Mini 896 - Jekyll Mafia - Game Over
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Green Crayons Jack of All Trades
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Well neat. Who took forever to confirm?"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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Your first line makes it seem like you're dismissing critical responses to your random vote. But then you follow up with trying to appease that critical response. So, which is it?Gerhard Krause wrote:Must I explain my RVS reasoning?
<explains RVS reasoning>
Mindless RVS propagation. Duly noted.raider8169 wrote:Wow, lots of crap considering we are still random voting.
In other words: Hey look at me!Unvote, Vote 5cvm
He's scum just hiding in plane sight,FOSeveryone who doesn't see it!"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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You're going to love me.kikuchiyo wrote:Less quote walls please.
Why did you pick those four questions? Why you think it's more beneficial to throw up a prearranged set of talking points than allowing the conversation to naturally flow?"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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I actually gave an audible sigh.
Care to share with the whole class?"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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·kikuchiyo's self-superiority of her Nacho vote is distracting. Her questions were ill-suited for the thread since an already established conversational flow was progressing. Answering or not answering her questions does not somehow establish the "townness" of a player, as answering random, inconsequential questions does not denote who will and will not be "cooperative" - you know, in the important sense: that is, in being active and catching scum as opposed to answering questions that don't actually promote constructive activity. Furthermore, there was a bevy of players (including herself) who had not answered her question, and her insistence on voting for Nacho after 5cvm professed his role information seems to tip-toe beyond a coincidental line.
·I would actually like raider to explain his post 78 instead of people just calling him out for a false dichotomy. Yes, it is a false dichotomy. In the meanwhile, we've seen his logic and I would like his response as to if he still thinks this logic is sound. I think the assumptions made in 78 aren't inherently scum-originated, even if I do think that they are flawed.
·Nacho, why did you respond the way you did in post 64? I can understand a knee-jerk sarcastic response to such an accusation, but what I don't understand is why this was the totality of your vocalized explanation as to 5cvm's claim. It's... far from helpful, to put it lightly.
·I like Ecto's post 104. Suave's 109 doesn't do much to impress me.
·I like Phantom's 110. Would like to see Huck's response.
·Would love to have 5cvm response to 105 and 110. I'm also curious as to what extensive professed insight as to players' alignment 5cvm has apparently gleaned. Something other than names would be nice (hint: explanations!)."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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Huck: It doesn't look like you originally voted for 5cvm because he was doing some sort of gambit, but now that's the original reason you are ascribing to your vote. Is that true/false? If false, why did you think it was a gambit at that point in time?"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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raider: Are you referring to Nacho or 5cvm with the last line of 135?"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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raider8169 wrote:Got my mass prod, will post moresoon either today ortomorrow. Holidays and all..."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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Ugh. I was hoping to come away from my reread with something more substantial.
My issue with the 5cvm wagon is that what he did was the antithesis of scum-play: he did something incredibly stupid that in no way whatsoever would convince a town that he was telling the truth. No sane town is going to believe that a pro-town role could determine a scum without any night action and based off of pure flavor without any outside input. It was a doomed gambit from the start - irrespective of its town/scum origins. It's really hard for me to wrap my mind around a scum that would play that stupid/gutsy within the first few pages of the game.
You're right. The question posed to you was what you thought of 5cvm. But it was you who then pointed to the fact that you were voting him, and then said gambits were scummy. You were the one who was equating your original vote with 5cvm pulling a gambit - neither Nacho nor Phantom made that connection for you.HackerHuck wrote:The question asked was what I thought of 5cvm, not why did I vote for him originally.
At the time of my vote, I felt that he was just screwing around and not at all serious. I was getting tired of the game playing. When he admitted to the gambit, that just affirmed what I was thinking.
That said, what exactly were you "thinking" that his gambit reveal confirmed?
Also, what do you think of raider/kiku?"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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I've been batting this around for the past couple of days, and I'm going to go ahead andvote: 5cvm. The last time I successfully and vocally opposed a "policy" lynch against abundantly stupid play concluded with me helping to prevent an otherwise popular scumlynch which was one of the final nails in the coffin for the town.
Here's to hoping that I learned my lesson about kneejerk reactions to stupid play.
If 5cvm was willing to be a bit more explanatory about his actions, rather than his piecemeal responses to the myriad of questions pertaining as to the whys and hows of his actions, I think I would be more prone to believe he's just dumbtown. This, however, has not been the case. His evasive post-"gambit"-reveal attitude is much more scum than town."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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For what it's worth, I'm getting and have been getting exceptionally strong scum vibes off of raider. It's a feeling I've had for quite some time, but 233 sort of clinches the deal.
233 is "poor me, walls o' text just confuse my poor townie brain!" Bleck. I've played with him before. He's not incompetent or impotent - which is the mirage he's trying to build for himself.
pre-post edit: Just saw Huck's 237. I felt obligated to comment on raider's actions/attitude before seeing Huck's request for comment. Mutual, independent suspicion is comforting."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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...Really?MrSuave wrote:le gasp! pressure!"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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I believe I am voting 5cvm.Budja wrote:
No replacement yet.
Sorry, fixed"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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This is what I intended to post right after my 272. For some reason my internet broke down. (It's working now.)
With that, I stand by my reasons for voting 5cvm. I think Suave's actions in this game mimic 5cvm's, incidentally, but don't see any more reason to vote for Suave than 5cvm at the moment. I am not opposed to either of their lynches, nor a potential kiku/raider wagon, for that matter.
I'll see what I can compile in terms of my kiku/raider suspicions for the following day so we can hit the ground running. I'm not looking to dissuade a 5cvm or Suave lynch at this point in time."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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I would prefer a deadline extension. A fresh set of eyes on the game is always welcomed."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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I would like to apologize for my absence. My workload is immense and all that. While I have been keeping tabs of the game, I just have not been able to do my in-depth reads as I would like.
Suave's insistence on not actually contributing, regardless of the numerous chances that have been extended to him, makes him either a crappy town or a scum who doesn't know how to properly wiggle his way out of the spotlight. Either way, I'm completely behind his lynch as his removal from the game in either scenario is ultimately a good (or great, if the latter is true) for the town in the long run. I'm withholding my vote at the moment purely because I'm hoping I can actually put forth some working material before we shift into the night phase.
Since our deadline is Friday, I'll be sure to throw a vote his way come Thursday - hopefully right after laying out some worthwhile reading material."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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I found the scum vibe of kiku considerably less in my reread. I also don't think her hammer was out of line and find her post 351 something that looks like reasoning I would use if I were in her shoes.
I don't care much for Gerhard. He started off incredibly rocky, slipped below the radar for a while and then came back not too terribly much better than when he left.
Still happy with a Suave lynch.
raider still strikes me as scummy. Here's why:
So, yeah. I'm happy with pursuing a raider vote tomorrow."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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I am comfortable withvote: Raider."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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Please explain this.raider8169 wrote:I like where the pressure on me is going as it gives me insight into some people going for the "easy kill." Right now its too early for to tell but in due course it will happen."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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post 233 wrote:Ok, I have had a hard time reading most of this thread. People are posting walls of text and going off on there own little tangents.Either way I am supporting of a 5cvm lynch. I think he is at L-1 and the deadline is in a week or so. I would like to see a post from him in the meantime listing who he thinks is scum and whatnot but I think he gave up on this game instead of trying to fight his way out.post 365 wrote:4. The persona I am using doesnt fit the player? Its almost like you know my meta from 6 months ago.Though if you did it properly you would also know that I have different playstyles depending on the type of gameand the mood I am in when the game starts. I have fun with metas and it people that rely on metas to find scum get screwed and end up screwing the rest of the townies.This is by no means my first game and I do know what I am doing.I find this to be fun and how I want to play the game. If it gets my lynched then so be it. I tend to suck in endgame anyways.post 382 wrote:If you must know, at the moment no one really sticks out to me.I like where the pressure on me is going as it gives me insight into some people going for the "easy kill." Right now its too early for to tell but in due course it will happen.
So, to recap:post 384 wrote:Easy kill would be the people that join a bandwagon and say nothing other then agree and vote. Scum looking just to have someone killed and looking for the easiest target to add their votes too.
Raider said he was confused and unable to read the thread because of all the conversation going on. He later suggests that this is his play style for certain types of games. He emphasizes that this is not his first game and that he knows what he's doing. Furthermore, he is doing this on purpose because it brings attention onto him which is apparently either A) the only time he pays attention to when scum do nothing but agree and vote or B) the only time scum do nothing but agree and vote.
Awesome!Did you catch all of that?
So, it's not his first game and he knows what he's doing. Check.
It's not his first game and he knows what he's doing, which means he is unable to follow multiple threads of intense conversation. Check.
His inability to follow multiple threads of intense conversation is merely a specific play style that is tied to a specific type of game. Check.
This specific play style that is tied to a specific type of game is meant to draw suspicion and attention to himself. Check.
It is when (what would presumably be unnecessary and misplaced) suspicion and attention is drawn to him that raider catches scum because they cannot help but say nothing other than agreeing and voting. Check.
All of this begs the questions:
In what type of game would it benefit a player to come across as befuddled and confused at intense conversation? (Hint: Not a pro-town player.)
In what loopy alternate reality is it a remotely valid pro-town tactic to mislead the town into suspecting you because when the town suspects you (and only you!) scum become stupid and easy to spot? (Hint: It doesn't exist.)
Raider's hodgepodge of excuses for his behavior doesn't hold up to any type of scrutiny."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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Didn't see that the day had started. Reading through the thread now."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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Based purely off of Ecto/Wolf's actions, I'm leaning towards Macavity, peanut or Pulindar being the scum partner(s). I'm leaning towards Nacho and Slaxx being not-scum (though not necessarily not anti-town since people seem to be warming to the idea of a SK).
On that note, I'm finding the assumptions going along with night action/role speculation to be weirdly self-convinced of their truthfulness."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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Nothing more than what's been suggested. Any of them are possibilities, I'm just not convinced on any one scenario. The fact that SK is the most popular idea may in and of itself indicate a SK amongst us. This isn't due to majority rule but because the player would that role would be prone to making assumptions and agreeing with assumptions that involve a SK in the setup. I leaning towards this way of thought because I don't see why people are convinced that there's a SK lurking about rather than someone has a "paranoid townie" trait or that maybe there was a backup vig?Macavity wrote:Do you have any opinion on the 2 kills last night?
I don't know a think about the show (I thought this theme was based off of the book /fail), but is there an appropriately corresponding character form the show to fit any of those roles?
It's GreenSlaxx wrote:Green Canyons lack of posting worries me too, but his posts have been way more contributional (that a word?) and have made pretty solid claims.Crayons. I'm waiting for peanut's response."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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It's like the perfect SK role claim.
Anyways, peanut. Let's assume you're town. Who are the bad guys?"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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This doesn't make any sense. Allegedly wolf attempted to kill you last night and he was the one that ended up dead. In terms of how you have presented your role, you simply cannot be night killed as anybody who targets you during a night for any reason whatsoever is preemptively killed.peanutman wrote:It seems like you might be a flustered scum who doesn't like having an unkillable* confirmed townie around.
*Rather, if killed, I bring down a scum with me.
If you were simply going to "bring down a scum with <you>," then both you and wolf would be dead right now."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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I'm keeping up but I want to digest a few things properly before making a few more comments. I have been working 60+ hours these past few weeks but I should actually have this weekend off (an oasis amidst the storm). Fingers crossed - but, if not, I'll still make a point of posting when my brain isn't in a constant fog.
I don't want to be replaced. Just bare with me."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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I agree that peanut is obviously the SK, but the real question for me is whether or not to leave him around. We can do mental 11th dimensional chess all day long (as to: whether SK will target scum/town, whether scum will target SK/town, when would be best to lynch SK, etc), but at the end of the day it's my goal - and all other town members - to rid the town ofall threats.
And a threat that's staring us in the face shouldn't be passed up, especially when there's too many uncontrollable variables at play. Lynching SK won't doom the town this night and leaving him alive takes what control we, the town, have over the situation. I'm not going to trust the scum to do what's best for the town even if it may be in their eventual interest. Furthermore, the SK has already done the best he could do for us: kill a scumbag. He's playing for himself - if he decides targeting someone he finds obvtown will keep him alive just a bit longer, he'll do it.
So,vote: peanut. I'm leaning towards ML being a second scumbag."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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I'm curious how asking the question in this format is more useful than asking for someone to make the case that peanut is a SK. Furthermore, you're asking someone to prove a negative. Walking dangerously close to the whole asking someone to prove a negative.MacavityLock wrote:Still, I'm not convinced that peanut is SK. Can anyone make a case why peanutisn'ta PGO?
Because of wolf's attitude towards you (distancing), your predecessor's notable "say something and then vanish" act plus some of your own actions which I recall as being suspicious the last time I did a post-by-post read of you. Which I will actually voice in more definite terms when I have the time to reread/post at length.MacavityLock wrote:
Why?Green Crayons wrote:I'm leaning towards ML being a second scumbag.
I would rather definitely extinguish a whole kill group (SK) rather than cripple one and leave two anti-town groups alive. That said, I would like to lynch the most definite anti-town around, so if someone looks more anti-town than peanut in the meanwhile, I would be up for their neck in a noose.Pulindar wrote:@ Green Crayons
I see what you're saying, and I'm not usually a fan of randomness, or chance, but I'd really rather go after a scum today. If we can't find anyone who we're sure are scum then I'm willing to vote for Peanut, but I think we have time and so I'm going to wait."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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Why?MacavityLock wrote:I think that we can all agree that peanut is unlikely to be maf."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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The thread is 128 pages in Word. I'm going to print out at work tomorrow and review."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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And seeing the deadline is in five days from now, I will make a point of writing my thoughts tomorrow."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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Did I say 128? Wrong side of the 5 on the number pad. It was 178 pages printed out.
At any rate, I'm done reading/highlighting/tabbing the thread. I won't be home from work until 9.30 tonight and then there will be Lost to watch. Actually organizing, rereading and electronically transcribing my notes/points will probably take a few hours, so expect a really late post.
unvote. I'll see which of my main suspicions I'll hound after I post my thoughts in their entirety."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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Green Crayons Jack of All Trades
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"When you hit scum, you analyze the actions around the bandwagons." -kikuchiyo
"Ain't that the goddamn truth." -Me
Alright, so let me start by summarizing my own play for this game:
Standoffish in D1 --> Self-Assured w/Raider in D2 --> Loss of Self-Confidence in D3; Lack of Attention with Real-Life Work.
In essence, pretty shitty. Especially throughout the entirety of D3. I haven't been alone in my poor play, however. Mr. Suave was an epic town fail D1. I think raider's play was always pretty poor as well - pretty much on par with my own. I honestly think we were the worst players all game - thus far - for various and sundry reasons; hopefully, my stint in this category will end here. Let me start this review with our list of living:
The Living:
Gerhard Krause
Green Crayons
Nachomamma8
peanutmanUnity
Pulindarxvart
Slaxx5cvm
MacavityLockPHANTOM
Blue = town; Orange = Not Sure; Red = Scum
I will explain why I categorized each player as they currently stand, excluding myself. I am going to start with the blues, move on to the red and then finish up with the oranges. I have come to these conclusions, by and large, because of howEctomancer/wolframnhartinteracted with various players. Thanks for the Pro-Tip, Kiku.
Please note: I've tried to boil this down to the core parts. I can be verbose and that usually loses people due to bleeding eyes and walls of text. I've tried to make things readable.
Disclaimer: I haven't read anything on Page 22 or beyond. Don't expect anything in there to be included in the below.
Town
Scum
Middle Ground
Ordered from leaning town to leaning anti-town
So...
vote: MacavityLock. I strongly urge people to review the thread and see if they also catch the Ecto/wolf connection to PHANTOM/Macavity.
I'm really up in the air about peanutman. I think his play (and especially his predecessor's play) has been incredibly scummy. His role complicates things; reading up on the TV series Mrs. Utterson was Mr. Hyde's mother. There might be some weird recruitment where if Utterson kills Hyde's partner (through PGO mechanism; or, maybe she just targets people each night and only kills non-Hyde mafia) then she joins scum. Wikipedia makes it seem as if Mrs. Utterson finds and joins her son at the end of the series - which would pit her against the Institute. I really don't know and don't feel comfortable pursuing this line of action when someone more readily identifiable as scum is available for a lynch.
And on to one final matter: In rereading I've becoming curious about how these night actions are playing out. I'm pretty convinced Kiku RBed Gerhard both nights. She was openly vocal in her suspicions of Gerhard and her reactions throughout D2 seem to reflect having targeted Gerhard for at least N1. Therefore, if we have a doctor, whoever they targeted N1 may also have been targeted by scum (since there was only the vig kill in N1) - thus, a stronger inclination that that player targeted is not-scum.
And that's all I have for the time being."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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You're shifting the issue that I pointed out. Scummy. The problem with Post 110 is that PHANTOM takes issue not with the fact that 5cvm "created/built" or "forced" a bandwagon, but that PHANTOM specifically says that bandwagoning without prior knowledge of who is and isn't town is scummy.MacavityLock wrote:I do think that at least in some of your points against him, you're trumping stuff up. Post 110, for example, seems to be Phantom voting 5cvm for creating a bandwagon based on the famed "role info". Phantom uses the word "creating", but there's definitely a difference betweenbuildinga bandwagon (normal) andforcingone (what 5cvm did). Seems a reasonable call out to me.
After 254, he had Post 309, where he did not follow up. Once again trying to misdirect. Scummy.MacavityLock wrote:And after 254, he abandoned the game, so of course he failed to produce a follow-up. Is flaking scummy?
wolframnhart "cracked down" on you in 373 which prompted your 376. His followup in 377 bookends a strained back-and-forth. It implicates you because when we catch scum we look at how they interacted with other players because it can tip us off as to other scumbags. The fact that you already voiced this tactic in Post 519 - not even a whole page ago - but are now failing to see how it is helpful in discerning wolf's scummates is telling. Scummy.MacavityLock wrote:I called out a lot of people for the policy lynch stuff. WNH responded to it first. Not sure how that implicates me.
Bolded portion is a great Ad Hom. Scummy. You're trying to excuse the bad logic by discrediting the person bringing the accusations. The fact that I didn't catch scummy logic in my first read of the situation has no bearing on the validity of that scummy logic.MacavityLock wrote:Why are they bad reasons?If you think so, why didn't you point them out at the time?
Anyways, here are why your suspicions against GK in 376 were bad:
1)You criticize GK for "answering" for Nacho, when he was merely stating his opinion on the matter when, IIRC, lots of people were stating their opinions on the matter. Furthermore, you state that GK is somehow protecting Nacho by tipping Nacho off as to what GK would consider scummy. GK's basis of suspicions aren't the standard for the town; therefore, what he finds to be suspicious is not what anyone else will or will not find suspicious. This whole Nacho protection line is a big reach.
2)You criticize GK for his wording but it's clear that he's intent on lynching Suave due to his anti-town play - which may include Suave just being a really bad townie. You take a big leap with suggesting that GK "knew" that Suave was town.
3)You take issue with the fact that GK was making notations as to what reasons behind the Suave wagon xvart was and was not supporting. ... Such a non-issue (it's good to know what reasons people ascribe to when they hop on a wagon) and you're blowing out a lot of hot air to look like you're actually making a good point. You're not.
4)Finally, you focus on GK for asking someone to end the day before I put in my two cents, ignoring the fact that Kiku actually did the hammer (she was town, by the way) and other people such as Hacker (he was town, by the way) supported her doing the very thing you're criticizing GK for supporting. Your fixation on only a single player who merely supported a hammer at that point in time while ignoring other players who voiced the same sentiments and the actual player who performed the hammer is what is so telling.
In addition to point 4 immediately above, my inability to piece together my thoughts in a reasonable amount of time was nobody's responsibility but my own.MacavityLock wrote:He's specifically asking people to end the day, when you had suggested that you wanted to put some analysis in. I read that as him being afraid of what your analysis might show.
Okay, scumbag. The "obvious" isn't that GK was misinterpreting "No Result" as being blocked even though there was a dead roleblocker, the obvious is that "No Result" means that GK was unable to get a result. Which means there was no result, so alignment cannot be discerned. Keep on trying to stretch that paper thin logic to try to cover your butt, but it doesn't fly. Scummy.MacavityLock wrote:Let's assume for the moment that Gerhard is cop. He got a No Result on kiku, who has flipped town. He got a No Result on me, and I know I'm town. I wanted to be sure he wasn't missing the obvious.
Post 461 GK notes that he attempted to investigate you because of the back and forth from D2. GK obviously views you as suspicious, you see this as a threat that needs to be slandered and, if possible, lynched. Because you're scum.MacavityLock wrote:"Has been vocal about his suspicions of me" is really disingenuous. The timeline is a bit muddled here because I'm a replacement, but I've been suspicious of Gerhard since I've entered the game, and as far as I remember he wasn't suspicious of Phantom. And other than his claimed investigation of me, where has he said that he's suspicious of me? Like even once? He's just called me and my case stupid and gotten defensive.
Pulindar: Per the role conversation, Callendar was scum because she supported Hyde. Hyde is scum, he's definitely in the game - it says so directly in VT win condition. Town is the Institute. Scum could be anyone outside of the Institute or working against the Institute. The reason why I agree with your speculation that peanut might have some weird mechanic is because Mrs. Utterson - Institute connections aside - is Hyde's mom and met up with him at the end of the show. That would put her definitely in Hyde's camp (or at least third party), the Institute be damned."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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Excessive mod force! I'm calling the ACLU of mafia games. (Pick on GK and Slaxx if you want to get players who aren't contributing. )Budja wrote:Prodding GC.
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I did a quick skim of my own posts. I acted in a similar manner towards xvart (town), Hacker Huck (town), Phantom (who I'm now calling scum) and Nacho (who I'm now calling town). Your observation would be more telling if it wasn't how I was acting towards just about everyone.peanut wrote:And that is it. In about 20 pages, they both mentioned each other only 4 times, and never in an attempt to draw attention to the other.
Oh, yeah. Your earlier issues: When I said "Let's assume you're town, who are the scumbags" (paraphrasing this post), I wanted to know your opinion as to who you thought was scummy in the event that you are actually town. The fact that you thought I was suggesting you automatically knew for a 100% fact who scum was is a bit suspicious. That would be an incredibly stupid conclusion for me to make. I may be many things, but I certainly am not stupid.peanut wrote:So, I am still comfortable with my vote on Green Crayons.FreudianScumslip on your behalf? The fact that you actually restate that I somehow think that you magically know who the scum are is really ridiculous.
Additionally, your attacking me in Post 518 for asking another player (who I just so happen to believe is scummy) his reasoning for their perception is duly noted.
peanut, your vote is a trumped up OMGUS. Feel free to continue to masquerade it as something more, it'll only add more fuel to the fire of my suspicions that you're not aligned with the Institute.
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Nacho, ML, GK = what are your opinions on Slaxx?
(ML, I'll respond to your points when I have more time; I'm willing to let the back and forth stand on its own merits for the time being.)"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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He's taken my original points against you to what he believes to be their logical conclusion. If I am to assume my points against you to be valid and you to be scum then the only suspicious aspect of his behavior is that he's buddying up with me to distance himself with you. If I am to assume that I am incorrect and my points against you are worthless and you are town then the only suspicious aspect of his behavior is that he's buddying up with me to use my incorrect suspicions to provide a cover for his attack on town.MacavityLock wrote:Has any of the recent back and forth changed your opinion of Nacho?
His action here seems to mimic his behavior earlier in the game when he took Ecto's arguments against GK and ran with them while Ecto sort of held back. The parallel between the two situations is actually kind of eerie - and I don't like the fact that I'm in the same "role" as Ecto (my "holding back" isn't voluntary, I'll note, and I at least provided follow up for my legitimate criticisms so it really isn't as egregious as Ecto's). The fact that I myself know that Ecto and I are not of the same alignment does little to allay suspicions for everyone else, but this just seems to be how Nacho plays. You can assume he's being the attack dog for scum or he just latches on to suspicions/arguments he agrees with - take your pick. Personally, I don't believe it indicates an inherent scum vibe.
Slaxx: Do you agree with your predecessor's claim in Post 138 that, " I clarified unambiguously that nachomamma was not mentioned in my role PM and that I think he's town. ... Although, if it ever comes time for me to claim,you will see that my randomgambitclaim was inspired by my real role. "
Mod: Would it be selfish ofmethe town to request an extension of some sort? I know that we had an extra long day due to absences that was squandered during that extra time, but... Uh. Please? I think the pick up in activity is an indicator that we will actually use it."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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This question makes an underlying assumption in order to give the suspicions pertaining to that scenario any weight: That Nacho's arguments are obviously wrong and scummy. The past two pages or so represent why you think his arguments are wrong - so I see no need for you to go into that any further - but you have not qualified how they are scummy.MacavityLock wrote:So, you don't think the fact that his arguments are so obviously wrong and scummy is a reason to think that the following might be more likely?
Simply being wrong doesn't make a player scummy. Simply being wrong about you - if we are to assume you are town - doesn't make a player scummy, either. Please explain how his incorrect arguments are scummy and we should, therefore, view him with suspicion.
I want Slaxx to answer my question."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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Goodness me. Even on my days off I still wake up no later than 7. I'm broken.
I'll just respond to 542 in it's entirety since it's what I originally promised.Macavity wrote:There are bunch of things I want you to respond to from my 542.
That took longer than expected. I was going to make some additional comments about the Nacho/Macavity exchange, but I'll hold off for now.
Slaxx - how do you feel about Nacho? Macavity?
Also, GK, pulindar - where are you two? Where should be focusing our attention?"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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That doesn't actually answer my question. 5cvm already said that nobody was mentioned in the role PM. I'm curious if your "real role" could inspire 5cvm's "randomgambitclaim." Here's a recap of what I asked:Slaxx wrote:Nobody was mentioned in my role PM.
I can't Follow 5cvm's logic as to why he would say that.Green Crayons wrote:Slaxx: Do you agree with your predecessor's claim in Post 138 that, " I clarified unambiguously that nachomamma was not mentioned in my role PM and that I think he's town. ... Although, if it ever comes time for me to claim,you will see that my randomgambitclaim was inspired by my real role. "
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I'm waiting to see some more third party opinions (specifically, that of GK and pulindar) regarding my suspicions of you as well as the Nacho and you back and forth so I can look at these situations with a fresh set of eyes, as it were.MacavityLock wrote:GC, no comment on...?
I do agree that Nacho's accusations towards you were really pretty much shit in the beginning and have done little to improve. This doesn't bode well for how I feel about the standing of my own suspicions towards you.
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I'm curious people's top three suspects. Maybe we can find some common ground and build a consensus from there. Any takers?"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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As far as I can tell, the focus of a Gerhard lynch was pretty much all but over. Therefore, if your claim is true, then 1 heavily indicates that either ML or Nacho is your partner (those two having the most critical attention on them at the moment) or, to a lesser extent, peanut or myself (the other two players with critical attention focused on them, just to as great of an extent). There was no real threat of a GK-lynch, so forcing the town's hand into lynching GK suggests that your partner was on the verge of being outed.
Secondly, scum aren't burdened by a lurker if that lurkerscum is able to get by without being lynched. Claiming scum out of the blue is actual antithetical to any player's win condition. Your play here is exceptionally poor regardless of your alignment.
GK - if you're really scum and not just a town tired of playing and so are therefore screwing us over - what were your real night targets?"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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Because only assholes attempt to get themselves lynched in a mafia game - jesters are a crap role that are hardly used and I consider them to always be a red herring. Mods who don't want to make a crap setup don't include jesters. As it stands, I'm just trying to figure out what kind of asshole you are: A lazy town who just wants himself removed from the game or a scum who just doesn't care.
The comical third option is that you aren't an asshole at all - nor are you a jester; instead, you have some sort of ability that is jump-started by your lynch. If you were town you would have already mentioned it instead of lying, so if this is the case you must be of an anti-town role. The most immediate speculation in this possible scenario that comes to me is a lynch immunity ability. This would waste a town's lynch for a single day and give scum another free town kill."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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Perhaps. I'm up for lynching him, at any rate. Does anyone have any suggestions as to lynch order just in case there is a kill command on the hammer? (My vote goes to peanut.)"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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unvote, by the by. The other option might be either Nacho or ML hammering, since both are convinced the other is scum and we can just lynch the non-hammer if the hammer is town - assuming there is some sort of kill switch."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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You have ignored all the points I have made against you and you have ignored my responses to your bogus claims against my play. Please attempt to do something more constructive than - for example - "omg GC wanted me to read minds! Scum!" and then when I respond about how wonky and inaccurate the logic is behind your accusations you just move on to another crazy fingerpointing session.peanutman wrote:words
No. I should explain my thought process more.Nacho wrote:False dilemma, Crayons >.>
I still stand by my original suspicions of ML, but your attacks on MLhavebeen incredibly scummy. I'm slowly coming around to the notion that one of you is scum - you both have done some pretty scummy things independent of one another that I believe may be indicative of anti-town alignment. However, I have to couple with this with the the fact that I am fairly certain that if one of you is scum then the other is not just because I don't think that two scum would drag themselves into the limelight and get into a big old argument this late into the game so that the attention focuses solely on them (especially considering that attention could have been redirected elsewhere).
Furthermore and separate from the above, I'm also warming to the notion that if GK flips scum one of you two most definitely is scum (also assuming there is no "trigger" ability in his lynch that would overrule his claim that his lynch would mask the attention of his scummate).
So, I'm looking at it like this: ML and Nacho have both acted in a scum-like fashion. However, they are not acting as if they are on the same scum team. If one flips town that does not have any bearing on if the other is town or scum (therefore: my suspicions of that other player being scum are still valid). If one flips scum that does affect how I view the other player because I do not believe that they are acting as if they are on the same team.
This would be a false dilemma if I did not allow for another possibility: That neither of you are town. However, I have already considered this possibility and I'm convinced this is not the case (for reasons previously stated/agreed with/summarized in the past 3-5 pages). Therefore, what I faceisa dichotomy, but it is not false because there is plenty of information in-thread that supports the notion that one of you are scum."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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tl;dr: Not all dichotomies are false. This one isn't - and you, Nacho, specifically, attempting to paint it as such is a bit of irony seeing as how you are espousing the situation that you are town and Macavity is scum (thus your position for the past four pages has been that the dichotomy I just espoused is true)."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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Yes, they have be atrocious. Just based off of recollection of my scanning of the Nacho-Macavity back and forth I recall maybe two points you made against him that were legitimate (and not just really transparent and suspicious), but even those were made after your shifted your rhetoric against Macavity after he challenged you on your points.Nachomamma8 wrote:Why? Hasn't the way you view MacavityLock been changed based on his reactions to my attacks on him?
It's not something you need to be "pretty sure" about. My player list read from a few pages back still exists. "Independent from one another" means I find that you two have done scummy things that are not dependent upon the other being scummy.Nachomamma8 wrote:Hmm... I'm pretty sure you had a town read on me before I began attacking MacavityLock.
Warming to the idea, Nacho. Not convinced. As the situation stands there isn't going to be a light bulb, epiphany moment. Things are what they are - you either believe Gerhard (for whatever reason) or you don't (for whatever reason) on any of his claims. I'm mulling over the possibilities.Nachomamma8 wrote:Alright, so what makes you believe that GK is trying to save his partner, as opposed to him just getting bored of the game and claiming? Does this mean you believe Slaxx is town?
Full quoting this because you're inaccurately forcing a conclusion to my statement. As far as I am concerned, you have both acted in a scum-like manner. This scenario produces the following conclusion: This in and of itself means that regardless of what one of you flips (either scum or town), then my suspicions for the other player are still in effect.Nachomamma8 wrote:
This is inconsistent with the rest of your posting. You said before that you're coming around to believing that one of us have to be scum, so if one of us flips town, wouldn't that make you more likely to believe that the other is scum?Green Crayons wrote: If one flips town that does not have any bearing on if the other is town or scum (therefore: my suspicions of that other player being scum are still valid).
However, I am adding an additional layer to the situation - that I do not believe you two to be on the same scum team. This additional factor to the scenario necessitates that the conclusion be modified. The modified conclusion: If one of you flips town it (still) does not affect my suspicions of the other; however, if one of you flips scum it does affect my suspicions of the other (that they are not scum).
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If Gerhard's reason for getting himself lynched isn't that he's a complete douche, then I'm speculating that he might have some sort of lynch-triggered ability (such as being able to take the hammer with him). I think we should consider this a potential scenario and act accordingly.MacavityLock wrote:Can you explain? I really don't understand your meaning here.
As a side note: it may be that he has the ability to take any one player who voted him out with him, so this planning would be moot; however, the possible number of scenarios that we cannot verify is pretty so it's impossible to predict/prepare for them all. Ultimately, this may just be more trouble than it's worth.
MacavityLock wrote:GC, I understand your point on the false/not false dilemma. However, one problem I have here is that this is based solely on your reads. From your perspective, I see it. But if someone doesn't agree with your case on me or my case on Nacho, to them it will absolutely be a false dilemma. In 605, you're acting as if me vs Nacho is true for the whole town. Response?
I bolded the portions that relate to why someone would mistakenly label my dichotomy a false dilemma. I have already explained that I have considered, assessed and dismissed the potential for both of you being town (see response to Nacho above in this very post for even more explanation). Furthermore, I have explained why I believe that, while one of you are scum (for independent reasons), I do not believe that both of you can be scum. Therefore, my suggestion is a dichotomy - but, to me, not an incorrect one.Wikipedia: False Dilemma wrote:The logical fallacy of false dilemma (also called false dichotomy, the either-or fallacy)involves a situation in which only two alternatives are considered, when in fact there are other options. Closely related arefailing to consider a range of optionsand the tendency to think in extremes, called black-and-white thinking. Strictly speaking, the prefix "di" in "dilemma" means "two".When a list of more than two choices is offered, but there are other choices not mentioned, then the fallacy is called the fallacy of false choice, or the fallacy of exhaustive hypotheses.
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When two alternatives are presented, they are often, though not always, two extreme points on some spectrum of possibilities. This can lend credence to the larger argument by giving the impression that the options are mutually exclusive, even though they need not be. Furthermore,the options are typically presented as being collectively exhaustive, in which case the fallacy can be overcome, or at least weakened, by considering other possibilities, or perhaps by considering a whole spectrum of possibilities, as in fuzzy logic.
Now, people are free to disagree with any of the points along my reasoning path (1. my suspicions of ML; 2. my suspicions of Nacho; 3. my reasons why ML and Nacho cannot be on the same scum team), but if they do then they just disagree with me and think I am incorrect with the premises of my argument. That does not inherently make my dichotomy a logical fallacy - which, invoking "false dilemma," insinuates (for it to be a logical fallacy the logical form of my argument would need to be invalid) - it just means they view my argument as unsound."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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- Posts: 7612
- Joined: September 21, 2002
- Location: Richmond, VA
I misread what you originally wrote (I thought it was along the lines of "Hasn't the way you view me changed based on my attacks on him.") To correctly answer your questions: No. Any change in my perception of Macavity is due to his responses to my accusations. Any change in my perception of you, Nacho, is due to your behavior towards Macavity.Green Crayons wrote:
Yes, they have be atrocious. Just based off of recollection of my scanning of the Nacho-Macavity back and forth I recall maybe two points you made against him that were legitimate (and not just really transparent and suspicious), but even those were made after your shifted your rhetoric against Macavity after he challenged you on your points.Nachomamma8 wrote:Why? Hasn't the way you view MacavityLock been changed based on his reactions to my attacks on him?"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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Green Crayons Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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- Joined: September 21, 2002
- Location: Richmond, VA
The order by which we vote for Gerhard's lynch, since I'm speculating that GK might have a lynch-triggered ability. The suggestion of peanut being the hammer is because if Gerhard has a "kill the hammer on my lynch" ability, I would want it to be peanut.MacavityLock wrote:Yes, I understand that. I don't understand what you mean by "lynch order" and choosing peanut.
Yes, I am suggesting that the town act in the manner I believe is true. Do you find it so unbelievable that a player would want the town to act in the manner they believe to be the right way to go about catching scum? I don't understand the basis of your questioning. I want the rest of the town to see and understand my arguments and then agree with them.MacavityLock wrote:Right. I understand why you don't think it's a false dilemma, and I'm fine with that. But in 605, you are suggesting that the town acts as if it's a true dilemma.
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And I don't like how you're giving credence to peanut's asinine commentary. Nacho's "either ML or GC because of process of elimination" and my "both ML and Nacho look suspicious because of x, y and z reasons but aren't on the same scum team" is far from being one in the same.Pulindar wrote:This isthe same thing that Nacho did between GC and ML. I don't like how they're ripping each other off."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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Green Crayons Jack of All Trades
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- Joined: September 21, 2002
- Location: Richmond, VA
vote: Gerhard. Currently on my hour break between my Tuesday workday and Wednesday work day (yes it is 5am, why do you ask?) - so I won't be reading this thread again until Friday. Deadline on Saturday so any last minute changes I will catch but I'm happy with a Gerhard lynch."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).-
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Green Crayons Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 7612
- Joined: September 21, 2002
- Location: Richmond, VA
I don't know what the hell Gerhard was thinking. Nice work Macavity, you definitely had me thinking Nacho was potentially scum - though, it was definitely a him or you type of thing and if we didn't waste a lynch on atown claiming scumI think we would have been in a better situation to have taken this as a town win."This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).
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