrible Gerhard voting logic. "The encourage others to not allow the information to get out" is an especially egregious rewriting of history.

What do you call the following?

Someone drop it like its hot.

Green Canyons, your info will be just as good tomorrow as it is now. The only reason to delay a hammer is if the info is relevant to the lynchee, and may be influenced by him. This is not the case, so I don't see how waiting will add to it. We need to move into D2 so that the people on MrSuave's wagon can move on to something new, and will be able to act on your information.

He's specifically asking people to end the day, when you had suggested that you wanted to put some analysis in. I read that as him being afraid of what your analysis might show.

3)

Post 459: Getting to be downright hilarious: Seeing that the claimed cop has investigated him, tries to paint "no result" as "innocent" to give himself a free pass.

Let's assume for the moment that Gerhard is cop. He got a No Result on kiku, who has flipped town. He got a No Result on me, and I know I'm town. I wanted to be sure he wasn't missing the obvious.

4)

Post 519: Still pounding the "Gerhard is scum even though he's a claimed cop who has been very vocal about his suspicions of me" drum.

"Has been vocal about his suspicions of me" is really disingenuous. The timeline is a bit muddled here because I'm a replacement, but I've been suspicious of Gerhard since I've entered the game, and as far as I remember he wasn't suspicious of Phantom. And other than his claimed investigation of me, where has he said that he's suspicious of me? Like even once? He's just called me and my case stupid and gotten defensive.

The fact that we haven't had a counter-claim is one of the reasons I've been hesitant to vote him today.

[MacavityLock]

On the other hand I hate MLs case against Peanut. Even if Peanut is SK (distinct possibility) his survival could help us. He could be the target of Mafia to keep him from NKing them. Or he could target them. Either way, I like keeping him in play at the moment.
Also, if he is PGO then it'll be extremely difficult/ risky, for Mafia to NK him. Could be a huge boon to town in that case.

It's not a case on peanut, it's a case on getting rid of an entire scumgroup when we have the opportunity to do so. Trusting a SK to work for the benefit of the town is so dangerous.

Right now, I don't think peanut is SK, and I agree that keeping a PGO around is a Good Thing.

[MacavityLock]

I do think that at least in some of your points against him, you're trumping stuff up. Post 110, for example, seems to be Phantom voting 5cvm for creating a bandwagon based on the famed "role info". Phantom uses the word "creating", but there's definitely a difference between

building

a bandwagon (normal) and

forcing

one (what 5cvm did). Seems a reasonable call out to me.

You're shifting the issue that I pointed out. Scummy. The problem with Post 110 is that PHANTOM takes issue not with the fact that 5cvm "created/built" or "forced" a bandwagon, but that PHANTOM specifically says that bandwagoning without prior knowledge of who is and isn't town is scummy.

Let me complete the thought for you. I think that Phantom's point "bandwagoning without prior knowledge is scummy" is wrong in cases of building bandwagons. You and I agree there. However, in the case of forcing bandwagons, which 5cvm did, "bandwagoning without prior knowledge is scummy" makes sense to me. The distinction I made between building and forcing is what distinguishes whether or not Phantom's argument is wrong.

And after 254, he abandoned the game, so of course he failed to produce a follow-up. Is flaking scummy?

After 254, he had Post 309, where he did not follow up. Once again trying to misdirect. Scummy.

309 is clearly a precursor to flaking. My point stands.

I called out a lot of people for the policy lynch stuff. WNH responded to it first. Not sure how that implicates me.

wolframnhart "cracked down" on you in 373 which prompted your 376. His followup in 377 bookends a strained back-and-forth. It implicates you because when we catch scum we look at how they interacted with other players because it can tip us off as to other scumbags. The fact that you already voiced this tactic in Post 519 - not even a whole page ago - but are now failing to see how it is helpful in discerning wolf's scummates is telling. Scummy.

376 was my first post of the game, and I had been working on it over the night as I replaced in. The fact that wnh "called me out" has nothing to do with why I posted it. If you see a connection there, that's your read, and you have every right to make that case. But I

know

that there's no connection, because I'm town.

Why are they bad reasons?

If you think so, why didn't you point them out at the time?

Bolded portion is a great Ad Hom. Scummy. You're trying to excuse the bad logic by discrediting the person bringing the accusations. The fact that I didn't catch scummy logic in my first read of the situation has no bearing on the validity of that scummy logic.

It's a legitimate question. The fact that you didn't say anything before but are now may be scummy, and I want to figure out whether it is or not. It's in no way ad hominem.

1)

You criticize GK for "answering" for Nacho, when he was merely stating his opinion on the matter when, IIRC, lots of people were stating their opinions on the matter. Furthermore, you state that GK is somehow protecting Nacho by tipping Nacho off as to what GK would consider scummy. GK's basis of suspicions aren't the standard for the town; therefore, what he finds to be suspicious is not what anyone else will or will not find suspicious. This whole Nacho protection line is a big reach.

No doubt, this is the weakest of the things I pulled out about Gerhard in that first post. It's something, but it's minor.

2)

You criticize GK for his wording but it's clear that he's intent on lynching Suave due to his anti-town play - which may include Suave just being a really bad townie. You take a big leap with suggesting that GK "knew" that Suave was town.

His wording suggests that he knew. Why is that a big leap? I pointed out the specific phrases and everything. And I wanted to know why he used the wording he did.

3)

You take issue with the fact that GK was making notations as to what reasons behind the Suave wagon xvart was and was not supporting. ... Such a non-issue (it's good to know what reasons people ascribe to when they hop on a wagon) and you're blowing out a lot of hot air to look like you're actually making a good point. You're not.

My point here is that Gerhard is throwing dirt on xvart for absolutely nothing. It reads like he's setting himself up to join any xvart-bandwagon later with his "interesting" comment. The fact that Gerhard still hasn't backed up what was interesting about it just emphasizes the fact that the comment was bullshit.

4)

Finally, you focus on GK for asking someone to end the day before I put in my two cents, ignoring the fact that Kiku actually did the hammer (she was town, by the way) and other people such as Hacker (he was town, by the way) supported her doing the very thing you're criticizing GK for supporting. Your fixation on only a single player who merely supported a hammer at that point in time while ignoring other players who voiced the same sentiments and the actual player who performed the hammer is what is so telling.

Bullshit. HH's last post before the hammer was

Let's give Green Crayons until Thursday to post before anyone drops the hammer. I'd like to see what he has to say before we go to night. If anyone's strongly opposed to the Mr Suave lynch, you better speak up now.

And kiku waited until said Thursday (late in the day) before dropping the hammer. Gerhard was the singular player pushing, and did so after HH's post.

Also, you missed the thing that first jumped out at me: Gerhard's weird sequence of votes and suspicions in 235-246. Anything wrong/scummy about that?

Let's assume for the moment that Gerhard is cop. He got a No Result on kiku, who has flipped town. He got a No Result on me, and I know I'm town. I wanted to be sure he wasn't missing the obvious.

Okay, scumbag. The "obvious" isn't that GK was misinterpreting "No Result" as being blocked even though there was a dead roleblocker, the obvious is that "No Result" means that GK was unable to get a result. Which means there was no result, so alignment cannot be discerned. Keep on trying to stretch that paper thin logic to try to cover your butt, but it doesn't fly. Scummy.

You're calling me out for the use of the word "obvious"? There was a chance that Gerhard could have cleared me, and at most it would take asking the mod. I wanted to make sure we took that opportunity. If that cleared me, it's not only good for me, it's good for the town. Confirmed townies are good things. And the same question would have applied had Gerhard gotten a No Result on any other player still alive at that point. (I can't honestly say there was

no

self-interest in the question, but it still would've helped the whole town.)

"Has been vocal about his suspicions of me" is really disingenuous. The timeline is a bit muddled here because I'm a replacement, but I've been suspicious of Gerhard since I've entered the game, and as far as I remember he wasn't suspicious of Phantom. And other than his claimed investigation of me, where has he said that he's suspicious of me? Like even once? He's just called me and my case stupid and gotten defensive.

Post 461 GK notes that he attempted to investigate you because of the back and forth from D2. GK obviously views you as suspicious, you see this as a threat that needs to be slandered and, if possible, lynched. Because you're scum.

And yet he's never voted me. Or made a case on me. Or done anything towards me except fail to satisfactorily answer my questions. I don't feel particularly threatened by him at the moment, nor did I when I first found him suspicious, which is

immediately when I entered the game

. You're calling me out for OMGUS, when I was the one who

initiated

any conflict between Gerhard and me/my player slot. And if he is scum, yeah, I want him lynched.

You're making a case pre-supposing I'm scum. That's pretty easy to do, on just about anyone. Not only that, but your attacks on me are awful, in some cases demonstrably incorrect. I'm still really wary on Gerhard, but given no cop counterclaim, it's time to look into the rest of your posts to see if you're scum or just misguided town.

----

My last word on SKs (for now): A vig is town aligned and has incentive to do what the town needs, which includes not killing when the additional kill is bad for the town. A SK does what will help the SK win, nothing more. A SK is a ton more dangerous than a vig.

[MacavityLock]

My last word on SKs (for now): A vig is town aligned and has incentive to do what the town needs, which includes not killing when the additional kill is bad for the town. A SK does what will help the SK win, nothing more. A SK is a ton more dangerous than a vig.

And now is one of these times. The only chance peanut has if he's the SK is if he cooperates with the town tonight. So, we have nothing to fear in leaving him alive today.

Ever heard of NK immunity? It's a pretty common SK perk. In my opinion, there are just too many variables to consider leaving a SK alive. The whole debate is moot anyway, peanut isn't getting lynched today.

[MacavityLock]

Ever heard of NK immunity? It's a pretty common SK perk. In my opinion, there are just too many variables to consider leaving a SK alive. The whole debate is moot anyway, peanut isn't getting lynched today.

If he has NK immunity, he kills a scum today, we have 2 town members left, 1 mafia member left, and him. Town gangs up on him with mafia, mafia wins.

What incentive does town have to do this, giving maf the win? In this situation, the town might sacrifice one of their own to force the prisoner's dilemma, as you suggested in 490, giving a NK immune SK the win. TOO MANY VARIABLES.

Anyway, this debate is stupid and I'm done with it. It has no bearing on today's lynch.

Now, what don't you like about my answers to GC?

[MacavityLock]

Now, what don't you like about my answers to GC?

In post 536, you asked a shitload of questions, but you didn't defend yourself as much as I would've liked you to.

What exactly in GC's 534 did I not defend that I should have? I can't answer for Phantom, so let's skip over all that. Nor can I answer for Ecto/wnh's actions. And I responded to every one of his points against me. What do you even mean by "defend" here?

And there is the whole SK opinion you have... you seem absolutely convinced that peanut being SK would screw over the town, but you are comfortable with leaving peanut alive.

Because I think that peanut's play is far more consistent with being PGO than with being SK.

Now, let's back up a minute here. No matter if I'm town or maf, I can't know whether peanut is SK or PGO. The

only

way is which my response to peanut could be anything but null/my true opinion is if

I'm

a SK, and thus know that peanut probably isn't one too. If I am SK, all of GC's connection points against me go out the window. So, either you believe GC's case against me, or you think that my play around peanut is scummy, but it can't be both.

[MacavityLock]

Why are they bad reasons? If you think so, why didn't you point them out at the time?

Well, there's this. Instead of explaining why your reasons weren't baseless, you just ask why they're bad.

Don't I need to know why he thinks they're bad before I can respond? My attacks weren't baseless, as I provided the reasons for my case in 376. Stating my arguments again would have been redundant.

You misunderstand me. The SK scenario is far more likely to screw over the town, than it is the mafia. You're worried about SK completely screwing over the town, and you point out how it could be an autoloss... But you ignore how peanut reacts after the initial accusation, and simply insist that Peanut's play just seems protown to you, and you're willing to let him live simply because of that.

Again, I'll say that peanut's play seems more consistent with being a PGO than a SK. And given the way I've been reading him and this game, I'm not interested in his lynch. If someone did manage to convince me that he is SK, my vote would be on him immediately. What's the problem here?

[MacavityLock]

What's the problem here?

There is a strong possibility that he is the SK, and you believe that him being an SK could screw over the town. Yet, you are still confident in putting your vote somewhere else.

Because I don't agree with you that there's a strong possibility that he's SK.

[MacavityLock]

No one has made a SK case on peanut. You and GC have said "Hey look, that's SK-like" and not said why. Not only that, but there clearly aren't the votes to lynch him. I don't think peanut is SK, and no one else who does cares enough to do anything about it. What else would you expect me to do?

And again, why does any of this make me scummy?

[MacavityLock]

You know what?

Vote: Nacho

for glomming on to a crappy case with even crappier reasons.

I'm still going to try to get a read of GC in, but my gut is that he's misguided town here.

[MacavityLock]

376 was my first post of the game, and I had been working on it over the night as I replaced in. The fact that wnh "called me out" has nothing to do with why I posted it. If you see a connection there, that's your read, and you have every right to make that case. But I know that there's no connection, because I'm town.

This isn't actually a response, or a defense. The point is, in 376 and 377, you had a weak back and forth that neither of you bothered following up on. You're "I know there's no connection because I'm town" isn't even a valid defense; anyone can say they're town, but that doesn't give us any reason to believe it.

I have no control over what wnh posted. I posted my intro post 376. And that's all I did.

The only thing I picked up from wnh on my initial read was the policy lynch talk. As peanutman pointed out in 378, everyone had policy lynch talk, a bunch of which I missed on my first read. Given that, I didn't follow up on

any

of the policy lynch stuff.

If you don't think that's a response or a defense, it's because you're expecting me to explain wnh's posts, which is impossible.

He's specifically asking people to end the day, when you had suggested that you wanted to put some analysis in. I read that as him being afraid of what your analysis might show.

There's this suspicion you have on Gerhard because he wanted to end the game early. You fail to acknowledge that his cop claim kinda explains that.

Why would a cop claim have anything to do with this? Ending the day early doesn't mean that his investigation (if he has one) will be any more effective. GC's promised analysis post would if anything only give

more

info on who he should choose to investigate. This argument makes no sense.

You're calling me out for the use of the word "obvious"?

Hypocrisy is a great way to find scum. I'm pretty sure it was you who made the case that Gerhard was scum because he knew MrSuave was town based on his wording...

Strawman.

How does using the word "obvious" make me scum?

The whole "No Result" thing is also quite stupid. You tried to get yourself cleared by saying that No Result = innocent, and even you have to admit that's one hell of a stretch.

No matter if it's a stretch or not, it costs nothing and possibly gains the entire town a cleared townie. This is beneficial to the entire town. How does trying to clear myself make me scum?

More people need to vote Nacho now. His entire post is scummy, illogical, and wrong.

[MacavityLock]

And that's all I did.

...and that's the problem. You never followed up with any interaction with wnh at all. Also, you're defending against connections by saying "I can't explain his posts", although it was you who brought up the suggestion in the first place...

Go back and look at who interacted with wnh. It's approximately no one. The fact that you're singling me out is crap.

Ending the day early doesn't mean that his investigation (if he has one) will be any more effective.

He's a cop. He has a night action. He has a theory on who is scum. He wants the day to end early to see if his theory is right.

This is dumb.

How does using the word "obvious" make me scum?

Pointing out hypocrisy is not strawmanning... And it's not the fact that you're using the word obvious, it's the fact that you're calling Green Crayons's argument stupid when you youself used the same argument against GK earlier.

Not at all the same argument. What about using the word "obvious" in the manner that I did makes me scummy?

No matter if it's a stretch or not, it costs nothing and possibly gains the entire town a cleared townie. This is beneficial to the entire town. How does trying to clear myself make me scum?

Well, if those were truly your noble purposes, you would've asked the mod. Scum want to look as townie as possible. So it makes more sense for scum to try to ask GK, "hey, have you ever thought that No Result = Innocent" than it does for town to.

Why would I ask the mod, when I don't even know if Gerhard is a cop or not? It's not my job to figure that out, it's Gerhard's. Also, why shouldn't a townie want to look as townie as possible?

More people need to vote Nacho now.

Heh, I don't mind if I get lynched today. After all, if I get lynched and flip town, guess what scum will get lynched tomorrow?

Good, let's lynch Nacho-scum then, and we'll figure out a 3rd scum tomorrow. (See how I flipped it?)

[MacavityLock]

Didn't see GC's post before I posted.

Slaxx has kind of slipped under the radar for me. I don't like his Pulindar vote, but other than that, he seems reasonable. Pretty darn neutral in my book.

Has any of the recent back and forth changed your opinion of Nacho?

[MacavityLock]

Go back and look at who interacted with wnh. It's approximately no one. The fact that you're singling me out is crap.

Lesse... Wolf attacked kikuchiyo, he followed up on those attacks. Wolf attacked HackerHuck, he followed up on those attacks. Wolf attacked you... nope, no follow up.

And I can't answer for what wnh did. If that's your argument, fine. But I can't defend it, and if you expect me to, you're expecting the impossible.

This is dumb.

Beautiful response. Why is it dumb, though?

I already told you why. There was no reason Gerhard had to rush to make his investigation. Waiting costs him nothing.

Not at all the same argument. What about using the word "obvious" in the manner that I did makes me scummy?

You: "GK, your wording was scummy."
GC: "ML, your wording was scummy."
You: "That's a crap argumment, GC..."

If you'd like me to explain past the basics, I gladly will.

The wording Gerhard used suggested that he knew that Suave was town. I pointed out the wording and explained why I thought he was scummy because of it. The wording I used tells you what exactly? "Wording" isn't an argument, it's a wrapper for an argument.

Why would I ask the mod, when I don't even know if Gerhard is a cop or not? It's not my job to figure that out, it's Gerhard's. Also, why shouldn't a townie want to look as townie as possible?

Umm... you could just ask the mod "Hey, if a cop investigates someone, does 'No Result' = Innocent?". And if it was Gerhard's job to figure out his investigation results, then why did you bring it up in the first place?

Again, not my job. Why would I ask the mod that? Usually in these situations, a mod won't answer questions about other potential roles in the game, only your own role.

And I already answered why I brought it up: If it cleared me, that's good for town.

Townies shouldn't worry about looking town; they should focus on scumhunting.

Focus on scumhunting, sure. But townies shouldn't worry about looking town? That's important to preventing mislynches. It may not be at the top, but it's a priority.

[MacavityLock]

But I can't defend it, and if you expect me to, you're expecting the impossible.

You can explain why you didn't follow up, for a start.

Hey look I already did that.

The only thing I picked up from wnh on my initial read was the policy lynch talk. As peanutman pointed out in 378, everyone had policy lynch talk, a bunch of which I missed on my first read. Given that, I didn't follow up on

any

of the policy lynch stuff.

Are you even reading my responses?

I already told you why. There was no reason Gerhard had to rush to make his investigation. Waiting costs him nothing.

It costs him nothing but patience, which might be something he doesn't have a whole lot of. And impatience alone is not a scumtell.

But ending the day early, without waiting for what could be good analysis is. Are you saying that I should have taken what Gerhard did in it's towniest possible light? If I do that, would I I even be scumhunting anymore?

The wording I used tells you what exactly?

By saying you wanted to make sure that he wasn't missing the obvious, you were using it as an anaphor to "No Result = Innocent", which is a bit of a stretch no matter which way you look at it.

So what if it's a stretch? The risk (i.e. nothing) is rather overshadowed by the reward (i.e. cleared townie). And you still haven't answered why it's scummy. By the way, what does "anaphor" mean?

In asking the mod, you could actually clear yourself as opposed to just confusing GK.

So, now I'd be confusing Gerhard? You're really trying to find something scummy about this, but can't. This is getting hilarious.

No, not at all. You prevent mislynches by defending yourself the best you can, and trying to find who the true scum is. And if you are lynched, all of your scumhunting is made valid, and people know that none of it were lies. So, they can take a closer look at it and use it to help them find the real scum.

And if I get cleared immediately, then people know that my scumhunting is good and legitimate right away, and can act on it while I'm still alive, and don't need a dead townie to do so.

[MacavityLock]

He's taken my original points against you to what he believes to be their logical conclusion.

So, you don't think the fact that his arguments are so obviously wrong and scummy is a reason to think that the following might be more likely?

If I am to assume that I am incorrect and my points against you are worthless and you are town then the only suspicious aspect of his behavior is that he's buddying up with me to use my incorrect suspicions to provide a cover for his attack on town.

Mod

: Would it be selfish of

me

the town to request an extension of some sort? I know that we had an extra long day due to absences that was squandered during that extra time, but... Uh. Please? I think the pick up in activity is an indicator that we will actually use it.

I'm for this. The deadline's coming up in <12 hours now at this point, right?

[MacavityLock]

Please explain how his incorrect arguments are scummy and we should, therefore, view him with suspicion.

OK then.

Nacho jumped onto my wagon based solely on your case, and because he "didn't like my responses". When asked what he didn't like about my responses, he claimed that I failed to defend myself enough. I still don't know what this means, and why it makes me scummy. Since then, he has come up with a series of responses that it's clear he came up with at the moment of posting. For example, continuing with he "didn't defend myself enough" thread, he said

Why are they bad reasons? If you think so, why didn't you point them out at the time?

Well, there's this. Instead of explaining why your reasons weren't baseless, you just ask why they're bad.

It's clear to me that, having made his previous statement about me asking too many questions, he needed to find a case where I questioned instead of defended myself. Given the context, of course, it's clear that "defending myself" in the way Nacho is purporting that I should have is not possible. He's making arguments in the moment, and having to come up with reasons after the fact. This is a scum tactic.

Note the exact same stuff re: the SK debates. He says it's scummy, and then has to scramble when questioned as to why it's scummy. As I pointed out, there's literally no way for my SK opinion to tie me to being maf. He's trying to throw any additional dirt on me he can find, even when it's patently ridiculous dirt. This is a scum tactic.

Similar after the fact reasons re: Gerhard and his cop claim. One point he tried to make is that I shouldn't have found Gerhard's excitement to end the day early scummy. When it came down to it, Nacho's argument boils down to the fact that I shouldn't have been scumhunting. Another point is that I shouldn't have questioned Gerhard about "No Result = Innocent". This was at best a pro-town action, and at worst a null with self-interest action. He is trying to make a show of the fact that it was scummy, when it wasn't. This is a scum tactic.

He strawman-ed with the "wording" argument. Strawmanning is a scum tactic.

Having responded to every question he's had (sometimes having to repeat myself, because he failed to note my answers), and being unable to demonstrate why anything I've done is scummy, he has not acknowledged that he might be wrong. As far as I can tell, his case on me comes down to the way wnh treated me in 373 and 377. If I do end up the lynch, admitting that his case is weak would lead to obvious problems on subsequent days, while if he doesn't admit it, he might be able to slide it under the table. This is scummy.

This is all compounded by two things: 1) He put no work in when jumping on my wagon. It was purely GC's case. 2) We were very close to a deadline, and at that point, every vote matters. The fact that he did not have real arguments against me is very telling.

----

In other news, Nacho's iso 1 is classic Chainsaw Defense.

----

Given the way this all happened, with GC putting in a lot a effort, and Nacho latching on to a prettily-organized case, I definitely think that Nacho is opportunistic scum here, with GC more likely to be town. However, I'm not satisfied with our back and forth like you are, GC.

There are bunch of things I want you to respond to from my 542. I'd like to know why you tried to pass off kiku and HH as acting similar to Gerhard, when they were clearly on different sides of the day-ending issue. I'd like to know if you have any issues with my call out of Gerhard's 235-246. I'd like to know why you too think my "No Result = Innocent?" stuff is scummy. And I'd like to know why you're calling me out for OMGUS on Gerhard when my issues with Gerhard obviously have nothing to do with OMGUS.

----

Slaxx, you posted before Budja extended the deadline. Why didn't you comment on the upcoming deadline and the fact that we're nowhere near a consensus for a lynch?

----

Budja, thanks for extending. Has Gerhard picked up his prod?

For everyone else, given the disparate votes right now, how can we come to a consensus?

[MacavityLock]

EBWOP:

Given the way this all happened, with GC putting in a lot a effort, and Nacho latching on to a prettily-organized case, I definitely think that Nacho is opportunistic scum here, with GC

more likely to be town.

"... more likely to be town than Nacho."

Not "... more likely to be town than scum." I haven't decided that bit yet.

[MacavityLock]

You can have suspicions and you can build these suspicions over the various pages and game days, but if you're town you will never

have knowledge

as to who is and isn't scum - with the only exception being if you're an investigative role, but even then that's potentially iffy and certainly not a viable option on a D1 no-night start.

Isn't the point that 5cvm was faking the fact that he was some sort of info role, and used that non-existent info to force a bandwagon?

My point is that he did not follow up his 254's weak summary of his opinions. Your point is that he flaked so of course he didn't. My point is that he made another post - 309 - prior to flaking, where he ignores his promise to follow up with his opinion on other players and simply comments on the topical issues rather than completing his player list of opinions.

Where do you get that he ignored his promise?

I apologize again for being absent in this game. I haven't paid attention to this game the last time I posted,

and I still need to work on the second part of my analysis.

Not everyone has your apparent ability to catch everything suspicious their first time reading posts. Indicating that my suspicions are subject to being suspicious 1) before you know what those suspicions are and 2) by the very simple fact that it required me to reread the thread - especially after the fact that we finally have some direction with wolf's scum flip - to glean these suspicions is subtle jabbing at my character as a player and laying the groundwork for discrediting me; and, by extension, my suspicions of you. Ad hom.

I never said you had to be perfect in your read every time. I wanted to know why you didn't find the issue earlier. That's not an attack against

you

, it's a question that I wanted answered.

By the way, Wikipedia of Ad hominem: "An ad hominem argument has the basic form: Person 1 makes claim X, There is something objectionable about Person 1, Therefore claim X is false." I don't find you objectionable, GC. I wanted to know what changed between then and now, because something clearly changed. Why am I not allowed to question that?

It's a big leap because - IIRC - several people were voicing the opinion that Mr. Suave might just be stupid town but that it was a bet worth taking because, besides scum/sk, useless town is the second best lynch option because they hurt the town. If that was the general atmosphere surrounding the Suave then GK's wording isn't as big of an issue as you're making it out to be.

You don't think "rather than a scummy" is a telling phrase?

And my point here is that you are really stretching in making Gerhard's comment suspicious. All he did was make a throwaway comment regarding the motivation behind a player's actions. Nothing more. He didn't follow this comment up one way or another. This is a molehill, not a mountain.

So, from now on when I'm scum, I'll just bring up things as "interesting", and never follow up. Because that's not suspicious at all.[/sarcasm]

Gerhard's hammer request was on Thursday in Post 344. There were a total of

three posts

between his asking the hammer and kiku actually dropping it in Post 348. kiku defends her hammer in Post 351. Hacker thinks her hammer was fine in Post 359. I echo Hacker's sentiments in Post 361. xvart echo's Hacker's/my sentiments in Post 362. All of these people either actually did the hammer or supporter kiku's hammer. You ignore them in your criticism of Gerhard because he made a request for a hammer

three posts before the hammer that you don't have a problem with!

Ugh.

Don't blame inactivity. Look at the timestamps. HH created and kiku stuck to a self-imposed deadline. Gerhard was the only one acting impatient here. The post-hammer stuff doesn't factor in at all.

I'm calling you out on the use of the word "obvious" because what you claim to be the "obvious" assumption flies in the face of common sense. A "No-Result" investigation means exactly what it says in the name: there was no result. You were trying to push an awkward position ("A 'No-Result' investigation means that they're just innocent!") solely for your benefit and at the expense of the town.

Please demonstrate how it was

solely

for my benefit, and in any way

at the expense

of town.

You initiated conflict, yes. That conflict escalated to the point where he felt it necessary to investigate you. You, seeing that you have been investigated, attempt to frame his No-Result as somehow making you town. When that idea gets shot down, you roll back to your original plan of getting Gerhard lynched - who just so happens to be the unchallenged claimed cop - now that kiku the roleblocker is out of the picture and there's nothing stopping him from investigating you once again.

Except I haven't voted Gerhard today

because

of the uncountered cop claim. I'm happy to let him live to another night, see if he gets an investigation off and survives. If it's of me, that's fine. It's not perfect, because he'll get an innocent, and I'd much rather that he investigate, you know, actual scum. But if he still thinks I'm the most suspicious, then so be it.

[MacavityLock]

GC, no comment on either my reasons Nacho is scummy or my rebuttal to your 578?

Slaxx, no comment on my case on Nacho? Also, no answer as to why you didn't comment on the upcoming deadline?

[MacavityLock]

Slaxx, you posted before Budja extended the deadline. Why didn't you comment on the upcoming deadline and the fact that we're nowhere near a consensus for a lynch?

[MacavityLock]

First of all, his position on peanut. In my mind, there is a pretty large chance that peanut is the SK. However, we could have as many as two scum left, so our priority should definitely be focusing on the mafia because at the moment, they are a far greater threat than Peanut the SK is, and lynching him today will only be wasting time. Macavity is convinced that an SK could completely screw over the town, yet is convinced the peanut is a pro-town PGO. This is scummy because he hasn't pursued the issue at all with peanut; instead, he's been begging for someone to make the case on peanut being SK so he can hop on the wagon himself without giving a whole lot of reasoning for it. His quote on 536: "peanut, I don't think you are, but if you are SK, good job. It doesn't look like you'll be getting lynched today." read to me that he was just giving up on the peanut lynch. I guess that I'm also biased because I can see how lynching peanut today benefits the mafia, but I can't really see how it benefits the town.

OK, a few things here. First of all, if you think peanut-SK is such a strong possibility, why are you entirely unable to present a case? Second, how does one pursue a SK? Should I ask him "Are you the SK?" Third, if lynching peanut would have been such a good thing for me, why wouldn't I have tried to pursue, or even tried manufacture a case on peanut?

Secondly, I don't like how he's been trying to clear himself since he's been under fire. First, there was the whole "No Result = Innocent" situation

And why wouldn't a townie try to clear themself?

then there was the false dilemma in 578: "Either you believe GC's case on me, or you think that my play around peanut was scummy.".

It's only a false dilemma if you don't realize that my actions regarding peanut make me no more (or less) likely to be maf.

He's also been playing extremely defensively, and he never really pressures anyone, not even me. He just points out that my arguments are inherrantly wrong and scummy, and that everyone should vote me.

You do realize that according to you only a few pages ago I questioned too much and didn't defend myself enough? Now I'm playing too defensively and don't pressure (i.e. question) anyone. Are you kidding me?

Lynch this guy now please.

I pointed out since he does have a night action, then he was most likely just waiting for night to come so he could investigate who he thought was scum. There's also the point that Gerhard didn't actually END the day, he just expressed impatience at the day's length.

I didn't realize this until now, but there's a major flaw with you thinking that this was an bad tell from my 376: At the time I posted 376,

I didn't know that Gerhard would claim cop.

Maybe that's an issue now, but at the time, I had every right to call it out.

Make no mistake, I still think it's an issue, and put no stock in Nacho's "Gerhard was just impatient to get to night" crap. But whether you agree me on Gerhard's impatience or not, Nacho is trying to attack my argument from my first post (Day 2) with information we only received on Day 3. Scummy! I'm annoyed I didn't catch this earlier.

And if he was really so afraid of Green Crayons's analysis, then do you really think that he forgot that we could all talk during twilight?

Twilight lasts an indefinite period of time. There's no guarantee that GC can fit his analysis post between a hammer and when Budja checks the thread. The earlier the hammer happens, the earlier night happens. You're reaching.

Erm, when the motive is simply self-preservation, I can't agree with you that it's a nulltell.

And why are you so sure that it's simply self-preservation? Clearing a townie helps the whole town! What don't you understand about this?

GC's attack on you for using "obvious" was based on wording (missing the obvious instead of missing a possibility), which suggests that you're using bad logic to keep yourself alive. Surely you see that similarities...

My use of the word "obvious" occurred well after the fact of Gerhard's not being able to clear me. Once Gerhard confirmed that No Result was different from Innocent, I was no longer interested in clearing myself via his investigation. Not once after he confirmed that fact did I attempt to clear myself that way. I only used the word "obvious" in explaining to GC why I would have asked the question in the first place. How is that bad logic?

----

Gerhard, why claim scum?

[MacavityLock]

Perhaps. I'm up for lynching him, at any rate. Does anyone have any suggestions as to lynch order just in case there is a kill command on the hammer? (My vote goes to peanut.)

Can you explain? I really don't understand your meaning here.

GC, I understand your point on the false/not false dilemma. However, one problem I have here is that this is based solely on your reads. From your perspective, I see it. But if someone doesn't agree with your case on me or my case on Nacho, to them it will absolutely be a false dilemma. In 605, you're acting as if me vs Nacho is true for the whole town. Response?

----

Gerhard, I'd like to hear your true night actions as well.

[MacavityLock]

If Gerhard's reason for getting himself lynched isn't that he's a complete douche, then I'm speculating that he might have some sort of lynch-triggered ability (such as being able to take the hammer with him). I think we should consider this a potential scenario and act accordingly.

Yes, I understand that. I don't understand what you mean by "lynch order" and choosing peanut.

Therefore, my suggestion is a dichotomy - but, to me, not an incorrect one.

Right. I understand why you don't think it's a false dilemma, and I'm fine with that. But in 605, you are suggesting that the town acts as if it's a true dilemma.

[MacavityLock]

Yes, I understand that. I don't understand what you mean by "lynch order" and choosing peanut.

The order by which we vote for Gerhard's lynch, since I'm speculating that GK might have a lynch-triggered ability. The suggestion of peanut being the hammer is because if Gerhard has a "kill the hammer on my lynch" ability, I would want it to be peanut.

Gotcha. It was saying "lynch order" as opposed to "hammer-er" that was crossing me up.

Yes, I am suggesting that the town act in the manner I believe is true. Do you find it so unbelievable that a player would want the town to act in the manner they believe to be the right way to go about catching scum? I don't understand the basis of your questioning. I want the rest of the town to see and understand my arguments and then agree with them.

It was a pressure question. I'm satisfied with this answer.

[MacavityLock]

Gerhard, I'd like to hear your true night actions as well.

What reason would I have to tell you?

That's an answer in and of itself.

Therefore, if your claim is true, then 1 heavily indicates that either ML or Nacho is your partner (those two having the most critical attention on them at the moment) or, to a lesser extent, peanut or myself (the other two players with critical attention focused on them, just to as great of an extent). There was no real threat of a GK-lynch, so forcing the town's hand into lynching GK suggests that your partner was on the verge of being outed.

I find this to be likely, with Gerhard jumping in front of the bullet for Nacho being the most likely. This suggests a scum PR. Considering switching my vote to Gerhard, but given the previous, will keep my vote on Nacho for now. I would happily join a deadline wagon on Gerhard.

I am discounting the possibility of Gerhard as scum supersaint, scum vengeful, or jester, as all of these roles would be more appropriate in a Bastard mod game.

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I've seen Vengeful Scum in a mini

normal

, and I've seen jesters in Mini Themes.

Link on the game with vengeful scum?

And why would you stay on the me-wagon, rather than get on the Gerhard wagon? We could take care of one self-professed scum first, THEN deal with the problems you have with me when we're in a decidedly better position...

The fact that you're asking this of me, when you haven't voted Gerhard, nor made any indication that you will, only reinforces my thought that Gerhard is protecting you.

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You provided a link to the Mini Theme forum, not the specific game. Game link please.

when you haven't voted Gerhard

Well, that's because I'm up to the block as one of the people to hammer him, silly.

I assume I am too then. Why are you calling me out for not being on the wagon when you and I are basically in the exact same position regarding Gerhard?

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http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12533 >.<

<vomit> I hate that as a role. But I guess it is possible.

GC doesn't care as long as it's you or me,

I want Slaxx to hammer

, and Pulindar wants me to hammer; I'm assuming you do too. Thus, I'm the person fated to hammer... right?

That's news to me. I figured you'd be for me to hammer. Did I miss this, or is this the first time you've said it? Why choose to have Slaxx hammer when you're still voting me?

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OK, it looks to me like Pulindar and peanut can't be scum together, otherwise they would have hammered Slaxx-town and won.

Nacho opening with a vote and no explanation in what is almost certainly LYLO is massively problematic to me. I'm pretty sure that resulting play guarantees that at least one of Nacho or Slaxx is scum. Given my yesterday arguments, my gut says that it's Nacho. Though there is no doubt that Slaxx's lack of contribution is worrisome, especially in the GC-Nacho-ML debates.

However, I've got a theory. Without Gerhard's intervention, who do people think was most likely to get lynched yesterday? The way I'm reading it, I'd say that Nacho was at the top of the list, with Slaxx coming on late. Does this opening look to anyone else like a manufactured busing attempt between 2 scum? One of them gets lynched with a huge push from the other, thus making it look like the other is clean for the following Day 5. (E.g. Let's say Nacho-scum heavily pushes Slaxx-scum to a lynch. Day 5 we have a 2/1 where Nacho can say "I pushed scum to the lynch yesterday, I'm obv-town.")

The one flaw in this theory is that Slaxx didn't immediately vote for Nacho.

No votes yet from me, certainly.

Given LYLO, how do people feel about a massclaim?

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Pulindar, unvote immediately! We have more than enough time to debate.

[MacavityLock]

Reading over the claim. Probably makes sense to read over Slaxx's previous posts, but the claim seems believable on the face of it. Nacho/Pulindar makes sense here, but I want to be careful before dropping a vote.

[MacavityLock]

Yeah, I believe the claim.

Vote: Nacho.

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OK, post-game notes:

First off, great job by wnh and Slaxx. I think our team worked pretty well together. It was at least partially my fault due to code words, but wnh's post to start day 2 (calling me out for Phantom having lurked) was almost a massive killer for us.

I should have trusted my instincts when recommending rolecopping targets. My first instinct on reading the game was to have wnh rolecop Gerhard, which would have showed us the cop. Having wnh investigate peanut and dying due to PGO was another huge problem we were not expecting at all. I don't think I'd ever been in a game with a PGO before, so it was quite a surprise.

Gerhard is officially on my blacklist. Claiming scum like that, and especially pretending to provide scumbuddies, is a big no-no. Funnily enough, both Slaxx and I were pretty pissed about the way he imploded. Throughout Day 3, my plan was to find someone to get mislynched (ended up being Nacho), and get myself re-investigated by Gerhard, where I would have shown up clear. I could probably have coasted to a win at that point, even if Slaxx got lynched the following day. As it is, the game feels a bit cheapened by the fact that Gerhard did what he did.

GC, great job finding good ties between the wnh player slot and my player slot. A lot of what you found was good scumtell. Then again, some of it I still disagree with. You have no idea how close I came to OMGUS-voting you after your attack post on me. Then I realized that the vote would be a horrendous idea, given that a lot of it was good call out. So, I had to wait until I could find something else to go after, which of course ended up being Nacho. Honestly Nacho, a lot of your tells on me were not great, and many of the things you called me out for I probably would have done as either town or scum.

A couple underrated reasons town didn't do well: 1) kiku blocked the cop on both nights. Then again, had she not blocked Gerhard on Night 2, he would have cleared me, so maybe the blocks helped the town. 2) Raider vigged HH, which made him an easy target for Day 2. By the way, we killed HH Night 1 as well, so that was a doublekill, and the reason why there was only one death on Night 1.

Anyway, good game, thanks to everyone who stuck it out, and thanks to Budja for a really good setup. If people want to see the scum quicktopic, I have no problems releasing it. What do you think Slaxx and wnh?

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I think we worked well together too. Those three minutes in between our votes were the longest three minutes of my life.

I can imagine. I was around, as promised :}

Lesson learned, if everyone posts while someone is at L-1 at lylo then you found scum.

Yeah, you're probably right, but damn, how ballsy would it be for 2 scum to come out swinging at someone like that during LYLO.

Well, 2 out of 3 is enough for me. Scum QT

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1) 5cvm's gambit at the beginning

No crapping idea. You were so close to rightly lynching him on Day 1. (80-90%? That's some crap right there.) But luckily for us, Suave intervened. I wasn't kidding when I said he was a scum's dream townie.

Peanut, had you claimed Day 2, we wouldn't have rolecopped you, so all in all, you probably saved this game from being an absolute blowout. Seems like it would be a damn tough role to play.

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Posted a similar note in the other game:

OK, so now that both games are over, I can finally say it. I was in a hugely awkward situation in that I was in 2 games simultaneously that included me, WNH, and peanut. In this one, WNH and I were scum together, against peanut town. In the other, peanut and I were scum together, against WNH town. You have

no idea

how awkward that was, but I think we all managed to keep the games separate.

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Feel free to check our QT, but we killed you because after Day 2, I thought you were a cop and already had a guilty on Slaxx.