Mini 889 - Shopping Frenzy (Over)

[don_johnson]

hello. apparently i am voting ddd. i will

unvote

until i find out why.

[don_johnson]

I'm sure you think this post of yours is hunting for scum, but all it really is is OMGUS as stated before.

very town read up until this comment. if you're "sure" that torq thinks his post is actual scumhunting then you must think/know torq to be town. this reads as a genuine scumslip imo.

otherwise, not too much to comment on at the moment. i have three other suspects but feel no need to discuss the particulars at this time. i think torq and ddd are more likely than not both town.

vote: chinaman

i have been thinking this one over quite a bit, but i think it is best to claim my role right off the bat for a number of reasons. i realize there is detriment to it as well, but the idea of having a confirmed townie in lylo is something we should plan for. i know this throws a wrench in the works, but i have never had this role before, nor played with it in a game, and after thinking it through and weighing the pros and cons i have decided to just claim.

bulletproof townie.

discuss.

[don_johnson]

after thinking it through, i think this role is a bit like a miller in that it is a claim which will not likely be believed if elicited under pressure or at a later time in the game, especially if we don't lynch correctly and early giving scum a foothold on town decisions. also, by claiming early i open myself up to vig attempts, weak doctor protects, or cop investigations to prove my alignment and ability. like i said, i think its important that when given an oppurtunity to have a confirmed townie in lylo, we should most certainly do everything in our power to make it happen. main con is giving scum info on who not to target. other con would be if they have some sort of way to get around my ability. i am not revealing any more role info at this time, but i feel this part best to be out in the open.

if you read my town games you will see that i am almost always lynched. in this game, that could be disastrous.

[don_johnson]

It could also be that Chinaman sees him as scum, and therefore he sees it as a poor attempt at faking scumhunting.
Personally, I don't have a scum / town read on him, so in this case

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

i am not.

What are other typical roles that have NK immunity?

a) i deliberately phrased my role claim to avoid being placed into the "nk immune" category. i may simply have any number of bulletproof vests. my role may also have other facets. i may, in fact, have a static nk immune ability. clarifying this only helps scum so i would rather stew in ambiguity until necessary.

b) to answer the question excluding the word "other": i have seen godfather's and serial killers carry nk immune traits. i do not believe that either of those roles can be considered to "typically" carry nk immunity, however. I have never had an nk immune gf role, and the one serial killer role i had was not nk immune. i don't know of "town roles" other than "bulletproof townie", "townie with bulletproof vest" etc.

part of why i'm claiming is to put it out in the open early and give town more choices in how to deal with it, rather than risk claiming later in the game with less credibility under pressure and losing a key town advantage.

Don, while I see your point of China's scum slip, I could use a little more. Also, I don't like how you say you have other suspects but don't mention them.

holding off on my list until i get more reactions. only one of my other suspects has posted since my claim.

i don't have more regarding chinaman. i read his post as a "genuine" scumslip. i believe it a lynchable offense on day 1 regardless of a "townie" read.

[don_johnson]

i agree here with julien.

i will write up summaries of my other three suspects asap, but josh was on the list. his knee jerk reacion of calling for the lynch of a player claiming "nk immune" or "bulletproof" is anti-town at best. generally, town has the ability to only kill during the daytime, i.e. lynch. so town really has nothing to fear from an nk immune role. the only players who would seek to rid themselves of nk immune players would be scum or serialkiller. town can lynch, investigate, track, roleblock, etc. depending on the set-up.

i would like to hear from chinaman in response to his "slip", but josh lymans reaction has me happy lynching them today as well.

my other three suspects were simo, scott brosius, and muh. of those three, brosius and muh have since moved back towards null, and simo has actually accumulated town points. i will have summaries up later, but i think josh lyman should be pressed a bit more here.

[don_johnson]

The only thing I would like clarified is why you aren't giving Chinaman the benefit of doubt. Meaning, if you agree with most of what he says why does one comment sway your opinion on the matter?

is this for me? if so, i would reiterate my belief that the slip seems "genuine" enough for me to not extend benefit of the doubt on day 1. town players look scummy, scummy players look town, day 1 is mountains of wifom. as it stands now:

We have three days until deadline, we need to get moving so we have time for all of the usual end of day activities.

this is extremely relevant, and i will

unvote chinaman, vote: josh lyman

chinaman is absent and we need to get moving. i have more than enough on josh to lynch and i think the wagon is much more attainable. i will support muh as a deadline policy lynch, but would rather one of china/josh lyman go first.

[don_johnson]

^^ thoroughly unimpressed with this so close to deadline.

liam: what is the case on jvw? if its already posted just give me a post number. i find their pick up on josh lyman's behavior to be townish so i would like something to compare it to.

[don_johnson]

liam: the case is weak. join the josh lyman wagon. its stronger.

[don_johnson]

josh lyman's iso is not all that helpful imo. i am thinking torquez is most likely town based on that interaction, not sure about muh. brosius certainly needs to post, but one thing that irked me yesterday was Liam's hop onto the wagon. i will have to go back and reread the end of the day.

muh: it was not a great lynch. in fact, it was very close to a no lynch and the low activity killed information. hopefully there is something we can salvage.

[don_johnson]

I'll catch up with the game on Day 2, for now we need to lynch

unvote, vote: josh lyman

Josh, if you're a power role claim now, it might not be too late.

reading this again, i will retract the earlier statement. this wagon jump seems to absolve yourself of any real responsibility and would have been much more suspicious with a town flip. that's what irked me initially, the lack of real stance. i guess it could still read as scum/scum communication "hey buddy, claim a power role to stop the wagon," but that might be reaching. i'll need a bit of reread.

mr. rampage: lyman's response to my claim was what set off my scumdar so i think reading through that section might be helpful.

[don_johnson]

hmmmm,

scum slip, lack of response, end of day lurking.

vote: chinaman

we're not going to get anywhere sitting around, holding hands and singing "kumbayah".

[don_johnson]

DJ pointed out a 'slip' in this post. I'm not sure that's what it was, and it felt like DJ was reaching at the time which is what I meant by wasn't great.

yes, and regardless of the "quality" of the slip, you never responded or acknowledged it. You lurked through until deadline nearly costing us a no lynch. sitting on a wagon you're happy with and not checking the thread before deadline is anti-town.

[don_johnson]

Ok, I didn't respond to that 'slip' because it's so retarded I didn't feel the need to respond to it. Seriously, it's a matter of how people speak. Try saying it out loud with a sarcastic tone and you'll see how retarded it is to try and make it out to be something it's not.

Still going to go back and read through.

so then may we characterize your activity near deadline as "active lurking"? if you saw the post but chose not to respond based on its retardedness, then you should have also been aware of the approaching deadline and the pliability of the popular wagons. basically, you are admitting that you "chose" to ignore the deadline.

[don_johnson]

I never responded or acknowledged it because I didn't think it was a slip or worth mentioning. I didn't lurk through til deadline, I shifted my vote when it was clear my preferred lynch wasn't happening and I did it with plenty of time to spare, like I had previously said I would. I think you're confusing me with someone else in the last half of that post.

sorry, liam. that post was directed at chinaman. you didn't lurk, and you didn't need to respond to the slip. i have no issue with you at the current time.

my point here:

i pointed out slip. chinaman never responded, lurked til deadline without giving an opinion on, or joining the lead wagon.

today, when asked, chinaman states, "what slip?", implying he didn't even read my posting. this supports the idea that he was absent from the thread at the end of the day. then he backtracks and states that he

did

, in fact, read the slip post and didn't respond because it was "retarded". this does not suggest someone who was merely absent from the thread, but more someone who was actively lurking. i.e. reading and not responding. now, why would someone "actively lurk" near deadline when votes are needed for the town to lynch. regardless of the coming flip, a no lynch on day 1 is terrible play. townies should do whatever possible to avoid it. real life getting in the way of participation is one thing, but active lurking is decisive play.

i currently like jvm's point on muh. we need more votes on both players.

[don_johnson]

Hey I like me a good welcome.

Guys, let me get your opinion here, which name sounds cooler:

Albert B. RAMPAGE, or julien von wolfe? Hmmmm?

to be honest, julien flows better, but it sounds a bit girlie. so i'd have to go with albert, unless julien gets a sex change.

[don_johnson]

then why not vote? how do you expect the game to progress if you simply don't participate?

[don_johnson]

i think one of china, muh, brosius are definitely scum. i think china's the best lynch. we need some replacements, but we can always just gak one of em to save the mod some time.

[don_johnson]

Back from holidays, folks. Muh's giving me huge scum vibes. I concur with PE's 304. DJ's 305 isn't good; saying that you think that one of three people is scum is hedging your bets quite heftily.

a) please note the smiley in 305.
b) i practically gift-wrapped josh lyman for you. saying that one of three players are scum is good scumhunting when they are all scummy and somewhat connected to confirmed scum. but whatever.

[don_johnson]

I had thought it was pretty obvious that what was earlier thought of as a possible scum-slip from me was clarified thus bringing it up again to try and put doubt in about it again is scummy.

by "clarified", do you mean "not responded too at all"? because you didn't respond to the slip. in fact, you acted like you didn't even know what it was about, and then you backtracked and claimed to have ignored it. very smooth.

ABR: why are

you

voting muh?

[don_johnson]

^^ most poorly timed claim ever. lol!

[don_johnson]

yeah, like people have been unvoting you i think. no real need for the claim. kind of odd claiming the dead guys role, but whatever. can u vote chinaman?

[don_johnson]

my guess would be muh. i find jvm undoubtedly town.

[don_johnson]

and dj's amazing scumhunting prowess.

[don_johnson]

^^ please explain.

[don_johnson]

abr: why ddd?

chinaman: thank you. it was enjoyable to have the violin playing in my head as i read your giant marshmallowy sundae of emotion that was post three hundred and seventy-two. the only time you should self hammer is when you are caught scum. so, by all means...

[don_johnson]

didn't chinaman say something about muh being town? maybe i need to reread, but i don't see why we are not lynching chinaman.

[don_johnson]

no. please lynch chinaman.

pe: sorry to hear it.

[don_johnson]

oh, the irony...

[don_johnson]

ebwop: nevermind. its not ironic. i didn't realize deadline was so close. thanks adel.

[don_johnson]

Who did muh protect?

i think the real question is: why is muh alive?

I'd like an explanation from Adel too.

[don_johnson]

1. he is scum
2. he isn't scum but is mislynch bait.

and which of these two do you think is

more

likely?

[don_johnson]

i haven't been lurking. i am actually posting quite frequently. i also generated the bulk of the case on JoshLyman. mini 701 was actually my first game on site. i didn't lurk at all until the last couple days. in fact, i was quite active the first day i replaced in. also, not sure where you think i was "trying" to draw an investigation in that game. Spyrex called me out as scum rather quickly. the only reason i won is because my scum partner sac'd himself for the doc day one, masons claimed, and there was another scum team who did the rest of the work for me. i endgamed because the remaining member of the other scum team pulled a terrible fakeclaim out of her ass in lylo. even still, one game does not a meta make.

if you don't want to voice your opinion that's fine, but don't go around demanding answers from other players(ABR) when you refuse to answer questions yourself.

i am actually in the process of rereading this game to get a better perspective. i was pretty confident in the china lynch, but its time to reevaluate.

[don_johnson]

vote: ABR

don't be lame.
its
a
game.

[don_johnson]

what benefit does claiming bulletproof and bussing your partner have? its a reach for a scum gambit. especially on day 1 when, if i were scum, i would have little to no idea as to the set up. you fail to realize that by claiming i offered myself up to more than just vig attempts and cop ionvestigation. we could have watcher/tracker, role cop, etc.

i am not linking you to town games. if you want to build a case on me then go ahead and do it. but for shits and giggles:

DDD: do i or do i not often get lynched as town?

btw: bolding things don't make them scummy. you should explain what's scummy about what you're bolding. if you recall, the josh lyman wagon started because of his desire to lynch the "bulletproof" guy. reason being that "bulletproof" is a huge threat to a mafia win condition. if you think i am mafia then you will need evidence. has anyone investigated me? has anyone tracked me? these are questions that are better answered later in the game. right now, there are much more obvious suspects like you and ABR. players who not only avoided the day 1 scum lynch, but who avoided the ENTIRE THREAD near the deadline.

again, i'll be posting some thoughts on the reread when i'm done. interested ona fresh perspective.

welcome, semioldguy.

[don_johnson]

u tell me. u were able to dig up my very first game. why do you need my help to dig up the rest? is there an issue with the fact that you are expecting people to cooperate with you while you refuse to cooperate with others? your eloquence is stunning. [/sarcasm]

[don_johnson]

^^ not only is he using logic, but he's a claimed power role. i have no issue with an ABR lynch. as far as i'm concerned, both he and Adel are prime candidates and neither is helping change my view of them.

[don_johnson]

^^ this is terrible. Adel's next.

someone hammer this home.

[don_johnson]

^^ this is terrible. Adel's next.

someone hammer this home.

What do you mean by these two things? You seem to think Adel's vote is scummy, but you also want someone to hammer?

the logic is terrible. using a mod post to determine your vote is heinous.

also: Adel is scummy regardless of the flip. ABR wants out, a replacement is more work for the mod regardless of alignment. grant the wish. if he's scum, great, if he's not then Adel is 100%.

[don_johnson]

hmmm. good deal.

mass claim or no lynch?

[don_johnson]

we have five. two scum dead. assuming three that leaves

4 town
1 scum

no lynch lets scum take someone out.

3 town
1 scum

+ night action results. makes for better odds. i think its pretty standard mafia theory.

[don_johnson]

this is amusing. i think it should be pretty obvious why i was the least scummiest. as far as i'm concerned jvw and myself are obvtown.

ddd: if we're not no lynching, then what are we doing?

[don_johnson]

i agree. which is exactly why this is amusing to me.

[don_johnson]

that's how it has been explained to me. there are few times when a no lynch benefits town, but it is generally done without any discussion and certainly not after a massclaim. i'm sure there are threads about it in the discussion forum.

i'm fine with massclaim.

[don_johnson]

wiki it. its "standardness" is debatable. it is a viable strategy, however, and if it were to be used, this is exactly the type of situation where it would be most beneficial. that is assuming three scum, however. i am confident in that number.

[don_johnson]

i don't keep a running catalogue of my games. couldn't honestly tell ya which game it was, but the first time the scenario came up in a game was when it was explained to me. i think it may have been ectomancer who laid it out for me in those terms. if i am mistaken and you think it is a bad idea you could just explain why. not sure why your panties are in a bunch. five alive, two scum dead, mass claim and no lynch are both viable and accepted strategies according to my MS experience(the wiki notwithstanding).

if you would like to believe that it never happened that's fine. if you have a point to make regarding that belief, then make it.

[don_johnson]

bulletproof vigilante

1. kill (1-shot)
2. bullet proof vest, bullet proof vest
3. none
4. town
5. call me liam for vig kill
6. same reason as suspicion of josh. fear of nk immune player. only scum fear 'em.
7. ddd

[don_johnson]

adel: i already went. not sure how many times you have participated in a mass claim, but it is usually done with little to no discussion in between the claims. not sure what your rush is, but we need jvw's claim before we get to asking and answering questions. i'm sure you'd like a link to a game where i participated in a mass claim, but you're just going to have to trust me here. i am pretty sold on jvw as town, so i am not worried about them manipulating information, but the possibility exists and if you are town then it should

most certainly

exist from your pov(see ddd).

anyhoo, jvw, hows about that claim?

[don_johnson]

i have already claimed. waiting on jvw.

[don_johnson]

i'll have a response later today, but it seems to me that i have been on the right trail. today should be between ddd and adel. i see no reason to vote ddd.

scott brosius= adel

vote: adel

smart night actions = win for town.

[don_johnson]

alright. a few minutes before i leave for school.

so far, i think we've been spot on. i have been sold on jvwtown since day 1. the way he handled the lyman wagon could only have been bussing at its finest, but is more likely than not a town action. place the "motion detector" claim on top and you have all but confirmed. jvw went last. he could have claimed anything.

scum is between adel, muh, ddd.

adel is most obvious here due to their gameplay and that of their predecessor. also fits the one scum on, one scum off the day 1 scum wagon theory. most likely scum. in regards to their repeated meta requests, i find them irrelevant and distracting. they seem to be implying suspicion of the "nk immune" townie for quite a while, and most of it today is based on the grand ASSUMPTION that i am somehow lieing about my understanding of mafia theory. asking someone to dig through 30+ games to find a conversation that is commonplace in many games and newbie forums is a bit absurd, hence the lack of response. adel also seemed to glaze over the fact that i asked for "mass claim or no lynch?". instead they seem to focus on the no lynch aspect of my request.

muh: questionable night targets. i would have to go back and see the case on him previously. has never been a target of mine but remains a possibility.

ddd: reads town, could be lurking scum. can be confirmed through night actions possibly.

lynching adel leaves few options. a scum flip should win the game. a town flip leaves us with the chance for jvw to watch me, muh to protect jvw. have to go. thoughts?

[don_johnson]

sorry adel. i don't have that in my pm. messaged mod to see why.

unvote

missed the non movement. need to reevaluate ddd and muh. still solid on jvw.

[don_johnson]

^^ now that's funny!

i am going to reevaluate jvw as well at this point. i didn't realize his claim was straight from the "samples". i see i have a new message. checking now.

[don_johnson]

not from mod.

my guess is that there is an error. gunsmith does not exist in this game, so it may have possibly been in the samples due to the possibility of the role existing. this would depend on if mod assigned and chose roles randomly which is my guess. if we base speculation on the role pms, then we should also note the existence of a 3 player mafia team, which makes a serial killer less likely. a 3 player mafia squad with a confirmed roleblocker may offset two macho docs, a bulletproof vig, and a motion detector, but the possibility exists for one of muh/jvw to be scum, or scum power. i need to dwell on this set-up a bit. i would like more thoughts from ddd in this regard. if we ignore sample pms(which may make the most sense), then we could be faced with one of many combinations. there are scum powers that rival motion detectors. check back later.

[don_johnson]

Why do you think that a 3 man scum group in a 12 player game makes a sk less likely?

games i have been in with sk are usually 2 mafia/1 sk. either way, i don't believe sk exists in this set up.

why did you kill laim instead of me?

it was kind of a toss up. liam seemed much more determined for my lynch, which was the same behavior josh exhibited.

what made you think that jvw was obviously town?

Why don't you think that he is obviously town anymore?

i already answered the first question. at this point i am reevaluating. i thought you were the last scum. his evidence supports that you are not. his claim is more questionable given our recent discussion.

[don_johnson]

i was a serial killer in game from another site. two man mafia in that one. i was in a game on this site modded by juls which had two mafia and a roleblocking serial killer. also, mini 811. not sure why you are so insistent upon things like this. am i not entitled to my opinion? i have been on this site for over a year with 30 + completed games. i don't recall every game i have played. again, you seem to enjoy working off of grand assumptions. do you have any "in thread" evidence to suggest that i am scum?

howes about you ask the other players their opinions on the matter? then have them link to games that prove that their "opinions" are correct. your investigation here is unilateral.

to all: in your personal experience, in games(12 player) with an sk, is mafia more or less likely to be three or two man teams(one is a confirmed roleblocker)? is my previous statement of my opinion unreasonable?

i would also like mod confirmation of "motion detector".

also, adel, thanks for the link. internal struggle mafia is a game where i suffered confirmation bias with zachrulez, pushed a lynch on the town vig, and lost in lylo voting with my "gut". that game also contained a mafia "ninja" which i believe is a role that trumps motion detector. no sk there. more later.

[don_johnson]

I've heard others say that 2 mafia/1 SK is more common or better balanced, but I'm not sure where this belief comes from, but it's certainly repeated if not true.

^^ this.

adel: you are only looking at games i am in. not games i have read. you really seem to enjoy wasting everyones time. if you think i am sk then make a case. spamming the thread with links helps noone.

[don_johnson]

flaw in your plan which lets you win as scum is muh protecting adel. adel could be mafia ninja. muh needs to protect jvw. jvw watches me.

you should be lynched. you are the least confirmed vanilla.

adel: are you trying to be annoying? i don't link. i think i may have tried it once or twice, but its not how i roll.

vote: ddd

good call. but its not irrational. lynching me hurts our chances of winning. read internal struggle for reference. there is zero evidence of sk.

[don_johnson]

no. you are trying to get rid of town's only investigative role. thats what makes you the final scum.

adel: my vig kill was irrelevant at the time. the claim was a gambit. i got the idea when i played a game as a serial killer on the MDV forums. i was against a large town and a two man scum team. in what was effectively lylo i claimed sk and drew out the two scum. unfortunately, town wasn't smart enough to bargain and lynched me to lose(several first time players). it occurred to me that i could lay low, but i do tend to get myself in some sticky situations, and rather than claim at L-1 that i was bulletproof i decided to claim outright and in the process hopefully out scum. which i did.

muh and jvw: if you are both town then you should realize what ddd is trying to set up here. he is trying to remove town's only investigative role. the probability of jvw being scum is extremely low given the claims and flips. ddd knows that he is the key to our success and is riding adel's paranoia to set up an extremely winnable endgame for scum.

[don_johnson]

also, an investigative modifier could apply to "motion detector". protecting adel is foolish. you are scum.

[don_johnson]

Don, please tell me how JVW's investigative role would actually help this town at this point.

he can watch the guy who still has a bulletproof vest to confirm that he is town. he can watch the doc to make sure the doc is protecting him and not murdering someone else.

[don_johnson]

DJ: who is scum?

ddd.

[don_johnson]

maybe i am misunderstanding the role. rereading sample pm:

so, if jvw's target does not target a power role, then the result is "no motion"?

if that's the case, then adel is so far from confirmed that its not even funny.

semioldguy was killed, right? he was vanilla, right? so if adel killed him and jvw watched, this would return a result of "no motion", right?

so ddd saying that adel is "confirmed" is tremendously untrue, right?

so the guy trying to rid the town of a "useless" town power role to save a "confirmed" townie for lylo is claiming "vanilla". rrriiigghhht...

vote stays. what are your thoughts on that adel?

[don_johnson]

No, he can confirm that the guy with the bulletproof vest isn't targeting anyone that night. The possibility that you are a bulletproof SK who held fire still exists and as a bulletproof SK making a 1/1/1 LYLO basically means you win, which doesn't look good for how you're pushing so hard here.

and so we're not going to address the possibility of investigation modifiers? interesting focus.

And he cannot make sure the doc is doing anything, he can only target the doc and make sure the doc is targeting someone. The motion detector knows nothing about alignment, ability or target, just that player1 is targeting someone else with an ability.

he can make sure the doc is doing what he's supposed to do and not murdering anyone. but this is not what you state the motion detector does. please clarify this.

either jvw has a role similar to "tracker" or not. if he can only see power roles, then it makes perfect sense for the guy who claimed vanilla to want him dead.

[don_johnson]

So your theory is that we just had a mass claim and that optimal strategy is to assume that a pro-town player lied about their claim giving incomplete information. I revise my previous statement from box of hammers to bag of rocks. Or are you still assuming that Adel is a "mafia ninja" when that modifier doesn't exist in this game, per the semi-open setup. I revise bag of rocks to gallon of milk.

no. you're missing the point. accusing player a of being sk without any plausible evidence is as useful as accusing player b of having an "investigation modifier". they are both "equally" silly. yet you choose one over the other. the one you choose castrates town if you are wrong by lynching a bulletproof player who has done an excellent job uncovering the scum team.

He does not have a role similar to a tracker, JVW's alleged role shows ONLY if players1 uses ability x to target player2, it does not tell JVW what the ability was, it does not tell him who he targeted it only says "Yes - player 1 targets someone with something" or "No - player 1 did not target anyone".

yes. so he can, in fact, target either myself or muh and make sure we are doing what we should be. the point is moot if you are lynched because you are the final scum. your ad hom proves that to me. i have played with you a few times now and you have never insulted me in such a way. if you were so confident you would be okay with your own lynch today because you are vanilla and you are basing your idea of lynching me off of mathematical calculations to give town a chance to win. why should you be kept alive instead of me?

1. why didn't you claim your kill when you claim bullet proof?

answered.

quote="adel"]2. why did you kill Liam instead of me right after you breadcrumbed killing me if ABR was town?[/quote]

it was liam's end of day comments which led me to use my shot. i have already answered this. i didn't breadcrumb killing you. i haven't breadcrumbed anything in this game. i actually considered holding the shot, but i felt that liam was a good target. i had him as town ealier. his switch seemed off.

3. If you thought that Liam was guilty why didn't you ever vote for him?

never had the chance. his scumminess came out at the end of the day when ABR was already set to be lynched.

4. why did you forget to claim that you have an Investigation Modifier?

i claimed what was in my pm. as far as i can tell i do not have an investigation modifier. if "gunsmith" was in the game then i would guess that the modifier would have been included in my pm. the mod will not reveal any more information to me.

5. If you thought liam was scummy, why didn't you ever voice suspicions of him in this thread?

again. didn't think he was scummy until the end of the day. no chance to "voice" suspicions.


no concrete reason to "eliminate" me here. ddd is trying to eviscerate town power to make his job easier. tack on his near non existence in thread until today and his recent ad hom and you have scum number three.

when are you going to admit that i am awesome?

[don_johnson]

voting someone he didn't want to lynch with an assertion for "massclaim" tomorrow. ABR still ran the chance of being scum, why set up a massclaim strategy in advance of a flip? suggesting is one thing. certainty is scummy. i also interpreted his questioning of me as sideways suspicion. not sure if thats a recognized term, but i use it to define when a player casts suspicion without backing it up. not always a scum tell, but is certainly situational.

[don_johnson]

We didn't have any "plausible evidence" in Amished Mafia that you were a Mafia Godfather either, but that wasn't a risk we were willing to take either.

you didn't lynch me. i was nk'd. its irrelevant. there is no parralel.

There is absolutely no evidence that anyone has any sort of modifiers to their abilities, if they're town there's no reason for them not to claim them, there is no "ninja" modifier and if they're scum then their primary ability is non-existant anyways.

you seem to deny the very real existence of possible "investigation modifiers". why?

There is however a distinct possibility that you are a SK, you can try and explain it away but the fact that your night actions and statements in the game don't align is extremely suspicious.

what doesn't align? how does one kill in three nights amount to evidence of sk?

Muh will show "motion" whether he is scum or not because of his claim. It might force you not to fire if you have that ability, but that still leaves the same paradox for the town. JVW's role has literally no use in terms of bringing new useful information to a three person LYLO.

false. jvw can win the game for town.

I have been uncomplimentary to you in the past, but you're right I've never been this mean. Because in previous games you just do your own thing regardless of whether it makes any sense but you could at least argue it's your own version of tactics, in this game you've blatently ignored the actual facts at hand.

disagree.

As to why I should be kept alive instead of you? Because there's no possibility that I have a third party win condition.

again. patently false. you may very well have fakeclaimed. also, your win condition doesn't need to be "third party" to endanger town.

By eliminating the a killing role and one that might have a third party role we make sure that this doesn't end up being LYLO (mislynch+two NKs) and we simplify the game drastically. By letting you live there exists a ~15-20% chance that you steal the win away from the town, by lynching you we put that percentage back into the town's advantage. It's time to stop debating this with you and move the game along because you're not bringing anything new or useful to the conversation.

disagree.

[don_johnson]

Let's count the assumptions you have to make for your theory to be credible.

You have to assume JVW is town. You have to assume that JVW told the general truth about his role BUT then lied about the specifics despite doing so being completely sub-optimal play in a mass claim situation AND despite the fact that Adel had been harping on getting you to claim every little last bit of your role.

There is no reason to make any of those assumptions on their own, let alone to string them together.

this makes no sense to me. what are you talking about? do you think jvw is scum? the first two assumptionis go hand in hand. why would you separate them? are you trying to make your points look larger and more impressive? how would he have told the truth but "lied" about specifics? an investigation modifier according to the sample pms is a passive ability that any player can have. how is his claim "sub-optimal"?

Let's see there was a mafia roleblocker, a dead macho doc and another claimed macho doc. Plenty of roles that would stop one or more kills from going through and that ignores the option of not firing to hide your presence. Considering you have claimed a killing role it's certainly viable that you are a SK instead of a Vig.

viable, but not likely as you rourself earlier stated. what's the probability? 25%? how does my lynch improve the odds for a town win as opposed to a no lynch?

Bullshit, I've torn apart this claim at every turn and you just keep saying it regardless to the fact that it's not true. You have yet to lay out a scenario which accounts for every credible scenario where merely keeping JVW alive can give the town an auto-win.

there is no "auto-win". you are pushing a fallacy.

Conceded, I "could" be a survivor or something else ridiculous. But since you've claimed one of the two N3 NKs and that makes no sense as mafia which means you're either pro-town or third party which means that any other threat to the town is almost certainly mafia.

yes. you are mafia. that much is obvious.

What an astute analysis.

ad hom.

here you go:

explain how i win as sk in the next two hypotheticals:

1) you are lynched and flip scum.

2) you are lynched and flip town.

if i am sk, i can't win. therefore it makes no sense to lynch me regardless. my hands are tied in every direction if what you are implying(even though you claim to not believe it) is true. i have found two scum. you are most likely number three. the idea of a fourth scum is farfetched. what benefit do i have as sk to push the lynch of the third scum? if you choose to 180 and believe i am sk, then who is the third scum(both you and adel have implied one exists regardless of my role)?

*this just in: don_johnson is kicking scum ass*

[don_johnson]

two macho docs doesn't seem unbalanced. we don't know what kind of role scum has left.

at this point, an iso of ddd reveals a similar lyman vote to muh's. i.e. hopping the large wagon towards deadline. i'd like to reread his vote in the context of the thread, but his iso shows him pushing nothing very hard except his initial torquez case(which is imo no better than a random or policy case), and my case today. i again refer you to 829 where i ignored evidence and voted on gut. poor decision.

i think our best course of action is to lynch the player most likely to flip scum based on evidence. barring an investigation modifier adel is most likely clear. barring serial killer i am most likely clear. your own evidence corroborates those situations. muh's claim is questionable, but not overly so imo.

in the event of a mislynch you have two options. watch me, watch muh. if you die, muh is scum. if not, you have a good chance of figuring this out, no? in the event of a scum flip, the game should end. the only way it wouldn't is if i am sk or there is a four player scum team. both more unlikely given the evidence.

it seems regardless of how you feel, we are set up to win. better to have muh around than not during night phase. i would like more thoughts from adel before a hammer.

[don_johnson]

adel: do you believe ddd is 100% town? if not, why have you avoided questioning him?

ddd: in your own words, why is an investigation modifier "unlikely" as opposed to a "serial killer" with no evidence?

[don_johnson]

you could ask the same question about muh and jvw, neither of whom I believe to be 100% town, and whom I haven't been questioning either.

disagree. you have been suspicious of everyone except ddd.

Perhaps a more direct question would've been to ask why I've been questioning you so much, which has a very simple answer: I think that DJ is the most likey to be scum.

i cannot be scum. i killed liam. that makes zero sense.

the point of my question is that both you and ddd are buddying to each other and neither of you is questioning it. what strikes me as odd is that ddd is normally a logical player. not questioning your sheepishness does not fit his character, especially when your logic and arguments are so blatantly fail.

whats more unimpressive is that the usually logical ddd is also trying to push the lynch of someone he "thinks" is town by using fear-mongering and terrible math. even if you venture into the hypothetical realm of me actually being serial killer, it is scum who poses much more of a threat to a town win than sk. do you realize the odds of a serial killer win? have you iso'd me at all to correlate my early claim with my actual role claim? fear of losing to an sk is a poor reason to lynch the best scumhunter.

you yourself have fought the idea of a 2 scum/1 sk set up. by your own logic, there is another scum regardless of what you honestly believe me to be. in that situation it makes the least sense to lynch a possible sk. especially if that player has singlehandedly neutered the scum team.

sk or bulletproof vig. both pose the most risk to the scum win condition. therefore it is in scums best interest to lynch them before lylo.

if you think i am sk, then you should be more suspicious of muh and/or jvw given your virtual handholding with ddd from the moment you replaced in.

even if you convince yourself that i am third party killer(to which there is zero evidence) it is more logical to find and lynch scum. ddd knows this, and yet he pursued my lynch. when called on it, he backed off. when you voiced continued support he acquiesced to the "possibility". he's playing you for a fool. he is the last scum.

if i am sk, there is near zero chance of me winning. claiming early would have been a "testicles the size of coconuts" type gambit. and scum will always be intent on removing sk from the game. hence, either way you view me: ddd is(or should be) obvscum.

please dredge up one solid case ddd has put together this game. go ahead and iso him. his votes are all ridiculous. now he's pushing a lynch on a bulletproof vig(with a scum killshot, no less) based off of faulty probability ratios and irrational fears.

[don_johnson]

you are truly useless. are you now arguing the existence of a four player scum team?

congratulations on finding another piece of evidence from outside this game thread to bolster your case. for someone so intent on building a "meta" case you seem to be completely content

not

investigating anyone else.

your ignorance of physical in thread evidence is noted. you have not produced a single piece of evidence from this game that implicates me as scum and cherry picking comments from other games is called using quotes out of context. if you

really

looked at my meta you would notice that i play every game different.

whatever. its out of my hands at this point. ddd lynch should end the game unless you are scum number four. that much is becoming painfully obvious.

[don_johnson]

also. in response to your ebwop. reread my original claim. i clearly explained what my role was and that there may be other facets i was not divulging. also, if you think i am scum or sk, then my role pm would also supposedly contain a passive investigation modifier in regards to carrying a gun. if i were fakeclaiming i would be stupid not to include that. it being included in the sample pm is most likely a mod error and should be null tell at best.

[don_johnson]

Actually, you just brought up the possible existence of a 4 man scum team for the fist time in this game.... and now you are attempting to pair me with DDD... interesting.

hmm. you are correct. i misread your earlier post. you think i am scum and someone else is sk, or i am sk and someone else is scum. interesting theory.

Why aren't you suspicious of muh believing your claim and choosing to protect you N1 when bulletproof townies don't need doctor protection?

there is no evidence of him being scum at this point.

I noticed that in your first post following your "bulletproof" claim you appealed to information from outside of this game:
yet every attempt I've made to check that out has been met with resistance and hostility from you.

way to take another quote out of context. i haven't discouraged you from reading up on me, just from drawing dumb ass conclusions from what you are reading. have you read 829? the one i have referred to now twice after your link refreshed my memory of said game? did you happen to read where we lynched the town vig?

[don_johnson]

That kind of discrepancy in night choices (almost as scummy as you saying that I am 100% scum if ABR is town, and then killing Liam for no apparent reason) IS evidence of scumminess.

i killed liam with reason. i get what you are saying about the claim, but if muh is scum then he has to kill jvw tonight. muh cannot win if he is scum. i don't think he would have painted himself into that corner, and if he had, he would most likely be trying to get rid of the bulletproof vig/sk. i think he is mislynch fodder. you were tracked and were reported as not targeting anyone on the night of two kills. jvw claims he is the tracker. logically, ddd is most likely scum. please iso him. it is an interesting read.

if ddd is town, lylo will be heavily town favored as there are limited options as to who would be the remaining scum. my theory has proven correct all game. scum most likely wants to kill me for the same reason ddd suggests that town should. fun fact here is that i am not third party and their desire to take me out has been their downfall. that was a large part of my decision to claim. and if i am alive in lylo it will be 100% town victory because scum will have to come after me. tbh, i don't think we're going. ddd is most likely scum. if i'm wrong, there's always tomorrow. only way there wouldn't be a tomorrow is if we're looking at a four player scum team. if jvw and i were scum together then he would have already hammered for the win. if muh and i are scum together then you are implying a four player scum team with a confirmed roleblocker against a town with a macho doc and a motion detector. unbalanced. if ddd flips scum and the game continues, then it would also make sense to analyze the existence of a serial killer, but if i am sk, town has two power roles left to figure it out(unless you want to speculate on the existence of a four man mafia and an sk). your paranoia is playing into the hands of a scum win.

ddd is the most logical lynch based on our in thread evidence.

[don_johnson]

you call it "weasel room", i call it "smart town play". have you ever been in a game with an early "miller" claim? the more you imply you are capable of, the more scum fear you. the more they fear you, the easier they are to spot. and no, quoting an "entire" post does not put it in context. you implied that i was against you reading my meta. that is simply not true. what i am against is you making idiotic conclusions based on your cherry picking.

[don_johnson]

which posts did Liam express fear of you in?

his late switch to a town wagon and his "sideways" comment about me. he seemed to be setting up his run for the next day while knowingly lynching a townie.

[don_johnson]

very easy to find, bro. his last few iso posts before i shot him. 496 is entirely hypocritical.

[don_johnson]

adel: its called... thinking. its a dynamic process. there was no immediate revelation. i mentioned earlier that i had considered holding the kill. further thinking on the subject occurred and i made my decision.

[don_johnson]

you have officially left the land of the logical. werewolves? maybe theres a flying pumpkin who shoots lasers out of his ass. what else can we think of? you seem to be embracing any theory, no matter how farfetched, that doesn't involve a ddd lynch.

[don_johnson]

Also, DJ please explain why you accept that a docotor who believed you to be the least scummy person on day 1 would choose to protect you with a doctor protection after you claimed to be bulletproof.

he claimed to have forgotten(or not noticed) that i claimed bulletproof. players make mistakes. that is why lynches are better decided according to evidence instead of assumptions. his explanation was not unreasonable and if he is scum he is in a nigh unwinnable situation. ddd is a better lynch.

i already explained my thinking in the liam kill. i cited the post which stood out to me and yet you quote several and ask me to choose. i'm really done with you. if you have any questions that i haven't answered feel free to ask them, but at this point you seem to be employing a "nuh uh" type strategy.

what is your interest in protecting ddd?

[don_johnson]

inactivity isn't the ddd case. the case is process of elimination due to in thread evidence. muh is number two.

have you iso'd ddd? you seemed to ignore my earlier request for you to produce a case built by ddd that held water. maybe you didn't see it, but my iso of ddd revealed no strong convictions at any point in the game besides his push of a random day 1 bandwagon until he wanted my lynch.

496 is hypocritical. calling me out for thinking your vote is scummy when you and i are voting the same player. ignoring that my reason for thinking you to be scummy was not your vote, but your reasoning behind your vote. then voting said player himself with an implication of "massclaim" for the following day. had ABR flipped scum, what need would there have been for a massclaim? hindsight is 20/20 my friend. i digested the thread before i made my decision to shoot. the way liam ended the day led me to believe he was scum.

i understand what you are saying. i am just not willing to work off of grand assumptions. the evidence doesn't point to anyone else.

[don_johnson]

now you are arguing what is effectively semantics. casting suspicion on the "nk immune" player is showing fear imo. there is no "inconsistency".

lurking is a term that can be attributed to ddd's play. its not why i'm voting him. another quote out of context from adel. you are wonderfully consistent in your terribleness.

bull.

perfect example of the "nuh uh" defense. you don't believe me. no matter what i say, you are not going to believe me. all you are doing at this point is spamming the thread with your opinion over and over.

[don_johnson]

interesting. unfortunately, i can't be scum. go ahead and cling tight to your wonderful semantics argument. i guess pointing out liam's slip of knowledge that ABR was town while attempting to implicate me as scum is me being "unableto point out any evidence." you are so brilliant it hurts.

[don_johnson]

semantics. you asked me to explain. i did. no different than if someone said, "hey, look at that thing over there!" and you said, "what thing?" and they said "that thing that looks like a bicycle," and you said "what thing that looks like a bicycle?" and they said "that thing right there with two wheels and pedals," and you said "thats not a bicycle, thats a two wheeled transportation device" and they said," yeah, a bicycle," and you said, "no its a two wheeled transportation device."

congratulations.

[don_johnson]

its what i've been doing. you are tunneled. it happens. accusing you of arguing semantics when that is what you are doing should not be considered "insulting", but whatever. jvw seems to have the deciding vote today.

[don_johnson]

you don't believe me. no matter what i say, you are not going to believe me.

you siad that you killed him because he feared you. You can not point at a post where he expressed fear of you.

You lied and got caught. Die now please.

actually, i used the phrase "same reason as josh" in conjunction with the aforementioned term. josh lyman went for the bulletproof lynch right out of the starter gate. CML implied suspicion of the bulletproof while hammering someone he seemed to think was town. you are arguing:

SEMANTICS. you are interpreting a phrase in a particular way when it can easily be interpreted in other ways. you also choose to isolate the part of the post which suits your needs. you also fail to explain how i am scum with liam and josh, and you also fail to explain how my lynch helps town if i am not scum with liam and josh. your posts are fail. plain and simple. again, please stop spamming the thread. we need input from jvw and ddd. it is not up to you or i who gets lynched today. their input may be necessary if we don't get this right today.

[don_johnson]

i figured a two player scum team. i killed liam because i thought he might be cop. it was my fear of him which drove my bloodlust, and if i had thought before i claimed i might have been able to come off more believable. good pick up by Adel. my only hope was to pass it off as a "semantics" argument. not sure what i was expecting from my gambit, but i love playing sk because you really have nothing to lose. the odds of winning are slim, so you can play around. i figured an early claim would not only draw out scum, but perhaps buy town cred to actually avoid an investigation. i didn't want to lynch Josh even thought i knew right away he was scum. but when jvw picked it up i felt i had to back up my "gambit". anyhow, good game town.

well modded and balanced. some people complain about two player scum teams, but i have never minded. you play with the hand your dealt. glad i didn't piss you off with my gambiting.

[don_johnson]

I think my theory regarding DJ was right (that you've got to lynch the claimed killer in that scenario to prevent a possible Mexican Standoff and to possibly the win game as it did here), but I wasn't getting anywhere with my arguments and frankly I trusted Don to put his foot in his mouth enough that it was the smarter play to just shut up and let Don get himself killed.

a) if you read 829 you will see how your theory can backfire. granted i agree with you in most cases, i have come to believe that lynches should always be based on "evidence"(except of course on day1).

b) i made only one critical error here. if not for adel's persistence i may have actually pulled out a win, so the "foot in mouth" comment i find quite offensive. had there been another mafioso, you made yourself ripe for the lylo mislynch by dissappearing until the hammer. sk is quite possibly the most difficult win condition in all of mafia. but whatever.