Mini 896 - Jekyll Mafia - Game Over

[wolframnhart]

Well hello everyone! Looks like I will be replacing Ecto and luckily this seems like it will be a quick catch up read. I will be posting some thoughts shortly after I am done

[wolframnhart]

Ok after a nice read here are some thoughts:


raider8169: No real read on him at this time, he could be town, he could be scum, i am leaning into scum but don't have enough to prove that theory. I get what he was saying about his vote against nacho, because yes if nacho was lynched and flipped scum, 5cvm was right and probably town, if nacho flipped town, 5cvm was lying and would have been next days lynch. Raiders next posts are explaining about his vote and then questions about others posts, but i can see some of his posts as more fence sitting, saying he wants to see 5cvm lynched, but not voting him.

HackerHuck: I believe hacker to be town. He has taken a pretty solid stance against 5cvm, explaining why he believes him to be scum, and even though he hasn't posted much, but what he has posted hasn't given me a scum vibe at all.

MrSuave: Either scum or so anti-town he might as well be scum. He still has his original RV up on Nacho, has not contributed to scum hunting at all, and admits in his game everyone thinks he is scummy, which to me says "Hey everyone, in all my other games people think i am scummy, but im not this time i swear! *sends in night action". When nacho first had votes on him in RVS Mr. Suave had said if nacho had gotten to L-1/2 he would have unvoted and said something was off. Yet when Nacho got back to L-1 Suave did nothing but ask for a vote count. To what point? He says he was too lazy to count votes, and was going off of someone else's opinion that naco was not at L-1. Suave if you are too lazy to count votes, I doubt you will be helping the town at all. If anything I see Suave trying to look town by asking for counts and saying he didn't want a hammer or day 1 to end on page 4.

kikuchiyo: Scum. I do not like the fact that she feels the need to call people assholes, not really necessary imo. Also her vote on Nacho seemed more opportunistic then anything. She claims it was because he did not answer her questions she put out there, but lets take a look at who did not answer them, which would be nacho, Unity, Phantom, Suave, and Green Crayons, yet out of all those apparently Nacho is the scummy one out of those five names for not answering you? Of course that just happens to be after 5cvm says he has info on Nacho that makes him scum.

PHANTOM: Too few posts to give a good read. it's only 7 pages so far, but still seems to be lurking more then anything.

Nachomamma8: Town. I like the questions he was asking in the beginning against Gerhard, and his opinions in general right now. He has had some pretty good insight on people and I can agree with his vote on the scumtell against Suave.

xvart: A fairly decent town read is what I am getting on this guy. Has had some good posts, scum hunting fairly well with his questions, and I like his case agaisnt 5cvm.

Green Crayons: Hard to tell. It seems like he is scum hunting, but has had too few posts or at least posts with real content.

Gerhard Krause: Another hard to tell. Not a lot of posts, but then I am noticing his posting was slightly more frequent when he was under fire, but since then have died down.

Unity: Too lurkish, no real read.

5cvm: Starts off with saying he had "role information" on Nacho, continuing by saying he not only is town, but has a power role on top of it. What town member would feel the need to say they are town AND admit they have a power role right off the bat? I can only see this as scum trying to keep people from lynching him because he

might

actually be town and have a power role. Then he goes on to say his information is more "static" and that it's all based on flavor and nacho's earlier posts make it fit. He was also calling for votes against nacho, yet seemed surprised that Nacho got to L-1 by page 4, why would that seem surprising with this apparent info you say you had against him? Which now seems to have been a gambit because you have unvoted him and placed him in the town category. Too many things don't seem to fit here for me.

All that said:

Vote 5cvm

[wolframnhart]

I believe 5cvm to be scum and not poor town because of the fact that there was no need to state he was both town and had a power role, I do not see even a poor town player doing that right off the bat, it feels more like a scum player trying to protect himself from the gambit he was going to do. And I do not mind that my vote has landed on the "lead wagon." I am not going to not vote someone just because of that. I feel that 5cvm is the scummiest right now, with you following soon after.

I do not so meta research, never have, only because I feel every game is different and people might switch up their play, and I do not want to go off an old game and be wrong, I am in this game with such and such person and am going to base their play off this game. Maybe down the road that will be a mistake for me to do, but it is how I think.

Xvatrs case against 5cvm is somewhat like mine. He is curious as to why 5cvm felt the need to claim a power role, that either 5cvm is lying about his role, or that his information is a lie (which lying is never good for the town imo).

And as far as your vote against Nacho Kik, you said:

I am voting Nacho for his decision to not answer my questions.

And now you say:

I voted the one who asnwered uncooperatively.

Which is two separate things btw. Also can you point out where Nacho gave you this uncooperative answer compared the the others that did not answer and the differences between them?

[wolframnhart]

My suspicions on each player at this time are independent. I have found that for me, if I believe in one set of people as a scum team on day 1, I might start tunneling and be completely wrong in the end. As the day(s) go on opinons might change and I could come to find out that it was three completely different people.

[wolframnhart]

Double post:

thank you for pointing out Nacho's quote, I completely missed that, even in ISO, so now I understand your reasoning better.

[wolframnhart]

Both PHANTOM and UNITY have six posts in eight pages. Both are on the 5cvm wagon, and both have pretty much only been involved in that one particular discussion, not really adding much to it themselves.

That's a good point Kik, wonder if I missed something on these two during my read.

[wolframnhart]

I'd like to get some more peoples' opinions on the two main wagons right now.

I am still fine with my vote on 5cvm at this time, but it is hard to really peg down a person when they aren't posting.

MrSuave is really starting to catch my eye a little more though. He STILL has his vote from the RV stage on Nacho, has not tried to build any sort of case or scum hunt at all, and after the mass prod all he had to say was he was against policy lynches or "shinanigans" as he put it. Very much anti-town at this time.

I can get Gerhard's vote against Nacho, but at this time I think it was all a big misunderstanding.

Gerhard, you say Nacho voted, but then later came up with reasons to explain it, I thought he did explain why he was the first time:

Unvote, Vote: Gerhard Krause

Every time you post, I get a worse feeling about you. You are bouncing from wagon to wagon, leaving your old one as soon as it starts to let off steam. You're not posting consistently, and I haven't been satisfied with any of the scumhunting you've done alone.

If I am wrong on this please explain it a little more in detail.

[wolframnhart]

Budja, i had voted 5cvm on my first post, just to let you know for an accurate vote count.

Sorry, I completely missed it. I fixed your name up too.

[wolframnhart]

unvote

I would like to hear from 5cvm first, depending on what he says my vote might end up back on him, but I don't want someone with an itchy hammer finger to vote him then say they didn't know he was at L-1.

[wolframnhart]

le gasp! pressure!

...So you are not going to take it seriously?

vote Mr Suave

[wolframnhart]

Mr. Suave you are at L-2. Do you have ANYTHING to say as far as a case against another person, some way to defend yourself and your actions (other then "people find me scummy!")?

[wolframnhart]

agreed, extension please.

[wolframnhart]

@peanut

Welcome first of all.

wolframnhart - liked his second post, clearly is putting effort into the game. However, he seems to be following the town flow since then (looking at 5cvm and mr. suave mostly) and I would like to see him follow up on his "hard to tell reads" on other players, widen this thing up.

That's understandable, and a reasonable request. It's hard not to look at 5cvm or Suave right now, they stand out as the most scummy to me. As far as the people I had hard reads on, one of whom was your replaced person, I will go off of your posts and so far, i really like your in depth look. Hacker huck I am getting good town vibes from at this time. Phantom still isn't posting enough to get a read from, same with Green Crayons.

[wolframnhart]

Deadline is four days away. We still have plenty of time to get in some good discussion. One thing I would like to know is why raider and Phantom are not voting. If they do not agree with the Suave lynch please explain why you do not agree with it at this point and also why you are not voting at all.

[wolframnhart]

I can see your point Raider, and I agree, it's just hard to think that he can claim anything at this point that would change anything on the way he has played. With him being at L-2 for a good while and people asking him to defend himself or come up with a case he still has not done anything useful.

[wolframnhart]

Any name as well.

[wolframnhart]

Whos stance on raider?

[wolframnhart]

Right now I have raider in neutral zone. At this time I still feel Mr. Suave is the best lynch today for a couple reasons:

A)His unwillingness to help is completely anti-town
B)Even if he ends up flipping town, he will be such a distraction and scum would probably try to use him to their advantage (especially in LyLo) that it might be better to policy lynch him to save us the headache, and in day 1 that isn't too bad because we can get more information out of his wagon then out of him.

[wolframnhart]

LIsten up MacavityLock, I want a catch up post of the game so far from you because you have replaced a pretty hardcore lurker and I would like to see some analysis please.

[wolframnhart]

Even if he [Suave] ends up flipping town, he will be such a distraction and scum would probably try to use him to their advantage (especially in LyLo) that it might be better to policy lynch him to save us the headache, and in day 1 that isn't too bad because we can get more information out of his wagon then out of him.

Hey look policy lynch talk.

Yes, I believe this is probably the first time I have ever brought up a policy lynch against a player because normally I don't believe in them, but can you honestly say any of us that talked about it were wrogn to do so? Look at Suaves play, had he flipped scum I would not have been surprised, he had been given many opportunities to defend himself or build a case and he did neither, and even though he turned out to be town would you really want that kind of player around in LyLo if it gets that far?

[wolframnhart]

Oi conversation slipped a bit again, also I don't think we have heard from kiku yet, or gerhard.

[wolframnhart]

Bit agressive there.

[wolframnhart]

@Kiku

can you provide examples of who did the steering and what you think of that player?

Also do you think GH defense of 5cvm/slaxx is a scum tell or a misinformed town tell?

[wolframnhart]

Hmmm GC makes some good points there.

Raider can you recap who you believe is scum please? And maybe a case against your top scummer?

[wolframnhart]

I echo Macs question, why would you vig HH? He seemed pretty townie to me.

[wolframnhart]

Also wait... a night vig? Isn't that a serial killer or a mafia member? I have only seen day vigs personally.

[wolframnhart]

*shrug* alright I just never been in a game with one then.

Curious though can you please link said game?

[wolframnhart]

GH I am curious, what do you think about Raiders claim and the fact he says he killed HH?

[wolframnhart]

EBWOP meant GK not GH sorry.

@ML
Thanks for the links, guess there are night vigs after all ^_^

[wolframnhart]

Ok this makes no sense to me.

You claim night vig, so you played the way you did to draw scum to you? What good doe that do? You can't kill them unless it is night so you say yet I think you are saying you draw votes to you to pick out the scum, but HH never even voted you!

Nacho, is there anything that you can think of that would cause 5cvm to call you out as scum per his role?

Rolefishing?

I would say that it's not a policy lynch to go after 5cvm for his behaviour and even Green Crayons has corroborated my assertion that scum do act that way from time to time. Yes, townies gambit too, but townies also do scummy things and get lynched for them, so that's a really crap reason not to vote for him. As to why he's higher on my list than those others, I don't really like the case on Nacho and while Kiku is creeping up my scum list with her reactions to your vote, I'm still happier lynching either Mr Suave or 5cvm. Considering my original vote was on 5cvm and nothing convinces me that Mr Suave is

more

likely to be scum, I'm not going to change my vote.

We've got a few more days until 5cvm is back though, so we definitely don't want to sit on our hands until then.

What are the thoughts on Raider's recent contribution. I'm starting to get the feeling that he's lurking until something happens that he can join in on.

I don't think Slaxx can really do much before deadline to convince me he's town, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt today (as long as he doesn't do anything scummy). I think Mr Suave is looking like a good lynch today, so I'm happy with my vote.

Is there a case on Raider that doesn't rest solely on his experienced/inexperienced contradiction?

And one other time before the last quote where he asked why you, kiku, and Phantom were not voting anyone. So instead of vigging someone who voted for you yesterday (Ectomancer, xvart, Nachomamma8, Kiku, and Peanutman) you killed someone who was asking if there was a better case against you and never voted for you?

[wolframnhart]

Yeah, this isn't very hard. Raider claims vig and claims the only kill from the previous night. That kill was of HH, a guy who seemed pretty townie on my intro read, and raider never once mentioned suspicion of him. Looks like a scum nightkill to me.

Unvote. Vote: raider

lol, that would be the worse scum claim ever. I should try that sometime and see what happens.

WIFOM

Any response to my post raider?

[wolframnhart]

I will save people time and effort and claim now. I am Col Hart and a vig. I am responsible for HH's death.

Ya know looking at this, he never says he is town.

Now unless there is no such thing as a mafia vig, then I would guess he is really more of an SK, in which case it wouldn't be a mislynch at all, but a third party memeber being killed.

Also out of the 11 remaining players at night alive, then chances of Raider and scum picking the same player to kill is like a doctor picking the right person to protect ont he first night, very little chance of that happening. Even IF mafia didn't submit a kill why would they do that on night 1 with no idea if there was a vig/sk whatever or not?

Something just doesn't add up here.

vote raider

[wolframnhart]

Raider: If you are left alive would you consider letting town direct your kill? Would you consider self vigging? If you are town, then lynching you is a mislynch. Both of these options would offer more use of your role. Would you consider them? Why or why not?

I would have no problem with this. Self vigging would go against my win condition so I would have a problem with that.

So you would have no problem doing something a person that you think is scum suggests, and you have some sort of special win condition?

Seriously folks third party member here if he isn't lying mafia, this is in no way a mislynch.

[wolframnhart]

Did you bother to read what I wrote?

You just said you have no problem with a suggestion that someone you think is scum brings up. Even if the town agrees on it there is no guarantee that you will even kill the person the town tell you to. Or let's say you do, for a day, maybe two days, building credibility, then when it looks like everything is all good, BAM, you kill off the remaining town because of your "win conidtion" which I more and more believe your role is some kind of vig survivor or SK role, since apparently vigging yourself is agaisnt your win condition.

So what kind of win condition is given to a person whose role is "town" that would make him loose if he vigged himself? Not town, because if it was all town would have to do is win and he would win, even if he was dead. So that leaves survivor or SK, roles that let him win as long as he is alive and all remaining town and mafia roles are eliminated.

This is a no brainer.

[wolframnhart]

Self vigging would go against my win condition so I would have a problem with that.

If self vigging would make you not loose why did you say that? That doesn't mean anything along the line of not helping out the town in the long run, that sounds more like it wouldn't help YOU in the long run.

also mod i think xvart and nacho need to be prodded/replaced?

[wolframnhart]

Welcome to the conversation nacho, i believe you were the hammer in case you didn't realize.

Last vote count:

3 - raider8169: (Green Crayons, peanutman, Slaxx )
1 - Gerhard Krause: (MacavityLock)
1 - kikuchiyo: (Gerhard Krause)
Not Voting: xvart, Nachomamma8, kikuchiyo, raider8169, wolframnhart

With 10 alive it will take 6 to lynch.

Deadline: 8th February 10pm AEST.

Then Mack voted raider, I voted raider, and at l-1 nacho voted

[wolframnhart]

Hey ya'll, here on my V/LA but I had time to post a quick something and saw that the team won!!! GO SCUM!!!

I thought people played really well through the game, with the exception of GK, no clue why he would claim scum like that and no matter the reasoning I would not want to play in a game with him again or mod a game with him in it. Had he not done that then maybe just maybe town could have won. ML had it going for the team and when I was killed by Peanut i was like SHIT! but in the end, slaxx and ML pulled it off. great job all. Budja wonderful set up and even though it took awhile the game got great at the end!