That's right, we're on a deadline. That means we need to get to workfarside22 wrote:This ^ and in a 2 week time we need to get most people to agree with the person who needs to be pushed down to the point of lynch.HackerHuck wrote:This is pretty wrong. Unless we end up bunching up people together, it gets progressively harder to move people up or down the list the more we do it.SpyreX wrote:Yea its just like complicated voting. Random shoving doesn't hurt anything."
No loafing! 
Not exactly. Random shoving is the process that creates work, but it's not itself work.Jahudo wrote:Where's your work? Or by work do you mean random shoving?SAMP wrote:That's right, we're on a deadline. That means we need to get to work right now
Active shoving isn't enough to avoid the lynch, or at least it isn't for me.farside22 wrote:basically.HackerHuck wrote:Just to be clear, the higher the number, the closer one is to the end of the line and possible death, right?
I realized also this shoving is meant to have those that are active shoving to stay on top.
I don't know why people think random shoving is a good idea at all.FOS: spreyx and Super Awesome Mega Pimpfor thinking it is.
All people have to do is be active to keep from going to the bottom and being lynched today.
I have about 3 people misleading the numbers of where people are on the list.
Do not go by what you think the average is people stay the line in order as is. It is not that difficult to copy the person above you and move each player down a number.
I ran the numbers and I'm second closest to lynch. Only pwnman is closer than me right now.
True. If there's scum near lynch, their buddies can shove them to a better position, so a scum lynch won't be easy today.farside22 wrote:Seriously?And, really, this is different than most games how?
Dude unless you are not reading this game it is the person with the lowest average that will be lynched today. Not the person with the most votes so if the scum team is an active bunch that has nothing to do better in their lives but to keep themselves from having their average at the bottom the likelyhood of getting scum to the buttom is going to be hard.
But I think there's a bright side, 
the information gained from shove-switches will be a lot more useful than typical vote records. Once we get a scum, we have more than just a list of who protected scum and who didn't, we have hard numerical evidence of who was most protecting scum. It definitely absolutely positively is not an overall average. DGB's second shove count proves this beyond all doubt: that count is the mean of Minineko's, Spyre's and my first shoves, and Elli's second. It doesn't take Elli's first shove into account at all. (Not to mention the fact that it would be a really bad modding decision to make it an overall average, since I could just shove you to 12 and copy and paste it ten million times and you wouldn't be able to do anything about it, except shove me to 12 ten million and one times.HackerHuck wrote:SpyreX, you fail to see the point.
First off, I'm not entirely sure that you're correct so it's not helpful to keep random shoving in case it is an overall average. Secondly, a whole bunch of useless shoving does harm the town because we don't get a good idea of who is scummy. You're arguing that random shoving doesn't put anyone in any danger. Random voting kind of works because it can start wagons. Without that kind of a mechanic, random shoving just fills the thread with noise and we're not really going anywhere with it. That's a pretty crappy way to find scum.
) With random voting, some people wind up close to lynch and some people don't, and someone has a reaction to that. How is random shoving different?I have myself at 8.1 right now. I presume the discrepancy is because you have pwnman still ranking me at 2, he EBWOP'd that to a 6. But other than that I have the same figures.SpyreX wrote:1. UncertainKitten 5.6
2. Minineko 6.7
3. Ellibereth 5.0
4. Jahudo 5.7
5. SpyreX 4.3
6. Max 6.4
7. farside22 6.3
8. HackerHuck 8.0
9. Super Awesome Mega Pimp! 7.7
10. Cobalt 7.7
11. pwnman 8.4
12. Grimmy 5.8
The right order is the one listed in the first post: Why do you say Max is town?Ellibereth wrote:Farside...You know I get chatty a lot, at least more than a little...
Max and Cobalt = Town.
Cobalt wrote:I lol'dCobalt 11 - full of fluff. No content = scummy
Why? If it's genuine it has no bearing on his alignment, because he didn't know his alignment when he made the decision to post about it - therefore that decision cannot be alignment-influenced. Is there something I'm missing here?Ellibereth wrote:Max's whole win condition thingymajig looks genuine. He's town.
No it isn't. Allowing obvious scum the chance to slip out of a lynch because of an alternative wagon is bad. Best case scenario, the alternative lynch is also scum; even then, we're still no better off than if we'd simply lynched Cobalt. I suppose if someone else becomes at least as obvious as Cobalt is, I'll consider lynching them instead, but I'm not exactly holding my breath on that.Max wrote:I dislike post 132 by SAMP - tunneling is never good for town. Why threaten to do so? I agree that he is looking awfully scummy and I'm probably going to push him down the list somewhat but tunneling is BAD
I reread the first page, IEllibereth wrote:I think only town would have made the statement he did. Gut town read.
If Max is telling the truth, while he didn't get his wincon, he did get the rest of his PM, which didn't name any scumbuddies. Now I feel stupid I said "answer me or I'll policy lynch you". Policy lynching Cobalt is very much not poor play, it'd be the correct play today even if he wasn't obvious scum. Letting people dodge questions is suicide.Minineko wrote:Not feelin this post. Sounds like you're saying "answer me or I'll play poorly".
Pimp's important questions are:
"Why did you lol at Jahudo saying you had no content?" (this one's fine)
and
"Why must haters hate?" (because they're haters)
Meow.
why did you claim? Why did you copy portions of your shove reasons from Jahudo? Minineko wrote:attack on cobalt while interrogating pwn (with a repeated question, ironically) is odd
How so? Just because Cobalt is very definitely scum and I want him lynched no matter what anyone else does, doesn't mean I no longer have a responsibility to determine everyone else's alignment. Max wrote:SAMP: Willing to tunnel, intent fully manipulating the votes, as we have seen third parties exist (survivors) but going through this technique to get a lynch you want rubs me up the wrong way.
Are you saying it's not pro-town to attempt to get the lynch you want? I don't even know what to say about that, except that you're wrong.
Cobalt is now trying to call out the town for not providing cases.Cobalt wrote:hm, I seem to have attracted a lot of 11s but not a lot of cases, how interesting
I don't (see: my regdateEllibereth wrote:Cobalt's so obvtown to me it hurts. How many of you guys know his meta?
) but if his meta is intentionally playing like an utter tool It is if it works.SpyreX wrote:It sure has hell isn't some kinda awesome scum dance, though.
It creeped me out too for a second when I hit preview and saw he had posted the same shove list I was in the middle of posting.SpyreX wrote:The back-to-back exact same lynch lists creep me out.
Nice context butchery, they were very much related to the game and you know it. I asked you why you lol'dCobalt wrote:Terrible attack on me for not answering two garbage "questions" not even related to the game (asking why I lol'd, and asking why haters shouldn't hate). Also gives my other suspects low shove numbers.10. S.A.M.P.
I brought it up in 177 when I first started doing it. Jahudo didn't mention it before 261 I don't believe.SpyreX wrote:What's this we? You have a mouse in your pocket?
Actually, was this talk of inverting anywhere? Or did both of you just happen to do it around the same time?
...and then look at my past several million posts where I state my list is inverted, not town-to-scum, and come to the conclusion that it makes sense for me to question someone high on my list.Elli wrote:Look at the question to Hacker, then look at SAMP's list....
Max wrote:They are. I don't care what people argue it is inherently scummy. Doing it to get the lynch of someone you want is something.
Mine is a matter of producing a more informative lynch, i.e. "the deadline issue"
I honestly have no idea why you can't see that it's the same exact thing. By all means provide as much WIFOM regarding the identities of your buddies as you want.Cobalt wrote:umMax wrote:I believe thatCobalt is scum. I believe that SAMP is probably scum. And I also believe that SpyreX is scum.
My potential Scum list includes (but is not limited to): UncertainKitty and Minineko
My neutrals are: HackerHuck, Jahudo.
Town Leaning: Ellibereth, Farside
I think Neko's more likely to be one of his buddies, so Brilliant comeback!Ellibereth wrote:Inverted lists are stupid.Super Awesome Mega Pimp! wrote:...and then look at my past several million posts where I state my list is inverted, not town-to-scum, and come to the conclusion that it makes sense for me to question someone high on my list.Elli wrote:Look at the question to Hacker, then look at SAMP's list....FoSfor leaving that part out.
I don't believe towniest-scummiest is the best play, and I'm not doing one. If Hacker doesn't believe towniest-scummiest is the best play,Ellibereth wrote:Also, your list is NOT towniest-scummiest, you should be the LAST PERSON to criticize hacker on that aspect.
I liked Hacker's response because he answered Jahudo's question matter-of-factly, without getting all irrational or anything. Not the most reliable tell in the game, I know, but it was the first town tell I saw this game so I had no problem shoving him to 2 at the time.farside22 wrote:SAMP - post 120 - why did you like HH response and why did you push minin and pwnman back here? post 132 makes me think samp is scum for not understand max's confusion. Why do you think HH is town? post 313 and welcome to the 180 degree turn.
I don't see why you think my failure to understand the confusion is scummy. I just didn't realize the importance that the role PM template played in figuring his alignment. Unless you think scum got their role PMs in one big wall of text rather than sections, I don't see what you suspect about this. What 180 degree turn? I swear to god, I'm NOT saying this again. I don't. I only shoved him back because at deadline the choices were him and Hacker, and I thought he was more likely to be scum than Hacker, but I didn't like either choice.farside22 wrote:Since SAMP you never stated any suspicion of Mini before that shove or saying anything before. Why do you think mini is scum?
He wasn't nearly as opportunistic day 1 on pwnman and Hacker as you and Elli were.Cobalt wrote:I'm still interested in why you don't see spyrex as scum with me.
Admittedly, I had not thought of the prospect of looking back on an inverted shove list until you brought it up now, but nevertheless I don't agree that it gives nothing. My record shows I was willing to defend anyone else over Cobalt. That's certainly not nothing.farside22 wrote:I think SAMP even pointed out saying we could look back on the shove count to find scum on it but if they just invert their numbers it gives nothing on them and something they can use to cover up the reason for their list.
SpyreX wrote:Look up that SAMP thing because that would be a fishy bag of fish.
Why'd you tell her to look it up instead of looking it up yourself? Cobalt wrote:I'm interested in why you didn't jump on pwnman too, considering he was scummy as the great lakes
pwnman's actions int his game were 1) a random shove 2) a serious shove and 3) a needless claim. All of which townies do as much as scum. Your argument is invalid.Fair nuff. How's about I post the relevant quote myself?SpyreX wrote:Because I've came down with a case of the busy and I'll let farside present her information if it is going to move forward.
If there's even a snippet (and I'll look tomorrow) of you saying you wanted to look back at the lists and then you inverted them well.
And no, inverted lists don't render this information invalid. Had Hacker flipped scum, I would be scummier for having protected him, regardless of why I said I was doing it. My explanation doesn't change the hard numerical evidence.Super Awesome Mega Pimp! wrote:True. If there's scum near lynch, their buddies can shove them to a better position, so a scum lynch won't be easy today.
I most definitely did present a case on someone yesterday:farside22 wrote:Basically instead of really scum hunting you looked at the list of people near the bottom and picked one of them instead of presenting a case on someone.
Super Awesome Mega Pimp! wrote:Seriously look at the first question he dodged. I asked him what he found funny about Jahudo calling him out for fluffposting. I can think of only one reason for him to avoid this question: he couldn't answer it because he never laughed at Jahudo's statement. He is lying scum. I challenge anyone to provide a more plausible reason for him to dodge that question.
Super Awesome Mega Pimp! wrote:The ex-non-cadaver makes an excellent point about Cobalt's opportunistic shove. Don't be fooled by his facade of uselessness.pwnman wrote:You realise as soon as people jumped on me Cobalt shoved to stop his lynch.
Note that all of these points still stand.Super Awesome Mega Pimp! wrote:Nice context butchery, they were very much related to the game and you know it. I asked you why you lol'dCobalt wrote:Terrible attack on me for not answering two garbage "questions" not even related to the game (asking why I lol'd, and asking why haters shouldn't hate). Also gives my other suspects low shove numbers.10. S.A.M.P.at Jahudo accusing you of not posting contentand why haters shouldn't hateyou for your less than impressive play.
UK's argument against him was more than just "he's being weird therefore he must be SCUM!!!", she was actually assigning a scum motive to his roleclaim, unlike you and Elli, and therefore is not opportunistic, unlike you and Elli. I haven't ignored Spyre or Elli, they're still third and second on my scum list respectively. You're just the focal point of my attention.Cobalt wrote:HEY SAMP
quick question
you attacked me for an opportunistic shove on pwnman, but you ignored that SpyreX pushed pwnman to 12 as well in the first post SpyreX made after pwnman's role PM quote. Elli and UK were also all over pwnman in that interval.
You got me, I forgot all about that. You're still wrong, though. That's a little scummy and a lot of weird, not "scummy as the great lakes".Cobalt wrote:You also ignored one of the strongest points against pwnman- he was copying and pasting Jahudo's reads.
Scenario: You're town, the deadline is in a couple days, the player you've been pushing all day isn't a viable lynch, and you don't really suspect either of the players who are a viable lynch. What do you do?farside22 wrote:Lets not forget his own opportunistic shove at the end of the day to mini.
Just like pwnman and Hacker right? Anyone who still trusts your rhetoric is way too naive to be playing Mafia.Elli wrote:SAMP is still scum.
If I randomly said one plus one is three, that's not an alignment tell, it's just demonstrably stupid. The same is true of pwn's lie. I say pwn copying Jah was a little scummy only because of the possibility that it was an attempt at buddying.SpyreX wrote:Correction:
He copied Jah and then LIED ABOUT DOING IT.
That's not even remotely relevant to what I asked.farside22 wrote:I am town and I had more then one person I was suspicious of all day long.Scenario: You're town, the deadline is in a couple days, the player you've been pushing all day isn't a viable lynch, and you don't really suspect either of the players who are a viable lynch. What do you do?
I kept all those I was suspicious of down low on a list so if one didn't get lynched at least one of the other 3 would
"for no reason" isSpyreX wrote:You're missing the step that bothers me.
SAMP: One plus one is three! I figured it out!
SpyreX: Hey guys, One plus one is three! I figured it out!
GAME: Uhh... SAMP said that, why are you copying him?
SpyreX: I totally didn't I did this all on my own!
GAME: *guns cock*
Being wrong isn't the same as lying for no reason.
It isn't! It's whatfarside22 wrote:Jah: How is that different then what SAMP did?
Cobalt wrote:mini is scummy for not seeing the case on pwnman.
Just like Hacker was, right? Why does anyone still trust this guy? DING DING EVERYONE TAKE NOTICE: Elli writes a thorough account of his attack on pwnman that STILL stealthily avoids assigning any of pwn's actions a scum motive.Ellibereth wrote:AAEEFWOFAAEE!!!!!
Too scummy to be scum isn't an argument.
ARRARGH YAK FITZROWER RIP!!!!!!
I'm usually good at reading VI's, recently there was a guy who claimed he used a random generator for his rolecop target and I correctly read him as town. Difference from then and with pwnman? I can at least see why he may have done what he has done. Copying someone word for word and then denying it is COMPLETELY different.
What happened with pwnman then? Let's go back.
He posts his copied list. I immideately call him scum. He questions it, I laugh at him. Jah presents the list of copied quotes. HE IGNORES IT AND STILL ASKS ME WHYS HE SCUM. I keep mocking him. HE POSTS HIS ROLE PM AS PROOF. UK and I facepalm at the fail. HACKER SHOWS UP AND SAYS PWNMAN LOOKS OK?!?!? SAMP comes over with a breif one liner asking pwnman questions that HAD ALREADY BEEN ASKED. The rest of his post is still beaating on obv-town Cobalt. Pwnman comes in and says HE QUOTES HIS ROLE PM BECAUSE I WAS ATTACKING HIM and that HE DIDN'T COPY!!!!
Oh look it's the "you didn't attack townies? the only logical explanation is that YOU'RE SCUM TRYING TO LOOK TOWNIE" card. Anyone wanna guess what alignment loves dragging that argument out of the garbage can? Hint: it's not town!Ellibereth wrote:Case on Hacker was simple. Anyone who didn't see pwnman as scummy at the least were scum for knowing he was town. Your anti-reaction and refusal to see the ridiculously simple case on Hacker (Yes, I know he flipped town, I have no idea what he was thinking in calling pwn ok) makes me think that you're SCUM that knew both pwnman and hacker would flip town and is trying to that to press on people who wanted them dead. Not going to happen.
No loaf throw? What are you waiting for?Cobalt wrote:how would praying over a bible trigger a PR? :SSpyreX wrote:I elaborated because its not a function of my role but a function of what happened last night soooooo
I find it interesting that Jah is piggybacking on SAMP's case on me. Let me check how they ranked each other yesterday.
No. I focused on him because he really was (and still is) the scummiest player.Jahudo wrote:The way I read the tunneling is that SAMP was using a gambit to exagerrate his suspicion on Cobalt in order to get reactions. And I guess a product of that was ignoring everyone else, like Minineko.
@SAMP: Is that accurate?
Not much really. It was more the fact that there was a really bad (and therefore presumably scum-driven) wagon on him.Jahudo wrote:@SAMP: How much of your Hacker town read had to do with Hacker's post 119?
Bah, go town. farside22 wrote:I figured colbalt was scum after SAMP died but seriously the whole let me invert after saying we have something to look at was terrible logic.
:roll: I shoved Hacker low and Cobalt high, how is that not something to look at? :roll: 
